← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Colin King is breaking out of the 'beige box.' Plus: What's behind the British design invasion?
01:03:08
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, stylist and author Colin King joins the show to talk about slowing down, starting a Substack, and breaking out of the 'beige box' the industry put him in.
Loading summary
Transcript99 lines
- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Colin King about his new substack. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including the history of the Shelter magazine, a British design invasion, and how a warehouse fire is impacting Brooklyn's artisan community. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nickelhouse. Hi, Fred.
- [00:33]
B
Hey, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:34]
A
Great. We're not together in person this time, sadly. Right.
- [00:38]
B
I know. Back to our digital hovels. It's funny, last week we were talking about how, you know, this space we were in isn't totally soundproof, making it seem as though our own environments are soundproof. There's actually a siren going by right now. Probably some dogs are going to start barking. But it was certainly fun to be in person. And I'm sad you're actually. We're not even in the same zip code or state. You're in Hotlanta right now.
- [01:02]
A
Exactly. I'm in Hopping Atlanta, where every designer I meet tells me how busy they are. So this is where it's happening.
- [01:09]
B
Well, let's quickly look back on Monday's episode of Conversation with Sarah Spiteri, the global brand director of both Homes and Gardens and Living, et cetera. Quite a title.
- [01:19]
A
Quite a title. And I was so glad to finally speak with her. She's got a lot of different initiatives going on, and it was a really interesting conversation about how she has worked to revitalize those publications and has a huge audience in the US And a lot of good work that she's doing within the design community. What did you think?
- [01:43]
B
Yeah, I think this will be relevant later on in the episode, so stick around. But I was blown away to hear that 70% of the digital audience of Homes and Gardens is from the U.S. i mean, it's crazy to think about that. I mean, I know that we like British design here in the states, but 70% was kind of blew my mind. I also love how she talked about AI. You know, it's just. I don't know. I think it's. We can easily kind of lull ourselves into the sleep of AI. Doesn't really matter or it's going to take everything over. I think it's really nice to talk to people like Emily Henderson and Sarah who are, you know, realizing like, okay, AI is going to do a certain kind of article just as well as we can do it, so we have to do something else. Like, we need personality. We need, you know, uniqueness and individuality. And I think that like you really see both Sarah and Emily talking about how they're reacting to that in their business. It's obviously more relevant for media than it is for designers. But I think a good listen for anyone who's wondering like, hey, does AI really matter like to these people? Yes, it does and they're doing something about it. So it's cool to hear that.
- [02:42]
A
It's a great point. And Sarah was also very keen and I think Emily was trying to talk this way too about let's not frame it as this media decline, but it's this transformation that's going on.
- [02:55]
B
Right. Let's frame it as a media going to lower floor of the building.
- [03:01]
A
I mean, it's closer to the street now down here, right? There's a balcony. Yeah. I mean, so I think, I think the British publications are doing everything they can to stay vibrant and I think the response from the American market is pretty huge and I think telling and it makes me think what are they not getting from other publications here in the States that they're getting a fill for from the British Max. So well done Sarah and I hope people enjoy that conversation. She's an interesting one. We're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Serena and Lily. Serena and Lily's trade program offers designers exclusive access to their high quality collections, including customers owned material, custom size upholstery and a dedicated support team for seamless end to end collaboration. Other trade member benefits include best pricing, fast complimentary swatches, competitive lead times and extended returns throughout the year. Serena and Lily's trade members receive additional discounts and free white glove delivery offers on their Benchmade furniture and decor. Visit serenandlily.com the Thursday show to become a member today. This podcast is sponsored by Hartman and Forbes, a founder led house nearing three decades of creating hand woven natural window coverings for the world's most discerning designers. Each bespoke shade is woven to size using carefully selected natural fibers, bringing the exquisite beauty of nature indoors. Their collection also spans textured wall coverings and heritage Belgian linens, all crafted to transform interiors into spaces of Sanctuary. Visit hartmanforbes.com to learn more and locate your nearest luxury showroom. And we're back. Sadly, Fred, we have to start with a fire in Brooklyn.
- [05:15]
B
Yeah, kind of a sad note to start the show on, but last Wednesday, dozens of artist workshops and furniture showrooms were destroyed after a 5 alarm fire tore through A warehouse space in Red Hook, Brooklyn. Collapsing of the building's roof and its top floor. It's very sad story. A lot of people we know here in the industry here in New York.
- [05:32]
A
Exactly. It's such a sad story. And it all seemed to happen so quickly. We started learning about various companies that we like so much. And you were in the New York Design Center. I was, too. When we heard about De La Vega being impacted by this, I think you actually went and spent some time with Mark.
- [05:50]
B
Yeah, it was kind of crazy. You know, this fire happened Wednesday night, of course, the big market event at 200 Lexington here in New York. What's New? What's Next was on Thursday. And I think people just started hearing about it in the building on Thursday. I heard about in the afternoon. And of course, Mark De la Vega, you know, this great furniture designer, has a showroom in the building. So I went up and said, mark, like, what's going on? And, you know, everyone was. Everyone was drinking and looking at these, you know, horrible videos of this crazy fire. And it did. I'm pretty confident it did just destroy his production facility in Brooklyn. And he was remarkably philosophical about it and, you know, optimistic that there would be, you know, there's things to do about it. But, you know, there were so many of these Brooklyn makers who were in that building. You know, you mentioned De La Vega. There's Token, ladies and gentlemen. Studio, a particularly cool group, Lenoba Design, lost 900 pieces of furniture. I mean, it really was devastating. This is such a hub in Brooklyn. And so it was, you know, I don't know, it was kind of shocking to have this really celebratory day at what's New, what's Next? Sort of end with this realization that, oh, my gosh, there was this horrible fire.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah, horrible fire. And unfortunately, there aren't very many spaces like this warehouse facility where they were. So, I mean, it certainly seems it's going to be a challenge relocating for everyone. And I know that De La Vega has set up a GoFundMe account, and I hope people will support that. I saw some other people set up GoFundMe accounts. I'm sure you can find all these brands on Instagram and elsewhere to help support them.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah, we'll include some links to some GoFundMes in the show notes. De La Vega has one, Token has one. I think there are ones that are just set up, generally speaking, for these artisans to try and move on to the next step. I'm sure a lot of them had insurance, but Even if you have insurance, it takes a long time for it to pay out. You know, meanwhile, they've lost. You know, they lose. It's not just you lose. Your product is lose, your computer is lose, you know, all the stuff that you have in an office. And, you know, as you pointed out, you know, this is maybe kind of a pet issue because I have been a struggling creative in Brooklyn, but it is very, very hard to find space here in New York City. Hard to find space, you know, where you can build things. And I think that it's kind of. There's no solution to this. Exactly. I think everyone wants to live in New York City. So rent is exp. But whenever you find this little hub of artisans who have kind of made it work, it really feels like something very special and rare and almost like they've made it work against all the odds. And so it's really sad to lose a space like this. I'm sure these people are resilient. They'll figure it out. But in the meantime, I'm hopeful that everyone can support their work to get them through this and find the next special space. Because looking at those pictures, it did not seem like this building, I think, is likely to be condemned or no one's gonna be able to get back in and get their furniture out in a week or so. This is finding new space.
- [08:38]
A
No, absolutely. This is not a quick repair. Sadly, we're wishing them all the best and. And I hope people will contribute and support and. And we certainly send, especially, as you say, Mark de la Vega and his and his wife. We've spent a lot of time there, and we're big fans, so wishing everyone there the best. Next up, Fred, we're going to talk about showrooms. We have a few different showroom related items to cover this week. The Laguna Design center is changing hands. Two brands recently debuted new spaces in 200 Lex, and I'm here in Adax. So let's start with. Where do you.
- [09:10]
B
Well, let's start with what's new, what's next in 200 Lexington? Since we were just there recording live and in person a week ago, how did you feel about what's new, what's next? How did it go for you? It felt very positive for me. I mean, it always does, but it felt very buzzy.
- [09:25]
A
It did. It felt like there were great crowds. I felt like there were new showrooms. There was great energy. And oh, my goodness, that panel that we were on together, Fred, that was.
- [09:35]
B
That's what this is about. Getting it back to the panel.
- [09:38]
A
Hold the phone. I mean, the crowds going out into the hallway, plus Alexa Hamp and schooled us on tariffs. You know, tariffs are just a fact, Fred, it turns out. Who knew? So why were we spending so much time fretting about them? But no, I thought that was a great energy and I thought people were really. People are always happy to get back together in September at what's New, what's Next. It's always the back to school event of sorts for the industry. And it certainly felt high energy this year.
- [10:05]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think we should disclose that, you know, Business of Home does have an office in 200 Lexington at the New York Design Center. And, you know, we're friends with Jim Druckmann, the, you know, the, the man who, the avuncular man who runs and owns the building. So to some degree we're a little bit biased here. But I, I do feel like there has been this ongoing story in New York about, oh, 200 lux is really picking up steam. It's one of these things that sort of happened in slow motion. I think that Jim, you know, was sort of willing it into existence. Like we got a lot of fabric brands here and designers are really excited. And you know, I think that that has been true for a while, but I feel like it, it really has become a very buzzy building. They've got Schumacher, they got Kravitz. You know, two of the most recent showrooms that just opened up there are Pookie, the portable lighting brand, and Thiebaud, another fabric house. So I do think that there's a lot of momentum at 200 Lex. And I know again, we're a little bit biased, but I do hear it from designers that they're excited to be in the building and excited to have a building that feels, I don't. Just kind of upbeat and a happy place to be here in New York. Do you hear the same?
- [11:07]
A
I do. And interestingly here in Atlanta, so many people mentioned the fact that 200 Lex has so many more fabric showrooms now, which was always part of Jim's long term plan. If he could just get the fabric companies there, everything else would fall into place. And everybody has noticed that that is happening and has happened. And I think people can really see the dramatic difference and the contrast with some of the other design centers around the country. It's interesting, but it's also interesting because Jim himself as a landlord comes up you every design center, do they talk about the landlord or the presence or the people around. And I think that makes a huge difference as well.
- [11:51]
B
Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I think there's just, like, a lot of good things going on, and, you know, I mean, it's tough. I think overall, design centers are still kind of in a weird moment. I do think there are people who wonder, well, what is this really for? Certainly, even at 200 lux, where the vibe is very good, it's not like, you know, the halls are crammed with people on any given Tuesday. I think that, you know, foot traffic is. You know, it's not like it maybe used to be in the 70s or 80s. But I do think that given those limitations and the confusion around design centers in general, like, you know, there's good energy there. But you. You're actually in Atlanta specifically to give a talk at adac, the design center in Atlanta. What's it feel like there? What's the vibe on the. On the floors of adac?
- [12:33]
A
Well, it's interesting because everywhere I went in adac, I asked people, so what. What is it about ADAC that makes it feel vibrant, that gives it this energy? One of the interesting things. So they've got a. They've got a great marketing team, and they. And they work lots of events, and they're very involved from that perspective. But there's also this element that there are a lot of designers who office out of ADAC. Somebody told me earlier today that there are 40 design firms that are present in the building now. So that's a meaningful amount of people. And interestingly, several showrooms said, you know, these people didn't used to be our customers. And then they moved into the building, and they just kind of come downstairs or they come across the hall, and now they're kind of showing up all the time. And so, you know, we talk so often about the challenges for design centers. And, like, when you talk about the pdc, for example, people always complain about the parking or it's hard to get to, or it's far away. And when so many designers are so close by, suddenly it changes the dynamic quite a bit. So I think there's a much greater presence in the design center here. And I think, listen, it's an old space, so it's not like it has advantages from a real estate perspective. I really do think it's the community that really makes an impact for adac.
- [13:52]
B
Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I also think, you know, to be fair, ADAC also benefits from the fact that Atlanta really is like the big game in town when it comes to the Southeast It's a huge, you know, region for interior designers. There's a lot of business there that may be changing. You know, there's the new design district they're trying to build up in South Carolina to maybe. I don't know if it's to compete, but it's to give designers and rally a little bit of a closer option. But I think ADAC benefits from that. I think there's no question about that. But the community thing is great. I mean, designers working in design centers makes all the sense in the world. If it can make sense for the landlords, everyone should be doing that. What's better than having your customers in the building? What's better than having your sources in the building? Likewise. So I think that kind of thing is all to the good.
- [14:34]
A
I was having an interesting conversation with Dan Cahoon from Jerry Pear earlier who was talking to me about how he's trying to be creative and come up with lots, lots of sort of quick pop up showrooms around the country and have people show up with some furniture and some fabric and kind of get a taste for some things without having to have a full on showroom in markets. I think that speaks to people want you to show up somewhere. But it's challenging to always sort of have to take on the rents and all of the cost structure that goes along with fully committing to a design center. So I think this is a time where people are getting really creative about it. I know we're going to talk about this Laguna Design center and if there's a message in there about the future of design centers, I'm not sure.
- [15:23]
B
Let's go to Laguna for the future of design centers. Yeah, I mean, Laguna Design center, the news there is that they've reached a deal for this company, Pintar Investment Company to acquire it from the current owners, which is Dunhill Partners. And we should say Dunhill is the owner of the Dall Design Center. So I don't know if there's a ton to read into this story to be, to be honest. You know, Laguna Design Center, I've actually never been to it. I was talking with a few designers today about, you know, their experience with it. I think it's, you know, LA is so spread out, right? You know, it's, it's, it's so difficult to know exactly where you should be shopping. It's, even if you're in LA proper, there's lots of choices. So I think for people who live in that little hub, you know, the convenience of it is really what they they like the Laguna Design center for. But I suspect, you know they, they, they had perch that that big kitchen and bath chain that went spec bankrupt maybe last year or the year before. I'm not sure if that space has been filled. I don't know that it's packed to the gills and bringing in more tenants. So maybe Dunhill Partners, who mostly has properties in Texas and Oklahoma thought okay, well maybe somebody else can take a swing at this. I will say that Pintar, the investment company said something about. I think the exact quote is that they want to open it up to a broader mix of uses including food and beverage offerings and daily needs retailers. Was what was in the statement. I don't know if that means kind of edging out the design showrooms. I know Thomas Lavin has a showroom there. So maybe this is kind of like a slow transition away from the design center business. Yeah, I don't know. What was your read on this little tidbit of news?
- [16:54]
A
I mean it sounded like it was a meaningful space for some but I think again, so many of these design centers are being reconsidered. How much of them can be daily use retail locations? I think that's a good way to describe it.
- [17:14]
B
Is that like a bodega or something? What is a daily need retailer?
- [17:18]
A
I mean I think people were saying look at the model that they tried to do with the Boston Design center and perhaps how Jamestown is thinking about the Dakota. Can we keep some design related. Can we keep some, some businesses like Waterworks or brands that feel like the people are going to be it's a real destination and maybe crosses consumer and trade in a way that can be a ground floor location and then fill the back of the house with other businesses and support it. We'll see. I mean I think a lot of these design center spaces are going to have to evolve in some way. Something's going to have to change there and we'll, we'll see.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah, I mean maybe it's actually a good thing. I mean if I don't. Again, I don't know what a daily needs retailer is. If it's a wall, if it's a Walgreens, I think that's bad for design centers. But I think if you put in like a cool, you know, you put in a hot restaurant in there, you get some other kinds of stores that people are excited and something that feels elevated. I think that's actually a win for the brands that are there and a win for designers because it's like you want to take your client there, you get a, you know, get a glass of wine and, you know, suddenly it's fun as opposed to, you know, maybe wandering through a somewhat empty space. I do think, you know, maybe the future of Design Centers is that there'll be more mixed use, especially in markets that are a little bit smaller, like, you know, Laguna. So I don't know if this is a sign of things to come, but we'll certainly keep an eye on it, and when we know more, you'll know more.
- [18:39]
A
So let's move on and talk about the British Design invasion, Fred, shall we?
- [18:44]
B
It's been. Sorry. This week, producer Caroline Burke. How many people got that reference? This week, producer Caroline Burke wrote about several new events bringing together American designers and British brands. The British are coming, Dennis, and I think you're probably happy about that. You're at least 10% British, right?
- [19:01]
A
I'm, I'm a huge percent British and, and, and a big fan. So I am happy about it. And I, I feel like I've been talking to so many British brands that want to come and, and have a meaningful presence here in the US For a host of reasons. Right.
- [19:17]
B
Yeah, there's, there's a bunch of different reasons here. Caroline's piece really kind of nicely breaks down all of these. You know, there's. It's funny, Caitlin, the editor in chief of business development, is actually in London right now. She's doing one of the design social events there. So we're going there too. It's not just them coming over here, but there's a bunch of different exhibits of, you know, British design brands. We've, you know, even we mentioned Pookie earlier. They're an example of a British brand, you know, making a splash in the US there's lots of examples like that. I think the question I kind of want to get into is like, why? Why is this happening? I think, you know, there's always been a connection between the US And England. And I'm just curious, like, what a. What are the big reasons? And I sort of feel like there's two buckets. For me, the first one is the aesthetic thing, because I think we're kind of coming out of this era in the design industry where there's been a lot of white boucle, as we've talked about on the show. There's been a lot of quiet luxury minimalism, a lot of tans and pared down looks. And I feel like people do want these layers, they do want these colors, and I feel like they've pretty much Got it down over there across the pond. And maybe this is just sort of about the turnover in aesthetics. What do you think of that thesis?
- [20:24]
A
So I think there's a lot to that. Interestingly, I had the world renowned architect Bobby McAlpin on my panel earlier today and we were talking about the beige aesthetic. And he actually feels like the beige aesthetic was somewhat medicinal for people, that it was sort of helping people get through a difficult time. And so he said from that perspective, you can understand it. And we're starting to heal and we're coming out a little bit and 10ccs.
- [20:55]
B
Of beige and call me in the morning.
- [20:57]
A
And so the beige has really helped and it's helped to restore. But now I think people are longing for something a little warmer. Maybe it's a little bit more colorful. I also think that Covid had a huge impact on what people discovered about how they live and what they were living with. And I think again, talking about these British magazines, you look through the pages of these British shelter publications and they look so warm and cozy and the rooms just look a little bit more lived in and real in a way that I think appealed to people. So interestingly, Sarah Spiteri referenced this fact that the rooms in a lot of the British publications, they don't look as perfect or quite as showroom like as sometimes the images in some of the American publications or just the images that we see a lot on Instagram, like look. And I think that felt appealing to people who wanted something that was just a little warmer, maybe a little bit more personal.
- [22:04]
B
It's time to rip the ivory boucle band aid off. Yes, yes, please. I think that's all accurate and I think that's probably just a little bit of the changing of the guard. And there's something to that too. I also think, and this is the business of Home podcast, there kind of is a money angle here too. And I think it's a couple things. I mean, one is that England and Europe's economy has not exactly been taking off like a rocket over the past five years or so. Brexit has been kind of confusing and muddled for them. And just in general, it hasn't been a time of rocket growth there. But even in general, there's limited number of designers in Europe and the uk. There's a limited number of people who actually use designers. It's a smaller percentage of the population than it is here in the us it's also really difficult to expand into Europe. And even though we're much farther away, I think It's a lot simpler for a lot of these brands to come here. You can speak English, you know, there's less red tape. You have, how many millionaires are there in America? It's 24 million or some crazy number like that. So there's just a lot of business here. And I think in some ways it's simpler for UK brands to give it a go than it is going the other direction. That's always been the case, I think.
- [23:11]
A
No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think there are a lot of challenges in Britain right now. Taxes are very high. The non dom or the non doms, they pay, you know, the non dom's issue.
- [23:26]
B
Explain what, Explain the non dom's thing. Because that's the sort of newsy angle here.
- [23:30]
A
Yeah, I mean, so they've changed the sort of tax free status for people who want to live in Britain but are actually from another country. It was a haven for a lot of people to buy real estate in London and park a lot of money there and they didn't have to pay taxes. And that has changed and unfortunately that is having a meaningful impact. The non dom issue, which I kept thinking was a champagne reference and I thought people were gonna be serving me at any moment, I'm like, no, I'm absolutely not non dom. I'm all for dom, bring the dom, please. But it really is on the. It really is top of mind for people in Britain because foreigners have played a huge role in the growth of Britain in the last 25 years. And it's just again, it was a good investment and a place for a lot of money to move. And now sadly, sadly that money is moving elsewhere where it is treated better. And a lot of these companies that are British based are finding that they don't want Britain to be their number one market. Lisa from Sanderson just often talks about, I don't want Sanderson's number one market to be Britain, I want it to be America and let's get focused on that. And a lot of companies are feeling that way. And as you were saying earlier, the houses are bigger, the projects are bigger, people embrace interior design in a much warmer and more friendly way here in the US and so all those forces are contributing to it.
- [25:00]
B
Yeah, I agree. And it's funny because Caroline spoke to people about the non dom issue for the piece and they kind of downplayed it. But I think just over time that's going to play a role. Also the tariff situation with the UK and there comes the T word, but I'M going to say it. It's only for the.
- [25:15]
A
You had to ruin the show, didn't you? We were going tariff free for so long.
- [25:18]
B
Apologize. It's obviously, it's 10%, which, you know, is higher than people want to pay, but a lot lower than a lot of other countries. And so I think people sort of feel like, well, we know what the cost is going to be of the tariffs. And so we'll, you know, we'll just fold that in and we'll keep, keep growing in the U.S. no harm, no foul. So I agree. And you know, you were mentioning just before we started recording that some of these. Cox, London is doing a lot of business here in the US There's a lot of companies that have, have made a significant imprint, and I think we're only going to see more of them in the years ahead. So it's a good time to be a British brand in America, and I think it's probably a good time for American designers to shop with them and check them out.
- [25:53]
A
Moving on, we're gonna talk about shelter magazines for Dwell. Last week, Angela Serratore took a look at the rise of the American shelter magazine. And it was interesting to learn about the term shelter magazine, first appearing in 1946 in a new York Times article. Fred? Yes.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah, it's funny. Cause shelter magazine is a term that I think everyone knows and that I mentioned to my friends. Yeah, Shelter magazines never heard of, know what that is. But yeah, I think this is a very charming article that just sort of looked at the history of shelter magazines or design magazines, whatever you want to call them. And it's fun. You know, in the very early days, they were, they, there was this big focus on what they called domestic science, you know, sort of the, the art and science of running a household. And it's, you know, it's interesting just how they've changed over the years. There was a focus on, you know, celebrities that really came around with the rise of Architectural digest in the 70s and 80s. And, you know, what I loved about the piece was how shelter magazines sort of reflect the needs and wants and desires of the American homeowner during a certain era. And it was a fun article from that perspective. But what it really kind of made me wonder, it got me thinking about is, okay, so what will we be looking on 50 years from now as this era and the next one? And will there really be any more big shelter magazines that launch from here? It really has been a while since it's felt like we've gotten a new One that has any scale or size.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah, I think it's such an interesting point. And you and I were talking earlier about the fact that you don't know when you're in the moment that it's going to be so meaningful. But I had the enormous pleasure and privilege of being part of the team that helped to launch Domino back in the day. And I feel like Domino magazine, rumored to have more than $100 million budget behind it, was the last major shel publication that is ever going to be launched on that scale. And it's interesting now that Domino is a sister brand of business of home in a very different form and that it's a digital publication now, but it was the last huge investment in that category by Conde Nast.
- [28:15]
B
Yeah, 100 million. That's the budget for the podcast, right? That's what we expect to get, roughly.
- [28:20]
A
We haven't used it all up yet, thank goodness, but.
- [28:23]
B
Yeah, I know, but it's crazy because, like, you know, we. We may have. It sounds a little sad, but we may. Domino may have put the tombstone on the sort of the very last big Shelter magazine launch. I think that, you know, the caveat to that is that, of course, that's not to say that people aren't. They still want to read about things for their homes. You know, Eldecor and Architectural Digest and House Beautiful still exist, and they still serve a function. I just think that all of the energy and movement now is around TikTok and Instagram and Substack, dare I say it. So I think that in the future, I think that the Shelter media will just be increasingly niche. But I also, for what it's worth, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think, as listeners will know, I'm a huge fan of Substack. Our guest today is going to talk about his substack. I think there's something very cool about having these publications that approach design and Shelter from different angles. And I don't necessarily think that this is a bad change in our media landscape, but it does sort of make you think, like, well, you know, 50 years from now, if Dwell were to write another article saying, you know, look at the development of Shelter magazines, there's going to be, you know, there's going to be kind of a hard end to the, you know, magazines when you talk about the evolution of those. Because I think, you know, that's just sort of the media moment we live in.
- [29:37]
A
Well, I wonder, because the physicality of it is what I think is so special and you see designers so often on Instagram, a designer will share that, oh, I got my hands on some great old copies of Arc Digest or, or some old shelter publications. And they're so excited to have it in their library and to really go through it in a way that you just can't do with substack or with a digital publication that way. So I wonder the physical aspect of it. I wonder how that will change. And listen, new magazines are still coming out all the time, right? They're just not coming out on the scale. And I think we can see, say with certainty that nobody is going to be putting $100 million behind a new publication in the shelter space.
- [30:26]
B
Let's do a Kickstarter, Dennis. Just let's try and raise $100 million.
- [30:30]
A
$100 million. Who can we get to join the team to launch the new space? It'll never happen again. And that's remarkable that we can say that with such certainty. But I am very certain of that and what that says about our time, I'm not sure we'll see what happens in the future. Who knows, maybe all of a sudden subsequents turn into magazines and everyone goes crazy. We'll see. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including Sean Lowe's advice for eliminating project bottlenecks and the best debuts from what's new. What's next? We'll be back in a minute, but first a quick break at Serena and Lily their frames your family fabric. Members of Serena and Lily's trade program enjoy bespoke sizing and service perfectly tailored to any project. Use any one of their 17 design shops as an extension of your workspace or collaborate remotely with their dedicated support team for high touch service and endless inspiration. Join Serena and Lily's trade program for exclusive pricing, complementary swatches, competitive lead times and extended returns@serenaandlilly.com the Thursday Show Hartman and Forbes takes a boutique approach to crafting hand woven natural window coverings offering a level of customization and artistry rarely found in today's market. From adjusting color and thread composition to widening a warp edge or matching a room detail, weave design can be tailored tailored to your vision. The result is a one of a kind hand woven creation supported by exceptional personalized service. Discover what's possible and register for your trade account@hartmanforbes.com and we're back. I'm joined now by world renowned stylists and creative director Colin King. Colin welcome back.
- [32:39]
C
Dennis. Thank you for having me again. It's always a pleasure to see you and speak with you.
- [32:45]
A
I feel the very same way. Fun fact, Colin, you were actually the very first guest when we launched the Thursday show.
- [32:54]
C
I'm glad to see it's doing well and still around, and you set it up for success.
- [32:59]
A
I feel we really owe it all to you. And so that's why I'm having you back, really. Just to thank you.
- [33:05]
C
Well, the bar was on the floor. It was only gonna be up from there.
- [33:09]
A
Well, it was great. And it seems as if many things have been going on for you since then, and I wanted to catch up with you about all of them. We'll talk about your new substack in a moment, but first of all, just tell me how you're doing and what's going on.
- [33:32]
C
I mean, if I had to describe this past year in three words, I think it would be like, humbling, clarifying, and a little weird. You know, there's been a softening both in the work and me and kind of how I've defined success. You know, I used to treat momentum like oxygen, and this year I tried treating silence like oxygen instead. And somehow I'm still here. And it could also be put in a nutshell as I stopped trying to prove that I could do it all, and I started asking if I even wanted to, and spoiler alert, not always. And weirdly, that's been the most expansive part. Pressure is privilege. And having all of that momentum and success and for people to even be interested in your work is like, I'm not gonna sit here and have any sort of self loathing or self pity about that. I'm grateful for all of that. I feel like my story, you know, my story, a lot of this found me. I wasn't quite searching for it, and I had amassed a lot of people around me that, you know, were pushing me in different directions. And it felt like I was a little bit in this. Just this whirlwind and kind of almost washing machine of different voices, and I couldn't really find mine. And. And I was really good at pushing out an aesthetic. And also a. Like social media just feels so. It just feels so easy to me. I know it's very complicated for other people, but it just feels like my left hand a little bit. So I was very good at pushing my aesthetic and being able to push all the work that I was lucky to be a part of. But I didn't want to, like, think of noise as creativity, you know, and it felt. It just Felt like it was getting away from me. Like, I felt like I was kind of abandoning myself in a way.
- [35:33]
A
Tell me what you did to actually pull back and dial things down a little bit and as you were saying, find a little bit more quiet.
- [35:44]
C
I was on the way to signing another book deal, and I was doing a lot with Benny. With Cultured, my world had expanded and grown really big. But I was being asked to basically repeat everything I had done in the previous years, like, just keep going, just keep doing. Just keep producing and producing output. And so I feel like I stepped away from some of that stuff. I put the book on pause. I left my role at Cultured, moved on from my PR team, and just really, I almost contracted after this big expanse, just so I could kind of realign and being able to let the dust settle and find some clarity and really what it is I was doing and what I wanted and where I wanted to go.
- [36:36]
A
You've told this story. You gave a talk at the Design Leadership Network, and you told this story of. I think you were in Belgium at the time, talking with a renowned architect, and he was asking you what you did for a living, Right?
- [36:56]
C
Yeah, I was at an event in Belgium, and this man, this renowned architect, was talking to me, and I was telling him what I did, and he's like, oh, you're Colin King. And the conversation just kind of escalated, evolved. And then he was like, and don't you want more for yourself? And I love designers and architects, but sometimes, similar to doctors, they can have a godlike complex. They're building things, they're making things. And it just felt very pointed and diminutive in the moment. But I also thought it was quite surprising because, of course, these are the normal things we all ask ourselves, don't I want more? But in a way, I've accomplished so much, and it's not about if I want more, it's about. It's like, do I want deeper? How do I actually connect to what I'm doing, rather than just producing work and reaching for something a little bit more, just a little bit deeper.
- [37:57]
A
Yeah. And you've also written recently about the fact that you saw that there were. Whether there were critics or whether there were people who were associating you with a certain aesthetic, as you were alluding to earlier, you certainly became part of what many people saw as this. And you can tell me how best to describe it, this minimalism, this beige ification. People beginning to wonder if, in fact, beige had you on its payroll. Should we clear the air about that, Colin, you're not beige doesn't pay you, right?
- [38:41]
C
No, no, it doesn't. I mean, maybe I wish it did, but it doesn't. Yeah, it's so interesting because I think I'm not a beige guy. I know that sounds really shocking, but I'm not. I think, you know, the reason my apartment, my Tribeca loft, ended up the way it did was because I really let the architecture and the palette inform itself. So as soon as I stripped those floors and they were these, like, kind of yellowy knotted pine, anything I put on the walls needed to really. I just wanted it to feel enveloping. And I got to this color and I just completely plastered and color drenched the walls in these. Or maybe I didn't color drench them. I beige drenched them. And, you know, I just. I really wanted that place to be a canvas for me. And that's really what it became. It was my playground. It was where I literally styled every single day. And, you know, I think Time is the best stylist. And it really did evolve. It went from this beige box to. Then I had my blue furniture in there from my collection with Future Perfect, and it evolved. And I actually got to redesign it recently for someone else because I did move on from there. And it's been a really fun year, just buying new things, finding my voice, and finding my true style, because a lot of people did want to put me in that beige box. But the thing that people don't know is I get to work with a very big network of designers and clients. And I love the spectrum that I get to work within. From the Vincent Van Dysons of the world all the way to the Roman and Williams of the world. You have minimal to maximal. And being able to flex those muscles and jump into those stories and into those worlds is an education unlike any other other. And, yeah, I'm definitely more than just the beige boy.
- [40:42]
A
Well, and to that point, I think, and some designers have shared this with me recently, is that you can be so busy, and yet is the firm really doing well? Are we really making a meaningful living in all of this, or do we need to adjust what we're focusing on and where we're spending our time to make sure that a profitable sort of sustainable business is really being built here. And I wonder if that's part of what is also going on for you.
- [41:22]
C
Yeah, completely. And I mean, even that architect asking if I wanted more, I don't know if that meant scalability or just more meaningful work. I'm not sure I didn't ask exactly what he meant, but I find myself most happy in collaborative scenarios with fewer people. I don't want a big firm. I love to keep it small, but execute big. I work with a lot of companies and the ones I enjoy a lot are the ones with the smallest teams.
- [41:55]
A
But you mentioned, I mean, you mentioned sort of pulling back from your PR team and you mentioned just sort of as part of this whole process of rethinking. Are you hoping to reintroduce yourself and is the substack announcement and we should talk about that? Is that part of it? Is that part of sort of this rebuilding? I don't want to say your image, but how you're thinking about yourself.
- [42:22]
C
I don't know about rebuilding or redefining, but just deepening. I think for me, the sub stack was really. It was something that. When I had that conversation with the architect in Belgium, I was in Madrid the following weekend and I took a notebook to a cafe and I just started writing. And it was the first thing in a few months that had really just flowed through me and I felt like I was in flow. And so this has just been a really nice way to find a different, different form of self expression and connect with my community in a new way. For me, it was really difficult to transition my Instagram because it feels aesthetic. And this is what I share and this is how I share it. And I didn't know how to pivot. So this was another medium that could take me to another platform, another way to connect and build an audience and almost feel like a little bit more playful. I feel like people think that I'm very austere and very serious. And I wanted people to know that my friends think I'm funny and I like to have some polarizing opinions and just that I'm much more than whatever I'm sharing visually on Instagram. And it's been a really fun ride to just kind of have this unfiltered viewpoint on a lot of different, different design elements. Like today I wrote one about how I'm against potted plants.
- [43:53]
A
I know, I know you've come out against the potted plant and I mean, I hope that you're not being bombarded by people, you know.
- [44:02]
C
No, I actually haven't been bombarded at all. I've only been like, people who have agreed. But no, I welcome the discourse. You know, I think writing from personal experience and like, and really being in the trenches for some of these things is like, I don't know. I have a very Unique point of view, I guess you could say.
- [44:24]
A
Well, the funny thing is, to the point you were just making, and we were talking earlier about critics or people who felt comfortable writing whatever they were writing about a certain aesthetic that they were associating. You and others, some of your good friends, I think you know who I'm talking about. And it was so funny to me because part of me wondered, really, have you met Colin? Have you spent some time with him? Because a, he's a pretty sweet guy and I doubt you'd be writing in this tone or this way if you'd actually spend time with him. But also he's very amusing. And I think, like, as you were just saying, Instagram sometimes doesn't let you convey that somehow there, somehow there isn't that playfulness. I mean, you can do it sometimes in stories or you can make funny reels, but that wasn't sort of your thing on that platform.
- [45:19]
C
Yeah. And I mean, someone came to me with this idea for the book I had Arranging Things in my Instagram bio and a literary agent called me and said, hey, I think I could sell a book called Arranging Things. Would you be open to doing a book? And I said yes. So again, it was one of those things that found me and I didn't have the force to, of having done a book, having had a lot of friends that had done books and what it would be like to have to push that book, like the press around it. And when you put anything out into the world, people are going to have opinions. And one of the first Amazon reviews was if I could have written the worst thing about the book, about myself. I was reading it. And the thing is, it was, it didn't affect me as much as I thought it would, but it did teach me that if you're gonna take the good feedback, then you need to take the bad. And I actually try not to engage that much with very opinionated. I don't read the reviews. It's just like a cup of tea. People take their tea black, with sugar, with milk. I'm not gonna be for everybody. And that's okay. And I think as a small town guy from Baltimore, Ohio, I want to be liked by everybody. But it's that growing up and growing through things that you're like, well, I will be that in somebody's story and I can't control that. And I'm just going to surround myself with clients and friends and family that I love and admire and that have that admiration for me and live a really happy and joyous Free life. That I think also people love to hide behind computers and phones. And like you said, when they meet you in person, they don't really have much to say. People are disarmed face to face. It's just, I have thick skin, I can handle it well.
- [47:22]
A
And one has to certainly develop a much thicker skin when one puts themselves out into. Into the world, certainly in the way you do. Or if someone is hosting a weekly podcast, one has to be willing to take the heat. And are you seeing Substack, which I find this really interesting platform and lots of people are thinking of it as sort of blogging 2.0 and just an interesting place for people to speak more freely.
- [47:56]
C
And.
- [47:57]
A
And it just seems like it's a place to talk things out. And it seems like that's part of what you're using it for initially. I mean, you're taking on houseplants. So, I mean, I don't want to say that you're not going after some of the big issues, some of the big players in the industry. I mean, today it's houseplants. I don't know what you're going to go after next in the home world.
- [48:19]
C
Yeah, I'm really enjoying the platform. I met with their team. They're really the advocates, their writers. And I've never been afraid of failure. I mean, having been a dancer and rejection and all of that stuff has just been kind of second nature to me. So whether or not this thing takes off is. I'm out of the results business. I'm just into really taking away the urgency of not labeling things right away and just trying different things. Because if I. If I was operating for fear, I wouldn't try anything. I probably wouldn't leave the house. So I failed before, and I'm happy to try something, and if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. It's just been a really enjoyable process for me to be able to write and to have fun. And, I mean, you can sense the tone. And some of these, I try and show my personality and there'll be house plants, but there'll also be, like, deeply personal things. And. And there will be a lot of sources coming out. Like, I really. I don't want to Gatekeep. I love democratic design, and I will be sharing sources as well. And right now, I mean, I think I'm four posts in. I'm just trying to see. Throw things at the wall and see what sticks. And it's been an adventure and it will continue to be.
- [49:38]
A
You were Talking recently about stillness at. As a strategy. And I wanted to better understand what you mean by that and what that means for you.
- [49:52]
C
It's funny, because I guess this doesn't make any sense. I was about to say I'm chasing stillness, which I guess sounds poetic until you realize I'm just doing it while repositioning a bowl for the 15th time and wondering if a certain hem should puddle or just graze the ground. For me, the stillness is like. I was so in the production of the work that I wanted to start caring more about how the work lives in actual life. Not just on the page or the photograph, but in the corners of someone's day. The shelf as they walk past that quiet part of the room. I've always been a storyteller from my past as a dancer and all the way through working with the greats like Robin Saniford from Roman and Williams. Like, opening a drawer and being like, why didn't you style the inside of the drawer? Because, you know, bringing her cinematic background into a whole nother layer of storytelling. And what I do now, the stillness really resides in the pause. And really, for me, it was just, stop running and see what happens. And I hope that. That the stillness opens space for things to be revealed. I have found in my life that when I make that space, things are revealed to me. I don't have a plan. I never had a plan. I was actually waiting for someone to give me a blueprint to life. I'm finally accepting that someone might never come. And that I've learned, I guess, Dennis, that I don't know what I want. I don't know what I need. And much like how I shop for things, people come. You come into a store, and people are like. They're like, are you looking for anything in particular? And I'm like, I'll know it when I see it, you know? And that's kind of. I feel like at least what the stillness has brought me this year is just like, I'm going to know it when I see it. And if I can get still enough to actually look and to actually notice the things that are in front of me, then I'll know the next right action. But when I breeze by my surroundings, because I've got my eye on one thing, I miss some much along the way. And really, it's funny, I do morning pages, the artist's way. And something that really came up for me today was just. I was talking about beauty, and I feel like I was selling beauty, but I wasn't really Enjoying it. And then can I actually sit with beauty without capturing it? Because I feel like so much of my work is photo, photo, photo, whether I'm on set or, or I'm doing it with my phone. And it's like, can I actually just watch the light come through this room and not pick up a phone? Can I be somewhere and enjoy beauty without having to try to immortalize it with a photo?
- [52:48]
A
Well, I wonder too. And I was talking to Emily Henderson just recently and she had gone through a period not dissimilar to what we've been talking about, talking about. And she went through a period of wanting to step back and do less and be less out there. And one of the things that she found was that Instagram wasn't happy about that decision. And Instagram is a huge part of her business and her revenue and just who she is. And so she had to quickly step back in and correct that. And I'm imagining it must be similar for you. You have a great big following, people have an expectation of you showing up and it must be a component, a big component of you and what you do. Tell me how you think about that.
- [53:46]
C
I'm such an advocate for Instagram as a professional tool. Like before I even was labeled a stylist. Like it was how I communicated with the world in how I saw things and how I saw the world and how I experienced things. And being self taught, it was really important that, you know, I didn't. People were not knocking on my door for this type of work six years ago. And so I would share random things like how a stanchion was placed in the middle of the Met and how leaves had fallen around some tulips that I had bought at the bodega. And I think I always advocate for people to put out the work that they want to be hired for on Instagram. Use it. It's a free tool and it can be, whether or not we like it, is a representation of the work that you produce and how you see. And as artists, what else do we have but how we see, see the world. And so thankfully, I don't really monetize Instagram. It's not my source of income, which has been, I'm very grateful for because I don't feel tied and tethered to constantly sharing and all of that stuff. It's definitely how people know my name, how people find me, how brands find me. But it's almost like a website now. I don't really have a website. Instagram, I'm like that kind of gives you what you need. I tell so many people, so many people are like, I need to hire someone to run my social media. And I'm like, I don't know if you do. I actually think you just need to teach yourself to use it, because no one's going to be able to tell your story like you can. And you can't wait for someone else like me with the blueprint. You can't wait for someone else to tell you how to tell your story.
- [55:45]
A
So it seems as if this isn't a you stepping away time. This is just a you experimenting and thinking about what's really going to be meaningful for you. And the work continues.
- [56:01]
C
Yeah, the work continues. And, I mean, ultimately, whether people have felt it or not, I've stepped way back this year. I have been on set a lot less. I used to travel, like, 181 days a year, and I only know that from counting with my agent and accountant. But it's been a year of really stepping back. The move really changed things for me. I was doing a lot of sprints. I wasn't really considering the marathon of it all, so. So making these decisions and not really seeing how they would kind of change the course of everything moving was really intense for me. That place I poured my heart and soul into and really, I don't know, defined a moment for me and defined.
- [56:56]
A
You to so many people.
- [56:57]
C
It really did. It did. It defined me. I had no idea that's what I was doing in the moment, but that's what ended up happening. And, you know, I think even that apartment was a way for me to still have a wall and be like, look, this is me. This is what I can do. But it really wasn't. It really wasn't me. It really wasn't. And it was never intended to be representational of me. It was like it was intended to be my studio and my office that then just, you know, it was like an avalanche of things. And it's funny to look back on that stuff, because when you're in it, you don't realize what's happening. It's, you know, that hindsight's 20 20, but I always have a friend that says, like, if you're coasting, you're going downhill. So I think there's, like, a discomfort that I've really been seeking. And I think as a creator, you always want to be a little bit uncomfortable and be pushing your own. I don't know, your own concepts and your own beliefs, because ultimately, I don't want to be held back by how other people define me or my own personal close mindedness. So keeping an open mind and some humility is I think the best thing we can do as designers and creatives.
- [58:26]
A
All right, well, I'm feeling a lot of good things are coming your way, Colin. But in the meantime, you can catch up with Colin on the last layer, his substack, where he's not only taking on the potted plant, but lots of other big issues as well. And it sounds like he's working through some things.
- [58:48]
C
Yeah, thanks so much, Dennis. Yeah, thanks for even being interested in having this conversation. I think, think as we all, we all go through these things. So it's fun to be able to articulate and get it out there and hopefully help somebody.
- [59:05]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [59:13]
B
22 caught my eye. The digital printing company that we've had on this very show. They're sitting at a really sweet spot because digital printing seems to get better every month and more and more designers want to get in on it. I just noticed recently that they added this service, which is the sampling component to their digitally printed fabric lines. Now, that may seem like a relatively small thing, but I do think that is kind of like a model that we're going to see more and more where designers who want to get a fabric line up and running can just reach out to one company, whether it's 22, whether it's 1 of the competitors, and, you know, this company will help them come up with the, will help them sort of finesse the patterns, produce the actual fabric and do the sampling for them. I think it's a great, you know, one stop shop solution to, you know, launching your own line. You know, I. It's expensive and it's never going to be cheap to run a fabric company, but I do think you're going to see more stuff like that because I know designers want to do it and, you know, why not? So that kind of caught my eye. Another thing, and I'm not even sure I should be talking about this. I'm just going to. If this ends up in the show, you know, we didn't cut it. But Afternoon Light, the E commerce company that specializes in kind of the, the cool kids design retail world, they had a show called Shelter that we talked about, you know, for New York Design Week earlier this year. So they've actually, they did it in collaboration with Anmore. They're actually breaking up with Anmore and doing another version of the show next year, just under the name after Afternoon Light. So next year they'll be back, but under a different name and maybe Anmore will do their own thing. I don't know. A little bit of an interesting story. Hopefully we'll be able to come back and talk about it next week on the show. But that just caught my eye because a little bit of. A little bit of industry gossip. Why not spill it in the dying embers of the show? Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [60:56]
A
Well, there's a new Barbie in town and. And her name is Joanna Gaines. So Joanna Gaines has been immortalized as a Barbie doll and she's got some. Some roller skates and. And the T shirt and a townhouse to go with. There's a hearth in hand with Magnolia Townhouse. And this is. This is a pretty big deal to be a Barbie doll, right?
- [61:24]
B
This is huge. So does. Does the townhouse have Shiplap in it? That's a good question.
- [61:29]
A
Well, I can't tell from this image, but I would have to say no. It sounds like this is. This is going to be available at Target. And I think a lot of people are going to want a Joanna Gaines Barbie doll. And I don't blame them. I kind of want one myself. Fred, I'm not going to lie to you. The other thing that caught my eye is you and I are headed to what apparently is a pretty hoppin design destination. Destination. Sadly, not Paris, Fred, but. But Manhasset, where you and I will be going to. To the opening of the new RH space there. I'm going to catch an early flight and hook up with you there and. And we'll report back next week on the opening and what we see. But. But a big. Is it 19,000 square feet or something in Manhasset? I'm sure it'll be a great party and I look forward to it. Yes.
- [62:21]
B
I don't know. That's Gatsby Country. This is going to be. It's exciting and it's, you know, as everyone knows, Manhasset is the Paris of Long island.
- [62:29]
A
So that's what people say. That's what people say.
- [62:31]
B
I'm excited. I'm excited to go out there and see you there and have martini and check out what Gary Friedman is up to. Up to in. In Gatsby country. So. Can't wait.
- [62:40]
A
Yeah, no, I will see you there. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke. Edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.