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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: How algorithms broke design culture. Plus: Tariff price hikes are here
01:01:53
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, New Yorker staff writer Kyle Chayka joins the show to discuss his book Filterworld—an examination of how algorithmically powered social media has flattened taste.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to journalist Kyle Schaika about his book Filter World and how algorithms have shaped our taste. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including tariff price hikes, a New York design show debuting this spring, and why Butter Yellow is on the rise to do all that. I'm joel, joined by Mrs. O.F. holmes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:36]
Fred Nicholaus
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:37]
Dennis Scully
Feeling so much better. How about you?
- [00:40]
Fred Nicholaus
I know this is odd. You're back in New York from LA and you're not sick. This is a very strange recording session. Did you have a good time in Los Angeles?
- [00:48]
Dennis Scully
I had a great trip. Got to see a lot of good people, and we raised a lot of money for the. For the Love of Home charity fundraiser for Fire Relief. So I was. I was thrilled to be out there.
- [00:58]
Fred Nicholaus
But you missed a very important event, Dennis. The debut of, and I'm going to say item printemps. There we go.
- [01:07]
Dennis Scully
There we go.
- [01:08]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. I had a French friend, like, do a voicemail recording of how I should say it, and I think she's probably shaking her head right now at that one. Yes. So the debut of this incredible new department store here in New York, that was all the talk of all the design media. I didn't realize I was invited until you mentioned it on last week's show. I looked through my email, I found an invite, and I went, and I gotta say, it's pretty spectacular. Are you making a plan to head down there yourself?
- [01:34]
Dennis Scully
I am. I'm planning to be there this weekend. But I'm. I'm so excited that you got to be there for the opening and how nice that you and Parker posed. You could be reunited after so many years. That was fun to see.
- [01:44]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. Me and Parker go way back. About 20 years ago, I was in the background of a photo taken of her, so that's my claim to fame. Yeah, but it's. It's honestly, you know, I think all the hype is. Is well deserved. It's. They really did it to the nines. You know, every room is some amazing new spectacle. You know, even the bathroom hardware is very high quality. It truly is just, you know, the power of design put to work in service of retail. I'm almost like, a little bit scared because if this thing doesn't do well, then I think people are going to question, you know, does design really drive people to go shopping in stores? But, you know, I think it won't be for lack of trying because the designer, Laura Gonzalez really went all out. It's an incredible place to visit and certainly a must go if you make it here to New York.
- [02:27]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, yeah. No, it really looks extraordinary. And as you say, it's such a design driven space. I can't think of anything since when Peter Marino redid Tiffany for that big opening that there's been so much design buzz about a, about a retail location. And I think so many people are just going to want to trek down to the Financial district to see it and hopefully it will thrive in that location, which is a little bit challenging.
- [02:52]
Fred Nicholaus
I know. Yeah. It's funny you should mention the Tiffany's thing because I was there and a couple of their design writers were there and Melissa Feldman, a veteran design journalist, was talking about how it reminded her of the opening of Barney's. So, you know, hopefully it'll have similar success though not have the same fate of going under. And I'm just going to shout another design writer while I'm at it. But Diana Buds, a great design journalist, was. We were both talking about how opulent it was at a time that's supposed to be sort of a little more austere. And she was joking like, what French tax loophole does this take advantage of? Because they truly spared no expense. But anyway, enough yammering about and let's, let's move on to Monday's show. An interview with designer David Phoenix. Fun one. What'd you think of it, Dennis?
- [03:31]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, a fun one. What a great conversation. David is one of those people that so many people had said to me, hey, you should really have David Phoenix on the show. He's got so many great stories to tell. And yes, yes, he does, having gone through a lot of personal hardships, but also some incredible good fortune befell him at a young age and got his design firm started. So there was a lot to talk about with him. What did you think?
- [03:59]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, I mean, really triumphs and tragedies, a lot of great stories. And as you mentioned, yeah, he had this incredibly, it sounded like very difficult childhood. Left home at an early age, struggled with addiction. But then sort of at the end of that, he just happened to be kind of connected to Barry Diller. And Barry Diller literally pressed a button on his desk. It was like, here's your design career. And I think, I mean, but the thing is you're only, you know, you get your luck, but you have to take your chance. And I think that, you know, David has very much taken that chance and, you know, taken advantage of the luck that he's gotten and built a, you know, a sustainable career. You only get lucky a few times and then you have to, you know, build a multi decorating career, which he very much has done. A lot of good business tips in there too. He talks about how he like, vets clients and some interesting tidbits about like, what's the ideal size of a firm. Spoiler alert. It's small. So lots of, lots of great stories, lots of fun little business tips. Definitely a good listen indeed.
- [04:51]
Dennis Scully
I hope people will enjoy it. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get to the news.
- [05:01]
Kyle Chayka
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- [05:49]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. First up, Fred, tariff price hikes.
- [05:53]
Fred Nicholaus
They're here. The last time we talked about tariffs on the show, they had barely begun to hit the home industry. But in the weeks since, many brands have rolled out price increases. Dennis, have you been seeing evidence of this? Have designers been dming you on Instagram about prices going up?
- [06:08]
Dennis Scully
I'm hearing a lot of buzz and the question is, Fred, and here I was hoping we were going to have a tariff free show, but no, no. The question is just how bad is it? Fred?
- [06:19]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. We've been doing some reporting on this at Business of Home and of course, brands don't generally sound out of press release when they're raising prices to the media, but you do kind of catch wind of it and people do send out notices to their. So what we've been really seeing is brands taking one of two tacks. One, they add a very small percentage across the board on everything. Like for example, noir added I think was 4% on all of their items. Or they try and take a more targeted approach where they rise prices a little bit more like 12 to 15% on very specific pieces of merchandise and see how that goes. But you know, you really are seeing these tariffs actually impact prices in a very real way. You know, there was a Letter from company called the Howard Elliott Collection that went out to their customers. And the CEO is making the point that like, look, we are getting these same price increase notices from our vendors who supply us with fabric and materials. So that is why this is happening. And here are the decisions we're making. So this is, this is very much happening.
- [07:18]
Dennis Scully
No, it is very much happening and it's challenging, as you say, because there is still this lack of clarity about what the final numbers will ultimately be where we're told that April 2nd, what I believe the administration is referring to as Liberation Day. I don't know if we'll feel liberated come April 2nd from all of this, but supposedly we're going to get a great deal more clarity and understand if perhaps many countries are going to have tariffs imposed with their goods coming in. But a lot of companies that you talk to are tiptoeing towards price increases, but also say we're really not sure. Many of them sound like they're trying to keep them relatively low in that sort of 4 to 6% range. But I was surprised to see that Masco, the big group that owns so many brands like Delta Faucet and Newport Brass and just a ton of sort of home related products sort of made it sound as if across the board you should expect price increases. And a lot of designers said that they were hearing the same from big appliance makers and kitchen companies that price increases were definitely coming.
- [08:31]
Fred Nicholaus
Now, I guess my question is like, do you really think a 4 to 6% price like makes a difference, especially for designers? You know, I don't know that anyone's going to choose a different vendor purely based on that low of, of a, of an increase. But maybe it's different for retailers. I don't know. What's your perception of that?
- [08:48]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, I definitely haven't heard anybody talking in a, in a serious way about having to make a substitution because of a price increase that they've heard about so far. And I think to your point, there's, there's more sympathy. I feel like this time around I felt like during COVID a lot of people felt like companies got carried away with price increases. A lot of companies got greedy. Let's bring Maersk into this. Why not throw them in? But, but I think a lot of people feel differently this time around. And to your point about sort of working with your suppliers and your vendors, I got the sense that a lot of designers were sort of having regular communications with suppliers and being more understanding that they don't know what's going to happen. The suppliers are trying to articulate as much as they can and everyone feels like we're trying to get through this together.
- [09:42]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I hear that too. And I'm hopeful that this will be the glue that binds the industry back together after being torn asunder during COVID But you know, you mentioned earlier April 2, I think we'll know a lot more then because there are these promised announcements of more tariffs across the world. And I'll tell you that one country I'm geek keeping a very close eye on is Vietnam because so much production from China has gone to Vietnam. It left there in 2018 and it's been a steady flow ever since then. And I will tell you that they are very concerned about that in Vietnam. And if there's a big tariff on Vietnam, like that is really going to shoot prices up because so many brands make stuff there. I talked to one guy who does, you know, who works in Vietnam and he says that he's already had, you know, multiple seminars from the government about it. Everyone's trying to figure out what's going to happen. So, you know, April 2nd and Vietnam are two things that, you know, I'm going to be paying very close attention to.
- [10:29]
Dennis Scully
I agree. And listen, we haven't heard what's going to happen with, with Europe. I was talking to a designer the other day who had just gotten back from London who was saying that was very much top of mind at the Chelsea Harbour Design center. When they were doing some talks, many of the British brands were expressing real concern about what price increases might look like for for them. And so nobody, nobody's excited about this. But perhaps again, April 2nd will bring some, some clarity. Whether it will be good news or bad, we'll find out soon enough. Okay, next up, a new design market in New York. E Commerce brand Afternoon Light is partnering with trade show giant and More for the debut of a new three day market called Shelter, which is set to take place this spring during New York's Design Week. Another event added on to New York Design Week to help me better understand what this event is really all about. Fred, I'm so excited.
- [11:23]
Fred Nicholaus
You're a New York Design Week doubter. Yeah. Well, let's kind of define what this is before we get into trying to explain what New York Design Week is to Dennis. So Afternoon Light is an E Commerce site started by Minya Quirk and Deirdre Meloni, who you may remember from Shop Object. They helped found it with Jess James Rather and before that they had started a trade show in the fashion world. So they were very much trade show experts. And I think it was during COVID they launched this site and the idea was that it was sort of, I mean it wasn't exactly like shop object but make it E commerce. But it is like cool, maybe slightly lesser known brands like home decor, home textiles, furniture that doesn't get sold on some of the bigger platforms or isn't as successful on the bigger platforms. So it's kind of like an E commerce platform for the cool kids is how I described it when we first covered the debut and I was speaking to them for this piece and they were talking about how I think frankly they're a little exhausted with E commerce and they were just talking about how much such a drag to deal with SEO and all that. And they wanted to get back into doing something in the real world. And so their idea is let's throw a show during New York's Design Week, but let's make it a little bit different. So unlike ICFF and Wanted, the two, you know, or the co located big shows of Design Week, this is going to have a cash and carry component so you can actually go and buy stuff there. Obviously probably not too many sofas, but if you want to buy like a little clock or a pillow, you'll be able to do that. It's also open to consumers like unlike ICFF and Wanted, which are, you know, I guess consumers maybe can go but it's, it's very expensive and most, most people who go there are in. In the. In the biz. This event shelter will be open to people who just fans of design. So it's a little bit of, you know, it's a little bit of an interesting spin with a couple interesting components and I'm really curious to see how it does.
- [13:06]
Dennis Scully
I'm really curious to see how it does too. And I thought the cash and carry component is, is interesting. I think people are always looking for more of that. I was curious to your point about the distinction between ICFF and Wanted and some of the other events that go on again during this curious New York Design Week. I know that Carl Hansen and USM were some of the vendors that were that were listed and it sounds like there's going to be quite a few more. So these are companies that aren't going to be also showing at icff. Is that the idea? Or they might have representation in both places or.
- [13:38]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean that's my understanding. I didn't go like one by one through all the brands, but generally either the company is maybe like a little smaller, more hipster y and doesn't show at ICFF and Wanted, or it's like a European company that, for whatever reason, hasn't traditionally done icff. Now, there may be some crossover there. I'm sure some brands might think, well, we're going there for one show. You might as well do both. But I do think, you know, they're trying to present something a little bit different. And we should say that, you know, within the geography of New York, this place, this show shelter is taking place just 10 blocks south of the Javits center, where ICFF/ wanted is going to be. So there is going to be a sense of maybe competition is the wrong word, but they're obviously trying to be close to where that big show is and probably catch some of the traffic. You go to one show and then go to the other one in the afternoon. But then, of course, they're trying to reach consumers, too. I mean, that, to me, is really the really curious part about this. Deirdre and many other people who are starting it talked about how there's this big audience of people who are kind of like design hipsters, people who are really into USM and want to see what these brands are doing. We'll make the trek out to the Far west side to check this out. I'm really curious about that. I always wonder how much consumers are really aware of a brand like, you know, usm, for example. I mean, I know they do have their fans and people do show up, but I wonder if it'll have, you know, the draw that they need to fill the space. But, you know, they very well could. These people have done trade shows before. I don't doubt them. I'm just very curious to see what the audience ends up being.
- [15:00]
Dennis Scully
No, I agree. I'm very curious about it, too. And it's funny because I joke about not really understanding New York Design Week. And I feel like I've been talking for years about how I want New York Design Week to come together in some big meaningful way and have all of these places. You know, I would love for the D and D building and some of the other design spaces around, around New York also be participating in a meaningful way and have it feel like there is so much. I mean, there's always a lot going on in SoHo, and I guess now that a lot of the big Italian companies have a presence on Madison Avenue, I assume there'll be a lot Little Italy there. Exactly. So there'll be a lot going on there.
- [15:36]
Kyle Chayka
But it somehow.
- [15:37]
Dennis Scully
It just never. And I mean, you tell me how you feel, but it never felt cohesive to me in some way. And, like, I really understood how it was all tied together. Maybe this will help with that. I don't know.
- [15:48]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I mean, that has definitely been the refrain for a long time. And even Minya and Deirdre mentioned this, is that they always sort of wanted. You know, they went to Design Week last year and they were like, oh, this has got good energy, but it feels a little scattered, like, what can we do to add to the mix? And, you know, it's always. The complaint is always like, New York is a design capital, but somehow it isn't as good as Salone. And it's tough, you know, I mean, Salone has been Salone for a long time, and it takes a lot of time to build up to that. But I don't know. I'm a big fan of New York Design Week, maybe just because it's convenient for me, but I do think last year the energy was particularly good. I felt like people were really showing up at parties and really excited to be there. I felt like ICFF had wanted that kind of marriage, actually felt like it had really cohered into something last year. So, you know, maybe having one more big anchor show, if this does become a big anchor show, is a good thing and really focuses people's attention around the event. It has been a little scattered. It has been a little diffuse. I think every year I feel like we're moving in the right direction. And maybe in 10 years, people at Saloni will say, why can't it be more like New York Design Week? That probably won't happen, but it's a dream. It's a dream.
- [16:55]
Dennis Scully
Well, and perhaps with Andmore's involvement, that could happen. They're big guns, right?
- [17:00]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Yeah. That's kind of the funny thing about this, is that Afternoon Light is partnering with Anmore, which is a little bit like a cool boutique, hipster, indie rock label partnering with a giant record label. It's an interesting marriage of two different kinds of companies. And more, of course, the trade show giant that owns a lot of Las Vegas and High Point. Their involvement is a little bit. It's kind of roundabout. I think when they bought Shop Object, they obviously met Minya and Deirdre, and I think they're a natural partner to help sort of fund this and get it off the ground. But it is a little interesting. I mean, I think Anmore just wants to be more in New York. They don't have much of a presence here. So this is kind of a way to get their foot even more in the door. So that's another wild card about this. We'll see. I will certainly be going in maybe, and I hope you'll join me, Dennis, for a little cash and carry design experience.
- [17:45]
Dennis Scully
No, I look forward to it. And listen, Anmore is a nice deep pocketed partner to have. So it'll be interesting and we'll be there and we look forward to seeing everyone else there as well. Moving on, we're going to talk about designing for disaster.
- [17:58]
Kyle Chayka
Fred.
- [17:59]
Fred Nicholaus
This week BoH managing editor Haley Chouinard wrote a piece for the site speaking with designers in California and Florida about how their approach has changed now that hurricanes and wildfires are increasingly common. And yeah, a little bit of a bummer story, but I mean a good one and an important one especially because it really, you know, if the events of the last year have proven anything, it's that, you know, natural disasters are not a, they're not a maybe they're a given and we have to all, you know, accommodate that.
- [18:26]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I think so. And I think it's actually a really constructive piece that talked about very specific items that you can substitute and, and the idea of bringing outdoor cabinetry into kitchens and thinking about how all of your outdoor furniture might blow away in a hurricane and how you want to be able to carry that back into the house. But I think regardless of where you come down on climate change, it's just clear that we're having a lot more big storms and a lot more fires. And it is just part of the reality. And so I think it's great that these down to earth realistic conversations are being had.
- [19:08]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, no, completely. And yeah, I love that detail from Haley's story about these Florida designers who are like, yeah, you need to have outdoor finishes indoors here because there's going to be water in this house at some point. And that's, that's kind of a reality. It's interesting, particularly in la. Haley spoke with a lot of people there. They are obviously right now rebuilding huge parts of the city. And everyone there is thinking, well, how can we make our homes fireproof? How can we, there will be another fire. How can we make sure that we're one of the lucky ones next time? And it's really fascinating actually because there's this illusion or this idea that you can build a totally fireproof home. And what Haley talked, she talked to a couple people on the piece about this. It's difficult because you can. But what that home looks like is a concrete block. You have to have some give and take between a home that you actually want to live in and a home that is fire resilient. And those trade offs are very difficult. You want to think there's just some easy solution, put sprinklers on the roof, make everything out of concrete, and we're done. But it's not so simple. And it's interesting to get into the particulars of that.
- [20:07]
Dennis Scully
Absolutely. It is very interesting. And interesting how the whole conversation has to change. So here I am coming back from la, where we were having this big for the Love of Home event to raise money for fire relief. And so one of my guests was the architect, Michael Kovac of Kovac and, and he had built a home that survived the Palisade fires. And to your point, yes, it was equipped with a sprinkler on the roof that he could activate remotely that actually shot out flame retardant chemicals. And he had put some cement siding along the house. And there were also a lot of considerations about what was the vegetation around the house and screens that would catch embers and parts of the things that would catch fire. So his house did survive, as it turned out, the smoke damage was pretty extensive. And so he won't be occupying that house for another year or so. And a lot of the furniture is going to have to be replaced, sadly. But it was a really interesting lesson in what worked and what didn't and how to think about this. And of course, to your point, about people rebuilding. So there are already all these conversations going on about what are going to be some of the limitations when we think about rebuilding. So to your point, all those houses that burned down were mostly wood. And so people have to think very differently about materials and what the landscape looks like and how much clearance you leave around your home, which is, which is so different because so many people talk about, well, my client likes to live with nature. Well, nature's going to have to be about 100ft away from your house going forward.
- [21:42]
Fred Nicholaus
Right. There's lots of trade offs. And it's even, you know, like people talk about using concrete instead of wood, but, you know, cement homes are not as earthquake friendly as wood homes. So there's, there's all these trade offs. It's very complicated. One last little piece I just want to end on is that, you know, Hayley makes a really good point in her piece that, you know, a lot of these decisions are really like, you know, specified by architects and contractors. These are structural decisions that are made more by the builders than the designers. But I think designers really do have a very important role to play because often they are the people who are really the client trusts the most throughout the process and can offer the benefit of having seen various builders succeed or not succeed in protecting a home against a hurricane, for example. So I really think designer's role as a very trusted partner in the process is very important. And even if ultimately you're not specifying exactly the exact building materials that are used in a project, I think it's really important for designers to be involved and to use, you know, the trust that they have with clients towards steering them in the right direction. So everybody's a part of the conversation, I guess, is what I'm saying.
- [22:46]
Dennis Scully
Absolutely. All right, moving on. We're going to talk about Wayfair's new verified feature. This week, the e commerce giant announced that it would begin assessing furniture on its site for quality, durability, and value. Each piece that passes its standards will be verified with a purple check on the platform. They're finally going to get to see some of the furniture they sell. Fred, this is groundbreaking. This is exciting.
- [23:11]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. I don't know. I think there were some unintentionally funny moments. There was a Fast Company story that sort of profiled this, and they were like, when we opened a store, we actually started seeing this stuff and we realized some of it's not very good. I don't know. This is really interesting just because, of course, Wayfair has been in business for two decades and change at this point. And it's funny that only now they're having this sticker or this little demarcator of quality of some kind. And in recent years, they've really pivoted towards sourcing directly from fashion factories. You know, Wayfair was built on working with importers, people who brought in furniture from overseas, but did a lot of the warehousing and, you know, did a lot of quality control here in the US and then sold it to retail stores and of course, sold it to Wayfair. But in recent years, because the margins are just better on factory direct product and technology has made it so much easier. A lot more of Wayfair's selection is direct from factories. But the problem is those factories don't have quality control necessarily built into their cost structure, or at least some of them don't. And that leads to more complaints. And I think it necessitates them having some kind of verified sticker, some basically them taking quality control in house. I don't know, I mean, maybe that's an overly cynical read. Maybe this is a good thing. I mean, I'm sure it is a good thing for consumers, but I think part of this is the way that Wayfair supplier base has been shifting is driving this change. But what'd you make of it, Dennis?
- [24:30]
Dennis Scully
So I very much agree with what you were saying and I also think it's, it's fascinating just how, how huge the inventory that Wayfair brings in. I mean, I think they estimated that it was something around 30 million SKUs that they bring in. So of course they're not seeing each piece. And unlike so many companies, unlike William Sonoma and other companies that actually develop a lot of their product and bring in prototypes and then see the final piece, they are just bringing in all these pieces from all over the world and often waiting for consumer reviews to tell them how good or bad a product is. Right. I mean, that's a lot of what's been driving it. And also the fact that they opened a retail location is, I think, making them probably feel much more. More self conscious maybe, or just wanting to be much more aware of what they're actually putting out on the floor and how people think about it. But I also wonder if this is a way, since it sounds like only a small fraction initially of the pieces that they bring in, about 50,000 pieces. I think they said that they were going to actually get these verified labels on. It may be a way for them to start to vastly reduce what they bring in. If they can start to lean into some of the verified product and feel a little bit more responsible and a little bit more connected to some of that inventory. I wonder if in a year or two we see a much smaller SKU count because of this.
- [26:02]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, so many interesting sort of components of this. Like your point about them having physical stores is, you know, they talked about that being the catalyst for having this program and it's just so funny. It's like, like wayfair comes along 20 we're going to disrupt the furniture industry. Going to get rid of stores and sell direct and now 20 years later they're opening stores and doing quality control. It's like it's the story of every disruptive brand is they come in with a ton of money, they disrupt the industry, then they recreate what was there before. But yeah, I mean, like, to be fair, you know, if you tons of people shop on Amazon, I shop on Amazon. You know, Amazon isn't necessarily looking at every product individually. I think this is kind of the way that E Commerce works. And, you know, it's an imperfect system, but it's not totally crazy not to look at every little item that's coming through E Commerce Store. I actually really wonder about all the cans of worms that this opens up because what does verified really mean? It means that a couple of people at Wayfair HQ sort of looked at it and sat on it, banged it with a hammer. But you know, I actually on some level think customer reviews are. I don't know, maybe they have their own problems because they're gamified, but it's very difficult when you as a company start to say that this thing is verified, like, what does that really mean? How does that impact consumer behavior? Does that piss some vendors off that they can't be verified? How can you really like accurately assess 50,000 pieces really quickly? I'm very curious to check on this. In a year, as you mentioned, does this become their entire selection? Do people complain about the verification? Do some vendors revolt? I don't think it's a bad idea for Wayfair to do, but I do think it's complicated and I'm really interested to see how it rolls out well.
- [27:29]
Dennis Scully
And also, so I think many people see Wayfair as a low cost option to a lot of these pieces. And so are people adequately lowering their expectation for the quality level of some of these pieces and willing to accept that as a trade off? I get it. It might not be the best chair in the world. I'm getting it for $299 and I'm getting it next week. And so, you know, I always wonder with that kind of model if that's not built into people's expectations. A lot to watch here. It's an interesting story. And again, 30 million different SKUs is just an awful lot. So we'll see if that number stays as high as that in the future. We will be all over this story. In the meantime, Fred, we've got to talk about Butter Yellow for Vogue.
- [28:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Last week, Elise Taylor wrote about the rising dominance of a shade called butter yellow, which began on the runways last year and is now gaining momentum in the homeworld. Now, Dennis, I know you have a lot of interesting insights about this. So you were dying to talk about this on the show. So let's. That's.
- [28:32]
Dennis Scully
Fred thinks I pushed for this story. And I just want to say if you knew what my other choice was, you'd have been with me on talking about butter yellow. But that being said, may I say, Fred, that once again, these Colors just seem to have the best PR people working for them.
- [28:52]
Fred Nicholaus
Right.
- [28:53]
Dennis Scully
I mean, you go to look up butter yellow, it turns out KitchenAid is named butter yellow the color of the year. Timothee Chalamet is wearing it to the Oscars, and. And Timothy Corrigan is saying, yes, absolutely. I work this into my chateaus and my London projects. And even Heidi Callier apparently was giving butter yellow a shout out. What more do you need for brand.
- [29:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Representation if you've got Timothee Chalamet and Timothy Corrigan on your side, Those are the two most important Timothy's in terms of getting a color started. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm always, like, a little bit skeptical about these stories just because I think you could plausibly say, well, red is the color of the year, and find a bunch of red things in the marketplace. But I'm not going to indulge that trend conspiracy theory too deeply. I do think people are actually buying this stuff. And I was actually dming with a guy who runs a betting company, I won't say which one. And he was talking about how they kind of saw this coming and it's doing well. And I think that that's kind of the right way to think about these color trends, is that it's not going to cause someone to throw away their sofa and start over from scratch, but with stuff like textiles and, you know, pieces that are a little bit more disposable, a little bit more, you know, seasonal, I do think you see these colors impacting sales. And so, you know, hey, butter yellow. I'm here for it.
- [30:10]
Kyle Chayka
Get some butter yellow sheets.
- [30:12]
Dennis Scully
I love that idea. Right. Right. After we're done here, I'm gonna go order some. Absolutely. You know what's interesting about butter yellow, I mean, all joking aside, what's interesting is that it is such a highly recognizable historical color. I mean, whether you're the Nancy Lancaster yellow room. And it was interesting. David Netto in the latest issue of El Decor, even mentioned when talking about Vere Greny's fabulous space, he brought in the Colfax and Fowler butter yellow.
- [30:40]
Kyle Chayka
And you do see it as an.
- [30:42]
Dennis Scully
Exterior paint color on so many homes. And I thought it was interesting. Speaking about Timothy Corrigan, he actually did a talk with me at Nicet recently, and he was talking about part of the reason that he's been using butter yellow is because it is such a happy color. And he's realizing that a lot of his clients are less happy than they might have been a few years ago. Lots of pressures Lots of tensions for all these clients of his, and butter yellow is helping to soothe their souls and make them feel a little bit happier. So he does actually think there's a big psychological tie in with the color, which I think is also welcome.
- [31:20]
Fred Nicholaus
Too much sad beige. The butter yellow. Doc, spread some butter yellow on that sad beige, and you got yourself a nice thing. Yeah, I mean, and you didn't even mention Mario Botta, who is famous for, you know, buddyella, as he liked to like to say.
- [31:34]
Dennis Scully
Exactly.
- [31:34]
Fred Nicholaus
I do think it's kind of a cool color to be in because it's a little more, it's high risk, high reward. I mean, I sort of feel like beige. You can just make an entire room beige, and it kind of goes together and you can, you know, layer in a couple colors and it looks okay. But, but yellow is a, is a difficult color. I mean, I know you say, like, there's lots of exterior paints, but, like, you know, yellow in an interior can, can go wrong. It can, can spiral out of control. And I do think that, like, pulling color balances with butter yellow is difficult. So I welcome a buzzy color that, like, really, you know, utilizes an interior designer's full skill set. Because I do think it's, it's been too easy for influencers and dilettantes to take advantage of sad beige. Now we need a trickier color to be the it color.
- [32:18]
Dennis Scully
Well, you know, great point. And, and let's see how people step up to this challenge that you've just thrown down there. Fred. Let's, let's see how they work butter yellow into rooms in ways that work and that are flattering to the complexion, because that's so important as well. So I, I, I look.
- [32:34]
Fred Nicholaus
The ultimate challenge is making my complexion look good against yellow. If you can pull that off, you got yourself ahead.
- [32:41]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including April's can't miss design events and why Ohio's Attorney General is suing Burke Decor. We'll be back in a minute. But first, first, a quick break.
- [33:01]
Kyle Chayka
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Jaipur Living. Jaipur Living's curated collection of geometric rugs brings the art of angles and timeless craftsmanship into the home. Inspired by the patterns of faraway places, from Moroccan tiles to Bauhaus lines, these artisan made rugs tell a story of style, movement, and a life well traveled. Let a handcrafted geometric rug transform your space Explore the collection@jaiporliving.com or followporliving on Instagram. And now back to the show.
- [33:45]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. I'm joined now by Kyle Chayka, staff writer at the New Yorker and author of Filter How Algorithms Flattened Culture. Kyle, so good to speak with you at last, sir.
- [33:59]
Haley Chouinard
Thank you for having me.
- [34:00]
Dennis Scully
Let's bring people up to speed with some of your work and talk about this essay that I want to say you wrote almost 10 years ago.
- [34:09]
Haley Chouinard
2016. Yeah.
- [34:11]
Dennis Scully
Oh, my God. Right? So you have been chasing this whole notion for. For a long time. So you wrote about airspace and how you noticed coffee shops and Airbnb spaces looking remarkably similar even as you traveled the world. So tell me a little bit about it.
- [34:31]
Haley Chouinard
Circa 2015, 2016, I was working as a freelance journalist, and I was traveling a lot for reporting, and I was a freelancer, and I always wanted to find a coffee shop to work in. And I just discovered that no matter where I was, whether it was Berlin or Los Angeles, Los Or Kyoto or Beijing, these cafes kind of looked the same. Subway tiles on the walls and reclaimed wood furniture and ceramic mugs with latte art in your cappuccino. And they would serve avocado toast, and there would be hanging pendant lamps. And I was just struck by the fact that these were all so similar to each other, even though there was no force making them that way. There wasn't a corporate parent company. It wasn't like a set of standards that existed somewhere, but instead, it was just this unity of style that existed independently, it seemed. And so I wrote this essay to kind of figure out why that was happening. And my theory in 2016 was that this was because digital platforms had become globalized. Like, what was connecting all of these baristas and coffee shop owners and decorators was now Instagram and social media. And that had kind of never happened before. It was like a new state of distribution of culture. And so it was this total aesthetic environment that had been homogenized and that extended also to these Airbnbs, which were another kind of physical space that had been brought onto the Internet. Like Airbnb created a marketplace and an ecosystem of physical spaces that were also online and were also presented as goods to consume online. So I think the homogenization happened through the digital platform, and that started mid 2010s, maybe.
- [36:21]
Dennis Scully
So fast forward. So almost 10 years later comes Filter World. And obviously, you've been looking at this and thinking about it for a long time. Tell us what's changed, if anything and what you wanted to write about years later.
- [36:39]
Haley Chouinard
Yeah, I think I expected that style to change. I expected fashions to shift, but I think they didn't as much, in part because digital platforms have become only more entrenched in the past decade. Like if in 2015, 2016, we were just starting to get on these multimedia cultural platforms like Instagram. Now in 2025, we're like beyond the pale. These digital platforms and feeds have infiltrated almost every aspect of our cultural production and consumption. So it's not just like what cafe you're going to, but it's what food you're ordering, what you watch on Netflix, what music clips you hear on TikTok, even what products you get recommended on Amazon. So I think that theory that I had, that there was something about the feed and the digital platform that homogenized things was proven out. And so I wanted to write Filter World as a kind of expansion of that idea and as a way to wrap my arms around it and to kind of write a history of the 2000 and tens in online cultural distribution.
- [37:50]
Dennis Scully
Well, and then you talk about how so the algorithms and how everything changed from what was once these chronological posts. And then suddenly that started to get boring or right. Wasn't exciting enough. And suddenly let's bring in the algorithms and, and explain a little bit of the history of algorithms and what the thinking was behind them.
- [38:14]
Haley Chouinard
Algorithms are these equations that figure out which kind of content appeals to us, then delivers more of it. But social media didn't have those algorithmic recommendations early. Facebook was just the chronological list of posts, as you said. Instagram, if we cast our minds back, used to just be a feed of still images in order of which they were posted, which was great. But then social media became more and more algorithmic. My hypothesis is that it was because there was simply so much content online, like so many more people were suddenly posting more and more of their thoughts and their lives, that it was not enough anymore to just see what was posted when you were online. Like, there needed to be some kind of filter or recommendation system in order to just give you, show you the stuff that you would want to see so you don't miss it, because it was posted two hours ago. A consequence of these algorithmic platforms is that you see what succeeds really easily. It's a very iterative process. People are throwing millions of pieces of spaghetti against the wall every day, and you see what sticks and you see what gets popular. And you kind of adjust what you're doing sometimes to fit into that mold of success. And I think in the pandemic, like circa 2020, when TikTok really blew up in the US you saw a whole new generation essentially of social media stars succeed by riding that algorithmic wave. Because TikTok also represented the most algorithmic platform yet. It didn't matter who you chose to follow, it didn't matter your preferences, almost. It was all about what the algorithm thought you were going to watch and.
- [39:58]
Dennis Scully
Like, well, and, and what did you learn about what made that TikTok algorithm so powerful and how it so quickly overtook these other platforms? And, and they all had to. And Instagram made so many dramatic changes, right, to, to try and, and copy and, and catch up.
- [40:17]
Haley Chouinard
Well, it is. I mean, it makes me think of how platforms themselves have homogenized, right? Like now they all act like each other and there's just kind of like one form of social media. I mean, TikTok did have the best recommendation algorithm, I think. Jonah Peretti, the founder of Buzzfeed, recently talked about how when he first saw TikTok and talked to that company, he just said that they were using machine learning and early AI tech the most in their algorithm. So it was literally better technology, more advanced. But I think there was also a way in which it just like the great epiphany of TikTok, is that the user doesn't care about expressing themselves. They don't care that they're not following the accounts, they don't care that it's like that. They don't have to put in the work or think about what's in their feed. We just react subconsciously to the TikTok feed. So I think once the designers realize that you could just do away with following and think for the user instead of allowing them to think for themselves, that is what allowed it to succeed so quickly. I think every digital platform and every algorithmic feed kind of generates its own generic style of whatever. There's a generic style of music, of decoration, of painting, and that's what succeeds in the algorithmic feed. But then when the platform changes, you also have to change what you're doing in order to fit into that generic style. So when Instagram went from still images to videos, oh, all of a sudden, if you want to succeed on Instagram, you have to start making good videos. And that's a totally different cultural output than a nice photo. It's like we went from print magazines to tv. All of a sudden there's a different way that you have to be an artist, be a creator, like be a voice and not everyone fits into that. Not everyone wants to put their face and voice in a video. They might be better or more fluent in a still image.
- [42:22]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. And particularly in the interior design world, that is this moment that so many are facing. They are happy to post some beautiful image to your point of a project and say, look at this. Just finished this beautiful project in Rhode island and wait till you see it. But now that doesn't get nearly the traction. In fact, it gets very little response for the most part, if you're not also showing us some crazy video of you doing the installation while also doing a dance, while also finding the perfect musical track to put to that. I mean, all of it.
- [43:02]
Haley Chouinard
Yeah, yeah. I think it shows how the need to produce content then forces you to work in specific ways that shape the product itself. Usually, or before, you'd have the project, which is the design, and then you have the kind of ancillary content which might be the photo shoot, the spread in a magazine, but now I think you almost put the production of content first before the thing itself. And so you're thinking about, okay, how do I make the best content possible out of this project? Rather than in this case, thinking about, how do I make the best design possible? Yeah, I think algorithmic recommendations have become the new curators and the new gatekeepers, in a way. And so before we did have these human gatekeepers, we had editors and curators and record label executives, and those people were able to kind of exert their taste and point to something and say, okay, this is truly worth showing. Like, I'm going to invest in the photo shoot and, and publish the essay and all of that. And now I think what dictates what gets exposure is just data and traffic and engagement. TikTok works in this way where it'll show a new video to a hundred people at first and test that audience out, and if they really like it, they'll show it to a thousand people and then 10,000 and more and more. So it's this iterative testing process of culture, which is the exact opposite of one person saying, okay, this is worth looking at. You know, I'm a big fan of shelter publications and like, interior design content and stuff. And my Instagram has just been utterly taken over by increasingly generic mid century modern slash Mexico City, slash, you know, vaguely Italian mid century whatever. Like, it's. It's just this mash of influences and aesthetics. And now I find it so familiar that it's incredibly boring. Like, you see the success of Millennial Gray and Beige and Then you chase that and you reproduce it, and that's how the flattening happens. You copy the style that's succeeding, and then more and more people copy it. It becomes more and more mainstream. And that kind of homogenization always happens. People would copy the dress pattern that was in Vogue magazine, but I think this is just so much more dominant and so much more restrictive. And yeah, I think the really capricious aspect of it is that, okay, we've gone through this era of millennial gray and beige and stuff, and now we're like, oh, cool, Gen Z loves maximalism. We're back to bohemian carpets and wall hangings and funky ceramics, and yet that style will become just as dominant and generic as the Millennial Grand Beige. So it's like, think the real question is, how do you escape that cycle of just looking at what is popular or memetic at a certain point in time and try to chart some different path?
- [46:11]
Dennis Scully
Well, and you talk about trying to break free of that, and you actually stepped away from the platforms for a little bit of an algorithmic cleanse. Right. Work required you to go back, sadly. But. But right, but talk about that a little bit, because we can break free. It's not easy.
- [46:35]
Haley Chouinard
We definitely can. I mean, as my job as a New Yorker columnist about the Internet kind of forbids me from escaping for too long. But for the book, as I was finishing writing it, I did do this three month algorithm cleanse where I just got off all these platforms and tried to look for other ways of consuming culture that were not driven by algorithmic feeds. And I did find that it really changed my relationship to what I was consuming. I mean, I was being less passive about my consumption. I was really choosing more actively what I was looking for and researching. And so in the absence of Instagram, you're looking in art books, you're going to more museums or something just because you want to feed that that part of your brain and get inspiration. And I think there's more serendipity and quality in going to a random museum gallery than there is in scrolling your Instagram feed. Because what's in that feed is just what's getting rewarded with likes and what's getting promoted. I enjoyed that process. And I've also tried to practice this thing at art museums of just not. Not thinking about the labels. You know, don't think about the creator of something, don't think about who it is or why it's there. Just like, try to experience the thing for itself and less for its context. And Its like fame in a way.
- [48:05]
Dennis Scully
And understand if you actually really like it.
- [48:07]
Haley Chouinard
Exactly right. Exactly.
- [48:08]
Dennis Scully
Without the label, without knowing the famous artist that created it.
- [48:12]
Haley Chouinard
Yes. Yeah. You want to rely on your own taste and your actual feeling. Like, this is what I'm thinking so much about now is like. Like, I think social media and this mediation of the Internet creates a barrier between you and your own feelings of the art. Like, whether it's visual art or music or whatever, it's this metadata. It's not about the thing itself. And I hope that by getting outside of the feeds and thinking about the ways we consume culture more, you can get back to just experiencing the thing and thinking about how it makes you feel, rather than thinking about, how many likes has this gotten? Is this viral? Who else cares about it?
- [48:57]
Dennis Scully
It's so interesting to me because in the design world, so often you'll interview a designer and you'll ask some trend question, and great designers will say, trends? I don't pay any attention to trends. Everything I want is timeless. It's going to. But at the same time, you go to market and all the furniture is covered in ivory boucle. Right. And everything has been completely neutralized. And the most successful furniture store in the nation is RH that has absolutely leaned into the beige ification of America. And yay. Though they say they've got color coming soon, it's been years that they've been talking about it. It doesn't seem to be showing up. So I don't know if they're afraid to step away from the algorithms there. Right. Because, I mean, they're pretty invested.
- [49:50]
Haley Chouinard
I mean, they captured the zeitgeist and in a lot of ways, and they profited from it greatly. And I love the boucle example because it's just so dominant. And the other paradox of this stuff is that it works. I find that incredibly appealing. I'm always in the back of my mind somewhere. I'm like, do I need a boucle armchair? Wouldn't that be cool? But it is like, you have to not chase trends too much and in a way realize that this idea of timelessness or enduring quality or whatever is also an ephemeral artifact. Like, what we think of as timeless is always changing, except, I suppose, for, you know, the kind of Bauhaus standard. And then if you're going back to that, it's kind of like, well, can we never do anything timeless again? Like, is the new. Is the new just bankrupt? And we will never have a good new idea? And I can't Think that's true? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is very abstract, but I think there is this continuously updating, generic dominant thing that it always exists and always will exist. And the more you can get away from that, the more you can find your own reference points. Dive into the obscure rather than the well known. That's how things become more interesting. I think. Art history does this well and art galleries do it well. They're always digging up obscure voices from the past, like the woman painter from 1933 who has been totally overlooked. And that's how you, I think, update the canon and add new material even to your sense of the past. And I think that can point a way forward. You can never escape the popularity trap. Something cool will always go viral and become generic and get reproduced in fakes and everything. But if you're digging for new stuff, if you're trying to find the thing that no one else has found before, that is very rewarding, I think.
- [51:48]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I couldn't tell if micro trends, and you touch on these a little bit in the book, if that was an attempt to capture a moment in time and hold up something that seemed different, but of course is usually some homage to something from the past. Right. So it's. Yeah, it's not different at all.
- [52:07]
Haley Chouinard
So the micro trends, I mean, I think algorithmic feeds have accelerated trend cycles and there is even more of a need to know what's popular not just this year or this season, but this week, like this day, simply because things cycle so much. Because the algorithmic feed gets bored very quickly. Like when something goes from obscurity to. To universality, to overexposure, then you want to chase the next thing. And so micro trends kind of solve that problem by always supplying the new thing to look at. So in a way, it's like recreating archetypes and cliches that have already existed. Like coastal grandmother aesthetic on TikTok, like that's Wasp y Cape Cod. Stuff like that is very familiar and recognizable. It's just rebranded, branded for a Gen Z video audience. My gut instinct, honestly, at this point is that we may have passed peak social media. And I think there was this expectation in the 2010s that it was a good and constructive thing, that everyone was posting lots of aspects of their lives all the time, their lives and their careers. They were. We were all becoming public Personas on this new social Internet. And I think we realized that didn't really turn out that well. Most people, we don't really care that much about what they're wearing every day, or their random thoughts about a TV show or whatever. Like that kind of lower tier social communication now happens in text threads and like more private spaces with your actual friends. And now social media is more and more professionalized to the point where we are passively watching broadcasts from basically professionals, like a YouTuber is a professional solo TV maker. And so we're sorting ourselves into the people who are not social media professionals and the people who are social media professionals. And the latter category will increasingly become basically TV anchors and protagonists. And the rest of us, if we're not posting videos of ourselves, are probably just in our text threads and posting our little Instagrams, not for hope of profit or fame, but just to chat about stuff. And I think now the unit of production of the Internet, or the cultural Internet is barely even the content. It's the personality of the human behind it. So what we're connecting to is not just a fancy image or a well produced video, but the Persona of the designer, of the actor, of the writer, like the character they play, the way they turn their lives into this ongoing TV show that we want to follow. And so I think the people who are succeeding the most now are leaning the hardest into that parasocial existence. And that's a real dilemma. Like, are you an interior designer or are you a reality TV show star? Those are different things. And I think it can and should be possible to operate your business, to be an artist, to be a creative, without being that parasocial celebrity, without having.
- [55:29]
Dennis Scully
To be a reality.
- [55:30]
Haley Chouinard
I think so. I mean, I think it's still possible just developing one to one relationships and figuring out a sustainable business that works for you. There's still an appetite for music and design and paintings and whatever without the parasociality, without the broadcasting of your character and shaping yourself into a narrative. But for sure, the quickest way to succeed, the fastest way to fame and profit, is to turn yourself into that character and lean into the algorithm as hard as you possibly can. And you might make it, or you might make it for a few years, and then the feed passes you by and you're kind of left bereft without the attention that once drove your career. So it's a tough pill to swallow or something.
- [56:19]
Dennis Scully
And where does AI come into all of this and really start to mess with us?
- [56:24]
Haley Chouinard
For one, AI is a continuation of the dynamics of algorithmic recommendations. So if algorithmic recommendations encouraged people to produce generic stuff, encouraged us all to follow each other, AI just spits out the generic thing immediately because it operates from a literal digestion of cultural averages. Literally what runs the AI is a bunch of averages of every photo, every song, every image that has ever been made. So AI is just continuing the dynamics we've been experiencing. So the pendulum swinging away from all of that is the very human is the one to one. And to me you can see that already in the cultural obsession over concerts and over restaurants, which are like in person, irreproducible experiences that either you're there or you're not. Like, you might follow a restaurant on Instagram and be like, okay, this food is cool, but the fulfillment of that relationship is going to the restaurant and being in the room and literally ingesting the food into your body. Which is not a thing that can happen online. And I think in media too, we see this turn toward events and meetings and one to one relationships. And I think if we start with those building blocks now, then maybe in a few years, maybe in a decade even, we'll have slowly reconstructed like good, sustainable, positive cultural institutions. That's what I hope. At least that's my positive vision for the future.
- [58:09]
Dennis Scully
Well, this has been such a great conversation and I so appreciate you making the time. The title of the book again is Filter How Algorithms Flattened Culture. Kyle, thank you so much.
- [58:19]
Haley Chouinard
Thanks. This was really fun.
- [58:26]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything, anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [58:34]
Fred Nicholaus
Celine Volandes caught my eye this week. You know, we've been talking for the past few months about who is going to take over as editor in chief of Elle Decor. And a couple weeks ago we sort of Hearst put this announcement out very quietly, just saying that Celine Volandis role was expanding at the magazine. Now of course, she's Town and Country's editor in chief and she had editorial leadership, you know, over Elle Decor. But you know, this announcement sort of made it more clear that she's really taking, you know, more of a hand in shaping the magazine. There is going to be, you know, a to be announced editorial head or head of editorial at Elle Decor, but I suspect they won't have like a, you know, a full on editor in chief and that person will functionally be Celine at the magazine going forward. So I'm excited to see what that looks like. I'm hopeful that she'll come on the show and tell us about what the next chapter of Elle Decor looks like. But congrats to Stelline, who's a great editor. And I think we, we mostly have an answer to our mystery of who's the next editor in chief of Eldacor. What'd you think of that, Dennis?
- [59:28]
Dennis Scully
I think you're seeing already Steline's hand in some changes. You can see some of the people that she's bringing on to write for the magazine and you definitely Armani on the COVID Well, I mean, exactly. And I think this most recent issue actually, which I wanted to refer to because it's the designers at home issue, which is always a favorite of mine and one of the people that's, that's featured in it and he actually writes the piece, is a recent podcast guest and an episode that a lot of people wrote to me about the fabulous Ben Pentreath who moved to Orkney in Scotland. A pretty bold, pretty bold move. And a house that he decided to, to just live in for a while, honestly, before he wanted to make a lot of big design decisions about which is, which was interesting to hear, hear him talk about and, and write about. So that's a fun one. Also in this, in this issue, another thing that I wanted to talk about was at long last the reopening of the Frick. Ingrid Abramovich writes about the fact that you're actually going to get to see Henry Clay Frick's private residence for the very first time now that the museum has reopened and it is really one of the great museums in New York City. And Annabelle's solder has been working on it for years and it's very exciting that it has reopened. It's, it's a really inspiring space and it's another thing that I'm getting to this weekend that I'm very much looking forward to. Finally. The other thing that I wanted to just notice was that William Sonoma, a company that we talk about a lot on the show, has, has hit the big time and has now included in the SM MP500, which means that for most of us, we'll now be owning a little piece of Williams Sonoma in our retirement plans. So we, we want them to do especially well because of that.
- [61:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. I already carry them in my heart and now I carry them in my. Carry them in my low cost index fund. So. Good to know.
- [61:21]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastbusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.