Fred Nicholas (2:32)

I thought we were going to try and get through this episode without saying the T word, but only A few minutes in and already it's here. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was a great conversation. Gracie is a fascinating company. I mean, one thing I loved about it is you see how, like, even though, you know, we all know wallpaper has kind of gone in and out of fashion. And what the conversation showed is that Gracie's business, because it caters to, you know, the super high end, there's always going to be an audience for that, even when wallpaper's in, even when it's out. So there's a stability to that, which is interesting. And again, to delve into a little brief tariff chat, I thought what was fascinating about that is even when there was 145% on China, they were still bringing it in and paying the tariff. And I think it speaks to the design industry. Right. The worst thing you can do is let down a designer. Where Gracie is. Walmart can afford to not have widgets on its website for a couple of weeks. No one's going to stop using Walmart. But if Gracie lets down one of its big clients like Alexa Hampton or Hands are like a bill for double the price, that's going to damage the relationship. So I just thought in that one little factoid, the fact that they were still paying the tariffs, you get a lot of insight around the way the design industry really works.

Dennis Scully (3:40)

Well. And I also think, I completely agree. It speaks to what you can do with a family business. And it spoke in my mind to their level of commitment. They had talked amongst themselves, they had talked with their dad and they said, we're going to send out a communication that says, for right now, everything is going to remain as it is and we will ride through this and hopefully get through this. And again, a company with so much history, you can imagine how many challenges they've had to get through over the last hundred years.

Fred Nicholas (4:13)

Yeah, you last that long, you go through worse things than, you know, a spout of terrorists. I noticed in the recap that one of our editors, Aidan Taylor, wrote, he said something like, you know, Gracie has dealt with a lot of challenges. The rise of communism was, was one that was impacted their business, which the, you know, not something that you hear in the bios of most companies in our industry. So, yeah, they, they've been through worse and I'm sure they'll, they'll survive and endure as they always have. Indeed.

Dennis Scully (4:38)

So it was great to talk to them. I hope people enjoy that and I hope that they get to, to learn about a, a tremendous brand in our industry that not everyone might have been familiar with. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by the Crate and Barrel trade program designers. If you haven't joined yet, it's time to check them out. You'll get access to beautiful, high quality furniture and decor from three design driven brands, Crate and Barrel, CB2 and Kraton Kids, right at your fingertips. Plus a dedicated concierge team to support your projects from concept to flawless installation. Members also get an exclusive 20% discount with no minimum purchase. Join today@ CrateAndBarrel.com trade and start enjoying all the perks. This podcast is sponsored by Jaipur Living. Since 1978, Jaipur Living has redefined rug making, where the value lies not just in the rugs themselves, but in the hands that create them. Every piece is a reflection of heritage care and extraordinary craftsmanship passed down through generations of artisans. For interior designers, the Jaipur Living trade program offers more than just exclusive benefits and insider pricing. It offers a trusted partnership rooted in Service. With over 2000 rugs in stock and ready to ship, they make it seamless to deliver timeless style and substance to every client. Apply to become a partner at Jaipor Living. And we're back. This time, Fred, we get to start the show with Airbnb.

Fred Nicholas (6:25)

Last week, the platform announced a major expansion, moving beyond home rentals and into a vast new assortment of services and experiences. Dennis, do you ever stay in Airbnbs? I know you're kind of a hotel guy. What's your take on Airbnb?

Dennis Scully (6:40)

I have enjoyed some Airbnbs in the past, and perhaps if a personal chef had been more readily available to me and a personal masseuse, I might have had a better experience in some of the places that I've stayed. I like the amenities, Fred. And so this whole announcement is speaking to me.

Fred Nicholas (6:58)

Yeah, and that's really what this announcement is all about, is adding services and experiences to Airbnb's roster. So you come into town, you book an Airbnb, you want someone to cook you dinner on Sunday, you can book a private chef through the platform, you want a massage, you can book a masseuse through the platform. And also there's all these experiences. So if you want a tour of local architectural highlights, you can get that as well. So it's really just trying to add all the things that you might be able to get at a hotel onto the Airbnb experience, which, I don't know, it seems smart to me. I'm sure there's some skepticism that People will really utilize all of this because it does feel a little bit like hiring a stranger. But I also feel like to some degree, like that's what people said about Airbnb 15 years ago and here we are now.

Dennis Scully (7:39)

Well, exactly how people felt about Uber when there was some unknown driver that was suddenly taking you around. I mean, I think we've crossed over with our comfort level in so many ways with so many of these companies. And I think there is an incredible opportunity for Airbnb to offer this whole range of concierge like services. And it does seem that the high end hotel industry is, is very much one of the potential targets in all of this because many of these services would be provided by you going downstairs at the Connaught here in London and asking the concierge to arrange one of these experiences for you. So it'll be, it'll be interesting to see if it, if it creates more of that type of experience for so many people who don't want to be in a hotel for a whole range of reasons.

Fred Nicholas (8:31)

Yeah. I also think it like, points to a broader trend in hospitality at the very high end, which is like, you know, gone are the days of like super extreme high end luxury where everything in your room is like a Faberge egg. You know, I think that a lot of the big people who build high end hotels are leaning into now. Millennials are our target target audience. They want experiences, they want authenticity, they want realness. And I think that's, you know, precisely what Airbnb is trying to provide with this rollout. You know, now it's interesting because, you know, this doesn't necessarily directly concern designers, but I do think Airbnb is like such an important company in the industry in a way that we don't often talk about. It really has provided like a proof point to why design is so valuable over the past, you know, decade because, you know, everyone will tell you that the Airb the get book the most are the ones that have the best design. It just so clearly demonstrates in a very real, like, monetary, direct way how valuable design actually is. And a lot of designers have an Airbnb and have like a little side hustle with that. And so, you know, I know, you know, Airbnb adding personal chefs is not necessarily going to like make or break any designer's day. But I do think it's important to sort of follow what's going on with the company because it is a meaningful one in our world.

Dennis Scully (9:40)

I agree. And I think we've, we've seen from the from the research, as you say, that the best design spaces are the most popular, get the best, best prices, and have the highest ratings. And I think that somewhere there are lots of opportunities for designers in all of this. I think there's always an opportunity for great design in a space that is providing hospitality. But I'd be surprised if, in addition to the culinary services and the other personal services that are being offered here, design won't creep its way into the offerings. And I couldn't help but think about the recent conversations we were having about matchmaking and design services. Right. Yeah. So I'd be surprised if there isn't soon going to be a design element. Maybe you can just have someone drop by your space and just chat with you. I mean, how cool would that be.

Fred Nicholas (10:36)

Though, if you see an Airbnb that you really like and like, one of the options is, I can't afford to stay there, but I want to connect with the person who designed it for, like an expert, like, consultation. That's a cool idea. You know, I don't know. That doesn't exist on the site now, but. Brian Chesky, if you're listening, Airbnb CEO, you can send me and Dennis a consulting fee.

Dennis Scully (10:54)

Well, and you hear from so many designers who say, I got to the room and then I redesigned it and made all the changes. But I do think again, I think design is going to show up in a meaningful way in this whole rollout. It seems inevitable to me.

Fred Nicholas (11:11)

Agreed.

Dennis Scully (11:11)

Moving on. We're going to talk about luxury real estate. While the overall housing market remains sluggish, the highest end buyers appear to be on a tear. Wall Street Journal analysis found that the number of homes sold for 10 million or more has surged in major markets across the country. So, tale of two cities here, Fred.

Fred Nicholas (11:31)

Yeah, I mean, we are very frequently singing a song of doom and gloom about the housing market on this podcast, so much so that we often cut it. Listeners don't know that we could talk about it every week, but we choose not to. So I just thought it would be fun to talk about the rare bright spot which is happening at the very tippy top of the high end. It was interesting. The Wall Street Journal did an anal of these, these markets, and, you know, they saw the Miami Dade county jumped 48.5% year over year, and in Aspen, sales jumped 43%. And LA county also jumped a little bit at the very, very high end. So that's something that's interesting. And, you know, the thesis of the article was that, you know, because you know, there's a lot of volatility in the stock market because of tariffs. People are parking their money in real estate, which is a more stable, steady asset. That could be true kind of in the margins. Anecdotally. I also think it's just true that, like, look, these people have money, you know, they haven't been that impacted by all of the, you know, tariff, stock market fluctuations and, you know, they're going to buy a home if they want to buy a home. And a lot of them have been sitting on the sidelines. So you're seeing some movement here. I guess the question is like, does this really matter or is this sort of a marginal edge case that is not worth paying that much attention to? What do you think, Dennis?

Dennis Scully (12:42)

I think it matters to the very high end designers who are servicing this client. But I think in some of these markets we're still talking about a very small level or a very low number of transactions here. I mean, we talk about Aspen. I think the number was 16 homes, over 10 million sold in 24, and now it's 23 in 25. So that's a big jump, but that's still a very small number of homes overall. So it doesn't really speak to a huge number of people. But again. And so much of the industry that we talk about and perhaps often don't talk about enough is servicing this ultra high income customer.

Fred Nicholas (13:28)

Yeah. In the article, the sort of percentage does a lot. You know, when you hear, oh, Beverly Hills transactions are up 33%, you're like, wow. But the number jumped from 12 to 16 and it's like, okay, so four more homes got sold, which is great. It's a great opportunity for maybe four designers. But. But doesn't fundamentally change the market. But yeah, I do think you're right. Look, I mean, it's always difficult to know how to talk about this because as we often say, you could talk to any one designer that could be having the best year of their career right now. Because at the very, very rarefied end of the very top end of the industry, things are basically fine. And some of those designers have their pipelines totally full and no one is really hurting. And as you say, there's a huge industry around that. It's not just the designer, it's the people like Gracie and the companies that, that service them. And so those people are all, are all doing okay. And I do think you have seen like kind of a race to the top because a lot of people perceive there being, you know, sanctuary there. So you know, I think these numbers are telling and a good reminder that we maybe shouldn't be so doomy and gloomy about housing. But I do think there's a huge group of designers that are outside that very thin slice of the 1% who are still kind of feeling the hit of a very sluggish housing market. So I want to be mindful of kind of both, both parts of the market whenever we have these conversations. But as you said at the very beginning, it is a tale of two cities for sure.

Dennis Scully (14:49)

It is very much. And we have to be mindful, as we talked about before we started recording for the rest of the market, unfortunately interest rates are backing up again and the 30 year mortgage rate is almost at 7%. Many of the people that we've just been talking about don't use a mortgage, so it didn't affect them. But for everyone who is relying on that, still faced with, with the challenge of higher rates. But we are nonetheless seeing more activity in the market overall in terms of inventory becoming available. And we have seen a growing perception that perhaps it's shifting to become more of a buyer's market. We've talked about for so long the fact that people just couldn't wait any longer. You have to move, you have to sell your home for a host of different reasons. So we are starting to see signs of that. Just not as much as we would like in the short term. And many would certainly like those rates to come down. So we remain hopeful on that front. In the meantime, we're going to move on. Fred and talk about a company that you wrote about called Gantry.

Fred Nicholas (15:56)

This month, lighting manufacturer Gantry is launching a new program that allows anyone to produce a line via its 3D printing system. According to the company, it can turn a concept into a market ready product in as little as three months and for a mere fee of $10,000 as a startup engineering cost, what'd you make of that? Dennis?

Dennis Scully (16:13)

I think this sounds really exciting and a lot of different possibilities and opportunities for this. I want to get into it, but first let's talk a little bit about how it works and what's involved.

Fred Nicholas (16:25)

We all know that the production process for most lighting and furniture is very inefficient and certainly not super sustainable. You know, it's like you're shipping fabric across the world to get it integrated into a frame and then shipping it back and, and it may be affordable because of low labor costs overseas, but you're certainly taking up a lot of time, a lot of energy and a lot of money in order to make that happen. And so there has long been this sort of vision of using 3D printing to do manufacturing. And it kind of goes a little bit like this. The idea is that if you had a 3D printing facility, like let's say in the suburbs of New York, every time you got an order, you could just hit a button. The machine would spin up whatever it was, whether it's a chair or a lamp or a fixture, and it would be on demand. So the company who was responsible for it wouldn't have to hold inventory. The shipping would be local, it'd be very close. It would be inexpensive and the design would be very malleable. You could make quick changes on the fly. You wouldn't have to send prototypes back and forth endlessly with the people making your stuff in Indonesia. But it's expensive to get these systems up and running. This is kind of like bleeding edge technology. And I think there's sort of like a perception maybe, fair or not, that 3D printing isn't really up to snuff as a very high end manufacturing technique. So anyway, that's, that's kind of the ground for this. And I think what's interesting is that Gantry, this company based in California, you know, claims to have developed a system to, you know, to produce their own line that can do that, that can produce lighting fixtures very quickly, very efficiently and affordably. And it's, it's cool that they're opening up to other people. And it's interesting. I'll be interested to see what people do with it.

Dennis Scully (17:58)

Exactly. I'll be interested to see what people do with it. And I am really interested in small scale production and making it possible for designers to either create their own brand and introduce some products under that label, or even just create more custom pieces for clients that maybe ultimately goes into production. It sounded as though, and I think you talk about in the article, for a mere $10,000, you can get all of this going. So I mean, that doesn't sound like a huge investment. And I'm, and I'm curious what you know of who might be doing this Right. Right now?

Fred Nicholas (18:39)

Yeah, I mean, I think right now it's mostly been like industrial designers like Gantry is, you know, collabed with like Kareem Rashid for example, and they came out with, you know, along with this program's debut, it's called Gantry Made. They did a few collections, one with, interestingly enough, Hayworth actually, and our friends at Rarefy and one other design studio that you know, allowed those outside companies to use their system to produce their own wine. So, I mean, it's interesting. I certainly could see outside design studios developing like a little custom product, like the sort of the cool industrial designers of the world. I could also see like retail chains developing their own product that they produce at sort of a small to mid sized scale. So I'm hopeful that some designers, you know, will try this. I mean, I'm. First of all, I'm hopeful that Gantry, you know, lives up to the promise, but I'm hopeful that some designers will try this because as we've talked about before, like having custom product and product that you control, the marketing, the branding, you know, the margin, importantly on, is very important in a world where, you know, your clients can get access to anything they want online. Having something that you solely control is a very compelling idea.

Dennis Scully (19:41)

One of the challenges is, and we were talking about this right before the show, the perception of 3D printing and what people bring to mind when they think of 3D printing and perhaps images that we saw in the early days when this technology was new. It seems as if it's come quite a long way in the same way that digital printing has evolved quite a ways since when we first talked about it. And so many more people feel comfortable with it.

Fred Nicholas (20:09)

Yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think like when 3D printing first came out and was first sort of like a thing that you could use in the home industry, I think everyone was really excited and really hyped it up. And every press release you'd get about it was like 3D printing did this or that. But I think it kind of got a stigma because a lot of those products were a little bit clunky in terms of the production or not exactly what, you know, a designer would have liked. And they're sort of developed this stigma around while 3D printing isn't really that great. And so then brands have really pulled back from saying that something is 3D printed. Like, I've noticed that Gantry, when they're promoting this, they don't lead with 3D printing. They're not like, check out our 3D printing methodology. It's all about like efficient production and, you know, and all of that. So I think there is still a lingering stigma. But as you pointed out, there was a huge stigma around digitally printed textiles. You know, there still kind of is for some people, but, you know, there was a big stigma around it even a decade ago where they were perceived as being very low quality. And, you know, year by year, the technology gets a little bit better, a little bit better. More and more companies are using it. It so much fabric in the D and D right now is digitally printed. And I think the stigma is certainly going away. And I think that the same thing will happen over time with 3D printing, you know, as it gets better and better. I saw Gantry at ICFF this past weekend. I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit. And, you know, I was impressed. You know, it's, it's, it is a limited production methodology. Like, you can't, you know, work in wood and glass and metals. Like, everything, you know, is made with that sort of like 3D printed material. It's, you know, it's derived from, I think, like agricultural waste or something. But it looks cool. The resolution is really good. It doesn't, like, look 3D printing Y. So I think it's only going to get better. And, you know, whether Gantry is successful long term and, you know, expanding this concept, I think it's something to pay attention to in, you know, over time.

Dennis Scully (21:50)

And certainly I will be, no doubt. I think it's going to evolve and I think it's exciting. I'm glad you got to see them and check it out a little bit. I'll be really eager to see where all of this goes. And again, as much as anything, I love designers having more ways of making a limited product offering. I just think there are so many opportunities for designers there. Moving on, let's talk about New York Design Week. As the annual citywide celebration wraps up, the BOH team looked back on their biggest takeaways from the festival and this week's feature.

Fred Nicholas (22:24)

So let's start. Dennis, what was your favorite thing about Design Week?

Dennis Scully (22:27)

Well, sure, let's start by saying that sadly, and this was quite emotional for me, Fred. I missed my first ICFF and I can't even tell you how many years it was hard. You make it sound like it's been so great being here in London, Fred, but, you know, missing out on ICFF and New York Design Week and the new arrival shelter that I didn't get to check out.

Fred Nicholas (22:51)

Well, I'm sure David Beckham did a lot to soothe your sadness.

Dennis Scully (22:54)

He helped to buck me up.

Fred Nicholas (22:56)

No, I mean, to be fair, like, I, you know, I was. Was dealing with some deadlines. It was exhausted, mildly sick. I didn't make it out to as many things as I would have liked to, but thankfully, we've got a crack team here at boh and all of our editors fanned out across the city, went to a lot of events, a lot of parties, and took it all in. You know, I do think New York Design Week just at a high level. Like, there's always this sort of, you know, is it really everything it should be? Is it as good as Milan? Blah, blah, blah. You know, there was actually this trend forecaster J. Mies posted on Instagram, something I thought was a very, very hot take, which he said, like. Like this year, New York was actually better because Milan has become just like a fashion show and a, you know, an opportunity for big brands to show off their latest thing. So that was a certainly a fun, hot take. Probably not shared by everyone, but interesting movement in that direction. I thought it was. I thought it was really fun. Certainly there was a lot more of everything. There were a lot of events. You know, our market editor was talking about how she was seeing editors dropping like flies out in the mean streets of Design Week. So there was certainly no. No shortage of offerings. And it was. It was a fun event for most people I spoke to.

Dennis Scully (23:56)

Yeah. And I did get to go to some things right before I left for London. And I did correspond with many people who were going around the shows. It definitely seemed like there was a really good energy, and I'd love to see a headcount on how many people think it really felt like Milan. But I do think that it more and more feels like it's gaining the scale and the feeling that there are activations going on in many different places where it wasn't happening before. And interestingly, that New York Times piece that talked about all of these showrooms that are in upper floors of buildings that you might not even be aware of, and the fact that Nikki Kehoe and Lulu Little Space and many that were listed in the article remind us there are lots of design spaces in and around the city that. That seemed to participate in a new and expanded way.

Fred Nicholas (24:54)

Yeah, no, for sure. I think, to be honest, I'm guessing Jay's take was a little bit more about Milan dissatisfaction than it was anything. But I do think, yes, generally speaking, people like Design Week. I didn't hear anyone complain that there wasn't enough or that it wasn't cool enough. So I think it was certainly a good event by those standards. My main thing that I did that I feel somewhat qualified to talk about is going to the two shows, icff, and of course, as you mentioned, the debut show Shelter.

Dennis Scully (25:22)

Yes.

Fred Nicholas (25:23)

That we talked about a few weeks ago here on the show, which is really Interesting. It's interesting to have a new, you know, big tent show in New York. So that was interesting to see how it went. You know, how both shows went. They were also only 10 blocks away from each other. So it was interesting just to sort of like see both of those shows and dive in a little bit on that part of Design week.

Dennis Scully (25:41)

Well, and what was your sense and what was the. What was the vibe? What did you see?

Fred Nicholas (25:46)

Yeah, well, I mean, starting with Shelter. Shelter was certainly very cool. So Shelter is like, like, you know, Afternoon Light is very much like an e commerce site for the cool kids. It's all the sort of like hipster ceramic brands, like cool upstarts, interesting avant garde designers. And, you know, they were definitely in full force along with, you know, like, Carl Hansen was there and USM was there and Blue Dot was there. So it wasn't entirely kind of like the avant garde there. There was a good mix. It was a cool show. It was like very. It was like low key, sounds weird, but like, they allowed people to bring dogs and so there were kind of, you know, dogs wandering around. And there was cash and carry, so you could buy something if you wanted. And it had kind of like an experimental feel, like trying different things and shaking things up, you know, like the normal, you know, template of the trade show is definitely like a shake up of that. I definitely saw a lot of the people that you'd want to see at a show like that. There were a lot of tastemakers, A lot of designers went. I do, you know, most people who showed there because obviously it was a lower price for vendors to show there than it would have been to show it ICFF and wanted. So they had a lot of first timers at Shelter, most of whom were like, really thrilled about how it went. There were some people who were like, well, I could have used more foot traffic. And, you know, you're going to hear that grumbling, certainly. But generally the vibe was very good there and it was cool to see something new that actually felt new. Not just like the same thing in a different building, you know.

Dennis Scully (27:01)

And icff, what did you. What did you. What was your sense there?

Fred Nicholas (27:05)

Well, we have this conversation every year, Dennis, but ICFF is very tricky to wrap your head around because you can talk to someone and they will say, like, it's the best one ever. And then you like, walk 30ft and they'll like pull you aside and like, be like, it's never been worse. Like, you really get, like the range of opinions. Not, I don't Know if either one of those is true. A couple of things. One thing is, I think for sure, you know, how Claire and Odile from Wanted Design took over the festival a few years ago and brought, you know, Wanted Design and ICFF together. I guess that had happened before, but they really took it over in 2022. And I think, like, it really feels like a cohesive show now. Like, it doesn't feel like a bunch of things, it feels like one thing. And I thought this sort of of show making was really well done. You could wander through different sections and discover things. It all felt very cohesive. I think the vendor count was a little bit down over last year. Not like extremely, but a little bit lower. But it didn't. Didn't really feel like that because they did a good job of kind of packing in everyone together. So the energy was very high in general, the vibe was good. Maybe the numbers were kind of flat compared to last year, but it did not seem like a bummer of a show by any means.

Dennis Scully (28:11)

Well, I was particularly curious after we saw from High Point that a lot of the international visitors stayed away. I was curious because ICFF is such an international show and different countries from all over the world bring product and represent there. And so I was curious to see if those numbers and those participants were impacted in a meaningful way.

Fred Nicholas (28:34)

Well, I think we should wait for the official numbers, but I will say anecdotally, like, there were certainly lots of international brands. I think the theme. One of the themes of was, you know, Brazilian brands. And there were a lot of them. There was a section dedicated to French craftsmanship. There was an incredibly cool Japanese company called the Miyazaki Chair Factory that just produced the most beautiful, you know, wood chairs. So I definitely didn't feel like, you know, international companies didn't show up. It was interesting just because, like, you know, look, ICFF is very different than High Point. And I tried to talk about tariffs with everyone I met. You know, apologies for bringing up the T word again, but it just didn't make as much of a difference to them. Right. Because a lot of them are manufacturing domestically or in Europe. You know, their price point is higher. They're in a different part of the market. It didn't really seem to make an impact for them. There aren't that many people, you know, producing a million of their product in China. So it didn't. It didn't matter as much at icff, which was, you know, maybe not surprising, but an interesting little data point.

Dennis Scully (29:29)

But it sounds like, for the most part, you feel it was, it was pretty upbeat and shelter a welcome addition to the New York design.

Fred Nicholas (29:36)

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to see next year. I think like it proved that, you know, both that part of town and that weekend can sustain two shows and I think generate real returns for the people who showed up there. So I'm, you know, I'm excited to see, you know, what both shows look like next year especially, you know, ideally if we all survive to 26 and get a fix. If how housing turns around and it's a slightly sunnier home economy next year, I think it's the groundwork is there. So let's, let's build on it.

Dennis Scully (30:03)

That will be great. Well, I look forward to being back at icff. I was sorry to mention miss it, but. But it happens. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including June's Can't Miss Design events and Sean Lowe's advice on how AI might impact the design industry. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. This season embraces the art of outdoor living living. From sunlit porches to al fresco gatherings, Jaipor Living's curated collection of indoor outdoor rugs brings effortless style to every open air moment. Designed to endure, crafted to elevate, these are the finishing touches for a summer well lived. Explore the collection@jaiporliving.com or followporliving on Instagram. Crate and Barrel wants to remind you to join the Crate and Barrel trade program. Your design projects deserve seamless execution. That's where their trade program excels. From initial concept to install, Crate and Barrel's knowledgeable team provides concierge level assistance, product expertise and white glove delivery. Plus, members Enjoy an exclusive 20% discount with no minimum purchase on beautiful, high quality furniture and decor from crate and barrel, CB2 and Creighton kids. For unmatched support and members only savings, join today@creightonbarrel.com trade and we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer, design author and now once again entrepreneur David Netto. David, I am so glad to have you.

David Netto (31:52)

Well, Dennis, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me back on the show. Thank you.

Dennis Scully (31:55)

Thrilled to have you back and particularly excited to be talking about Woodard Weave, a great American brand that you have swooped in at the 11th hour and saved. And I'm grateful to you for that and I'm excited to talk about it.

David Netto (32:10)

I'm so glad you feel that way, because that's exactly the way I felt about Woodard Weave. I would definitely say that they were one of my top three vendors and resources that I depended upon to use in all kinds of projects. And I came at it just thinking, well, I can't allow this to go away for my sake. And then the more I learned about it as a business, the more I believed in its upside potential for everybody else's sake.

Dennis Scully (32:34)

I'll bet it's one of those brands that so many people have seen on the pages of magazines in projects from Bunny Williams and great designers of that ilk and didn't realize that's what it was or who it was. But let's tell people a little bit about this brand and how you. How you now came to be its owner.

David Netto (32:57)

Right. Well, I actually heard from Bunny spontaneously. I got a nice email from her saying, thank you for saving me.

Dennis Scully (33:03)

Oh, is that right?

David Netto (33:04)

What a good idea. She thought it was. So the outpouring of thanks and enthusiasm from people like Bunny and Ken Falk and lots of decorators in the UK like Adam Bray, who I wouldn't have thought maybe had any awareness of black weave, has made me feel very good about this. So there was a time when Americana was considered extremely chic as a platform upon which to then be cool and more contemporary. And Woodard Weave was an essential part of that story. So that's exactly how I used it. And I think in the 90s, the 80s, the company was founded in 1981 or 82, there was a lot more sophistication around the use of American Humble, Shaker, upstate Pennsylvania Dutch components in making sophisticated rooms, which has somewhat gone into eclipse since then.

Dennis Scully (34:01)

Do you feel?

David Netto (34:03)

Well, everybody wants upscale West Elm. They don't think. They want color or pattern, but I'm going to try to persuade them differently.

Dennis Scully (34:11)

I think this is going to help bring them around and swing that in the other direction.

David Netto (34:14)

Direction, good. I'm trying to talk up something that I actually believe in, so I don't want to be. The nature of these rugs is very understated. The reason that they were easily, as you correctly pointed out, not the first noticeable thing in a room is because that's exactly how they were designed to perform. They are the platform on which you notice all kinds of other things, but they give a sense of both cheerfulness in terms of their palette and patina in terms of their implication of age. That is very essential to the kinds of rooms that I like to try to do, the go to use for wood. For me has very often been staircase runners, because you get one move in a back stair or front stair, you don't have a bunch of furniture. Maybe you're not using a lot of art. And the runner is going to carry the success of that space and wood again and again, I've come back to and gotten that result from.

Dennis Scully (35:17)

Well, so I love this notion that you were so familiar with them because as you say, they were one of your top vendors. And it sounds as if you got word that. And I don't know if I recall, the founder was advanced in years and perhaps was just deciding enough is enough.

David Netto (35:38)

Yes, Tom was. I think he's 85 and just decided to. I mean, I would love to retire if somebody would buy me, but you can't sell anybody a decorating business. So we got an email. I had no personal acquaintance with Tom, but I do remember his wife and he, Blanche, had a shop in the 70s that was very respected. And so we got an email blast a few months ago saying that they, after 50 years, decided to close down. And I didn't hesitate 10 seconds to write back and say, is there any. Any discussion to be had about buying the company? I really can't bear to think of this going away. I'm such a fan of yours. And then we started talking in February about doing this and closed like two weeks ago.

Dennis Scully (36:23)

So it came together pretty quickly. It sounds like it did.

David Netto (36:25)

It did. There was a couple of other interested buyers at some point who I never knew by name. But I think I won in the end because Tom believed in my passion for what he and his wife stood for aesthetically, that I paid him what he wanted. I didn't really. In the end, I didn't pay what opening ask was, but I didn't negotiate aggressively once it became something that I thought was appropriate because I wanted to end up owning this thing. And I thought it was absolutely worth every penny.

Dennis Scully (36:56)

Well, and did he give you an indication of what actually you would be buying beyond the name itself? I mean, did you got a sense?

David Netto (37:02)

There's an archive of designs both discontinued and never produced. And there is a significant stock. We're well stocked. There is a brilliant small staff, decades of experience, none of whom will be allowed to leave their chairs who are more valuable than anybody. I need them now more than they need me. But most importantly to me, probably, and the last discovery that I really kind of investigated in detail was the wonderful relationship with the factory overseas that makes the rugs, which is why they're the right price. And that is a Gentleman who was friends with Tom and Blanche since they started. They essentially started the company together since that person was a student at Columbia. And they all met and they became friends and decided to create these rugs based on. On the American sort of Amish Shaker point of view. And I believe that the manufacturer that I'm speaking of was also godfather to the children of the owners. It was a very close relationship and I especially needed that to stay in place because that person, whoever and I've come to know him a bit, has been making the rugs, has a real eye and is just as passionate about them being right, looking right as the American founders.

Dennis Scully (38:25)

So you're headed over there soon, I assume?

David Netto (38:28)

I am. I am as soon as possible. But that relationship is one of the assets that I acquired with the business because it's certainly something that we can build on and make all kinds of potentially other products with what are. To me, it's a great American brand. It sounds delusional to again mention Ralph Lauren or something that really is an enormous business as well as a great American brand. But I would say in terms of the interior's context that the kind of point of view that that stands for is absolutely something that Woodard has. It hasn't been diluted and it's easy to like 50% of the people looking at something, the more sophisticated it is, might not like it, it could be great, but it wouldn't necessarily be scalable because it would be too difficult or intellectual or something for many customers. And that's not true about this business. There's something there for everybody and it's very hard to dislike it, which makes me think it's going to grow and that applications could come to fruition, like making the mats for Hinkley Picnic Boats. That's a great American brand in Maine, right?

Fred Nicholas (39:38)

Sure.

David Netto (39:38)

If you could figure out how to make these rugs waterproof, they would look great in boats like that. The whole aesthetic is Maine Already. I've been hearing from people, very cool people with houses in Maine who want to replace their beloved Woodard runners and rugs. And so alliances like that are in my head. I haven't pushed the button on any of these conversations yet, but I'm going to be looking for ways to jump into other categories.

Dennis Scully (40:02)

Yeah, it certainly seems like it would be easy to imagine some great brand partners and I could imagine some basic big fabric houses that we all know and love bringing this line in and having it fit right in from day one.

David Netto (40:17)

It was once in great multi line showrooms Like Schumacher and they'll be hearing from me. There's no problem with the product and there's no problem with the aesthetic, the style of the product. The problem is when you get older you lose the energy to promote and it's become invisible by multiple vectors. But I think when Tom was widowed he quite understandably in that stage of grief, just didn't want to promote it and shared himself publicly in the same way that he did when he was with his wife and they were building the business. So I'm going to take that over for my own sake and also to honor the potential here.

Dennis Scully (41:01)

Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely. I'm curious for you, I mean was this something you had at all been thinking about? Had you been missing the entrepreneurial days?

David Netto (41:10)

I mean I'm thinking about an island like the last scene in Trading Places, remember Looking good Billy Ray. I thought I was on the five yard line but apparently I'm not going to be able to escape. Well, here's what I'll say, I mean about my own dreams such as I may still have left to me every person in a service business probably dreams of being, being in a product business and being a merchant as you, the lovely term you applied in the beginning. One of the people that I most admire working with actually because I have a line with her is Lulu Little of Britain.

Dennis Scully (41:48)

I'm a huge fan.

David Netto (41:49)

She is someone with great business instincts and kind of the moxie for the appetite for risk that has resulted in her single handedly saving the British rattan into industry by buying at the moment of its being about to close the last rattan factory in Leicester. Everyone else has gone to Asia to make that stuff and Lulu is very much a believer in British industry and craft being irreplaceable and in explaining to people what the value is that justifies the prices which are then unavoidable if it's manufactured domestically. In England, I was with Lulu as a customer shopping. I became I think still her best performing designer collaboration for the lighting collection I have with her. And when I go to those factories and meet the people that she's employing, like entire families in Leicester weaving these fantastic lights, I was jealous most of all of her entrepreneurship. And so I'm pretending to be lazy but I actually really want, wanted to do this in some form. I just didn't know what I knew. I didn't want it to be furniture because I had done that with the baby furniture 15 years ago.

Dennis Scully (43:02)

Yeah. And as I recall the baby furniture was quite a production back in the.

David Netto (43:07)

Day it was culturally very, very successful. It was not the business that I came for that I. When you're young, nobody tells you you can't do something. I just looked at that and was convinced because it was such a desired idea for the marketplace, I thought there'd be this huge business there. And in fact, furniture is much more complicated than any service aspect of what else I've done. It's heavy. It costs a lot to move it. There are currency fluctuations that totally upend your strategy when you start working with factories overseas. And it was very, very complicated as soon as I got into it. And I was dreaming of getting out of it as soon as I got into it, but here I am again.

Dennis Scully (43:52)

Well, and do we need to call Claude Arpels and get the band back together and have him step in to help you with Woodard?

David Netto (44:01)

It would be nice to have a business partner in exactly the way you are implying. But I didn't get organized fast enough. I needed to jump on this. There was a close date relating to the warehouse lease and the employees had all been informed and God forbid, were making plans to get other jobs. And there was no time to go around looking for investment or executive partnership. This just had to happen. It was like buying a painting at auction. You can't committee that great art collections are never made by pension funds or investment banks that think that that's a category that they want to get into because it has to be so impulsive. You have to jump at the opportunity. You have to have the autocratic control to recognize the opportunity. And I'm pleased to say so far, because it doesn't feel like anything but a good idea, especially given the public reaction that I've enjoyed that that happened here.

Dennis Scully (44:59)

Well, so, I mean, I'm glad that you mentioned that about the staff, because I was a little bit worried that everybody saw the business winding down and was starting to head for the exits.

David Netto (45:08)

Or it was terrifying when I started talking about buying it. I didn't know who might have already accepted another job or what the status of the relationship with the factory was, but that all happily fell into place. Those people, I've met them all now, they believe in me. They know that I'm there for the right reason and that they remember when this company was quite dominant and visible in the 80s and 90s, when decorators were like Jed Johnson and Mariette Hines. Gomez were big, big customers and Woodard was all over the magazines. And they know that can happen again.

Dennis Scully (45:46)

Well, and as you say, when. When Americana and. And all of that was also all over the magazines and. And that whole look and. And style. And Barbra Streisand would always be on the COVID of AD Right with all of her collection.

David Netto (45:59)

She's my next call.

Dennis Scully (46:00)

There you go.

David Netto (46:01)

I gotta lock her in. We need Barbara.

Dennis Scully (46:04)

I'm certain she'll be excited about this.

David Netto (46:07)

Good God, I hope so. It's not just when it was for me, it's right now, because I use these rugs in all my projects. I wouldn't have a book without them. And the first thing I did was send the warehouse employees my book. I wanted them to know that there was this whole other side to the way I looked at what they were doing that maybe hadn't been in the history of the company so far. It really had a future.

Dennis Scully (46:35)

Well, that's what I think the huge opportunity is. And again, it could be brand partners. It could be a creative team that you get to work with. I know that you're very friendly with Helen at Fuzco. So, I mean, she was my right.

David Netto (46:49)

When Barbara didn't take my call, I called Helen and I said, I want to hire Fuzzcup. We're talking about Helen Rice, who's the proprietor of a very hip graphic design and corporate branding identity firm called Fuzzco. So in combining a sensibility of someone like Helen, who's going to give the Americana vibe a futuristic thread through it, that's exactly the kind of moves we're going to make here. We're going to make this look cool, because it is cool. There's an element of deja vu to this, which is very, very psychological for me, which is in 1977, at a cocktail party, Sister Paris turned to my father, who was at that point in the textile business with Alan Campbell. He was Alan Campbell, my godfather's partner in Alan Campbell Inc. And she said, you should buy this company that used to be wonderful, and no one remembers it now, called Cowton and Tout. And Cowton and Tout at that point consisted of two old ladies in a trunk of rags, essentially, with, I think, less than $50,000 a year in sales, which is exactly what he paid for that company. My father walked down and bought it. And then people like Mario Buada and Mark Hampton and Sister very much wanting that resource to not go away, used all over the magazines and all over rooms for the Blair House, the White House, Brooke Astor's apartment. That was all Cat in Tout. And it became a big part of the movement of whatever the 80s stood for aesthetically, along with companies Like Pierre Deux. Remember Pierre Deux with the band?

Dennis Scully (48:29)

Well, exactly, Please. My parents always still papered in Pierre Deux.

David Netto (48:36)

And so when I bought this, and I thought, I'm exactly the same age as when my father bought Cabinet Town, and the company is sort of in exactly the same state, state of eclipse, and it has exactly, hopefully the same potential as what he did, I thought, how funny that history repeats itself.

Dennis Scully (48:52)

Well, and wouldn't that be extraordinary? And we should say for listeners that obviously David is referring to his father, EL Donetto, who bought Captain and Tout. And that was a remarkable story, and so much was built from that. And I think you're absolutely right to make the connection. There's so much possibility here.

David Netto (49:10)

I mean, I'm not overstating the power of rugs to change. Change the culture, the way fabrics that can make a whole room can do, and in that case, did. But it's certainly funny to find yourself buying companies you don't know anything about how to run or what to do, but you know that they can't be allowed to go away. First thing we had to do was put a floor under that, triage it. And when he went to see the old ladies, Rose Tout and Eve Lazaro, they said, well, what makes you think you're qualified to buy this company and manage it? And he said, well, I don't have any qualifications to do that, but I know I do have good taste.

Dennis Scully (49:50)

And he did have good taste, and he seems to have passed that on to you. So you've got that leg up. The question is, I mean, in thinking about you, does this lead you closer to the dream of getting away from being in the service industry?

David Netto (50:10)

Well, that's not a dream. I say it's a dream. Dream to be. To be sort of.

Dennis Scully (50:15)

No, listen, it's every designer's dream. Are you kidding me, David?

Fred Nicholas (50:18)

You are not.

David Netto (50:19)

I said it every. Okay, you're saying that. I'm not saying.

Dennis Scully (50:22)

I'm saying that. I'm saying every designer I talk to tells me, listen, what side business can I create to get right, to get one day?

David Netto (50:30)

It's true. Okay, so. Because it's simply smarter that when you have a mold and you make cakes in the mold, that can go on when you turn the lights out and gone home. Whereas when you are a decorator, as much as we cherish that profession and the success that it's conferred upon me and the wonderful relationships with clients who are so wonderful that many of them are my friends, that is selling the hours you have in the day you're like a plumber or a dentist. Your name is on the door. And you cannot build wealth equity in a business like that. Okay, so this is a funny bookend to what I just said and what you just said. After my father did go and buy Countenitut as Sister Parrish's suggestion, I think 12 years later or something, he sold it to Colfax and Fowler, which was a very visible deal. And Sister Parrish buttonholed him at another cocktail party and said, will you tell that guy to buy my company, too? And my father did tell David Greene, the owner of Colfax and many other businesses at that point that Sister Barris was interested. And he said, well, please ask her. What, in fact, would I be buying? And that's a funny story. But it's also the dilemma of when you're a designer, you can't sell anything but your name and your hours unless you have a product line. So maybe this is a step in the road to that, but I'm not the world's greatest businessman. But there's a symbiosis here in that I needed these rugs to do the kind of rooms that I need to do to be the person who I must be, design wise, this couldn't be allowed to go away. But if we also get a forecastable income stream out of it and we're not running around calling people up, asking them to work harder to pass the co op board faster so that we could get started on their apartment, that would be a relief. That's an upside to.

Dennis Scully (52:36)

Well, and I'm sorry that this comes at a time where we have to worry about tariffs as well. We're bringing in product from overseas.

David Netto (52:42)

No, no, we don't. No, we don't.

Dennis Scully (52:45)

You figured that out already. Wait, here we go.

David Netto (52:47)

Right. Because here's what I figured out, all right? I'm worried about things I actually can control. When it's something I can't control because it's a chaos machine, I ignore it.

Dennis Scully (53:01)

Yes.

David Netto (53:02)

And I never brought that word up in a negotiation and I never mentioned it to the factory owner. I am sidestepping that whole thing because I happen to think I can't do anything about it. So I might as well not let it disrupt my plans. What I do think might have happened to the two other suitors for this company is that the tariff issues made them go away because it certainly has paralyzed American M and A momentum. And most people would either use it as a negotiating tactic to offer less in the climate of uncertainty or just Walk away and fold their arms and wait and see what was going to happen at six months. So the tariffs may inadvertently have created the opportunity that led to me being able to buy Woodard. Maybe. I'm pretty sure I'm probably the only person who never brought it up.

Dennis Scully (53:50)

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is what turned off the other potential suitors who might have, in fact, originally thought it was coming from America just because of the look and feel and where.

David Netto (54:00)

As I certainly did.

Dennis Scully (54:01)

As you certainly did.

David Netto (54:02)

Yeah.

Dennis Scully (54:03)

Yeah.

David Netto (54:05)

So what's your advice for me? Because you're smart and you've seen it all. What should I be careful of? What should I look for? What should I prioritize?

Dennis Scully (54:15)

Well, I think you build on that core base, that audience that already loves it. I think you go far and wide telling them, guess what? It's back and better than ever. And what else can I do for you? And I think with the great customers, you say, what else do you wish we had? What other extent? Right. You want to get into that? Reach all those top customers, get them on the phone. All those top customers, like, what order did you almost place with that? You didn't. Because we didn't have this or that.

David Netto (54:43)

Communications, yes. Outreach and communications.

Dennis Scully (54:46)

Absolutely.

David Netto (54:46)

Well, one thing that Instagram has done organically for this project so far is lots of people are sending me their pictures of their Woodard weave rugs.

Dennis Scully (54:56)

Love it.

David Netto (54:56)

In their homes, in their staircases or whatever, and then saying, this rug was discontinued. Would you consider reviving this pattern? Or saying, we love this, we want to replace this rug. It's getting a little threadbare. Can we get this one? And then I go into a meeting and say, have we discontinued this? When did we discontinue this? Do we still have the capacity to bring this back? And based on seeing the pictures, I think I'm going to launch an Instagram campaign that says, show me your Woodard maybe, or something like that. Based on the pictures, you can see when something's a good idea. Because when you're looking at a small square tile in a catalog full of same size images, it actually is hard to see what something really looks like.

Dennis Scully (55:37)

No, no, absolutely. And also, as you talked about earlier, you've got this great archive. You know, you've got some things that, as you say, you might want to bring back. And then I think you just, you bring some other people in, let them look at these archives and say, oh, this could be this, this could be that. I mean, we know some of the People, that would be great to see it. I'd love for Dara Camponicro to see the archive. I'd love for Wright. And just imagine where it could go. And as I say, I think it's. It is a beloved American brand that could go many places beyond just the stairs and the rug by the stairs that we've talked about.

David Netto (56:20)

I'm so glad we agree.

Dennis Scully (56:21)

Yeah, no, no, I'm excited about it, David, and we'll talk more about it and I'm eager to help you in any way that I can, but I'm excited about it.

David Netto (56:29)

I already have. Dennis, I always feel better after talking to you.

Dennis Scully (56:39)

And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?

Fred Nicholas (56:47)

Wouldn't be a Thursday show if I didn't shout out Substack in some way.

Dennis Scully (56:50)

I thought you might.

Fred Nicholas (56:51)

You knew it'd be coming. There was just kind of a. So the substack for Scale, which is one of my favorite design ones, did a print edition, you know, in. In collaboration with Shop Shelter and you know, first of all, just a general shout out to For Scale. It's a great publication. The print print thing is a fun read. There was a really funny little like, you know, it's mostly dedicated to like, I guess you could call it cultural coverage or you know, criticism and commentary. But there was a great little kind of scoop buried in one of the interviews, which is that Julio Torres, do you know him? Dennis, you've heard of Julio Torres?

Dennis Scully (57:21)

Yeah, sure.

Fred Nicholas (57:21)

Yeah, it's an amazing comedian, really. One of the best, like SNL writers and has his own great career career is collaborating with this company called Sabai, which is a cool, you know, Brooklyn based furniture company. And I, I'm not sure either party wants that to be known, but it was in for Scale, so we're going to mention it. I really cannot wait to see because Julio Torres is just such an interesting figure. Sabai is a cool company and I'm really excited to see what that looks like later on in the year. But to bring it down a notch, I. I've been noticing recently AI deep fakes kind of shoot showing up in our world. And I think the fear when they started to, you know, hit the market was that like someone would start a diplomatic incident by making it seem like, you know, a country's leader said something, you know, incendiary. But I think what's, what's proved to be the case is largely that, like, you know, when you see, like a political leader say something that they obviously didn't say, it's relatively easy to fact check that. Right. So that hasn't come to pass. But what has happened is that like, kind of on the smaller, more cultural, like, niches figure level, people put out these deep fakes and they get passed around a lot. Like, I saw one recently where it was like, Jerry Saltz, the art critic from New York magazine, was deep faked into saying something weird. And more recently, Anna Wintour was like, deep faked into saying, like, why she didn't invite Trump to the Met Gala, which was a complete fabrication. But several people I know shared it just because I think it was like, oh, it's a compelling idea for them. And so, you know, it didn't look too close closely at it. And I don't know, I, you know, I think we're a ways off from people using it to, you know, put words in the mouth of, you know, Jamie Drake or anything. But I, I do think it's a reminder of, like, what a weird, you know, media timeline we're in and also a, you know, reminder to be mindful of everything that you see. And double check, because these are very convincing. When I first saw the Annie Wintour thing, I was like, oh, did she really say that? That's weird. Like, I, I believed it right off the bat. It wasn't until I kind of looked into it that I realized what was on. Going, going on. Be vigilance.

Dennis Scully (59:10)

Yes. Yes.

Fred Nicholas (59:11)

You see an AI. Deep fake of me praising Ivory Boucle. No, it's. No, it's a deep fake.

Dennis Scully (59:17)

We'll know for sure.

Fred Nicholas (59:18)

What caught your eye this week, Dennis?

Dennis Scully (59:20)

A couple things that I wanted to. To shout out. One was a big hire from RH was announced. They. They're bringing back Lisa Chi, who used to work for them a few years back. She is coming back now as the co chief, chief merchandising and creative officer as well as being made a president at the company. And it's, it's both a big loss for our house where RH poached her because she had had quite an impact at our house. And, and it's also a big, it's a big feather in RH's cap because there is the, the perception that RH is eager to continue to move the product higher and higher up that luxury, Luxury mountain. Fred. Which we haven't made talking about in a while. Yeah. So I mean, I, I think this is an indication that the product is, is very much on their mind, despite everything else that has been going on for them, the challenges that they've been facing. But this was a, this was a big announcement and as I say, good for them and not so great for our house. So we'll have to, we'll have to see what shakes out there.

Fred Nicholas (60:27)

I love that we, we have our own Hatfields and McCoys story in the home retail industry.

Dennis Scully (60:34)

Very much so. It's interesting. The other thing that caught my eye and I'm very excited about is one of my favorite people, favorite designer, favorite human. Bella Mancini is making her appearance on Caitlin's Trade Tales podcast this week. So I want everyone to go and listen to that because Bella is a smart, thoughtful, and just lovely person. So enjoy that. Yeah, Bella's great, right?

Fred Nicholas (61:01)

Absolutely.

Dennis Scully (61:02)

All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend. We'll be off for Memorial Day holiday, but we'll be back with you on Thursday.