← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Highlights from Milan Design Week with Julie Lasky and Ghislaine Viñas. Plus: The latest on tariffs
01:17:37
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, journalist Julie Lasky and designer Ghislaine Viñas share their highlights from Milan Design Week.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to designer Ghislaine Vinyas and journalist Julie Lasky about Milan Design Week. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including the latest on tariffs, a check in on the state of housing, and what the White Lotus can tell us about design culture. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nick. I'm Fred.
- [00:33]
Fred Nick
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:35]
Dennis Scully
Great. How you doing?
- [00:36]
Fred Nick
I'm doing okay. I'm. I've been through three time zones over the past week. New York, Dallas, and I'm in California. I don't know what day it is.
- [00:46]
Dennis Scully
Fred is uncertain. The day, the time. We don't. We don't know.
- [00:50]
Fred Nick
I'm recording with my microphone and a Pyrex measuring cup as a mic stand. I don't know what the current tariff on China is. I'm a little bit discombobulated, but I'm hanging in there.
- [01:00]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's been tariffs, tariffs, tariffs nonstop for you, Fred. I know.
- [01:04]
Fred Nick
Let's take a quick break from that, though, and look back on Monday's episode. A conversation with Day Kornbluth, the president of West Elm. But not just that. A person with a fascinating career in the industry. Really?
- [01:15]
Dennis Scully
Indeed. And it was actually quite fun to be down in Dumbo at the West Elm headquarters for this conversation at what felt like this historic moment in time, certainly in Day's tenure there. The launch of this big collection with AD100 designers Pierce and Ward. And on the walls of the place of various offices were the catalog layouts and lots of photo shoots that had taken place around it. And you could just feel as if all eyes had been on getting everything ready to launch this great big collaboration. So it was an interesting time to be there.
- [01:58]
Fred Nick
Yeah. And the collaboration's definitely been making waves. I've heard a lot of people talking about it recently, and it's interesting. Day got there in 2023, but especially at home, it takes a long, you know, a new leader to really make a change. Like two years, really, until her first big collection, you know, that she oversaw with the brand came out. So sort of interesting to talk about that. As you said, fascinating conversation about her career. Also interesting about West Elm. West Elm's such an interesting company. I mean, it, it's a really, really big retailer. We sometimes sort of. It feels a little bit kind of like small and scrappy, but it's, it's a big part of Williams Sonoma's roster. So it's I think we should talk about it more. And this was a great, great kickoff to do that.
- [02:37]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. It's such a great point. She talked about it being this $2 billion startup, and I think it was fascinating to hear, as you say, how she has worked feverishly to get everything in place over the last few years, in part for this big collection. And then of course, obviously thinking about one day talking to me about all of this, that was probably weighing heavily on her. But it's interesting because a lot of people have already felt the changes there. So we'll see what we hear about both the response to the collection, which sounds like it's doing quite well, but also a lot of other changes that are happening at the company. So stay tuned for that. In the meantime, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Jaipur Living. Rooted in purpose and crafted with care since 1978, Jaipur Living has redefined the art of rug making, championing ethical production and environmentally conscious practices every step of the way. They believe that when individuals thrive, society as a whole is elevated. That's why they empower more than 40,000 artisans, 85% of them women, through financial consistency, skill development and education. Discover how they're ensuring they leave the world a better place@jporeliving.com sustainability. This podcast is also sponsored by Chelsea House. Chelsea House is excited to announce a major expansion to their lighting line, crafted from designer requests at Spring market. They'll add 150 new designs to their already brilliant collection of lamps, sconces, pendants and chandeliers. Each one is priced to maximize designers margins. Ships in days and all are available with no minimum purchase. Discover what's new in lighting at the Chelsea House showroom, 200 N. Hamilton St. April 24 through the 30th. And we're back. Would it be a Thursday show these days if we didn't talk about tariffs? Fred, I'm not sure.
- [04:59]
Fred Nick
The fun continues. Even though President Trump has paused many of the sweeping tariffs announced earlier this month, the design industry is still reeling from the upheaval and so apparently are consumers.
- [05:11]
Dennis Scully
Yes, sadly, consumer sentiment just scraping the lows there. I don't know. What do you make of these numbers?
- [05:21]
Fred Nick
Yeah, it was pretty jarring. Consumer sentiment apparently plunged 11% this month to a reading that the University of Michigan says is the second lowest on records going back to 1952, which is kind of a funny statistic. Certainly the Uncertainty of these tariffs has caused a lot of people, not just the design industry, not just furniture people, but everybody, to feel a little bit confused about where the economy is going. And there's been a lot of reporting about this over the past week or so. The Wall Street Journal has a great article about how even really high end home buyers are peeling back a little bit because of course, they have so much money wrapped up in the stock market. And as the stock market goes up and down and left and right, they're thinking, is this really a good time to be making a big purchase? Right. And just as important as the reportage from the Wall Street Journal is what, Dennis, you found out from your Equinox trainer, who apparently has some interesting intel to bring us.
- [06:17]
Dennis Scully
Yes, the real man on the street numbers. So, interestingly, I mean, talking about the high end home purchases. So I live in a very wealthy part of the country, Westchester county, one of the most expensive counties in America. And what, what surprised me was hearing stories of people scaling back. So talking to this trainer at Equinox, he said that multiple clients had already dialed back personal training sessions. They had been reducing their classes. Some members had canceled altogether just because of the volatility in the stock market and feeling as though they weren't as wealthy as they, as they once were. And this is a gym where Ferraris and Maseratis are parked in the parking lot. So I was pretty surprised to hear of people at that level already dialing back some pretty basic expenses and clearly not me, which makes me wonder, what am I not understanding here? I was with the trainer. What do I not get about what's happening?
- [07:17]
Fred Nick
Yes, the unintended consequence of tariffs is the fitness of America's 1%. I mean, it is a. There's the cliche about the journalist talking to the cab driver on the way home from the airport. The Equinox trainer is really the ultimate arbiter of what's going on with the 1%. But I do think, look, it's true, and I think people are very uncertain now. I don't know that this is a permanent state of affairs. I think that, you know, the policy coming out of the White House is definitely changing, you know, by the day. And it's possible that if we get some clarity and some stability, the stock market comes back up and these people go back to the realtors and say, hey, I actually do want to buy this $8 million home and I also want to hire a designer, which of course, is, you know, what we care about. So it's It's, I don't feel that this is some, you know, sign of things to come necessarily, but it shows how much it's really, it's the uncertainty that makes people really hesitant on these big purchases. And you know, while there has been this big surge of, you know, furniture, today just published a story just minutes ago about how people are purchasing a lot of furniture right now. I think it's a little bit of a pre tariff surge. People are trying to get, get the purchase in before, you know, these numbers come down. And I do think that over the next month we're going to see some dips because of all the, you know, the craziness in the markets.
- [08:26]
Dennis Scully
I agree. And I, and I think the Wall Street Journal piece especially pointed out so often when we talk to people about how the high end consumer is impacted, they say, oh, these things don't really bother my client. They have so, but they have so much money that they're, and they're following it very closely all the time, interestingly enough. So, I mean, the funny thing about the trainer at Equinox, most of his clients are financial people and so they're constantly talking to him about it. And the ones that aren't financial people are realtors, funny enough. So, I mean, he really does have his finger on the podcast. Let's get him on the podcast. Let's get a fun feeling. But I mean, but it is interesting because people do get spooked. And again, when you look at your statement and suddenly your portfolio is down 10, 15%. And listen, if you've been in some of these big tech stocks, it's down even more than that. And this is how it happens, the consumer sentiment numbers. It's hard to pin any direct correlation of what happens with consumer sentiment, but this is how it begins. People start to get nervous. They express that nervousness through both how they're feeling about the economy right now. And what's interesting about consumer sentiment numbers that we're seeing, they're predicting quite a bit of inflation in the future. So everyone who's saying, oh, this isn't really going to be inflationary, well, these numbers don't suggest that. Even the chairman of the Federal Reserve today speaking in Chicago continues to say, yes, we think this is going to be inflationary, therefore we're not cutting rates anytime soon because we have to see how this plays out. And that's the big problem. Because if the Fed's not gonna cut rates, rates don't come down. It makes people anxious even more about everything going. It's just a bad. It's a cauldron filled with confusion and negativity and it's how these things get started.
- [10:18]
Fred Nick
Yeah, I mean, the vibes are definitely off. And just to shout out a couple quick pieces we have up on businessofhome.com right now, a producer on the show, Caroline Burke, who also writes a lot for boh, wrote a great piece about how designers can protect themselves in this confusing environment. Should you change your contract, how should you talk about variations in pricing? Definitely check that one out. And also, you know, even though the global so called reciprocal tariffs went off, there's still a huge tax on China. And we have a piece from our retail columnist Warren Shulberg outlining how, like, look, even if the numbers come off on Vietnam, China is still a huge producer of a lot of stuff that we buy for our homes. So there's going to be impacts from that. So rest assured, we will not be quiet about tariffs anytime soon. Never fear that. And I also, you know, this week had a long, deep dive talking to a lot of domestic manufacturers, which is sort of interesting because of course, they're one of the supposed recipients of the good side of these tariffs. And so it was interesting to get into the weeds with them on that.
- [11:14]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, and that was such an interesting piece that you wrote and you heard quite a few different perspectives in the article. And clearly all eyes are on High Point that's coming up in just a few weeks. I mean, everyone is sort of having very different conversations leading up to market than perhaps they've ever had before. And it'll be interesting to see what happens when people show up. But, but also it was interesting to hear from various people that you spoke to about what might or might not happen for domestic manufacturers and how they're thinking about it. Tell us a little bit about what you learned.
- [11:51]
Fred Nick
Yeah, well, I mean, Dennis was just talking about was it a cauldron of uncertainty and doubt or something like that? It was very dark language. But of course, if you are a manufacturer who primarily manufactures in the US it's not necessarily a bad thing that there's tariffs on imported goods. So I went out looking for these people, trying to talk to them and understand what the world looks like through their eyes. And it's interesting, like all of them are kind of dealing with this little equation that they've got in their head. So on the one hand, they are getting a lot more phone calls than they were a few weeks ago because people are thinking, okay, in an environment where everything's more expensive to import, I better have a domestic supply chain. So there's a lot more interest in what they're offering. That's good. On the other hand, a lot of people like upholstery manufacturers here in the US buy fabric from China and when that gets more expensive, their own so called input costs go up. So they have pricing pressure. And then the third thing that they're thinking about is, is all this uncertainty. Is Dennis, his trainer, going to kick off an economic recession? And do I have to worry about the overall market being down? So they're kind of balancing. More people are paying attention to me, my input costs are going up and I'm worried about a recession and trying to figure out where does that all come out in the wash. Is this going to be good for me or bad for me? And it was just fascinating because everybody in the domestic manufacturing world has a slightly different take on what the output number of that equation is.
- [13:09]
Dennis Scully
Well, my question in all of that, and it's so interesting that they all had slightly different takes about it. Did anybody outright say to you, yep, I'm already hard at work building a new factory?
- [13:20]
Fred Nick
Well, I mean, that's the interesting thing, right? Like, I think the uncertainty is really the main driver of people's behavior right now. Because, you know, right now we have 145% on China, a number that is very meaningful if it sticks. So I talked to this guy named Anderson Gibbons who operates out of North Carolina, this company called sti, which is a big domestic mill, produces a lot of performance fabrics, all kinds of things. And he, of all the people I spoke to, was saying that, look, I'm normally competing with Chinese textile mills where I'm like $1.50 more than what they normally are putting out. That's a huge source of competition for me. If 145% stays on, I'm 50 cents cheaper. Suddenly I'm the affordable option. That really is hugely impactful for a company like a textile mill, where they're competing on this sort of like low dollar value yardages. And if those numbers stay on, Anderson was saying he's going to add another shift at the mill, which will create a lot more jobs. The company could invest in a new factory. It's just that they need to know, is this big tariff on China going to stick when I show up at High Point next week, Are all of my clients going to get more domestic business? Is there going to be really sustained demand for what I do? And it was interesting because he was sincerely optimistic this could really transform my company for the but he was also apprehensive because if these numbers stay on for like three months and then come off, you put down 5 million to build a new facility. Suddenly that looks like a foolish investment. So it's a very dramatic moment for people in his line of work.
- [14:47]
Dennis Scully
So again, all eyes on High Point is the big takeaway here. And I look forward to that High Point recap show because I think we're going to have a lot to three parter.
- [14:56]
Ghislaine Vignas
Right?
- [14:56]
Dennis Scully
We're going to have a lot to talk about. Then moving on, let's do a housing check in. So homeowners are facing their own set of challenges. Despite amassing $35 trillion in housing wealth, many property owners are feeling financial pressure. And this is another sort of poignant aspect of all of this. With rates being where they are, it's not so easy to get their hands on that $35 trillion as it turns out.
- [15:21]
Fred Nick
Fred yeah, this is kind of an interesting story, another one from the Wall Street Journal. So home equity has climbed an astonishing amount since 2020, 80% up from 19.5 trillion to 35 trillion. Big numbers tossing around here. So people have a lot more money locked up in their homes because of course home prices have gone up so much. And we've actually talked about this a lot on the show over the past couple years because that is one part of the economy that if you own a home, it's worth a lot more. Why don't you take out another mortgage or refinance your existing mortgage and use it to make your house a little bit nicer, do a renovation project and hopefully hire a designer and buy some furniture. What's interesting is that that hasn't really happened because it's become so much more difficult to unlock that value in a variety of ways. And it gets a little bit complicated, a little bit into the weeds of the finances of it all. But the article really pointed out that because interest rates have gone up so much, it's not as simple to take out a new home loan or to refinance your existing mortgage. And also great, I've got my home that's worth twice as much as it was in 2019. That means I'm also paying twice the amount of taxes. So you don't feel quite as wealthy as you would just because you have this big number sitting on your balance sheet in so called paper value. What'd you make of all these numbers, Dennis?
- [16:35]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. And this is again another reminder of what an illiquid asset a home can often be. And we talk so often about, for most Americans, their home is their biggest asset. But it is not easy to often unlock that value in the same way that you could with an equity portfolio, for example. So in this country today, you can press a few buttons and borrow against your stocks pretty easily at a relatively low interest rate. And in a way, thank goodness you can't do that with your home, because I fear what people would do if they had that ability. But it is significant that it is much harder. And so that $35 trillion number that we talked about, it was striking to see last year that only $78 billion out in home equity, down from 258 billion back in 2021. So, I mean, again, a pittance compared to what is locked up there. And it speaks to, again, how frozen so many of these people are. And if you have stocks, they're going down pretty hard right now, too. So the consumer is left feeling less than confident. As we talked about earlier, looking for.
- [17:58]
Fred Nick
A potential silver lining here, what unlocks some of that money and lets spend it on a home renovation project, lets them hire a designer, lets them buy some fabric and some furniture. How do we, how do we get some of that money out of the house and into the hands of our listeners, I guess, is what I'm asking.
- [18:12]
Dennis Scully
Well, you know, you know what I couldn't help but think about, it's a couple of things. One, we talked several shows about about Rocket Mortgage making all of these acquisitions, right? So Rocket Mortgage bought Redfin and rocket Mortgage bought Mr. Cooper. And part of what they're hoping to do is to make a lot of the process around home easier. And they are working hard, I think, to make it a lot easier for you to borrow against your home. And so I think we might see some new initiatives there as it becomes clear to everyone that there's a bottleneck happening in the home market. So I think we can look for that. Unfortunately, the other thing that is going to bring interest rates down is a slowdown. The Federal Reserve has expressed their hesitancy at the moment to lower rates because they're not sure about how inflationary these tariffs are going to be. But if you start to see the unemployment rate creep up, that's when the Federal Reserve is likely to move, because I think they're going to prioritize rising unemployment over their concerns about inflation. So unfortunately, tiptoeing towards a recession is what's going to turn some of these numbers around.
- [19:32]
Fred Nick
And there's your cauldron again, Dennis, that.
- [19:34]
Dennis Scully
Is not the outcome that we want here. So, I mean, it's a tough one. Did we come up with what, what for 26 we were going to thrive in 25? I don't know what we came up for.
- [19:44]
Fred Nick
I think it's, I think it's get a fix in 26.
- [19:46]
Dennis Scully
Is that something like that? Hopefully, hopefully it gets fixed in 26. That's what we're, that's what we're going for. Moving on, we're going to talk about DIY influencers. Fred. And this actually relates a little bit to the conversation we've just been having.
- [19:59]
Fred Nick
Yeah, a great article this week in the New York Times Magazine by Amy X. Wang exploring how an explosion of home renovation content creators has helped transform design media. For the better or for the worse is the question. Dennis, what do you think?
- [20:12]
Dennis Scully
Well, well, exactly. It depends on your perspective, I guess. But, but, but interesting to, interesting to see that many Americans and again, the, the bringing it back to the conversation we were just having. Many Americans, it seems, feel like, okay, I can never myself. So I'm going to tune in and watch these people renovate their 24 foot ceilinged home in New Jersey for a while. Do you think that's part of it?
- [20:41]
Fred Nick
Yeah, renovation voyeurism. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, like there has been this explosion of, you know, home so called content creators. Some people call them influencers. Whatever your preferred term of art is, there are a lot more of these than there used to be. You know, they interviewed a former podcast guest, Orlando Soria, about it and he was talking about when he first got started, it was like there were like 50 people maybe doing, you know, DIY content creation. And now there's thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people doing this. And it has been a huge growth area. You know, the article didn't really exactly answer the question as to why. I mean, I do think it's a Covid thing. Everyone was locked up. Probably that's a big reason. But you know, for sure this has happened. You know, these, these are incredibly popular, you know, content creators and you know, they make a lot of money. One of the interesting things about this article is about how this has really transformed the design media landscape. You know, I think it used to be that HGTV was sort of the place you went if you wanted to create content around your home. And that was where you would get these stars. And now it's really TikTok and Instagram where the stars are minted and HGTV is coming to those people saying, hey, do you want to do a TV show on the side, maybe. I don't know. It's a little bit. It's interesting how much this has changed the media landscape.
- [21:51]
Dennis Scully
There seems so many other ways to break into this today. And you mentioned poor Orlando Soria, who had been on our show, talking about how challenging it was and often how little money you end up making in some of this. When he talked about the various licensing deals that he would do with people or affiliate arrangements that he would have with companies, he talked about how hard it is. Some of these people, it seems like it's their second or third job and they're making quite a bit of money. So it does seem like the opportunity is there.
- [22:23]
Fred Nick
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, this is kind of the story of all media in general. It's like everybody can become a content creator and get really big outside of the auspices of a network or outside the auspices of a, you know, a big design magazine. And, you know, there's kind of winners and losers. Like, it does open it up a little bit more so you can have your own platform and generate a lot of money. Some people make, you know, $10,000 for a single 20 second video, which is, you know, not a bad way to make money. But I think the problem is it's very unstable because, you know, the algorithm changes and suddenly you're not as popular as you used to be. It's also like you don't, you know, you're not part of a big corporation. So if you want to take a sick day and you don't want to make that video, you know, that's just money you simply do not make. And there's also a lot more competition. If everybody can do it, everybody does do it. And so it's a lot more cutthroat and you get pushed this way and that by algorithms and competition and it's a little bit of a. It's a difficult way to make a living, I think. But for the people who can rise to the top, it's kind of cool just to see people who make it outside of the normal ladder system of traditional media. As someone who's in traditional media, I guess it's a little bit of a bummer for us. I don't know if there's a great design, business journalist, content creator out there, but I'm sure there's someone coming for our job. Zenith. Don't worry, they'll be here soon.
- [23:40]
Dennis Scully
Well, if AI doesn't get us right, one of these upstarts on TikTok will take our place. It's interesting because so often when we have these DIY conversations or HGTV comes up in the conversation, you can almost feel the resentment coming from designers right away. But I mean, I mean, in going through this article, I thought that really, designers don't have anything to worry about. I mean, when you talk to designers about how many of their customers are really going to start doing it themselves and all that's involved and going down to Home Depot and getting that saw and all of that. Right?
- [24:19]
Fred Nick
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's interesting because, like, the designer complaint, which is very accurate, is that HGTV convinces people that you can renovate your home in three days for $3,000, which is, of course, really impacts the way that they approach a conversation with an interior designer. That's a fair complaint. I think the TikTok phenomenon is you can snap your fingers and your home suddenly transforms itself. In some ways that's worse, but I think, in some ways, I think it makes it all the more clear that to get this result takes time and involves a lot of elbow grease. I think a lot of people who get into trying to do the same DIY renovations that TikTok people do are going to realize how difficult it is, how much of a headache it is. I do think it's just a different demograph than the person who's hiring an interior designer. I think it's just a very different kind of audience or a different kind of mentality. I think you can be obsessed with these videos and hire an interior designer. I don't think there's anything exclusionary about that. I also think that just like, look, even though these renovations are a little silly sometimes or they're a little gimmicky, they get people interested in their homes. They get people thinking about their homes as a venue for self expression. So I think this explosion of content creators does create upside for interior designers down the line in one shape or form.
- [25:33]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I think it speaks to the opportunity, I think is the expertise. And I think that all of the popularity around so many of these videos and all of this content speaks to, I think, in part, how eager people are to learn and to understand. And I think that that's part of the value of what designers can bring. And some of these renovations that you see on some of these channels, ooh, wow. Would not want that renovation. And in some of the ways that we sort of joke about the McMansions and part of what is often humorous about the McMansion phenomenon is that it's not additions to your house that you would actually want to make. And often they're not very well done and the quality and the construction, all of that. So I mean, again, sometimes I look at this and think, ooh, designers can take comfort in some of.
- [26:28]
Fred Nick
Yeah, I agree. And I also think that like, we've talked about this before, but I've seen so many more designers in my Instagram feed doing, you know, vertical video, sharing their expertise in a real way. So I think, you know, there's, there's plenty of upside for everybody in this one way or the other.
- [26:41]
Dennis Scully
Moving on, Fred. If you thought that Fred couldn't write 6,000 words about a couple of TV shows, you were wrong. Because last week Fred wrote about the White Lotus and Severance, which have kicked kicked off major conversations in the design press in very different ways. And now we're going to get to find out what led Fred to write this article and what he's learned. So tell us, Fred.
- [27:04]
Fred Nick
I mean, I think mainly if you can make watching TV part of your job, you should do that. I think that's kind of the well done, you, the unspoken motive here. But yeah, I mean, like, so, you know, there are two shows I think that are very much at the forefront of this sort of prestige TV conversation. One of them is Severance from Apple TV and the other one is the White Lotus from hbo. And, and I just noticed how both of these shows were really talked about in design media. People who are interested in design would talk about both of these shows, but just in wildly different ways. I thought it'd be funny to sort of look at, you know, well, who are the Severance people and how are they talking about design? Who are the White Lotus people? How are they talking about design? And do a little compare contrast just to break it down a little bit. So Severance, you know, I'm not going to do spoilers here. Don't skip ahead. Severance here is this kind of interesting sci fi show set in this sort of alternative alternate world. I won't explain, it's a very complicated premise. But a lot of the show happens in the offices of this company called Lumen Industries. And it's very kind of like minimalist and broken down, kind of a surreal company. And it's absolutely filled with like mid century classic furniture. Like the guys from Rarefy who I think we've talked about a little bit, you know, supplied a lot of their furniture for it. So you have all these like pieces by Saarinen and Dieter Rams and it's Just this, like, became this obsession for people who are really interested in that kind of that side of the design industry to point out, oh, that's that Italian piece. Oh, that's that Danish piece from 1932. And, you know, meanwhile, the White Lotus, which takes place is filmed at real Four Seasons locations, is this sort of opulence, you know, wonderful hotels. And people get obsessed with, oh, look at that lampshade, and look at that piece. And it became, you know, the conversation is like, get the look for less. And there's a lot of Jim Thompson fabric in the most recent season of the White Lotus. So you just had these two very different kind of conversations. One of them, which is obsessed with the history of design and these European designers and everything they did, and the other side was a little bit more about luxury and opulence and the way people live. And so it was just interesting to sort of look at those two separate modes of thought about design on tv.
- [29:05]
Dennis Scully
Well, and interesting to your point about the impact of the design and the sets and interesting to see collaborations coming out with. With CB2 for the white Lotus and. And other capsule collections with various brands and. And I don't know what. What severance has on the. On the way.
- [29:27]
Fred Nick
Yeah, well, I mean, like, White Lotus is funny because this season there was a mill. It was. There's, like, White Lotus Coffee Creamer, which is. That was kind of insane. But, yeah, there was a collection with CB2. And it's interesting because the White Lotus, I mean, the show is all about sort of satirizing, you know, affluent people and talking about how even all their money and their material wealth doesn't buy them happiness. And it's like, oh, but here's a collection of furniture for that. Something kind of ironic about that. But. Yeah, I mean, really what I was trying to get at with the piece is that there are these two wildly different sort of parts of the design industry. I don't know if you've ever. I feel like you and I have talked about this sort of split kind of, you know, here and there, maybe not on the podcast, but just in general about how there are these people who are, you know, they're obsessed. They go to Salone every year and they're obsessed with, you know, industrial design, but they kind of don't think too much about interior design as much much. And then you have the people who, you know, maybe, you know, have never been to Salone and are just thinking about, well, here's how the room comes together. But they're not as obsessed with, you know, finding out which, you know, German with interesting glasses designed this, you know, this sofa. And it's just sort of an interesting split in the industry that has always sort of intrigued me and I've always wanted to, you know, see those two sides of the fence play together a little bit more.
- [30:34]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's funny because, and you and I have talked about that and so, so often I feel as if we're covering such a different side of the design world than Interior design magazine and other publications like that are covering. Right.
- [30:50]
Fred Nick
It is interesting how they're these two halves of the world, as you said, interior design magazine. You open it up and it's very different names than might be showing at Kips Bay, for example, even though everybody's kind of in the same sandbox really. So I don't know, I'm just all for sort of breaking down that barrier. I think obscure Italian designers are interesting to learn about and understand. I think, think like pulling it all together into a beautiful room is really important and, you know, some people overlook the importance of that. So I, I just think people should be watching both of these shows and, you know, that's my takeaway. Watch more tv.
- [31:21]
Dennis Scully
Well, there you go. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including advice from Gail Dobie on succession planning and a new initiative from Chicago design firm park and Oak. We'll be back in a minute. Before first, a quick break. Jaipur Living's award winning art and sustainability initiative Manchaha empowers rural Indian artisans to craft one of a kind rugs from leftover yarn, reducing waste and celebrating true artisanary. Each vibrant rug tells a story inspired by history, culture and environment, embodying creativity. Learn more about this collection and shop the one of a kind pieces@jaiporliving.com for the newly expanded Chelsea House lighting line, designer Jamie Merida drew on decades of experience as a successful retailer and interior Designer to create 80 new products that strike a perfect balance of elegance and functionality. See Jamie's brightest new ideas in the Chelsea house showroom at 200 N. Hamilton St. April 24 through the 30th. All available at designer friendly prices with no minimums required. And we're back. I'm joined now by design journalist Julie Lasky, who is just back from Milan. Julie, thank you so much for joining me.
- [32:52]
Julie Lasky
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Dennis.
- [32:55]
Dennis Scully
Well, I feel like you set the tone right before you left with your piece that you wrote for the New York Times in Milan, a celebration of design in uncertain times. Did they. Did the times feel uncertain while you were there? Were people a little bit on edge?
- [33:13]
Julie Lasky
Yes and no. It was really interesting. I mean, everybody wanted to talk about the tariffs, and everybody wanted to deny they were American, if in fact they were American.
- [33:25]
Dennis Scully
Is that right?
- [33:27]
Julie Lasky
Absolutely. On the other hand, there was something unworldly about this experience because everything that we could see in Milan has been in the pipeline for a year now, at least. So there was quite a robust design scene with tons of people and beautiful weather and all the trappings of what looked like a very healthy. A very healthy design scene. And yet there was this sort of Damocles hanging over everybody's head about what was going to be happening in the future.
- [33:59]
Dennis Scully
Well, and it seemed as if separate. And apart from the tariffs, there was the feeling that China's economy hasn't really come back. Right. And they've often been an important player in all of this. And some of the other European partners haven't been in the best shape either.
- [34:16]
Julie Lasky
Yes, very true. Germany, France have been, up until very recently, the biggest consumers of Italian furniture, and they have been falling, falling off even before all of this political craziness. So there was definitely, at least in the numbers, that truth. But there are the numbers, and then there's the experience of Milan Design Week and of Salone, which is one of bubbling exuberance. And there is just no arguing with the feeling that comes from having crowds milling around you. And it was just a feeling of business as usual. But I do think that there were plenty of signs that suggested that maybe things were a little bit more dire than they appeared.
- [35:00]
Dennis Scully
Well, in conversations that you had with people about tariffs, and I don't know if you admitted you were an American or not. Julie, you can tell me. But did people theorize about what they thought was going to come as a result of all of this? Were they making moves in anticipation? I mean, what was your.
- [35:20]
Julie Lasky
Well, first of all, there was no denying I was an American because I have. I'm just really bad with accents. I was tempted, as usual, to pretend I was Canadian, but even then I wasn't sure.
- [35:30]
Dennis Scully
Let me hear. Let me hear your Canadian accent.
- [35:32]
Julie Lasky
I'm not doing that. I know better than to do that.
- [35:38]
Dennis Scully
Okay, but sometimes you might pretend, but this time you didn't.
- [35:42]
Julie Lasky
No.
- [35:42]
Dennis Scully
And so. All right.
- [35:43]
Julie Lasky
And as to the second part of your question, in terms of what people said they were going to do, how they were going to behave or react, everybody's just an awareness, wait and see game. So industries like, say, the aluminum and steel industry that have had tariffs imposed on them and have the potential of having major consequences in the design world weren't specifically mentioned, but there was, I think, maybe floating around the question of is this really going to stick? If Trump is going to back off on iPhones, is he possibly going to extend that to other industries? Is.
- [36:19]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no. It's very hard for anyone to really know where this all falls out. But you mentioned earlier that regardless of all the tariff conversation, there were these huge crowds. And additionally, it was. Spring was in full bloom. It sounds like.
- [36:36]
Julie Lasky
Very true. I mean, I've been going to the Milan Design Week for now more than 20 years, and I can tell you that a lot of one's impressions rise and fall on the weather. And nobody admits it, but, you know, you've noticed that it's radiant. Milan people come back and go, it's kind of a drag. This year. Stuff wasn't so creative, not so innovative. No, it was just that the skies were gray. And other years, I think there's just this boost that comes from that particularly gorgeous Milanese spring. The sunshine, the wisteria, the prosecco. So I think that it does lend itself to something that's festive.
- [37:12]
Dennis Scully
Were there some things that you felt really, really, really stood out this year?
- [37:16]
Julie Lasky
Oh, for sure. No, for sure. And as often is the case with Disney Week, when you're surprised, things stand up so much more. And I know that sounds so dumb and obvious, right? But I mean, when you stumble on stuff, it may not be quite as good as the stuff you know is going to be really excellent. Cause you've seen pictures before you got there, but it comes with a certain sense of pizzazz. One of those examples of stumbling opportunities was an exhibition of Polish design called Romantic Br. It was a look back to the Art Deco exhibition in Paris in 1925 and how it affected Polish design. But it showed both vintage design and contemporary, and it mixed it all together. The really talented Federico Sala was the curator of that show, but she used some really interesting young talents. I mean, I was speaking to the person who designed the show and I was so impressed with the way not only the objects that were shown there, but the way it was exhibited, exhibited.
- [38:17]
Dennis Scully
And yet it all. So it wasn't something that you had seen images of before. So it was a surprise to you?
- [38:23]
Julie Lasky
Completely a surprise. For instance, there were these beautiful kilims that were currently being produced in Ukraine near the Polish border, with patterns that look like A kind of deconstructed peacock feathers with allusions back to art Nouveau design and the color palette that you would see back in the 20s and that turn from art nouveau to art decades. So beautiful. Really beautiful and quite a revelation.
- [38:48]
Dennis Scully
Well, so were there other things like that that were a surprise to you and you were delighted?
- [38:54]
Julie Lasky
Absolutely. I mean, this is really terrible of me. There was an exhibition, and I cannot remember the name of it. I did not. It's the first time, I think, in my life that I saw something that really impressed me. And I cannot tell you who did it, but it was an exhibition of hardware that was presented like jewelry. Now, we all talk about hardware on furniture and say, oh, it's very jewel like, or you can do things to make it like the jewelry of your home. No, this was literally presented like jewelry. You open drawers and there were nails pouring out and handles and brass handles, and there were vitrines and precious little knobs that were displayed in vitrines. So I love that presentation and I'm super sorry I don't remember who did it. And if anybody out there does, just contact me and let me know.
- [39:39]
Dennis Scully
People are going to write in after they hear this.
- [39:42]
Julie Lasky
Please do.
- [39:42]
Dennis Scully
Well, so the percent of what you see in Milan during this incredible week that actually makes it to market, that actually comes over in some meaningful way for consumption here in the States or elsewhere, versus things that are just being shown to you in a way to just create inspiration or marvel. What's your sense of that?
- [40:08]
Julie Lasky
Well, there used to be a kind of old sauce statement that when you went to Cologne in January, that's where the orders were written. But she went to Salone in Milan in order to see the new ideas. And if things didn't make it past the prototype stage, it didn't really matter. You were there more or less for the inspiration. And it's the equivalent of going to a concept car show. You hope that lots of what you see is going to be translated and in fact, quite a bit of it is. And I'm sure many, many orders are made in Milan as well. But I think that notion that this is a canvas of just unbridled imagination is something that has made that fair, really special.
- [40:49]
Dennis Scully
And the images that you saw beforehand, the things you knew were going to be there, did they live up to your expectations? Were you surprised or delighted by the level of execution with any of them?
- [41:04]
Julie Lasky
Absolutely. And I hadn't planned to do this. I thought, oh, you know, I've covered these with writers assigned stories about all sorts of different presentations. So I'm not going to bother even going and visiting them. I'm just going to go see things I haven't seen. But then I found myself, you know, say, being at Alcova and running into, you know, some of these objects that we had written about, like these beautiful glass vases that were done by Kiki Goti and were displayed in one of the buildings at El Khalifa. And these were glass vessels, hand blown in Murano that were. There were three of them and they were based on the designer's family members, her mother, her aunt and her grandmother. And in a very abstract kind of way. And they were really big. I'm like, oh, wow.
- [41:49]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm looking at an image of them now and I'm wondering really now which one is which.
- [41:54]
Julie Lasky
Oh, you know, we actually there's a story inside there, Dennis, where you can. Where it's. I think the rotund one is her grandmother, when all the way on the right is her mother. The aunt is a really skinny one who I think was very kind of body conscious. But yeah, I think that just. Or seeing them just the way they're represented in a very different way was startling. That happened to quite a lot of things that I kept seeing and saying it looks better in person than in pictures.
- [42:24]
Dennis Scully
Well, I also feel as though often we're being sent some kind of messaging from Milan. Did you get a sense of something that was coming out as a message or a direction for us to be thinking about?
- [42:39]
Julie Lasky
I mean, that's a really good question. Milan always breaks itself down into parcels. So you have the things that are very ecologically conscious or very environmentally or futuristic minded, and that's one whole kind of parcel. And then you have the oldies but goodies that are being brought back often because companies, especially if they're facing hard economic times, they're going to look back in their catalogs and do revivals. And that hasn't changed year in and year out. You also see all sorts of wonderful things coming back, like Joe Colombo, chair for Cartel, or Pierre Polene doing a relaunch of his 2up5 50 piece for Artefow. I mean, so you're going to have those sorts of things as well. Messages are always like, the past was fantastic. Isn't it great that we have it back? The future's looking dire, but isn't it great that designers are addressing that the way that Benjamin Hubert and Layer Studio did with a bunch of prototypes that they showed at Corsicomo? And then there's the whole color palette deal because when you're looking for trends at Sone, it's sort of like, you know, you are Ms. Pantone. What is going on with color? What is the message of the palettes that I'm seeing? And sometimes those messages or things are, like, going, I don't know if that's true, but it sounds good. But I can tell you, Dennis, that there is no question in my mind that we are seeing this same color palette. This year was like, a blue that has been dulled, a chestnut that's not quite oxblood, kind of a dullish reddish brown, and then there is dulled green. So in other words, dark age, drier, duller color of the primaries. And I wrote a story years ago for the Wall Street Journal where I examined the color teal, and I came to the conclusion that the color teal was completely connected to really affluent times. Like 1920s, came back in the 1950s, came back in the 1980s. It was right back there in the early 2000s, before the recession. And what we're seeing now is, like, that teal has gone really dull. Same with. When I said oxblood, it might have sounded like that's kind of a weird reference. But oxblood's another one of these colors that come from prosperous times where I think people have enough money to feel like they can make really just sort of radical choices and then throw it out next year if they don't like the way the teal or the axe blood looks. And we tend to go into more neutral territory. Of course, if we're pulling back, we weren't quite there in neutrals. Next year, everything might be beige. But this year, I definitely saw that there was this already a cautionary toning down of the palette and especially those reds and those blues and those greens.
- [45:25]
Dennis Scully
So darker, drier, potentially signaling a little bit of a financial concern, a little bit of people pulling back a bit.
- [45:34]
Julie Lasky
And maybe not showing. If you actually have resources, maybe you don't want to flaunt them. Possibly. Possibly.
- [45:40]
Dennis Scully
Okay, Interesting. All right. Well, I love that you've given us some history on teal and what that's meant over the years. We're not in a teal moment.
- [45:50]
Julie Lasky
It sounds like we're so not in a teal moment. And, you know, it's funny. I had done that story for the Wall Street Journal, and I thought they'd be all into it, because I was making the claim that you can actually have it as an index of where the economy is going. Looking at teal, if you see that blue getting bright, that's the time to buy. And you know what? They didn't care. They didn't believe me.
- [46:13]
Dennis Scully
Forget the ten year treasury. You should be looking at teal.
- [46:16]
Julie Lasky
Exactly.
- [46:17]
Dennis Scully
What's happening?
- [46:18]
Julie Lasky
Did they listen to me? No.
- [46:21]
Dennis Scully
I can't believe you couldn't convince the Wall Street Journal of that. I know, well, but, but now we have that as an indicator. So now we have the teal indicator and you bet I'm going to be monitoring that closely. I don't know what to read into. Into butter yellow's big moment. Then what. What does butter yellow tell us about how we're feeling or, or how optimistic people are?
- [46:41]
Julie Lasky
I don't know. I only saw one butter yellow room and it was fabulous. It was, it, it was fabulous. Somebody. And again I, I don't, I didn't write down their name. I'm ridiculously, you know, like such a bad journalist. But I did go into and, and if anybody wants to contact me, I will find it and let you know. There was. Was an installation done by an interior architecture firm where they did one room that was. Everything was butter yellow. And I thought that is just. It took a really big leap of faith to put everything in that color and it really worked.
- [47:12]
Dennis Scully
Did you get to the fair itself and was there anything that stuck out there which I tend to think of as things that we might be more likely to see coming to America sometimes?
- [47:26]
Julie Lasky
Yeah, no. I did get to the fair and it was really remarkable. So this was the year of Iroluce, the lighting show. And lighting is always interesting, so this was no exception. I was particularly taken with a project by Doshi Levine that they did for the lighting company Vibia, where they did a lamp that was based out of fabric. Every year you see innovative works with textiles. But I found a lot that was very interesting this year and this was where they were using a checked fabric and they were using a Japanese pattern cutting method of creating a very lamp that was really about the textile. And you know, this has been one of the great joys of LEDs is that they're cool enough that she can mix them with any kind of material. So this fabric, it was still in a prototype stage. And Deshy Levine, this couple, lovely couple, Nipa Doshi and Jonathan Levine were going it's not quite there, it's not quite there. But I'm really looking forward to when it is there. It looked extremely promising also in that textile interesting trend. Also at the fair were Jaime high on stools for Nanny Marquina, which basically looked like carpets that had been Folded and then stuck on their ends on the floor and then you could sit on them. The whole notion was that the entire, entire structure of the piece looked like it was created by carpeting. And then Magis, the German company, I thought had a really wonderful display this year that was, I felt, was super strong. And there was a prototype for a sound absorbing upholstered furniture. Like, of course we have upholstered furniture, they're called chairs. But these were like. These were like, you know, like dressers and credenza type pieces that had been had the sound absorbing fabric that was put on them. And they were very, very intriguing.
- [49:22]
Dennis Scully
So with the idea that these pieces of furniture would help to quiet the whole room.
- [49:27]
Julie Lasky
Exactly.
- [49:28]
Dennis Scully
Interesting. Okay, well, so I'm curious. I feel as though there was this conversation about more people were pulling out of the fair and just showing around town or out of town. Is that part of what has been going on and is that still going on? What was. What was your sense of that?
- [49:48]
Julie Lasky
Well, yeah, I mean, there has been the movement of some major companies leaving the fairgrounds and going into the city at large part of the Fiore Salone, or the larger entity of Milan Design Week. Definitely the total number of exhibitors at the fair has gone down. I mean, in 2023, there were 1,991 total exhibitors. Last year, 1,950. So a slight decrease. I don't know what the number was this year. I did see that, you know, now the fair is laid out all on one level and there has been especially near a Lucci, a redesign so that the, you know, have this feeling of tight little booze all kind of crammed together, that there's a more spacious feeling, it's easier and more comfortable to walk around and see the exact exhibits. That seems to have been partially motivated by a decrease in the number of exhibitors. But the end result is it felt really good. I mean, you're never going to have the same experience walking around a fairground, you know, in a convention center as you are going to do around the streets of Milan or in the wonderful little palaces and boutiques where they put design. But I did find the experience was better. It was crazy crowded as ever. But it still felt like you could see more because I think that more space had been allotted to individual booths, at least the ones that I had seen.
- [51:15]
Dennis Scully
Well, so when you think about what people are going to be talking about most coming out of Milan, you've mentioned several things that made an impression on you. What do you think most people Will take away. And are there things that you can imagine imagine people dining out on for some time to come?
- [51:37]
Julie Lasky
Well, I think the fashion labels, as usual, came in. They're stunning. Doing stunning presentations, eating everybody else's lunch for the most part, because the investment is so enormous and the results are so spectacular. I tend not to go to all of them because I feel like they'll get plenty of coverage, and I'd rather see if I can root out some of the things that are not getting. Going to have the same amount of press. But I did, for instance, go to Hermes because, you know, you have to.
- [52:09]
Dennis Scully
You couldn't help yourself.
- [52:11]
Julie Lasky
Sure, it was a beautiful exhibition, but I think one of the things that was noticeable about it was that what they were pushing out there was still pretty modest for Hermes. I mean, stunning glassware. So beautiful, colorful, perfect, perfect, pure beautiful. Glass fire cashmere textiles throws. They were so lovely. But that was kind of it. In this space called La Palota in the Brera neighborhood, which has been legendary for the kinds of displays that's been there. This was as beautiful a display as any I've ever seen in terms of way that it was constructed. But the objects that were filling it suggested to me that we are seeing even now that, pulling back, that, you know, as you're observing at the beginning of the podcast, there has been problems, economic problems going on globally, and that there is surely going to be some kind of reflection of that at the fair. And here we are at Hermes, and I was thinking, wow, really beautiful. But what I'm seeing, but in terms of the kind of, I don't know, innovation or the scale of it, it seemed like it was pretty small within this really stunning exhibition space and this really beautifully managed display. And one thing I would point out in terms of that is if you're an old hand at Milan, like I am, you kind of make comparisons like this space, La Palota, which, you know, which is La Palota refers to highlight, the game of highlight. So it looks like a sports arena, but in a very elegant way. It has hosted some of the most spectacular presentations in people's memories. And, you know, I remember the old established and Sons, this British company, doing these chests stuffed with the most remarkable furniture in that exact same space. Or I remember the year that Vitra took all of its, you know, basic production and arranged it very artistically, as if the chairs and tables were in conversations with each other in that exact space. So to see some lovely vases and cashmere throws, even by Hermes, just.
- [54:26]
Dennis Scully
Just made you think Are they even trying? I mean, come on.
- [54:29]
Julie Lasky
Or what's going. I mean, far from me to make any analysis of Hermes, you know, for all I know, they've got teal on the, you know, ready to, you know, display. But it just felt like it reminded me that a friend of mine who's a photographer who was walking around part of the fair with me this year, looked in and said, what's with all the glass vases? Why so many glass vases this year? And maybe one of the answers, and I don't know if Hermes should be even in this group, but maybe one of the answers has to do with that glass is very easy to make, beautiful and innovative and portable. Not a lot of R and D goes into a glass vase and you can have really huge results from it. So I think if we're looking, looking at other indicators, economic indicators, in addition to the dull blue, you might look at the glass faces. Oh, and mirrors. Lots of really interesting mirrors.
- [55:25]
Dennis Scully
Right, right. So in a few weeks, it will be ICFF and NYC by design and everything that's going on in New York. And there's always this feeling of, gosh, why can't New York be more like Milan? This great city with everything that it has to offer. Why doesn't it turn itself in the same way that Milan does? What's your sense of that?
- [55:51]
Julie Lasky
It's a question I've been asking for literally decades, and I think it's a combination of things. One is that I think the culture of design is so powerful in Milan and it engages everybody in that community. So that helps a lot that when we put on design fairs in New York, and it's very different from Fashion Week, but with the design fairs, they tend to get swallowed in the middle of all the other activities. And I've often said that I don't understand how like a million people can come out and watch the marathon every November and they can't be bothered to go out and see what's going on in Design Week, even though there has been an attempt by the city to advertise it in taxis and through posters and other forms of promotion. The other or another consideration is that Milan does provide these wonderful places to see design. And. And I think that the Alcove Fair has succeeded so well. It's now the fifth or sixth year as a side fair that happens during the Design Week because it has made it its business to go into interesting places. And even if you travel a bit from Milan to go there, which you had to do, and it took about Half an hour minimum to get out to where you needed to go to see what was there. I personally think the destination made it worth it. I also thought there was good design that was worth seeing. But that's always the concern, is that there's so much to see, so little time to see it. I don't want to risk going a long way and being disappointed. But if I'm going to a beautiful palace like, you know, the Villa Baghetti Valsecchi, or, you know, if I'm going to this great modernist 1930s, I believe, building the Villa Borsa, actually I've reached a destination. It could be empty, and it's been worth my time. Other editors may not say that, but I definitely think that that's the case. And it's been very successful for a lot of the places in Milan.
- [57:53]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, maybe we have to talk to the marathon organizers and get some tips.
- [57:57]
Julie Lasky
For sure. Right, for sure.
- [58:00]
Dennis Scully
But, Julie, I want to thank you so much for making the time. It's such a pleasure to talk with you about all of this and your generous to make the time.
- [58:08]
Julie Lasky
Oh, thank you for having me. It was a real pleasure.
- [58:11]
Dennis Scully
I'm joined now by interior designer Ghislan Vignas, who is just returned from Milan and is going to tell us all about her experiences while she was there. So it seems like hundreds of thousands of people descended on Milan. They've been sending me numerous reports of just.
- [58:31]
Ghislaine Vignas
Yeah, 500,000.
- [58:33]
Dennis Scully
Is that right? Is that what you heard? Okay, well, that's. That's a huge number. But how did the mood feel in general? Were people feeling pretty upbeat?
- [58:42]
Ghislaine Vignas
Oh, absolutely.
- [58:43]
Dennis Scully
Yeah.
- [58:43]
Ghislaine Vignas
There was a great. I mean, everywhere we went, there was just a great vibe. And you know what, it was a bit of a weird time, right, because the tariff thing had just hit, so.
- [58:55]
Dennis Scully
But they weren't. It sounded like they weren't letting that get in the way.
- [58:58]
Ghislaine Vignas
Oh, no, no, no, no. Everybody was. So. So, yeah, there was really a very jovial, positive attitude kind of everywhere. I think it was. It's also like, it was the beginning of spring. It was just like, it's very hot and absolutely gorgeous weather. So I think that everybody felt very. Just happy and yeah, it was a very, very positive vibe, for sure.
- [59:23]
Dennis Scully
Well, so I'm always curious from a commercial standpoint, because so often, often when you go to see various installations, they seem more art and creativity driven than they do necessarily commerce driven. Like, oh, I can't wait to get home and order 10 of those that I just saw this kind of one of a Kind light fixture, but a. Did you find things that you could imagine wanting to order or incorporate somehow, or did you find things that even just made you think about doing something in a different way, which is, I suppose, part of the inspiration part.
- [60:03]
Ghislaine Vignas
I would definitely say more of the inspiration part. I'm not really going there thinking I'm going to find specific products if I do, or new designs. I think it's just. And I don't go with expectations of what I'll see. I think I'm just taking it in. And it's a long way to go for seeing a daffodil on the street, but it kind of is daffodil in.
- [60:28]
Dennis Scully
The lawn next to that church. I mean, that's a. That's a whole different. I mean, that's a whole different guy daffodil.
- [60:35]
Ghislaine Vignas
For God's sake.
- [60:36]
Dennis Scully
It's a Milanese daffodil. That is. That is absolutely worth the trip. I mean, forget the ones that are in my backyard at this very moment when you could see it.
- [60:46]
Ghislaine Vignas
Yeah, no, no, it's much more about that. It's. It's the. The word juxtaposition just comes to mind and it's really strong for me because it's, it is so much new with so much old, with so much history, with so much. I mean, I'm always more interested in the sort of the stranger, weirder, odder, kind of unexpected sort of things. So. Yeah, and I think that's the whole thing that you never know what you're going to see and you're so. Everything is such a surprise, you know, because there's not a lot that lets. I mean, you kind of know something, what's going on, but there's nothing. A lot of. Not a lot to see on Instagram beforehand.
- [61:24]
Julie Lasky
Everything.
- [61:25]
Ghislaine Vignas
It's a big reveal when you're there. So that was beautiful. You know, Alcoa was absolutely so beautiful. And so, you know, it was. Alcoa took place just about like a half an hour out of the city.
- [61:43]
Dennis Scully
And tell people what that is. So tell people what Alcoa is.
- [61:45]
Ghislaine Vignas
It's an amazing platform where they show very innovative exhibitions. And they had it in the town of Viredo. It was in four different buildings. As you go there, there's four different buildings. One of them, the first one we went to was this incredible Villa Bagati and it's this 19th century Lombard villa. And it's just amazing. And inside it there were all these different design, different kind of rooms. And it's very global. Like Japanese designers There are a bunch of Japanese designers and, and sort of from all over the the world. It's very, very special and, and surprising and lovely and interesting. And also there you're out of the city, so the, the space is kind of bigger and people milling around and you know, you can get a coffee whenever you want or a Negroni and you sitting down. And it is a sort of wonderland, you know, where you easy to forget what's going on in the, in the real world. And lucky for the people who get to go and experience that, you know, it's such a, it's great for every designer possibly to try and go there once in their life, you know, just to experience the whole thing. You know, some people go all the time and I think different design shows in different countries have different energies and you get different things from them. But you know, this could not have been timed better.
- [63:22]
Dennis Scully
And as you were saying, I mean, it's also, it's such an international show and often we Americans are very American centric. And when you go to Milan and I saw the breakdown of the numbers, I think representatives from the U.S. were less than 3% of the show's attendees.
- [63:44]
Ghislaine Vignas
Oh, really?
- [63:45]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. So I mean, it's really, it's a very global, global show. And that actually you seem like you're probably bumping into a bunch of Americans while you're there. Right. But really it's people from all over the world and the American representation is actually a pretty small part. I think that's also an interesting part of the experience. It really is such a global show. And again, you're seeing things that you just wouldn't in a show here in America. Nothing against ICFF or some of these other very contemporary shows.
- [64:23]
Ghislaine Vignas
There were a lot of people saying, like, why can't New York have this caliber? I was like, well, this is sort of a global stage here, you know, and I mean, obviously it's not the first time that I've heard this, but you know, I think New York is moving towards that. You know, in some, you can't compare. You know, different cities have different ways of doing this. And I think that Milan has just been doing this for such a long time and there's such history there.
- [64:52]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I think it's a great point and we were having this discussion just recently because of course NYC by Design is coming up in just a few weeks and ICFF and there's always this clamoring for why isn't New York able to put on a show like that. But Miles Milan especially is so programmed to put on a show. Fashion Week is huge there, and there's so much fashion overlap with what's going on with furniture and design over there, and so many huge fashion brands. LVMH and many of its sister brands were putting on huge installations, and. And they're partially fashion, right? And they're partially interior. Prada had a bunch of things going on. So the city itself just seems always geared up to put on a show like that. But it will be interesting to see more and more how parts of it perhaps could come to New York.
- [65:58]
Ghislaine Vignas
But I think that there were some really interesting things that were going on there. For example, example, Casina had a staging. It was called Staging Modernity. And it was in this theater. And I knew nothing about this. So we just passed, and I was like, we should. Or maybe Mia told me we should go in here. It was the 60th anniversary of the Le Cobis bustier, and they had former flat Tasma do the. Do the installation. So when you. When you go. When you go in, it's this theater. All these red chairs have been moved around you. You start on the stage. And so I thought there were all these just iconic, you know, stages of platforms throughout where the audience usually sits. But then, you know, I'm going through. Then the lighting is exquisite, and there's, like, beautiful soundtrack going on. And then all of a sudden, these actors come out of nowhere and start interacting with the. And then there's a whole story and singing. And so it's a whole theater piece that was kind of pulled into it. And you were like, oh, my God. Okay. Well, I didn't know this was gonna happen. And it was so delightful. You know, it was just such a. I mean, I also. We also just happened to go in at a time where there were no actors there yet. And then. So we were walking around, and we're like, oh, what's this person doing? Oh, wait, what? You know, so it's. It was really beautiful. And this theatrical performance, and it was all about the natural world and animals and also the history of Cassina and Le Corbusier and all of this interesting stuff. It was fantastic. Absolutely bewildering and lovely and enchanting.
- [67:57]
Dennis Scully
Well, again, I feel like. And how. How extraordinary that all sounds. And it's hard for me to imagine them putting that on at ICFF or in New York somehow. But I'm often in awe of how these companies can tell a brand story like that. And what an incredible way to celebrate an anniversary of a collaboration that Is so renowned.
- [68:25]
Ghislaine Vignas
Good creative directors.
- [68:27]
Dennis Scully
Yes, well. And I feel like they're willing to invest the money, the time, and to really latch onto a big idea like that and then just execute it at such a high level.
- [68:39]
Ghislaine Vignas
Yeah, well.
- [68:40]
Dennis Scully
So anything else that you got to see that stuck out in your mind?
- [68:44]
Ghislaine Vignas
Absolutely. So Patricia Akilah is just. I mean, she can do no wrong.
- [68:50]
Dennis Scully
She's a force.
- [68:50]
Ghislaine Vignas
So she did a. There was a exhibition by Elder Cortelia, and it was kind of like all about living indoors and garden rooms. And so she did quite a big space that had sort of a cross going through it, sort of these four quadrants. And it was. It was just the most magical space. It was in a beautiful old building. She kind of conceived it as a double telescoping space. So one. One was towards a window greenery, and then the other was, like towards a digital dreamscape. So she had all these beautiful furniture pieces, all this ceramic. The ceramic tile. It was a dreamscape, for sure. And it was all about botanicals. I mean, you didn't really have to really fully understand what you were looking at because it was such a delight. And the forms and the shapes and the colors and the audio and the lighting, I think that was a huge thing as well. The amount of audio and lighting in the installations was that you just got that it wasn't just visual, you know, that it was just really capturing all the senses, and it really made a huge difference. So often, I mean, I'm surprised I didn't trip there or fall or, you know, chip a tooth or something, because very often the lighting was very low just to get that ambiance in, and then you're going down creaky stairs. You know, I made it without a single injury, but. And it made the mood sort of so special, and it just really transported you into this world that these designers wanted to put you in.
- [70:39]
Dennis Scully
Well, so it sounds as though. I mean. And again, this is part of the magic of going to this show. It sounds like it is an uplifting and inspiring, inspiring show that you come home with a feeling that I hope lasts for quite a while. I mean, I hope that you feel uplifted in a way that perhaps spurs some new creativity or just affects how you feel in general.
- [71:11]
Ghislaine Vignas
I think I process the energy in a way that brings on creativity for me. So I don't think it's quite a direct. Direct, you know, like, I see things and I use them. I think it's just more of being in such an inspiring place and seeing how there are Such creative people out there doing such wonderful things, and we really see a lot of the same. And with, you know, with the. With the Internet and Instagram, it's really hard to see stuff that is truly surprising. It takes a level of genius, I think, to come up with something that you feel is really fresh. And there were things that I saw there that I felt was just really exhilarating and fun. And I think it challenges me always to kind of think differently. That's when I think I do very good work or my best work is when I'm thinking outside of the norm or combining things or fusing things that shouldn't live together or be together. And it's the oddities that. That I sort of love. So it does give you a. It also sort of gives you a stop and refresh and kind of start again, which is great. Yeah, it's just. I feel very lucky to be able to go and enjoy this and be a part of this, you know?
- [72:36]
Dennis Scully
Well, and do you. And do you tell clients. So here you go away for a week. Do you tell clients, listen, I'm going over. Over to. To Milan and, And do you. Do you share with them anything that you. That you take away from it, or is it more sort of personal for you?
- [72:52]
Ghislaine Vignas
Yeah, I think it's a little bit more personal. Although my clients do know that I'm going, and I will, you know, text images of things that I seen to them, you know, with the clients that I have very close relationship with. I'll, you know, I saw this amazing sauna and texted. And then there was this light fixture that we were purchasing from the Future Perfect, which we had seen smaller versions of it, but then I saw the actual version that's like four foot, like almost five feet, five foot long sconce. So we saw that and I took a picture and sent it to my client of me standing next to it. And so, yeah, there's connections there, but it really is just for myself. I go, you know, know for the team members to be inspired to, you know, to. Yeah, it's a refresh, a reset. I'm bursting with ideas and things that I want new energy and it's fun.
- [73:47]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's great. Well, I'm thrilled to get to talk to you about it. And I, And I thank you so much for making the time to chat with me.
- [73:53]
Ghislaine Vignas
Thank you, Dennis. Thanks for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure.
- [74:00]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight, highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred.
- [74:08]
Fred Nick
Tick tock caught my eye this week, Dennis. I think, I think it's still legal as, as of the time of this recording, but apparently one of the kind of funny side effects of these 145% tariffs on China is that apparently, allegedly Chinese factories that Make Like RH Furniture are making an appeal directly on TikTok to say, hey, you don't want to pay that tariff. Just work with us directly and we'll see. Sell you a cloud sofa, which is, I don't know, it's a funny little viral moment. I feel like we need to do a deep investigation of whether this is real or not. But I would just urge listeners not to place that order because I'm guessing the return policy on a TikTok factory is maybe a little, a little dicey. Did you see those as well, Dennis?
- [74:48]
Dennis Scully
I was inundated with them and so many people sending me things and should I be worried about this was the question. And I feel no, do not worry about people going to China and trying to have it made on their own. Listen, are there some people that are going to do that? Sure, knock yourself out. Good luck. But I don't think that's going to take any major business away from anyone in the short term, and it is a wildly complicated process, so don't enter into it lightly. We should talk about it more because there's, there's much to discuss there.
- [75:20]
Fred Nick
Yeah. Well, what got your are this weekend?
- [75:22]
Dennis Scully
Well, the, the earlier piece that we talked about, the, the DIY article was actually part of the New York Times Magazine section that was all about real estate and home. And there are actually quite a few interesting articles to read about, but the one that particularly caught my eye was an article on bunkers. Yes. People having underground bunkers built in their home. And it's apparently so loud laughing matter. There's, there's quite a number of, of bunkers and sort of safe rooms and some escape patches that people are, are having built. And so I want to hear from designers out there about, about the bunkers that they're building for people. That is no doubt a fascinating conversation. What's bunker decor look like these days? I don't know.
- [76:09]
Fred Nick
Bunker chic.
- [76:10]
Dennis Scully
Right. I mean, and, and White Lotus. Are you bringing a little bit of White Lotus into the bunkers and doing that? I don't know. Like, what do you want it to feel like? So, I mean, that, that was interesting to me. The other thing that I wanted to talk about is, as we said earlier, High Point is just around the corner. And one of the big things going on at High Point is a return to the High Point theater with the with the big laloy panel that I will be moderating with with none other than Jeremiah Brent and Naz Nozawa, who we talk about often on the show. Mikel Welsh, Brian Paquette and Ashley Montgomery will be joining me on stage. So how anyone is going to get a word in edgewise on that huge panel, I don't know. But it is no doubt going to be a very fun panel and I hope to see many of our listeners there.
- [76:58]
Fred Nick
The can't miss show of the market, right?
- [77:01]
Dennis Scully
Absolutely. Just another reason to go to High Point. One, to find out what things are going to cost going forward and two, to to see that fun panel. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastbusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.