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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: In defense of the dining room. Plus: Charles Cohen gets a deadline
01:02:37
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, author John Ota joins the show to discuss his new book, The Dining Room.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with author John Ota, whose new book is A Passionate Defense of the Dining Room. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including side doors, next chapter, designer co working, and a dramatic deadline for Charles Cohen to do all that. I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred. Hi, Fred.
- [00:33]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:35]
A
How's the voice doing, Fred?
- [00:36]
B
It's seen better days. I'm sorry to the listeners, I'm a little bit hoarse, but I have a good excuse, which is that I went to a party.
- [00:44]
A
Yes. With some Irish people. Fred. Which I was so happy to see.
- [00:48]
B
Yes. Very, very subtle Irish accent there. Yes. I mean, when an Irish furniture brand, orier in this case, invites you to their St. Patrick's Day party dinner, you gotta go.
- [00:57]
A
You gotta go. Love it.
- [00:58]
B
It was really fun. You know, it's just, it's, it's. I was really struck being at this party. It's how fun it is in the design industry. I was. You sit at this table and we were sort of admiring the beautiful glassware and someone's like, oh, the person who designed that is sitting right next to you. And it was like, oh, hello. And it was Sophie Lou Jacobson, who's a very talented designer, and she was walking through her supply chain and it was just, it was, it was a great time. So I had a good St. Patrick's Day. How about you, Dennis?
- [01:23]
A
Well, they're good people. I've, I've chatted with them before and I, I understand that the, the mom, Rosie, was in town, so I'm sure
- [01:30]
B
she read a poem at the dinner, Is that right?
- [01:32]
A
Yes, exactly.
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B
It was great.
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A
So I'm sure you had a wonderful time. Yes. I'm always glad to see people celebrating
- [01:38]
B
St. Patrick's Day, but did you get up to anything?
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A
Sadly, I meant to get into the city for what is usually one of the best parades in New York city is the St. Patrick's Day Parade. Truth be told, it was a little chilly, so I opted not to. But I let my people down, and I'm sorry about that.
- [01:55]
B
Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode long awaited conversation with consultant and columnist Sean Lowe. Are you the sun, Dennis? Are you the sun or the moon? That's the question.
- [02:07]
A
I want to be the sun. And I think many designers will feel the same way when they listen to this conversation. They'll say, yes, why aren't I The sun. Why aren't I going first? As Sean makes it clear he wants designers to do so. I think it was a great conversation, long awaited conversation as you say. Fred, what did you think?
- [02:26]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, I think it was definitely a sustained pep talk for interior designers. That's definitely the vibe with Shawn. He has his hot takes and he has strong feelings on pricing, structure and all kinds of issues in the design industry, which is why he's one of our columnists, because he comes through with the hot takes. And some people disagree, some people don't agree, but the one thing that I feel like really comes through when you talk to Sean is just his passion for making designers believe in themselves, in their value. And there really is this crisis of self confidence in our industry in a weird way of designers being shy about, you know, charging what they're worth and, you know, demanding that their time be paid for. And I think that Sean very effectively just cuts through all of that and is very good at, you know, working with designers to get them to realize, you know, what they do is incredibly valuable. So I think, as I said, a burst of pep. Put some pep in your step with the Sean Lowe podcast interview. What do you think?
- [03:22]
A
Absolutely. And the confidence issue is one that I talk about often and is a concern for me and isn't justified. And I also think this issue of how often designers services are undersold in the world out there and that people don't fully realize all a designer is going to do to change your life, not just your home. And we certainly got into that as well. So as you say, it's a good pep talk with Sean.
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C
Exactly.
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B
Save it for a rainy day if you haven't already listened.
- [03:56]
A
Exactly. If you're feeling down, tune in to Sean. We're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first a quick break. Foreign. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art collections. Grounded in ethical production, innovative craft and meticulous design, Laloy is known for its strategic planning and the past year has been no exception with their focus on expanding inventory and strengthening manufacturing partnerships abroad. As a family run company built for the long haul, Lalloy continues to invest in product innovation, operational scale and the employees who serve its retail and design partners every day. To connect with a dedicated Lelloy sales representative, visit loloirugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com this podcast is sponsored by Newport Brass. Since 1989, Newport Brass has been handcrafting Solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures in California. Combining timeless design with exceptional quality. With complete collections spanning traditional to Modern, and 22 finish options across every product, Newport Brass gives designers and homeowners unmatched creative freedom to make a space that's uniquely theirs. Each piece is built to feel substantial in the hand and look beautiful in the home. Designed for today and made to last for generations. Visit newportbrass.com to explore their full portfolio and to discover craftsmanship that stands the test of time. And we're back. First up, Fred, someone we haven't talked about in a while, Charles Cohen.
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B
Let's go there. Last week, a judge gave the design center landlord 45 days and to settle his debt. And there's a lot of that debt, at least 187 million of it, at least with this particular legal issue. What'd you make of this news?
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A
A reminder. Why not to give people personal guarantees? The Charles Cohen story and all the lessons learned. Shall we recap all the drama and the history of this case, Fred, and
- [06:20]
B
how we got here, how long we got here? I mean, okay, so people probably know that Charles Cohen is the design center landlord who owns the PDC in LA and the D and D building in New York. So in 2022, he borrowed $533 million from this company called Fortress. And as you said, he put up not only properties, but he made a personal guarantee of $187 million of that. So he was on the hook, not his company. If he didn't pay back the money, lo and behold, he did not pay back the money. And Cohen has been locked in this ongoing legal battle with Fortress that has spanned multiple years and tens of millions of dollars, and that pushed him to sell off the Dakota, and now what feels like a very real timeline. The judge has said that if he doesn't pay off this 187 million within. It was 45 days, now it's probably down to 38 or something like that. If he doesn't do that, then Fortress takes over receivership of his portfolio, and they can sell off whatever they want to pay themselves back.
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A
Yes. And so he really has to make some decisions, and more importantly, he has to find some buyers perhaps of these properties. It's not just him, but.
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B
Well, Forrest. Yeah, that's the really confusing thing. It's hard to sell a skyscraper in 40 days. You know, that's a movie. How to sell a skyscraper in 40 days. Yeah. And, I mean, he already has sold a couple of buildings, so it's not. It's not the full 187 million. It seems he owes a mere 153 or 135, you know, but, yeah, it's tough to just kind of turn these things over quickly. So it's certainly possible that we're heading towards a world where the decision is out of Charles Cohen's hands and Fortress can look at his real estate portfolio and sell whatever they need to in order to pay themselves back. The tricky thing is, and I feel like you and I have been a little bit guilty of this, as sort of taking it as kind of like a fait accompli, that they will sell off the D and D and the PDC to a new owner and someone will come in and revamp those buildings. That's far from a guarantee. Even if Fortress does take over receivership of his portfolio, he has other buildings to sell. So it's very much a tbd. It's just that this is a turning point.
- [08:23]
A
It's a great point. And we focus on the design centers because that's what's important to us, Fred, and our listeners. And so that's what we focus in on. But you're absolutely right. There are plenty of other buildings. And he's already sold some other buildings, as you mentioned, to raise some of the money that he's already paid down. He does have a vast portfolio, and it sounds like some things are in the works and have been for some time. So we'll see. Still, it wouldn't be surprising to see the D and D change hands, but it's certainly, as you say, not a fait accompli.
- [09:01]
B
Yeah, and it's complicated, too, because let's say Fortress takes over ownership, or receivership, rather, of his portfolio, and they sell off some other buildings, but he maintains ownership of the D and D&PDC. He's still in a very different position, just as a business person after losing other properties. So he may look at his portfolio and go like, well, I used to have four design centers. Now I only have two. Why don't I go down to zero? There's a lot that could happen and the ownership could change hands, but I just want to throw some cold water on people who are in those buildings thinking, oh, okay, any day now it's going to be a new landlord. And indeed, there's been these kind of funny signs in the midst of all this legal drama. The D and D is opening up.
- [09:39]
A
A new restaurant is coming to town.
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B
I know. Which we've been complaining about for, I don't know, five years. So that's interesting. And then also at the PDC, there's this 50th anniversary party that's being presented by Charles Cohen. I don't know if he's gonna be there, but there are these outward signs that he's not planning to sell anytime soon. But you never know when the rubber meets the road. You never know.
- [10:02]
A
No, of course. And listen, we don't know. And we can imagine a scenario where Charles Cohen's hand is forced by these debt obligations. And it's a fun, dramatic story to say that the D and D building is going to change hands because of all of this. It absolutely might not. It's even harder for me to imagine him parting with the pdc, which I think has a whole host of other associations and meanings for him and partially because of his love of the film industry as well and being out there. And I think that's very much tied to who he is and how he sees himself. So I think the D and D building is. We know the occupancy challenges that they've had for years, and we know what some of the issues are. And there are a lot of people that think that building could be converted or that building could be built upon and be a much taller building and therefore a much more valuable space. So a lot to play out. But as we said at the top of the story, the sand through the hourglass is dropping rapidly.
- [11:03]
B
This deadline feels real.
- [11:05]
A
Yes, exactly. It does feel real. So I feel like we'll be talking about something dramatic in the coming weeks and we look forward to that. In the meantime, we're gonna move on and talk about side Door. The platform announced this week that it's winding down and relaunching as Discover Market, an app for navigating trade shows. Ah, Side Door.
- [11:27]
B
Side Door. A little trip down memory lane. We had its founders on the show way back when. It was, I guess it was a little bit of a Covid company to some degree. You know, it. Just to quickly explain for those who aren't familiar, it was a little bit of what I call a digital multi line. So like an e commerce platform where designers could shop a lot of trade brands in one place. You didn't have to have a million different accounts with different brands. You could just go to one aggregated place and shop for all of them at once. But it also had this kind of cool hook, which is that designers could make a mood board. They could pull product from brands, make a cool little mood board, put it on their site, and it was shoppable. So Their fans could transact. And it was kind of all this interesting affiliate commerce notion. So it was kind of a. It was a cool idea. But I spoke with Lindsey Humphrey, one of the founders and now someone who's launching Discover Market. And I mean, basically what she said was just that, like, it was a Covid thing. Like, people were buying during the pandemic when there was so much business for designers and so many new designers and brands were just trying to turn everything over. But over time, their transactions went down. People just weren't buying on side Door anymore, but they were kind of using it just to curate product. And so that's where the idea for this new company came around.
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A
Exactly. It sounds like it became much more of the mood board side of the business and less of the transaction side of the business.
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B
Yeah, I think that's just, you know, E commerce has changed. You know, the design business has changed. It was maybe sort of lightning in a bottle, and it wasn't going to outlast its circumstances. But, you know, Lindsay and her partner, her business partner, Gage Edward, are launching this new thing which is called Discover Market, which is. It's almost a totally different business. So it's only sort of tangentially related to Side Door, but you can sort of see how the two come together, which is Discover Market is an app. You put it on your phone and you're wandering through a market like, say, High Point or Las Vegas. What you do is when you're in a participating brand showroom, you can just sort of open up the app and point your camera at a product like a lamp or a sofa or whatever, and it'll save that data to your phone. So, you know, what they're trying to address is the pain point of going to market, taking like 5,000 pictures of your friend standing next to this lamp and then getting home and forgetting what everything was, which I do think is a real problem. And if this works the way they say it does, then it's an interesting solution. So I thought it was kind of a fun twist on the side Door story. What'd you make of the new Discover Market app, Dennis?
- [13:47]
A
Well, just in time for spring market, we'll get to see it coming to life. I'm excited, and I'm eager to hear more about it. I wonder, do you get the sense that they took the best of what worked with Side Door and what they learned from it and realized that this was an opportunity?
- [14:06]
B
Yeah, I think that's. That's what they did. I mean, you know, they had these relationships with Vendors, so they had this big product catalog sitting in a database somewhere. Designers were looking at it and manipulating it, but they weren't buying. And I think the other part of it too is that like vendors actually were sort of uncomfortable with the transaction part because, you know, like trade brands want to do business directly with the designer. I mean, you know, they'll deal with an intermediary if they have to, but they really want to have a direct relationship because so much can go wrong. And, you know, it's just, it's just cleaner if they're interacting directly with the designer. So they had a lot of people, I think, who were interested in the idea but didn't want to sign up for it because it was transactional. But now that it's just sort of discovery, I think they got a lot more brands who are excited. They said they're launching with like 200 brands, including four hands, visual comfort, Century, Leloy, kind of, you know, Kravit, a lot of the big high point companies. So, you know, for me the big question is like, do designers use it right? Because I think even though it's inefficient, a lot of designers are, you know, operate on the model of taking a photo and coming back to it later. And so you have to get into this mindset of, okay, here's this app that I have and I pointed at this. It doesn't seem like it's hard to you, but it is a new behavior. And that can certainly take time for designers to internalize. But it does seem like it's a problem or a pain point. And I'm interested to see if this solves it.
- [15:19]
A
I'm interested to see if it solves it as well. And I'm also interested to see how companies like this navigate the many challenges that AI seems to be presenting to the software world in general. We've seen in the, in the equities market, we've seen a major decline in some of these huge software companies share values. And we've seen lots of speculation about some of the lenders who have lent to all these software companies being concerned about how this plays out. And it just seems to be a time where there's a lot of anxiety around the software space in general. And so I imagine it's a challenging time to be launching something like this in the face of every day we learn that, oh well, actually AI can do that for you. And AI might be replacing this service or that service from some very big companies. This seems very niche and very focused on a Market that, that I don't imagine is high on lots of other big companies priority list, but nonetheless, one imagines this is a challenging time when you're sort of looking over your shoulder and seeing such a huge cultural shift coming at your business.
- [16:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think just to break that down a little bit, if you haven't been following the story of the news, you know, all these huge software as a service companies have been struggling on the stock market because the presumption is that AI is going to be able to replicate Salesforce or replicate whatever app you use in your business. And so the idea is, well, who's to say that, okay, they developed this concept, but who's to stay? In a couple years you won't just point your iPhone camera at a lamp and AI will do it for you without even you having to use a thing called Discover Market, which I think is a valid fear. And I think that's, that's a reasonable thing to be concerned about. I do think that, as you said, it's a niche company and also the data set is very niche. I don't think that first on anyone's list to disrupt is forehand e commerce business. But it's a reasonable fear and I think it's a fear for anyone who makes software in the design industry. I'm sure the studio designer and design manager are thinking about that. And are they concerned that designers are going to make their own project management software? Yeah, I'm sure they are a little bit, bit concerned. So that's sort of a longer story to keep our eye on. But in the meantime, I think I'm just interested to see how it plays out on the mean streets of High Point this spring.
- [17:38]
A
I am too. And High Point is just a few weeks away, so I'm looking forward to learning more about it and seeing it in action. I certainly take a lot of pictures at High Point. It would be great to have them better organized in some way and know what everything is that I'm shooting. So I look forward to using it myself and fooling around it and seeing how it works. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about coworking. Fred.
- [18:02]
B
This week, Business of Home's Jen Fernandez wrote a great story for the site exploring the past, present and future of designers working together in the same building, in the same office, at the same desk. Sometimes designer coworking, it's hot. Dennis, what's your experience with this phenomenon?
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A
Designer co working, you know, as someone who works from home and is so lonely at Times I long for a co working space, I wish that there were colleagues in my kitchen in the other room. When I walk in there, there aren't.
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B
Be careful what you wish for there. Be very, very careful. But yeah, yeah. So this is an interesting sort of phenomenon, right, Because I think there's always been this sort of notion that there should be coworking spaces that are for designers because, you know, having a physical office is a significant expense, you know, when you're just getting your firm off the ground, who has the money for rent? But it is really helpful to have an office a so that clients can come meet you and it feels more professional. And if you're working in close proximity to other designers, you can share a materials resource library. You can get tips, you can get feedback, you can get high fives when things go well. And so it's always seemed like it should make sense. But when the rubber hits the road, I sort of feel like there aren't tons of examples of it kind of working out. And I think Jen's piece really expertly, you know, looks at the situations where it sort of has worked out, situations where it hasn't, what the strengths and weaknesses of the phenomenon are. But I've always wondered why this isn't more of a thing.
- [19:33]
A
Well, exactly. And there are so many examples of. So, I mean, first of all, who doesn't want to go back to 2007 and Almont Yard, which Jen writes about, right, when Nathan Turner opened up his shop, and then suddenly he's inviting Peter Dunham and Joe Lucas and Catherine Ireland, and they're all opening spaces and having cocktail parties together and just hanging out with each other. Those sound like some of the best times in the history of the industry, frankly. Who doesn't want to go back to that? But even Fuego, which was a space that I used to love spending time in, and we've talked about it in the past, but it was a shared space that their designers would have a few desks around. And then there was a shared resource library and even a. A software system that people were using to run their back of house. And you got to be near and around some designers who were probably at roughly the same level of their career as you were in terms of just getting started. And there seemed to be a lot of great community that came out of that. What did you think?
- [20:42]
B
Yeah, well, so Fuigo was in New York. Allmont Yard, of course, was in la. One of the challenges with all these types of things is just that the real estate itself is expensive. So while designers need access to cheap real estate, the person actually putting the business together has to pay for it too. And so I think that was part of the challenge with Fwigo, and they were also doing a lot. They didn't just have this co working space, but Maury Riyadh had the software platform, as you mentioned, and there was just a lot going on. And I think it was a difficult business to put together. But I also think there is just this fundamental challenge. And Michael Diaz Griffith, the CEO of the Design Leadership Network, has a good quote in the story about how while it sort of makes sense, he just doesn't find that designers actually want it. Like you get to. You get to. I think it's, you get to a certain point in your career and you want your own space, you know, you want to invite your client, you know, to meet you in it, for it to be your space, you know, and you want to have your own materials. And I do think some designers feel protective of their IP and kind of feel like someone's looking over their shoulder and, you know, maybe copying them. I don't, I don't think it's. That's a big problem, but I could see that popping up, you know. So, you know, it's one of these things where it makes all the sense in the world, but then, you know, when you actually put it together, there are all these challenges. I think where it kind of works in an interesting way is a place like adac, for example, where it's not like there's a co working space, but there are these offices that the building has set aside in the building for designers to rent out. And they're near each other, but they're also near all their vendors who obviously welcome having customers in the building. So that is kind of an interesting sort of side quest to this whole phenomenon that I think is cool and I'd love to see it in New York. Why Charles Cohen needs to rent out those showrooms to somebody, so why not designers?
- [22:21]
A
Well, exactly. When you see how many designers are in ADAC and you go around and I was there not too long ago talking with people about this very issue, so many of the showrooms said, yeah, it's great. Suddenly I'm seeing so much more of these clients because they're officed right here, the designers said to me, yeah, it's so great. We just run downstairs, grab things for a meeting, and so much easier. I mean, and so there does seem to be a lot of advantage to that. I think people are still looking for Community. And I think that so many people around the D and D building for so many years, people wanted to have an address that was right near the D and D building, and so many design firms were housed around there. It would make so much sense. I think the cost per square foot is pretty expensive there, so I don't think it would work out from that perspective. Having been a former tenant at the D and D building was an awfully
- [23:14]
B
expensive place to be.
- [23:15]
A
And so I don't know. But listen, it would make sense on a lot of levels. Perhaps the new owner will figure that out, I don't know.
- [23:24]
B
Which is definitely happening. As we said earlier, it's a lock. It's a bet.
- [23:28]
C
Exactly.
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A
Yeah.
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B
One of the people that Jen profiled in this story is this business in Raleigh called Raleigh Workup, which is a new coworking facility, or I think it's the second location of an existing one that is. Is really focused around designers. And it feels like that maybe is in kind of the Goldilocks spot, where it's a market where there's a lot of designers. Especially, like there's more designers probably than there were 10 years ago. They're getting their careers off the ground. But real estate isn't so crazy expensive that it's probably, you know, the expenses are probably not through the roof. So I'd love to see more of those popping up around the country. It's always going to be a hard time in New York and la, and there's always going to be reasons why this doesn't work. But I really do applaud people who are figuring it out because it does make a lot of sense. And so we'll definitely keep an eye on this business in Raleigh and adac, and we'll certainly keep an eye on the D and D building for a variety of reasons.
- [24:17]
A
We will just keep coming back to the D and D building over and over. Absolutely. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about design media for Dwell. Last week, Kelly Faircloth explored why Shelter magazines haven't always been willing to disclose the cost of the beautiful homes that fill their pages. Turns out there's lots of reasons, Fred.
- [24:37]
B
Yes, exactly. Well, I mean, first of all, bravo to Kelly Faircloth for writing a great article for one of our sister publications. They're owned by the same media giant as Business of Home, so kudos to her. But I just loved it too, because as someone who has done some fairly deep dives into Design magazine history and looked at every single issue of AD over the Past million years. I was actually somewhat surprised by this. I sort of had always thought, oh, for the most part, design magazines would never publish costs. Why would they do that? And then, as she pointed out, House Beautiful has done this historically, and the kind of homes that they profile have really changed over the years. And there have been times when shelter magazines published real dollar values for a lot of the stuff that went into their pages. That's obviously not really the case so much anymore for a variety of reasons, but this is far from a fixed quality of the industry. I know you put something up on Instagram, asking designers and people in the industry how they felt about it. What was the consensus? Do people think shelter magazines should publish dollar signs? Should they not? What was the vibe out there on
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A
the Instagram world In the early responses? It was, oh, yes, absolutely, there should be more prices shared. And lots of people weighed in and said, oh, absolutely, because clients don't really have a good understanding of how much things cost. And then suddenly I started to get the pushback. Susanna from Chango weighed in and said, oh, no, no, no, no, because my clients don't want to share how much money that they've spent on their projects. And Federico, who's the president of Hickory Chair, quickly weighed in and said, dennis, what prices would you show? There's a what markup?
- [26:18]
B
What stocking dealer prices?
- [26:20]
A
Exactly which price? And that is part of the challenge in our industry is what price would you show? I think, think that there is a feeling, and many designers have expressed this to me, that they wish that clients were better informed about what things cost so that there wasn't this sticker shock conversation that happens initially in projects and sometimes can disrupt the flow. And to your point about shelter publications, we've talked about this in the past. There was this service role that shelter publications played often in the early days of shelter publications about educating readers about how much a home costs or how much your new washer and dryer is going to cost and all of that. And they got away from that over time.
- [27:08]
B
Yeah, I mean, I frankly just don't think that's coming back because not to bring up AI again, but I do think that people are turning to Google and increasingly the chatbots for that kind of information. So even if House Beautiful wanted to get back into the game of how much does a water heater cost? I think they would be facing an uphill battle with that particular problem. But the other thing you mentioned about clients not knowing how much things cost is it's such a real problem and it's one of these things where when you think about it kind of casually, you're like, oh, that should be solved. But then when you get into, well, here are the reasons why that's the case, you realize it is actually sort of a structural problem, because, as you said, is House Beautiful going to publish the. The retail price, which doesn't always exist for a trade product. Are they going to publish the designer price? How are they going to put it all together? Are they going to add the designer's markup when they publish the project? I doubt that this gets back to the debate we were having a few years back about public pricing for all these brands. They have the challenge of not knowing what price to show either. I think it would be a problem even if there was a lot of pricing information, because people don't shop for their homes that often. Often. But when you get into the weeds on this, you realize that this is not a problem. You just snap your fingers and make go away. Although I'll note that Dwell actually does publish some dollar values for the projects it publishes. So they're doing something.
- [28:28]
A
Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying about AI and Google. I still think that there's more of an effort that could be made to try and educate. I mean, so often when I talk to designers, they say, oh, well, it's on us. It's on us to inform our clients and educate about how much things cost. But then I talk to a whole other cadre of designers who say, yeah, I wish that my clients would show up having at least a vague sense of how much new windows cost or how much door hardware costs. And again, how would they. Why would they? But even to Federico's point about. So you're going to put up a sofa price. So you know what sofa. And is that. Is that the sofa. Com. Is that before the fabric? Is that. And what. You know, all of that. And I completely understand that. But I do think that there's still such a disconnect out there, even among relatively sophisticated clients, about how much things really cost. And I think there's an opportunity for the industry to do a better job of educating them. And Shelter Publications is one place to possibly look. Maybe they create special issues or maybe people break down costs in a different way. I think there's a fun way to do it to educate people.
- [29:45]
B
Well, this is the rare problem we're fetching about that we actually could play some small role in fixing. Because guess what? We're in Shelter Media, Dennis, believe it or not.
- [29:53]
A
Hey, wait a second. What if we worked for business of
- [29:56]
B
home where we could solve this? So we'll get cracking on that one and get back to you next week if we've solved it.
- [30:04]
A
Well, I mean, it's an opportunity. That's what I'm saying. And it's an issue that the industry is is still struggling with. And if only there was a business of home. Wait, okay, there is. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a makeover for the Denver Design District and how Target is betting on home to break its slump. But first, a quick break. Newport Brass, the premier maker of solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures, has recently expanded their product portfolio with ultra thin shower heads, additional lavatory offerings, and new kitchen extensions in their celebrated Taft and Haney collections. These expansions give designers and homeowners even more flexibility to create truly bespoke, luxurious spaces that are built to last. Visit newportbrass.com new to learn more this spring, Laloy heads to high Point Market with an exciting lineup of new introductions, including a debut rug collection featuring a groundbreaking new construction, along with a beautiful new season from Rifle Paper company. They're also hosting exclusive showroom events, including one with designer Amber Lewis. If you're attending High Point, book an appointment or connect with your Laloy sales representative@loloirugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com. And we're back. I'm joined now by architect and author who's got a new book out called the Dining Room, John Ota. John, thank you so much for joining me, Janice.
- [31:52]
C
I'm so excited to be here. We both like to eat.
- [31:56]
A
We have so many things in common and I'm so eager to get into many of them. One of the things that we have in common, John, and I love discovering this about you, is that you share my concerns about the dining room entirely a little bit on the ropes being phased out in the modern home. And you and I are just not going to let that happen, John.
- [32:17]
C
No way.
- [32:18]
A
No. So you and we'll get into the book and we'll get into the dining room and talk about all of it. But I want to take a step back and tell people a little bit about you and your earlier career in architecture and how you came to be writing the passionate plea and history of the dining room.
- [32:36]
C
Dennis, thanks very much. I'm just, I don't know, a normal guy who likes to eat
- [32:43]
A
who also happened to go and get A degree in architecture.
- [32:45]
C
I got a degree in architecture. I love architecture. I love buildings. I love history. So when I worked in architecture offices, quite often when you do a renovation job, for instance, I would have to go. Or a restoration job, I would have to go onto these magnificent houses. But, you know, I always found them to be designed to impress visitors. And the last room that I would always measure is the kitchen. The other walls in the house would have these gilded frame portraits, gilded mirrors, fabulous furniture, crown molding, elaborate wallpaper. And you get into the kitchen, and it's completely the opposite. It's very stark. There's no decoration at all. And the reason for that is because there's nobody who's going to visit the kitchen, and none of the guests are going to come into the kitchen. So there's no need to spend money or no need to impress anybody in the kitchen. But I always loved the kitchen when I got in there. And so that's how I got started writing about the kitchen and now the dining room. And so I wrote a little bit more and a little bit more, and pretty soon somebody said, well, maybe you should do a book. So I did a book on the kitchen. And then after I did the kitchen book, people were saying to me, you know, the dining room is dead. I thought, gee, you said what? That doesn't sound very good to me. I love the dining room. In my life, in my childhood, growing up, the dining room was so important for. For people to gather, get together, have deep conversations, tell stories and reveal ourselves. Just let down our garden, have these long, wonderful dinners, pass around the bottle of cognac. It just goes on and on into the wee hours of the night. And that's what the dining room has done for hundreds of years. It's been a place where people gather, and. And in fact, it's a place where so many profound things have happened because of those conversations and getting together. And it's had an impact on history and the development of the world. And you might say, oh, he's just saying that because he's written a book about it. But in this book, I write about those conversations and the importance of gathering in the dining room. And I feel like sometimes the dining room just doesn't get its respect. It's almost like it's the Rodney Dangerfield of rooms in the house. It doesn't get any respect. People just take it for granted. And then they say things like, the dining room is dead. Well, the dining room is not dead. It's just evolved. And so now it's evolved into this space where just because of a trend towards informality in our society, which I think is great, it's now the great room. So it's the great room. It's a combined dining area, kitchen area, living area, and the furniture, the place settings all have fallen into line with that trend towards informality. So my thinking and my feeling and what I express in the book is that the dining room has not been lost. It's just evolved.
- [36:18]
A
Well, and what you've done that's so interesting. And you mentioned your first book, the Kitchen, which came out in 2020, and you went and you visited a whole range of different fascinating kitchens around the. Around the country. You went and visited Elvis Presley's kitchen and Julia Child's kitchen. And you. And you really learned so much about those people through the kitchen that they had. And you share the history and the experience. And because you are you. You also took cooking courses and learned about the style that they would. The food that they would be eating and enjoying. And you went on to do that with the dance. Yes, Right. So you went on to visit Claude Monet's dining room, and you went to visit Frida Kahlo's dining room. And you brought to life, just as you were describing, so much of the history and what these rooms were used for and the importance of the kinds of conversations that were being had there, you went and visit George and Martha Washington's dining room. And I mean, there were. There were so many important figures whose dining rooms you came to write about and learn about and through that, tell the history of the importance of this room.
- [37:38]
C
Dennis, thank you very much. That's really fantastic. Thank you. That's exactly what I did. And I loved visiting all these dining rooms. They're so important. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. That's where people get together and gather and exchange ideas. And I also enjoyed cooking dishes that would have been served in those dining rooms, just so I get a better feeling of what it was like to eat in that dining room and to sit there with other people. For instance, I love the dining room of Claude Monet. Claude Monet, the artist. The impressionist artist. So Claude Monet lives. His house is in this unspeakably beautiful garden of rushing rivers and ponds and flowers and shrubs and beautiful blooms hanging over trees and trellises. It's like heaven. And then you're walking through the garden through these curving paths, and in the distance, through the trees and the flowers, you see the outline of a house, and you walk into the kitchen and the kitchen is this robin's egg blue with blue tiles and blue gingham curtains. And then right next to the kitchen, you step into his dining room, and it's fabulous. It's completely wrapped in this yellow, a bright yellow, which, when I step in, it's like being bathed in morning sunlight. It's really a great feeling of warmth and uplifting. Uplifting. You can imagine he would have these impressionist artists, his friends, over for lunch. And he loved to eat. Monet loved to eat. He did not do the cooking, but he had his own vegetable garden, a market garden that he paid special attention to, that he would grow his own vegetables and fruits. He had fruit trees. He loved to serve fish. And the fish would be pike, and it would be pike from his own rivers in the garden. He would go out and fish. Also he would serve duck and chickens that he would raise himself right next to the house. He loved having these fries, chickens. So he would make all these dishes like potofur and roast duck. And he also. One of his favorite desserts was tarte tatin with apples. Apples from his own orchard, from his own trees. So I found out about that, and I thought, you know what? I have to make a Claude Monet tart Tintin. And so I did. I took a cooking class in Paris with a Ferrandi pastry chef, and we had a great time making this tarte tatin in her kitchen. So I got the full feeling, I got the full experience of Claude Monet's yellow dining room.
- [41:03]
A
And what's so dear is that at the end of each chapter of the book, you write a letter to your wife, Franny, because you're doing this exploration, in part, to create a wonderful dinner party for Franny. And so part of all of this exploration, and at the end of your note with the Claude Monet, after the Claude Monet dining room visit, you say, if we have a Claude Monet inspired yellow dining room, we might never have another cloudy day. And I thought that was so sweet. And I love that the whole structure of you exploring these rooms and learning all about them and then sharing it through a letter with your wife.
- [41:48]
C
I should say that the real inspiration and purpose of these trips around to different dining rooms was that it actually starts on a very serious note. My wife had a stroke a couple of years ago, and it was quite a serious stroke. And I had never experienced anything like this before. And for the first 24 hours, I thought I might lose her. It was a terrible situation. And she's about 99% back to her former self, she has some aphasia. She has trouble finding words sometimes. But, you know, I have trouble finding words sometimes.
- [42:34]
A
Who doesn't? Right?
- [42:37]
C
So she's 99% back to her former self. And so we know we're lucky. It was a terrible time. So when she had a significant birthday coming up, up, I knew I had to have a birthday dinner and a new revitalized dining room. So I'm a little obsessive. So
- [43:00]
A
you think.
- [43:01]
C
So before I start to design a dining room, a new dining room, I want to know everything about the dining room. I want to know everything, and I want to use that information and cherry pick the best ideas from history and use that in my dining room.
- [43:22]
A
Well, so tell me what. You tell me what you learned, and tell me how you went on to incorporate it in your own dining room space.
- [43:30]
C
I would say that the most important thing I learned about the dining room, in all the history of the dining room, is light. And candlelight was very important in the design of the dining room. I mean, we have electricity now, but historically, people did not. And so they would have to light their room with candles or gas lamps. So, for instance, one of the most influential things that I saw when I traveled around was I went to the dining room of Downton Abbey in England, which is really Highclere Castle. But something that you don't see on the television program or in the films of Downton Abbey is that that the room is wrapped in this beautiful gold wallpaper that has a flock to it and some gold along with yellow in the dining room. And that really sets off the candlelight. And that's a theme that is ongoing in many historical dining rooms. So that really affected me a lot, as well as I'm sure in Monet's dining room, he would have had candlelight, and that yellow really would have set off the atmosphere of that dining room. Thomas Jefferson's dining room at Monticello is a bright yellow. So again, there'd be candlelight, and that would develop a feeling of warmth in the dining room. And many of the aspects of the dining table and the dining settings is a result of people wanting to reflect that candlelight. So with historical dishes or plates, or people have plates now, the outside of the edge is gold. And the reason for that gold edging, I mean, it's beautiful, and it shows that you can afford this kind of dishware, but it's also to catch the light.
- [45:36]
B
Light.
- [45:36]
C
It's also to reflect that candlelight. And even some of the food that people ate at the end of the 19th century when they had to use candlelight like jelly salads. People laugh at jelly salads now, but at the end of the 19th century. I love jelly salads. You're laughing, but I love them. But of course, aesthetic of a jelly salad is that it catches the light as well, so it lights it up like a stained glass window. And quite often a jelly salad, a gelatin salad would have been the delight of the evening and a great credit to the chef who made it. So I would say that one of the things that we might have lost is from the past is the importance of candlelight in the dining room. And, you know, candlelight can really change the feeling in a room. And you don't have to have a really elaborate, fancy, schmancy dining room like in a mansion or something. Even if you have a bachelor apartment or a small space. All you need to do is lower the light and light a few candles, and all of a sudden, the room becomes a really wonderful place to eat. And candlelight reduces the lines on people's faces. It sets a nice glow to your cheeks and your forehead, and then it casts shadows on the furniture in the room, and you get this whole different feeling. And it's just from candles and candlelight.
- [47:27]
A
Well, I mean, I think if you tell people that, it reduces their wrinkles. I think already you're selling them on the dining room right there. Eat by candlelight and you'll look younger. I think you sell that, and I think you'll get a lot more people. But to your earlier point about, okay, so society became a little bit more relaxed. We did away with. Right. Some of the. Some of the rituals, as you've taught me about Downton Abbey, for example, and that period in history where there were so many rules about who you could talk to, which direction you could face, depending on where the hostess was looking and who she was speaking to. And that's fascinating. And we've done away with perhaps everyone having to sit up quite as straight at dinner as they used to. But. But I wonder. Tell me a little bit about that and what you learned.
- [48:19]
C
Well, what I learned was the purpose of the dining room. It starts with Louis XIV in the 17th century. It's really about impressing people and showing off your wealth and your power. People love this style of eating, which was eating in the Russian style, where people. Where there would be many courses all coming out individually. And it required more staff, it required more plates, it required more courses. And that was a result of trying to impress people with how much Money you had that you could afford all of this. And then there were all these manners that you see in television programs like Downton Abbey. The purpose of those manners, ultimately, is that only the elite knew those manners and how to act. And they use dinner as a way to weed out the undesirables. If you went to dinner and you did not know that when the footman comes and offers you food that you had to yourself use the spoons to put it on your plate, you would just be sitting there. You did not pass the test to become part of the elite. So I would say I actually really love this trend that we have today of informality, because now I think it's unfortunate that in some ways we've gone a little bit too far with the informality. I mean, so now we have these great rooms, and they're designed for get people getting together and having a good time and eating. But. But sometimes it gets a little bit too. I find it gets a little bit too rambunctious with all these people moving around. And sometimes you cannot have those important discussions. I would say also that. And I write about this in the book, when we went to our friend's house, when we were out for dinner, we put on our good clothes because we want to say to the people who are inviting us over, we appreciate you go into all this trouble and cooking and cleaning up your house and making us feel welcome. So we want to put on our best clothes and dress up so that, you know, for us, this is an occasion and we really appreciate it. So I think that aspect of informality in our dining room today, it's too bad to lose that, as you wrote
- [50:59]
A
about it, was a place where important conversations were had. And I think that that's one of the things that jumped out at me so much in the book, was the kinds of conversations that were brought at the dinner table. Growing up in my house, and to your point, my family had candlelight dinner every night. We weren't being served by servants, John. But my mother always made sure that there were. That there were candles and there was lovely china. And often it was the only time where the family gathered and you heard about how everyone's day was. And if there was some important conversation to be had, that's where you'd have it. You'd have it at dinner where you knew everyone was going to be seated and together, at least for that hour or whatever it was, and you had everyone's attention and you could speak to the issues of the day.
- [51:53]
C
That's right. And what you're saying is dinner was an occasion.
- [51:57]
A
Yes.
- [51:58]
C
And one of the places where it's best illustrated as an occasion and a joyous occasion is in Frida Kahlo's dining room and her house in Coyoacan, outside Mexico City, in her Casa Azul. And there's so much that's made about Frida Kahlo. I mean, I love Frida Kahlo and her art. It's so moving and colorful and exuberant. But ultimately, Frida Kahlo, and I find it doesn't get out enough, is a Mexican nationalist. And she loved Mexico, and she wanted people around the world to really love Mexico, too. So it's quite fascinating that at the beginning of the 20th century, people in Mexico did not feel like their own culture was worthy. They would turn to Europe, specifically France, for their architecture, for their art, for their music. And Frida Kahlo wanted to change all that. She really wanted people to appreciate the indigenous culture of Mexico. So she used her dining room as a vehicle for showing the best of Mexico to people from around the world. And so she would invite people like Nelson Rockefeller, Gary Cooper, movie stars, Georgia o', Keeffe, artists. Trotsky came and ate in her dining room and then stayed longer in the house. But she used that dining room, her Mexican food, her Mexican clothing, and, of course, tequila to entertain these people, to show them the best of Mexico. So it would be a huge occasion. And people loved going to Frida Kahlo's dining room. They knew they were going to be treated very well. They knew they were going to have a great time and experience the best of Mexico. It was like the Studio 54 of Mexico. You wanted to be seen with Frida and Diego in their dining room.
- [54:09]
A
Well, it seems as though, Jon, I mean, I wonder, in wrapping all of this up, my hope is that people will have dining rooms and have wonderful meals and have friends over for dinner and have serious conversations with their children along the way in their dining rooms, all of that. But what do we want to say to people about why the dining room shouldn't go away, why dining rooms aren't part of history, but in fact are part of the future?
- [54:40]
C
I would say that the purpose is for gathering, and that's what this room does in the architecture of the house. It is the room where we gather. It is the room that brings us together. And so dinner doesn't have to have the perfect food, it doesn't have to have the perfect chairs. We don't have to wear the perfect clothing. The most important thing about gathering in the dining room is the people around us and who's around the table. You know, we spend a lot of money renovating our kitchens, and we spend a lot of money doing our bathrooms. And people say the dining room is dead. But what a sad thing. If the dining room is dead. Where else are we going to have these dinners where we gather and have these long, wonderful meals together? So I just want to impress upon people that you don't have to have a perfect dining room. It's just getting together, light some candles, make some, you know, nice food, and let's get together.
- [55:50]
A
Let's get together. Let's have more community. Let's eat in the dining room. Let's make some of the recipes that John shares in the back of the book. And let's appreciate the role that the dining room plays, has played throughout history, but also will continue to play in bringing people together. John, I'm thrilled that Franny has made such a remarkable recovery, and I'm touched by this whole story. And I've just been so delighted to meet you and to speak with you about all of this. I encourage people to pick up the book. It's a great. You'll learn a lot. Both of the books, frankly, the kitchen and the dining room, they go together brilliantly. But I'm so grateful to you for making the time to talk with me about it.
- [56:33]
C
Thank you so much, Dennis. It's been wonderful. Thank you.
- [56:42]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye forever. Caught your eye?
- [56:50]
B
A couple things caught my eye. First of all, quints always catches my eye. I think I might have mentioned this last week, but quince just raised $500 million with, you know, that's a lot of money. I mean, obviously it is, but that's a lot of money. And their valuation right now is $10 billion. I'm kind of like stalking them on LinkedIn. And so every day I see, like, some new product manager getting hired, and there's a lot of people at home going over the there. So maybe I'm just trying to make my own prediction come true that Quints is going to be a company to watch this year, but they are raising money, they are spending money, and they are definitely playing in home more and more than ever. So I think, you know, one to watch. And $500 million definitely catches the eye. The other thing is not really caught my eye, but sort of more of a prediction. We were, we were kind of talking earlier about how, you know, do, does every software company really have to, you know, worry about AI disrupting them? That's totally possible. But one thing I think is going to happen in the shorter term is that I think designers and design businesses are going to start coming up with like fun little gimmicky apps using Claude code. I've been playing around with myself a lot more recently, kind of figuring it out and it's incredibly powerful. You can build all kinds of weird little things and I've seen some people posting about this on LinkedIn, so I'm not, I don't think Studio Designer is going away tomorrow because of Claude code. I think more likely is that designers and people in the industry are going to come up with interesting little software solutions that they never would have been able to pay for before because hiring a program was so expensive. But now that they can basically do it themselves, we're going to see all kinds of interesting little DIY projects. I'm really excited to see what all that stuff looks like. Yeah, we'll cut you out this week, Dennis.
- [58:26]
A
Love that positive take and I hope that that is what happens, that more creativity is unleashed as a result of all of this. Hey, speaking of AI, what, what caught my eye was a couple of things related to that. But, but Ryan Serhant, who is one of the, one of the big media stars in the real estate world, had an interesting experience himself with chat GPT in that he was just about to close a 50 million dollar deal. And it turns out both the buyer and seller in the deal decided at the 11th hour that they would consult ChatGPT about the deal. And apparently ChatGPT told, told both of them not to do the deal. No, don't, don't sell and no, don't buy was the message back. And, and Ryan came on Instagram to say, you're not going to believe this, but here's what happened. And luckily since then it sounds like he's talked them both down in part because of everyone's response to him posting about it and what they later learned. But he explained to both of the clients that, hey, listen, you know what ChatGPT loves to do agree with you. So if you tell it that you're concerned about selling at this price, it's going to go, oh, you're right, you shouldn't sell at that price. And if you're concerned that it's too
- [59:45]
B
expensive, oh you're right.
- [59:46]
A
That does sound too expensive. So that's what happens. And a huge lesson for everyone out there because we've talked about this a great deal. We know designers are being shopped left, right and center right. You wrote about it, Fred, and we've certainly talked to plenty of designers now who have shared that. Interestingly, Mr. Steinberg, who works for Compass, who we also quote, Leonard Steinberg, who we quote a great deal on the show, he also spoke out about AI and said he found it wanting, very wanting. He said he went on and entered some basic information because he's actually in the market for a house and he thought it was ridiculously facile and didn't, didn't tell him anything you already knew. I'm thinking, well, of course it didn't tell you anything you didn't already know because you're a savvy and sophisticated realtor. But he did not have kind words for, for AI. Basically both of them did say that it's intelligence that's already out there. And of course it's not going to know everything that, that both of those very sophisticated realtors know about the market. But it gives you very basic information. Truth be told, many people wrote into me and said, well, I've actually learned a great deal from, from AI and consulting ChatGPT in their decisions about buying and selling a home.
- [61:05]
B
So it gave us a mteg. I think it's, it's, it's neither one nor the other.
- [61:09]
A
No, I completely, I completely agree. It was just, it was, it was fascinating to see those stories in, in real time and a 50 million dollar deal blowing up because of chat GBT definitely caught my eye. The other thing that caught my eye, just because we just came on the air, Fred, just as the Federal Reserve was announcing that yet again it wasn't going to change its interest rate policy. But a growing concern about inflation in the market. And I think many are starting to think it's going to be very challenging for the Federal Reserve to navigate the next few months. And I think people are getting less optimistic about a whole bunch of rate cuts coming anytime soon because inflation does seem to be sticking around and certainly hundred dollar a barrel oil is not helping the inflation picture. We'll probably talk about this more next week, but it was definitely spooking the market a little bit as the market closed and not thinking that the Federal Reserve was going to come rushing to the market's defense. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop. Visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.