← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: RH's rough day on Wall Street. Plus: Designers are embracing the renovation boom
01:07:19
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, GreenRow VP Jaimee Seabury joins the show to talk about Williams-Sonoma's sustainability-focused brand.
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- [00:07]
A
This is Business of home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Jamie Seabury of Williams Sonoma's newest brand, Green Row. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including Nordic knots big fundraise, RH's dramatic earnings call, and how designers are finding opportunity in a frozen housing market. To do all that, I'm joined by business of hall executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:36]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:37]
B
I'm doing great for. For once in our lives. RH had its earnings call in time for us to talk about it on the Thursday show. Hot off the presses, so I'm jazzed about that.
- [00:47]
A
Am I wrong to think they did it just for us? Am I wrong to think they moved the earnings release so that it could be on the Thursday show? I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
- [00:54]
B
I have a conspiracy theory, and it's not that I think that it was originally scheduled for April 1st, and I think or I saw it as scheduled for that. I think they moved it just to not be on April Fool's Day. What do you think of that?
- [01:06]
A
I think they wish it was an April Fool's actually, and we'll get into that. Sadly, it's serious, but I think they wish it was just an April Fool's joke.
- [01:15]
B
I remember there was, remember Liberation Day one year ago today. They literally moved it because that's when everyone else wished was on April 1st. But, yeah, good times. I wanted to quickly shout out an event that our colleague Kaitlin Peterson is gonna be doing in a couple weeks. If you are listening to and you are anywhere near Dallas, get thee to the Dallas market center on April 14th. Because Caitlin's doing this cool business accelerator series down at the Dallas Market Center. I sadly will not be able to go. But it's going to be a lot of great designers, a lot of good business advice and Caitlin in person. So I just wanted to make sure that people in Texas and hop on a flight anywhere near Texas, make sure that they're aware of that.
- [01:53]
A
Exactly. It's a big state, but you can get to Dallas wherever you are.
- [01:57]
B
Exactly. Exactly. But yeah. Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode. A conversation with David Littman of Hudson Valley Lighting Group. Interesting conversation. You really kind of walked through step by step how he built what we call the lighting empire, in which I think actually is very few people can claim to have built a lighting empire. And I think David Lippmann is one
- [02:15]
A
of them, I agree. And his grandfather was there in the early days of the fluorescent light. We went all the way back to the 1939 World's Fair and talked about how this family has built quite an impressive lighting business and many brands that were acquired and developed along the way, including some which we've. Which we've covered Sonoman and of course, Schoolhouse, which he's quite animated about. But a really interesting conversation, and I hope everyone enjoyed learning as much about lighting as I did.
- [02:48]
B
Well, it is. It really is like a primer, as you would say, Dennis, on the way the lighting industry works. He really broke it down, the margins, what the different levels are, how this part works, how that part works. It's a really good. Just, you know, exploratory, quick lesson on how lighting works, which. That was really valuable. It also had kind of a shocker in there for me. You know, I think when we talked about Schoolhouse going bankrupt and being sold on the auction block and we found that it was being acquired by Hudson Valley, my assumption was that they were just going to relaunch it just for the lighting alone, because that's what they do. They do lighting. They don't have a ton of other categories. But au contraire, David said that they're going to relaunch the whole brand with textiles, too, hardware as well. And he said this is kind of only the beginning of maybe Hudson Valley doing more. Maybe it won't be Hudson Valley Lighting Group in the future. Maybe they're going to get into other categories. He clearly is in a buying mood. I think everyone's sending him their ailing company right now, hopeful he'll come in and swoop them up. So this made me really think that he's going to be a player in other categories and made me excited to see Schoolhouse coming back in a more major way than I had previously thought.
- [03:54]
A
Schoolhouse clearly has him very excited and fun to see all of the things that he was imagining and, as you say, the brand extensions that he was envisioning. He indicated that he is looking at a deal a day, and so it sounds like quite a bit of action is coming his way. I imagine we will be having him on the show again in the not too distant future to talk about more acquisitions, because he. He seems to. He seems to be quite revved up about the whole thing.
- [04:22]
B
So him and him and Lee Mayer from Havenly can just trade off weeks.
- [04:26]
A
Exactly, yeah. They'll be duking it out for who gets which asset. We will definitely be hearing more from him. But as you say, it was a wonderful primer, Fred.
- [04:35]
C
Thank you.
- [04:35]
A
Yes. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, a family run company creating rugs, pillows and wall art with a focus on lasting design and long term partnerships. It's April, which means High Point Market and Laloy is introducing a range of new collections including a standout collection that's been in development for years, along with new launches from Rifle Paper company plus pillows and wall art. It's all part of Leloyloy's continued investment in product, in service and in making things easier for their trade customers. With dedicated sales reps, showrooms across the country and and a seamless website experience, you can learn more and connect with a sales rep@theloirerugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com this podcast is sponsored by Chelsea House who invites you to discover found a new 80 piece collection by well loved designer Eric Ross. See Eric's refined yet approachable design sensibility expressed in furniture, lighting, art, accessories and mirrors. Experience the anticipated debut April 24th through the 29th at Chelsea House, 200 N. Hamilton St. In High Point. And we're back. First up, Fred, Nordic Knots.
- [06:09]
B
Yes. The Swedish rug brand announced its first ever fundraise. And what a fundraise. Last week it raised $100 million. We were talking a couple weeks about how 20 million for Ernesto was a lot. This is a lot. Although that was a lot too. So there's a lot. There's a lot of money in rugs. A lot of money in them. Thar rugs. What do you make of this?
- [06:30]
A
Why aren't we investing in the rug business, Fred? That is clearly my question. Out of all of this and Swedish rugs, who knew that there was this much excitement around the space. We should talk about what is, who is Nordic Knots and the family behind.
- [06:46]
B
Yeah, so it's a cool company. It started in 2016 in Sweden by Swedish people. It's a married couple, Fabian Bergland and Liza Berglund, Lazaro and Felix's brother, or Fabian's brother rather. Felix started in 2016 and they bootstrapped it. So they haven't really raised any money up until now. They got it going piece by piece and it's, you know, it's a rug brand. Their rugs are made in India. It's kind of cool rugs, very tight selection. You know, they were originally a direct to consumer brand and I think they sort of caught that, that tailwind. But they've also, you know, been branched out into doing curtains as well. It's, you know, it's a brand that I have always thought was very cool. They've always, you know, had cool collaborations. I know a lot of interior designers like them, but I never thought that this was a company that was going to raise $100 million, you know, and I'll tell you, like, I posted this on my Instagram feed and just wall to wall reaction of wow, jaw dropping. Every, like, from designers to other executives, there was, there was a lot of surprise at this fundraise. Even though I think everyone likes this company, it's just that I'll caught people off guard.
- [07:45]
A
Well, exactly. I think many people knew the company and as you say, it's an impressive brand, but I think it's always so hard to get any sense of real scale. So it came as a huge surprise to the marketplace that suddenly they were raising $100 million. And it makes me think, what the heck do they want to do with $100 million?
- [08:07]
B
Hopefully a lot of podcast advertising would be my hope.
- [08:10]
A
Exactly. This podcast is sponsored by Nordic Knots. I'm practicing right now.
- [08:14]
B
Yes, exactly. Get. I mean, this was interesting. Okay, so, you know, we talked a few weeks ago, Ernesta's big fundraise and you know, we're going to have John Foley on the show to talk about that in the not too distant future. Spoiler alert. You know, what they really want to do is double down on rugs. Like Ernesto wants to spend the 20 million on, you know, owning customizable rugs. Nordic Knots is a little bit different. They want to become like a lifestyle brand. I think what the two founder, you know, the married couple behind it have observed is that, you know, people love the rugs, but they're like, oh, that photo that you have on your website, what's that furniture? And what about that pillow? And what about, you know, it's the classic thing. You develop a cool brand that people want to buy into and you start thinking, okay, I want to sell them more stuff. So they. It was funny in our conversation, I was asking, so what, you know, what do you want to do with the money? And they said, we want to get into other categories. And I was like, okay, so what other categories? And they very coyly were like furniture down the line. So I think they want to become like a whole home brand. I think they want to become like a, you know, West Elm and dare I say it, RH competitor someday. So this is this is a big, ambitious swing, I think.
- [09:18]
A
Yeah. And it's interesting, as you say, so often when a company does a photo shoot, they get annoyed when people are focused on the product that's not actually theirs. They're like, no, no, we're just selling the rugs. If you could focus on that. But I mean, it sounds as if their style and their eye and their point of view sounds like it attracted a lot of interest in other spaces. And perhaps they've been toying with lots of other ideas. It is a big ambition, but they've got suddenly quite a bit of seed money to grow a lifestyle business, if they want.
- [09:51]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think, as you were saying, like, it's a good time to be in the rug business. You know, over the past five years, I think the two big winners in home have been outdoor, as everyone in Covid discovered. They had a backyard, I think, as you put it recently. And also rugs. Rugs have really been on the rise. Anyone who's in the rug game is generating a lot of cash. I think it probably looks really good to investors to see all this money coming in the door. I'm really curious to see how it's going to go. You know, big swings or are risky. But they were very, very confident on the call. So I'm really curious to see what the next step looks like. But for now, we can just marvel at the money and maybe wonder if anybody else has got $100 million they're about to raise. It's a big fundraiser, the biggest one I've seen in a long time.
- [10:30]
A
Yeah, no, no, no doubt. And again, it shows you that they must have some pretty strong numbers to show to investors, because in this environment, I'm thinking you've got to be able to show them a lot of growth to convince them on that kind of investment. And as we've talked about, I think, Stacy from Studio, how suddenly rugs were more than 50% of her business. And you think of them as a fabric showroom, and many others have shown us that as well. Zach and Fox has grown his rug collection dramatically. So has Pierre Frey. So, I mean, it's clear this is a hot category and super, super growth behind it. I'm excited to see what comes next for them, and perhaps we'll have him on the show in the future to talk about that lifestyle brand. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about hem. Earlier this month, this Swedish furniture brand CEO made a surprising announcement stating that the company was quitting discounts wow, that's not easy to do. Quitting, having sales.
- [11:29]
B
This is a very Scandinavian episode of the Thursday show here, but what Swedish companies are making.
- [11:34]
A
Live from Sweden, it's Fred and Dennis talking about what's happening.
- [11:38]
B
Exactly. Well, this is very cool. So the CEO of HEM is Petrus Palmer, who actually was a very early guest of the Business of Home podcast. Indeed. First, I think 10 or 15 guests. And hem is a very cool company. Kind of one of the original direct to consumer furniture brands launched I think, in 2014. So almost even a little bit ahead of the curve. Very design oriented, very cool Scandinavian aesthetic, a lot of cool pieces. But it was interesting. I think unlike rugs, furniture has been a tough category to sell direct to consumer. The margins are more punishing. I think it's less of an impulse buy. And I had a really interesting conversation with him, sort of going over that. And there's been a lot of buildup towards this big decision, which is that he's, you know, they're not going to be doing sales, they're not going to be marking their product down anymore, which was, you know, definitely caught a lot of people's attention on LinkedIn. You know, he posted about it and I think literally every executive I know was applauding the decision. So we'll see if they follow suit. But.
- [12:34]
A
Well, exactly. It felt like a celebration, saying, yeah, better. Better you than me, pal, but good luck with that. Like, sure. Because. And as you were just describing, this is such a challenging environment and even. And we're going to talk about our age later, but even Gary Friedman, who has railed against sales for years, you're getting a sale email from him practically every day because you've got to clear merchandise and you. And for, for people who need to sell furniture, it's like you need to keep reminding them that you're here. And a sale email is usually the best way to do it. So. Wow, this is hard to quit.
- [13:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, it is, you know, hard to quit. I think the analogy of addiction is a good one. You know, Petrus was talking about, you know, we started with the small stuff, just 10 or 20%, and it really, you know, we got the fix we needed and so we kept going and hitting with the hard stuff. But it really, it really does spiral out of control because you, it's so powerful. You get people in the door, you get cash coming in the door. Everything that a furniture business needs. I think the problem, I mean, and sales are sort of interesting. So if you never, you know, if you haven't been on the other side of a retail or furniture business. You know, sales are, they're very complicated. I mean, on the one hand they hurt your margin because you're making less money, but. But it's also, they're just very complicated because what you end up doing is positioning your entire business around the sale. So you're like, we have to make all our money for the month on this three day period, which makes things very high stakes. It's very, you know, it adds all kinds of stress on your supply chain and on your staff. So sales make things, make things not only less profitable, but like more complicated. And the other part of this, really, the kind of the linchpin of this story is that HEM has become much more of a trade focused company. When they launched in 2014, it was like selling to consumers and cutting out the middleman and bringing a great price direct to you. But over the years, they've become much, much more oriented around selling to designers and architects. And as we have found out, designers and architects do not like sales. Dennis, I think you did a little Instagram survey about this. What was the feedback you got?
- [14:29]
A
Well, it was interesting because. And several designers, one of whom was Becca Interior Design in Florida, wrote in to me that this was part of the reason that she sort of tried to move away from clients who were going to be shopping and looking at sales and looking at discounts. And many designers wrote into me saying this is why they had to move away from buying at retail or working with clients at a level where that was a big part of the project. Because of course, the clients are getting these emails all the time with the sales and they say, well, why aren't you getting me this lower price? And for designers who are marking up the retail, it's very hard when your client is being shown a lower price. And I think that's a huge challenge.
- [15:16]
B
It's a huge challenge. And I think it's sort of like Petrus, I think, is sort of philosophically kind of worried about how sales really degrade the company and degrade the value of the business, which I think makes sense. But there's also this very practical thing of if you're selling to interior designers and architects, you better be mindful of the way that they make money and protect their margins. And I think that for all the reasons you just pointed out, it didn't make sense for them to lean as hard into sales. I think there's a couple reasons to do this, but it's interesting, other people have tried this before. We wrote an article in 2019 about how Ethan Allen was going to do a very similar thing and cut out its sales entirely and have a membership program like rhs. They walked that back. They still have sales. Now, I think it's tricky because obviously HEM is a very different company than Ethan Allen and rh. I think probably this move will be easier for them to pull off. But Petrus was very sincere that, like, this is going to hurt us with our direct to consumer channel. We will sell less furniture to the average person because of this. And that's why a lot of people either don't do this or try it and then pull back.
- [16:16]
A
Exactly. The retail graveyard is littered with companies who announce the end of sales. Bed, Bath and Beyond said they were going to get rid of their coupons and they were met with pitchforks and a revolt. Ron Johnson, who was running J.C. penney years ago, said, oh, we're just going to move to everyday low prices. He was ridden out on a rail. I mean, it is often not a successful strategy. And as someone who has run a Scandinavian furniture store during a recession, I had to do sales because that's what you needed to do to bring them in. And I too was hooked on that drug and it was the only thing that worked. And whenever we stopped, the traffic stopped as well. So I'm worried for Petras, but we're gonna be staying close to him and checking in on him, make sure he's okay.
- [16:59]
B
I mean, I think he's just accepted that, like, look, he's much more of a trade oriented company. Now you'd like, for example, you don't see a lot of high point companies that sell direct to designers having big sales for their trade. I mean, there's little things here and there. But I agree with you that this is really challenging if you're a retailer. I think what this move signifies as much as anything is that HEM is not a retail brand, or at least that's not the direction they want to go. But I'm curious. You've been having conversations with executives talking about everything's on sale and how that can be sort of corrosive to the industry. Do you think we're kind of at. Have we gone too hard on sales as an industry? Is there too much of that? Do we need to kind of all hold hands and price fix a little? I don't know. What's your thought on this?
- [17:41]
A
You know, it was another one of those calendar items for so many people. I've spoken to so many CEOs who said, oh, yeah, we planned to stop having sales because we thought this was gonna get easier. We thought rates were coming down again, tied to all the things that everybody hoped for. And I think many CEOs off the record will tell you that, yes, the industry has become too addicted to sales. And it is a problem, and partially for the reasons that Petrus and some of the people that responded to his post talk about is that you somewhat degrade the impression or the value perception of your product by saying, oh, no, today it's worth 10, 15, 30% less than it was. And so that's always the concern. So, yes, I think it's another one of the issues. And listen, it's a straight up margin issue as well. And right now, everything is costing more, and then you've got to put it on sale. And so you're eating even more of your margin, which is the other big challenge. But as I say, in a climate like this, it's awfully hard to come off of those sales.
- [18:46]
B
Yeah, everybody wants to be Hermes, but I think it's tough in this day and age to stick to your guns. So we'll certainly keep an eye on it. Wish him luck.
- [18:54]
A
Exactly. All the best, Petrus. Really. We'll be staying close to you in the meantime. And this is a similar story. Let's talk about the housing market. Fred.
- [19:03]
B
Yes. This week, Boh is Jen Fernandez wrote a great piece about how designers are responding to the growing number of homeowners who are choosing to remodel rather than purchasing new homes. This is a story we've been talking about a lot on the podcast for the past two, three, four, five years. Dennis, this is, this is maybe no surprise. What'd you make of this story?
- [19:22]
A
Well, exactly. I feel as if we've been talking about any minute this huge shift is going to take place because people are going to be stuck in their homes, stuck with those low mortgages. There's going to be far less housing stock on the market, and people are going to start leaning into renovating in a much more meaningful way. And guess what this story says. You're absolutely right. And at the high end, this isn't people who are struggling. This is people who are hiring Kim Scotrow in Chicago, and they've got money, but they just don't want to spend it necessarily on a new build at this moment.
- [19:56]
B
Yeah. Or even just to move into a new house and do the traditional.
- [19:59]
A
Exactly.
- [19:59]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think the Harvard Joint center for Housing Studies has this statistic that says renovation will top a record 522 billion in 2026. There's all these statistics we're seeing about now how millennials are spending more than they've ever spent on renovation. So you're starting to see it in the numbers, but as you said, it's really telling that you're seeing it even with high end designers. And I think it was interesting when Jen went into writing this piece, we were looking at these numbers and thinking, well, you know, are we really going to see this in our corner of the world? Because as you pointed out, people have money. And when she went talking to designers, at first, I think there was this sort of reaction of like, well, no, my clients don't really care. They can do whatever they want. But what started to emerge is this. It's sort of the value question. You know, yes, I could buy a new home, yes, I could do a new build, but at the moment there's less on the market because people don't want to move. And I'm going to get less for my money. So why don't I just stay put and make the most of what I've got and renovate? And I think it's, as you said, it's really telling that this is happening at all levels of the market, including the tippy top. So certainly something to watch out for for designers who are thinking, where's my next project coming from? I think it's more likely than it used to be that it'll be a renovation job.
- [21:09]
A
I agree, and I think we talk so often about the well to do and the difference in how they behave. But many designers remind us that they like to spend money unwisely, either that's how they got all that money. So they are very conscious of the value. And I saw that Liz Graziolo from Yellow House Architect, drove home that same point that it's less about scaling back, as she said, and more about value and control and why not use that million and a half to really get the house you want from the house that you've got. We know that the cost for a new build has gone through the roof even higher than it was before the war and all the oil issues. Plus we also know that the permitting issue just everything taking so much longer. There's just a lot more flexibility in renovating than there is in either a new build or buying a new home. So there's a lot of reasons to see why this is happening. And as I say, we've talked about imagining this was going to come. Clearly it has.
- [22:12]
B
And I would just urge people to read Jen's article, we'll link it in the show notes. But she talks about how various designers have sort of positioned their services around doing more renovations and. And people. It's a different kind of project. The homeowner's often living in the house while you're working on it. It's a different kind of budget question because you're ripping open walls, you might find a surprise in there. So there's all different ways that you can kind of structure your business around working for renovations in sort of a smart, profitable way. I think there's a lot more to explore here, but Jen does a great job getting the conversation started, so definitely check out the article.
- [22:39]
A
I agree. And designers, it's a little bit of a mind shift, but. And listen, if you can get those homeowners out of the house, all the better. But. You're absolutely right. But. But definitely. I think that's. Focusing on renovations is gonna be a huge theme, obviously, for the foreseeable future, because the challenges in housing continue as we're gonna discuss right now. Fred. Cause you know what we're gonna talk about? We're gonna talk about rh. That's right. The company formerly known as Restoration Hardware issued its latest quarterly earnings report on Tuesday, and the numbers were not great. Oh, Fred, Fred, there's so much to get into. Where. Where, oh, where do we begin?
- [23:18]
B
I think we start with the video. So this, you know, normally, just to set the scene a little bit, the RH earnings call. You know, you hop onto this, like, line, you hear some hold music, and then Gary Friedman comes on and sort of reads the investor letter. But there was a little bit of a twist this week in that. There was a video presentation that included this sort of somber piano music. And Gary kind of running down the business a little bit. Let's hear a clip from it.
- [23:42]
A
It tariffs global discord as a result of war and the most dire housing market in decades can make it difficult to separate the signal from the noise. It's important to remember necessity is the mother of invention, and our most important innovations were birthed during the most uncertain times. Transforming a nearly bankrupt Restoration Hardware into rh, the leading luxury home brand in North America, was not a feat for the faint of heart. While the external challenges are somewhat familiar, our internal opportunities are massively different.
- [24:21]
B
Yeah, that was very dramatic. It's a dramatic, dramatic sounding music. It was a dramatic video. I have to say. As soon as I saw that video, I was like, oh, this doesn't seem like a good. If you're Sort of contextualizing the numbers with a 20 minute film at the beginning of the call. I don't know that these numbers are going to be great. And indeed they weren't the fourth quarter for rh, they were also looking back at their full year. Just to quickly go over the numbers. The earnings per share in the fourth quarter were $1.53, which was significantly below the analyst expectation of $2.21. They missed on their revenue is up, but they missed that number as well. And I think almost just as worryingly, they didn't seem quite as optimistic about the first half of 2026. They projected revenue shrinking actually with revenue dropping in the first quarter of 2026. And, and while there was this sort of slightly more optimistic look for the whole year, it was less than what analysts thought was going to happen. And so these were just all around pretty negative numbers and Wall street really did not like them. As that video was playing and the piano music was getting dramatic, the stock was dropping in real time.
- [25:29]
A
Stock was dropping like a stone.
- [25:31]
B
Yeah. So this was definitely not a good quarter. What did you make of the call and what's going on with the numbers?
- [25:37]
A
Well, it was a quarter that Wall street was preparing for in a very negative way. And you and I had been talking recently on previous shows about where some of these stocks were relative to even where they had been just a few months earlier. And we saw Wall street marking down the shares of a lot of the home related companies. And rh, many had borrowed shares so they could sell them and hope to buy them back at a lower price, known as selling. And they had been playing a lot in the options market, suggesting there was going to be a big move. And there clearly was. Wall street was clearly very negative going into this number. What was interesting was clearly they hadn't been negative enough. So the fact that the Stock dropped about 20% going into the earnings call suggested that there just weren't buyers willing to step in. And as we've talked about repeatedly on the show, we already know how much RH is spending. They talked a great deal about how 2025 was the year of the big investments that they were making hundreds of millions of dollars going into the European expansion, the acquisitions that they made and all of that. And so they said, yeah, we recognize we're spending a lot of money and we're operating on some pretty thin cash flow here because they're also having to spend in 2025, they spent close to a quarter of a billion dollars just on interest payments for the debt. So it's a company that's stretched pretty thin.
- [27:14]
B
I think everybody kind of already, everybody knows RH spends a lot of money on parties and building out galleries. That wasn't a surprise. But when you see those debt payments, when you see revenue expectations go down, when you see really the real impact of tariffs and the, the snow seemed to have an effect on them as well. You know, the forward looking picture gets a little less rosy. And I sort of felt like you really saw Gary Friedman on this call more than ever, trying to explain, you know, listen, I, I understand that this is a weird time. Like this is. We're spending a lot of money and it's a terrible time for the home industry. There was a little more investor empathy than I feel like there normally is on the call. What'd you make of that?
- [27:51]
A
Well, and as you say, I mean, I think the, the showmanship that he tries to bring and the video was really about, let me show you all of the incredible things that are coming and we'll talk about the new collection that he's leaning heavily into and hoping is going to be the biggest introduction in the company's history. But also showing you a lot of new locations and even some new designs for what future locations are going to look like and really just bring you along and tell you the amazing things that are going to be happening in about three years if we can get out of this mess that we're in.
- [28:29]
B
Well, but even, even, even some of the new stuff was sort of couched in the language of we spending less. You know, it was like we built all these incredible locations and now we're done and the next locations we're going to build are all one story. So we're going to have to, they're going to be easier and cheaper to build. So, you know, and you know, and even, you know, said we might be debt free by 2029, which I certainly think was music to a lot of people's ears if that can come true. So I do think there was this recognition that they're in a weird spot. So that was interesting to see. But let's talk about this collection a little bit. This was also the big debut of this new thing they're rolling out called RH Estates. I think you actually kind of accidentally broke the news of that name a few months ago on a call. But this is their big play for the traditional market. What'd you make of the first, first glimpse at RH Estates?
- [29:18]
A
Well, it was interesting because Gary Friedman blurted out the name on A previous call. And then everyone's under hush hush. And then they talked to us quite a bit about it when Caitlin and I were in Paris and we were somewhat sworn to secrecy. And so they finally were able to talk about it in a much more open way. And obviously we knew that they had acquired Dennis and Lean and Formations and Michael Taylor. And we knew that what they wanted to do was to really bring a huge traditional offering into the mix. They've been teasing this for quite a long time and this is finally coming out in addition to talking about what they're going to do with Dmitri in terms of bespoke and in terms of all of their custom capabilities. So there was a lot that they were talking about this estate's rollout. They're really thinking of even very specific locations where they're going to bring this. And sounds like I'm going to be spending a lot of time in Greenwich, Connecticut, because there's going to be huge build out in Greenwich, Connecticut, where, honestly, Estates seems to make a whole heck of a lot of sense.
- [30:24]
B
And there's a lot of actual estates.
- [30:26]
A
Exactly. And I think they've known that they've been overly indexed in modern. He's talked about this repeatedly and so he's excited to finally be able to. To say that this product is coming and so is the big source book for it. And so that was a big topic of conversation. What did you make of it?
- [30:45]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely not someone who should be weighing in on stylistic matters. So I'm going to have to plead the fifth a little bit. I thought it was cool. I thought it was a good look. I think, as Gary Friedman says, 60% of the homes and high end homes in America are sort of traditional leaning in terms of architecture, so they should have traditional furniture to go in them. And a lot of it seemed like it was based around Michael Taylor and Formations and Dennis and Lean, and they're obviously very good companies. So the first look seemed pretty cool. It was also interesting how much he was talking about designers as a customer. I never thought I would hear Gary Friedman say the word com on an earnings call, but he was talking about how I think what they're doing is they're taking Joseph Jup, the furniture manufacturer, and Dimitri that they bought a few years back and they want to develop like a couture upholstery program that they want, you know, designers to shop from. And so, you know, it definitely seemed like there was a very clear play to, you know, offer. Offer things to the trade And I think, you know, that was certainly interesting. It caught my ear for sure.
- [31:44]
A
Yeah. And we've been talking on the show quite a bit. How many of the. Many of the high point brands, they've discovered this is. This is their huge market in the trade. Clearly. I think he realizes from both a price point perspective and an aesthetic perspective, he needs to court this market more.
- [32:03]
B
What'd you make lastly, of the hires? There were two big ones announced, actually, just a couple days before the call. One of them was our friend Veronica Schnitzis of American Leather. I thought she would. She's been there for exactly how many years?
- [32:16]
A
24 years at American Leather.
- [32:18]
B
I know, I know. Amazing manufacturing executive and just general executive altogether. I thought she would never leave. She's headed over to rh. What'd you make of that one?
- [32:26]
A
Yeah, I mean, so as you say, two big moves. Veronica. It was interesting to see her move in the context of, hey, let's become more vertically integrated. Hey, let's get our arms around our manufacturing. And maybe this suggests, I think it does, that what more can we be doing in the U.S. what more can we be bringing to these shores? And really, what more can we do to get out of the way of whatever the heck is gonna happen in the future with tariff tariffs and issues overseas, clearly.
- [32:58]
B
Yeah, definitely. And who better to do it than.
- [33:00]
A
Couldn't agree more.
- [33:01]
B
There was also another big hire of David Stanchak, the real estate guy. What'd you make of that one? Not just the real estate guy. Sorry, David.
- [33:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. And in David's case, a welcome home. Longtime RH employee, and he's a man with a mission. He's the one who's gotta raise some serious money for this company because as we talked about with the. With the debt payments and the very low cash on hand at RH at the moment, David's job is starting today. I need you to liquidate some of these assets and as quickly as you can. I mean, so they made it very clear that they've got some buildings that they're going to be getting rid of. It sounded like some of their aspirations in Aspen were going to be dialed back a bit. We got some property to sell you there. We got a building in Madrid that's priced to move. I mean, there was. Because they sounded like they needed to raise a couple hundred million dollars in real estate transactions. And so I don't think that David is going to be sitting around for very long in his new job.
- [33:59]
B
I guess just sort of in wrapping this up. We like to talk about RH a lot, I think, just because it's a fascinating company. But I do think part of the reason why we talk about the company so much is because it is kind of a bellwether for the high end of the home industry and the interior design world. It's, I think their customer is the same customer as a lot of interior designers and they can be sort of a canary in the coal mine for what's going to happen with everybody else's business. This was obviously not a great day for them on Wall street and they do have a lot of challenges right now. What can people take away from this call? Is this a sign that overall the high end of the industry is maybe in for a rough patch? Is this just an RH thing? And they've spent so much money and that's what's the problem. How should the average designer or person running a brand and take RH's bad day on Wall Street?
- [34:45]
A
Interestingly, if you spun this in a very positive direction and listen, unfortunately, as we've talked about, RH has one arm tied behind its back because it does have this huge debt burden and sadly it's a self inflicted wound. Interestingly, so much of what they're doing is actually growing and working and they have a lot better numbers than many in the industry when you get below the surface of some of these numbers. But, but I think what they're showing you is that there is a lot of enthusiasm around this space and clearly they're tapping into a lot of luxury customers that I think aren't coming to the trade in a more traditional way. And so perhaps that's a huge opportunity there. We'll see. But they're very focused on designers and so once again, I think there is opportunity to be found there. What's your of sense?
- [35:39]
B
Well, I think my cop out answer is that it's kind of both. I mean, I think like they are in a little bit of a trap of their own making just because of the debt, as you mentioned, and because they also just spend a lot of money and so that shows up on the balance sheet. There's a lot about this that's just specific to rh. But I do think part of all of this is just the weird moment we're in. You know, it is a really weird time that the tariffs still matter. You know, war is making nobody feel secure and excited to buy a home and furnish it right now. We've known this for a long time and I think the affluent have continued to buy anyway. But I do think we're just entering into this very, very uncertain time. I think that to some degree that's magnified by the particulars of the company that RH is. But I do think we're in a weird time, and that's part of the reason why the stock took such a beating. I don't know if that's the most optimistic way to end the show on. We can talk about something more fun, but I think there's a little bit of both, both sides of the equation to take away from this one.
- [36:37]
A
What I will say in wrapping it up is RH continues to remind you that you can build awfully exciting retail experiences and people will come. And I think we've been talking throughout this show. Everybody who is raising money in one way or another is using a chunk of it to create more physical locations. And so you don't hear them talking about VR or digital experiences. And I think that's a huge message as well. And often we talk about design centers and their future. To me, hearing all of this about physical spaces being so important to sell furniture makes me think that things are pretty good for the future of a lot of the landscape around interior design. So that's an optimistic spin that I will leave on that one.
- [37:24]
B
There we go. All right, we got that.
- [37:26]
A
That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the latest showroom openings and a profile of a new site that wants to take on Pinterest. But first, a quick break. 300 thrilling new designs. 300 fresh inspirations from Chelsea House. Experience one of the most exciting showrooms in High Point with delight around each corner and see what makes Chelsea House the go to source for today's designers. Visit Chelsea house at 200 N. Hamilton St. In High Point. Pick up an iconic Chelsea House bag and be inspired. If you're heading to High Point this month, Laloy's showroom is well worth a visit. See the new introductions and don't miss a conversation between founder Amir Laloy and designer Amber Lewis on design business. And wherever the conversation leads, there'll also be live entertainment throughout the week. And if you can't make it to market, all of the new collections will be available online@laloyrugs.com where you can also connect with a sales rep or find the showroom nearest you. And we're back. I'm joined now by Jamie Seabury, who holds two titles, one the vice president of Green Row and also the Vice president of Williams Sonoma Homes, which I'm eager to talk about both of those brands. But, Jamie, welcome to the show.
- [38:58]
C
Thank you.
- [38:59]
A
So glad to have you. And you and I had the pleasure of walking through the very first retail store for Green Row not too long ago. Congratulations on that.
- [39:12]
C
Thank you. And thanks for stopping by. It was such a fun surprise.
- [39:16]
A
Well, I'm so glad that I could. And. And before we talk about all of that, I want to take a step back, talk a little bit about your background and career. And the development of Green Row is an interesting one to me. So I want to get into that. What were you doing? Where'd you come from? Tell me.
- [39:38]
C
Well, I always say I started in retail. When I got my driver's license. I got a job at the Gap, and that started it. And I guess when I graduated college, I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew I wanted to move to San Francisco. I had lined up a Gap training program, and I was researching other companies in San Francisco, and turns out William Sonoma was based here. I went on the website, researched Chuck Williams, and realized that he was going to be at a book signing in Boston, where I lived. And so I just put on a suit, brought my resume, which wasn't very impressive, to the book signing, and introduced myself to Chuck Williams and said, I would love to work for your company. And he took my resume, put it in his pocket, and he said, are you sure you want to move to San Francisco? It's really expensive. And I said, I definitely do. So two and a half weeks later, after my roommate and I zigzagged across the country, I called and I said, oh, hey, Chuck Williams turned in my resume. The next thing you know, I'm in for an interview, and I started at Pottery Barn, and the rest is history. And. And Chuck, he was so amazing. He was always at the office, and he remembered me, and he remembered the story. So I was in Pottery Barn for six years, and then I left to go to anthropology for a little bit. I did their first home catalog, and then I came back to the west coast and did shabby chic. And I always stayed in touch with Laura Alber, who's the CEO, and she on my last day, said, you're Miss Pottery Barn. You'll be back. And so, yes, so she was right. She came to me with this opportunity to. To start a sustainable brand within Williams Sonoma, and I thought, what an amazing opportunity, but top secret. Like, I was in an office back in the back by the mark, and Grab photo studio. I had to keep the shades shut for samples coming in. And for a while it was just me and Laura. And then we were able to slowly hire a tiny, tiny team. There was about two of us for a while and then it became four and then, and slowly we started getting closer to the launch. And right before we launched, the Williams Sonoma home merchandising and product development position opened up and she was like, can you do that too? And I said, sure. So we've been working on that too since Green Row launched.
- [41:49]
A
Well, so I love all of the secrecy and if I remember it had a code name, Project Green.
- [41:56]
C
Yeah, the Green project was the green
- [41:58]
A
project and it was all sort of hush hush. And what was the brief that you were given about what it was you were ultimately going to build?
- [42:08]
C
Well, Laura has always, you know, Williams Sonoma does such a great job around sustainability. We have a whole team, we have a vendor community that does a great job. And so we've always been innovative in packaging and materials, obviously in our sourcing structure. But this was a way to really start from scratch and do everything the right way because it's hard to go back once you've gone forward. And even though we do a lot of things the right way, her goal for me was to figure out a way to do everything. And like we're maniacal about it. You know, there's not even, there's no plastic unless it's recycled. Same with polyester. There's nothing on any product that you will find that we feel like we didn't vet out and figure out the best material to use. So, you know, post Covid, it was an opportunity to really get into growth. And how do you incubate a small brand within a big brand? And you know, if it was any other company, you know, just on my own, I could have probably done this. But with the resources of Williams Sonoma's sourcing network that we have amazing international sourcing team, we have a great group of vendors. And you know, I traveled around the world and met with these vendors and they were all, you know, under NDA. And I was saying we need to do this with packaging. And I said, oh my God, all these people are going to want to kill me. And they were all like, Jamie, this is the wave of the future. Like, we're so excited to be a part of this. So it was also something where I did a lot of research and all the sustainable brands, first of all didn't meet the full home. Like they didn't go from Bedroom to kitchen to kids rooms even. And they were all kind of boring, like very bland and neutral. And it was the end of COVID And it just felt like a good time to be more whimsical, joyful and optimistic. You know, it was like, decorate your house, you know, with joy and with color and print and pattern. So we figured out how to incorporate color and pattern in a natural way and do it in an eco friendly way using, like upcycled materials for patchwork quilts, things like that. So it became its own aesthetic in the portfolio. While at the same time, I always say, I think I said this to you in the store. It's like the good Earth markets here in the Bay Area. When you go in, you know, everything has been vetted and it's all good for you. You don't have to think about it. And that's what we want Green Road to be. Is this really. Our sustainability team has vetted everything. Everything hits at least one of our social initiatives or environmental initiatives.
- [44:44]
A
And you make this point about the vendors wanting to step up and recognizing this is the future. We want to learn these capabilities. We want to be able to learn what materials we can use to make things more sustainable. So it seemed as if many the people that you thought you might be annoying, in fact wanted to come along with you to help themselves to grow 100%.
- [45:09]
C
I mean, they were going to packaging conferences all over the world and bringing back. I would get decks filled with materials. And then the packaging people were introducing me to people who were experimenting with shrimp shell, like the leftover shrimp shells from food waste and turning that into a new form of Styrofoam. So it was very exciting to be around all of these, these creative people who are trying to find solutions to, you know, problems that we don't want to, you know, we don't want to use Styrofoam. So what's the next thing? And being a smaller brand, we can incubate that a little bit more and try different things and see how it works. So we are piloting some paper packaging this summer, which is kind of exciting too, because right now we use a recycled plastic for some of our packaging because it's the easiest thing to actually recycle. Most compostable packaging needs a commercial composter, whereas a traditional recycled plastic can just go in your recycle bin. And that gets recycled normally without extra machinery, which is interesting.
- [46:16]
A
Well, and I think when you took me through the store, one of the sofas had some kind of soy fill to it, if I recall. And I mean, there were all sorts of alternatives of products that you've been able to use.
- [46:30]
C
Yeah, the sofas are my most passionate and exciting part. First of all, I made you sit in it. But instead of using traditional materials that most sofas have in them, like a poly, we cover the arms with coconut mat. So it's almost like the old horse hair of, you know, like English upholstery, we use responsible wool. So instead of the cotton batting or the poly batting that you would use, there's these layers of natural materials. And then you have three different fill choices on the cushion. So you could do the certipur, which is the soy foam. You could do the natural latex, which is derived from rubber trees naturally. And then we have a combo of natural latex and responsible down and feather. And we're also working on some recycled down and feather options, too. So we're really trying to hone in on more materials.
- [47:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what was the. What was the sense of the scope and scale originally going to be? Were you given a sense of how many skus and to your point, did you want to have product available in all the rooms in the home? Was it a whole home story right out of the gate?
- [47:44]
C
It was a whole home story right out of the gate, but very, very selective and intentional. And it was like, we will have. And actually, that's where the name came from. So the Green Row name was everything you need all in a row. And that's where Green Row came from. So it was the most sustainable dining table, the best sofa, you know, the crib, the crib sheets, the most comfortable, sustainable bedding. All of these things that were practical, beautiful, and functional, but it was all in a row. So the idea was we were lining it up so you didn't have to think about it.
- [48:18]
A
And what was the stylistic directive or how did that come to life in the way that it did? What did you want it to look like and feel like?
- [48:30]
C
Well, I think part of it is probably my pedigree being at anthropology for a little while and then shabby chic for a very long time. I did see a void in the market for sort of more vintage nostalgic and with a little bit of femininity in it as well. But again, it was just more this idea of adding life and joy into the product and that I am a flea market shopper. I. My whole house is filled with vintage and, you know, wonky legs and things like that. So I. I was naturally attracted to shapes and materials that were from the past. And I think you see that in the store. Some of the things, you can't tell if they're the vintage pieces or the reproduction pieces.
- [49:13]
A
One of the things that people in the world of sustainability tell me is challenging is that it was hard enough getting the American market excited about the sustainability story before, and now it's even more challenging because we're told, oh, that's not a priority at the moment. How do you reconcile that? How do you navigate that?
- [49:43]
C
Obviously, it's challenging, but we're always focused. We have a clear vision, a clear strategy. Our ethos for the brand are very clear, and we're not going to waver, because at the end of the day, it's important, from my perspective of I have two children and I want to make sure that whatever we're doing, we're not hurting the earth. And to make sure that, you know, the most sustainable choice, I guess, is not to buy anything. But you do buy a home and you do grow and need other pieces. So to try and buy it in a way that you can feel good about, I think makes me feel good. So we're not going to ever. That's our mission. And we're not going to lose sight of what we set out to do. And we will just keep doing things the way we do them. And in some cases, it becomes more expensive. But I've always said, since the beginning, even when Fred came to the launch, that, that the price points on most of our things are aligned with like a Pottery Barn, Williams Sonoma price point. It's the sofas that are a little bit more expensive, but you're investing in a lifetime sofa. So, you know, it. It is something where you can replace the slipcover in a couple years if you just want to change or change the cushions out. It's really coming to terms with, like, this is a forever sofa, and you know it's going to cost a little bit more, but you know, it's not going to end up in landfill.
- [51:01]
A
So the brand launched. How long was it from the launch of the brand to that first retail store? Was it. Was it a couple of years?
- [51:10]
C
Yeah. So I started working on this in August of 2021. There was a world shut down for a little bit, and that slowed us down.
- [51:19]
A
Some pandemic or something, I remember. Yeah, whatever.
- [51:22]
C
Couldn't travel around the world like I planned to in January, so that got pushed till June. We launched the brand online May 14, 2023. It was mother's Day, which was kind of fun. And then the store opened this March. So, yeah, almost three years we were alive before the store opened.
- [51:41]
A
And what is the thinking about the first store down in soho? How many more you imagine does this spin out into a whole bunch of retail locations so that people can come and. And sit on those sofas, as you had me do, and experience how comfortable it is?
- [52:01]
C
Yes. I think this year we're slated to open another store. Laura spoke about it on the earnings call. So we're being very intentional about the location, the spaces, and making sure we do it with the same footprint we do everything else. So we're also doing all of these other little projects where people can experience the brand, too. I think I told you about the hotel here in West Marin called New Mick's Cove. Yes. Yeah. Last year we styled two cottages all in Green Row. And so people can go and stay in the beds and, you know, feel the sofas and experience it that way. And that's been great for us. And next week, we are launching a new one in Atlanta, just outside of Atlanta, in a green community called Serenity. It's amazing. They have an inn on the property, and we did over the lake house, and. And it's now actually called the Green Row Lake House at Serenity. And we put wallpaper, furniture, bedding, everything. We did it from head to toe. So people will be able to go and rent it out, you know, for a girls trip or a family trip, whatever. But it's really incredible because you see the full scope of the brand throughout the cottage.
- [53:15]
A
That's fantastic. And how do you think about where Green Row sits relative to Pottery Barn, Williams Sonoma Home, all of the other brands in the. In the stable.
- [53:30]
C
Well, so. Because I do William Sonoma Home, too. I say. I say William Sonoma Home is the uptown sister, and Green Row is the downtown sister. And then, okay, you know, Pottery Barn, we cross over a little bit with Price Point in some, but our aesthetic is probably much more eclectic and more vintage, inspired. But I think the way we're positioned is we're all very different. You know, West Elm, Pottery Barn, Williamson Omahol. We all have our unique vision and point of view, but I always joke that there's a downtown sister and an uptown sister for Williamson Omaholme.
- [54:08]
A
Well, so let's talk about your uptown sister, Williamson Omaholm. So, literally just the. This past week's show, I was talking about how big an opportunity I think there is for William Sonoma Home, and I'm wondering how you're thinking about it. And what you're working on and how you're positioning it and the product line that we can see in the future coming from it.
- [54:35]
C
Yeah. So Williams Sonoma Home is a huge opportunity. And not many people realize that when you walk in a Williams Sonoma store, all of the dining tables, all of the chairs that are around those dining tables, the bar stools, the bar carts, all of that is for sale. And the stores can sell you furniture. We also have a flagship store in Columbus Circle where if you walk upstairs, the entire upstairs is home. So there's sofas, there's beds, bedding, all of the things. And Williams Sonoma Home is like the premium brand in the portfolio. And so we produce a lot of of high quality, high design products. Definitely a little bit more traditional than Green Row. And we've done some really exciting collaborations. So we've had a long standing relationship with Aaron Louder. And then we started a collab with Josh Young about two years ago. And he is an amazing designer with a great following. He's a super talented artist and we've expanded our collection with him as well. And then we have have two secret collaborations coming. Oh, three actually coming up this year in the fall, summer and fall timing, which I'm super excited about. And I think, you know, part of Williams Sonoma Homes opportunity is just awareness, you know, making sure that people know that we are a resource for all of these things too. And the quality and the price points and the aesthetic, it fits a lot of homes, but just people kind of forget because it's not like when you walk into maybe a Crate and Barrel store where you see, you know, a footprint of a sofa and a living, you know, a living room or a bedroom on the floor, you just see the kitchen. But if you can imagine what the rest of the house would look like, that's what Williamson on the home is.
- [56:22]
A
And what's your sense of what sales tools actually work these days to attract people's attention? We were talking recently about, sadly, the demise of the Metaverse. And Mark Zuckerberg has come out and said, oh, well, after my $83 billion investment in the Metaverse, turns out it's not really happening. And part of what was tied up in the Metaverse was everyone's fascination at one point with VR technology. And we thought that that was going to help sell furniture in a big way. It doesn't seem like it actually did. And that remarkably, we're still going back in a big way to good old fashioned catalogs and things that arrive in the mail and show you what the product looks like. But how are you thinking about what actually helps product to sell?
- [57:19]
C
Well, I think we have within our portfolio we have outward, which is, is, you know, AI technology and all of the 3D renders and things like that. So Green Row is slowly but surely getting up on that tech because it does take a lot of people to get it. And with a team of, you know, five to six people, it's hard to manage that. I do think that's important for people to be able to visualize what it'll look like. Especially with my product. If you're spending, you know, $5,000 on a sofa and you want to put that brown print that was in the front of the store on it, you want to see what it's going to look like. But I do still believe in, you know, good old fashioned word of mouth. If someone has a good experience and then they tell their friends, you know, we have something right now with someone in California calling the store and she's sending her New York friends in to go and sit on the sofa so that she can then make the purchase. But I love when our catalog goes out. The catalog to me is a way for people to still, you know, touch and feel the brand, even if they're not close to the store. So. So we send two of those a year. And then social media, particularly Instagram is very good for us. We were able to tell the stories behind the product. So our hand knotted rugs, the materials in the sofa, that type of thing for storytelling is very important too. And people do spend a lot of time on our website just reading the stories behind the product, which is great.
- [58:46]
A
We just had the market editor from Elle Decor, Ben Reynard, on the and he's written a wonderful book called the Layered Home. And so much of it seems to fit in so perfectly with green rose mindset and aesthetic and just this more is more and just have fun with it and don't make it all so perfect. And it seems like we're in this time and maybe we're talking ourselves into it more of wanting more whimsy, wanting more, more fun. And it just seems like that has risen to meet the moment of you launching this brand. Do you do a lot of research into what's going on in terms of trends, in terms of what aesthetics people are leaning into? Do you look at human behavior and try and figure out where it's all going?
- [59:41]
C
I would say my research into the human behavior is more about practical uses than trends. I feel like what we develop and Bring in is timeless. And we're lucky that, you know, sort of this maximalist print and pattern and color drenching is all on trend right now. But for me, it's timeless and it's a piece that could live in a home that's completely white walls and, you know, and. And more neutral, or it can be in a home that has wallpaper and, you know, really strong colors of paint. So I definitely like to understand the customer mindset more so than trends. So we do a lot of what are people needing? What are people asking for? And so we've been able to really use what the customer is asking for more so than what the trend is to develop product.
- [60:34]
A
Yeah. Well, what was fun too, when I was in the store and I was trying to. To coax some customers into buying that fun sailboat fabric, and I hope that they did, because it.
- [60:44]
C
She just placed the order.
- [60:46]
A
Is that right? Fantastic. I feel we helped out on that sale and I'm glad.
- [60:51]
C
I think you did.
- [60:52]
A
I think we gave her some confidence. But it made me excited to think too, of consumers buying some fabric, buying some wallpaper, and jumping in in a way that I feel that they do in the UK much more than we do here in the States. And why can't there be some fun shop where you can just go and get some wallpaper and fool around with it yourself and get some fabric and reupholster your sofa and see what happens?
- [61:23]
C
Obviously, I'm very inspired by the English countryside. That's one of my favorite places in the world. And I think that I love sort of that English eccentric look of mixing and matching and these practical things like sink skirts. You know, in all of the hotel projects we've done, we have a sink skirt because the. Below the sink is pretty ugly. So it's, you know, it's. We have this whole, like, thing about COVID ups, and I feel like it's a very English way to do it. The sofa topper could cover up, you know, an ugly spot on the sofa, or the cord cover covers up a cord that you don't want to see. And arm covers protect your sofa and keep them clean so you don't always need to buy a new duvet. Or. But maybe you buy a new quilt to layer on the top of it, or you buy a new throw to put a pillow on your chair. It's like this layering and collecting thing, which I think is so interesting because everything has a story or a reason for being there versus just sometimes people will buy a house and furnish it right away because that. That's what they're supposed to do instead of just maybe living with the space for a little while and then, you know, finding things that you really love and bringing them in slowly. And I love that way, too. And that's kind of how the brand has evolved. You know, we started out with such limited SKUs, and as we've learned from customers and, you know, through doing our own projects. What are these pieces that you can't find in the market? We've grown that way, too. It's almost like we're layering the brand in a way.
- [62:52]
B
Yeah.
- [62:53]
A
Well, I look forward to having you back so that you can tell us more of what you're working on. But I'm grateful for your time and I thank you so much for joining me.
- [63:02]
C
Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you.
- [63:09]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [63:17]
B
Well, first of all, last week, I apologize, there was an error in the uploading of the podcast that caught off the second half of your Caught My Eye and, oh, the public was outraged. So if you. If you missed the second thing that caught Dennis's eye, go back and redownload the episode because the problem has been fixed. Yeah. What caught my eye this week was a great article in Ink magazine by Yelena Alpert about Schoolhouse. You know, we've talked about that. We've talked about them today. We've talked about this brand a lot. You know, how they were once a cool, fuzzy manufacturing operation, and how the acquisition by Food52 kicked off a chain of events that saw them lose so much of their value and eventually go bankrupt. And we've talked about the story a little bit in pieces, but this was a great. You know, Yelena really did the hard yards and put together a great, really exhaustive profile of what really happened behind the scenes. And it's a story worth telling and it's a story worth reading. So I would urge people to go check it out and find out what really happened with Schoolhouse. So that. That was interesting to me. Also, it's April Fool's Day today. We don't have a dumb corporate prank for you here on the Thursday show. I apologize. There's a lot of them out there in the interior design industry. Some of them are funny, some of them are a little flat. But what I kind of enjoyed actually was this fridge company, Rocco, which actually released a product for April Fool's Day, which was they had this coaster that has a space for three drinks on it because there's this whole Internet thing about how you should have three drinks. I'm personally a big drink goblin, so I always have a seltzer, a diet coke, coffee, water. So for me, this, this definitely landed. I very much enjoyed their April Fool's Day prank. What caught your eye this week, Dennis?
- [64:51]
A
I'm often in trouble from my house for having so many glasses around because I too have many beverages going at the same time, so can totally relate. A couple things caught my eye. One, terribly excited about our own Caroline Burke, producer on the show and of course editor of Business of Home, is coming out with a new column, a new series that's going to be getting deep into the world of kitchen and bath, no doubt coming off of her fantastic time at kbis. And I'm excited about that and I think that's an area that we should be talking about more. And it sounds like we will. So go Caroline. I'm, I'm very excited about that and I hope everyone will enjoy reading that. The other thing I wanted to just mention was so last week, right after we finished recording, I raced into the city because the fabulous Young Ha was having a book signing event in the beautiful Zach and Fox showroom. And it, it was so moving to see so much of the design industry show up for this event. And it says so much about who Yang he is and how she is regarded in the industry. And so often we talk about people that you should look up to in this industry and try and emulate. And clearly everybody has such warm feelings towards, towards young who does a lot to bring on young interns in her office and help students get a leg up on their careers. And she's just done a lot to give back to the industry. I know that she's part of the upcoming Kips Bay celebration that will be honoring Jim Druckmann next week at the President's Dinner. But she's just a much beloved figure in the industry. So congrats. Congratulations to her on the new book A Mood, A Thought, A Feeling. But, but lovely to see so much of the industry turn out to celebrate her. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by friends Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Catching. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.