The Thursday Show: Jonathan Adler's quest for 'more, more, more.' Plus: A Burke Decor update

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Summary Episode: The Thursday Show: Jonathan Adler's quest for 'more, more, more.' Plus: A Burke Decor update
Release Date: January 9, 2025
Host: Dennis Scully
Executive Editor: Fred Nicholas

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1. Introduction and Overview

In this episode of the Business of Home podcast, hosts Dennis Scully and Fred Nicholas dive into the latest developments within the interior design industry. The discussion navigates through current news, including updates on Burke Decor’s legal troubles, the bankruptcy of the Container Store, and a surge in mergers and acquisitions (M&A) activities. The highlight of the episode is an in-depth conversation with renowned potter and retail mogul Jonathan Adler about his company's recent acquisition by Consortium Brand Partners and his relentless pursuit of expanding his brand.

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2. Industry News Updates

a. Burke Decor Update

The hosts revisit the ongoing saga of Burke Decor, an e-commerce retailer plagued by customer dissatisfaction and legal issues. Fred Nicholas provides a comprehensive overview:

"Burke Decor is still operational. You can go to the site and still place an order today. And there are still people trying to get their money."
(16:37)

Despite multiple lawsuits, including FedEx’s recent $1.6 million claim for unpaid bills, the company remains active online. The hosts express skepticism about whether Burke Decor can resolve its financial woes, highlighting the challenges of accountability in the e-commerce space.

b. Container Store Bankruptcy

The podcast delivers the somber news that The Container Store has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after two years of financial losses and being delisted from the New York Stock Exchange.

"The container Store is filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after two years of losses and being delisted from the New York Stock Exchange."
(11:35)

Dennis Scully laments the decline of a once-leading brand in the storage and organizing niche, attributing the downfall to intense competition from giants like Amazon, Walmart, and Target, as well as the company’s high debt levels.

c. Mergers and Acquisitions: Jonathan Adler and Others

A surge in M&A activity marks the beginning of 2025, with Jonathan Adler’s brand acquisition by Consortium Brand Partners being a significant highlight.

"Jonathan Adler's brand had been acquired by private equity firm Consortium Brand Partners."
(05:14)

Fred Nicholas discusses Consortium Brand Partners’ strategy of acquiring and growing consumer brands, including Draper James and Outdoor Voices. The acquisition of Jonathan Adler is seen as a strategic move to enhance brand recognition and expand market reach.

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3. Impact of Natural Disasters on the Design Community

Dennis Scully and Fred Nicholas take a moment to address the devastating wildfires in Los Angeles, acknowledging the loss of Amber Lewis’s shop and the broader impact on the community.

"I was saddened to see that Amber Lewis has lost her shop in that area and I know that many people's homes have been affected."
(02:58)

The hosts express solidarity with those affected, highlighting the intersection of climate change and its repercussions on the design and retail sectors.

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4. Trend Spotlight: "Boy Apartments" on TikTok

The podcast explores the emerging trend of men sharing their stylish and well-appointed apartments on TikTok, challenging longstanding stereotypes about masculinity and home design.

"Over the summer a clip went viral on the platform highlighting so called boy apartments, kicking off a new trend of men sharing their artfully designed spaces online."
(20:33)

Fred Nicholas and Dennis Scully discuss the societal implications, noting that this trend signifies a shift towards broader acceptance of men’s interest in interior design. They reflect on past stereotypes and celebrate the positive change in how men present their living spaces.

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5. Special Interview: Jonathan Adler on His Company's Acquisition and Future Plans

Guest: Jonathan Adler, World-Renowned Potter and Retail Giant
Timestamp: (26:19) to (49:29)

Dennis Scully welcomes Jonathan Adler to discuss the recent acquisition of his company by Consortium Brand Partners. The conversation delves into Adler’s vision for the future, his relationship with private equity, and his unwavering desire to create more products.

Key Highlights:

• Vision for Expansion: Jonathan Adler emphasizes his "quest for more, more, more," expressing enthusiasm for the new partnership that enables greater creativity and expansion into under-penetrated home categories.

  "The big news is that we have new owners, partners for my company... [this] enables me to continue my quest for more, more, more."
  (26:54)

• Balancing Creativity and Capitalism: Adler reflects on maintaining his unique, eccentric design ethos while navigating the corporate aspects of running a successful business.

  "I think the challenge is finding the balance of creativity and capitalism. It really is."
  (34:56)

• Relationship with Private Equity: Addressing concerns about private equity's impact on creative businesses, Adler reassures listeners that Consortium Brand Partners aligns with his vision of fostering creativity without stifling the brand’s unique identity.

  "There are some private equity firms who are notorious for strip mining businesses. And there are some who are beloved for supporting and building businesses. I think I have a very good marriage."
  (46:15)

• Future Projects and Brand Building: Adler discusses plans to introduce products at various price points to make his designs accessible to a broader audience, aiming to retain quality while expanding market reach.

  "I want to make great stuff and I want to make it at different price points."
  (46:42)

• Maintaining Brand Identity: Adler underscores the importance of staying authentic and maintaining the light, spontaneous vibe that defines his brand, even as the company scales.

  "I want people in the world just to enjoy the output of all their wranglings and creativity."
  (48:18)

The interview concludes with Adler reaffirming his commitment to creativity and his excitement about the company’s future under new leadership.

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6. Closing Highlights

a. Farewell to Caitlin Peterson’s Column

Fred Nicholas announces the conclusion of Caitlin Peterson’s "50 States Project," a five-year endeavor showcasing interviews with interior designers from across the United States. The column was praised for highlighting diverse voices outside traditional hubs like New York and LA.

"It's very sad to see it go, but there are so many fascinating conversations in there."
(49:37)

b. Walmart’s Birkin Bag Controversy

The episode touches on the viral trend of Walmart selling a knock-off Birkin bag, sparking debate over luxury dupes and intellectual property.

"Walmart has since taken it down off the website because there was so much controversy around it."
(51:39)

Dennis Scully reflects on the public’s reaction, likening it to a sense of victory against overpriced luxury goods, while Fred Nicholas speculates on the implications for the home goods sector.

"Dupes are so weird and interesting... especially if that kind of thing starts coming for home more aggressively."
(51:55)

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Conclusion

This episode of the Business of Home podcast offers a comprehensive overview of significant happenings in the interior design industry, from high-profile acquisitions and bankruptcies to emerging social media trends and legal battles. The insightful interview with Jonathan Adler provides a deep dive into the dynamics of brand building and the symbiotic relationship between creativity and business acumen. Closing discussions honor the contributions of industry voices and examine the cultural ramifications of retail trends, making this episode a valuable resource for professionals and enthusiasts alike.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jonathan Adler:

  "I have an endless and restless desire to design more and more stuff."
  (26:54)

• Fred Nicholas:

  "It's an extremely valuable asset... having a recognizable, valuable brand is going to be one of the things that makes that deal either happen or not happen."
  (10:48)

• Dennis Scully:

  "You know, this is a big step up for that and I welcome it. Let's do some rebranding there."
  (24:24)

• Jonathan Adler:

  "Everything I say, maybe I'm just a very banal person, but I mean what I say."
  (46:42)

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For more information, resources, and industry updates, visit Business of Home.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to Jonathan Adler about his company's big move. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including an update on the Burke Decor drama, bankruptcy for the Container Store and a flurry of acquisitions to kick off the new year. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.

[Fred Nicholas]

Hi, Dennis. How's it going?

[Dennis Scully]

Great. Welcome back.

[Fred Nicholas]

Thank you. We have survived to 25. Now all that remains is for us to thrive.

[Dennis Scully]

That will be us in 2025. Thriving.

[Fred Nicholas]

Did you miss discussing the weekly news of the design industry while we were on a little well earned holiday break, Dennis?

[Dennis Scully]

Of course I did. I, unlike many others, don't really thrive on vacation. Fred, I want to be right here sharing the news or just pull Refreshing.

[Fred Nicholas]

Havenly's homepage every day to see what company they were about to acquire.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly.

[Fred Nicholas]

Well, we are back, but let's quickly look back on Monday's episode. Before we get started, a conversation with Sean Henderson. Fantastic designer, always been a fan, Lovely guy. Good conversation.

[Dennis Scully]

I agree. And a conversation that seems to have resonated with a lot of people, judging by the notes that I've gotten. We've talked a lot with guests about how much more expensive things are in the interior design world. And he feels that if I'm going to tell this client the sofa is $20,000, everything better be perfect about this sofa. And I just feel a heightened level of pressure with, with every aspect of it because of how much more it costs. So I thought that was so interesting for him to share that. What did you think?

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I thought that was fascinating because we've talked about how projects have gotten so much more expensive, but we've tended to look at it the lens of, oh, that makes clients pull back. So that's bad for designers business. But it was interesting to think about the psychological implications of what does it mean when a project is 50%, 80%, 100% more expensive than it was five years ago? Does that make this profession so much more stressful? Should designers not worry about it because their clients are so much more well off? Because I don't know, it's a really interesting dilemma. I think Sean seemed to be dealing with it relatively well, but it's, it's something to grapple with as, as life and in particular this industry gets, gets more expensive. Also just a fun little gossipy moment from it. I've always wanted to know what it's like when you're on one of these industry lists, like the 8101 year and then you're off it. Sean gave some interesting insight about being both on and off. He's on it right now. So there's a happy ending, but I thought it was, I was just interested to get that little bit. So listeners, that is a reason to dive in on that one.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes. Our obsession with the AD100 list continues and we always love hearing fun behind the scenes stories like that. Turns out it doesn't feel good to be left off the list. No surprise there. Right?

[Fred Nicholas]

Well, Sean's resilient and he's back on it. As I said, happy ending. Let's focus on that.

[Dennis Scully]

Indeed. Indeed. Before we move on, I know we wanted to say a quick word about the horrible wildfires raging in Los Angeles. I know that the community there has been very affected. I was saddened to see that Amber Lewis has lost her shop in that area and I know that many people's homes have been affected. I just wanted to express how badly we feel and send everyone our good wishes.

[Fred Nicholas]

I know it's, it's so heartbreaking to see these images and as we're recording that, you know, the wildfire is still going. You know, there'll be a lot to talk about in terms of climate change and insurance and all that stuff. But you know, for the meantime, just our thoughts go out to everyone listening to this in Los Angeles. And you know, we're just, we're just hoping for the best.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, absolutely. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.

[Jonathan Adler]

Foreign.

[Dennis Scully]

This podcast is sponsored by Laloy. Laloy will be at Vegas market this month, January 26th through the 30th at the World Market center showroom B480. They'll be bringing nine all new rug collections plus hundreds of one of a kind rugs, wall art, pillows and poufs. Laloyloy highly recommends making an appointment for the best possible market experience, which you can [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow them on Instagram and TikTok Loloy Rugs. This podcast is also sponsored by Anthem Smart Showering only from Kohler. Anthem plus creates a transportive world for body and mind with every shower. It combines water, steam, light and sound in a fully immersive sensory experience with custom settings to match any mood and enhance any routine. Discover how you can design a personalized escape with Anthem plus smart [e-mail] showers and we're back. Well, it looks like M and A season has begun, Fred.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes. On Tuesday, news broke that Jonathan Adler's brand had been acquired by private equity firm Consortium Brand Partners. But that was only one of a seemingly endless parade of M and A deals announced this week. Laura. Laura Ashley was acquired. Some French porcelain makers merged, A trade magazine changed hands. There's plenty more where that came from. Where should we start here, Dennis, Amid this flurry of M and A deals.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, there's much to talk about. We're going to be talking with Jonathan Adler in just a little bit. But before we get into all of that, let's talk about your conversation with Consortium Brand Partners and what their perspective was on all of this.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes, Consortium Brand Partners, a company many in our industry know very well. Yeah. So Consortium Brand Partners is a relatively young company. It's only a few years old, but they, they've so far bought Reese Witherspoon's fashion company, Draper James and Outdoor Voices, which is like an athletic apparel company. Very cool. A lot of Outdoor Voices tote bags here in Brooklyn. You know, they, they buy consumer brands and they try and grow them. That's what Cory Baker, one of the founding partners, told me. Like, it's not, you know, everybody in the private equity world now is very conscious about what a bad reputation private equity has. And so he was very like, we're not like those private equity companies. He was saying, we want to brands. And in that, he seemed very sincere. You know, I think the opportunity here is there's not a lot of really big names in home, especially when you compare to fashion. For example, we talk about this on the show sometimes, about how many recognizable fashion brands there are, how few recognizable home brands there are. And I think Jonathan Adler is someone who has name recognition. And, you know, his whole approach, Corey's whole approach is, you know, we want to take a situation where the brand is bigger than the business and make the business as big as the brand. And so I think that's what they're going to try and do here.

[Dennis Scully]

We talk a lot, as you say, about how difficult it is to build a brand. And I think many of these companies in the home world wish they were further along in those efforts to build that brand because that's where the real value can be unlocked. And it's interesting you mentioned about Corey at Consortium and the Laura Ashley deal that we talked about at the opener, which was a company that Corey used to be part of, which is Marquee Brands that made that acquisition. And that team came up through the ranks having done a lot of these licensing deals. And I think that's a big opportunity for Jonathan, who, as he says, just wants more of more.

[Fred Nicholas]

So I think more was very much the word of the day when I spoke to both Jonathan and Corey. Yeah, I think also just in general, the past few years have been defined by, in the home industry, this sort of sense of, well, the market's really bad. It's now really a time to actually do a deal. There have been a lot of people who've been wanting to sell, but there haven't been as many people who were eager about buying. And I think whether it was the election finally being over, whether it's a sense that the housing market may rebound in 2025, whether it's the stumps working behind the scenes to get the juice flowing, it seems like everyone just January 1st was like, okay, time to shift our strategy. Let's buy. And so we're seeing a lot of deals get made. We don't have time to even get through half of them that were announced only in the past few weeks alone. So I'm really interested to see if that continues on as the year starts to unfold.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, I mean, I think we talked about that a little bit towards the end of the year and I think some of the predictions that people shared involved some of those thoughts as well. It does seem like the gun went off. And here we go.

[Fred Nicholas]

I wish. I wish that had been my prediction. I said Houzz would go public. What was I thinking?

[Dennis Scully]

What were you thinking? We'll see if that happens for you finally, Fred. But it is interesting that there's a lot of opportunity in the brand building side of this and in talking about some of these deals and mentioning Laura Ashley, a brand that I know well as I used to be the stock boy at Laura Ashley in my high school years. But I've seen that brand pass hands so many times, but always comes out stronger and there's more opportunity for it. And I think I see a little bit of that potential in what's happening at Kravet with both this Pottery Barn deal and obviously the big investment news that we shared happening for them. I think there's a lot of opportunity to build on that Kravit name and take it into a lot of markets that they may not be really in yet in a meaningful way. What do you think?

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, we should explain. You know, Kravitz just inked a deal with Pottery Barn, which. Which went public over the past couple weeks, which is a big deal. Right, Dennis? It was not just fabric on Pottery Barn furniture. It was plates. Right. It was a whole.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, no, absolutely. A whole range of household items, which at one point was what the strength of Laura Ashley was. It was a whole home section. And I think. I think that Kravit can certainly look at that model, and I think they are. And so it's interesting to see now that they have big financial backers behind them, where that might go. And I think that many in our industry have tried to tiptoe into that world. Schumacher setting up some of these cute boutiques around the country, I think is a little bit of that as well. And so I would definitely expect to see a lot more of that in the months ahead.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I mean, I think this may be sort of obvious, but in an age when people have so much access to manufacturing, anyone can make anything. I mean, that's a little bit of an oversimplification, but brand is really one of the few enduring, tangible things that makes a company valuable, because it's like recognition with the consumer. You can always find someone to come along and make a chair for 50 cents less. But if you have a brand that people connect with, it's an extremely valuable asset. And I think that now that everyone seems to have agreed that now is the time to make deals, I think. So having a recognizable, valuable brand is going to be one of the things that makes that deal either happen or not happen. So, interested to see who else is out there, who's going to be on the Thursday show in the near future talking about a brand deal? We'll see.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, no, I think there'll be a lot more coming soon. Sadly, we have to move on to bad news for the Container Store. The storage chain has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after two years of losses and being delisted from the New York Stock Exchange. This one hit me quite hard, Fred, as I'm a big Container Store fan. As I have shared on the show before, I'm. I'm sorry for them because at one point, they were. They were the leader in this whole organizing and storage space. Well, before there was a Marie Kondo, there was a Container Store.

[Fred Nicholas]

So, yes, this news does not spark joy.

[Dennis Scully]

I.

[Fred Nicholas]

This has been a long time coming. I mean, I think we've talked about the Container Store a few times on this show. Every time I've looked at the business, it's always felt like the stock could tick down a few dollars or a few cents. They've had two years of losses. Their net sales have fallen something 10% year over year. Their store comps plummeted 12.5%. I mean, it's a little in the weeds in the retail numbers, but spoiler alert, those numbers are not good. And getting delisted off the New York Stock Exchange is obviously a very bad sign. Speaking of predictions, our retail columnist Warren Schulberg talked about the fact that there would be, we are going to see continued retail pain in the home world. It's not like, because the year change is over, that's gone. And if you've listened to the show at all, you know why. It's, people haven't been moving, they haven't been shopping for their homes. And you feel it most acutely at stores like the Container Store. So this may be kind of like a macroeconomic story, the same retail pain thing we've been talking about for the past year. But I wonder, is there something about the Container Store? Does it fit into today's market as well as it once did? What do you think?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I think it was highly specialized, and I think that was one of its challenges. I also think you and I have talked a lot about the competitive landscape that it faced, and many of these retailers have struggled against Amazon. They're going head to head not only with Amazon, but with Walmart and Target. And honestly, could you face three bigger challenges?

[Fred Nicholas]

Temu, too? I mean, if you want a random plastic box.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. And, you know, they tried to go a little bit higher end with closets and organize systems, and I think they came up against California closets in that space as well. But it was just hard for them to find their place. And everybody just came along and I think could do what they did for less and quicker. And unfortunately, they had had a lot of debt on the books, and they were never able to catch up with that either. And other companies were not nearly as leveraged.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I mean, we should say also, this is a chapter 11 bankruptcy, not a chapter 7. So the container Store has said that they'll continue operating and that they'll financially reorganize. And it's not like they've shut down all their stores overnight. They may well come out of this stronger. There may be a new model, there may be a new way to kind of pare back and get stronger and forge ahead. But it's certainly not great times over there, right?

[Dennis Scully]

No, no, no. It's, it's, it's an unfortunate situation, and we're going to go right into Another unfortunate situation, which is more legal troubles for Burk Decor.

[Fred Nicholas]

FRED Another lawsuit against beleaguered E commerce retailer Burk Decor. This time it's FedEx suing the company for unpaid bills, $1.6 million worth of them. DENNIS Another Burke Decor story.

[Dennis Scully]

Another Burke Decor story. Striking to see how long a leash FedEx will give you. I mean, they'll let you run up 1.6 million before they come after you. But we should refresh people's memory about the Burke Decor story because we haven't spoken about it in a while.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah. So Burke Decor is an E Commerce retailer of home goods. It existed relatively happily and successfully for quite some time. Then in 2023 or so, customers, designers, many designers shopped at Burke Decor, started placing orders and not getting them and then having a hard time getting a refund, sort of getting a runaround for the company. We started reporting on it early last year, and it sort of came out that they had been having all these problems behind the scenes. They got sued by their lender, all kinds of drama behind the scenes. And a lot of people just simply either were not getting their product or their money to the point that there is a Facebook group called Burke Decor scammed me, which is still an active thing. So we've kind of covered what's been going on with them in a lot of detail. And I would urge you to check out businessofhome.com to get the full story. This new chapter is just, it's kind of interesting because despite the fact that they've had all these problems, Berk Decor is still operational. You can go to the site and still place an order today. And there are still people trying to get their money. And FedEx was one of their shipping vendors. And as you said, the company was racking up bills of $80,000 a week or every two weeks. For FedEx to sit on that debt for that long is kind of nuts. I don't know. I wonder how that happened. I'm wondering if someone at FedEx is getting a talking to about this, but they're coming for their money. I don't know if they're going to get it. I'm skeptical.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so often you hear these lenders, you want the company to succeed, or they come back and pay down part of the bill and they sort of give you an update about, oh, business is getting a little bit better. And so, I mean, I think people wanted to believe. And I'm surprised this company is still an ongoing entity in any way at all.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I know that's really the confusing thing about this. And I've spoken to a lot of jilted customers of Burke Decor, and you just look at the online commentary and people are gobsmacked by the fact that this company has been not fulfilling orders promptly for years at this point and continues to exist. I mean, to be fair, it does deliver orders and people have gotten refunds. It's not like it's a blanket scam by any means, but it's certainly been challenged for a long period of time, yet it keeps going. I mean, I think the reality is just that like an E commerce site can be run relatively cheaply and if you've built it up over time to have domain authority in Google search results, people are just searching for a chair. They get burke decor.com, they click on the chair. They're not doing all this research to find out, oh, there was a scandal in businessofhome.com, they just want the chair. It is an interesting thing. I mean, to be fair, Aaron Burke herself has filed for kind of a version of personal bankruptcy in California. The Ohio attorney general apparently has been involved in. I don't know if they're suing Berk Decor, but they're certainly involved in investigating it. There's other vendors who have sued Berk Decor, so it's possible that they will be forced to shut down by hook or crook, but it's also equally possible they'll just keep going.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and as you say, we always assume that people are doing lots of due diligence and reading all the Google reviews and going on and seeing what's being said about the company. But Lee Mayer from Havenly reminded us during the time she was doing the interior define acquisition and she herself couldn't get over the fact that all these orders continued to come in for Interior define when anytime you Googled anything online, it was all negative reviews and I haven't gotten my sofa and what's going on with that company. So, I mean, a lot of people, as you say, just don't dig deeper. And I will say, in defense of Aaron Burke, when you speak to some of her vendors, they were very impressed by her. And I think a lot of people again, wanted it to work. And she has been a good distribution channel for many companies. And so I think there's also that goes on as well. So it's a sad one. I don't know what you think happens next here, but you can certainly see why people get very cynical and skeptical about working with some of these Online companies. And maybe the takeaway is they should be a little cynical and skeptical.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, well, I'm glad you said both of those conflicting points, but I do think Ehrenberg should be applauded for having built up this site that was a very artfully curated selection of home goods. And as you said, she did a lot of business for a long time. It was a reliable place to get these brands. And I think that's difficult to do. And as you said, there's a desire to want to see it work for all kinds of reasons. It's possible also, by the way, that they'll emerge from this bankruptcy case in California. She'll be able to recapitalize the business in some way and build it back up. You never know. Stranger comebacks have occurred on the point about E commerce in general. Yeah, I do think it's one of these weird things where we spent 20 years and everyone was like, you'll never buy home goods online. That'll never happen. And now it's to the point where people, many, many people just assume e commerce is completely smooth oiled machine and anything they click to buy is going to show up a day later. So it's really interesting. I don't know that there's a simple solution here. I don't think it's realistic for designers to aggressively vet every little thing that they do. But I think it's a reminder to be diligent about working with certainly with new companies you haven't worked with before or not assuming too much. I don't know. I don't want to make people too skeptical here, but I do think that there have been too many of these stories not to exercise a little bit of caution.

[Dennis Scully]

No, I agree. And all those people who were counseling to use your amex card as much as possible and these transactions and some of the other sort of safety precaution measures that you can take, I think that those are well placed. I think we're still in a very bumpy, rocky period in the industry and we haven't yet come out the other side despite the fact that we have turned the calendar and it is thrive 25 here. But not everyone is thriving and we need to remember that. Moving on. Yes, Fred, we're going to talk about boy apartments. That's right. Can men have nice homes? Well, TikTok seems to think so. Over the summer a clip went viral on the platform highlighting so called boy apartments, kicking off a new trend of men sharing their artfully designed spaces online. Revolutionary. What do you think, Fred?

[Fred Nicholas]

Why Is this a trend? Like, yes, a man can have a nice apartment. What a shock.

[Dennis Scully]

I think it shows that society thinks so little of men that they don't even have the expectation that they can have a nice apartment. Perhaps, perhaps it's that, I don't know.

[Fred Nicholas]

Just a few months ago we were talking about this viral, like, talk show where this comedian would go to boys apartments and point out how dangerous and disgusting they were. So I'm glad to see a little bit of content on the other side of the ledger. I mean, to walk it back a little bit. I do think it's interesting and we may be wading into somewhat controversial waters here, but the gender discussion in interior design in home has always been sort of an interesting one. People don't really plainly state this, but when you talk to people on the retail side of the industry and furniture makers, they'll generally say, look, we are gearing our business towards women. And I think that that's kind of an unspoken thing that doesn't get stated plainly. But it's true. At least it's true to the extent that this is the way that these people think. But I wonder if, I don't know if that's changing, if it's, I don't know. I'm a man, I'm interested in home goods. I don't know. I know you are as well. Maybe we're not the, maybe we do not really represent the Democrats. Graphic, though. Dennis, what do you think?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, I think that's so interesting what you say. And one of my mentors in the, in the retail world, when I had a retail store trained me that the, the wife comes in during the week and then drags the husband in on Saturday or Sunday to make the big purchase. And I think that is probably somewhat of an outdated model. But it certainly, so often when you, when you talk to retail CEOs, they just say she, they tell you she's looking for this and she want, wants that. And so I think that is very much a mindset. But what I thought was interesting about the boy apartments was that this notion of the bachelor pad and sort of how that has evolved. My nicest department ever was my bachelor pad and I miss it. I don't know about you.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I don't know if I can say the same thing, Dennis, but I would like to see that. DENNIS Gully bachelor pad, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I think it is a little bit outmoded, actually. I think there's no fundamental reason why men can't care about things in the home. And I think that you talk to interior designers in this day and age and many will tell you that, look, the idea that the wife is driving all the design decisions is old fashioned. Men are very involved and men care about design and care about these decisions. I don't know, you can wade into all kinds of potentially problematic and dicey territory because this is gender, it's society, it's economics, it's history. I think for the time being, I'm just going to celebrate that men are sharing their clean, well appointed apartments on TikTok. I think that's probably a good thing and let's maybe just leave it at that.

[Dennis Scully]

Absolutely. Emphasis on tidy. I feel like the reputation that men have on social media platforms seems to be that they are immature slobs. And so I think this article is a big step up for that and I welcome it. Let's do some rebranding there. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a guide to Paris Design Week and a roundup of the latest showroom openings. We'll be back in a minute, but first a quick break with Anthem Smart Showering only from Kohler. You can design a showering escape that commands up to 12 water outlets, supports custom lighting environments to match any mood and allows for three levels of soothing steam set to music from personal playlists. Every moment asks the user to imagine when you take a shower, where does your shower take you? Explore Anthem smart [e-mail] showers for over 20 years, Laloy has made its name in home textiles and customer service. Members of the trade have dedicated Laloi sales representatives to answer their needs with an easy to use website samples, fast shipping from Laloy's warehouses, access to exclusive trade only collections and showrooms across the country. Learn more@leloi rugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com for an inside look at all things Laloy. Follow Eloy on Instagram and TikTok. And we're back. I am joined now by world renowned potter and retail giant Jonathan Adler. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

[Jonathan Adler]

Thank you so much. It is great to be here.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, it's a pleasure to have you back. You know, we talked on this show back in 2018, if you can believe that. Seems like a lifetime ago and at the time there was an undertone in some of what you were saying that suggested there were a lot more things you wanted to do and make and get into that you couldn't in your current situation. So here we are today with some big news that perhaps is going to make some of those desires of yours possible. Tell us the big news.

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, the big news is that we have new owners, partners for my company, which is fantastic news because it does exactly what I said I wanted to do and have always wanted to do, which is more, more, more. I'm a bit of a megalomaniac and I have an endless and restless desire to design more and more stuff. So, you know, I think this new partnership really enables me to continue my quest for more, more, more.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so how long has this conversation been going on? How long have this all been in the works?

[Jonathan Adler]

They've been burbling for seven or eight months. You know, these things take a minute to get across the finish line. And it's complicated. And it's funny, I think, you know, outsiders probably don't really understand the machinations of the business of home, but this seasoned retail veteran gets it. And, you know, it was a good process, good conversations, and, you know, we all needed to align to make sure that everybody kind of gets what they need. And I think we're at a fantastic place with really talented new partners.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, interestingly, I saw online, many people reacted to this as though it was the first time that private equity has had any involvement with your operation. But nay, nay, because going all the way back to 2008, you received your first private equity investment and so you've actually had a private equity partner for all these years.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yeah, it's not my first rodeo. And I try not to ever look at comments online because who would comment online? Yeah, for a host of reasons. Usually when I do look at comments online, it's to find hilarious new insults about me. And I found some doozies, which is really always good for a chuckle. Uh, but yeah, I've. I've been working with another private equity firm for a long time, and people have strange feelings, very fixed ideas about what private equity means, but it really can mean many, many different things for me. My former partners, who I absolutely loved, have been essential in enabling me to build my platform, make more and more and more stuff. I think the challenge of working with private equity, I think why it gets some people all into Twitter, is because people think that private equity is going to deracinate a designer or brand. And I understand why they think that. That's happened in many, many times. And I think that's something that I've always been hyper conscious of in my Case my company, my design ethos is very, very eccentric and very personal. You know, I have a merry band of fellow designers who work with me and do all the work and I just take credit for it. But the truth is that the output of my company and my body of work is a very, very eccentric portrait of me and my head. And it is a challenge to maintain that idiosyncrasy and that personal vibe when you're also running a business. But I think I've. I'm proud to say that I think I've done a really good job of balancing that, the need to run a capitalist enterprise and keep it very, very creative and very, very personal and kind of keep it carny. So it's like, how do you, how do you keep it? We're a great mix of corporate and carny.

[Dennis Scully]

So tell us what that means to keeping, keeping it carny, because I, I love that notion.

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, I, you know, for people who don't know the phrase carny, it's like so derisive way to describe carnival workers who are freakish outsiders. And I think that describes anybody who's a designer. You know, you need to be a creative oddball to want to be a designer. It's not like being a lawyer, investment banker. So. And I think if you, if you look at the output of my company, it is eccentric. So the balance of corporate and Carnegie, I think another way to say that that might be a little easier for people to understand is creative capitalist. I am a creative capitalist. I want to be very, very creative, which means being completely unbridled and free thinking and eccentric, personal, trying to push the envelope and make really strange things that are new and different. And I am a capitalist. And in my case, capitalism has really enabled me to be ever more creative. So it doesn't work for everyone. I'm an extraordinarily lucky person, like extraordinarily lucky person for whom I'm a person who's been able to merge creativity and capitalism. And it's a one plus one equals three situation. Results may vary. I've just been super lucky.

[Dennis Scully]

And at one point early in your career, you had imagined, envisioned perhaps a life of, of poverty and just going around, if I recall, just to trade shows and selling your wares on a rainy Saturday. But it hasn't worked out that way. You've been this successful capitalist, as you say.

[Jonathan Adler]

I've often said that when I quit my day job to become a potter, I thought I was giving up on any money, any normalcy, and I imagined a Life for myself, as you said, hawking my wares at rain soaked craft fairs on the weekend, which was a reasonable thing to assume. You know, that's what. That's what a potter's life is. And that's what I thought I was embarking upon, but very unexpected, very unplanned for. And when I started, I was a true outsider. And as I have become, you know, more of an insider, my challenge is to maintain the outsider sensibility while being an insider.

[Dennis Scully]

Which I think is the challenge for any artist who becomes a successful business person. Yes.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yeah, I think that's the deal. And one of the things I love about being a designer versus an artist is that as a designer, in a funny way, the stakes are lower because you have more latitude to try things and fail. You can speak in different voices. And if you're an artist, I think you actually have to be even more strategic. You need to stay in a very narrow bandwidth so that your work is identifiable. You can't be too prolific. In a funny way. Art is much more about marketing, in my opinion, than design. I have the latitude to try a million different things and fail and be prolific and speak in different voices. So I'm. You said artist. I would never say that. Maybe I am an applied artist and I'm grateful for that role.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. Well, I'm curious in that context. I want to come back to the deal, but I want to stay with what you were just saying, because part of what I think has been so remarkable about what you've built is you've built a very recognizable and successful brand. And that is incredibly hard to do. And I think that is why this new company, who is expert in building out great brands, found investing in you so appealing. So how have you done it? What do you think has been the key to your successfully navigating the many challenges over the years and building this strong brand?

[Jonathan Adler]

Oh, you. That's very sweet. I think that you're right. I do think you're right. And it's what I said before, the challenge is finding the balance of creativity and capitalism. It really is. I try to stay very, very insular, believe it or not. I try to not pay too much attention to trends. I think the way I have stayed authentic, and I think I have, as as audacious as that sounds, is by being insular. You know, I'm on. I'm on kind of a very specific path. And it's funny, the word. I'll just pivot and talk about the word authentic, which, like so many words today, they mean the exact opposite of what they sound like. So now if I hear. If I hear someone say authentic, I just say I. In my mind, I just think, oh, inauthentic. So that is the challenge.

[Dennis Scully]

No authentic person would refer to themselves that way.

[Jonathan Adler]

So even now, I'm. Now I'm trapped in this sort of meta space. Having just called myself authentic. What does it all mean? And funnily enough, that way, I see the analysis that I just applied to this conversation is emblematic of kind of how. How I grapple with my company. I do a lot of tossing and turning and thinking about things, and I do have kind of a. I always have a meta dialogue with myself about what it all means. I'm constantly trying to create a taxonomy of things and understand what I'm doing. And the funny thing is that I hope that if people look at my work and check it out, they really feel a lightness of touch. You know, I want it to feel spontaneous and improvisational and very, very light, but it requires a lot of thought and heavy lifting to create that vibe. So I guess what I'm saying is, you know, authentic often means inauthentic. My lightness of touch requires a lot of deep thought. And I hope this is not too meta for y'all. But it's funny. I always think about the Purdue chicken ad that I think was from the 80s, and the tagline was, it takes a tough man to make a tender chicken.

[Dennis Scully]

That's right. Frank Perdue.

[Jonathan Adler]

Frank Perdue. And I think that describes what I do. It takes a brooding dude to create a light and lively vibe.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so coming back to the finances in all of this. So GF Capital, who invested in you back in 2008. This seems like an unusually long time for a private equity company to stick around. Often it's five or six or seven years, and then they've got to kind of cash out. So it seems like they hung around. I guess they must have enjoyed your company and the business. Was there a time where they came to you and said, hey, listen, we got to move on. We got to find the next partner? Or, how did that all go down.

[Jonathan Adler]

For people who don't really understand the private equity markets? And. And in the past, I would have included myself among that cohort. Many private equity funds have different covenants, so they have limited time frames in which they need to stay in an investment and move on. And we sort of went through two cycles, so, you know, it sort of needed to cook a little bit longer, and then we found perfect partners.

[Dennis Scully]

So what do you imagine specifically you're going to be able to really do now with these new partners? And what did these new partners suggest that they want to expand into with you?

[Jonathan Adler]

I think every new relationship brings new opportunities. And that sounds sort of like a banal thing to say, but it's true. So it was just so important to me to find a partner who would enable me to continue my journey to use an overword and also keep it, keep it fresh upstairs and find opportunities that complement it in categories that I might not have the bandwidth to go into myself.

[Dennis Scully]

And are there specific things in your mind right now that you're wanting to create? You talked a little bit about more extensive tabletop and it also sounds like, I don't know if design services and more getting deep into the home is what's most top of mind for you. Yes, kind of just yes to all that.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yes to all that. It's, you know, I think that there are opportunities and all that. I do think that we are, there are certain home categories that we're under penetrated in. And right now my megalomaniacal mania is limited to the home, but who the hell knows where it will lead next? When you're, when you're a megalomaniacal monster, you don't really see limit. So for now it's focused on the home. And then who knows, maybe we'll expand into other lifestyle categories that are still a reflection of my vibe.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, that's interesting you say that because the home industry has certainly had very big upswing during COVID and then the subsequent downswing, and this past year was challenging for many in the space. What does the landscape look like for you? How has it been for you and what are some of the challenges you've been facing?

[Jonathan Adler]

I think the positive thing is that because we are so insular, I think in a strange way that insulates us from broader trends because we have a very specific voice that people come to and it's not generic. I think the more generic you are, the more you are impacted by overall trends, if that makes any sense. I mean, certainly, certainly things like housing starts matter in the world, but I, but I have not really been impacted by the downturn that I've seen in other home brands. So I'm very lucky. Hashtag blessed.

[Dennis Scully]

So why do you think that is? Why do you think you haven't benefit? I mean, you sell sofas, right? Why haven't your sofa sales been hit? Or have they and just other categories have overcompensated for that?

[Jonathan Adler]

It's probably a blend that has enabled us to stay buoyant because we are in so many different categories. And, you know, as I started out as a super junior varsity player in this game, and now I have a varsity squad who's looking at the metrics and figuring it all out while I just float above and take credit for everything. So maybe, you know, they. Maybe the varsity planning squad just knew what time it was, but the mix seems to have been right to keep us buoyant.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you brought on a pretty savvy CEO years back, and that seems to have been quite a good move for you.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yeah, absolutely. It's really. This is so stupid and banal to say, but it really is about the people. It's funny. Doing this process has enabled me to be a little bit more reflective and take stock. And I see around me for the most part, my sort of inner circle of people has been with me for 15 years, some as much as 30, and I started like 31 years ago. So it is really the peeps who keep it going and who. It's a. It's just a very creative, collaborative environment. And that was the other thing that was super important to me in this transaction is like, I love what I make and I love making it with my fellow travelers. So that was crucial that we keep the vibe and the group thriving.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. When people hear news like this, they think, oh, boy, there goes the neighborhood. Oh, the company will never be the same. Oh, we loved Jonathan Adler. Too bad he's going away. Now. What do we say in response to all of that? You're not going away, it sounds like. But you tell me.

[Jonathan Adler]

No, I couldn't be less going away, but no, I think it's so weird. No one really understands how anything works or how the sausage is made. And I think, broadly speaking, the world can be divided into people who approach life from an attitude of resentment or an attitude of gratitude. This is so self help. I do apologize, but it's sort of true.

[Dennis Scully]

Hold on. My incense just went out. I'm gonna relight it. Hold on one second. Here we go.

[Jonathan Adler]

This is not my. I'm like a grizzled cynic, but I do kind of believe this. That's kind of how I see the world. And when I see people who are resentful, I think they should flip the switch and understand that wherever you are in life, there are going to be people who have more than you, people who have less than you. And you should appreciate what you got.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I think as we talked about earlier, I think people hear private equity coming into a business and they have a set of assumptions. And listen, we spent a lot of the past couple of years talking about some private equity deals that didn't work out well. And we certainly know some of the people involved and Mitchell Gold and all of that, and that was unfortunate. But again, we should remind people you've had a private equity investor since 2008. So, I mean, this is honestly one of those examples that we look for that sounds like it worked out reasonably well and you were pleased and they were pleased and they found a good exit. And, and this is a partner that you have now that has a history of really investing in great brands. Laura Ashley was a company that their former company just acquired and is an example of sort of a great brand that has been given new life, despite the fact that Laura Ashley's actually been out of the picture since the mid-1980s, if I recall.

[Jonathan Adler]

It's funny you should bring her up. I haven't thought about Laura Ashley in a minute. But, but you know, she. It's funny, in the life of a brand, she went from being all the rage to not being all the rage, to be considered overly twee. But the important thing is if you step back and look at what she did, it was really specific and distinctive and personal and very committed. And I think things like that, I'm not shocked that it's going to come back because it was unique. As for private equity, again, people are. No one really understands anything. And I certainly think no one understands what goes on within companies. There's, I think, a cliche that says you never really know the truth about anyone's marriage. And I think the exact same paradigm applies to companies. When you look under the hood, probably nothing is as you think it is. And private equity relationships can mean different things. There are some private equity firms who are notorious for strip mining businesses. And there are some private equity firms who are beloved for supporting and building businesses. I think I have a very good marriage.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, interestingly, your new private equity partner talked about the opportunity that I'm talking about. Cory Baker, who's one of the managing partners in this firm that's invested in you. He sees an opportunity to expand price points. He thought, hey, we can even create some lower price points and bring in even more people to the brand. And I can understand his desire to go there. Does that make sense with your thinking?

[Jonathan Adler]

Absolutely. I think the more the merrier. And in my endless desire to make more and more stuff, I really want to meet people where they are. God I sound so Oprah ish and cliche riddled, but I mean it. So everything I say, maybe I'm just a very banal person, but I mean what I say. I want to meet people.

[Dennis Scully]

Don't at all think so, but I.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yes, you know, I see no reason why if someone. And if someone's budget only, you know, if someone's budget doesn't allow them to splurge on something, it doesn't mean they should get something lousy. So I want to make great stuff and I want to make it at different price points. And I like to be, you know, as I said, I sort of like to be unmoored from things and live in a dream world. And some of the things I make are cost a fortune and that's because that's what they need to be. But then I also think, think there can be amazing stuff at a lower price point, as we all know. But why not make it better still? So that's a perfect example of how private equity might serve to help me do more and bring it to more people and I hope make really groovy stuff that brings style and joy into people's lives.

[Dennis Scully]

So if this works out as hoped, if we look forward a few years from now, now what would we see? That said, hey, this was a really great deal. Will it be more international locations as you suggested earlier? Will it be the Jonathan Adler paint line that I think you referred to at one point? I mean, you tell me.

[Jonathan Adler]

I think the best thing that could happen in 5 years is if you just experience more JA in your life and don't think too much about the corporate wranglings that got it there. That's. That's kind of for us to do. And I want people in the world just to enjoy the output of all them wranglings and creativity. Takes a tough man to make a tender chicken.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly, exactly. You and Frank Perdue, I have so many parallels between you and the Gray Same hairdo man. He was a legendary figure, no question. Well, I mean, listen, this all sounds great. This all sounds positive. I'm sure that it was challenging, as you say, getting this over the finish line and lots of back and forth and lots of papers to sign over the last few months, I'm sure. But congratulations to you and I hope it leads to wonderful things.

[Jonathan Adler]

Thank you so much. It's always lovely to speak to you and I'm super excited to roll up my sleeves and keep making more pops.

[Dennis Scully]

And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred?

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, well, sadly, 2024 was the final year that our editor in chief, Caitlin Peterson did her column the 50 States Project, where every week on Friday she would publish an interview with an interior designer from a different state in our great nation. She did it for five years, which is a lot, a lot of content and a lot of great conversations with designers. And you know, first of all, I think it's very admirable not to just talk to the same, you know, 50 designers that most people talk to who are famous in New York and LA and really like highlight people in communities that don't always get published in Architectural Digest and El Decor. That was cool, but it was also really cool. Great to just get these really in the weeds, interesting conversations about, you know, the challenges designers were facing. So this is just sort of a, you know, an appreciation comment and I would urge people to check it out, look into the archives, take, take a look at, there's just so many fascinating conversations in there and it's definitely sad to see it go.

[Dennis Scully]

I don't know if Caitlin feels like it's sad to see it go, but yeah, it's a lot of work. It's been a lot for her to put together and I, I'm hoping that we're going to have Caitlyn Caitlin on the show soon to talk about it. But it has been a remarkable accomplishment and as you said, I particularly appreciate the way that she was able to shine a light on so many lesser known designers, many of whom have become much bigger names since being in that column. So shout out to Caitlin and the incredible work that you did there.

[Fred Nicholas]

What caught your eye this week, Dennis?

[Dennis Scully]

You know, one of the things that blew up over the holidays that we didn't get to talk about that I, I sort of wanted to get your take on because we spent so much of last year talking about the dupes. Was, was this, was this Walmart Birkin bag, the working bag, if you will. Some remarkably, it looks remarkably similar to the Birkin bag, yet it's just about $100. And I gather that Walmart has since taken it down off the website because there was so much controversy around it. I say how could there not be and why would they think there wouldn't be? But I'm curious your reaction to the whole thing.

[Fred Nicholas]

How many did you get for Christmas, Dennis? How many work ins did you get?

[Dennis Scully]

I worked as quickly as I could to place Those orders.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, maybe the work in will now be this like weird collector's item. I don't know. It's fascinating. Dupes are so weird and interesting. I mean, I think certainly like high end, you know, Birkin copies have been a thing we've been talking about for a long time, but it's just, it's a different order of magnitude and Walmart is selling one. You know, I, I, I think there's a lot of implications to this kind of thing. I think we're going to see more of it. You know, Walmart pulled it down, but I'm sure TEMU won't be as scrupulous around it or some other, you know, cut rate seller. So, you know, I, we probably don't have time to get into all the implications here, but I'm certainly fascinated by that and I'm, I'm curious to see, you know, what, what comes of it especially, especially if that kind of thing starts coming for home more aggressively. What was your takeaway?

[Dennis Scully]

No, it was just, what was fascinating to me was to see people's reaction to it. One of my favorite songs from the musical Chicago is the song he had it Coming and it felt like, oh, this is justified because look how ridiculously expensive Hermes has made its bags. And so it seemed as if it was a victory for the people, that there was, it was another sign of the revolution and that people just felt empowered and they felt that Hermes just had it coming to them. And look how expensive and interestingly. And I didn't know that you could buy Hermes Birkin bags, vintage bags on the Walmart site. Who knew, at container store for $30,000. Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know the whole thing. As you say, it's probably a bigger conversation, but I was, I was just struck by both the introduction of that bag and then the response to the introduction of that bag. And with a big name like Walmart selling it, it just got a lot of attention.

[Fred Nicholas]

And Walmart is definitely a defender of the people. No question in my mind that Walmart.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. No, they are, they are the voice of the people. Walmart, no question about that. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or, or take a workshop, visit us [e-mail] if you want to get in touch with the show, write to [e-mail] this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.