← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: How Dan Rosen became TikTok's favorite design critic. Plus: Who will take the helm at Elle Decor?
01:02:21
BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus and host Dennis Scully discuss the biggest news in the industry. Later, comedian Dan Rosen joins the show to talk about his accidental career as a design critic.
Loading summary
Transcript120 lines
- [00:08]
A
This is Business of home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to comedian Dan Rosen about his accidental career as an online design critic. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including more Charles Cohen drama, changes at the top for several shelter publications and a look at Kravitz latest tech experiment. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicklaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:36]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:38]
A
Well, it's a loaded question on a.
- [00:41]
B
Day like today, Fred, but we're recording this on Wednesday. And on the heels of what is potentially the most consequential election of our lifetime, I have to ask, Dennis, how was the ticking tent? Did you get any cute prints there.
- [00:56]
A
Or good pivot there? Yes, the ticking tent. That's right. It was a pleasure. It was a great success. Congrats to our friends Christina Juarez and Benjamin Reynard for their very successful event. And yes, there was a lot of good stuff to be had. I have a beautiful new watercolor in my collection, so I'm pretty excited about that.
- [01:18]
B
In any political climate, we need stuff like that. And in all seriousness, again, we're recording this on Wednesday, I think we will talk about the potential impact of second Trump term for the design industry. I'm sure there'll be some tariff chat in the near future, but I think for now we're just going to let it sink in and keep this a relative politics free zone. On that note, let's look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with Martin Gliese of Roche Babois interesting journey into the history of a brand I've known for a long time but never thought about that deeply.
- [01:49]
A
I feel the same way. Known it for a long time. I thought I knew it better. But there was so much it turns out that I didn't know, including the fact that they don't make any of their own furniture. They don't even have an on staff design team per se. It's all outsourced. It's brilliant.
- [02:07]
B
It's just one guy in a room.
- [02:10]
A
They just spend their time building brands and opening showrooms. It's a really interesting model and it was an interesting discussion about how he approaches this market in a very different way than most of the people that we talk to.
- [02:26]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. It's like Roche Baubois, kind of like Ligny and a lot of these European companies. It's a name that you're familiar with. I know the brand I know the product, but when you really open up the hood and see what's going on under there, it's very surprising how different these companies are when you really get to know them. A lot of interesting gems in there. Like many European brands, their strategy is much more to go after consumers rather than designers, which I think is interesting. There's also a lot of interesting stuff about China and how complicated it is to do business there, but how lucrative it can be. A really good one. To get a deep look at a brand that I think probably most people are familiar with but haven't taken a super close look at, it's good to put it under the microscope and give it a Scully grilling, give it a real Scully deep dive.
- [03:07]
A
Yes. We got into some RH comparisons, of course, and that was interesting as well. And when I asked him about restaurants in his future, you know, he didn't say no. He didn't say no to Roche Beauvoir restaurants. So that was interesting as well. So stay tuned. It sounded maybe more hotels might be in the future, but I wouldn't mind staying at a lovely Roche Babois hotel.
- [03:29]
B
I need a Roche Pabois Broque Monsieur.
- [03:34]
A
I think they could do very well with some fine French dining at the locations. And again, sounded like it wasn't off the table. So we'll see what happens there. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Anthem Plus Showering Only from Kohler Anthem plus invites you to transport your body and mind with every shower. It combines water, steam, light and sound in a fully immersive sensory experience with custom settings to match any mood and enhance any routine. Discover how you can personalize your escape with Anthem smart showering@kohler.com showers. This podcast is also sponsored by Claffs, the world leader in sauna luxury at home. Wellness rooms are on the rise, and Claphs designs saunas for the discerning eye. With nearly a century of storied craftsmanship and innovation, Clafs has perfected the art of sauna. The result? Distinct and elegant designs that harness the transformative powers of heat. There are saunas and then there are CLAFFS saunas. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit klaffsusa.com that's KLAFS USA. And we're back. First up, Fred. The Charles Cohen drama continues.
- [05:18]
B
It never stops. After months of legal back and forth between billionaire landlord Charles Cohen and his lender Fortress Investment Group. Several Cohen owned assets are scheduled to be sold at a foreclosure auction this Friday, including the Design center of the Americas. Some billionaires are having good weeks, others are not. This has been a story in the news for a long time. We seem to have reached a pivotal date. What do you think, Dennis?
- [05:43]
A
It always comes right up to the edge, and still we don't believe this is really going to happen. But you wrote a great piece recapping all of this and setting us up. So let's remind people of some of the details and who Charles Cohen is and what we're talking about.
- [06:00]
B
Sure. So, yeah, Charles Cohen, as I mentioned, is a billionaire landlord. He's, as I said in the piece, the scion of a Manhattan real estate family. But he greatly expanded the company's portfolio and his. His time running it. And he is, I think, one of the design industry's biggest landlords, if not the biggest. He owns the Design center of the Americas in Florida. He owns the D and D building here in New York. He owns the Houston Design center and the Pacific Design center in la. So the drama has stemmed from the fact that a couple years ago in 2022, Cohen borrowed $544 million from a company called Fortress and put up a lot of properties, including the Dakota, as collateral. Now, I think he stopped making payments or they fell behind in payments in Fortress, didn't like that too much, and quickly moved to foreclose on the collateral. And so there's been this big legal battle. Cohen claims that he was trying to renegotiate payments in good faith. Fortress is having none of it. And now we are at a moment in which Fortress appears to be auctioning off their. Their collateral, which. Which includes the Dakota. We just. The weird thing is a lot of people are acting like this actually isn't going to happen. So I feel a little confused about it.
- [07:08]
A
Well, exactly. Because so many people don't believe in the end that something terrible can possibly happened to Charles Cohen, that he's so smart or savvy or slippery, however you want to describe him, and that he will somehow get out of this. He will somehow come up with the money at the 11th hour and all will be made right. But this feels the closest we've ever come to a real auction happening or this level of drama, wouldn't you say?
- [07:37]
B
Yeah, completely. And it's so interesting because I talked to several tenants in the Dakota and they said there hasn't been a lot of communication from the Cohen's company about this. Many of them are just thinking he's going to pull $500 million out of the couch cushions at the last minute. He's a billionaire. He might have it in some form. But at the same time, I just spoke to the person who's running the auction, or I emailed with them rather, and they gave me the zoom credentials to log in in a couple days. I guess we should also talk about the fact that Fortress is claiming he's moving money around in a somewhat suspicious way. That was another weird little salacious detail of this case. What'd you make of that?
- [08:13]
A
Well, exactly, and that's actually what makes me think he does think this is happening. Because you did see, and again, all sort of ways that people move money around. Putting the house in Greenwich in the wife's name and transferring some of the apparently many yachts that Mr. Cohen had and moving them into some other people's hands. So a lot of preparations that just look like he could be preparing himself for the fact that even if they have this auction, selling off the Dakota might not settle the amount of the loan and that there might be other assets that in the future Fortress wants to come after.
- [08:55]
B
Yeah, I mean, these, you know, again, we should say alleged, you know, movements of money around do appear to be him shielding his personal assets. He's. Another kind of weird twist of this case is that he personally guaranteed $187 million worth of the debt, meaning that Fortress can come after him for stuff like yachts and Connecticut homes. This auction doesn't satisfy the principle which most people think it will not. I guess moving on to, let's say the auction does. If it doesn't pass, then everything we're talking about is up for grabs. And we apologize for putting this in your ears, but if it does happen, that means the Dakota is going to be sold. And it's a little bit unclear whether there will be an actual buyer who comes in and takes it over or whether Fortress will end up owning it. Because nobody bids enough to over get over what's called a credit bid. Like the money they're owed goes towards a bid on the property. It's totally possible that Dakota will end up in the hands of this big investment group called Fortress. And then it's a question of, well, do they want to keep running it or does anyone want to keep running it as a design center? Because as we found out, it's a money losing design center. So I think for all the tenants in there, there's probably a lot of uncertainty around what the maybe medium term.
- [10:03]
A
Future Holds, as you say, we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Let's see what happens. Let's see if this auction comes to pass. But we will be watching it and apparently, Fred, you might be bidding on it.
- [10:13]
B
It sound I've been told I'm going to be an observer only, but I will be watching.
- [10:19]
A
Good to know. We'll check back in next week. In the meantime, let's talk about Wayfair. The online furniture retailer reported its third quarter earnings last week, revealing a 2% drop in revenue from the same period last year. Elsewhere, the company is continuing to look for new ways of generating income, including the rollout of a paid membership program. It seemed, Fred, to me, in looking at all of this, that really they are are trying to do everything they can to invest while also trying to reduce those losses.
- [10:52]
B
Right. This is definitely a more with less period for Wayfair. I mean, the numbers are not totally remarkable. Their Net revenue is down 2%. Their net losses were 74 million, which is a little bit better than last year. These are all just the result of the very slow recovery, if you want to call it that, of the market for the level of furniture that Wayfair sells. I mean, calling it a recovery is being optimistic. It's the stagnation is really what they're in right now. But at the same time they're cutting costs, which I think is probably what most people agree that they should be doing and they're trying to do new things with the money that they've got. This was a little bit of, I don't know, it did not appear to be a monumental quarter for Wayfair. It was a little bit of a let's just keep going until things get better type quarter. What do you think?
- [11:42]
A
This was a reminder that Wayfair is in a really tough space. We've talked before about many of the hype point companies that are, that are selling at a lower price tier than the higher end that we're used to writing about and talking about. Wayfair is selling to a very price sensitive customer. And that was a lot of the message in both where their, where their numbers are, where their focus is. Also Wayfair and we were talking earlier about Roche Babois and how brand focused they are. Wayfair is very much trying to build a brand and unlike a lot of companies that we talk to, they're doing television advertising and they've got celebrity influencers and they've created the weighborhood and they're trying to get that to catch on with people. Good luck with that, I say. But they really are investing heavily in trying to build brand awareness. The other thing that I wanted to talk about related to the election that's just taken place, we talked a lot about one of the things that the incoming president has talked about is tariffs. And today you are seeing the stock market explode to the upside. Everyone's excited about deregulation and lots of other things. But you look at the shares of Wayfair, they're down almost 15% on the day. And that is absolutely tied to what is largely perceived to be a heavily Chinese based supply chain for Wayfair. And they brought this up on the earnings call. Was this going to be an issue or concern? Again, it's one day's reaction, but it's another reminder that it's not easy being Wayfair these days.
- [13:24]
B
No question.
- [13:24]
A
Okay, up next, we're gonna do a design media check in. Fred?
- [13:28]
B
Yes, this past month has brought several leadership changes to the shelter magazine world. Stephen Orr stepped down from the helm of Better Homes and Gardens, a former podcast guest, while Apartment Therapy welcomed new editor in chief Charlie Penn. Meanwhile, a New York Times profile this week put Town and Country editor in chief and Elle Decor editorial director Stelne Valandis in the spotl. Lot going on. Where do you want to start?
- [13:50]
A
Lot going on. As you say, a lot of different moves. Stephen Orr from Better Homes and Gardens, who, as you say, we had on the show, I'm sad to see him go. I think he's done such a great job there and it sounded like he wanted a quieter life maybe. Was that your sense?
- [14:08]
B
Yeah. He seems like a lovely guy and this seems like a lovely move. I mean, I think he's going to take over a local newspaper in Cape Cod, I wanted to say. So I feel like this is a little bit more about his own personal career maybe than it is about the broader design media. I do think, to be clear, as we've talked about ad nauseum on the show, design media is not in the best spot it's ever been in. So maybe if Better Homes and Gardens was minting billions every day, he might stay a little bit longer. But I think this is probably a little bit more about his own life journey than it is about the media. Charlie Penn taking over as EIC of Apartment Therapy I think was interesting. We actually had Maxwell Ryan, the founder of Apartment Therapy, on the show a few months ago and he's trying to change the site, trying to set up a more direct connection with readers trying to get around a lot of the changes that Google and Facebook and Instagram and TikTok are making. I don't know Charlie Penn, but I was looking at her background. She's got a lot of experience in digital media. I assume he wanted someone who was just very attuned to audience engagement and establishing a direct relationship with readers. I'm guessing that that's her mandate in the new role, although maybe it would be interesting to talk to her. What was your read on that?
- [15:19]
A
Yeah, I agree. When we had Maxwell on, he talked a lot about community and wanting to build community, and that was the answer to a lot of the algorithm changes and a lot of things that's happened in search. And he needed people to come and stay and want to hang around. And I'm sure that that's very much part of Charlie's mission. Now it might be interesting to give her a little bit of time to settle in and then maybe we'll come.
- [15:47]
B
On the show tomorrow.
- [15:49]
A
Maybe we'll check in with. But Maxwell is making a lot of exciting changes at department therapy, and so I think it's definitely worth watching. And then dun dun dun dun Steline and the article that came out in the Times about her.
- [16:06]
B
Yeah, this was interesting. So, of course, Stelene Valentis is the editor in chief of Town and Country Great magazine and the editorial director of Elle Decor. This is sort of interesting, maybe for our corn of the world, simply because El Decor's former editor in chief, Assad Sirket, stepped down. I guess it was only a month ago, although it seems like a year ago. They haven't announced a new person in that role. And this profile of Stelene sort of made me wonder, well, are they just going to make her the director of both these brands? Will they put in a new EIC? The way @ House Beautiful works is that Joanna Saltz, the editor in chief of House Beautiful is all. I think her technical title is the editorial director. But she also oversees this company called Delish that she helped found. So it's possible that there may not be a new big name at the top of Eldegor in the near future and that Stelline may sort of be the functional leader. But I don't know. Maybe that's reading too much into the tea leaves. What do you think, Dennis?
- [16:59]
A
Well, I think it's hard to know. I mean, I think the timing of the article was interesting and the fact that they didn't really talk about El Decor in any great detail other than to mention her sort of overseeing role. What you hear is that lots of meetings taking place with lots of would be candidates, internal candidates and external candidates. It sounds like a lot of people potentially in the running. And she's also got an interesting circle with William Lee and David Netto and different people who write for her and who also, it sounds like, are somewhat being charged with helping her think about who the next editor in chief might be. And it wouldn't surprise me if it was even one of those two people that I just mentioned. I mean, those are dark horse candidates, to be sure, but it could be anybody. What I thought was interesting about the Times piece was that it reminded you of how much Stellin has done to make Town and Country very relevant and part of the conversation. And I'm guessing that she very much wants that same kind of feel for whoever comes in next with El Decor. But we'll see.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, T and C is a great publication. They've done just a fantastic job of making it feel like very relevant across the social media landscape. Everywhere I look, it's like, oh, that's a cool TNC headline. And it's not just a print magazine. And I think that Elle Decor, certainly there's room to improve on the digital front. And I do think, I'm guessing they want somebody who can make it feel more lively on that side. As we talked about when Assad left, these jobs aren't what they used to be. You don't have the cushy expense account that you might have had. Well, certainly you don't have the expense account that you would have had in the 90s. It's not as much of a celebrity role as it maybe once was. Look, it's obviously a great magazine and it'll be a great position forever comes in there. But it's a different kind of conversation than you'd have had 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago.
- [19:06]
A
Listen, it's very challenging to be the editor in chief, and there's a lot of people you have to keep happy. And things are changing all the time about how to measure success there. So it's not easy for anyone. And we'll see. But it will be interesting to see who Stellene decides either becomes a meaningful editor in chief or maybe she just wants a second in command. And she will. She will oversee. We'll hopefully find out soon. No one wants to tell us anything new.
- [19:37]
B
I haven't gotten the call. Maybe. Dennis, have you been summoned to the Palace?
- [19:42]
A
I am not throwing my hat in the ring for that position, but I am eager to Hear what comes out of it. And I hope Assad is doing well in whatever he's doing. Moving on, let's talk about Kravitz new tech. So at High Point Market, the brand rolled out a new application on Apple augmented reality headset, the Vision Pro, allowing users to place virtual furniture in their real environments. Fred, you explored this technology and wrote about it in this week's feature. What do you think it could mean for designers?
- [20:14]
B
Well, first of all, I think we should address that. I believe you are a skeptic of this technology, Dennis. I feel like when we were chit chatting about it in advance, you were like, what is all this about? Do you like the Vision Pro? What do you think of AR and VR headset?
- [20:27]
A
So you and I both went and when the Vision Pro first came out, we went and got the demo and it's incredible technology. And when it first came out I was wildly excited about it, as I thought Tim Cook at Apple was. But then it seemed to fizzle. I don't know, I practically heard nothing about it. And the more conversations I had with people about, oh, technology just makes everything so darn complicated and do I want to have these heavy goggles on my head all the time. There was just a lot that was, I don't know, killing the buzz about it, Fred. And I was excited, but now I'm not even sure the Dharm products really moving around.
- [21:10]
B
Yeah, I think Apple hasn't released official stats about how many Vision Pros they've sold, but analysts have said that it's certainly way under the expectations. I think they wanted to sell a few million and people are saying is it even half a million? It's hard to say. I do think that it's hardly the world conquering device that they maybe wanted it to be, but I think usage in professional context feels exactly right in a limited way. Like, are you going to walk around with this on your head all day long? Absolutely not. But could you use it to help you design a space? I think that's actually the perfect application for it. And clearly so does Kravit because they've unrolled this technology, which I got a chance to sort of quickly try out at High Point Market. They were demoing it in their showroom there. And you know, it's what you might imagine for an AR or augmented reality application. You can put on the goggles, you can place like a sectional, an ottoman, a sofa shape in the room and then sort of quote unquote digitally upholster it within Kravit fabric and sort of walk around it and see it from three dimensions and see what it really looks like from a scale perspective. And if that just sounds like, okay, who cares? I will tell you, it is very, very impressive. I think we talked about this in the High Point recap conversation, but it is really miraculous. This is the best implementation of this technology I've seen, and I know that there's a lot of skepticism around this technology, but imagine if we went back in the time machine 10 years ago or 15 years ago and we were told interior designers, like, check out these 3D renderings you can make and send them to clients over email. People would be like, why would I want to do that? I have mood boards. Whereas now that's a very common thing for designers to do. It's a very common part of the toolkit. And I wonder if this kind of technology, maybe not specifically Kravitz app, but this technology more broadly, does become a more regular part of the designer toolkit in the years ahead. But I don't know. I could be wrong. Who?
- [22:55]
A
No, listen, I hate being so skeptical. I hate it. Fred. This is not who I want to be. This is not who I am. I think you're absolutely right that if ever there were a great use case for this technology, this is it. It is spectacular what this can do. And I think that if the price of the Apple Vision Pro were to come down dramatically and be much more widely available, and I think that likely will happen if they really want to invest in this technology and I think there are great uses for it. It just seems that there's still so much. Again, when we've spoken to people recently, they've just talked about AR&VR. Just makes things more complicated sometimes. And to your point about renderings, designers sometimes say, oh, I don't love to show my client renderings because then they fall in love with this rendering and it's not going to be exactly like that. And then they're disappointed. I don't know.
- [23:53]
B
Yeah, no, I think all of that's really well taken. And I also think that Kravitz, to be clear, is not saying this is going to change every designer's business overnight. They're rolling it out in their own showrooms. They want to use it as a sales tool to show people options. I think that their cto, how cool that Kravitz has a cto, was saying that we want to be early on this. We know this is not going to be everywhere, but when it is a little bit more ubiquitous, we think will be well positioned to be in the story. So I agree there's a lot of. There's reasons to doubt, and I think Kravit is realistic about it. But look, I agree some designers are skeptical of renderings. I'm here for that argument. But I do think this is really powerful technology, and a lot of designers use renderings. Imagine if you could put your client inside the rendering. That's what this is, essentially.
- [24:36]
A
I completely agree. And again, my skepticism aside, I think that this is exactly the kind of thing that Kravit, who I consider to be one of the leaders of our industry, I think that this is exactly the kind of thing that they should be investing in and they should be showing. Look, this is potentially the future. Here it is. Here's a tool. They have such a wide network of designers. If they can get this into a lot of people's hands, it can have a huge impact on the industry. So I love that they're doing this, and it may work, it may not. Who knows? But something else might come out of it that's also worthwhile. So we'll see. Again, I don't want my skepticism to be the big takeaway from this conversation. I'm rooting for them, and I have Apple everywhere. So if the Vision Pro can come into my price range, I'm happy to make the investment. Okay, let's move on and talk about some different things that are going on in the trade, starting with Robert Stillen's online design marketplace. Fred?
- [25:38]
B
Sure. Building off the success of the brick and mortar store he formerly ran, Robert Stillen has now debuted an E commerce shop offering furniture and artwork sourced from around the globe. At the same time, Chloe Redmond Warner of Redmond Eldridge Design launched Rad Goods, her own product line, which she's selling online. Two designers getting into E commerce goes against all my.
- [25:58]
A
Wait a second, Fred. I thought E commerce was dead. I thought. No, wait, I thought you told us no more. Done.
- [26:05]
B
Well, okay, so a few months ago, I did write a 5,000, 10,000 word piece about how a lot of designers were pulling back from their E commerce offerings that they launched during the pandemic, and that is still true. I went back and checked all the designers. None of them have relaunched their site. So there has been a pullback. I think it's notable to talk about what these two sites are. They're not dropshipping sites. They're not sites where you're selling. Okay, well, here's a piece from four hands. Here's a piece from noir that you can get literally anywhere else. Just it happens to be through my website. These people are selling their own products that they exclusively control. In Chloe's case, it's her own line. In Robert's case, it's a lot of one of a kind. And so I think that is the version of E commerce that you can get into somewhat credibly. Maybe we should start with Robert. I mean, one thing I will say is this is not cheap. I mean, like, I think I was looking at the chairs on Robert's site and was cheapest one was like $7,000 or something like that. This is not a kind of like.
- [26:59]
A
I have a $42,000 coffee table in my cart right now on his site.
- [27:03]
B
There you go. Yeah, there you go. What'd you think of it?
- [27:06]
A
Well, I mean, I think that, listen, I think this is part of Robert's DNA. He came up in the design industry through having a shop and being able to express his taste and his look through having a shop, which comes up in conversation a lot when you talk to designers and why they are so passionate about having a store, be it online or in person, is that they can express their look and their taste and you can get sort of a sense of what they're like. So I think it makes. Makes a lot of sense. He's wanted to do this and it fits in with his whole model. I think.
- [27:48]
B
Yeah, designers are natural shopkeepers. I think that's there's a lot of crossover in that Venn diagram and I think this is a lot of it. Sometimes we talk about these big economic trends. This is no longer feasible or whatever. At the end of the day when people want to try this. I think one of the cool things about E commerce is that the barriers to entry are so low now that you can take a flyer on it, you can have fun, you can build an E commerce site. And I think Robert is smart to populate his digital shelves with stuff that it does reflect his own aesthetic and is not just a bunch of dropship merchandise from the vendors that everybody else uses. Again, it's all very expensive. This is not impulse buy something for underneath the tree. This is something who's no.
- [28:27]
A
And I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up selling a lot to his designer colleagues. I think that's who will find this site of interest. And it's worth going just to see images of his projects actually, because he does such great work and you can find inspiration there too. Let's move on and talk about Kravitz new partnership, not the Vision Pro, but.
- [28:50]
B
Another new partnership, a lot of Kravitz this week. The brand announced this week that it is now the exclusive distributor of British fabric and wallcoverings brand Scion in the US And Canada. Now, Scion is an interesting line because it's actually owned by Sanderson. So why is Kravit distributing another company's fabric given that Sanderson does have a presence in the U.S. right. What's going on here, Dennis?
- [29:10]
A
Yeah, it's a great point. I think that Sanderson wanted to build on the success that they've been having with the Clark and Clark brand, which is another of their brands that Kravit is representing. I think that they wanted to create greater clarity in terms of what lines they would actually have in their own showrooms and what lines they want to have available with Kravit, for example, or another partner. And I think Kravit has proven to be a good partner for them. And so this different price point line, Skyline is very different price point than their Morris line or their Zoffany lines, which have a much higher price point. I think this made sense to be in the hands of Kravit and J just, again, take advantage of Kravitz. Very broad distribution.
- [30:02]
B
Yeah, it's interesting because I do think that plugging a line into the Kravit machine gets you just in front of a whole lot more designers than it would if you tried to distribute it on its own. I will say also, I spoke briefly with Cary Kravit while I was in the showroom with the goggles on. And one thing we talked about was just that Kravitz is definitely trying to emphasize the fact that they do work with these smaller boutique lines on a distribution level. They recently purchased purchased Caroline Cecil's line. They're trying to get more boutiquey lines in front of designers because I think people have come to appreciate the brand for delivering basics very efficiently and having great showrooms and having good distribution. But I think they also want to be known for, hey, we have these small, special lines too. Come check us out for that. I'm guessing that we'll see more movement along these lines for the Kravitz to put fun, cool brands in front of designers more frequently. They've started marketing them all together too, as well. So it seems like there's something in it for both sides of the equation here. I'll have to check it out in Kravitz showroom at the D and D building. If they'll still let me in. I don't know if I'm on their Do Not Enter list at this point. Dennis, can you darken those doors at this point in your career?
- [31:13]
A
I'm getting my fake mustache ready and seeing if I can sneak in myself because I'm pretty sure those cameras are going to pick us up. Fred yes. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a roundup of the industry's big hires this month and a look at the best debuts out of High Point Market. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Claffs, the world leader in sauna luxury. Since 1928, Claffs has designed and built every sauna with meticulous attention to detail. Detail. From the moment you step into a Claf's sauna, you'll feel the claps difference, the weight of the door, the scent of the wood, the shape of the bench. All designed with distinction. Clafs A Century of Superior Heat to learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit claffsusa.com that's klafs USA.com this podcast is also sponsored by Anthem plus smart showering only from Kohler. With Anthem plus, you can control up to 12 water outlets, design custom lighting environments to match your mood and create your ideal escape. With three levels of soothing steam set to music from your own playlist. Every moment asks you to imagine when you take a shower. Where does your shower take you? Explore Anthem+ smart showering@kohler.com Showers and we're back. Today I am joined by comedian Dan Rosen who became widely followed in design circles for for some of his viral house tour videos. Dan, thanks so much for joining us.
- [33:16]
C
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
- [33:18]
A
I was delighted to meet you not too long ago at ICFF and get a chance to chat with you. I've been following your work for a.
- [33:26]
C
While, Dan, and sharing, I'm sure, diligently sharing and liking and favoriting.
- [33:31]
A
Let's tell people a little bit about who you are and how you came to work on videos and marketing. A lot of different things in your background.
- [33:43]
C
Sure. I think I view myself as a comedian mainly and for the last 10 or so years I've been doing scene up comedy and then like everyone must these days, making Internet videos and content which has just been turbocharged with, you know, TikTok and Instagram, and I went to art school. I went to Cornell, so there's a really strong architecture school there. And so many of my friends kind of were in that. So it was just kind of, I guess, a hobby. And then during the pandemic, I started making these videos on TikTok almost by accident, just because I think I, like everyone else, kind of became slightly addicted to some of the home tours that proliferated as we're all stuck inside, envious of how other people were living. And. And I saw. And I had some issues with just some of the trends that I. That I noticed. I kind of would just make these one offs on TikTok. And it was by far the thing that resonated the most because I think I was still approaching it from a comedic angle and, you know, kind of. Kind of roasting or being silly, but still trying to kind of keep a critical eye. And I guess I didn't expect people within the design community to kind of resonate with the videos as much as they did. And I kind of just viewed it as like, oh, these seem to be obvious trends or mistakes that I'm seeing that are bothering me. And this is the kind of content. This is the kind of design content that most people are viewing. You know, it's by far the most popular medium. And people who don't know much about designer don't obviously don't read magazines or don't think about it much. This is. They're getting it through celebrities in their homes. And to me, they often. These, I guess, homes felt like lifeless or needlessly opulent or the point was just their opulence and luxury, and they seem to just be copying and pasting each other. And so, yeah, and, yeah, that kind of took off and exploded to where I'm talking to you. Today, we're reviewing Kim and Kanye's house. I know they broke up, but I think this is important because the house is probably why this is not a home. This is an Italian insane asylum. There's no stuff. There's, like, two stuffs. That's all there is in this house. White and nothing.
- [36:18]
A
Like, you.
- [36:18]
C
You want a house that you live in, not one that's just made to be in a design magazine. Look how far this coffee table is from the chair. Like, are you gonna put your coffee here? And then you're gonna, like, do a split to get the coffee? That's not. Not conducive. This house is like an abandoned Roman ruin. Like, it's so minimal. It doesn't even exist. That's why they got divorced, because there's nothing to do in this house but, like, yell at each other. Other and get in each other's space. Maybe if they had a TV or some books, they'd still be together. Look at this sink. You know how many fights they probably had just because it kept flooding? Why?
- [36:55]
A
So in that video, you suggest that perhaps the reason Kim and Kanye broke up was the. Was the house. And, you know, listen, that. That. That's as good a reason as any of the other reasons for what went wrong in that.
- [37:07]
C
Yeah.
- [37:07]
A
In that relationship. But. But that video, like so many of the celebrity videos that you were just describing, you had some issues. You had some things that you wanted to point out. And I got the feeling from watching the early days of it, I got the feeling that at first you were just amusing yourself with it, and then it sort of caught on, and you were like, oh, okay, yeah, sure, I'll serve up more of this since an audience is appearing.
- [37:37]
C
Yeah, yeah, I think definitely give the people what they want. And then, you know, now every time there's a new tour, a new home, people send it to me and, like, can't wait to hear your thoughts. Yeah, I guess with that Kanye one, you know, that's Axel Vervoort, right. Is design who's, you know, I obviously respect but that house and admire his work, but that house is objectively insane. And, you know, I mean, like everything else, celebrity is like, a really attractive hook to be able to talk about things that I think often, maybe people would not be interested in if there was not a glitzy name attached to it. And similarly, when I talk about art and trends in the art world, it's much easier if Mark Zuckerberg pays Daniel Ashram an insane amount of money to sculpt his wife, and then I can. That somehow locks it in for maybe people who aren't in the design world that this is something they can be interested in or it's just a little hook. And then I'm kind of free to hopefully bring in some ideas about just about the use of space and obviously, interior design and furniture and balance that, I think, to people outside the design world is very much taken for granted. And the main thing that people seem to recognize is just, like, money and bigness and scale and. Yeah. And I think through the videos, I'm trying to kind of examine how those. There's actually a lot more to it to living in a comfortable home. And obviously, it's, you know, it's. Oh, People always love when you poke fun at the rich and famous.
- [39:21]
A
Well, so.
- [39:22]
B
Right.
- [39:22]
A
So that's part of what I'm interested in here. So earlier you were talking about how they suddenly resonated and what was interesting was watching a lot of designers, very famous household name designers, clearly showing up for a lot of your content. I saw Jake Arnold in the mix and Martin Lawrence Ballard and a bunch of other big name designers were constantly liking your posts and I hope being amused by them and finding them enjoyable for what they were intended to be. Right. Which was just sort of you poking a little bit of fun at maybe sometimes themes that were often seen as you've suggested, and maybe I don't know if people were taking themselves too seriously or whatever element you were just kind of just poking at in a comedic sense.
- [40:15]
C
Yeah. I obviously didn't realize this when I first started, but it's kind of clear to me now that there seemed to be a general lack of any sort of criticism.
- [40:24]
A
Yes.
- [40:25]
C
In, in the design world. And that I had kind of stumbled onto something that was, was desired and felt needed. And I'm sure obviously people have, have takes and have a lot of thoughts about who's doing good work, who's derivative, who's kind of boring, who's being too safe, whatever. And there aren't really any design critics, you know, I guess there's some architecture critics like whatever, Michael Kimmelman or Oliver Wainwright. But I feel like they don't do much design and I feel like most of the design media we do get is essentially pr.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah.
- [41:04]
C
And so. Yeah, and, and that was a real surprise to me that people actually within the design world were like, oh, we, this is maybe something that's, that's necessary and helpful and also I'm sure maddening to many people who are extremely talented to see that the most popular videos and the most popular designers and homes that everyone was watching were things that were like really not, not that exciting. And I think there are worlds also quite quite similar. When I make videos about art, people are like so relieved that someone is actually talking about how the most well known artists that your average person on the street knows actually really are not doing the most exciting, the most challenging things. And just that delta between what people in the design or art world think and what the general public is aware of is really big. And so I guess I, like stump through comedy, was able to kind of bridge that gap a little bit.
- [42:02]
A
I think that's it exactly. Nothing is more fun than getting a few drinks in a highly opinionated designer who can't wait to tell you all of the terrible work that's being done and by whom, but then they can never say that that publicly. That can never be on the record. And to your point, there isn't any real interior design criticism out there, and there certainly isn't a place where you can make jokes and create comedy sketches around it. And yet, as we all know, so much of it is absolutely hilarious. And you see these celebrity home tours, and it doesn't take a lot of work to find the comedy in it. You do a great job of sort of picking apart some of the themes, but I think secretly so many people are sitting at home and having a laugh about it all, but we can't somehow speak publicly about it, and you can.
- [43:02]
C
And do you think it's just because it's just seen as uncouth to kind of trash your colleagues?
- [43:08]
A
I think to your point, there's certainly that element, but you also made the point about it being a bit of a PR machine. And so I, I think that's a lot of it, too. You've got a lot of businesses that are represented within those projects, and they've got their furnishings and kitchens and whatever else is in there. I know you're. You're constantly bashing the all white kitchen, for example, and. Right. And so a lot of people are sensitive about that. And I'm sure you've heard that feedback, Dan.
- [43:38]
C
Yes, yes, I've certainly heard heard feedback. And people have take an issue. Some celebrities have taken issue, too, but those only the ones that deserved it. So I don't feel bad.
- [43:51]
A
Well, but I mean, the industry historically hasn't had a great sense of humor. And I think, as you and I have talked about in the past, the industry could benefit considerably from sometimes not taking itself quite so seriously.
- [44:08]
C
Yeah. I mean, in the end, it's just, you know, it's a table at the end of the day. Well, exactly, which is great. And there's some amazing people making amazing tables. But the way people discuss it and discuss, you know, new furnishings and new products in homes can obviously feel very stuffy.
- [44:28]
A
I think it's interesting to watch the content go viral and people find amusement in it almost wishing they could somehow be more free about it. It's like you've tapped into. Into people feeling somewhat, I don't want to say trapped, but they're. They're locked into. Into the business side of it all, again, understandably so.
- [44:55]
C
But, yeah, yeah, you don't want to. You want to be in the 8100. So you don't want to be exactly critical of the designer.
- [45:03]
A
Right, Right.
- [45:04]
C
I think for average people who are watching this, they're. It's just kind of mainlined to them in a way that. And they. There's. There ends up being this assumption that this is what good taste is, and these are. These are the parameters, and they're not shown that much outside of it. And I. I can imagine that if you are someone who really cares about design, that. That would be somewhat maddening if you're trying to push things forward in any way or do something unique and it just. You just see the same 20 objects, you know, reused over and over.
- [45:41]
A
Well, exactly. And you. And you have a whole series of videos that you've done where you. Where you call out essentially the most overseen or overexposed pieces of furniture. And the Hermes throw needs to move on. You know, a lot of that.
- [45:57]
C
Yeah. Bellini sofas. And I have nothing even against these particular pieces, but it creates such a limited, I think, vocabulary and understanding of what is possible. Those pieces end up losing any of their power because they only begin to function as signifiers of wealth and status and a predefined notion of good taste. And to me, it feels very, very limiting. And even just as a viewer of these homes, you know, whatever. I live in New York in my shitty shoebox, like so many. And, you know, there's an element of voyeurism that's behind why these videos are so viral, I think, and a mix of envy and awe and fantasy. And so often we're just given these kind of stale and barren visions of what a home can be that don't feel like they go beyond. Just like, these things were expensive. This home is very big. We paid famous designers and architects to construct it. And, yeah, I think we deserve a broader vision.
- [47:15]
A
Tell me what informed your thoughts, and tell me about growing up for you and what informed your thoughts about design or beyond later. Spending time in art school. But tell me when you were younger, how you grew up and how that shaped your thinking.
- [47:36]
C
Yeah, I grew up in New York, in Yorkville. I have three brothers, so we were six people in a one bedroom, and it was the least designed. There was not a single thing that was. My parents are immigrants, and they just did not. There was no thought at all or that apartment could be designed. I don't think we ever had a single thing hung up on the wall. There's mostly futons. My parents slept in the living room. It was just like, really pure Function. But I think every person born and raised in New York becomes obsessed with real estate because it's. It's so much about what you can do with your little box and, oh, their. Their little box is a little bit bigger than my little box. And, you know, you would go to. You go to parties just to see the apartment. I think you're like, well, the parties can be bad, but the apartment could be good. And I think maybe the first time, when I was in high school, I went to a friend's house whose mom was an architect, and she redid the home. And there's like, a sofa there that was like. I'd never even conceived that a sofa could be. You know, it just felt like, oh, this is wildly different. This is unique. The buttons didn't match later. Now, in retrospect, it was a polder sofa sofa, which is an iconic piece, but, I mean, but something about it, it felt much more artistic. It wasn't just like a sectional or a lazy boy, which I feel like is mostly what I had encountered. And it kind of sparked an interest that had, for me, really only been there for art, you know? Yeah, I never. I never thought that much about it. For design, it was almost kind of just like, these are the furnishings, this is the chair. You know, and then being around architects in college and we shared kind of a work, the shop where they would be making out their models, and the kind of ambient understanding of all that filtered in, and you just slowly begin to hone your. Your eye.
- [49:40]
A
So much of your content seems to be almost a plea to people to explore broader, wider universes, that there's so much more out there, and we start repeating things so much. And again, you mentioned algorithms earlier. So often when you talk to designers about their Instagram feed, they'll say to you, everyone is just seeing the same stuff over and over again. And so, of course, projects start to look like that because that's what you're. That's what you're fed. And we wonder what can sort of break. Break through that a little bit.
- [50:13]
C
So some of these tours in the videos, they almost literally say, like, oh, I saw this in another video, and I'm doing this now. And so it's just this feedback loop, and then it just reinforces these ideas. And I guess, you know, the design world doesn't really have an equivalent of a. Of a gallery or. I mean, there are some small galleys, but it doesn't have, like, museums where curators are able to. Using their own tastes and judgment, you know, whatever Whitney Biennial can show what is really cutting edge or avant garde or new, and that people will, and millions of people go to see new art exhibits every year. There's not that equivalent in the design world. So really all there is. And what you're seeing is what's in these videos is what's going viral on Instagram. And so, yeah, I would definitely say that I'm trying to almost have back the same algorithms and discuss those objects that are ubiquitous, the Ultra Forgole mirror, those things that everyone has seen a million times. And then I'm able to use that familiarity as an opportunity to maybe, especially now, before, maybe I was just throwing rocks. I don't think I have a duty, but I think I have an opportunity to bring people in and maybe think about design and design history and just the breadth of the world through these specific objects or celebrities that people can come in with as a hook.
- [51:44]
A
Well, and the virality of some of the videos that you've made suggests that there is a hunger for this. They long for, to your point, a mirror to be held up. And you're a fun, engaging voice for people. And so they're, they're happy enough, even though some of them might feel they're, they're being criticized or they're being judged. Right, because they too are producing that, that work or what have you. And I, and I get it, and I never get the sense that you're mean spirited or that you're doing takedowns. It's all for amusement.
- [52:25]
C
No, I wanted to, I want to be, to be better also too. Like, my hope is that, like, is not just to take someone down a peg, it's to kind of pose the question, like, can we imagine an alternative or something a bit broader, a bit more exciting, that feels a bit more true to the person. And there are a lot of super famous designers that I respect and admire, but I feel like so often you'll see them be, be hired for a project and then they just have their signature style and they, you know, you know, they come like Frank Gehry. They come and they, they put their stamp and their style onto someone's home. And then to me it's like, well, that seems almost antithetical to the notion of a home. That's nothing to do with you. You know, it's almost like this alien craft that's been, been forced upon you. And it's exciting to viewers because they're familiar with this style and it's good for the designer's portfolio because it's Another example that people can come to. But so often it feels antithetical to the notion of what trying to build a home for yourself should be. And if people are looking to these videos and copying the trends and the styles that are coming out of it, they're not thinking about design as something that should be a reflection of your own taste, your own interests, the way you live, you know, you're just trying to mimic, you know, how rich and famous people live and they're now mimicking each other, you know, well, and it.
- [54:03]
A
Seems like in some of your videos you're not, you're not always sort of roasting people. Sometimes you're, you're, you seem to actually appreciate the what. What.
- [54:13]
B
Right.
- [54:13]
A
What some homes look like.
- [54:16]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's harder to be funny when you're being positive, which I've learned, learned those are much harder videos. Negativity is, is fun and joy is less, less amusing. So I still try to, but, but I still think it's important because not only do I not want to just be this page that's just like a, a hater. And my goal is isn't, isn't right, isn't just to spread hate. Although some hate isn't necessary. I do think I also want to show people and highlight. Here are actually examples where I feel like someone took a risk or created something that doesn't just look like it's copy and pasted just off the top of my head. Some of the stuff that Pearson Ward has done for Josh Brolin or I think for Emma Roberts, those have stood out in terms of the celebrity homes because to me, to me, I can see the person's soul integrated into the home. I don't even need them to be my taste. There are things that I've seen that I don't look personally, but I can just respect that. It feels like someone really went for it and opened up the possibilities of what design could be. And yeah, and I hope more celebrities, more wealthy people feel comfortable because if they can't do it, then who can't? Because most of us are not able to afford a complete gut renovation or these high end Italian pieces. We're stuck with our direct to consumer shelves, but at least we can look upon and gaze and awe.
- [55:59]
A
I'm wondering the feedback that you have gotten from designers because as I mentioned, quite a few designers seem to follow you quite regularly and I'm assuming your DMs get filled up with feedback. Tell me what response has been.
- [56:15]
C
Yeah, people for the most part have been really positive and, I think, appreciative. And that was honestly a surprise, but also a real joy that. That what I was saying and my critiques were resonating with people who really knew what they're talking about and that I was feeling a need. And also kind of validated, like, okay, oh, yeah, I'm just a stupid comedian, but maybe I do. I do have some sort of gauge for interesting work and what's lacking and that it's really felt. And if I can kind of speak for people who are a little bit more hemmed in, because I am free. I'm outside, you know, I don't need to have a partnership with Noel or whoever. I'm a little more free to say the things that I guess they wish they could say. It's a bit actually more stressful now that I know that many designers follow me. And now when I see a new house that I have to review, I'm like, oh, does this designer who did the place, did they do it now? Do I have to be a little more. It was a little bit easier when I was ignorant, and I can kind of fire from the hip. And now I'm. I'm a little more concerned about hurting people's feelings. And I've gotten a message from some celebrities who are annoyed that I have not yet reviewed their homes.
- [57:33]
A
They're like, come on, it's out there. Hurry up.
- [57:35]
B
Yeah.
- [57:36]
C
Waiting for. Then I'm like, well, now I feel really bad, you know, but, yeah, I mean. I mean, also, I've gotten opportunities now to meet a lot more people in the industry. Yeah. I feel really lucky that. Because people know.
- [57:52]
A
So even though people know that you might poke fun, they still ask for it.
- [57:58]
C
There are a lot of people who really, like, I want you to come to my studio and roast me.
- [58:02]
A
Give me your worst.
- [58:03]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [58:04]
A
Roast us up.
- [58:05]
C
They want, you know, it's a fetish. Roasting fetish. Just destroy me. Comedian destroys hot designer.
- [58:16]
A
And. And they. And they welcome that. They feel all press is good press.
- [58:19]
C
And so, yeah, I think it's an honor. You know, people want to get roasted by Don Rickles. Not. I'm not comparing myself to. To him, but I think there's, like, an honor. Yeah. And also showing that I can take it and that I kind of, you know, I know it's up. You know, I'm not. I'm not so stuffy that I can't take a little ribbing. And I think also, you know, if you work in the industry, you know, if you're producing something that's, that's of value, that's interesting, or whether you're just doing something to that, that fits the market, which is fine, make your money, I have no issue. But, but that's different than really creating interesting work.
- [58:55]
A
Yeah. And, and I, and I love that that's at this, at the center of all of this is that it's just pushing people to, to dig deeper in some cases to, to create more interesting work. As you have shown us, there is a huge opportunity to, again, if nothing else, not take ourselves quite as seriously in the design industry, in the art world, and in all facets of our life. And so I appreciate that your work drives home that message. And as I say, I'm delighted to get to speak to you and I'm happy to support the. Support the effort that you're making.
- [59:32]
C
Thanks for having me.
- [59:38]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [59:47]
B
Italy caught my eye. As you know, we've had a lot of struggles here in the US Trying to make furniture more sustainably. Well, now a group of Italian furniture companies are coming together to form this consortium with the highly buzzy name of the Extended Producer Responsibility Consortium. Maybe it's a little catchier in Italian, but it's a bunch of furniture companies that are coming together to try and set up basically a more sustainable supply chain, set up a more circular arrangement between their respective factories. I think it's great. I don't know, who knows whether it'll succeed or not, but I do think so often we put the burden of trying to manufacture more responsibly on one individual company, but without the network of other partners to supply them and other people to help them handle the burden of actually implementing a lot of the necessary measures. I think you leave companies high and dry and no change really gets made. It needs to be collective effort. I haven't really dug deep on this. I'm looking forward to digging in deeper, but I applaud the Italian companies coming together to do it, because I think that's really how it's going to change, if indeed it does. So bravo, Italy.
- [60:48]
A
Yeah, I agree. I hope it resonates me, too.
- [60:51]
B
What caught your eye this week, Dennis?
- [60:52]
A
Well, I was thinking that for everyone who might have missed the ticking tent event, don't despair, because there is another super fun sale coming up which is the annual Chelsea Textiles Warehouse Sale. That is a who's who of product and designers and ch Chelsea Textiles brings in a whole range of bolts of fabric and lighting and other products that other people bring to the sale. And it's a great big sale that this year is happening November 13th and 14th at St. Ignatius Loyola up at 980 Park Avenue, and they're touting their biggest selection ever and 40 to 90% reductions. And it's, it's always a, it's always a fun sale and you end up buying more than you really need.
- [61:47]
B
Well, that sounds like fun.
- [61:48]
A
Exactly. It's worth, worth checking out. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with us the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome. Com. This episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.