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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: RH's latest earnings report. Plus: A check-in from Copenhagen's 3 Days of Design
00:58:10
Host Dennis Scully and BOH editor in chief Kaitlin Petersen discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Fred Nicolaus joins the show to discuss his findings from the 3 Days of Design festival in Copenhagen, Denmark.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on, Fred's gonna join us from Copenhagen to talk about three days of design. But first we're gonna catch up on the news, including RH's latest earnings report, a housing market check in, and this year's El Decor a list. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes editor in chief, Caitlin Peterson. Hi, Ca.
- [00:32]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, Dennis. How you doing?
- [00:34]
Dennis Scully
I'm doing great. Thanks so much for stepping in. I really appreciate it.
- [00:38]
Caitlin Peterson
Thanks for having me back.
- [00:39]
Dennis Scully
It was so kind of you to step in for the very first show I was not on. Since we launched this show, it wasn't.
- [00:45]
Caitlin Peterson
The same without you.
- [00:46]
Dennis Scully
I'll tell you, that was a big moment. I really appreciate it. You just got back from Chicago. Yes. You were at the design Social pop up in Lake Forest.
- [00:55]
Caitlin Peterson
I was. It was a great time. We had beautiful weather. Lake Forest Academy is the dreamiest setting. You actually kind of walk in and you're like, God, kids go to school like this. My high school had linoleum floor, but.
- [01:09]
Dennis Scully
You know, fine high school was pretty traumatic for me. So I, you know, I don't even think we want to get into that. Caitlin.
- [01:14]
Caitlin Peterson
Well, they had the most stunning molding and fountains and gardens. Anyway, I also had a great talk with Tom Stringer. He showed the audience, step by step, sort of the inner workings of his design presentation, how his firm is communicating visually with clients, each phase of the project. And it was just a really cool kind of peek behind the curtain at how someone at the top of their game is helping communicate their vision to clients.
- [01:42]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, Tom was a great guest on the show and I'm sorry that I missed your talk with him. I'm sure it was a good one.
- [01:49]
Caitlin Peterson
Well, let's take a look. Back at Monday's show, you had an absolutely wonderful conversation with the British designer Emma Sims Hilditch. I feel like we've been talking a lot about the cross pollination of designers in the US and the uk and I liked the way the two of you really started to break down what's the same and what's totally different about working across the pond.
- [02:09]
Dennis Scully
Yes. And I think there's often so much debate about what really is different and how people perceive interior designers over in the uk. Emma is a delightful designer who really tells this charming story of starting a curtain making business on the kitchen table and has now built quite a sizable and rather impressive firm with lots of different layers and partners. And honestly, I couldn't help but think of the aforementioned Tom Stringer when I was talking to her, because Emma has clearly defined a path for the principals of the firm to continue the firm long after she is gone. And I know that Tom was always very focused on that himself.
- [02:59]
Caitlin Peterson
I loved her take on having an office that is, like, tidy enough to be ready for an important guest, like, at any moment at the drop of the hat. I feel like I have always tried and maybe had middling success with living in my tiny Brooklyn apartment that way. But I really felt seen when she talked about, you know, saying, well, this is how we should be. You know, we should be ready to receive a guest at any moment. We should be prepared to present ourselves in our best light. That just really, that struck me as a kind of a, a wonderful way to think about your home base.
- [03:31]
Dennis Scully
Well, and to always be prepared for George Clooney to stop by. Yes, exactly. And I think to tease your staff that there's actually the hope that George Clooney might stop by.
- [03:42]
Caitlin Peterson
That just might be a little bit cruel.
- [03:43]
Dennis Scully
But I feel with Emma's former connections in the world of film and music, you know who's saying that?
- [03:50]
Fred Nicholaus
Right?
- [03:51]
Dennis Scully
So, yeah, no, it was a great conversation. I hope that people will enjoy it. There's a lot to be learned from her. And Emma runs a very tidy ship. So I think the lovely Mrs. Gully wishes that our house was a little bit more in George Clooney ready shape, but sadly not so. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Laloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. This spring, Laloy launched a new collaboration with beloved interior designer Jeremiah Brent. Featuring rugs and pillows with rich textures, bold lines, and deep tones, each collection is designed with a visionary outlook that encourages everyone to carve their own path. See them all@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow along on Instagram and TikTok at Laloi Rugs. And we're back. First up, Caitlin. Yes, the moment has finally come to talk about RH's earnings. Take it away it is.
- [05:12]
Caitlin Peterson
Last week, the luxury home retailer delivered its first quarter results, which leaned positive. Along with reporting a 12% year over year sales increase, the company is starting to see some good results from its UK outpost and new European stores. Dennis, I know you were listening. Late Thursday, as this call stretched into the evening, what stood out to you here?
- [05:34]
Dennis Scully
Well, I couldn't be more surprised about the UK outpost showing strong results. I wonder if it's the outpost itself or if they're just finally starting to see meaningful online orders come through Europe. I'm really curious about that because even he acknowledged that it's pretty far away from London, doesn't get a lot of foot traffic, and yet they are seeing a demand increase. So that was certainly interesting. And there was a lot of excitement about Europe in general. I felt like this was a very European centric call and lots of anticipation for Paris opening in September. The other UK London location coming in 2026, and Milan too. I know, I know what jumped out at you.
- [06:22]
Caitlin Peterson
I mean, I think the international stuff was so interesting. You know, he got into the logistics a little bit of. I feel like he called out the analyst community a little bit for betting against them so hard in Europe, as.
- [06:33]
Dennis Scully
He likes to do.
- [06:34]
Caitlin Peterson
Totally. You know, and he told an interesting story about, you know, a team there, a team of, you know, sales associates and employees in Europe who had met with the company leadership and sort of outlined the key things they needed to further the company's success in Europe. And I think he was very quick to point out that it wasn't smaller furniture, which is, I think, what everyone has been telling them, you know, your stuff is too big for Europe. And it was a lot more about logistics. It was about having product ready in time, being able to fulfill those orders in a timely way, and really being able to kind of meet customer expectations once they had selected an item. But it wasn't about the stuff itself. That actually stuck out to me as a very clear kind of planting of a flag saying, leave us alone, we've got the right inventory. Just let us do our thing.
- [07:22]
Dennis Scully
Well, I felt as though they were saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know that. We know that it appears to be too large for London apartments. Like, what else have you got?
- [07:33]
Caitlin Peterson
He also kind of said, we don't need to be for London apartments. Right. There are plenty of people spending six plus figures with us on houses that are large, you know, and maybe that's our customer, not the person in the tiny pied a terre.
- [07:46]
Dennis Scully
He was very excited about that. To be to be clear, what was interesting in relation to that was shrugging off some of this. Yes, yes, we know we've still got really high interest charges on all this debt that we're carrying. And again, they revisited the debt as we try to do every quarter, we revisit the fact that the debt is still there and it is still roughly between the Term loans and some of the other leasing arrangements. It's, it's like $3 billion. And that's, that's not nothing. And they acknowledge that. Yes, they're. They're paying some very high interest fees.
- [08:22]
Caitlin Peterson
And they wish 200 million a year.
- [08:25]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. So, so they feel the same way that I believe our president feels, that they wish the Federal Reserve would hurry up and lower interest rates so that they could lower rates on that interest. But they seem to suggest, again, oh, but we're going to skate through that because lots of other things are starting to happen in a positive way. So please don't pay attention to the $3 billion behind the curtain. Yeah, well, what I also thought was so interesting, again, just sort of digging into the numbers, the inventory level is still above a billion dollars. And so here they did. They're up 12% on the quarter, all these sales, and yet inventory didn't budge. Acknowledged that they've got 2 to 300 million. Oh, just 2 to 300 million in excess inventory. But clearly that inventory is not turning at a rate that they were hoping for. And that's part of why they announced that they were increasing the member discount, which is not insignificant. I don't know if that jumped out at you.
- [09:28]
Caitlin Peterson
I mean, so often that is sort of the key complaint of the design community when we're talking about RH is, you know, well, anyone off the street can get this membership. Now. They get the same discount that I do. And they talked about that a little on the call that actually moving this membership discount up to 30% is kind of more in line with or getting inching closer to a traditional trade discount with a wholesale manufacturer. It makes sense if you're trying to close the gap between yourself and a designer.
- [10:02]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. I mean, if that's what they had in mind, and I'm not sure that that's what's most top of mind for them. What was interest is also folded into that. For a time, they had been offering a 35% discount on outdoor, which we often talk about as what we perceive to be one of their strongest categories, and suggests that, again, they've got a lot of inventory to sell. So they were pretty aggressively trying to mark it down and not yet having great success there.
- [10:34]
Caitlin Peterson
The analysts seemed really hung up on that 35% membership rate for outdoor. And they kept saying, no, no, no, it's just for four or five weeks. That's just a sale, you know, for a brand that doesn't do sales. That was a sale.
- [10:48]
Dennis Scully
Right, exactly. For a brand that doesn't like to do sales. They're doing an awful lot of saly appearing things. But again, they make it pretty clear that they have to because this is, again, lots of excitement, but still a company that remains very overextended and needs a lot of this to work. Now that the level of detail that he went into about the upcoming Paris store and the white marble floors and the glass elevator going up to the restaurant and there's another restaurant over here, I mean, who's not going to be hopping a plane to Paris in September? I feel like. I feel like we all need to be there. So, listen, the funny thing was, by the end of the call, I thought, wow, what if this whole European thing works for different reasons than just the furniture selling well? Or like, what if the Europeans just find this a fascinating destination to go to? There's a view of the Eiffel Tower while you're eating at this restaurant. Like, maybe they love that. Maybe they start lining up in droves for that, and who cares if the giant furniture is moving or not moving? So by the end of the call, honestly, he had me far more convinced about the European expansion. And I've been pretty skeptical about the European expansion, but. But Paris could change my thinking about any number of things.
- [12:05]
Caitlin Peterson
Caitlin, this was a generally upbeat call. I think that's worth kind of doubling down on. I don't want to be one to drink the Kool Aid, but I definitely finished this call saying, good for you. Things are looking up. Yes, this may be a company that's still very overextended, but I think it's also a company that has a lot of exciting things on the horizon. And they seemed, you know, really, really primed to. To share as much as they could about what was coming next. What else stuck out for you?
- [12:37]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, and I know we're going to talk about this more later in the show, but he was. He was keen to. To shout out about the Palm Desert standalone interior design studio suddenly bringing in, they claim, a million dollars in revenue a month, and to give us the perfect segue for the conversation we're about to have. He still keeps driving home and all of this in the worst housing market we' decades. And so I think he's somehow trying to continue to lower expectations and talk about the difficulties of the reality that we're in, but still sounding much more upbeat. And he was willing to sort of joke about the last earnings call that he had to take.
- [13:20]
Caitlin Peterson
I thought that was a nice starting point, actually, to say, whoops, that kind of went viral last time.
- [13:25]
Dennis Scully
Right. So he tried not to do that again. But we'll see interesting developments and we'll see what happens post Paris. All right, moving on. We're going to do a real estate check in. Home inventory is finally on the rise. But it looks like that's not enough to revive the housing market. New data shows that home sellers outnumbered buyers by nearly half a million in April, the largest gap going back to 2013. Sadly, as expected, the latest home builder sentiment numbers are nearing pandemic lows and, well, just there are so many negative things to point to. Caitlin and all this data. Where shall we start?
- [14:05]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, it's funny to see a headline, you know, for so long the housing market has been frozen because there weren't enough houses to buy. Supply of houses in general was low. Supply of houses that people actually want to buy is even lower. You get bidding wars, you get discouraged buyers like all these things that we've been talking about for a long time. And so it's funny to see a headline that says like the housing market is still frozen, but supply is not the problem anymore. It's just that none of you can afford to buy a house. It feels hard to find the silver lining in this one. But what do you think these latest numbers mean?
- [14:37]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, it's interesting that you referenced about the bidding wars, which you certainly don't hear about in the same way. And I couldn't help but think at the beginning of the year we asked a lot of people to make predictions about where things might go. And a good friend of the show, Peter Dunham, actually made some predictions around the fact that people, people won't be able to wait anymore, that life changes are going to force their hand. And I think finally that is turning out to be the case. I think that is why there is such an increase in supply suddenly. It's not anywhere near where it has been historically. But I do think life events are forcing people's hands and more homes are coming on the market. To your earlier point, they're just aren't enough buyers that are in good fiscal shape to buy those homes. Interest rates remain higher than many would like, near 7% on the 30 year mortgage rate and no relief from that. Today, we should say that we're recording this show just a couple of hours after the Federal Reserve, to nobody's surprise, came out and said that they're not changing rates and they might not be lowering rates anytime soon, which the market is more and more adjusting itself to. So that big lever is not one that can easily be pulled. So I think a lot of this housing discussion remains mired in much of the same sort of. Again, at one point in the show, I think I described it as sort of this cauldron of negativity. I think we're still in that darn cauldron because we just don't have enough buyers that are in good enough shape. Rates are still too high. And even though we have seen prices come down because there is more supply in the markets and some of the hot markets that we've talked about in the past, Nashville, Austin, certainly those have come off the boil in a major way, but it still doesn't seem to be enough to move the needle.
- [16:39]
Caitlin Peterson
I think one of the interesting reports to come out was just that home prices are up more than 50% in the last five years. I think I've been talking to designers about what that means in terms of, you know, you talk to designers about the cost of furnishings going up, but they're coming on the heels of the cost of a home being more, the cost to build being more. And I think everybody's just getting squeezed into really uncomfortable shapes, you know, trying to. Trying to get folks into a home that they love and into a home that feels good.
- [17:10]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, and I feel like we've talked recently about the high end of the housing market doing somewhat better in some markets and that's been the silver lining for designers. But even that doesn't stand out in the midst of all of it doesn't.
- [17:27]
Caitlin Peterson
Shimmer the way it used to. Right.
- [17:30]
Dennis Scully
Well, and there's lots of reasons we don't need to go into all of the unpleasant things that are going on in the world at the moment, but lots of reasons for people to feel like they want to wait a little while. And I think we're continuing to. To see that, unfortunately. So the check in on housing still not so great. That seems to be the takeaway message, but hopefully better news to report in the coming quarters. In the meantime, let's move on and talk about the Eldecor A list which just came out.
- [18:01]
Caitlin Peterson
Absolutely. So the magazine's 15th annual roundup of top architects and designers is out now with a number of familiar faces and some new names making their debut this year. You spoke with Stelline and Elisa from Elle Decor on the podcast recently and they were talking about their plans for the brand, which I believe included this tentpole list. With that sort of echoing in your mind, what did you make of this list when you saw the debut well.
- [18:27]
Dennis Scully
You know, they talked a lot about wanting to make these designers to hold them up as real celebrities. And I thought that the way that they put this photo shoot together, it was very reminiscent, I'm sure, somewhat deliberately, of a Vanity Fair Oscar issue and having all of them posing together, I thought it was a great image. I thought some of the photography was really fun. Subsequently, they've put up a lot of fun videos with cute interviews with a lot of the A listers. And so I think the celebrity treatment is well underway.
- [19:08]
Caitlin Peterson
There were some interesting new firms gracing the list. Were there any names that caught your eye here, Dennis?
- [19:14]
Dennis Scully
Well, who knew that Summer Thornton wasn't already on the A list? I was. I was surprised by that. If you had asked me, I would have said, of course she is.
- [19:22]
Caitlin Peterson
Of course she is.
- [19:23]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, but. Right, but. And same with Annabelle Selldorf. Oop, Did I say already that she was an A lister? Well, she is now, and I'm. I'm so relieved about that. And darn it, it's standing room only at the Frick. And well done, Annabelle. You deserve that. So good for her. What jumped out to you?
- [19:40]
Caitlin Peterson
What actually jumped out to me was how big this list is. You know, it's organized at least online, as newcomers. There are nine. The regular list has 102 firms on it, and then there's a separate list of titans, which I think is just, you know, was a way to bring some fresh faces into the list. A few years ago, they pulled some folks off and called them, you know, eldercore titans of design. There were 34 firms there. And so you just see just kind of the sheer volume of it kind of in parallel with knowing how many people want to be on that list and are not was just a really striking way to consume it for me.
- [20:17]
Dennis Scully
Well, so speaking of people who want to be on the list but aren't, Caitlin, it sounds like you've had some really interesting communication with some designers. You put up a post on social saying, hey, let's talk about these lists. And it sounds like talk they did. So where should we begin to share some of the feedback that you got?
- [20:38]
Caitlin Peterson
And I was asking kind of more broadly. Everyone seems to have one of these lists these days. There's the AD100 and the A list. Frederic has an IT list. The Lux has the Red Awards. House Beautiful, I guess, takes a slightly different take because it's got that kind of ever evolving Next Wave class each year with up and comers. But everybody's got some way of saying, you know, these are Our people and everybody sort of, I think, wants to be on that list. Maybe says they don't care, maybe says they care a lot, is a little skeptical or just confused about how that list gets made. My favorite message was from a designer. Also, everyone wanted to stay anonymous because no one wants to have a spicy opinion in case you're gonna get on the list next year.
- [21:18]
Dennis Scully
No one wants to ruin their chance. I get it.
- [21:22]
Caitlin Peterson
My favorite message was from a designer who wrote. What'd she say? She said, I think all of the designers are very talented and deserve recognition. But she said these lists feel kind of pay to play because PR firms help you land on those lists. And as someone without a PR firm currently, that's a tough pill to swallow. She also messaged me back a few hours later and wrote, but I should probably shut up because I want the awards, so I may be getting a PR person soon. So that to me felt like kind of the most refreshing, nuanced, balanced take on this. Right? That getting on a list doesn't just happen to you. It doesn't come out of nowhere. This is in some ways an investment these firms often have made in building brand recognition, hiring the right team to help them network. To get on the radar of these editorial teams, there is a lot of kind of calculated is maybe the wrong word, but there is a lot of effort that goes into this. Even if you're not exactly pitching like, hey, put me in on the A list. It's a funny dynamic at play here.
- [22:20]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, and I'm always a little nervous when people sort of say, pay to play. And we don't want to suggest that in any.
- [22:27]
Caitlin Peterson
You can't write a check to get on the A list.
- [22:30]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. So I mean, to your point, it sounds more like some people realize, hey, yeah, you might have to get a PR person or you might have to be regularly in touch with this group and going to events and being on their radar. And I think Assad, when he was the editor in chief at El Decor, talked about that. He said, you know, sometimes, yeah, if I haven't heard from you in a while or if I haven't seen some great looking projects, guess what? You might not be on the A list because, hey, what have you done for me lately?
- [23:02]
Caitlin Peterson
But I mean, that speaks to the investment, right? This isn't just a PR person. This is photographing your work in a magazine caliber way and sending it to that magazine usually. This is a collection of people who have gotten published or been kind of in contact about publishing projects lately. Which means you are sort of making that constant investment. Investment in showing your work in that way, and that's expensive. I got a lot of other messages that were sort of broader critiques of lists as a whole. I think there was some frustration about sort of the predictability of a lot of these lists, that they're largely the same every year, that there were only nine new faces on the Elle Decor A list this year, that if there's no sense of discovery, if you weren't inspired by discovering someone new, that it can get boring or feel stale. A couple people said they'd appreciate these lists more if they understood the criteria for being on them. Some suggested a new format. I think someone said, like, what if it was just fresh faces and legends only? Which is kind of. Someone should do that. You know, somebody. Somebody messaged me and said, like, actually, like, who is this for? Is this just a bunch of people in the industry talking to themselves? And that kind of stopped me in my tracks for a second, just thinking, you know, what is. What does this mean? What is this about? And who is this actually moving the needle for?
- [24:16]
Dennis Scully
Well, and what's your sense when you talk to designers about. Because we've had the conversation with a lot of guests on the show, hey, you're on the AD100. Tell me what it means. Tell me how clients perceive that. What's the. To your point, how does that move the needle? What does that do for you? I mean, what's your sense of all of that?
- [24:36]
Caitlin Peterson
I've never heard anyone say, well, this was terrible for business to start with.
- [24:40]
Dennis Scully
Worst thing that ever happened to me, getting on that El Decor A list. My life went straight downhil.
- [24:45]
Caitlin Peterson
So I posted this original thing on Instagram, and I got a ton of people. In addition to all of the hot takes and feedback, I got a lot of people saying, you know, what I really want to know is how this does change your business. Can you ask people who have been on the list what this means? So I posted again, trying to catch folks who had been on the list. You know, what did this do for you? Does this really catapult you into a new level of business? And a lot of people were really quick to point out that, yes, being on the list absolutely helps with potential clients. You start with sort of a different level of credibility. Someone wrote back that it. It validates your work, but it also validates your fees. Right? I'm on this list. I'm charging a lot. I'm allowed to charge a lot because I'm on this list. You know, that that can actually really ease the friction of some of those conversations. Just as many people wrote in to say that, you know, they had these experiences where maybe people they would have liked to work with, they found out later, didn't call them because being on that list gave people the impression that they couldn't afford you. And I thought that was really interesting. No one had ever really said that to me before. That none of those designers, by the way, called and were like, can you take me off the list? But that there was this sense that maybe you look bigger or more expensive or more intimidating than you actually are, and that maybe you're losing some of those, like, bread and butter clients that you would have really loved to talk to on the phone. So I thought it was interesting. You know, it's not for everybody, but it was kind of interesting to have this discussion and kind of get a mix of pros and cons in my DMs for the day.
- [26:17]
Dennis Scully
It sounds like, for the most part, though, most of the designers would like to be on this list.
- [26:21]
Caitlin Peterson
100%.
- [26:22]
Dennis Scully
That's the big takeaway.
- [26:25]
Caitlin Peterson
I think there is nothing like a stamp of approval that comes somewhat by surprise and lets you know that you are excellent among your peers. Let's be honest, we all want that pat on the back. But I think, you know, you sometimes look at it and you think, like, why am I not there? Or what would I have to do to get there?
- [26:42]
Dennis Scully
And maybe what am I doing wrong?
- [26:45]
Caitlin Peterson
Right. That's a little more complicated.
- [26:47]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [26:47]
Caitlin Peterson
What do you make of all these, Dennis?
- [26:49]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, you know, I think the point about the PR discussion is an interesting one. And I've had some conversations off the record with some very well known designers who are not on some of these lists, and they say, you know, is it that I don't have a PR firm? Is it that I don't go to all these parties? Is it that I'm aloof and don't leave the house? And I say, yes, yes, it actually is that.
- [27:12]
Caitlin Peterson
It's the third one. Yeah, you've got to leave your house.
- [27:14]
Dennis Scully
Actually appear more often in public. But no, I think between the conversation with Stelline and Elisa and some of the conversations that we've had here, I mean, I think there are very clear steps that you could take to at least have a better shot of being on it. If, in fact it does mean something to you, I think it's fun when the issue comes out. Is it the industry talking to itself? Sure. It's always been that to a degree. But how fun and how fun that the industry dressed up. And Sean Henderson and Bunny Williams are holding onto some dogs. And I mean, right? What's not to love?
- [27:49]
Caitlin Peterson
I think there's something so perfect. I know you talked to Emma on Monday about how in America, designers are the stars. People brag about their designers. And as I was listening to that, I was actually thinking of these spreads in the magazine and what a celebration it is of, of people in our industry and just of this work. And that really felt, that feels like the right approach to me.
- [28:14]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no, I agree. I like this whole you want to celebrate designers and put them up on a pedestal. I'm all for it. And then we get them on our podcasts, Caitlin. And then we talk about the realities of it all. Right.
- [28:27]
Caitlin Peterson
That's the way it's supposed to be.
- [28:30]
Dennis Scully
Moving on. Similar topic that we're going to get into design industry education. So for the New York Times this week, Anna Fixon wrote an article that outlined the differences between architects, designers and decorators. For those in the industry. This may feel like a bit of a no brainer, but how much do everyday consumers know about each role? And again, I came into this article thinking, really, really, the New York Times reader needs an explanation of what an architect is relative to a designer.
- [29:00]
Fred Nicholaus
But.
- [29:01]
Dennis Scully
But it sounded more complicated than I first made it out to be. So what did you think?
- [29:07]
Caitlin Peterson
Well, I mean, to break it down a little bit, this article has the headline, truly, is there a difference between architects, designers, and decorators? It opens with this lovely anecdote about Naz Nozawa being a career switcher who was nervous to call herself a designer, mostly I think out of actually respect and reverence, sort of for the profession, for the job title and how her mindset evolved as her firm became more established. From there, it touches on the types of licenses that your professionals might have or need. And it takes a light tour through this sort of always touchy decorator versus designer debate before concluding with a reminder to do your homework before hiring a design professional. It's a funny article because I have a feeling, Dennis, that you and I both read this and were like, these are lovely quotes from designers that we love. And also, I learned zero things, right? Like, if you are doing this work, if you're in this corner of the world, none of this was revelatory. But the fact that this article needs to exist I think speaks to maybe, you know, I think, Dennis, you and I both talk to designers day in and day out who are trying to articulate just how much work it is that they're doing to articulate what exactly it is they do to clients. And I think this article is maybe a really interesting take on trying to define this really slippery make of it what you want it to be profession. And so in that way, it's actually a really interesting thought starter masquerading as what I thought was the most obvious article I'd ever read in my life.
- [30:41]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, again, I feel like a. Are we doing enough to support interior designers? And to clarify to your point, all of the hard work that they. That they do, and Fred and I, often on the show, we have these discussions about service pieces or the role that the design media industry at large has played over the decades of just explaining a lot of things to the.
- [31:12]
Caitlin Peterson
End user or not explaining a lot of things.
- [31:15]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, that's the question. So is part of the reason that this article needs to exist is because there's still not enough clarity around these specific roles? Or again, is it? So Nas and I were in communication, as you say, she's referenced in this article. She and I were having a DM communication about this article and talking about the fact that the issue that still does sometimes come up is the question of do I need to hire an architect and a designer and do I need a contractor and do I need a landscape and all of that? What's the team that I need to bring on and what are their different roles and is there meaningful overlap? Can somebody be substituted for somebody else? Can an interior designer with a license or some other kind of accreditation be a replacement for an architect or some other role? That seemed like a legitimate conversation.
- [32:14]
Caitlin Peterson
Well, and I think the answer to all of those questions is it depends, right? Who did you hire? Who are you bringing onto this job? What are their credentials? One of the cool things about this industry is that you can kind of amass all of these different specialties, or you can choose not to, and you can get super focused on the one thing you feel your firm does really well. And there's so much freedom in that. But I think it's also. That's really confusing for the end consumer. Right. I think there's a lot of fear hiring design professionals in doing the wrong thing, because when you make a mistake, it's very expensive. And I imagine even just getting the pros onto the job before you've brainstormed a single thing, just assembling your team is actually a place where you can make a lot of really expensive mistakes.
- [33:00]
Dennis Scully
No, exactly. And I think one of the big takeaways from this is that there still needs to be greater clarity. There's an opportunity to much more clearly define what it is designers do. And again, I look at you, asid, and I look at some of these other organizations and I say, what are we doing on that front to just create some more common language? Even Emma Sims Hilditch brought up the fact that even in Britain, they have the same challenge of lots of different firms have lots of different ways of charging. That's still one of the biggest obstacles. And again, that's still the opportunity for some to step in and say, well, we make it pretty clear what we charge because it's here it is. So I don't know, but I mean, this piece, which I was ready to be all snarky about, and instead I thought, you know, let's keep talking about this because we do need greater clarity in the industry. Well, I'm glad you agree with that, Caitlin.
- [33:56]
Caitlin Peterson
I do.
- [33:57]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [33:57]
Dennis Scully
Good. All right. Well, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including how to get performance reviews. Right. And advice from Sean Lowe on leveling up while staying small. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Leloy. For over 20 years, Leloy has been driven by strong foundations, a belief in beauty, a commitment to collaboration, and the quiet conviction that things made well and with purpose have the power to provide comfort for generations from product designs until the moment a rug arrives at your door. At Laloy, we're all woven together. Learn more@leloyrugs.com that's L O L L O I rugs.com and follow Loy rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And we're back. I'm joined now all the way from Copenhagen by business of home's executive editor, Fred Nicholaus.
- [35:09]
Fred Nicholaus
Fred, hi, Dennis. Funny to be on the guest side of the microphone here.
- [35:14]
Dennis Scully
Yes. It's a pleasure to have you on the show today, Fred. Thanks so much for making the time. I know it's late for you.
- [35:19]
Fred Nicholaus
It is. It's 11 o' clock here in Copenhagen, but the sun has not yet set, so here I am. You're no stranger to this fair city, am I right? I mean, listeners may know that Dennis had a Scandinavian furniture store back in the ancient days, Right?
- [35:35]
Dennis Scully
Yes. My early furniture training was at the what used to be the Scandinavian Furniture Fair, which used to be held in Copenhagen. Or Copenhagen, what's your preference there, Hagen or Hagen?
- [35:48]
Fred Nicholaus
I don't know. I'm gonna sound silly either way. I tried Hagen to be fancy, but I'm sure our Danish listeners are already correcting me on that one.
- [35:56]
Dennis Scully
I feel Hans Christian Andersen used to say Hagen, so maybe I should go with that. I don't know. But, yes, I used to spend a lot of time there because that was really the Scandinavian furniture capital. They did away with that show over time. But it's a great city and I'm so excited for you to be there.
- [36:13]
Fred Nicholaus
It's a wonderful city. And I'm podcasting live from the Royal SAS Hotel, which is now a Radisson, but I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one, but it's in some ways the birthplace of Danish modernism. Arne Jakobsen designed many pieces for Fritz Hansen that are in the lobby. And so I'm. I'm fully a Danish furniture historian now.
- [36:32]
Dennis Scully
At this point, clearly.
- [36:35]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, I'm honestly, I'm very. Copenhagen pilled. It is a wonderful city. Several people have described it to me as the biggest village in the world, and I think that very much holds true. It's a city, but it feels very intimate and small and charming on almost every block.
- [36:50]
Dennis Scully
So you're there for Three Days of Design, and we should tell people what that is, why you're there.
- [36:56]
Fred Nicholaus
Why am I here? Yes, well, Three Days of Design is a design festival here in Copenhagen. It started in 2013. Very small. It's just a few brands exhibiting at a warehouse together. And I think that the prior design festival had been cancelled in the years past. And so there was this desire to sort of restart Denmark on the international design scene. But it's grown a lot. I mean, in the course of just over 10 years, it's become really a fixture on the international design calendar. It's rapidly grown in size over the past few years, and it's become one of many places to see and be seen.
- [37:32]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's funny and we'll get to this, but hilariously so often when you talk about Three Days of Design, people often say, well, is it too popular already? Are too many people coming and is it replacing everything else? What did it start out being and how did it get to be such a popular show?
- [37:49]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, like I said at the beginning, it was just a showcase for a few Danish brands. And in the early years it grew, but not exponentially. No one has really been able to give me a super precise answer as to why it's gotten so big over the past five years. Some of the speculation is that in 2022, sort of in the COVID hangover period, Salone had to move their show from April to June. And three days of design, obviously is in June. So the speculation was that people just stayed over from Salone and because they're in Europe anyway, they went to. Why not such a good time? Sure, yes. They were high on the aperol spritzes on the Negronis and they decided to make their way up to. To Copenhagen. And Salone, I think, is kind of part of the discussion of why Three Days has gotten so popular. Because, of course, and we've talked about this on the show, there's a lot of chatter that Salone has become sort of overrun with fashion brands, that it's become overcrowded. There's a line to get into everything. The fair itself has its own issues. And so there's a desire to have another big fair in Europe that's a little more low key, a little more intimate, a little more palatable. And, you know, their three days was. And a lot of people have sort of transferred their affection from Milan to Copenhagen. That has certainly been the tenor of a lot of conversations I've been having today.
- [39:07]
Dennis Scully
Well, so does the town feel overrun by the show? I mean, are all the hotels filled? Are the streets crowded? I mean, does it have that sort of all the issues, to your point, that people raise about Milan? Oh, you have to wait on line for everything, just to see a chair in a church. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think.
- [39:25]
Fred Nicholaus
That is kind of like the fundamental tension. And I'll be writing a story about that this next week. So hopefully I won't scoop myself too much here. But, yeah, people love this show because it occupies this kind of Goldilocks zone. Copenhagen is a big enough city. It has a very rich design history with Fritz Hansen and Carl Hansen and Finn Ewell and all those companies. But it's not too big and it's not too hyped. And so people really like that. It's exactly in the middle, right in the sweet spot. And some of the concern is that it's going to become too popular. Too many people are going to do it and it's going to suffer from some of the same problems as Milan. And it's interesting, a lot of the conversations I've been having here today are people saying, I hope the fashion brands don't find out about this. There's a sense of Gucci is just outside the castle gates and we can't let them in. So I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure if I didn't wait in many lines today. It still felt very intimate. It's crowded. I mean, it's Copenhagen in the summer and so it's already sort of a tourist destination. And it can be difficult to tell. Everyone here is so stylish, so it's hard to know who's going to the show as opposed to just wandering about. But it's interesting. There have been many people who have told me, oh, this will probably be the last good year. I certainly think we're a ways from that. But the hotels are booked up. It feels like something that has certainly reached a new phase of popularity and busyness.
- [40:48]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I'm so glad that you could be there for the peak before.
- [40:51]
Fred Nicholaus
It all goes down all downhill after Fred from Business of Home.
- [40:54]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. Fred came to town and they closed it down afterwards. I mean, are there a lot of brand activations? Are there a lot of companies that we talk about? I saw smoke appearing over what appeared to be a Pierre Frey sofa in one image. I mean, are there a lot of.
- [41:13]
Fred Nicholaus
Activations Pierre Frey, or was it smoke being released? You know, I think it is a very different show from Saloni in that regard. There are, you know, of course brands are doing things, but it doesn't quite have the sense of spectacle that you might get. In Milan there are interesting activations. There are hay fills up their house and turns it into a restaurant and that's very cool. And there's this old odd fellows palace that gets turned into an exhibition hall of sorts. But it is a little bit more low key. I think it's just sort of in the national character of Denmark and particularly of Danish design to be a little bit more about very slow evolutionary steps. The big heritage brands, they don't get hyped artists from the international scene to build a giant head of Carl Hanson to put in the parking lot. It's a lot more very fine refinements made to a classic design. And one of the interesting things about the show actually is that it's not a place where everyone releases new product. Certainly Fritz Hansen has released a few new products, Carl Hansen has released a few new products. But a lot of the brands that show at these other big international festivals have already released new things. At Neocon, for example, or something new at Saloni or Milan. Several people told me that part of the reason for that is that you put this product out and then immediately people go on vacation. Everyone in Sweden is Going to the mid summer holiday. There's a lot of summer holidays in Europe. They take their summer vacations very seriously here. And so there's a sense of no one's in the mood to plop down tens of thousands of dollars on a big order or anything like that. So it's been described to me as a show more about relationships than spectacle. And at least in my experience that's been true. But I have not yet seen this smoke over Pierre Frey. So maybe you're more in tune with Three Days than I am at the moment.
- [43:07]
Dennis Scully
Well, I know that Ben Reynard from El Decor has been running around with you in some places. I think it's something that I saw on Ben's social media.
- [43:17]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, Ben let me take a picture of him for his Instagram feed, which was definitely an honor. It was a heavy responsibility.
- [43:23]
Dennis Scully
But you know, I wonder from the coverage perspective, I mean, so often it was come to Copenhagen to be inspired and it was less about seeing, to your point, a lot of product and more about, oh, let us show you the process, let us get you inspired and tell you sort of more about our story. Is it a lot of that?
- [43:44]
Fred Nicholaus
I think that's absolutely right. And I think one of the big changes in getting a higher profile, more brands and more attendees is that I think historically it was a way to get into the Scandinavian market. And that's still the case for some brands that are showing. You have a Swedish brand who wants to be in Denmark, or you have a brand from Southern Europe that wants to be in Scandinavia and they come here specifically to target that audience. But what has changed is that there's like a lot of international, you know, there's an international audience for the show. There's people from South Korea, certainly a lot of people from America. I saw a lot of familiar faces in the streets today, people from Australia. And so people come to three Days to be introduced to an international audience and build relationships sort of on an international level. And as you were saying, it's more a sense of being inspired, meeting people, setting up a connection that they hope will pay off later. It's not a transactional show like High Point maybe used to be. It's also interesting too. Another kind of strange component of it is that that unlike a lot of shows that have been built up over the years, there's no one central fair. It's not like icff, which anchors New York Design Week or Salone, which anchors Milan Design Week. It's a very dispersed festival. And I think that certainly brands like that because they don't have to spend all this money to build up a giant exhibition, only to tear it down a week later. It's less expensive. People come to them. You also get these more interesting activations, like people rent out what wouldn't be a boutique jewelry boutique normally and turn it into an exhibition. So you get lots of interesting things like that. A lot of people were telling me this is the new model for trade shows, is not a giant festival that costs a lot of money and is unsustainable, and it's more about occupying a city. So they may be saying that just simply because that's where we are and that's what's exciting to them at the moment. But I do sense there's a little bit of momentum around that, for sure.
- [45:35]
Dennis Scully
Well, as you and I have talked about, when I was in London and I was with some German and French press, we had this discussion about Milan vs. Deco off in Paris in January, and thinking about how people wanted to line up their calendars and whether, as we've just been talking about whether Milan was getting too crowded or too much, and they were looking for some show that felt easier, more manageable. I don't know if Copenhagen is rising to that. I also don't know if it's a show where we imagine the same level of designer participation as we see at Deco off in Paris, for example.
- [46:18]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, that's a good point. I haven't seen that many American interior designers in the streets here. I've seen a few and I've spoken to a few. And I think that they see this as a little bit of an opportunity to connect with a brand that might be unknown in the States. There are some designers here for sure, but I think it's in as much as it comes at a convenient time outside of the buzz of Salonia and High Point, it's also in the summer, and a lot of designers are on summer vacation or are dealing with their kids. And so it is difficult, I think, to make it out here during this time. I think American designers are a desirable audience. And I think that certainly brands come here hoping to connect with those designers. And it certainly did happen. I spoke to a few people who said they were connecting with Americans at the fair. It's also, you know, the American press is here, as you mentioned. Ben Reinert, Hannah Martin from AD is here as well. A lot of the design media, Fred.
- [47:13]
Dennis Scully
Nicholaus, I mean, the big guns. The big guns are there.
- [47:16]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, yeah. That's when, you know, it's over. It's too late. David Michonne. Of course. What would be a Thursday show if we don't shout out for scale? So really, the international design press is here. So even if the streets are not crowded with American designers, I think the American press is here and I suspect next year there'll be more designers.
- [47:35]
Dennis Scully
Well, I guess that's my question. I mean, is it the kind of show that designers should be hearing about and should be coming to in a big way and getting perhaps a dose of something that feels a little different than what they're normally encountering at shows?
- [47:49]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, it's a little bit difficult because I've been here for a day and I already want to stay for, like, you know, when you're talking to someone who's been wined and dined and is, you know, really, it's hard to leave. I'm, you know, come one, come all, I say. But there are brands here that you see that were not at all familiar to me. And I think it's also a place to connect more deeply with the Danish brands. I know Carl Hansen, I know Fritz Hansen. But when you actually come here, sure.
- [48:15]
Dennis Scully
I know the Hanson.
- [48:16]
Fred Nicholaus
I know they are Hanson, the Hansen twins, as they're called. These are brands that I think a lot of American designers know. But when you really come and experience them in their showrooms and you really see what they can do, you deepen your understanding of what they do. And then you get these cool, buzzy, little interesting, artsy Scandinavian brands that you probably would not have access to in the American market. I certainly think it's worth coming to. But again, keep in mind, American listeners, I have had a very fun 48 hours, so maybe take my advice with a grain of salt, but it is buzzy, it is hyped, and there are things to see here that you can't see anywhere else for sure.
- [48:50]
Dennis Scully
And as we said earlier, it is a very inspiring city. Great design is all around. Plus, I mean, if you've been meaning to pick up some George Jensen silver, I mean, by the way, hopefully you got the list of things I want you to pick up at George Jensen before you leave.
- [49:07]
Fred Nicholaus
I'll try and make a point of that. I did go buy some vintage pepper grinders today, so I've got that collection going. Yeah.
- [49:14]
Dennis Scully
Okay. Well, that's not quite the George Jensen list that I want you to pick up, but more on that later. Here, let's talk about brands and what you have seen and what's interesting that's going on from that perspective.
- [49:28]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, well, like I said it's not exactly a show where people debut tons of new stuff. And I also think that as much as this fair is on the rise, everyone I've spoken to has said, yeah, the macro economy is not where we want it to be. They're all, of course, nervous about American tariffs. They do affect these European brands, even if it is just the 10%. And a lot of them also have to deal with steel and aluminum tariffs. So all of them are a little bit in kind of conservative mode. And none of them are debuting tons and tons of new products. So what has been interesting is that while there are brands and aesthetics and colors and looks that you get here that are very unique, a lot of the companies are doing similar things as American companies. For example, outdoor is very heavily emphasized here. Almost every brand, even the sort of the more stoic heritage Danish brands, have a big outdoor presence, which is really interesting. Another thing that's popular is portable lighting. That is a huge category. Every brand is releasing some cool new take on portable lighting that is clearly working here in Europe as it is in America. So I suspect we'll see a lot more of that in the American market. And it's kind of fun to see how each brand does its own little thing. Fritz Hansen has a very conservative, very elegantly designed portable light. And then Tom Dixon has this one called Pose that's it's all chrome steel. It's very showy. So it's cool to see what each brand brings to the form factor because it is very clearly a popular in thing and everyone's trying it in that market.
- [50:55]
Dennis Scully
Is part of that an environmental push. And I feel like green design is spoken about much more in Scandinavia and other European countries than it is here in the US Is that a big theme or not really?
- [51:10]
Fred Nicholaus
No, it is. And it's interesting you should say that because that's been another big theme of these conversations, is that that you get so used to having these conversations in America where everyone feels a little bit cynical about sustainability and people talk about greenwashing more than they talk about actual sustainability practices. And here they take it very seriously. And there's a real sense of putting your money where your mouth is. You see brands actually making decisions around sustainability as opposed to just putting it in a marketing document. And so it's cool to see that and people are genuinely enthusiastic about it. I went to a. A presentation at hey Today and they were talking about there was this designer was explaining how they were designing this, what looked like a very upholstered chair, but Was made out of this special technical fabric that is just stretched in such a way that doesn't require any foam padding inside, which is very ingenious. A lot of brands have kind of these resale or reuse programs for Tense and has one where you can turn in a chair and they'll fix it for you in a variety of ways. It's. It is kind of inspiring to meet people who actually are serious about sustainability because sometimes you feel a little bit crazy talking about it, but they are making waves over here. Hopefully we'll catch up.
- [52:21]
Dennis Scully
Well, you feel as though the people themselves are living it when you're over there.
- [52:26]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, yeah, well, that's the thing. The consumer wants it. You know what I mean? I was having this conversation with a couple Danish people the other day and they were talking about sustainability in this very earnest tone and I was saying, well, haha, brands are. I was kind of bringing like a cynical take and they're like, what do you mean? Of course we should save the earth. And I'm like, yes, we should. You're right. Like I said, I've been very Copenhagen pilled, Dennis.
- [52:50]
Dennis Scully
So yeah, no, no, no. You're going to come back transformed. I can tell.
- [52:54]
Fred Nicholaus
Gonna ride my bike back to America.
- [52:57]
Dennis Scully
I can't wait to see what other issues are suddenly gonna be important to you. Well, I'm glad that you've had this experience. It sounds like it's had a big impact and it sounds like it was very worthwhile you going over there and seeing this show.
- [53:09]
Fred Nicholaus
It's a lovely show. And you know, I'm not just saying that because I'm in a good Copenhagen mood. I think it is definitely worth going to. And hopefully this won't actually be the last good year. I suspect it will not.
- [53:19]
Dennis Scully
Well, we look forward to having you back, but we very much appreciate you hopping on very late for you, so I'm gonna let you get to bed, but thank you.
- [53:26]
Fred Nicholaus
Thank you, Dennis. Great to be here.
- [53:33]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Caitlin, what caught your eye?
- [53:42]
Caitlin Peterson
What caught my eye is the collaboration of 2 Dunes Point Capital brands flooring company, luxury flooring company Stanton announced a licensed carpet collection with none other than Kravit. It's a 91 SKU collection of carpet rugs, stair runners. It comes out in July and according to the release, it is designed to accelerate high end Business for a select group of Stanton Distributors. Kravit was acquired by Dunes Point capital in late 2024. Stanton had been added to their portfolio in 21. And so I just thought it was really interesting to see how that shared ownership, you know, is kind of tiptoeing into some new synergies for those. These two brands.
- [54:23]
Dennis Scully
Yes, we'll have to. We'll have to dive into that and see what the, what these synergies actually are there. That's interesting.
- [54:30]
Caitlin Peterson
Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [54:31]
Dennis Scully
Well, a couple of things caught my eye. One of them being Bernie de La Quagne's beautiful new showroom at 200 Lex, which is quite impressive. And it drew attention to the fact that if you ride the elevators of the New York Design center these days, you'll see a big listing of the many, many textile offerings that are now on hand at 200 Lex. And for so long, Caitlin, I feel that so many in the industry said, yeah, yeah, the New York Design center, but, you know, they don't have the fabric brands, so are people really gonna be going there? And suddenly they do now, Boy, do they have a lot of fabric brands. And Thiebaud coming at the end of.
- [55:11]
Caitlin Peterson
The summer and Schumacher earlier this year.
- [55:14]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. And so. And our friend Peter Dunham opening up there.
- [55:18]
Caitlin Peterson
And Lauren Hudson's got a Wells Abbott out.
- [55:20]
Dennis Scully
Outpost Rose Uniacke is there. I mean, there's just a wide array. So I sort of feel as though everybody was wondering what the outcome of some of the Charles Cohen slash D and D building uncertainty would be. And it seems to clearly be that many more people are going to be moving to the New York Design center, and, and we'll see what that means longer term. But congrats to Bernie on that, on that beautiful new showroom of hers. The other thing that caught my eye rather unexpectedly because usually I'm pretty harsh on this company too, but. But Wayfair, believe it or not, has actually doubled in share price since the Liberation Day lows, as we refer to them, back in April. So 100% move in the. In the past few weeks. Weeks. And that was pretty striking. I wondered how much of that is tied to the fact that in just a couple of short weeks, the first ever Paragould location will be opening in Houston. Could it possibly be excitement around this new location? I don't know. What do you think?
- [56:29]
Caitlin Peterson
I mean, I think it's going to be interesting to see how Wayfair merchandise is this much higher end product. What it's to going from one year in business in the North Shore of Chicago with its first ever store. What do you expect from the assortment that's going to be popping up in Houston?
- [56:47]
Dennis Scully
Honestly, I'm really scratching my head about this.
- [56:50]
Caitlin Peterson
Okay, same.
- [56:51]
Dennis Scully
And I will tell you that when you ask Gary Freedom about it, he laughs his head off and says, yeah, good luck. I mean, to me that is the only sort of reasonable concept competitor in a space where a bunch of the high point brands could come together and in some meaningful way compete with him. We'll have to see. I'm quite tempted to head down to Houston, as hot as it will be at the end of June to check it out, just because I'm really curious. But I'm eager to reach out to a lot of the hype wing companies and see who's going to be there. But listen, there's another one coming sometime shortly after that, if I recall, in Florida, so we'll, we'll have to see. But, but Paragould, a name that Wayfair doesn't talk about very often, is in fact going to have a big retail presence. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.