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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Emily Henderson is flexing new muscles. Plus: RH's CEO sounds the alarm on tariffs
01:08:13
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Emily Henderson joins the show to talk about her new sofa collection and how she's reacting to the rise of AI.
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Foreign.
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This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Emily Henderson about her new sofa collection. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including the latest on inflation and interest rates, RH's recent earnings report, and what luxury means. Today to do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicklaus. Hi, Fred.
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C
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
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Great. Can you hear me on your end of the table? We're trying something a little bit different today. Yes.
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C
Live and in person. Live and in person here recording the Thursday show together, which we've actually never done. I don't know if listeners know this, but we're normally in our own little workholes in our own homes. But an NKBA luncheon brought us together today here at the BOH headquarters at 200 Lexington. Good to be here with you.
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B
It's great to be here in the office. I want to warn listeners it's not entirely a soundproof thing. Fully quiet room here, so you hear some occasional sirens, some car horns honking. That's nyc. Okay. That is the excitement of recording in the big Apple.
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C
Podcasting reality. And actually this building is gonna be a lot busier tomorrow because we're here talking right before what's New, what's Next. When this episode goes up, it'll be the morning of what's New, what's Next. So stop listening to this podcast, get in a cab, head up to 33rd street and come see me and Dennis. We've got a panel at 2:15. We're gonna be talking about disruption in the about several of the topics we're gonna be talking about in 15 minutes or so. But if you want more of that, if you just can't get enough of us talking, we'll be on the sixth floor at 2:15. So swing on by.
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B
We're pretty excited to see each other in person and we want you to be excited to see us in person. So come and join the festivities at what's New, what's Next. We'll be here and we hope to see a lot of you.
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C
In the meantime, let's look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with Susan Tynan of Framebridge, the rare direct to consumer company that is still operating. I mean, not really, but I do think it's impress a lot of her peer group is no longer with us.
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No, I completely agree. And as we talk about a little bit in the conversation with Susan, the venture capital industry as a whole lost interest in her category in a lot of ways. And so Susan was smart and raised an awful lot of money in the early days and built out a pretty elaborate operation with a very similar premise to so many people that we've had on the show. Well, I had this experience and it wasn't great and so I thought there was an opportunity and it turns out there is a lot of opportunity, right?
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C
Yeah, it's the classic there's got to be a better way business with and I will say custom framing can be kind of onerous. I think we've all had a similar experience as her. I'm always wondering, like, do designers care about framing? Like, who do they go to? I'm really interested to see if Susan can connect with the trade because I think there's an opportunity there. There's a little bit of a white space there. I'm interested to see if she can fill it well.
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B
And I think that is, to your point, that's going to be the big challenge. And she was very candid about that. And I think it takes a lot to win over the trade, particularly when you start off as an online brand. And now she's opening locations around the country and there's going to be a lot more on the way. But winning the trade is definitely the next big key to her success. So we'll keep an eye on that. I'd love to hear from designers about their framing needs and their thoughts about it because I do think it is something that a lot of people are entrusted with and I think the much more traditional framing brands were the ones that people just felt more comfortable with. So it'll be interesting to see if they can make the transition. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Hartman and Forbes, a founder led house nearing three decades of creating hand woven natural window coverings for the world's most discerning designers. Each bespoke shade is woven to size using carefully selected natural fibers, bringing the exquisite beauty of nature indoors. Their collection also spans textured wall coverings and heritage Belgian linens, all crafted to transform interiors into spaces of Sanctuary. Visit hartmanforbes.com to learn more and locate your nearest luxury showroom. This podcast is sponsored by Serena and Lily. Serena and Lily's trade program offers designers exclusive access to their high quality collections, including customers own material, custom size upholstery, and a dedicated support team for seamless end to end collaboration. Other trade member benefits include best pricing, fast complimentary swatches competitive lead times and extended returns throughout the year. Serena and Lily's trade members receive additional discounts and free white glove delivery offers on their Benchmade furniture and decor. Visit serenandlily.com the Thursday show to become a member today. And we're back. First up, Fred, guess what? It's not going to be tariffs, it's actually going to be interest rates.
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Not just interest rates, but inflation, too. All the exciting topics at the top of the show here. Mere minutes ago, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell announced that for the first time in nine months, the Fed would be cutting rates a quarter of a percentage point. Stocks jumped on the news briefly, but now they're sinking back. What what do people think of this? Denn?
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Well, it was a, was the least surprising interest rate cut we've had in quite a while. It's been talked about for a long time. And unfortunately there's a lot of cross currents and a lot of different reasons why this rate cut is happening now. And that may help us to understand better why the market is reacting the way that it is. You and I were talking before the show about how much more meaningful this rate cut might have been back in February. Unfortunately, the Federal Reserve sees that employment is becoming a concern and that's really the reason for the rate cut today, that unemployment numbers are rising and we had more people seeking unemployment benefits than they were anticipating.
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C
Way to spoil the party, Dennis. We're all supposed to be celebrating this rate cut. Unfortunately, it really is about people losing their jobs. I mean, it's a great point. And I think that whenever the Fed cuts rates, it's because there's a problem they're trying to fix. So it's important to acknowledge that the reason why it matters for our neck of the woods is that historically mortgage rates have been tied to the federal funds rate. And generally speaking, when the Fed cuts rates, mortgage rates go down. And if mortgage rates go down, more people buy homes and then more people decorate those homes. And that's good for everyone listening to the show. The complicated thing is that the Fed actually cut rates last September and actually mortgage rates went in the other direction. So it's very complicated. It's not a simple equation. Currently, the rate for a 30 year fixed mortgage is actually relatively low. It's around 6.4%, which is the lowest it's been in a year. And mortgage refinancing is sort of jumping up. So there's like good rumblings of news in the housing market and maybe this will unlock this very stagnant housing situation. We keep talking about, but right now it's just so murky. There's just so much going on. This rate cut has been, people have been talking about it, we've been talking about it for months. And so you're always wondering when the thing that you know is going to happen actually happens. Is that good news or bad news?
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B
Well, and as you say, the Fed only has a certain amount of control. Often the Yield on the 10 year treasury has much more to do with what ultimately happens with mortgage rates. And we'll have to see what direction that decides to go in. The Federal Reserve would ideally like to have the inflation rate at 2% or below. And it is far from that at the moment. And that's one of the big problems a lot of people are feeling why on earth are you cutting interest rates at a time when we clearly don't yet have inflation under control? That is again just one of the big tensions going on here. So inflation. A lot of people think that even though inflation has seemed remarkably low in the home related industry, it's actually been pretty strong, hasn't it, Fred?
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C
Yes, as you pointed out, inflation really has come for the furniture business. All summer we've been expecting, okay, these tariffs are making importers spend much more money. They're going to pass prices on to the consumer. And so the consumer is going to see price increases in furniture. And it really hasn't happened to a remarkable degree. Like Wayfair talks about how no one's raising prices and we're not seeing inflation. Well, guess what? In August the number came in and a lot of furniture jumped up 9.5%. Much, much higher than the 2.9 overall percent. So furniture prices are definitely coming up. It's hard to read it any other way than related to tariffs. But I don't know, am I just, am I reaching for the T word too soon? Dennis, what do you think?
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No, I think in this case I think we're going to see more of that. And that's really the problem. Listen, anyone who's been out and ordered a steak lately, anyone who's whipped up some guacamole at home, anyone who's tried to buy.
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This is a window into the Dennis Scully diet here. Steak and gu every night at the Scully house.
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B
I don't think that inflation is a surprise to anyone. We've seen it in auto insurance rates are incredibly high. We've seen it in all these places that nobody can look at you with a straight face and say we've got inflation under control. And that's really the concern that perhaps we've only seen just the beginning. We know in the furniture industry, people placed all sorts of orders at the beginning of the year because they were worried about some kind of tariff announcement. And there's only so long that that inventory will last. We'll talk about that more in a minute. Prob. But this was not an easy layup, kind of a rate cut. This was not one that everyone is celebrating. There's a lot going on. And the Federal Reserve, you mentioned that stocks are already kind of coming back a little bit from their highs because the Federal Reserve is signaling that, listen, this doesn't mean we're gonna be cutting rates 4, 5, 6 times as many people had been anticipating. It's certainly not. Happy days are here again, sadly, for the home industry or for the furniture industry specifically. But. But we'll see what happens. We're going to move on, though, and we're going to talk about Dun dun Dun. The RH earnings. The company formerly known as Restoration Hardware released its earnings report last week. And though the numbers showed some incremental progress, another subject took center stage on the call. Fred God forbid they throw another tariff on furniture. I mean, I think they got it.
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Someone has got to come talk to us.
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Talk to me. Call me. I run the biggest luxury home brand in the world. Somebody call me and ask me what I think. You lose 15% of the people that.
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Are presenting at High Point Market or Las Vegas market.
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Those markets will shut down. They'll be bankrupt.
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Call me.
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So that was the big message from the call from the CEO of rh, Gary Friedman, saying, I don't know who's making these decisions about tariffs, but they need to call me.
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They have not called Gary Friedman yet. Yeah, as always, the RH earnings call is our Super Bowl. We get it four times a year. And this one was certainly not a disappointment. I mean, just to do RH a little bit of justice, the numbers that they reported were actually, I thought, decently good. Some incremental progress. Revenues were up 8.4% to a mere $899 million, and their income increased. They're making some progress at chiseling away at the inventory they have. So this was not a bad quarter for them. Overall, relatively decent. I don't know if you had a different number. Read on numbers.
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What I thought was interesting about this call. And again, if you were tuning in for the first time and hearing this earnings release and the. And the conversation that followed, you'd really be surprised that a. What you thought was a furniture store, was talking about all the many things going on. It is clearly as much a hospitality business. It's clearly as much of a destination kind of business. But one wonders, with all of the pressures that this company has. Again, in the quarter, there was $57 million in just interest payments to cover the debt, and that's a pretty huge percentage of overall revenue. It's over 6% of their revenue went to just covered debt. So, I mean, again, it's a leveraged operation that is trying to be a hospitality brand, that's trying to be a luxury brand that has jets, yachts, and everything else that we talk about. And that is remarkable to watch and behold, but is also incredibly stressful to sort of manage in a time where, oh, my goodness, not only are there tariffs, but now there's an investigation into whether the furniture industry should receive even greater tariffs.
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What do you think? Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's a testament to RH that calling it a furniture store sounds kind of absurd. It's like, I work at this furniture store and that is what it is.
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But I mean, it's so not.
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Yeah, exactly. So, you know, kudos to them for building up the brand to that degree. Interestingly, as we talked about, tariffs were really the big subject of conversation or the most emotional subject on the call. You know, it was sort of like this. Paris was great. You should have been there. Here's our numbers. And then when you started talking about tariffs, you clearly frustrated, as you heard in this clip. And I kind of want to know why. Because to some degree, you know, tariffs have come up before. This is not a new thing. I think Gary Friedman has largely put on sort of his, like, happy warrior pose to all this. He's talking about. Yeah, well, we're the best position to deal with this. We'll figure it out. We'll move production to the US like, bring it on. And I think something changed. It was that August announcement of more furniture tariffs. And I think the reaction was almost anger. And I'll say, like privately, in conversations with other executives who don't have to do earnings calls, I hear the same. I think people are really upset about this August announcement and this was just that anger bubbling up. But what do you think, Dennis?
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Well, I completely agree and I think people feel targeted and I think they feel confused as to why all of the country specific tariffs. And again, for Gary Friedman's business, the country specific tariffs in China and Vietnam and all of the rest were already having a huge impact on his business. And he's been trying to move manufacturing and he's been doing everything he thought people wanted done. And then, as you and I have talked about, he's always making reference, as he did on this call, to lv, BMH and Bernard Arnault and trying to work his way up to being on that level. And then I think he just feels, he felt, as he said, that the administration just seems like they don't have their handle on what the impact of this furniture tariff might really mean. And as he talked about in that clip and in the conversation, he thinks it could wipe out so many of his competitors that, yes, ultimately rh, he said, is on such a big scale. They can buy so much much. They'll figure it out, they'll get through it. But what's going to be left of the landscape afterwards? And would it mean the end of High Point or the end of Vegas, as he talked about? Not sure it'll go as far as all of that, but he's clearly got a lot on his mind and this just was a trigger for him.
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Yeah. And I do think it obviously impacts RH's business in a very obvious way. Another thing he talked about a lot, which we talked about just a second ago, is inflation. I mean, I think there was a question, are you going to take price? Are you going to raise prices? And he just reacted to the analyst. Of course everybody's going to be raising prices. And he sort of called out other executives and said, people are kind of dancing around the tariff issue. You are going to see furniture inflation. As we talked about a second ago, you Already saw this 9.5 jump in August. I think that's just a sign of things to come. I think every designer listening to this should expect that furniture, whether it's from RH or anyone, is going to go up in price in the months ahead. Even if you're a domestic producer, you're relying on components or you're trying to keep up with the Joneses. I think he was talking about seeing real furniture inflation. He's right. Yeah. I mean, moving on to Paris, as you said, this is obviously personally important to Gary Friedman and he wants to climb the luxury mountain. I think Paris is probably up there at the top of the luxury mountain, so you got to do well there. If you're going to be taken serious as a luxury brand, it's really hard to know how well it will do. It obviously looks like a very impressive RH gallery, but it's very early in terms of their European expansion. They're spending A lot of money to open up over there, and we have to see how it goes. I'm certainly very, very curious once those numbers start rolling in, to if all the views of the Eiffel Tower and the Champagne bars and et cetera end up leading to revenue, because those French are hard to please.
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Yeah, I think this guy is really just feeling a lot of pressures from a lot of different directions, and he'd love to get tariffs off his plate. Interesting. Just circling back to inflation for a second, because he was very passionate about the fact that he certainly doesn't think inflation is under control and he'd rather not see these rate cuts. He'd rather see the Federal Reserve stomping its foot and making sure that inflation is really dead. Because he remembers and he referenced, I mean, Paul Volcker, who was the last great Federal Reserve chairman who was hated widely by the average American, who had to raise rates so high to finally kill inflation back in the early 1980s. And it was so damaging to the rest of the country that had to deal with rates being so high. And no one wants that again. And so I think he feels very strongly. Listen, rather than this quarter point cut. Thanks very much. I'd rather you just kill inflation, please. And I think he knows that we are far from that. So it's interesting that he also did.
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C
It through the lens of a waterbed that he didn't even get to. Gary Friedman's waterbed that he bought in the 70s and how long it took.
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Him to pay that down.
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Exactly. Maybe they'll bring that back next year. The RH waterbed.
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Yeah, I think that'll be a big seller. Look for that. Anyway, interesting how many parallels there are with rhymes. Our interest rate and inflation conversation and then the RH conversation. Clearly, the same issues were weighing on Gary Friedman. But moving on, we're gonna talk about photo rights. Fred.
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C
Last month, BOH managing editor Haley Chouinard wrote about the designers and brands who are facing photo rights lawsuits sometimes just for posting a picture to Instagram. This week, she followed that up with the feature breaking down everything you need to know about photo usage, copyright and licensing fees. And you need to know a lot.
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B
Well, that's the thing, I think, like, we've been talking about this a lot, and I'm glad that we're writing this, and I'm glad that Haley wrote this piece to try and further explain all of the issues around this, but it is complicated. So let's get into some of what Haley wrote about.
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C
Yeah. Just to briefly rewind to Haley's article. So she was writing about the phenomenon of these lawsuits that happen when someone posts an image to social media or they post to their website. Usually it's relatively innocent. You just think you're celebrating a designer's work or somebody else's work, but you never got permission from the photographer or you never got the proper permission from the photographer. And lo and behold, a few months later, a letter from a lawyer shows up, and you end up settling for thousands of dollars over this unauthorized usage. And it's very common. And just after Haley published that story, my inbox was flooded with examples of people saying, this happened to me. That same thing happened with Haley. I'm sure you've heard with people. So this very much is a thing. There are a lot of these lawsuits happening out there, and I think it's just worth spending some time trying to understand why this is happening and what we can all do about it as an industry.
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Well, exactly. I mean, the what we can all do about it as an industry part I think is so important because I think there was a time where people didn't understand a lot of the complexities of this and a lot of the necessary permissions and the usage issues. I think a lot of photographers feel like, yeah, no, that time has passed, actually, that's over. This issue has been out there quite a bit. And you should know by now that you. Yes. That yes, you hired me for a photo shoot and, yes, you paid me for that shoot, but that these images are mine, and there are various different permissions that you can pay for. And we can talk about that, but that it isn't the free for all that. I think the feeling was, and we've talked about this in the past, Instagram just seemed like it was for a time.
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C
Exactly. And I think there was some mutual benefit in the early days where photographers got their name out there more. And that's always the promise is you get more exposure. And there is sometimes some validity to that. And it's so complicated, too, because, look, photographers don't want to be in conflict with interior designers or brands. Everybody wants to work together. I just think that as a culture, we've sort of forgotten that photographers own the copyright to the images they create. And a lot gets lost once you forget that. And then I think what's changed recently is that there's so much more technology that allows people to find these instances of use. And so photo agencies who have the money to pay lawyers are going after them more aggressively. So it's a combination of, I think Photographers feel like that time is over. And also there's technology that allows people to pursue these lawsuits more aggressively. And I think we as an industry just need to catch up to that reality. As Haley's piece points out, it's actually not that complicated. I think what happens is that people just assume too much. You hire a photographer to take some photos of a room. You assume you have the right to put it up in whatever context you want. Other people just assume because it's on social media, that it's fine for me to post it, too. And so all those assumptions just lead to a lot of misunderstandings that sometimes lead to lawsuits. And so I think if you really just sit down and think, like, well, who owns this image? Do I have direct permission from them to use it? Yes. No. That presents a pretty clear course of action. It's just that people don't go through that process right now.
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And I think, honestly, overextending yourself with regards to asking permission seemed to be a pretty good takeaway from all of this. If you were in any doubt about whether you have the right to use this image, ask the photographer or have that conversation. And a lot of times, the photographer is happy to give a special price for this usage or that usage, or say, oh, sure, go ahead. I mean, as you say, a lot of photographers recognize that some of it is great exposure for them, but they want to be able to be the ones to make the decision about whether that is beneficial to them or not.
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C
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think the problem is just that the speed of social media is so fast, and the speed of getting permission from a photographer is slow, not because it's a photographer's fault, but it's like you think about, let's say I'm a brand. I want to share a designer's work that has my product in it. Okay? I don't have permission for it specifically from the photographer. I got to find out who the photographer is. I got to reach out to them. I got to wait for them to get back to me. I got to negotiate with them. If they want some money, we have to get a document signed up by that time. It's like a week later, and you've already posted something else to Instagram. And so I think that, like, I wish there was some technological solution. I feel like I said this before, some sort of marketplace that allowed people who want to post these images to buy them quickly at a rate that works for the photographer. Because I feel like the reality is, in many, many cases, People just won't go through the steps of reaching out to the photographer. They'll just post and assume that it's going to be okay. And for some big brands, I'm sure they probably make the calculation of like, okay, if we get sued for a couple grand here and there, fine, that's worth it to go at the speed we need to go to promote our. So I think even as the cultural reality of this catches up with the industry and people know that they're not supposed to do it, I think some people still will do it. And just bank on, we're either not going to get sued or we'll settle for a relatively negligible amount of money. I don't know, am I wrong?
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B
Well, I do think people are pushing a lot more boundaries these days, Fred.
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C
Not us. We respect the boundaries.
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B
I think we do try and respect them. But I think other people are thinking, let me see if I get caught or let me see how much I have to pay afterwards. Again, it's not dissimilar to the conversation we were having last week in the context of the artificial intelligence settlements where they obviously knew that they were stealing all of this content and educating the large language models on them. And then they finally settled with various writers and other people. And I think there's that kind of mood in the air with some of this, which I don't.
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C
I'm sure that's what all the high point brands are thinking is we're just like OpenAI.
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B
No, my point in that was that I think often some people feel it's worth just taking the chance and seeing if they get caught and they can apologize and make some settlement later. Sure.
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C
But I also think that the problem with that is that it just so rewards the big people who have money to burn. You know what I mean? It's like, think about, you're like a small time blogger who posts an interview with a designer, you put up some images you think are okay. A letter shows up in the mail asking for 10 grand, that's huge. Whereas a large brand, I'm sure we know some of them who may or may not have been sued. It's not a big deal for them to pay out a few grant to deal with this. So as always, it's sort of unfortunate that the system ends up rewarding people who have the money to burn. But I don't know, I'm hopeful that the culture will change and I'm hopeful that someone will come up with a technological solution that allows a brand, okay, you want to Pay a couple hundred bucks to license a photo or whatever it costs. You just click a few buttons as opposed to having to go through the administrative steps. Because I think that's in some ways the real problem here, not the money, but we'll see.
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B
No, I agree. And I think it's great that Haley wrote about it, and I think it's great that BOH continues to write about it and we keep talking about it, because I do think. I think it's an issue that everybody wants to get resolved. So hopefully just having a better understanding of all of this will lead to that.
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C
I think we just solved it.
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B
There you go.
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C
Our conversation problem fixed.
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B
God, we are bringing people together, Fred. I feel great. Moving on. We're going to talk about luxury. Just in time for Fashion Week, the Washington Post surveyed members of the fashion industry to get their take on what luxury means to date. God, it's a burning question, isn't it, Fred? What does luxury mean?
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C
Luxury today means being able to record the podcast in person.
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B
This feels so luxurious, doesn't it?
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C
Yeah. Well, I guess I just want to start with, does that word even mean anything anymore? Is the word luxury over at this point? What do you think?
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B
Well, again, can I bring it back to RH and Carrie Friedman for a moment? Just because that's out of character for us? I know, I know. We hardly ever refer to him. It's interesting that he wants to be sure to say that he has a luxury furniture business or a luxury home business. And so I think there are some people that think luxury is a very important element in what they're doing. And I think in other cases, there's just this broad assumption that certainly if you're hiring an interior designer, if you're hiring an architect, if you're buying fabric that is hundreds of dollars a yard, that surely luxury is implied within all that and doesn't need to be stated, or that perhaps what we might perceive as luxury isn't even the end goal for so many people that want their homes to be done by a professional. Does that make sense?
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C
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think in RH's case, I think it's because Gary Friedman wants to be associated with the fashion houses that are almost in this, you know, business category of luxury. You know, like LVMH is unquestionably a luxury brand. I almost wonder just if the word luxury is kind of washed at this point. You know, I feel like there used to be so much in the industry around luxury and lifestyles, the rich and famous, and I feel Like, I, we just don't, I don't, you know, people don't pitch themselves to me saying we are a luxury brand anymore. What I really want is luxury. But I don't know, maybe I'm just talking to people in the wrong demographic. I don't know. Do. Does your cohort talk about luxury a lot? Is that word still powerful?
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B
Well, I mean, to your point, I think there never used to be a design building event that there wasn't at least some panel talking about what is luxury and what does it mean and how do you create it? And the shelter magazines would have a special luxury issue, even though all of the issues felt like they were pretty high end or luxurious, but there was always be one that would just be the luxury issue. Now it's going to be really luxurious. And again, you talk to designers. I had a conversation with Nick Olson. I mentioned we were going to be talking about this. And he said, listen, some clients are more showy than others. Some people want that throw with the H on it to be in the shot. You get it. And then others, that's not what it's about. But I so rarely talk to designers who are trying to create a feel of luxury. I think what they're trying to create is a feeling of home and warmth and security and serenity and all of those other things. And maybe to the point of this article, maybe that is what luxury means today. You know, in this piece when they talked about what these different fashion executives felt about, oh, luxury is time to myself, or luxury is when I can block my phone from bothering me. One person said, for 72 hours. Really, you can get away from your phone for 72 hours? Good for you. I want to learn how to do that. But so, I mean, I think your point that what does it mean today? I think clearly it means something very different.
- [29:54]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, I think like maybe in the 1980s and 1990s, like, you know, the concept of luxury and you know, gold, everything and you know, the value of materials was really important and valuable. I was not covering the industry at that time, so I don't want to overgeneralize. But I do think that, you know, it had a certain draw to it, this idea of luxury and material wealth. And I think that like in general, whether it's true or not, I think there's a lot of lip service paid to the idea that what clients and people want from their homes these days is more about authenticity and, you know, the storytelling of it all and comfort. And I think that, you know, to some degree, that might be the same thing by another name. And maybe this is all about marketing as opposed to anything else. But I do think it's really telling that, you know, when you ask people their definition of luxury, largely the answer is freedom and time. And so I think that's just so I feel like designers, and this is a classic thing I talk about all the time is like, what designers sell their services with is like a beautiful image of a beautiful room. That's the first step for most people who are hiring a designer. But the real luxurious value may be simply that you're, like, giving your client the freedom not to think about it. You know, they don't have to sit there on first dibs waiting for the right piece to come up. They don't have to coordinate an installation. And that is really the luxury that people seem to value these days. So is there a way for interior designers to say, yes, my service is luxury, not because I can give you the blanket with the H on it, but because I can give you hours away from your phone or hours away from having to deal with this problem? And so, yeah, I feel like if there's a way to market your services in a way that conveys like, hey, I will not only give you a beautiful home, I will give you your time back. I think that's impactful.
- [31:30]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think that what's clear is that luxury means so many different things to different people. And so I sort of love the fact that for many people, luxury is just the simplicity of time or more time with family or just getting away from all the stress and tension of.
- [31:51]
C
If you're getting away on a private jet, though, there's nothing.
- [31:53]
B
Well, I mean, I know. I feel like if you're getting that.
- [31:57]
C
Time away from stress on a blanket with an H on it, you're doing well.
- [32:02]
B
Well. And if you're on the RH yacht, I'm betting that you are feeling pretty luxurious and so more power to them. But I think it's obviously a word that has a lot of different meanings. And. And I hope that we'll get to hear from designers who listen to this segment and can tell us what it means to them and to their clients, because that's what I'm really interested in. Does it resonate with clients in the same way that it used to? All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including October's Can't Miss Design Events and the best Debuts from Paris Design Week. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break at Serena and Lily. Their frames your fabric. Members of Serena and Lily's trade program enjoy bespoke sizing and service perfectly tailored to any project. Use any one of their 17 design shops as an extension of your workspace or collaborate remotely with their dedicated support team for high touch service and endless inspiration. Join Serena and Lily's trade program for exclusive products pricing, complimentary swatches, competitive lead times and extended returns@serenaandlily.com the thursdayshow Hartman and Forbes takes a boutique approach to crafting hand woven natural window coverings offering a level of customization and artistry rarely found in today's market. From adjusting color and thread composition to widening a warp edge or matching a room detail, detail weave design can be tailored to your vision. The result is a one of a kind hand woven creation supported by exceptional personalized service. Discover what's possible and register for your trade account@hartmanforbes.com and we're back. I'm joined now by designer Emily Henderson. Emily, welcome back.
- [34:07]
A
Thank you, Deniz. When was I here? Two, three years ago?
- [34:10]
B
Exactly. It's been far too long. Thrilled that you're back. We have so much to catch up on. Rumor has it you've got, you got yourself a little furniture collection. So I'm eager to talk about that.
- [34:25]
A
This is my first podcast where we've talked about it, by the way. So you're probably gonna get some exclusive information.
- [34:30]
B
Dennis Well, I mean then let's jump right into it. And if that's the case, if exclusive information is waiting, let's, let's get to it. So let's, let's explain room service.
- [34:43]
A
Okay. Okay. So here's how it went down when Sean and Clay approached me, Sean from the Bachelor and I, I'm a fan of his, he's very funny and you know, and I was like, oh, this will be a interesting conversation if nothing else. And it went really well. And essentially what they proposed was that they, with their experience in the furniture industry like that they would essentially do all the operations. They're like, all you have to do is use your creativity to design some pieces of furniture. And that sounded pretty good to me. And they were not going to like, there was no stepping on toes. There was no, like, we're not co designing. We have very different aesthetics. And so it was really just a lot of creative freedom within the scope of the budget that we wanted think to stick to for the consumer. And I have to say like, there's a lot of awesome furniture out there, to be honest. Like, and it's. A lot of it is affordable and good. So that's when we had to go back and talk and be like, what. What feels like it's missing. What's the hole in the market that we could possibly fill for consumers and for our readers and for people like me that can't seem to find a really great statement sofa that's also kid and family and pet friendly. So that's the angle that I took to it. And. And it's been really fun. So it took about a year and a half of conversations, probably a year of. From design till it actually came out. And there were some bumps along the way with the tariff situation as. As you probably are very well aware of.
- [36:18]
B
Too aware. Yeah.
- [36:19]
A
Yep. It came out in late August, and it's been. It's been really fun. It's been really wild.
- [36:25]
B
Well, that's great. And I. I feel like we. We sped through that, and I. I don't know that everybody caught Sean Lowe, who reached out to you from the Bachelor, and he tells the story of reaching out, and I think he probably thought you weren't sure whether he was really serious or what this was about.
- [36:47]
A
I didn't realize that he and Catherine had a furniture company. I didn't know that. So when he approached, I definitely. Yeah, I was curious, for sure.
- [36:58]
B
I was like, where is this conversation going here? Exactly.
- [37:01]
A
Yeah, exactly. And he's really great. He has a great business mind. So does Clay. Like, they've definitely. They have a very clear role, and they've done it really well. And they have. I haven't had to, like, step in and try and troubleshoot or figure out anything. They just have done a really good job of taking care of the business and the operations end of it. So I can focus on the design and the marketing. Like, we did all the photos in house. We did all the videos and social and everything in house up here, which was very fun and what we wanted to do. But so there was definitely a lot of independence and. And creative freedom.
- [37:37]
B
And in your mind, how does all of that fit in with where your. Your business is these days? What was the appeal of, hey, sure. Furniture collection. Let's. Let's do it.
- [37:50]
A
Timing wise, it just felt like, let's give this a go. See if we like doing it, see if it's successful, see if it's fun, see if it's all the things that. See if it's lucrative. And it's like, you know, that has to be obviously good for the business. And so that it was just a different new muscle to flex. And I'm a little nervous about flexing new muscles, to be honest, Dennis. Like, I. Every time a really new opportunity comes, sometimes my reaction is like, oh, I don't know. I just know how to do what I'm doing so well right now. Like, do I, you know, do I want to try and take a new risk? And so it. But this has been on our mind for a long time, and so it just seemed like the right time and the right opportunity to just to try to flex a new muscle.
- [38:35]
B
Well, I mean, it seemed like it was a really big deal. And then, as you say, I'm assuming some speed bumps just in figuring out, oh, wait, suddenly April comes, and there's this big tariff announcement and. And the timing of all of that. And frankly, we're. We're still not entirely sure what's happening.
- [38:53]
A
We're not. We're not. We. Yeah, we ended up moving to a factory in America, So they are American made, which is fantastic. And it also means that the lead time is much shorter that the communication, the fabric. Like, there's a lot of things that are actually easier because of it. So. But that was. That definitely delayed the launch for sure. But it was. It was a problem that, thankfully, I didn't have to try and solve. Sean and Clay were totally on it, and they did a really good job. So I. I am really pleased to say that everything is made in America.
- [39:23]
B
And that's what the administration wants, Emily. So that is. That is great that. That's what these tariffs are supposed to. Bringing that business back to America. So thanks so much for doing your part. And. And. And is it. Has it been well received? Are you feeling like.
- [39:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a big deal to buy a sofa, and these sofas are. They're not super trendy, but they're not so trendy that I think that in five years gonna be like, oh, my gosh, that's such a 20, 25 sofa.
- [39:54]
B
Well, it's interesting because we were talking about trends recently, and so were you, and I'm curious, you had a post just recently about looking back on some of the things that you had thought about, and I'm wondering how you even think about talking about trends these days, because. And again, I get it. Media needs to create lots of trend reports and color reports, and we need to introduce new colors and get people excited. But I want to wonder what. What really turns out to be meaningful when You. When you think about that, how people.
- [40:30]
A
Are living in their homes changes. Right. Based on a lot of that is, you know, we went from lockdown to where we are now. And obviously, there's a pretty big shift in how we live in our homes there. And I think a lot of the. The more macro trends that I actually care about that seem worth talking about are more about how people experience their home rather than the color palette or whatever. So, like, right now, it seems to be that people are wanting more, like, warmth, stuff, eclecticism, maximalism. I think that's all probably because they. The years of lockdown, people wanted things simpler because there was a lot of chaos in their home. And so I think that there's something to pay attention to with trends, for sure. But, yeah, like, to your point, it's pretty hard every year to be like, what. What is this year's big kitchen trend? At the same time, we really deep dive into all those things because a lot of them are very good ideas. So we call them new ideas, but we still have to use the word trend because people really respond to that word. It's really just like, what are the new ideas that are happening right now that are kind of interesting and stylish and that our editors are seeing out there as something worth talking about? I remember, like, years ago when we talked about the California casual trend for the first time, you know, and, like, that was more of a huge movement. It was. It wasn't. Like, now this color is in. It just felt like the world was shifting towards this, like, you know, very neutral, very casual, inviting, kind of warm, elevated vibe. And now that's obviously shifted again. But I don't know. Following the macro ones, I think are really interesting. The little macro ones, I. I find them fun, like a hobby.
- [42:10]
B
Yeah. It seems like we're still writing a lot about the grand millennial trend. And like, you were saying stuff and the maximalism, and even I feel like part of that. And I was talking to a British editor the other day and saying, like, you know, how much of that is partially. We love this English country style still. That feels very layered and warm kitchens and cute little lamps in the kitchen sort of feel. Right.
- [42:43]
A
All.
- [42:44]
B
All of that. And I feel, is that some transformation that we've undergone, or has that just been always sort of underlying?
- [42:51]
A
Yeah, I don't know, Dennis. I think it's all the things. I think that it was a reversal from just where everything was, like, neutral and light and kind of wood and white and safe, and things were starting to look pretty Same, same. I mean, I think I was a part of that as well, obviously. And I think people, people just wanted, wanted more. And now, I mean, I love watching the Gen Z generation of decoration. I think it is so fun and exciting and it reminds me a lot of how I was in my 20s, which was just full of color and experimentation and just using my house as a style laboratory, doing really weird things. Some of it was cool, some of it was definitely not cool. But I, I watch it and I'm like, good for them. Like, I think that there's just a lot of, of really fun things happening that I'm really into too, you know, that aren't just, you know, for someone in their 20s, but it just, there's a freedom and there's just like a willingness to be experimental that is really fun to watch, but it's just a really fun kind of world to live in, which is one of the things I love about staying in digital media.
- [44:01]
B
Well, and so talk to me about that. I mean, because funny enough, before we came on the air we were sort of joking about you still do a blog and today, hey, we're talking about substacks or we're talking about all of this different media. I'm wondering how you, you are navigating that and, and thinking about it.
- [44:20]
A
Yeah. So we have probably maybe a year and a half ago really made the decision and we've always written like this, but about a year and a half ago we're like clearly AI is coming for us obviously. And they scraped my books. You know, they're like if you Google how to what size rug should go in your living room. The article that we used to write used to come up and now it, you know, the AI version comes up instead. So we knew that was happening and you can't stop it. So we have been shifting the content to be more personal. It's always been really personal, but even more personal and really opinion based and not AI able essentially. And so the, we might write a post in the past that was like how to hang curtains. We wouldn't write that now because it almost sounds like an AI would have written it, you know, so most of our posts just, just to have, have an opinion, have, have a real expert that's talking about it, whatever it is, and, and, or personal story. So that's, I mean, and it's generally been fine. Honestly, like I think that traffic is down a little bit from last year. I mean traffic is down from, you know, its Peak in 2021, 2020. There were high traffic years because everybody was home and everybody was working on, on their homes. So I don't think trying to reach, you know, that peak again will be that easy. But since then it's kind of maintained and we just try and mix it up, but always have it be from a person in hopes that we can remain people on the Internet. We don't know how long. We really don't. Right. So we're just. But we, we still love it. The audience is still there and until they're not, we're going to keep doing it.
- [46:03]
B
So. So redoing a staffer's apartment, for example, helps to make it personal and helps to end. Right. And there's real opinion. So here was her place and it was this empty box and we redid it. And so that's a, that's a real story and not sort of aiable in that. In that way.
- [46:19]
A
Yeah, I mean, people connect to the human being obviously, and, and same with me. I mean, people, they know me pretty well and I, you know, I've definitely pulled back the personal content probably the last five years because sometimes the vulnerability is just too stressful, honestly, like, you know, things being taken out of context or whatever. So. But I want to get back into it. I really do. And I do. I do. And there, there is probably a plan for that, but. And I'm talking about really personal stuff. Not just the, like in my house blog post, but this. The stuff about like the behind the scenes of the business, the behind the scenes of social media. There's a lot of juicy stuff there. And should I leak this? I might leak this. Well, I'll just say this. Unless this doesn't happen, there is a plan for a substack that's a very different angle from the blog.
- [47:17]
B
Okay. I wondered because I would assume that you saw a substack and you can't ignore everything. Right.
- [47:23]
A
That it's. No. And I mean, if you're thinking of writing a blog, obviously at end the this point, probably not. Is it. Just do a.
- [47:32]
B
Stop.
- [47:32]
A
Yeah, just do a substack or Instagram or TikTok, whichever platform is you're most aligned with. I still can't do TikTok. I can't. Can you.
- [47:46]
B
We were. No, well, no, I stay away from it. But I, you know, and listen, we were told it was all going away. Now it's obviously not going away. The White house has a TikTok account, so I assume it's staying. That's a pretty good signal that it's not leaving anytime soon. But I feel like it's still. I mean, huge force, obviously, but I feel like in the design world, it's still not. I don't know. Instagram still seems to be the big place where it's all going on. And Instagram and all the algorithmic changes has changed so dramatically as well. And even people with huge followings. It's so hidden or miss. Why did this resonate? Why did that not. I mean, I don't know if you've figured any of that out or stopped stressing about it altogether.
- [48:35]
A
We have figured. We figured it all out, Dennis.
- [48:39]
B
And we'll be revealing that in our new substack that's all about how we cracked the Instagram code. God, can't wait to read that.
- [48:48]
A
I am so thankful for my team because there are times when I think I'm. We've done something so good and I'm so proud of it. I'm like, this now. This is about to go viral. And I don't know, we just try different things every single day. And it is. It's a wild ride. We learn a lot. And I really, I really have to not be sensitive. Like, you really have to just have a thick skin and be like, we tried something and we put it out there. And often I don't even look at the numbers because I don't know, like, you know, we'll recap at the end of the week or at our big quarterly retreats, but, you know, sometimes it can bum you out where you're just like, should I even try anything tomorrow? But you kind of to have to. But it's also just. It's hard to stand out. Especially, like, I've been doing this for 15 years and I think that, you know, I don't do these crazy DIYs, although that. We can talk about that in a second. That we, we. We might. We do have a very old house on the property we're about to diy, But I don't. I'm not one of the content creators that does these incredible, like, transformative, Like, I don't build my own kitchen cabinets, you know, and so there's just. There's a lot out there to watch and to like and keep working, keep doing your job. For me, I'm just like, I. We do a photo shoot, multiple shoots a week. I love that part of my job so much. I love writing about the content. I love revealing these rooms. The game of social media at times can be really fun to play. Truly. Like, when I'm in a really good Place. I think I said this last time, like, it really depends on, like, where my mentality is. But when I'm in a really good place, I'm like, this is really fun. What. What a young industry I get to still be part of and, like, how fun this is. And then other times I just get frustrated and I'm just like, I don't know, should I still be here? Like, you know, and I'm like, but. But most of the time I live in the first place. Thank God.
- [50:30]
B
Well, I mean, so last time we spoke, you talked a lot about, oh, Dennis, you know, I need to step back or I need less people and I want to focus on myself and all. And I. I see you now and I'm like, really?
- [50:45]
A
I remember that.
- [50:46]
B
Really?
- [50:47]
C
Did we.
- [50:47]
B
Was that a lot of stepping back? I'm not. I'm not sure I'm seeing that.
- [50:51]
A
So that's really funny. I do remember that I was in a very weird headspace when we moved up here. We were living in.
- [50:57]
B
I'm just kidd. Scale back and really not do much. You might not even see me on social media. I'm like, really?
- [51:03]
A
I did scale back on social media. Turns out that wasn't the best thing for the brand.
- [51:08]
B
There you go. Hurt the business.
- [51:11]
A
Sure did.
- [51:12]
B
Sure did.
- [51:12]
A
It's okay. We recovered, but. But you really do have to stay on all the time in order to maintain that algorithm situation. But I am still a smaller teen than I used to be, and I really love a small team, and I still don't want to. To grow. I think I may want to grow personally a lot every day, but I don't want to. I don't want to become like a Joanna Gaines. I don't think that I would thrive in. Not that I even could, by the way. This is not me saying that I could.
- [51:42]
B
I'm just not trying.
- [51:44]
A
Exactly. No, no, no. It's more like I. When I. When I had twice as many employees, it wasn't the best for the company or for me or for the health. The business or anything. So I still do like having a very small team that can. And we hire a ton of freelancers. We still need more. More help, but it's just in a healthier way for the business.
- [52:02]
B
Yeah, healthier. I mean, and that was a big part of the conversation. I think you were feeling. I mean, again, this was a while back, but it sounded like you were feeling a little. A little unhealthy about all of it. It was all just too much and understandably. And so you did need to scale back. So what is the business today and what are you going after? What are you trying to drive? Because it's not working with clients, design clients, per se. Right. But so it's. And the business used to be all about all of these different sort of deals and people that wanted to work with you and people that wanted your help in growing their brands or helping them with. With awareness. Is that, is that still what is the business? What drives the business today?
- [52:47]
A
The last few years, in fact, probably the last 10 years, we've. We've documented these, like, larger renovations, right. And they're typically my house, so that I can really be extremely transparent about what we're doing and about, you know, the process. So the business has. Has shifted a bit to work with renovation partners that are wanting to be in houses that they know will be photographed really well. And, you know, they're going to get a lot of PR assets and deliverables out of them. So that's what we are documenting constantly and then revealing. So I have my renovation years. Those ones are a little bit harder, honestly, because they're just. They're very depleting in a lot of ways and there's tons of decisions to, to make and you're. You're doing it very publicly, so that's. Can create a decent amount of stress, you know, and. But it's, they're fun, but. And then you have to like, document every single part of it because you don't know until later what the articles you're going to write about them. Right. So you can't. You got to make sure that you're always shooting almost every day getting, getting every angle video horizontal and vertical just in case. Two years from now, we're going to want to do whatever new social media wants us, you know, to create. Some, like, reels didn't exist when we started the renovation of this house, right. So we didn't have the kind of footage that we needed to create some of these huge, more like before process, after reels. Like when we're doing a project now, we are just collecting footage for years on the project. And some of it was we put out as we're publishing it. But a lot of it, we are just keeping it on these servers for when we actually reveal so we can go back and really talk about the process once you see the after. So there's renovation years and then there's reveal years. And I love a reveal year, Dennis, because it's just the beautiful photo shoots and the styling and the decorating. And it's just a lot less stress and it's just the pretty stuff. And honestly, it's the stuff that people care about the most anyway, so then the traffic on those years is like much higher than the renovation years. So. But you have to have the renovation years too, because that's where a lot of the partners are from anyway. So it's, it's, it's such, everything is such a balance and each part of it is very enjoyable in a lot of ways. And each part of it is obviously stressful in a lot of ways. So it's a balance.
- [55:09]
B
People love to, to weigh in. And here you are working on your personal space. Right. And, and, and people have lots of, of opinions. I remember Julia Markham from Chris Love Julia saying on, on stage when I, she said, yeah, and people were all upset that we were moving. And I said, well, and they felt like they could weigh in. And she said, yeah. And we really thought like, oh, maybe we shouldn't move because the readers are all upset about it. And I thought, wow, that's a lot to have to factor in. Right. To your life. And apparently, and she talks about this very openly. People don't love the kitchen or people don't love, I don't know, like things that she's renovated. And that's got to be hard when people. Right. And as you say, social media is a lot less nice and kind than when you first came up as a blogger, right?
- [56:00]
A
Sure is. I mean, I protect myself a lot, Dennis. So my team reads the DMs that somebody from my team reads the DMs that are general, that are not, like, I don't have a personal relationship with I. They'll debrief me if there's like something that's very consistent, like a criticism that's very consistent. Consistent. But it's different than me reading the criticism in the language that the commenter is leaving it in, which is sometimes mean spirited. I can handle criticism. I mean, I've been here for 15 years. That's fine. It's the mean spiritedness that is, is harder to digest because it's almost like, wait, there's people that live out there and exist just to kind of ruin your day. That's almost more of the pain than it is like personal. It's just.
- [56:43]
B
Yeah.
- [56:43]
A
Wow. We live in a world where someone thinks that's okay to do anyway. So I really, I protect myself from the comments from the blog. We really, I mean, people are so nice there, but. And there's a few that can get through. So we have an AI comment filter now that can detect negative sentiment.
- [57:04]
B
Interesting.
- [57:05]
A
I know so. And it's. My team created this, my IT guy. Not so so that I don't have to read them, but if they're negative, then a human still has to publish them. Like, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't mean they don't get published. It means that a human being, Caitlyn on my team, she'll go through and, and then read them because sometimes they'll block somebody for using a silly curse word that. But they were actually saying something very positive. So now it. The AI detects whether or not they're negative and I can go in and comment back to people. I feel so much freedom knowing that I'm probably not going to come across something that's going to ruin my day. So we have protections in place.
- [57:45]
B
Yeah. And as you should.
- [57:47]
A
There's so many times I'm like, that is fair. That is fair. And I'm kind of nauseous because there's a lot of truth there. Right. And then that does help me grow and that does help me kind of shift some of my decision making in a way that was probably better for everybody, including myself. But it's just the way that it's written. So I think that having, having my team kind of just filter a little bit, be like, hey, your outdoor kitchen maybe wasn't very relatable. And like, yep, I get that. So we need to make sure that we are speaking to multiple audiences and not just, you know, the outdoor kitchen audience. And so there are definitely criticisms that kind of sting, but I fully, fully understand and agree with them. And we take it as feedback and change our content.
- [58:36]
B
And it's funny you mentioned about AI and I just see so much more AI video content showing up and I'm thinking, wow, this is really coming in such a huge way. And I hear some AI film is going off to a big film festival. And I just think that is out of the barn.
- [58:58]
A
I know. And I've obviously thought about how we could be using it every day. And I don't know, Dennis, I don't know, like, how it could truly make my day to day as a designer, blogger, business owner. I really don't, I don't know how it could help. I would be very interested in hiring someone that would come in and be like, okay, from based on what you're already doing, here's ways that could be more efficient or you know, design programs that could, that could help. And I know that there are some for design designers. But I just, I, I, we still haven't figured out how, how we can use it, except we've done some blog posts that have been where we take a photo and then change elements in the room with AI. But I will say it takes a very long time for them and they do it wrong. They're listening to me, of course, so they're gonna, they're gonna punish me. They're listening so many times.
- [59:51]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:52]
A
But I'm like, oh, was Photoshop better than this? Like this took. So like I'm talking hours, not like, and it's, but like every time you prompt it's like, no, sorry, not that blue. Make it look more like this blue. And then they'll do the wrong glue or they'll do a chair backwards. You're like. And every time it takes about 10 minutes for it to, to, you know, to redo it. So we haven't found it beneficial yet. I'm sure it's going to be or I'm sure I just don't know the programs that I could be using right now. But so we are really not utilizing it very much right now at all. Which I'm probably going to regret saying that. And being this way, I'm not opposed to it at all. It's just that I don't, I don't know. For designing product, we either want to hire a product designer to be kind of part of our team or we're going to have to start using these tools because none of us on my team are product designers. So the, the sofas went well with a ton of drawing, a ton of back and forth, a ton of like, oh, no, I mean literally me so sitting on sofas are at our house and being like, this is like one inch too deep, you know, like, so that's kind of how we designed all the proportions is like real life sitting on, on a piece of furniture. But I know that going forward, doing that in addition to having some AI tools or a human being tool that knows how to do product design design, like real renderings would be really helpful. I am not anti tech. I'm sure I'm intimidated by it, but I'm not anti. I'm just not quite sure you know, how to use it in the way that that would really help. Help our business.
- [61:34]
B
Yeah, no, no. Which makes sense. And, and I think, listen from a, from a furniture design perspective, definitely some tools out there that can, that can help you and, and make all of that easier. And I don't want it to, to feel as scary as it does. But.
- [61:47]
A
Yeah, but do you remember a few years ago when the home world was talking about all these. Was it virtual reality stores? Do you remember?
- [61:57]
B
Sure. And AR and VR. We thought that was going to be.
- [62:00]
A
Exactly.
- [62:00]
B
I thought that was going to be everything. Augmented reality and virtual reality, and we were all going to be living in the metaverse and.
- [62:06]
A
But I remember like home brands were like really jumping on this and announce like making big announcements. And I remember thinking like, I don't think people really want to exist in these world, in the home space. And I think that's the same with AI in your home. It's why the home, I think, is also a place where smart technology doesn't take off nearly as well as everywhere else is because people want their homes to be really unintimidating and easy to exist in. And I think even when you're consuming, when you're looking for home content, like decorating ideas. Ideas. I think I, I really hope that the home space might be one that people really want a, like a human being or like the sense that a, A family is involved. Do you know what I mean? Versus other industries, obviously. Tech, medical, bio, you know, like, there's all these industries that it makes sense for. But as far as, like, I don't know, I, I feel like people. There's a warmth with your home. There's like, it's where we live, it's where we, you know, we raise our kids. I just, I don't know, I just feel like it might be a little bit more protected or at least I'm hoping that like our blog and the way we, we create content, that it might still have an audience even in five, ten years from now when the rest of, you know, everything is just so AI. I think you're going to be able to detect when things aren't, I hope.
- [63:30]
B
In conclusion, all of this technology is great, just not the creepy part that seems to be a little scary and with an edge. And it's a little bit of an odd time that we're living in at the moment. But Emily, I'm delighted to get to check in with you and speak with you and I thank you so much for making the time, Dennis.
- [63:50]
A
Thank you. I always like talking to you and I always am nervous what I'm going to say, but here we are and it's a real conversation and it's a, it's a, It's a wild world out there. I guess it isn't that like consistently what we talk about. It's it's so fun.
- [64:11]
B
Yes.
- [64:12]
A
It's so challenging. It's so frustrating. I'm so lucky to still be here. 15 years is not nothing in digital and social media, as you know. So I'm just, I'm happy to still be here and have, have readers who are still like, really excited to come to the blog and come to our social. So. And to be talking to you. It's, it's, it's. Yeah, I'm just grateful.
- [64:36]
B
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [64:43]
C
Wayfair caught my eye this week, Dennis. A few weeks ago we talked about how a lot of Wayfair vendors were stealing images from British design brands, those dastardly Wayfair vendors. I just checked the other day and actually Wayfair has pulled almost all of the offending images that I pointed out to them. So, I mean, I'll say kudos to them for taking action on it. I mean, they did have to be bugged by a reporter about it, but they clearly have a process to pull stuff down. And I'm sure that, you know, the people over there are trying, you know, ironically enough, I did see another image that I think was stolen while I was there. So you really see how this is a, this is whack a mole. You know, you take one thing down, another thing goes up and, you know, maybe I shouldn't let Wayfair off the hook. Me need to come up with a technology solution. But they do, you know, they are at least responding to complaints about this. So, you know, good on them. The other thing is, and I feel bad even I said RH 5,000 times in this podcast. But there was a little news story with how our house, the other competing brand, had dropped a lawsuit that they put up against RH for this whole complicated story about an executive who'd gone back and forth and RH had stolen trade secrets. And I think I was very excited for the discovery phase of this lawsuit because I was hoping all these emails would come out. But our house has dropped the lawsuit. I think they very similar thing happened last year when they sued RH over this other alleged thing. So, you know, that that is no more. I don't know if you were surprised by that. I think a lot of people told me this was going nowhere, but I was holding out hope for a nice, juicy lawsuit.
- [66:07]
B
Fred wanted A lot of disclosure. He wanted a lot of documents and a lot of revelations. But I think it's, I think it's interesting that it's died down, clearly. Listen, Fred, he's much too concerned about tariffs and inflation to worry about some petty lawsuit. So we'll, we'll see what happens there. But interesting that that's all come to a, to a head.
- [66:26]
C
What caught your eye this week?
- [66:27]
B
One of the things that caught my eye was all the way from Paris, Feuille Boiserie, who has been on the show. Guillaume from Feuille Boiserie has been on the show and just opened his show in the D and D building. Right. You see that there are people opening showrooms in the D and D building.
- [66:43]
C
There are, there are.
- [66:43]
B
And they're excited about them and, and it's a showstopper, no surprise. So it is definitely worth checking out. They, they pulled out a lot of stops to, to open that space, and it's one that I think a lot of people will be talking about and, and checking out. So I, I hope that they will, and I wish them great success in their new space. The other thing that I wanted to share is the fact that next week I will somehow, Fred, be recording the show with you from Atlanta, which is.
- [67:11]
C
Not coming with you this time.
- [67:13]
B
Sadly, we won't be together next week, but I'll be in Atlanta and I hope that people will come visit me because I'm going to be at Discover ADAC on Wednesday, September 24, 1pm I'm going to be giving a presentation with Bobby McAlpin and Tara Shaw, and I hope that you'll come and check that out on behalf of my friends at Century. So I'm looking forward to that and, and looking forward to spending a lot of time with the good folks in Atlanta. I don't get to spend enough time at adac, so I'm, I'm thrilled to be there and I hope to see lots of people there. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write down to us the podcast at businessofhome. Com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.