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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: John Edelman's quest for good plastic. Plus: Schoolhouse and Food52 cut deep
01:01:36
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, John Edelman joins the show to share some updates on Heller.
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- [00:00]
Dennis Scully
Foreign. This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be checking in with John Edelman about the latest with Heller. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including layoffs at Food52, a new design district in Charleston, and a look back at how Covid has changed the industry. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:33]
Fred Nicholaus
Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.
- [00:35]
Dennis Scully
How you doing?
- [00:36]
Fred Nicholaus
I'm doing good. How's LA treating you?
- [00:37]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's a beautiful day out here in la, although I wouldn't know because I'm in this room, Fred, recording the Thursday show.
- [00:42]
Fred Nicholaus
So, yeah, sorry to keep you chained to your computer. To discuss the design industry's biggest news. Listeners should know Dennis is in LA to do an event, a very important event. I think it'll be over by the time the show airs, but do you want to quickly shout it out for.
- [00:58]
Dennis Scully
The love of home? That's right. Big fundraiser, fire relief fundraiser that we're doing at the Pacific Design Center.
- [01:05]
John Edelman
And you're right, it will have already.
- [01:07]
Dennis Scully
Happened by the time this show comes.
- [01:09]
Fred Nicholaus
Out, but I bet people can sneak in a donation after the fact. So if you're so inclined. Yeah, exactly. So before we get started, I have to quickly ask. So listeners may not know this, but Dennis Gully is a very natty dresser. Always, very always dressed in a sport coat and a pocket square. What do you have, a California wardrobe? What's. Are there shorts?
- [01:30]
Dennis Scully
Well, you know, there aren't shorts, thank goodness. But I did try and think of what could be a little bit lighter, a little bit looser here in la. I was noticing at breakfast all the guys were kind of in jeans and high tops. So I feel like I need to run and get some Air Jordans, perhaps before I make more appearances.
- [01:50]
Fred Nicholaus
We'll see if those come together. Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode, A conversation with interior designer Nick Olson, wunderkind of the early aughts, but now a mature designer with a mature design business. What'd you think?
- [02:03]
Dennis Scully
Indeed. It was so fun to catch up with Nick. I've long been an admirer of his career, and it was fun for him to share his early origin stories and to catch up with how everything is going for him. A really enjoyable conversation. What did you think?
- [02:21]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, one thing that jumped out to me is just that Nick was very loud and proud. Like, I'm a decorator, I am not an interior Designer. I'm an interior decorator. This is so interesting because that really, we've talked about this on the show a couple of times, but that term can be sort of loaded and charged. And it's really changed over the years. And Nick is an example of a younger. I was gonna say younger designer, but a younger decorator who really embraces the term decorator and doesn't see anything kind of less than about it. So I thought that was a small but really interesting component of hearing a story.
- [02:54]
Dennis Scully
I agree. And it seems like it has become a hot button issue again, this distinguishing between these two. And Nick points out that of course, many of the people he so much looks up to, whether it's Albert Hadley or even Miles Red, who he worked for for many years, proudly call themselves decorators. And so he's sticking with that. As I say, it's a hot button issue. I am taking a little bit of heat for it myself in some of the conversations I'm having with some people, but I feel we want to hear from all voices.
- [03:26]
Fred Nicholaus
So, yeah, only the tough questions here on the Thursday show. Well, it was a fun one.
- [03:31]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. No, no, no. I hope people will enjoy it. He's a good conversationalist, our Nick Olson. So it's a fun show. All right, we're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first, a quick break.
- [03:45]
John Edelman
This podcast is sponsored by Jaipor Living. Since 1978, Jaipor Living's mission has been to revolutionize the rug making industry by transforming traditional weaving into a lifeline for women artisans. Each handmade rug is a love story from one of over 40,000 artisans. Weaving rugs at Jaipur Living is not just a craft. It's a lifeline that empowers artisans to unleash their creativity, enabling them to achieve dignity, independence, and a purposeful life experience. This Soulful art@jaiporliving.com Jaipur Living, honoring the makers, transforming lives.
- [04:33]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. First up, layoffs at Food52. Fred.
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Fred Nicholaus
Yes. Last week, the digital media brand announced that it had reduced its staff by around 40%. CEO Erica Baden says that the company will drastically cut back its drop shipping marketplace and focus on Schoolhouse, which of course, it owns. Big, big cuts.
- [04:53]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. I'm so sorry about this one. I'm such a fan of the founders of this company, and we had them on the show years ago when they first got their great big investment when the company was valued at $100 million, if I recall, and it's weathered quite a few storms since then. Should we look Back on the timeline of all of this. Fred.
- [05:16]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, how did we get here? So Food52 was founded as, I guess a recipe blog, had this formula of doing what is now a fairly common play, content with commerce. So they'd publish great recipes and they'd include a link to buy flatware or cooking supplies, largely aimed at home cooks. And it was very successful, was a recipe, no pun intended, that really worked. And it was so successful that they raised an absolute gobsmacking amount of money. In 2019, they raised $83 million from the Chernin Group, a media investment company. And then just a couple years later, they basically doubled that investment, which was money that went to buying the west coast brand Schoolhouse. So, you know, that's a, that's an absolutely huge amount of money. It's over $160 million that went into the brand as of 2021. But then ever since then it's been this real kind of sad story of cuts. I think when they bought Schoolhouse, they had over 300 employees. With all the companies combined. They also bought Dansk, the tabletop company. Then 2024, they had cut 45 employees. But at that point they were already down to around 200 people. This most recent 140 to 90 people. So you're looking at a company that only four years ago had over 300 employees, is now down to 90. It's been a real sad tale over there for the past few years.
- [06:39]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. And what do we make of it all? I mean, as you say, it was this great concept for a hot minute, all this content and all of the fun products. And when they came on the show originally, Amanda Hesser and Meryl Stubbs, the founders, they were talking about, about how the community helped to develop this product that they would sell. They all kind of weighed in on what was the best apron and what was the best tools. I mean, and all of these things became best selling items. And they were really leaning into that heavily. And it seemed like during COVID people couldn't get enough. Everyone was at home making sourdough bread and all of that. And then like what it all just.
- [07:25]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it was just one thing. I think it was a lot of little things. You know, as you said, the content meets commerce thing was really powerful for a long time. And it, especially during COVID and it really helped them raise money at this crazy valuation. But over time, you know, this idea of, you know, putting up a recipe, having affiliate links, doing drop shipping around, that became a very common play A lot of media brands started doing it, a lot of influencers started doing it. And suddenly Food52 isn't the only kid on the block. And at the same time, of course, the COVID home boom is ending, which I'm sure really impacted them. You know, Google and Meta stopped sending traffic to publishers the way it once had, which I'm sure really impacted them. So that's all kind of like the weather. That made things a little bit difficult. And then lastly, I just think there was internal dysfunction. You know, I've done some reporting on this. I've spoken to former Food52 employees. They all talked about how, you know, the people in the company are pulling in different directions. Big decisions didn't get made. You know, there were new priorities, you know, every month. And even the CEO, Erica Baden, was talking about how there was big technological upgrades they just never did and needed to finally implement. And, you know, Alex Bellows, the West Elm veteran, was the CEO for a while, and people described his time there as very tumultuous. Schoolhouse, which had operated sort of happily and profitably as an independent company, didn't like being tinkered with. They signed Food52, signed an enormously expensive lease in Brooklyn's Navy Yard. They have a giant office there that I imagine now is fairly empty. I'm sure they're looking to get out of that. So, you know, I know that's a lot, but I do think all of it contributed in some way to where the company is now. You know, and where they are now is that they really want to focus on Schoolhouse. You know, that seems to be the company that's the part of the company that's kind of the viable. Go ahead business. The problem is that they've just cut it so much that. Yeah, I don't know.
- [09:13]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, exactly. I mean, Schoolhouse seems to be the big focus and completely moving away from all of the Food52 related merchandise, it seems. And I don't know how, as you and I were talking about earlier, I don't know how they. They run and grow Schoolhouse in a meaningful way on such a lean staff.
- [09:33]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, completely. And I mean, on that note, Ad Week reported on Friday about these layoffs. Now they have a new story Talking about how Food52 in an internal meeting, was discussing essentially shuttering Schoolhouses Portland manufacturing operation and, you know, using the brand, but relying on outside manufacturers to make its product. You know, I don't know if that's 100% something that they are going to do, but it seems like it's on the menu. And if that does happen, it would just be really too bad. When Food52 acquired Schoolhouse, it was, I think, close to 200 people. It was this kind of spunky little engine that could great design American manufacturing story. And to sort of see it kind of gutted this way is really just too bad and kind of a cautionary tale about what can happen when you get tens of millions of dollars of private equity money into the picture and something goes badly in the wrong direction. Now, we should say that the CE CEO Erica Baden has talked about this, the struggles here, and she put up a podcast earlier this week Talking about how Food52 is a great brand that a lot of people trust and Schoolhouse has a future and who knows what'll happen. But I don't know. Right now it's very much answer unclear. Ask again later. It's not at all clear to me what happens. And yeah, I'm just hoping for the best because there were so many great people who worked there over the past couple years who were laid off on Friday. And I'm hoping that for those who remain, the next chapter is a happier one because it's been rough times over there.
- [11:10]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no, no, I agree. It has been rough for some time. And I too, am just such a huge fan of the brands and a huge fan of the founders. And I'm sorry that this is all how it's ended up. As you say, every time I use that Foo52 spatula, it makes me smile, Fred. So I'm particularly close to this one. But moving on, let's talk about South Carolina, because this week developer Jamestown announced a plan for a new design district in Charleston. Located in the city's Navy Yard, Jamestown plans to dedicate 150,000 square feet of showroom space to the area. So far, Schumacher and Kravet have already signed leases, and I think this is an exciting one. What do you think, Fred?
- [11:50]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, well, I've actually never been down there, but you have. You know, one thing that the press release pointed out is that there's already a few design brands in this facility, including our friends Urban Electric, Dave Dawson Fame. So you went down there to visit Dave and check out this facility. What's it like?
- [12:07]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I was visiting with Urban a while back and Dave Dawson was telling me about the grand plans for this. It's interesting because it very much was, at least the last time I was there, an old naval yard. So there wasn't a lot of construction. Not a lot had been built up. So you had to use your imagination for what this was going to, to look like. And obviously it was a multi year project. So it'll be interesting to see how all of this evolves and what it means for designers and perhaps them not having to travel so far to have all of these resources. Right, because in the past it was a big trip.
- [12:48]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think like, it's long been like a pain point in the industry in the Southeast, which is that, you know, am I going to make the five hour, four hour drive to ADAC in Atlanta? I do think there's clearly an opportunity to set up a hub outside of Atlanta for designers in the Southeast. And I think Charleston, every year that goes by, there's some cool new design business that pops up in Charleston. I know a few years back, Rebecca Atwood moved to Charleston and we had coffee a couple days ago and she was talking about how great it is there and what a design scene there is. So I'm sure that there's a lot of opportunity. I do think these things are always risky. Right now they've got a few anchor tenants. I'm sure they've got some more lined up. Who knows what it'll be like in the long term. But I do think, I think it's kind of exciting to have some good news on the design center design district front because it feels like there's just been so much turbulence and what with the Cohen situation feeling so unsteady. It's nice to have some investment in a new design area and I'm hopeful that it can be a winner.
- [13:48]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, I agree. And there's so much happening in the south, as we've talked about, and it's just an area where people appreciate and desire design in such a meaningful way. So I'm excited to go visit. It sounds like they're going to have a great rooftop restaurant, which I'm looking forward to, too. So lots of, lots of reasons to come to Charleston. Get my room at the Dewberry ready. Okay, moving on. Let's talk about news from the world of real estate. Fred.
- [14:14]
Fred Nicholaus
Last week we found out that Compass was in talks to acquire Berkshire Hathaway's Home Services of America, a deal that would consolidate two of the country's largest real estate brokerages. And this comes just on the heels of another big merger. Last week, we talked about how Redfin was being acquired by Rocket Mortgage. Seems like there's just so much consolidation in real estate. Right?
- [14:34]
Dennis Scully
Seems like there's so much consolidation and you always have to be a little bit nervous when Warren Buffett is parting with one of the companies that he owns. Rarely does he sell off an asset. And so you have to feel, does this tell you just how challenging the real estate business is that Warren Buffett is? You know what? Yeah, you can have this one. You can have this asset. Sure, take it.
- [14:58]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. It's so funny because I was looking at the history of Warren Buffett selling companies. I think the last major company he sold was a newspaper company. So that strongly indicates the health of the industry that he's selling off. But, yeah, of course, I mean, Home Services is the name of the Warren Buffett's real estate brokerage company. And they have not been having a great few years. They were kind of wrapped up in the big NAR settlement where brokers and brokerages were accused of price fixing. And it was a big antitrust lawsuit. Actually talked about it last year. We'll talk about it a little bit more in just a minute. But they were on the hook for $250 million. And that really eats into their profit margin. But just more broadly, every brokerage is kind of hurting. There's no brokerage that's doing great right now because the housing market is still very stubbornly frozen. And people who buy and sell homes or people help people buy and sell homes are not doing great at the moment. So this is a good time to sell a business that's not doing that great.
- [15:58]
Dennis Scully
It definitely seemed as though this was one area of the economy where Warren Buffett said, you know what? It looks like it's gonna be challenging for years to come. And so rather than going the other way, the man has how many billions, hundreds of billions in cash that he could have plowed into this business. And clearly he sees this as a long term challenge. So I think that tells us a lot. I think the consolidation in the industry will continue. As you say, Rocket. And Redfin is just one of many such consolidation deals that we'll no doubt be hearing about. And part of what hasn't changed very much as we'll talk about, Warren Buffett's company was the last to come into the agreement around the NAR settlement. And he was, I think, sort of waiting for all of the chips to fall. And what we're hearing is that not too much has changed as a result. Yes.
- [16:50]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. Just to sort of recap this, so in 2023, actually two years ago at this point, there was a big ruling in a lawsuit that essentially changed the underpinning of the way that real estate Brokers do their business. So historically, the way it worked is if you wanted to sell your house, you had to agree to pay the broker who was representing you a 6% commission of the sale price. And then that real estate broker would in turn work with the buyer's broker and split it with them. So give them 3%. Sometimes the number is a little bit smaller, but it was usually around 5 to 6%. And there are lots of problems with that, namely that the broker who are buy, you know, the buy and sell side were kind of colluding sort of softly between each other, which potentially made it more expensive to buy and sell a home. And so there was a big lawsuit around that. And eventually a judge agreed that, yes, this is price fixing, this is monopolistic behavior. You guys have to cut it out. And all the big brokerages, including, you know, Warren Buffett's, had to pay, you know, tons of money in this lawsuit that they were wrapped up in. And of course, the nar, the. The national association of Realtors was the biggest loser in all of this. And so there was all these think pieces at the time, and we certainly talked about it, and we speculated that this might forever change the way that homes are bought and sold. But as one of the New York Times reporters who broke a lot of these stories wrote about Deborah Kamen in an article last week, not actually that much has changed, and that brokers are still kind of finding ways around this ruling and still kind of colluding. I guess maybe that's too strong a word, but working with the buy and sell side or finding ways to work together. And she pointed out this example of this guy who tried to sell his home himself, and the real estate brokers in his town kind of worked against him, and it turned into kind of a social media flame war. And, yeah, it just seems like movement has been very slow on that front.
- [18:30]
Dennis Scully
It's interesting. And as you say, I mean, and Deborah, we've had her on the show a couple of times, and she talked about the fact that she certainly thought that there were plenty of reasons for cost savings to be found. They haven't materialized. What does seem to have materialized is a lot of brokers dropped out of the industry. There was a staggering figure that came out from multiple sources last year showing this huge percentage of brokers had one transaction or zero transactions last year. And so it does seem in all of this consolidation, we're going to see fewer and fewer, perhaps brokers sort of sticking it out and riding through this difficult time. But it also shows, you that structure, that 6% structure is pretty hard to change. And there weren't a lot of incentives among the community to really make meaningful change.
- [19:25]
Pilar Velades
So.
- [19:25]
Dennis Scully
Interesting.
- [19:26]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, it just kind of goes to show you how, like, much culture plays a role. You know, it's like.
- [19:30]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I think at the time when we talked about it, so many brokers were so skeptical and thought that anyone was saying that costs were going to come down, that people were just being naive if they really believed that. And I think, interestingly, that's how it's played out. I remember Leonard Steinberg at the time just said, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. This will in no way change the cause structure. And it seems, at least for the time being, he was absolutely right. So interesting.
- [20:01]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good point. Although it's, you know, as the article pointed out, it's not like the cult, you know, it's not like these things change overnight necessarily. I think what has to come along is a better mousetrap. You know, someone has to actually leverage all this AI that we're all so scared of or excited about, depending on the day, you know, and turn it into a tech solution that allows, you know, selling your home to be. Be effectively done or buying a home to be effectively done and coming up with a solution that people trust. And maybe that is a pipe dream. I don't really know. But I do think that the amount of money that we spend on real estate transactions in the US Far dwarfs other countries where we spend so much more on this stuff. And I do think that it would be nice if some of that money could go to designers. Some of that money could go towards making the home that you buy beautiful and not just having an enormous, expensive, empty white box. So that's my pipe dream. I'll cross my fingers that it comes true one of these years.
- [20:52]
Dennis Scully
No, that's the position that we're always taking. And as you say, I mean, maybe the super apps that Zillow is trying to build and Rocket and Redfin are trying to build, maybe those will be what finally brings the cost down. But it certainly seems like it has years to play out yet. Moving on, Fred, we're gonna talk about COVID It's been five years since the pandemic started here in the U.S. fred, you wrote for the site this week a story looking back at, at all the ways that Covid has changed the design industry.
- [21:22]
John Edelman
Has it, Fred?
- [21:23]
Dennis Scully
Has it changed the design industry?
- [21:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, it's interesting because we were Talking about this before we hit record on the show. And your position is not one thing has changed. I'm curious, do you really think nothing has changed?
- [21:33]
Dennis Scully
No, no, no, I don't think that. I just think it's. What I think is interesting is how much we might have thought was going to be different years ago, when you and I were doing shows every week, living through it and talking about everything the companies were doing at the time to create virtual showrooms and to create all of these tools and how we imagined the world would be so different, and it doesn't feel all that different.
- [22:02]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, the present always has a way of feeling normal after a minute, so I know what you mean. But it's funny that you mention that, because if we can rewind all the way back to, let's say, 2019, if you listen to episodes of the podcast from that time, you will hear loud police sirens in the background. And it's because our studio is on 29th street in business of Home's former offices. And we always recorded the podcast in person, and now we almost never do. And we don't have that office anymore because for a long time we didn't have an office. So at least one thing has changed, which is the way the business of Home podcast is recorded. But I think, you know, to that point, a lot of that virtual stuff doesn't exist anymore. You know, there was this. There was all these ideas where we're now virtual show houses going to be the norm, or they're going to be a supplement to the norm. I don't think there's really been a virtual show out since 2023, and even that felt like a little bit of an outlier at the time. You know, virtual showrooms. I still think people do do visualizations of their showrooms here and there, but it's certainly not the. You know, it has not become the norm. Like, not every showroom has a virtual showroom at this point. And, you know, so many things like that. I mean, if you remember Instagram Lives where it was like every event will be replaced by a series of Instagram lives. That's obviously not. Not the case.
- [23:12]
Dennis Scully
Mercifully, that hasn't happened.
- [23:14]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Nothing is worse than the shame of popping it into an Instagram Live with two people in it feeling like he can't leave, just leaving it on. But I do think the industry has changed a lot of ways, and virtual stuff, I think, is part of it. As I was saying, we record the podcast virtually, but a lot of designers, I think, do a lot More stuff virtually now. I mean, the Expert, I think, is a great example of a business that could have existed before COVID but didn't. And Covid was the catalyst that led a lot of designers to explore doing these virtual consults as a way to sort of make money on the side and to work with clients who don't have quite the budget for the Phil McGilla. But you don't think so?
- [23:50]
Dennis Scully
No, no, no. And listen, I mean, again, I'm sort of tongue in cheek, joking about. Nothing has changed, obviously. I mean, yes, the virtual tool has been tremendous for designers, for the industry, for the business of home podcast. It's made so many things possible. But what I thought was interesting related to that for a hot minute when everybody was on Zoom, everybody was saying, oh, well, I'm not gonna need to travel as much. I'm not gonna need to go on all those sales calls and go to all those meetings and visit all those showrooms where I've got product or designers talking about, oh, am I really gonna go to shows? And in an interesting way, I feel like designers became even more passionate about going to trade shows as a result of being deprived from that time. When you see people in Paris, they are so thrilled to be there. This is just like everything that they wanted. That whole notion of revenge travel that was born out of everybody being locked down for a while. I think you see that so much in the early days of the High Point shows after lockdown, people were so happy to have that community again.
- [24:58]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I think we all remember just how much we missed being in person and it became such a valuable thing. But on the other other hand, I do think a lot of the big fairs haven't fully recovered the audience that they lost during COVID I know it's a little bit far afield, but if you look at imm cologne, they canceled 2025 because of all the audience they lost during COVID I know that's Europe, not here. And there was, of course, that big story about how Salone, the big festival, was losing people to the sort of smaller satellite fairs. So I do think there was some attrition during COVID whereas I think you sort of see the rise of these sort of smaller events that. That are a little more communal, a little more intimate. But yeah, you are right. It's certainly not like we're all, you know, beaming in via hologram to look at the Century showroom. That definitely has not happened.
- [25:46]
Dennis Scully
When I look at, like, what feels really different in the in the industry as a result of COVID Interestingly, I think our earlier story about the Charleston design district is one of the things that I think has been an outsized impact from COVID is just how much the geography has changed in terms of important markets. And I think that's actually very significant and tied to Covid.
- [26:08]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. No, Texas for sure. I mean, all the people, like fleeing the big coastal hubs definitely is a big part of the story. Nashville getting bigger. I mean, you can even see a situation where it was like Austin got bigger, then peeled back a little bit. So we've already been through two cycles around from sort of the shift to leaving these big coastal cities. So I think that's something that's definitely changed. I think kind of like for me, just to sort of close the conversation, one of the big open questions is, is there was a lot of talk during COVID around how this is gonna reorient Americans obsession towards their homes. So for the past 20 years, we've all been obsessed with work and we've been traveling and we've been going to parties, but now we're gonna focus on the home. This is gonna be the decade of home. This will have a lasting impact on American psyches around the importance of home. And what we've seen since the sort of COVID boom is over is actually a huge drop off in and purchasing for home goods. But I sort of think that's largely explained by the fact that just people had bought all the stuff that they needed during COVID So the big question for me is that once we get past that sort of four, five, six year cycle, when some of that stuff starts to wear out a little bit, are we going to see the same continued elevation of the importance of home that we saw during COVID or was that just sort of a flash in the pan? And that's a big open question. I don't know if Americans are going to as forever be obsessed with their homes as they were during 2021 and 2022, but what do you think?
- [27:30]
Dennis Scully
No, I think it's a great point. And I think that the lasting impact of the outdoor space remains. And clearly, and we've talked about that on the show, that part is still very strong. But you're right, we got so giddy with the decade of home and thinking that this was going to be the golden age. And it certainly hasn't felt like a golden age for the last last several years. Don't even look at that price chart of RH Fred, because it is down Hard and wayfair too. So, I mean, it certainly hasn't been a golden age. I will be so curious if we get through this. Higher mortgage rate, slow housing market, what it looks like on the other side. But I fear that we're in for some tough sledding for a while to come. So that golden age of home, I don't know if it's just around the corner. And speaking of America's love of home, Fred, we're gonna move on to talk about kitchen islands for the Wall Street Journal.
- [28:26]
Fred Nicholaus
This week, Maria Neumann spoke with nine homeowners who were ditching their center islands and swapping out for classic kitchen tables. This is Gail Davis's revenge here. Dennis, I know you reached out to designers on Instagram about this. I'm hoping that she, she was the first one to reply to your poll.
- [28:44]
Dennis Scully
Well, Gail Davis is indeed feeling vindicated, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, yes. I joked about how poor Gail had to practically go into the witness protection program after her own kitchen was published without an island and the world just exploded. How can you live like that? What's wrong with you? But Gail felt like she was in the right. She felt like she had Sophie Donaldson's Uncommon kitchen book behind her and, and she felt like more people should have a nice table and some chairs and.
- [29:19]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [29:20]
Dennis Scully
And now it seems like at least everyone they spoke to for this article seems to agree. Right?
- [29:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Nine homeowners, which is definitely a statistically meaningful number if there ever was one. Yeah, I mean, I do think that there is a little bit of a movement towards, you know, away from the sort of hyper prescribed built in kitchen where every element is bolted into the wall. And Sophie Donaldson, formerly of Business of Homes Parish, has a book on common kitchen, all about these kitchens that are very kind of European, a little bit more composed of furniture that you can pull out of the floor. So I think it's a little bit of a movement. I don't know if it's trend sweeping the nation though. I still think there's a lot of support for islands out there. But what did designers say to you on Instagram, Dennis? I'm curious to hear what they'd say.
- [30:07]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's interesting because a lot of designers talked about the fact that it was challenging to have the conversation with clients because it seemed a little unconventional Atelier Armbruster talked about this very issue that she's actually tried to present, not having an island to clients. But they, they, it sort of makes them nervous on some level. And, and whether it seems unconventional or Whether, as we've talked about in the past, the whole issue of resale or thinking about what will be the next person think. But interestingly enough, several people weighed in feeling quite strongly that, no, you need to have an island, particularly if you have children. So one of my favorite follows actually on Instagram is Mary Orton Scudolari, who is absolutely hilarious. And her coverage of home is always fun and entertaining. She, interestingly enough, is redoing her kitchen with none other than Jean Stouffer, former guest of the show and kitchen designer extraordinaire. And apparently the first order of the day on the redesign is to get that island back. Because Mary has had numerous children over the past few years and you want to have those kids on a level surface where you are when you're working in the kitchen. And that was a big issue. And Parker Bowie Larson weighed in with essentially the same notion that if you have kids, an island is actually just so much easier to clean up and there's all sorts of organizational benefits to it. So it was there went the romance for those darn kids, right?
- [31:44]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, it's funny because like one of the people in the Wall Street Journal article said that they actually wanted a table specifically because they had kids, because they felt that like their little kids gyrating on one of those bar stools and falling off and dropping knives from a four foot height was dangerous enough in itself. So. So I think that issue can cut, no pun intended, both ways. I don't know. I mean, I have kids, I don't have a kitchen island because my kitchen is too small. So it's maybe a separate issue. I do think it is interesting though, just to realize that the kitchen island is not some invention that was handed down from the ancient Greeks and has always been in the American kitchen. It's a relatively new obsession. And I think that I had an interview a while back with Karen Williams. I think she's not the proprietor or certainly a leader at St. Charles Kitchens here in New York. And she was talking about how, you know, the 90s was the rise of an island and you had whole archipelagos of kitchen island, three part islands. And so it is something that's relatively recent and I don't see a reason why it always has to be there. But I do think there is, you know, frankly, a lot of utility in them. And I think that, you know, if you want a kitchen island, I don't think you should feel bad for or off trend for having one. But I also don't think it should be the default And I think we should all collectively owe Gail Davis an apology on that one.
- [33:00]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. This is Gale Davis moment, and I'm happy for her and I want her to drink this in. All right. Finally, some sad news. Pilar Velades, design journalist and Shelter magazine veteran, has passed away. A graduate of Harvard University School of Design, Velades went on to publish a prolific amount of design coverage, serving as editor at House and Garden and Architectural Digest before becoming design editor at the New York Times Magazine and Tea magazine for nearly 17 years. She was a generous mentor, a meticulous and acute colleague, and a lovelier friend, wrote design journalist Julie Lasky on Instagram. The world will be much dowdier without her.
- [33:44]
Fred Nicholaus
That is a great tribute from Julie, and this was just terribly sad to hear about. Pilar was just always a fixture in the design world and someone I definitely looked up to, and she had a razor sharp wit. If you sat down next to her at dinner, you know, she would make a few satirical comments. I remember the first time I met her, I explained, oh, you know, I cover the business of interior design. And she was like, oh, I didn't know it was a business. You know, she was terribly funny and a very sharp writer. And this is just very sad. But it's also very sweet to see the tributes pouring out to Pilar on Instagram today. And I'm sure there'll be.
- [34:19]
Dennis Scully
Yes, no, she was, she was widely admired, a former colleague of my wife's for many years, and my wife was enormously fond of her as well. She will definitely be missed and I'm sure there will be a tremendous outpouring for her. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a look at Rarify's next steps and a profile of a glass artist who's reviving traditional techniques. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.
- [34:52]
John Edelman
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Jaipur Living. Jaipur Living's curated collection of geometric rugs brings the art of angles and timeless craftsmanship into the home. Inspired by the patterns of faraway places, from Moroccan tiles to Bauhaus lines, these artisan made rugs tell a story of style, movement and a life well traveled. Let a handcrafted geometric rug transform your space. Explore the collection@jaipurliving.com or followporliving on Instagram. And now back to the show.
- [35:36]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. I'm joined now by the CEO and President of Heller, John Edelman. I thought about making you a smoking jacket, sir, because this is your third time visit on the show. You're part of the Third Timers Club.
- [35:52]
Pilar Velades
I'm like the Alec Baldwin of your podcast.
- [35:57]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm so glad to have you.
- [35:58]
Pilar Velades
I'm so glad to be here. As always, it's an honor.
- [36:00]
Dennis Scully
I really appreciate it. And I know we've got big news to share, some developments going on for you, but before we go get there, last time you were on the show, actually, you and John McPhee were on the show together, talking about some of the many things that you got into after you both finally left dwr. And one of the things that you got involved with is Heller. And you had just been there a few months when last we spoke. So I thought it would be good for us to get a bit of a catch and for you to remind us about how you came to acquire Heller and the relationship that you had with Alan Heller over the many, many years that you knew him.
- [36:47]
Pilar Velades
Yeah, I mean, Heller is so much a part of my story. Starting in 2010, January 4th of 2010, when we took over Design Within Reach, the New York Times had come out to Connecticut and taken a picture. And I thought there was going to be this amazing, heroic article coming out, Edelman McPhee coming to save Design Within Reach. And it was going to be heroic. And the article comes out, and the title of the article is, is There a Solution Within Reach? And instead of this gorgeous picture of me, which I was hoping for, it was a picture of Alan Heller holding his Bellini chair over his head, looking for the logo because Designer Reach had knocked him off. Off. Right. So I inherited this lawsuit where he was suing everybody. He sued all the executives, he sued the buyers, and it was terrible. And, you know, now, as you well know, I'm the. I'm the current president of B Regional Americas. I've stated my whole career on fighting for authenticity. So I knew it was the worst thing in the whole world. So that was January 4th. We were commuting to San Francisco. We finally met with Alan in February in New York. John and I went to his Office on Facebook 5th. And we apologized. And we said, alan, you know, we're sorry for our predecessors. We believe in authenticity. We took all of the knockoffs out of the stores off the website, even, and made friends with Alan and built a business and became quickly his biggest customer. And during that time, during those 10 years at DWR, I just was fixated on the concept of Heller and how he made product. Product. And when we sold design within reach, when we did leave, I knew I had to buy Heller. And Alan tortured me. He literally just tortured me. He'd get me right to the brink. And they go, no, no, no, by the way, I'm getting buried with all the molds. And unfortunately, after Covid, Alan got sick and passed away, and I went to his widow and we negotiated, we purchased the company, and she told me post acquisition that we were the only people that were allowed to buy the company per acquisition. Alan.
- [38:48]
Dennis Scully
So for all the hard time he had given you and I. And I remember he used to say, buy it from my widow and. And then.
- [38:54]
Pilar Velades
Right, exactly. Buy it from the widow. We did. But no. So it was. It was emotional. Why. Why Heller? You know, the. The past, you know, decades, I've devoted my life to authenticity and to modern design. And I got to decide after dwr, like, what did I want to do with my life? You know, I did a few interesting ventures. I'm involved with Cryptom I, with Chilliwitch companies that I love, but I don't run those companies. And I know I didn't want to go back into retail. I love design. I love designers. I love industrial designers. I love the interior design trade. And since I love design, Heller is pure design. So, you know, the way it's. The development process works, you work with it. You have a brief. You give it to a designer first. They translate the brief. They create something on the computer. We like this, we don't like that. And then we print, printed. And because of our manufacturing technique, molded, the print is what you're going to get. So then you refine the small piece, then you print it full size. You sit in it, you touch it, you rub it, you see if it's comfortable. You do sit tests, you watch a movie, you sand it, you scan it, you print it again. So by the time you go to mold, right, you're done. And then it's the same every single time. You know, when you're done, you don't have to worry that the cushions on a sofa don't meet in the middle or the leather has wrinkles from the neck, or the fabric's a different dye lot, you can make the same thing over and over and over. And if you make a great design, forever, if you look at the collections that we inherited, Bellini, Gary Vignelli, like, he didn't do much with it, but, oh, my goodness, the chances of getting designs like that, creating iconic, museum quality modern design are few. And far between. So that was the base we had to build on. Right. We had to fix everything. We had to figure out our factory structure. We. He didn't have any client lists or data or anything. No ecom. You know, making a new piece of Heler is really expensive, right. Because the molds are very, very time consuming and costly to produce. So to make a decision to go forward with the design is a big deal. And he would get like almost all the way there and kind of bail almost all the way there and move. He was interested in new materiality, but it couldn't quite get over the finish line. Line. But, you know, he built a brand, an amazing, phenomenal brand.
- [41:13]
Dennis Scully
Yeah.
- [41:13]
Pilar Velades
And so we had to fix a lot of stuff. I had to build a little team. We had to figure out the logistics, you know, packaging, the whole deal, because it was like buying a collection of design with no structure. You know, my job has been for a long time, you know, celebrating designers from the past, telling their romantic backstories, explaining why, you know, iconic, authentic product lasts forever. But if you don't constantly look for the next thing, that story gets old. Yeah, right. Then we met on the Internet, a company called Jumbo Studios. I saw this crazy spun aluminum chair that was for $45,000 in an off lime green tint. And idiot me is like, that's the best thing I've ever seen. So I reached out to them, you know, literally info at Jumbo Studios. Again, my name's John. Would you like to play it again together? And they said yes. And that took two years. And we launched the Fortune Share the year after.
- [42:08]
Dennis Scully
Well, so tell me about that. Help me understand better what takes two years. Tell me about the process.
- [42:14]
Pilar Velades
Just to do every aspect perfectly took forever. The drain hole has a flange at the bottom, so the water goes straight down versus puddling. We built the feet into the. Into the piece. We made it so it was very easy to take a cap out and fill it with sand. It was just really hard. And actually making this shape comfortable was really hard because we didn't start from scratch. We started with an existing sculptural piece. And, you know, if we don't make the furniture comfortable, we shouldn't be in the business because we have, we have freedom to move it around. Jumbo was amazing. It wasn't because of them. It was just a more complicated design. So then we had to have, you know, find a way to sell it. We had to get back into design within reach. When Alan was sitting and management changed, you know, they were out of dwi, the biggest account. So I had to beg, borrow, and steal to get back in because, you know, they weren't interested in the business. They hadn't, you know, the company hadn't launched a product in 20 years. They hadn't been communicated to the buyers, and the product wasn't selling very well. So it wasn't like, oh, gee, Edelman's at Heller. Bring him in. Let's do a huge program. I went bottom up versus top down and met this amazing group of young people that are there, there, and we developed this magic relationship. And our other clients, like two modern lumens, Hive, were also just super supportive of building the brand back on that side. And then on the other side, which is the side I know very well, which is hospitality, corporate interiors. We put together a group of multiline salespeople across the country to bring our product to architects and designers, because that's my favorite world. World. And then I hit the road and travel with those people. So it's been. It's been a blast.
- [43:55]
Dennis Scully
When you. When you went on the road and traveled with people, what. What were people saying? What were. What were people's response, their hesitancy, their.
- [44:03]
Pilar Velades
Questions to you, who's this company? What do you guys do? And then, you know, the biggest baggage, besides the samples I carry is we're plastic furniture. And so, oh, that's great design. Edelman, you know, you have a good reputation. This and that, that. But, you know, we don't put plastic in the library. Isn't plastic bad? How do you feel about working in plastic? So that was. If they didn't, like, just love the design and bring me in. That was always kind of a roadblock, right? So I had to figure that out. So, you know, sustainability is key. And I. I was the guy that gave a water bottle and plastic to every single person that walked in. Design within reach as a way to say hello. And times change, change, and we have to evolve with those times. I'm also the idiot that bought a plastic furniture company. So what do you do? You can either double down and work like the government does and say plastic's great and lie to everybody, or you can fight to change it and make a difference. So I've always preached that the number one form of sustainability is longevity. Great design survives the test of time. Time number two, recyclability. So inherently, because of our ingredients, you can recycle our product anywhere. And I inherited that. So then we found a way to use recycled materials in the mix, and that's Hard. It's very hard in the United States. We're not good at it. But we were able to find recycled post agricultural waste, which were the black plastic strips that separate crops. And since they're all the same color, we're able to make our colors consistently with that product and use up to 25% in the mix. And that was a big breakthrough. So awesome. We're recycled, we have longevity and we're using recycled materials. And that's where most of the industry sits today. And then if I'm allowed to go there, we met this amazing guy through a former, former Design Within Reach friend of ours named Sarah Zafko. She's, she's amazing. She has her own TV show. She's a go getter. She's. She's a wild personality. And she had an old friend that got involved with a company called Worry Free Plastics and took it over. And the concept of Worry Free is they got inspired by the technology to clean oil spills where they would throw an enzyme into the oil, it would eat the oil and produce basically fish oil food. They say, why can't we use that same technology and embed it in plastic? And they did it. So we worked for 18 months on how to add their product into our mix and we just announced that we did it. So Heller Furniture is the only regenerative furniture in our industry, in our materiality, I think in any materiality. So what's that mean? If you take our product in a zero oxygenated environment for three to five years, it will literally become food. It will be eaten by microbes, enzymes, et cetera, and then they poop. Nutrient rich soil. It's kind of a miracle. No microplastics and it leaves the environment better than it found it.
- [47:16]
Dennis Scully
So, I mean, out on your deck, nothing is going to be different, right? So it's not going to start breaking down.
- [47:23]
Pilar Velades
You can keep it for 100 years. You can even keep it in your pool underwater. Because in the pool it's got chlorine that kills those things that'll eat it. But there's a click in the formulation that happens after three to five years with no oxygen. No oxygen is the bottom of a landfill. It's in the ocean. And when that kind of starts the process, it doesn't dissolve, it turns into food. Because if you dissolved, that would become microplastic.
- [47:49]
Dennis Scully
And is the sustainability issue, where does it stand? Are people trying to push sustainability with ferocity or have people kind of taken their eye off of that as the.
- [48:01]
John Edelman
Big issue these days?
- [48:03]
Pilar Velades
I don't see anybody taking their eye off the ball. The problem is, if it costs more, it doesn't really stand much of a chance. Right. Just the way it is. Okay? We are in a capitalist society. We have budgets. The people building hotels have to make a profit. So the onus is on people like us to find a way to create something sustainable and not make it cost more, more. So right now, like, we're eating that little increase that we have, and we're not necessarily passing it on. We're passing on some tariff increases for our accessories.
- [48:34]
Dennis Scully
We'll get to that.
- [48:35]
Pilar Velades
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in terms of this increase, we don't believe the customer should have to pay more to do the right thing. And so we have been on this for a while before we made this announcement, and basically now, but really, by April 1, 100% of our furniture will be made this way. Regenerative. But April 1st, our furniture will be sustainable.
- [49:00]
Dennis Scully
Okay, so let's talk about this crazy climate that we're in right now for business. Because, man, I can't remember a time where so many challenges are being thrown at businesses. We can start with tariffs. I mean, you've got things coming in from abroad. Tell me how it's impacting you, how you're thinking about.
- [49:21]
Pilar Velades
So we make our furniture in the United States and our accessories in China, and we do it because they make them better. We're making them out of 100% recycled product, which we can't do here. And it's just the right place to be. So we had orders placed. We have clients waiting for them, and they cost 20% more now. So what do we do? I can't eat a 20% increase. We had to pass them on. So we're launching a new storage collection auction. We had to increase the launch price of 20%, and it's the way it is. And a lot of great furniture comes from those places. Now we're fighting with Canada, so, you know, we're gonna have a problem shipping to Canada. I'm shocked that people don't understand how tariffs work. You know, tariffs are paid by the importer, not by the exporter. So if you buy widgets from a country that's being tariffed, you bring them to the United States, you import them, and pay the tariff. You're yourself. And then you pass that cost on to the consumer, which is American people. So things cost more, and so that drives prices up. There's no way around it. But right now, we pay the tariff, and that should be crystal clear. Restoration Hardware is Bringing a sofa in from China. Restoration hard pays the tariff and either take a decrease in their bottom line or pass it on to the consumer. And since they're publicly traded companies, they're not allowed to either it, they have to pass it on because you can't show quarter over quarter at a decreased gross margin. So we're going to pay more for things just the way it is.
- [50:50]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. It seems like many of the Italian companies are trying to better figure out the American market. We've been talking recently about this Floss B and B Italia roll up that now maybe looks like they're going to unroll some of that. I, I don't know what ultimately happens there, but word on the street is BNB Italia's looking to sell off at least the furniture side of that business. What do you make of all of that?
- [51:18]
Pilar Velades
I think most of the Europeans don't understand the American market and they run the businesses out of Italy. If they're Italian, they don't put robust structures in the United States in general. They sell the product to the US entity and, and then at a markup, then it has to be sold again. So the prices are inherently higher. The A and D world in Europe is so different than the States because they call everybody a dealer. We have dealers, we have retail, we have purchasing agents. We have this whole completely different structure. They don't have these massive design firms in general like we do. They're smaller. So when they, they don't, they don't move a centralized headquarters to the state. I don't know that there's a huge advantage to combining those companies because they're not getting economies of scale because they're different types of businesses. And I think that the concept of luxury was great, but I don't think they thought through the distribution channels and who they're selling to. It's a very narrow audience, an amazing audience, but a narrow audience. So we'll see. I think it can be done better, it can be done right. I think there are certain companies like a million and a Hayworth that have a structure to understand all the markets and invested for, you know, for, for more than decades, you know, and having great people on the ground in those places. But I think running them out of Europe for the American consumer is a tough one.
- [52:45]
Dennis Scully
Do you think this whole roll up strategy in general ends up working well? So I mean, as you were saying, Hayworth has a whole host of brands under it. Boltrono, Frau and Janice Sac and others. And then this big Floss B and B Italia Group and of course, Miller Knoll owns several companies that you used to work with. I mean, what do you think of these companies owning so many brands? Can they run them effectively?
- [53:13]
Pilar Velades
It's all about people, Dennis. It's 100% about the people. Do you put great people in charge of each brand that understand the identity and will believe, need to keep that brand true to itself? You know, I've had experiences. You know, I don't want to. I guess I can go to it now because they've changed hands so many times. But Edelman Leather was a great example. My mother and father put their heart and soul in that business. And then John McPhee and I, you know, we worked tirelessly, endlessly, 247 to make that the greatest leather company in the world. And then when they, when they bought it, I don't believe that they put the proper management in place to maintain that aura of the best. If you can speak in superlatives and tell the truth, you've won. How many of these brands can keep their superlatives post acquisition? I think that's what they have to watch out for. There's a lot of factors. It can be done. You look at Richmond, you look at lvmh, there's some amazing things have happened. I think the collaboration between her, Miller and Design Within Reach and Noel is probably going to go down, is pretty amazingly successful. I think what Hayworth has done is been really good. I think the only thing that we have to do is look at, look at time. You know, can they, can they sustain and will they continually invest in the right people and be true to the brands?
- [54:30]
Dennis Scully
Yeah.
- [54:31]
Pilar Velades
The worst thing that can happen when you have these acquisitions, they start to meld into one brand and you lose individual identity. Because they paid for the brand. Right. And brand is everything.
- [54:41]
Dennis Scully
I want to ask you something else. One of the, one of the other organizations that you're, that you have a leadership role in is, is Be Original Americas. And first, I want to have you tell people exactly what that organization is, what it does, and, and what you guys are, are focused on today because we talk a lot about dupes here on the, on the show. John and I listen. And your organization. Yeah.
- [55:04]
Pilar Velades
So Be Original America is an amazing organization fighting for authenticity and design. We do that through education and through participation for some of the best, best design companies out there, from Miller Knoll, Bernhardt, Carl Hansen, Fritz Hansen, flaw everybody to Gensler, Hok Rote, so on both sides. So you have design firms and manufacturers educating their consumers and their companies about the value authentic design and the longevity of authentic design. And one of the examples I use is you have a consumer that won't drink out of a plastic water bottle model, but it's okay buying a dupe, so the dupe will have no sustainability issues. It's valueless after acquisition, and it won't last. So how do you educate people that buying copies is wrong? Every copy purchased slowly kills the future of design. Right. So it took me, I mentioned, almost three years to create the Fortune share, and if someone copies that, I can't fund the next new item, and we'll slowly just stop having design. That was. Alan Heller was obsessed with that. He was obsessed about protecting the future of design. Authenticity and fighting for authenticity protects the future of design.
- [56:23]
Dennis Scully
And do you feel like the message is resonating? I mean, we often wonder, where are we in the war on dupes? I mean, are people getting that message?
- [56:33]
Pilar Velades
Yes. And the biggest proof of that is on the design side. So we have the best, some of the best design firms in the world as members, and they're the decision makers. So they specify authentic and they fight for it. Then it happens. And that's what people want to emulate. So when they see this stuff in the magazine, they see the work of these great firms, they're inspired to do the same. So by having these fantastic firms and design producers be members, they influence their followers, and then the story spreads.
- [57:04]
Dennis Scully
Well, I hope that it really resonates with the next generation. That's who we need to count on. And I hope that they take that really seriously.
- [57:14]
Pilar Velades
Dennis, you know, our involvement with New York School of Interior Design. I'm at Parsons, I'm at risd. We're at the new school, Cranbrook Scad, Appalachia State, where we're trying to get the message out there and really work with the students as young as we can get. Get them. Because they're not really taught that in school. Like, you don't have to teach them about sustainability. Like, they're on it. So how does that relate to authenticity? You don't have to teach them about the value of, you know, flea markets and those things that they're into design. They're there that relates to authenticity. You don't have to worry about them getting excited for a new product. They love new product. So if you, if, if you get them on those concepts, they realize, well, yeah, of course, then you have to support authentic design.
- [57:59]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. Well, I hope more of them will. And listen, I hope this opens a lot of new doors. For you. And it sounds like you're going to be able to go back and call on a lot of people that couldn't take the product in the past. So it seems exciting. I'll have to have you back for the fourth time, John, to hear how it's all going.
- [58:19]
Pilar Velades
But then I want a special blazer, please. I want a special blazer. I appreciate.
- [58:24]
Dennis Scully
Definitely have that made up for you. I'm so grateful for your time. It's always great to talk with you.
- [58:28]
Pilar Velades
This is the best. Thank you so much, sir.
- [58:35]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a moment to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [58:43]
Fred Nicholaus
Architectural Digest caught my eye this week. Dennis. I know we occasionally like to sort of poke at AD and certainly make many people in the industry do. I think by virtue of the fact that it's the biggest design publication, it becomes a little bit of a target. And people always like to complain about how it's always sort of like a lesser Kardashian's boathouse on the COVID of AD which is maybe a fair complaint sometimes. But the COVID this month is really kind of a stunningly interesting cover. It's a project by Adam Charlep Hyman. It's a very vibey bathroom with sort of swirling blue and white tile that's sort of like the ocean. And it's definitely unusual. Definitely not what you normally see on the COVID of AD Very wild. I'm sure some people won't like it, but I think it's really, you know, really cool and interesting cover. And I just wanted, you know, when we sort of point out that AD does a project with a celebrity that's maybe not up to snuff, I think it's important to point out when they're taking risks and doing something really cool. And this project by Adam, Charlotte Paimon is very cool. So I, you know, kudos to AD for my little, little shout out. Did you look at it, Dennis?
- [59:43]
Dennis Scully
You know, I did and I think it's interesting. AD seems to have a redesign going on, a different look and feel. They're certainly experimenting and exploring with some different things. So interesting. I'm glad you, glad you shouted that out.
- [59:56]
Fred Nicholaus
What caught your eye this week?
- [59:57]
Dennis Scully
What caught my eye is the, the building excitement for, I believe it's Friday's opening of the big French retailer Printon, which is opening downtown in the financial district. And it's all been designed by AD100 architectural designer Laura Gonzalez. And the, the images that I've seen so far look incredibly compelling. And there's all these comparisons to, oh, is this the next Barney's? Is this the next big retail store that, that everyone from the design community and the fashion community is going to want to come and check out and be a part of? And is it going to set the tone for, for the next big wave in, in retail? So it's, it seems like it's a big deal.
- [60:39]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, absolutely. And thank you for saying pron. Tom first, because I definitely my, my French is not, not what it used to be, so I appreciate that. I agree. It looks stunning. I mean, when I first saw pictures of it, I was like, oh, is this like some set from the Brutalist or something like that? It's, it looks incredible. It's, it's a beautiful, beautiful projects and I can't wait to check it out in person.
- [61:01]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no, no. It, it looks like a, a must visit location. So we look forward to, to that and best of luck to everyone there. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastnessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicolas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully.
- [61:31]
John Edelman
Have a great weekend and we'll be.
- [61:32]
Dennis Scully
Back with you on Monday.