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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Designers are grappling with the ethics of AI. Plus: The story of Chasing Paper
01:12:44
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Elizabeth Rees, the founder of Chasing Paper, joins the show to tell her company's story and talk about its new fabric line.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Elizabeth Reese of Chasing Paper about her company's new fabric line. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including a big fundraise for Ernesta, the ethics of AI and whether Instagram has ruined interior design. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:36]
A
Great. Long time no see.
- [00:38]
B
I know. It's been all of, what, three hours since I saw you last at the New York Design center for the Women in Design event, and you had an excellent panel. It was a banger.
- [00:48]
A
It was a hop and scene for the Women in Design at the New York Design center, and lots of people turned out for the stellar panel with Annabel Selldorf and Wendy Goodman and Emma Finch and Sheila Bridges. It was a lively, fun conversation.
- [01:03]
B
Yes, I. I know at 9:30 in the morning, which is normally a time in which I am not at the New York Design center, but for that panel, I will make the trek uptown. And yeah, it was a great panel. Lots of interesting insight. So much wisdom, especially from Wendy Goodman. I love. She's such a warm and wise person. I feel like she's kind of like my design industry guru, although I don't think she knows that. So I'll have to reach out to you.
- [01:27]
A
She does now.
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B
Yes, exactly. But, yeah, it was kind of funny, though, because there was so much wisdom on the panel. And then the very last question you asked people was like, so what should we do about AI taking over everything? And all these incredibly accomplished people are like, I don't know. So I'm glad we're all in the same boat.
- [01:43]
A
At the very least, everyone trying to
- [01:46]
B
figure it out in real time. Exactly. Well, let's quickly look back on Monday's episode. A conversation with interior designer Jeffrey Bilhuber.
- [01:53]
A
Fun chat indeed. Great stories, great perspective. And hearing the history of him getting started and some of the incredible people that have come through his office over the years, it was quite fun. And he had quite a few things he wanted designers today to know. Yes.
- [02:10]
B
Yeah. There was this incredible cri de corps in the middle of the episode. I mean, Jeffrey's a passionate guy, so it was maybe not surprising, but it really reached this fever pitch in the middle of this episode. I thought we could just play this clip because it's almost like a scene from a movie like Field of Dreams or something like that. Let's hear it.
- [02:30]
A
You need to know what a box pleat is. You need to know what a kiss pleat is. You need to know what a Hadley pleat is. You need to know what a top stitch is. You need to know what saddle stitching is. You need to know, you know how long a hem should be. You need to know how long a break should be on the floor. If it's a curtain or tight, something should be sewn. If it's a bed skirt, you need to know the content and the fill of every cushion and every pillow of every headboard you make.
- [03:00]
B
It's incredible. That's like from Dead Poets Society. I feel like I want to get up on the top of my desk
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A
and captain my captain.
- [03:06]
B
Yes, that's gotta be a T shirt or a poster. But yeah, that was a very inspiring conversation on many levels.
- [03:13]
A
It was, and it was really great to get to speak to him. And many listeners might not realize that there was a time where Jeffrey Bill Huber was the quintessential American designer. There aren't too many designers who were a guest on the Charlie Rose show, but he was that big a part of the cultural conversation back in the day, and so it was great that he was able to make the time to speak with me and I appreciate it greatly. I hope listeners will get a lot out of it and know what a Hadley pleat is. For heaven's sakes.
- [03:45]
B
Exactly.
- [03:46]
A
Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Newport Brass. Since 1989, Newport Brass has been handcrafting solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures in California. Combining timeless design with exceptional quality. With complete collections spanning traditional to modern and 22 finish options across every product, Newport Brass gives designers and homeowners unmatched creative freedom to make a space that's uniquely theirs. Each piece is built to feel substantial in the hand and look beautiful in the home. Designed for today and made to last for generations. Visit newportbrass.com to explore their full portfolio and to discover craftsmanship that stands the test of time. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art collections. Grounded in ethical production, innovative craft and meticulous design, laloy is known for its strategic planning and the past year has been no exception with their focus on expanding inventory and strengthening manufacturing partnerships abroad. As a family run company built for the long haul, laloy continues to invest in product innovation, operational scale and the employees who serve its retail and design partners every day to connect with a dedicated Laloy, sales representative visit laloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com. And we're back. First up, Fred, a quick tariff update.
- [05:37]
B
Yes, again, please do not turn off the show. This will be fast. The U.S. customs agency is readying a system to refund tariffs in as soon as 45 days. But not everyone's holding their breath. More and more home companies are suing the government directly. It's a growing list. Flexsteel, Kravitz, Simple Human, abc, Stone, Kirkland, you and I are putting our own lawsuit together to get the time back that we've spent talking about tariffs I think we should sue the government for. But what do you think of 45 days? That's really the news here.
- [06:07]
A
That really makes it sound as though something is going to happen. I find myself feeling, and I don't know how you feel, far less skeptical about some amount of money being paid back. Whether it's going to be 130 or 170 billion, I don't know. But I suddenly find myself feeling like, yes, they realize some repayment mechanism and structure needs to be put up and it's happening. What do you think?
- [06:35]
B
Yeah, it's funny because last week I think I said something like the government is not going to set up a Venmo account to pay you back from the tariffs. But it sounds like they are working on, I don't know if it's a Venmo account, but some kind of system. You know, you mentioned 170 billion. It's like 53 million shipments, $166 billion is what they're looking at. There was some as part of a court case around this customs guy said something like it would take more than 4 million hours of paperwork to go through all of it. So I think they're coming up with a system to ideally pay some of it back. There's this complicated process around what's called liquidation and tariffs. They're trying to beat the clock on that. I don't know. I'm a little more optimistic that people are going to see some of their money back. I think it's just tough because in this day and age, there's always this sense that somehow the administration is going to change the game at the last second, but it seems more likely than ever.
- [07:25]
A
I agree. I mean, I noticed that a lot of the legal sites talk about the many ways that they can continue to postpone and drag this out. And I found myself thinking, was it Irving Picard? Was that the poor guy who had to work on getting all the Bernie Madoff money back in the day. And remarkably, he got almost all the money back to all of the investors. And I thought, let's get Irving Picard on the phone and just have him sort through all the home industries tariff complaints and go, yes, we're going to get you this money back. I do. All joking aside, I do feel as if there is some kind of forward momentum here. And the Supreme Court decision is just weighing so heavily and is so serious that the administration even seems to be changing their language about whether or not it's really going to happen. So, I mean, I don't want to get people overly hopeful that they're going to get all those hundreds of millions and billions back, but something's moving forward.
- [08:20]
B
Yeah, if we show up at High Point Market and everyone's driving like everyone's driving a Bentley, we'll know what they spent the tariff refund money on. Interesting story. We'll definitely, definitely check in on that 45 days soon.
- [08:30]
A
We will stay close to that one. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about Ernesta. The rug company founded by Former Peloton CEO John Foley has raised another round. This time it's $20 million, bringing the total fundraise to 45 million. What do we think, Fred?
- [08:47]
B
We think that's a lot of money. Just to roll it back a little bit. Ernest is a really interesting company because, you know, as you mentioned, it was founded by the former Peloton CEO John Fol. the time of its launch, there was a lot of head scratching, I think, in the industry of. Okay, the guy who started Peloton is starting a rug company and he raised $25 million to do it. Like, what is this exactly? You know, the rug industry is very fragmented. I mean, most companies don't even make $25 million, let alone raise $25 million to get started. So there was a lot of interest and confusion and skepticism, frankly, when this company first launched. Here we are four years later, and I think, you know, Ernest has grown. I did an interview with John for an article in Boh. He says game profitable this year. They have four showrooms. They want to spend this new 20 million on getting to 30 showrooms nationwide by the end of next year. I'm sure there's still some skepticism in the rug world about Ernesta, but it has grown and with $20 million, it'll grow more.
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A
Well, and that's the idea. Yes. So they're raising this money to scale up to a Bunch of new showrooms. What did John have to say?
- [09:56]
B
Yeah, I think there's a couple things they want to spend the money on. As I said, 30 sherms by 2027. That would be a. They have four right now. So 26 showrooms in a year and change is certainly an ambitious goal. But I think at the very least, they want to grow the physical retail footprint. They also want to spend their money on technology. They're a direct to consumer company, essentially, and so they work with outside providers to actually make the rugs, to bring them in and then cut them. And so I think they want to spend the money on software that does a more efficient tetrising of the broad loom rug into a custom shape. They're working with service providers locally, so it's not just selling direct to consumers. So it's a lot of kind of technology undergirding their sales process. And I think that's what they want to spend the money on. What the company really is starting to remind me of, and I don't know if this rings true for you, is the shade Store. It's like you take this category that's been very dispersed, a lot of different players, very fragmented. You just super focus on, can we win? In custom rugs, you get small showrooms, you make a lot of them. You try and just win the category and be the name in a niche category and kind of grow that way. What do you think of that comparison?
- [11:07]
A
I think it's a good one. And I think as you said earlier and as I've talked about with John as well in the past, this hugely fragmented market with some enormous players in the space, but that aren't doing the very specific things that he's doing and how he's packaging it and putting product around it. I think there is an opportunity to get in there and take some market share. And I think that again, whether this is disruption or whether this is just taking a piece of the pie from a lot of the big players, I think there is opportunity, clearly.
- [11:43]
B
And I do think certainly when you raise a lot of money, there's the risks of this expectation of paying the investors back. That's definitely a challenge. It's just frankly, not a great time to be growing a home company. I think it started in 2022, which was the tail end of the big COVID pandemic home boom. And I think that maybe the bet here is simply like, at some point the market's going to have to turn around, so we're going to spend the money now we're going to get as big as we can and when the market really the housing market really takes off, then we're going to grow like a rocket. I think the point John made was like the investors are seeing that we're profitable and growing even under difficult circumstances. So if things turn around, guess what we can do then? But.
- [12:25]
A
Well, exactly. That's what I was wondering if it was. Oh, we've managed to do as well as we've done in this very challenging environment as we talk about all the time on this show. And it's easy to imagine one John's track record of raising money is pretty impressive. I forget the hundreds of millions, if not billions that he raised back in the peloton days. But I think it is easy to say to your point, we've done this well so far in such a challenging environment. Imagine if it does start to turn just as we're rolling out more locations. But as you say, we always get a little bit nervous in the home industry when another venture capital backed company is raising some more money and is being pushed to grow as we assume those investors want John to hurry up
- [13:10]
B
and well, if you think 20 million is a lot of money, I just found out that Quince raised $500 million just today. So maybe, I don't know, maybe ventures putting money back into the sector. But we'll certainly have to follow this one. I mean, another thing of course, is that they've grown with designers too. I mean, I think a big push, you know, early on I think it was supposed to be a consumer company, but as everyone who comes into the space realizes that designers are the best customer and I know that they're focused on them, so we'll have to see how that plays out too. But definitely interesting company and one to watch.
- [13:39]
A
I agree. And to your earlier point, that certainly was the Shade Stores playbook as well, and it seems to have worked out very well for them. So one to watch. We'll keep talking about it. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about the ethics of AI.
- [13:53]
B
Fred yes, as artificial intelligence becomes a daily tool for designers and some podcasters, many are grappling with how to use it ethically and safely. Jen Fernandez, an editor here, wrote a great piece on businessofhome.com about it. We read it. What do we think about it?
- [14:08]
A
Dennis well, I mean, I think it was a great piece for a lot of different reasons and I think she raised a lot of important issues and talking points that we should get into.
- [14:20]
B
Yeah, I know, it's funny, the discussion about AI can be so polarized. It's like, either it's going to make the world the best place ever, or we're all going to die. And I think it's really important to step back, take a deep breath, and kind of get into the weeds of how people are using it and not just talk about, oh, here's a cool hack, here's a cool trick, but what are the risks? What are a way to responsibly integrate this into your business? And I think right off the bat, the biggest reminder to me was that the safety issue, I think you get so into this, oh, here's what the technology can do. I'll just dump all my QuickBooks into ChatGPT. And I don't know that there's an example of someone's private data getting revealed in an explosively horrible way by putting it into ChatGPT. But I do think it's just early on enough in the technology that you want to be really careful about putting sensitive information into these engines. What do you think about that?
- [15:12]
A
I agree, and I think we've had this conversation in the past, but it is not Google. And I think that there's just people like, oh, yeah, I know what to do with this. I'll just share everything about my company or my home address and my bank accounts. I mean, people are using it for so many different reasons, and everything that we know so far is that that is just further helping to train these models. And we don't know what the final use of that information that many people are providing to it will be.
- [15:42]
B
Yeah, and I mean, I don't want to overstate it because again, I don't think there's been a specific instance of this data slipping out into the world and causing so many deep problems. Now, there may be some story that has happened, but I don't know that it's like a huge problem, but it's a risk. You know, that's. That's the thing. What if this information becomes, of course, what if it's not as safe?
- [16:00]
A
Yes.
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B
And so you definitely need to think about that, you know, when you're dumping your client's information into it. And I myself, I mean, this is something I need to think about for myself. I mean, I remember one time when I was, you know, just discovering what ChatGPT was. I, like, put my credit card statement into it and I was like, generate a picture of what you think I look like based on my credit card statement, which was the dumbest and most useless possible thing I could have done.
- [16:22]
A
See that picture, Fred?
- [16:24]
B
I'll send it to listeners if you DM it was a very like pretentious hipster guy with a expensive coffee is what it was. But I definitely should not have done that and certainly do not do that with your client's information. But yeah, so that's a big one. And then Jen also touched on a topic that we sometimes don't talk about enough really, which is the environmental impact of AI. And I remember early on there was all these stories about how every query to an AI engine takes up this much water and uses up this much energy. I think it's really difficult to compartmentalize it down to that exact okay, I asked ChatGPT one thing so that that's 10 gallons of water I dumped in the street. But certainly there is an environmental impact and I don't know, it's kind of important to keep in the back of your head. I struggle with how to think about that though. I don't know if you do too.
- [17:09]
A
I do, and I am chastised on the regular by some listeners and people who are avid readers of Business of Home, saying that I don't drive this point home enough. But the environmental impacts are real. And listen, we're talking about several different things. The water issue is hugely important and a component of the whole data center structure that makes AI possible. But also we've started to hear and see in so many communities the increase in people's electric bills and energy costs and there's just a huge environmental impact with what needs to be built out to make AI possible. And the water shortage issue is starting to show up as one of the big hot button issues. But the energy issue is also related to that, so it's not coming for free is the point.
- [18:02]
B
Yes, but we need all that energy to generate pictures of what I look like for my credit card statement.
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A
Exactly.
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B
As is often the case with environmental issues, it's like I don't know how to think about it beyond sagely pointing out that yes, there is a huge impact there. Some designers talk about limiting their usage of it, not willy nilly dumping everything into AI. I think that's probably a good idea no matter what because it can become a crutch. But I'm a little bit at a loss as to how any individual designer can think about the environment impact of their work. But I think at the very least you should be informed about what it is, read articles and think about how that relates to your own practice. I think. Lastly, Jen touched on this sort of more amorphous problem of understanding how to set boundaries around, well, what do you actually use AI for? How much is too much, how much is enough? And I don't know that there's one answer, but I loved hearing from all the designers who had different kind of rules they set around AI within their business. What did you think?
- [18:58]
A
I agree. And I think that the issue around boundaries is so interesting because I think some people that I talk to say that they don't want to start just mindlessly using this tool and not thinking about things, not really processing it in their own mind. Wendy Goodman, in the panel discussion just today, was talking about a huge project that she's working on, and she's got five books in front of her, and she feels like, yes, because that's helping me to sort of think and really go through this in great detail. And as we know, AI could take all of that and kind of spit out your answer very quickly and easily. And I can see people saying, why don't I just do that instead of thinking about it perhaps as long and hard as they otherwise might.
- [19:46]
B
Yeah. And that's. That's the fundamental problem with the technology, is that it can provide you with an answer very quickly. But because you don't go through the mental processing of coming up with the answer, then you know, you didn't grow, you didn't learn along the way. And I think that's kind of the problem with the technology. And again, I don't know that there really is an answer exactly here. I think people have to sort of figure out their own boundaries. But I loved. There was, I think, an architecture designer in Tom Kligerman's firm who was talking about, we have a rule of nothing that goes out the door. Nothing we show to a client or a collaborator. Everything has to be generated by a human. We can't just show an AI. Even if it's just an idea for something, we have to be the ones to generate that sketch. So we can use AI internally as part of our brainstorming process. But nothing that goes out the door can be generated by AI. Now, that rule may not be right for your firm, but I think thinking about boundaries and rules helps you sort of understand what am I actually using this tool for? What do I find valuable? And as it progresses, I think having those boundaries are going to be more and more helpful in shaping your usage.
- [20:46]
A
Sometimes we get so enthusiastic, to your point, Fred, about how much it can do for you, and it's gotten so much better than Even eight months ago when you were uploading your Visa bill.
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B
Let's keep going back. I'm so glad I brought that up. I think it's gonna be a multi episode art.
- [21:03]
A
We are so gonna be doing callbacks on that. I can't wait. Might be a standalone show, but I do think that the fact that it is moving so rapidly and is learning so quickly and is becoming integrated in so many parts, it was fascinating in that room at the New York Design center when I asked for a show of hands of how many people were using AI and you and I talked about the early surveys where people say, oh, maybe 10%. I mean, that was a huge portion of that room. Had their hands go up. And these are people in the design industry who are using it in one way or another and I think aren't going to be going back. So the boundaries issue, I think is very real and the impact that it's going to have.
- [21:44]
B
Absolutely, yeah.
- [21:45]
A
No, it's an important conversation and it was a great piece. I'm so glad that we're talking about it and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about it. But in the meantime, we're gonna move on and talk about design photograph. So this week, our producer Caroline Burke wrote an excellent article for Business of Home exploring a surprising trend. Designers and brands are putting more and more people in their photo shoots. Humans making a comeback. Fred, I love this.
- [22:10]
B
We're back, baby. Yeah, this was interesting. I mean, I've actually long been obsessed with this issue and I think Caroline was so clever to come up with this article because, for example, I just got the new RH catalog, for example. You open an article up, nary human insight in that catalog. I mean, there's photos of the artisans, but like, you know, and that's just standard in the design industry. It's like, you know, we create these incredibly beautiful worlds, but there's no, there's no people in them. And it's always been sort of an interesting conundrum for me. Why is that? When do you put a person in a photo shoot? Like, what kind of person? And you know, I think Caroline's article, which is, I first of all recommend people just read it. But it's an interesting exploration of that phenomenon and why it might be changing.
- [22:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because the shelter magazines have long taken a position one way or another, happy to show celebrities in their homes. But otherwise a lot of the editorial, well, would be much like product catalogs. It would just be room shots. And my understanding About Paige Rentz, since we were recently Talking about the AD100 list and your excellent piece about that, my understanding is that Paige Rents didn't want to have people in room shots because she wanted the reader to be able to imagine themselves in those rooms, and so she didn't want to populate them that way. But I think there have been a lot of different reasons why both brands and publications have shied away from humans.
- [23:40]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think like, the other problem with, you know, design magazines is that sometimes the homeowner just doesn't want to be pictured, you know, with a celebrity. It's like, of course they're going to be in the shot for individual people. Sometimes they're a little, you know, protective of their privacy. Understandably. So there's lots of reasons why that's the case. But when it comes to brand photo shoots, you know, as Caroline pointed out in her piece, sometimes it's just the expense. And I actually hadn't thought about this, but, you know, you think about like a fashion photo shoot, you just have to send the clothes to somewhere beautiful. You have to hire a beautiful person to wear them. You know, that's, that's expensive. But you don't have to like move like 50 sofas to, you know, to a house in the Bahamas and that, you know, and, you know, brands are operating on a relatively thin margin as it is. And so adding in the expense of a model on top of that is sometimes just simply too much. And the other part of it is just like it's sort of an awkward fit because especially at the high end, what you're selling is elevated design and a very sophisticated aesthetic. So what kind of person do you have just like sitting in your love seat? It's like Caroline quoted this guy who's talking about, well, do you want a model in a Oscar worthy ball gown just kind of sprawl that on the sofa? Not really. It's always been kind of an awkward fit. So especially at the high end, you just haven't seen that many people because of that fundamentally weird little challenge. And I think that it's been surprising to see more and more people popping up among high end brands.
- [25:02]
A
I agree. Well, that's why I was so surprised and in a way delighted to see the campaign that our house launched. I want to say in the past month or so, they've been creating all of these very fun images with not just people, but clearly creating characters for them. There's a fun dog who wears a scarf and there's, there's people who are sort of eccentric and interesting characters and they're, they're talking about this notion of defying the ordinary. And I think part of what they're suggesting in defying the ordinary is taking that risk of showing people. And I think also to your point, maybe they're saying, okay, well, one of our big competitors isn't showing people. Maybe, maybe we can right inside the
- [25:49]
B
our House boardroom, we're going to beat him with people. Well, I mean, it's interesting, like, and it's funny because I was delighted by that our House campaign as well. But you know, one of the weird things about it though is that, and I think this is another reason why people don't necessarily use people in photos of furniture is that it kind of draws attention. Like you, you're looking at the person. You know, a lot of your focus is like, oh, look at that cool dog and that interesting gentleman. You know, and then I think that, like, I think the average human attention doesn't go to furniture. My attention usually does, but the average person is like, oh, there's a person, I'm going to look at them. And it's maybe harder to get them to look at what's around the person. And so, I don't know, it's a delicate balance to walk. But as Caroline mentioned in the piece, I think what's changed and why there are more people is just that it's social media basically. Really. So much of what we see every day is user generated content. It's just people posting images and they're usually posting images of themselves. They're posting images of themselves in their sofas, at their dining room tables. And I think that it just starts to look kind of stale and stiff if you just post a beautiful photo of a chair and nothing. And it just starts to feel a little bit weird compared to the vast majority of the images that people are looking at which have people in them.
- [27:00]
A
And do you think also, I mean, we're joking, but really, do you think that more and more companies are trying to sort of be a cheerleader for humans in a way? I don't know. I mean, I can't, I can't separate all this AI conversation from, hey, but let's remind people, because you talk to so many, and part of the reason that I think this is you talk to so many artisans and you talk to so many designers that say, oh, well, the humans will be so important because X we can do this and we can do that. And you almost feel like some people are having to make the case for the future of humans. And so I don't think. I'm not really joking when I say that some marketers, I'm sure, want to make people feel better by, oh, let's remind them people are hanging in there, though, you know, they're facing.
- [27:52]
B
Another conversation from the Our House boardroom is let's remind our audience that people exist. I mean, to take a different version of that, I think that's right. But I think it comes down to more that because you can generate beautiful imagery with AI and the Internet is flooded with it, you need a way to distinguish your image from all the rest of the AI slop. And what's a good way to do that? Put a recognizable person in there. Now, of course, AI can generate images of people too, but I think it's harder. And I think that, like, generally speaking, if you have, like, a video of someone you know jumping onto your sofa or using your table, you know, your brain is like, okay, that's real. That's not random AI slop. So, you know, whether, you know, our house putting a person in its campaign is a battle against the bots, I don't know. But I do think there's a very tangible, practical thing, which is a person makes it stand out from AI slob. For the most part, yes.
- [28:42]
A
And listen, the reason that a lot of companies don't put people in is because which people and how do I show it? And what if I choose the wrong people and everyone's gotten in trouble for, oh, why'd you show this person and not that person? And so there's a lot of risks involved, which is why, in a way, going back to the Our House boardroom, I feel like creating these fictional characters, it sort of diffuses that a little bit. And so they're just telling this fun story and they're introducing these characters and, oh, by the way, most of them, not all, but most of them are humans. And so I just think there's something there. And I think we are seeing more of it in part because people want to be reminded that people are doing okay.
- [29:29]
B
Okay, that may just be you, Dennis, but it's a point well taken.
- [29:33]
A
Moving on, we're going to talk about Instagram. In fact, Fred.
- [29:37]
B
Yes. This week, a pair of articles took a hard look at the social platform and veranda Markham Roberts took aim at room scrolling. While in House Beautiful, Catherine o' Shea Evans, friend of the show, asked designers a simple question. Is Instagram ruining interior design? Yes. Was the answer no. The answer was not yes. What'd you make of these, Dennis?
- [29:56]
A
Well, I mean, I think, I think there are so many nuances here, but, but to many people, the answer was yes. In that I think it has made many aspects of working with clients what clients are seeing how the design industry is being impacted by just all of these images and often the same images. I think many people do want to say yes. It's, it's ruining it.
- [30:20]
B
Well, you put up a poll on Instagram. Did most people say yes? I mean, what was your.
- [30:24]
A
Yeah, I mean, the people that weighed in with answers either were trying to be. So Emily Sturgess, for example, weighed in and said yes, partially because clients imagination is so limited to what they see on Instagram. They want that exact room, they want that exact fabric. It stunts our creative ability to sometimes convince clients to go outside the box. And, and many designers weighed in with a similar notion. Sprague Interiors weighed in and said yes, everyone's looking at the same images and design is losing its uniqueness. Homogenization is real. And she makes the point. I want people to get inspired by a fabric or a material rather than an entire image and just say, oh, yes, I want that whole room. And I think that is very real. I think that Betsy Moyer wrote to me and said that it's definitely making trends happen faster and sort of burn through perhaps more quickly, but it is definitely making people feel as if there's this limited set of images and the world is just flatter as a result.
- [31:40]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think Markham Roberts piece. Interior designer Markham Roberts writes for Veranda Sometimes, and his piece was this sort of fun nostalgia where he was talking about when he worked for Mark Hampton back in the day, he was forced to organize Mark Hampton's magazine clippings and how that was a really menial task at the time, but it really gave him an appreciation for design. And I think it's just simply when you hold a piece of paper in your hands and you're looking at it, your attention is more focused in a way that it's not when you're frantically thumb scrolling to find the next thing that's gonna give you a dopamine hit. I think that's all very well taken. It's interesting. I feel like ever since we started doing this show, there has been a lot of, of negative sentiment towards Instagram in the design industry. I mean, in society at large. I mean, right now there's a huge trial around social media addiction and people are getting phones out of schools. And I think that this is a Much, much bigger thing in our society. And the design industry just reflects that. I think the complicated thing though is that for as much angst as there is around Instagram, it really did create the modern version of the design industry. Right. You think about how many more designers, designers are able to get their work out there, to make their voices be heard, to learn about the industry, to connect with how many jobs have been gotten on Instagram. So I've said this before on the show, but I think it's still true, is that Instagram does taketh away, we lose something to it, but it's really given a lot to the industry too. And I think that right now we're just in a weird middle time where I kind of feel like everyone's looking for the next thing. Is it substack, is it YouTube, is it TikTok? But we're all still kind of there, you know.
- [33:16]
A
Well, I think it's a great point and I don't disagree. I think it's fascinating to see the impact that Instagram has had. And you're right that so many people have been able to build entire careers and come from nowhere and just become Instagram stars and suddenly they're part of the top design lists and, and five minutes ago you didn't know who they were. And I think that's all very real. I think your point about the broader culture and how it's being impacted. We know that people consuming all of this short form video, for example, that they're consuming on Instagram is starting to have a very negative effect on people. People who are already attention challenged in our society and we're finding that they're having even shorter attentions. And P.S. you talk to designers about that and they say, yeah, yeah, I have to be so much quicker now presenting to my clients because they don't have a long attention span. But also interestingly in the media world and the magazine publishing world. And Jill Cohen often talks about this too, trying to get designers to hold off on posting something on Instagram so that we can get it in the magazine. And several people shared with me stories recently about, I was just about to get this story placed in a magazine, but the designer couldn't wait anymore and thought, oh, I'll get just as much impact by putting it up on my Instagram account. And so I moved away from that other media. And that's a huge shift as well.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, to be clear, like, I think, you know, Instagram has giveth and taketh away from designers from the design media. It is just taketh away. There is no giveth. It is very much bad for shelter media, I think, as it's replaced a lot of what it used to provide. I think it's more complicated, I think, for individual designers. But you're absolutely right. I mean, the attention span thing is very real. And it's funny, I was kind of lost in a reverie there of imagining designers having to do TikTok dances to sort of present their fabric. Let me present this to you in a medium you understand. I'll do a dance trend around your fireplace tile choices. I don't know. It's tough. I think you also run the risk when you're talking about this stuff of remember when kind of overly indulging in nostalgia. And I think I'll I'll end my thoughts on this matter by quoting the great Wendy Goodman, my design guru, even though she doesn't know it, when she said you have to be of your time. I think it's only so good to think about the way things used to be. And that doesn't necessarily mean that we don't need to change. We don't need to try and wean ourselves off Instagram. I'm all for that, but I think we just have to accept that this is the reality of the moment and do the best we can within it.
- [36:01]
A
All of these conversations around AI and Instagram aren't going away, and it is having a huge impact, but we have to figure out how to deal with it. And so we talk it through on the Thursday show and hopefully that helps. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a roundup of the latest industry hires and advice from Sean Lowe on mixing business and politics. But first, a quick break. This spring, laloy heads to High Point Market Market with an exciting lineup of new introductions, including a debut rug collection featuring a groundbreaking new construction along with a beautiful new season from Rifle Paper company. They're also hosting exclusive showroom events, including one with designer Amber Lewis. If you're attending High Point, book an appointment or connect with your Laloy sales representative@leloyrugs.com that's Loloi rugs.com Newport brass, the Premier maker of solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures has recently expanded their product portfolio with ultra thin showerheads, additional lavatory offerings, and new kitchen extensions in their celebrated Taft and Haney collections. These expansions give designers and homeowners even more flexibility to create truly bespoke, luxurious spaces that Are built to last. Visit newportbrass.com new to learn more. And we're back. I'm joined now by the founder of Chasing Paper, Elizabeth Reese. Elizabeth, so glad to finally have you on the show.
- [37:49]
C
Oh my gosh, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [37:52]
A
Well, I'm delighted. And we have a lot to talk about, including some new things that you're working on that we'll get to. But tell people who might not be familiar the story of Chasing Paper.
- [38:05]
C
Absolutely. Chasing Paper is a wall coverings brand that started way back in 2012 when I had. Yes, yes, we're about to turn 13. We've officially launched in 2013. But in 2012 I was just a young girl living in New York City and it was really an interesting time to sort of come up in New York because at that time, let take you Back to the 2010, there was a huge democratization, especially in our area in design and also in direct to consumer as well. A lot of people were just taking sort of the ownership into their own hands, which was such an exciting time. We were watching companies on a direct to consumer side, you know, like a Harry's or you know, things like that where they were saying we don't need to, you know, go through these other industrial middleman.
- [38:55]
A
We were spending that time getting rid of the middleman, right?
- [38:57]
C
Correct. Yes. And, and really just taking a lot of excitement and same in the design world. You know, it was the time of E. Design was really starting to take off. A lot of junior designers were saying, hey, with the onsite of social media and being able to talk to people a little bit more directly, it was just a very exciting time. And wallpaper to me, having grown up in the Midwest was always something that was like in fancy people's homes, you know, it was not something that felt like it could be for everyone. But as a renter like me and all of my friends, I was a 20 something year old living in a West Village apartment, a pre war that I could not even paint. I wanted to personalize. I wanted it to look and feel like these cool restaurants and bars and things that my friends and I frequented and peel and stick wallpaper was certainly in the market, but it was not done in a way that I thought my friends and I would buy it. And removable wallpaper had such a bad rap. People were like, oh, it's like contact paper. It's the design is really not great. And I thought there is an idea here. And we launched in 2013 and really since then it has been such an organic growth. First of all, we started with renters and just women like me, women who were living in cities.
- [40:14]
A
So what were you doing at the time when you were living in New York? What was your, what was your profession before you got into Wall Street?
- [40:21]
C
Yes, I had always been in marketing and in communication. So by trade I feel like I've always been sort of a storyteller and I got my degree in journalism. Everyone was like, you'll never use that. You know, I totally, I know I. Everyone gave me so much ingredients, best
- [40:38]
A
foundations you can have.
- [40:40]
C
I mean, all jokes aside, I genuinely believe that. I think especially in today's day and age. I know, like, I, I truly think that it helped me understand sort of how do you hook people? How do you, how do you gather a story in one headline? How do you capture people's attention quickly with which is such a huge part of building a brand and a business nowadays? So it was actually a really nice, just kind of like foray into the wallpaper world crazily enough, especially because we have always been a direct to consumer channel and at the time, and obviously this is changing now. But so much of not just in wallpaper, in textiles, in design overall was trade only and I think thought, you know, design should be for everyone and, and that is a core of chasing paper that we still really believe. And the first couple years we were only a removable wallpaper company and just growing, you know, doubling revenue each year. Just zero budget, no, you know, nothing. I mean it was just me for many years, but it was growing. So I knew that people were excited about this and that there was an idea. And then we just continued to listen to our customers. After a couple years, designers and other people would say, I love this design, but I, I. Removable wallpaper is just not for me. You know, I need something that I can, that can last longer and have more longevity. And so in 2019 we launched traditional non woven, which is obviously a paste material. And then we continued to listen and our customer was then saying, well, especially coming out of the pandemic. Well now my nine design firm, we used to just be residential, but now we're helping. We're doing restaurants and we're doing offices and people are coming back to the office and we want to use your stuff. So then we introduced two type 2 vinyl options for our consumer as well. So now we have four materials. Every single pattern comes in all four materials. So we really like to think of it as that, you know, it's for the girl who's in her first apartment in New York, it's into your forever home. It's your office. It's your small business dream of your restaurant. We can meet you sort of at any, any moment along the way.
- [42:49]
A
So the interesting. And as you say, people seem to have a notion of removable wallpaper. Right. Or peel and stick just seem to represent something negative in their mind. And was part of that because they thought, oh, well, if it's removable, then it must not stay on very long. It doesn't have great durability. Was that part of the challenge? And what is the truth around that? How does it turn out to perform?
- [43:17]
C
Absolutely. I think especially at the time, it was very similar to contact paper, but ours is actually a peel and stick fabric. So it actually has, like, a texture and a grain to it that makes it. When it's installed, you wouldn't know if it's removable or not. I mean, it's really matte, which was something that was very, very important to me. Not shiny, you know, but it was interesting, I think, because I didn't know any better. I. I called every single showroom, I think, in North America when I was starting out, and I got a no from a hundred percent of showrooms.
- [43:48]
A
So that's so interesting. So you called all these showrooms in design centers and around the country and said, hi, I've come to naivety. Yeah, no, but I love that. And so. And how would you explain it? And what would they say?
- [44:02]
C
I would just say, you know, yeah, I started this business. We're a. You know, I always would say we're a removable wallpaper company. You know, that helped to maybe take the sting of peel and stick away a little bit. And, you know, people were really gracious and really, like, the designs are really cool or good for you. You know, people were really kind, but they were like, absolutely not.
- [44:20]
A
Good for you. And thanks for calling, but no, no, thank you. We won't be seeing you anytime soon.
- [44:25]
C
100%. But also, you know what? It was great because I think hearing no also made me realize that, like, direct to consumer really was the avenue for me and that I was going to make it work. I'm. I'm a very determined Midwestern gal. So my, you know, it didn't actually really deter me. I think it actually made me, at the time, I think it helped me decide who our customer was a little bit more fervently. You know, it made me realize that, you know, the person who was buying our wallpaper was probably hanging it herself. You know, she wasn't having an installer and, and that was great because the secret to that was, you know, she was 27 when I started. She was my age or 25 or 28 around my age. But then she gets older and we have really grown with our customer, you know, so maybe she was in her twenties in the city and now she has her first home in Connecticut or Milwaukee or you know, wherever. Denver. And we've really been able to sort of seamlessly continue on with our customer through all of these different, different life milestones and moments.
- [45:30]
A
Let's talk a little bit about your family business, which I assume was helping to give you some understanding of just even how to, how to do this and how to make this happen.
- [45:39]
C
Sure. Yes. I am third generation in a commercial printing business. So when we got started, we were using equipment at our family business. Chasing Paper has always been run as a totally separate company. It always stood alone. We've always had our own P and L, which I think sometimes know. I think people make inferences that like, oh, there must have been this big cash infusion. I mean I wish, right. I wish I was babysitting at night in New York City to make my rent. No two ways about that. But you know, the printing technology and especially coming about, we've always printed digitally, which is also something at the time again back in 2012 was not super. You know, it wasn't like the way that a lot of people were creating wallpaper. It was still a lot of silk screening. And obviously digital printing has come so far even in the last decade and is now part of most wall covering companies mix now whether it's all or part just I think also too as the technology has gotten a lot better and also we know there's just so many other influences in terms of like pricing and lots of different things that companies are now under the pressure of. But yeah, so we printed and produced under my family business. And it was funny because located here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and they all thought it was the funniest thing that I was going to try to sell wallpaper on the Internet. They were like, girl, and you want to sell it for how much? I mean it was so foreign. But again, I was obviously living in New York and I think Chasing Paper was about five years old, six years old. We sort of hit an inflection point just in revenue where I was either going to have to really make some big investments in New Year York, bigger office space, more people and New York is expensive. I Don't know if you know that
- [47:32]
A
I grew up there. I'm well aware of how expensive a town it is.
- [47:37]
C
That's right.
- [47:37]
B
So.
- [47:38]
C
And you know, being obviously a Midwesterner, and at the time, my younger brother Mike was living out in Colorado, and he always had an interest in the business. I would actually fly him out for New York now to help me run my little booth when we were part of that, so that it wasn't than just me. So he was super familiar with the business and really had been like my sounding board and just always kind of a help, you know, with me as. As I was growing and building. And we both decided to make the move back to Milwaukee, and he came on as kind of our production head and operations head, and I do much more of like, the sales and marketing and creative direction. And we. We plan on carrying on our. Our family legacy, obviously in a different way. You know, we have. We've seen since bought our business out in 2021 from our family business so that we would just have more autonomy and we were able to run it on our own. But, you know, we really take taking our family legacy very seriously, and it's genuinely the greatest gift to be able to work with him.
- [48:40]
A
So you mentioned New York now, which is. Which is a trade show at the. At the Javits center, and I was wondering where you were showing up in the early days where people were discussing. So was that one of the ways that you were putting yourself out there in the early days?
- [48:55]
C
Yes, we got. There was a juried section, and I haven't been to New York now, so you might have to correct me if I'm wrong here. There used to be a juried section called Accent by Design.
- [49:04]
A
Yep.
- [49:04]
C
So you had to apply to be part of this group. And we were in such good company, you know, and. And we made it in, you know, so we got this little booth and I mean, it was just fantastic. I mean, getting to tell your story. And also too this in the early days, you're still kind of like getting your elevator pitch down. Like, what is my company in two minutes? Like, kind of. How do you hook people in? How do you get people excited watching what people gravitate towards in your booth? What questions do they ask? And, you know, New York now is a long show. It's like four days.
- [49:34]
A
And, you know, it was like me
- [49:36]
C
and my brother for like, you know, nine hours a day for four days. I mean, you're so tired after. But it was like the fastest way to learn and get questions and you know, we also realize that wallpaper is not like a wholesale. People be like, can I carry this in my store? And we tried it, but it just doesn't really work in the same way. Again with knowing that direct to consumer was really our focus. You know, we didn't have much of a budget, we didn't have much of a, you know, we didn't have really resources behind it at the, at the start. So we had to be really careful in the things that we went after. So we were really laser focused on the direct to consumer.
- [50:10]
A
Okay, so that's interesting. And that's what I wanted to better understand as well. So I'm sure you had a lot of people stopping by the booth saying, oh, I love this. I've got the cutest little shop down in Florida, can I carry X number of rolls? But you weren't set up for that margin wise. I'm assuming we tried because I just tried.
- [50:26]
C
Okay.
- [50:27]
A
Because I mean, you have had some partnerships with some big box retailers, right?
- [50:31]
C
Yes. And that is all on a drop ship basis. My entire business is set up. I print everything on demand. And I have since day one.
- [50:39]
A
Okay.
- [50:39]
C
Companies that carry inventory, I want to live inside their brain to understand. I am far too.
- [50:45]
A
How do they do that?
- [50:46]
C
That how. I mean, I am far too nervous a person to ever have to carry inventory like that. So now we have great relationships with West Elm and Creighton Kids. And we've had those relationships for so many years. And it's great because it's like there's no pressure on either side. We can just like sell wallpaper and. But yes, people would stop by and I would say, okay, I'll sell it to your small town, we're in Florida. And then it just really, what was hard is that merchandising wallpaper in a store is really hard. And unless it's, you know, installed and it's hard to tell from a small swatch or different things. And again, the margin was so challenging and we just felt like we were better suited to. But New York now is a great way to get in front of editors and also just hear the real time, you know, oh, I love this print. Oh, I wish this print was in another color. Ooh, oh, I've seen something like this. Or I wish, you know, people tell you everything. Yeah, they're very forceful.
- [51:41]
A
People don't hold back. I mean, for better or for words worse.
- [51:44]
C
Absolutely right.
- [51:45]
A
And you have to check your ego at the door because they're going to tell you what they think.
- [51:49]
C
Yes, yes, a thousand percent. But, yeah, it helped me thick up. Yeah. Make my skin a little thicker. And because I'm. I'm a Midwestern gal at heart. So that Midwestern nice, you know, sometimes just does not exist. But. But it was a great learning experience. And we did it for a couple years, really, again, just to get our name out there. And how better are you getting your name out in front of. Of thousands of people that are interested in design? So it was, it was a really wonderful experience at the start, but, you know, we really. I was young, I was footloose and fancy free. You know, I. So I said yes to everything. You want me to come hang wallpaper at a photo shoot? I'm there. You want me to come in, hang wallpaper? I mean, I did everything. I would carry a roll of wallpaper in my bag, and I took the subway everywhere, like everyone in New York. And people would ask me about it. They'd be like, what's in your bag? And I would, like, take it out. I'd be like, doing a presentation. Like, I was so embarrassing, but, like, scratch.
- [52:46]
A
But how fantastic. I mean, and isn't that how you have to be in the beginning when you're getting your business off the ground?
- [52:53]
C
I think that. I think so, yes. So it was a great time. And again, I think growing in, In a city like New York, where people are so open to, to new ideas and to learning and, you know, I think there was just a lot of excitement around that. And in, in turn, that made me more excited. And it keeps you fueled through all the days where it's really hard and, you know, you're not seeing things grow as quickly as you'd like or, you know, when you're met with the nos, all the no's of the show, you know, that buoy that buoyed me is just people's enthusiasm. And, you know, trade has always been a part of the business, but it was one that, I would say maybe four years ago, we really started to dig in on the numbers a little bit. And, you know, as acquisition costs on the retail side, which is probably why all the people that you're talking to are, are like, you know, it's because it has, it's. It's the acquisition cost and how you're able to retain and get the customers has just become more and more and more expensive. Right. And so it has to make sense. You can't get a customer for $120 when your AOV is $80. That doesn't make financial Sense. Right. You can't grow at profitably, I guess I should say you can grow in that way. But right.
- [54:02]
A
If growth is all you're interested in, you can do that all day long. Right. If someone's funding that for you. And that was what we discovered right. In so many of these D2C companies and why so many of them aren't here today.
- [54:13]
C
That's it. So you know, we've always kept again being very Midwestern, my brother and I, and I'm grateful that he shares the same, the same value is that we've always put profitability at. Like that's our North Star. We've got to be profitable. And again, it was very, very unsexy for many, many years. But now, I mean that's the only thing that matters. Matters when people are looking at the value of a company. So I think it was the right thing to bet on. But as acquisition costs have continued to creep up, trade was a segment where we were like, okay, they are repeat customers. The average order value is much higher than our consumer product and they're using our wallpaper in a different way, which is very aspirational. It's very exciting, it's very inspirational to people. And also too now, now with social media, you know, interior designers are showing all of these projects, you know, they're creating beautiful photography and video and all of the things. And so we really saw just kind of the numbers of that and we have made a lot of investments. You know, we brought on a full time person that just handles our trade segment. We have been doing design social pop ups, you know, with Brooks, that we truly have, have benefited. But what we've really seen from 24 to 25, you know, we saw a 39% growth in our trade program which to us is huge. I mean it's so exciting to see that kind of growth and showing that what we're doing and the investments that we're making into this segment are paying off. And we just want to continue to, you know, build and grow with that customer as well. So now we sort of have two customer profiles. We look at our trade customer and we look at our consumer customer customer because they're very different. You know, a trade is sending us elevations and we're helping them, you know, work through what do they need and how much and a consumer, you know, wants to be able to chat and get our input on what pattern they should use and, and different things. So it's a really different user experience and we've just really tried to focus in on what is going to make that consumer or trade member experience the best in class.
- [56:23]
A
Come back to. Let's talk about Design Social for a moment and friend of the show, Brooks Morrison. And you've been doing that for how many years have you been going to Design Social now?
- [56:32]
C
About two years.
- [56:33]
A
Okay, so you got in there and the hope was, I mean, it sounds like you've gotten as much out of just being part of the community of people showing there as the actual customer base that you've grown from that.
- [56:47]
C
Absolutely. I mean, I think think coming out of COVID everyone was just so hungry for like in person, you know, and that's why she has just what she has done has been in my mind just really like revolutionary how she does it. Because trade shows are so hard. They are very, very expensive. They're long. You have to be shift, especially for a small business, if you have a booth for four days, that's a lot of resources that you're pooling to make sure that it works. Plus they're extremely, extremely expensive. And the build out and all the other things, Brooks has done it in a way that feels like it's a day, sometimes two days. Again, she very much democratized it. It doesn't matter if you are the biggest wallpaper company in the world or the smallest. Everyone gets the same amount of space. It allows everyone to sort of show up in the same way and be on equal footing. And you get to talk to, you know, your customers in real life, off the screen, off social media, off email, connect with them, hear about their projects, what are they working on, what are they fighting, what do they need more of? You know, like we've been hearing, you know, that they need more small scale prints, you know, so then that's great for us. I mean, what better information? And you can see what, what samples do they gravitate towards, you know, so it's just been wonderful. And then I think on the other side of it that Brooks has done, maybe this isn't the most impactful thing for our business is create a community of all the vendors. You know, from the outset you think, oh, we're all competitors. But it does not feel like that in the slightest. And I don't know what magic she has sprinkled or I don't know exactly what it is, but you all eat dinner together the night before, which is so wonderful. And everyone truly shares. People are vulnerable. People say this was a great year in business. This was a tough year in business. Here's how the tariffs are affecting me. Here's how, you know, I'm shifting showrooms. Have you ever worked with, you know, all of these different things and everyone is really shows up in a way that is transparent and vulnerable and happy to help. You know, it's incredible. It's truly, truly incredible.
- [58:52]
A
I'm so glad to hear you say that. And I think that's such an important part. And one of the things that I love so much about the Design Social is that community and how helpful everybody is. Is. And, and is that part of what led to your decision to come out with fabric? Were you hanging around with the, with the fabric people and you're thinking, oh, we just got to expand this product offering? I mean, tell me.
- [59:16]
C
Well, you know, it's funny, I don't like to think that I'm a person who, you know, goes to peer pressure, but everyone there is a textile. You know, they have wallpaper, they have textiles, they have beautiful fabrics. And, you know, for a long time I just wasn't sure that it was the right time for us for fabric mostly because I know that it's going to be a trade forward offering. Every launch that we have done mostly in the past has been more consumer facing. And again, when you look at those two sort of like archetypes and customer profiles, you want it to be done in a way that really resonates with a trade customer. And I think it's just taken us time. I wanted to one, I wanted to really learn that customer. I didn't think I wanted to come out of the gate like, oh, we're new here, let's go all in. We have much more of a crawl, walk, run approach at Chasing Paper. And that goes with everything. And I think that being able to test and try and talk with the other vendors, you know, what have you seen? What do you like, take? Where's your sweet spot? What do you pay for, you know, what do you like to pay? What do you feel is equitable? What do you buy a pillow for? How often do you do a custom pillow versus a retail pillow? You know, I was asking all the questions. I don't, I don't hold back. So it was just wonderful to get just insights and advice. And again, also just what are people, what are people gravitating towards? What are they? What do they love? What do they want a sample of? So it was, it was a great, great first sort of sneak peek to get people excited.
- [60:52]
A
Interesting. And the designer collaborations that you do, I know you've worked with Max Humphrey, for example, love his wallpapers. And fabrics. Tell me how you work those and how you think about those and what they do for you.
- [61:08]
C
Yes, that has been such an incredible part of our sort of trajectory. Back in 2019, I was introduced to Ariel Okun, who has become a longtime friend and collaborator of the. And soon after was Max. And, you know, we've worked with Chango and Co. And lots of different amazing interior designers. And I think what we really saw there was that, again, they're sourcing, they're looking. They know what's not out there. And so they're able to really create a collection that feels very usable for people who want the look and the feel of a Max Humphrey. You know, they want that camp vibe or that Americana or with Arielle, that, you know, traditional with a twist. So how can we create a product that allows people to sort of buy into that aesthetic and that. That taste level and that excitement around someone's design, but without obviously having direct access to them?
- [62:04]
A
Now, Elizabeth, you. You've listened to the show, and so you know how I feel about new fabrics being introduced into the world. Is there. Is there white space? Is there room?
- [62:14]
B
You.
- [62:14]
C
You.
- [62:14]
A
You tell me.
- [62:15]
C
Well, I mean, I do think right now we are seeing a big trend in having matching textiles to the wallpaper. You know, so people have been asking, you know, they're like, we love the wallpaper.
- [62:26]
A
If only you had fabric.
- [62:27]
C
If only you had fabric. Absolutely. So, you know, that was kind of like an impetus to start it. And then it's also to, you know, as we kind of. We celebrated 10 years of chasing Paper, and then as I really thought about what It's. The next 10 years look like, and what do I. What am I dreaming? It's really to create more of, like, a layered home. You know, how can we find more places to show up in a way that's quality and then that. And that's beautiful. I don't have any expectations that it's going to be an overnight success. You know, nothing good in life or in business is that way. It's certainly something. But. But. But that's really where I see. And again, I look at a company like a Serena and Lily. You know, they started as, like, a single product company, and now we know them as this huge lifestyle brand. Not that that's the trajectory that I feel Chasing Paper is on, but I know that if you start with one thing and you do it really well and you can gain the customer's trust and, you know, you understand who they are and what they're looking for. I Think building upon that feels natural.
- [63:24]
A
So to the point about Serena and Lily, could you imagine some chasing paper retail shops pop up up around the country?
- [63:35]
C
I mean, I do not think so. Retail is so hard right now. Retail is so hard right now. And I, I. At the heart of what we do, we are a digitally native company. You know, people always say, they're like, do you have those big wallpaper books? And I'm like, no. Like we, we're always changing things online. You know, we're always changing things. We want to be nimble. We want to feel like they were always putting new things out and taking things away and having it look fresh. You know, we're, we're definitely like a new kind of wallpaper brand in the sense that there are so many, you know, storied, incredible heritage brands. So we were, we needed to do it in a new way that felt a little bit different.
- [64:13]
A
Can you imagine going back to some of the showrooms that said no in the past and letting them know, hey, guess what? I've got fabric now and you're going to love it.
- [64:23]
C
Of course, of course. I think, I think that I am very much a person who likes to validate an idea first. I, I would love to be able to go to a showroom and say like, you know, we've sold X amount of yards of this in this amount of time. I like to be able to show that. But I also know that, you know, showrooms too, it's. The margin has to work. A lot of things have to work in order for it to be like a non strained relationship. Right. You know, so I also think direct to consumer is where we live and it's what we know. So it feels like a very natural place to start.
- [64:59]
A
So many people say to me that somewhere along the way the physical presence has to happen, that the online and the D2C can only take you so far. Warby Parker's opening stores everywhere you look. Bonobos back in the day, like, he finally was like, yes, of course we need to show up physically. So, I mean, brace yourself, Elizabeth, because it seems like it will have to happen in some form and maybe you find some great partner where it makes sense for you to be together. But I can't imagine that in the next few years you're not going to have to succumb to some kind of. Right.
- [65:40]
C
I mean, I don't, I never say never to anything. You know what I mean? No, no.
- [65:45]
A
You seem like a yes person. So I feel like when the opportunity shows up. Exactly. So tell Me about the book. It sounds like it's coming out any minute.
- [65:55]
C
Yes, it comes out later this month, and we are so excited. I mean, it's really just a love letter to wallpaper. I mean, that's. It's called Wallflowers A Love Letter to Wallpaper. And that's really what it is. You know, the part one is just a little bit, hopefully not so boring history of wallpaper and just sort of like how it's sort of played a role in, like, modern day and how it's come about, a little bit about chasing paper and my story and what wallpaper means to me. And then the second part of the book is just being in conversation with different interior designers and really just showing, you know, how wallpaper has shown up sort of in the course of their life and how it shows up in design. And, you know, I think looking at all of the giants in the industry, you know, the people who have been around for centuries and who really. The ones that I look to. To so often, you know, a Schumacher, a Gracie, you know, all the big. A Thiebaud, you know, they all do books. So I said yes to this opportunity to start my own little, you know, the first of the legacy of chasing paper. And I'm so excited to be traveling this year to talk about it. And, you know, just.
- [67:06]
A
Is that what you'll be doing? You'll be doing the tour and going around and.
- [67:09]
C
Yeah, a little bit. You know, like, where I'm gonna try to kind of actually design some social has been such a great thing because I'm going to be traveling to a lot of cities this year anyway for Design Social. So we're trying to kind of like, add book stuff in there, which is great. But, you know, I also have two young, young girls, so I can't, like, just like we were saying before, you can't be everywhere to everyone all the time. But I'm going to do my very best to promote this book in the best way I can, which is really to open it up and just to say, like, everyone has these wallpaper stories, like, what are yours? And to be in conversation with people and customers. And, you know, I'm just. I'm very, very for the opportunity.
- [67:46]
A
Well, so you've got a lot going on. All right. I'm eager to see the book. I'm especially eager to see the fabric and can't wait to see where that is going to show up. I can't imagine that some showroom's not gonna want to have you. Apologies. They'll rebuild the bridge and have you in. So you'll have to let me know what happens there. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about it all. I'm delighted to get to speak with you.
- [68:14]
C
Thank you. This has been such a great honor. So I'm. I'm very grateful.
- [68:22]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [68:31]
B
Get ready. Three things caught my eye this week. I'll try and be quick. One was Kelly Werler's piano. And we got to start there. So Kelly Wersler.
- [68:39]
A
Kelly.
- [68:39]
B
Kelly Werstler designed this sort of art piano with his company Edelweiss. And sort of as a former musician when I was young and cool, I really am dying to play the Kelly Wersley piano. So hopefully that's in my future. But I just thought that was fun. Another thing is I saw a former podcast guest, John Pomp, an amazing glassblower and designer and furniture designer. He's in the new RH catalog. I don't know if he'd done a lot of work with the company before, but he is very big in the newest Rhythm RH catalog that just dropped on my doorstep. So I thought that was kind of interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing, you know, what, what that does for him and what that does for them. Finally, we talked a little bit about had Deco off. I think you and Caitlin mentioned how there might be some kind of shake up there. And there's a lot going on with that.
- [69:22]
A
Changes.
- [69:23]
B
It changes. Yes. And I just saw an email that they'd hired a new PR agency to represent them, I believe it was. That seemed to me to indicate like they're definitely, they're up to something. They're going to make some changes. They're going to publicize them. So I think Deco off is definitely a watch this space situation for next year and I'm sure we'll be talking about it in between now and then. See three things very fast, very, very speedy. Can you be as quick things that caught your eye?
- [69:49]
A
Let me see if I can be as speedy. First of all, the D and D building is going to have a new restaurant. What? I mean, how is this not the lead story on the Thursday show? I don't know, but it is. It is big news. Apparently sometime late spring of this year. Another story is what it will be called and it'll be some new dining experience and you can take out and eat in and we'll, we'll see. I'm, I'm looking forward to exploring that. And, and maybe it's tells us live
- [70:22]
B
podcasts live from the D and D restaurant.
- [70:25]
A
Why not? Why not? We'll see, we'll see if it says anything about what else is going on at the D and D building. But, but interesting to get that announcement and, and we will definitely be there when all of that happens. Speaking of being there, one of the things that I went to over the weekend was the grand opening of Williams Sonoma's newest brand, Green Row, which we've talked about in the past and we, we wrote about when it was first launched. It's the sustainability focused brand and I'm really eager for people to get down to Howard street and, and check it out. I was, I have to say I was a little bit skeptical about what it was going to look like and it was really fun and there were some really interesting products and a fun fabric collection and some wallpaper, paper and there's some interesting furniture. And it had sort of a vintage vibe to it. But, but also it definitely felt a little bit sort of Laura Ashley 2.0. As somebody shared with me, it was interesting and impressive. I'm hoping to speak to the person behind Building all of that in the coming weeks. I spent some time with her and I'm eager to hear what, what, what people think of it.
- [71:39]
B
Yeah, it's a good look.
- [71:40]
A
It's a good look, to be sure. Finally, I've got, I've got two heavy hitters coming to the New York School of Interior Design that I wanted to mention so that listeners will have a chance to get tickets. March 26th. Ken Folk is joining me for a dialogues on design at the New York School of Interior Design. And the very next week, Thursday the 2nd, none other than Amber Lewis is coming to town to, to sit down with me at the New York School of Interior Design. So I am looking forward to both of those conversations and I hope some of our listeners will be able to join us at the school as well. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at the podcast@businessofhome.com. this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.