← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Roman and Williams sues over an alleged knockoff. Plus: Ben Reynaert is layermaxxing
01:06:21
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, editor Ben Reynaert joins the show to talk about his new book, The Layered Home.
Loading summary
Transcript157 lines
- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home.
- [00:09]
B
I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show.
- [00:13]
A
Later on, I'll be speaking with Ben
- [00:14]
B
Reynard about his new book, the Layered Home. But first, we're going to catch up
- [00:19]
A
on the news, including a Roman and Williams lawsuit, why home stocks are tanking,
- [00:25]
B
and the end of the metaverse.
- [00:28]
A
To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas.
- [00:32]
B
Hi, Fred.
- [00:33]
C
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:34]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:35]
C
I'm doing much better now that I hear the metaverse is over.
- [00:39]
A
It's sadly coming to an end. Try and control all of your emotions around this subject.
- [00:45]
C
Fred Spring is here. The metaverse is over. I couldn't get any happier. I'm doing well, although last week my voice was kind of hoarse because I went to a party. Now I'm just kind of recovering from a cold. So I hope the listeners do not mind this throaty growl. But I'm glad to hear that you're in golden voiced form as per usual. Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with interior designer Neil Beckstet. Very sweet guy and incredibly talented designer, someone whose work I've been a fan of for a long time.
- [01:16]
A
I have, too. And so it was fun to catch up with him. And he's got a lot of things going on in his life, including the addition of a baby girl, Chloe.
- [01:28]
C
Oh, exciting.
- [01:29]
A
Yes. So that was very fun. I got to virtually meet Chloe recently, and I was pretty excited about that. And it was. It was sort of refreshing to hear a designer talking about the fact that he realized he was working so much, that he didn't have the life that he wanted outside of work. And so in. In recent years, he's gotten married and gotten the family situation going and. And at the same time, scaled back his business quite a bit to, in part, make some of those things happen, but also to sort of regroup a little bit. And. And he didn't like running a firm that was as large as it had gotten.
- [02:08]
C
Well, it kind of gets back to this thing. We seem to talk about it every three months or so. Is the ideal size for an interior design firm is five. Right. We've solved the problem.
- [02:18]
A
Exactly. I don't know why everyone doesn't just get on that program.
- [02:21]
C
Exactly. I mean, I think Neil even made a joke about that, is that he'd heard it on the BoH podcast and that's exactly what his theme is. So there you go, problem solved. But, yeah, I agree. I think it's really important to think about. Like, well, am I not just building the firm I think I'm supposed to build, but am I building the one that really works for me? And it seems clear that that's what Neil is doing, but not. I mean he hasn't scaled back his ambition. I was kind of wondering walking into the conversation like why doesn't he have 10 rug lines and why doesn't he have this and that? And it seems like some of that stuff is coming. So I'm sure we'll have a reason to have Neil back when his five person empire grows bigger and bigger. But it was a fun conversation and again, a truly very talented discussion. I love his work.
- [03:04]
A
Yeah, I mean Fred and I are fans. That is clear. And it's always fun to talk to someone when you're such a fan of their work. And as you say, we were both wondering, why isn't there more Neil Beckstep product out there?
- [03:18]
B
Don't worry friends, there will be soon.
- [03:21]
A
So look for that. And best of luck to Neil with all of that. I hope people enjoy the conversation. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news Foreign.
- [03:34]
B
This podcast is sponsored by Newport Brass Since 1989, Newport Brass has been handcrafting solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures in California. Combining timeless design with exceptional quality. With complete collections spanning traditional to modern and 22 finish options across every product, Newport Brass gives designers and homeowners unmatched creative freedom to make a space that's uniquely theirs. Each piece is built to feel substantial in the hand and look beautiful in the home. Designed for today and made to last for generations. Visit newportbrass.com to explore their full portfolio and to discover craftsmanship that stands the test of time. This podcast is sponsored by laloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art collections. Grounded in ethical production, innovative craft and meticulous design, laloy is known for its strategic planning and the past year has been no exception with their focus on expanding inventory and strengthening manufacturing partnerships abroad. As a family run company built for the long haul, laloy continues to invest in product innovation, operational scale, and the employees who serve its retail and design partners every day. To connect With a dedicated Laloy sales representative, visit loloirugs.com that's L O L-O I rugs.com.
- [05:13]
A
And we're back. First up, Fred, we've got a lawsuit to talk about.
- [05:18]
C
We do. Last month, New York design duo Roman and Williams sued LA designer Ross Cassidy for allegedly knocking off their Oscar lamp, which we Reported on Business of Home late last week. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a lawsuit. Did you get a chance to take a look at my article or read the original complaint?
- [05:36]
A
I became familiar with this lawsuit. Yes. Yes, I did. And you know, as we talk about often on the show, do these lawsuits, do they come to anything? We should talk about it. But let's tell people about the lawsuit. For those who might not have read your story or been familiar, for the
- [05:54]
C
vanishingly few who did not read every story I published on businessofm.com yeah. So the lawsuit basically boils down to an accusation of copying a lamp. So in this case, it's the Oscar lamp by Roman Williams. They released it in 2017 or so. It's part of their offering that they sell through RW Guild. Ross Cassidy, who's LA, actually South African born, but LA based interior designer, longtime CB2 designer, he's worked with the brand for a long time and he came out with the collection, or at least he came out with this lamp sometime in 2025. It's called the Tenant and Roman Williams lawsuit essentially just says, hey, this is too close for comfort to the Oscar lamp. They say they sent a cease and desist letter last August. It was rejected or just not responded to. And so they're going court to try and get Ross Cassidy to do a variety of things in relation to this lamp. Sort of interesting little wrinkle of the lawsuit is that they actually didn't sue CB2 directly, which is kind of perplexing. They didn't answer direct questions about that. But I am curious as to why that's the case, because CB2 is a manufacturer of the lamp. But that's the basic gist of the case. We're going to try and talk about it without taking sides here, but in all sincerity, I don't want a referee, whether this is a knockoff or who's at fault or who should do what. But I do think it's always interesting when these knockoff accusations bubble up to the level of a lawsuit because I think they really clarify how complicated it actually is to prove these things. And what actually is a knockoff. I mean, people in DMs, everything is a knockoff. I get 10 a day. But I think when it actually gets out in the public, it forces you to think about it a little bit more carefully and understand really what you're talking about. And I've certainly been doing a lot of that thinking over the past week.
- [07:41]
A
Well, and as you say, it's hard to say exactly what is a knockoff and what isn't. And as we've talked about in the past, when we speak to experts in the field and legal advisors, they all tell us how difficult it is to really bring these cases, how hard it is to really prove what's, what's happened. And in the lighting world and in the furniture world, it's, it's always a copy of a copy of a copy. And in the end, who, who really did create the very first one of, of anything that we see in the design world these days. So it's, it's always hard to, to know.
- [08:18]
C
You know, it's funny you mentioned lighting and furniture. I think in particular, lighting is one of those categories where it's just prone to all these, you know, knockoff accusations or like just very clear examples of knockoffs because it's a, it's. So it's a product category that has like a really good margin. Right? Like, people sell lighting for much more typically than what they make it for. And I also think it's a category where people pay like a premium for like a good design. But it's not like a sofa, like if they don't sit on a piece of lighting and go like, actually this is crummy. You know, you put it up in your wall and if it looks beautiful and lights the room, it does the job. And so I think that makes it sort of vulnerable to knockoffs because people pay more money for a great design, they're not touching it every day, so they don't perceive the quality of the materials. And I think overseas factories, I mean, some of them are actually the ones making the original item, but other ones are doing a remarkably good job at making knockoffs. And so in some ways, you know, this is a lawsuit between two, you know, high end, 8,100 firms. But the vast majority of like lighting knockoffs are really just these sort of fly by night online sellers on TEMU that make these exact copies. And it's one of the weird ironies of this whole thing is that like the volume of knockoffs is coming from that part of the world, but it's just so hard for anyone in the US to actually sue. You know, it's like you talk to a lawyer, like, I found a website with like 100 copies of my lighting. What can we do about it? And the lawyer's like, nothing, because it's, you know, it's a somewhat vague, you know, legal entity that exists outside of US jurisdiction. It's hard to find the original manufacturer. And so Even though that may be the most visible and obvious example of lighting knockoffs, oftentimes there's just. People just throw their hands up and say, okay, I guess it is what it is.
- [09:51]
A
Well, and again, you mentioned that in this particular lawsuit, they're not going after CB2, which is interesting, and one could speculate as to why that is, but it's interesting that they're not going after the manufacturer necessarily. And what does that tell us? And does that speak to the complexity of this issue as well?
- [10:10]
C
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't want to venture too much of a guess. I asked about that when I. When I sent questions over to Roman. They didn't comment on that. Most people don't comment on a pending lawsuit. Maybe we'll get some sort of clearance about that. You know, it's interesting. You know, I spoke to our friend of the show, Seth Kaplowitz, the attorney, about this issue, and, you know, he was talking about, you know, and you mentioned this, Dennis, but, like, one of the problems is, like, even if you are absolutely convinced that someone has knocked you off taking it to court, it's not that it's rarely worth it. It's just, it's. It gets really expensive. It's very complicated. You spend a ton of money pursuing a lawsu. And I don't think people typically make their money back. And so sort of the weird X factor of all of this is that sometimes people just decide to pursue a lawsuit because they feel like they've had enough, you know, whether the particular example that's in front of them is the most salient example or not. They've just decided they're going to, you know, I think Seth said something like, we're just going to take a stand, you know, and I think, you know, it's possible that's what's happening here.
- [11:05]
A
Well, exactly. I think it's. It's so hard to prove and to win and the costs and everything else in my mind. And it sounds like you might feel same way. There's something else at play here. And maybe Roman and Williams, as you say, is just tired of feeling like many people might be, in their minds, knocking them off, and maybe they're just taking a stand and saying, we're just going to pick this particular one and say, this is just us taking a stand for the sake of saying no mas. We just. We just can't. Just can't take it anymore.
- [11:36]
C
Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to speculate too much because again, they didn't say anything for, you know, in the interview. So there's a. I'm the one just
- [11:44]
A
wildly speculating about any number of things.
- [11:46]
C
Well, but, I mean, I think other people will be reading the article and speculating as well, too. So I don't think that's crazy. It's just that I don't want to go on a limb because, I don't know. One thing I will say is, again, and I mentioned this at the beginning of the conversation, is that I think knockoffs, really often, they sort of seem simple on the face, like, this is a dupe of that or this is a copy of that. But really, when it gets to the legal level, it just gets so much more complicated. There was that big lawsuit between Quince and William Sonoma. I actually should check on that. And it was all about how Quince was. Quince is a dupe brand. They literally advertise around, like William Williams Sonoma, but cheaper.
- [12:19]
A
They present themselves as such.
- [12:21]
C
Exactly. But the lawsuit, ironically, was not saying, you've stolen our designs, our copyright designs. It was all about false advertising and making unfair comparisons. So you really see that something that seems simple on its face gets very complicated when it gets in court. And so, I mean, it's interesting for reporters and interesting for rubberneckers, but never as simple as it seems in that first, as it does in that outraged Instagram DM that I get. So, one to keep an eye on whether this actually goes all the way to trial. I mean, I would say odds are against it, but we'll keep an eye on it. We'll see what happens. It's an interesting situation.
- [12:55]
A
I'm sure we'll learn more in the coming weeks. In the meantime, we're going to move
- [12:58]
B
on and talk about the stock market.
- [13:01]
A
2026 has not been kind to publicly traded stocks in the home world, with shares of retailers like RH and Our
- [13:09]
B
House losing more than a quarter of their value.
- [13:12]
A
And the hits just keep on coming. Fred.
- [13:15]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's just funny. This item sort of came out of us sort of talking about this and looking up the stock prices of all these and realizing, like, holy Hannah. All of our favorites, rh, Our House, Wayfair, Ethan Allen, have all really been taking a beating since the beginning of the year, despite us talking about how the warm weather is going to make everyone buy a house and go shopping for furniture. And so it just. It seemed like a moment to sort of take stock. I don't know. Do you want to go through these numbers a little bit and really share how bad it's been on the market.
- [13:45]
A
Well, it's interesting because I actually have charts of these stocks up all day on my computer. Just sort of a little window into Dennis's day. I mean, I'm always sort of reading the mood and the temperature of the home industry in part through what the equity market is saying about all of this. And because we've been pinning so much of our hopes for a recovery in the home world, of course I end up looking at the ten year treasury and that impacts the price of mortgages. And so if you look at the price of these stocks, there's been a lot going on because of that. And so maybe we should break down a little bit of what's been going on in the market and what's been driving these prices so much lower.
- [14:32]
C
Yeah, I mean, just a quick, quick run of the greatest hits here. So Restoration Hardware RH is $257 today. It's down to 1 28. So it's like roughly half. It's lost 33%. The shares have lost 33% of their value since the beginning of the year. Our house, not that much different. 52 week high is around 13 bucks. Today's price is 650. Again, lost about half its value year to date. Performance is down 42%. It's more, you know, it's kind of more of the same as you keep churning through it. You know, wayfair is down 30% over the year. Easton Allen is a little flatter, but it was kind of going off a lower base to begin with. Is there sort of a unified theory, Dennis, as to why all of these companies, especially the sort of the more high end retailers, are just universally not loved by Wall street traders right now? Why is everyone selling these stocks at the moment?
- [15:18]
A
We were trying to recover from what we perceived to be the inflation caused by tariffs. And everyone had sort of found their footing that and they had already begun to mark home stocks down because of what they perceived to be the issue with tariffs. And unfortunately, part of what was going on was that inflation never came down in the way that many were hoping for. And so that led to people believing that, okay, well, if inflation doesn't come down, then it's not going to be as easy for the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates. And that was a big hope that was driving so much of the market. And so everybody thought, oh great, we're going to have several rate cuts and the housing market's going to come back and that's going to Be great. And then came the war. And a somewhat unexpected response, because normally in a war, interest rates would come down because everybody would start buying Treasuries as what they call a flight to safety. But unfortunately, this particular war was a war that involved the price of oil. And the price of oil skyrocketed, which further contributed to inflation, which meant, unfortunately, that rates didn't go down. In fact, they went up instead. And so we were talking recently about mortgage rates coming down below 6% for that 30 seconds that they actually did. Unfortunately, they've rocketed back up to over 6.5% now. And that's a huge component of how people on Wall street evaluate these home stocks. So now they said, well, these guys, which were already telling us they were having trouble, they're going to have an even tougher environment. And that's why many of them are down more than 30% year to date and have fallen so dramatically from the highs that they were at during COVID Did you know that Wayfair was up to a valuation of over 35 billion dollars during COVID and now is worth about 6 billion? Right. And Restoration Hardware was up over 11 and a half billion. And now you can get it for a mere two and a half billion, Fred. I mean, we could practically buy RH now, right?
- [17:20]
C
I mean, put together the podcast revenue and make a play.
- [17:24]
A
So we got very carried away about these valuations years ago at the peak, and now these share prices have come down dramatically because what we're looking at is unfortunately, a higher for longer scenario, which everybody feared would be the case. It seems increasingly difficult for the Federal Reserve to dramatically cut rates to get mortgage rates back below 6%. Many in the home world. I had a call with an executive just today who said, truthfully, I don't think the home world is moving until it goes below five again. Well, you're not gonna be getting below five for quite some time. And unfortunately, if you do think that's the case, that's gonna be a long wait.
- [18:04]
C
Yeah, well, I guess I'm curious, like, do you feel like any of this changes the perception that the high end is still relatively safe? I mean, most of the super high end trade companies that we talk about, the designer shop at, are not really on the stock market. I mean, we've talked before about how the very affluent are not necessarily Getting a normal 30 year fixed rate mortgage. Does any of this movement change that thesis for you?
- [18:28]
A
The inflation component is significant. And unfortunately what's happening in the market overall is we've seen a Huge correction not just in the home stocks, but in many of the stocks that were driving the excitement of the AI story. So if you look at the big, what they call the Mag seven stocks, all these hyperscalers that are spending hundreds of billions of dollars building out the infrastructure for AI, your Googles, your Apples, they're actually struggling as well. So many people might see that their portfolio is struggling and so even the well to do might be looking at their recent statements and just seeing things aren't quite as rosy as they once were. And that's part of the concern.
- [19:14]
C
So the weird kind of one exception to all of this is Williams Sonoma, which is that they haven't exactly been on a stock market tear recently. They're still down from their 52 week high and they're down year to day, but they're a lot less down than a lot of their competitors. And they had their quarterly earnings call which was went remarkably well and they had a good fiscal 2025. They seem to be doing something right right now. Having listened to the call and looked at the numbers, what's your take on why Williams Sonoma is sort of the exception to the rule right now?
- [19:46]
A
I think there's a lot of things that are going on for Williams Sonoma. And as we've talked about, the CEO Laura Alber is just a super smart and very Wall street sensitive CEO. She really knows how to do.
- [20:01]
C
She said AI a lot in the call. So she knows what but yes, well,
- [20:06]
A
and she knows that what's important is she keeps driving home this message that they're very focused on technology, they're very focused on digital first, and they're very focused on continuing to build out these marquee brands. And so they have the good fortune of being in a lot of different categories with a lot of different powerful brands. So they reach a younger audience with West Elm and they reach a more mature audience with Pottery Barn and William Sonoma. But they also know how to make Wall street happy. So they announce a dividend increase and they say that they're managing their finances and they don't have debt and they're doing all the things that Wall street likes to hear. There's a perception that they're being conservative with how they're spending money versus an rh, for example, which everybody knows borrowed a bunch of money, bought back a bunch of stock, is spending money wildly on opening new locations which may not pay off. And so in contrast, Williams Sonoma seems the more mature company with a more predictable cash flow and there aren't as many surprises. Wild gyrations up and down.
- [21:22]
C
Yeah. And when everything else is wildly gyrating, I'm guessing that people want to buy that stock. Yeah. It was an interesting call. Like, Laura Albra is very smart and once again, this is a subtle plea for her to come on the show. So hopefully someone can spread the word and have her come on the podcast. But. But it was an interesting call. As you mentioned, West Elm seems to be doing really well. They just announced a big partnership with Emma Chamberlain, who's a huge influencer, and they have a campaign around it that's pretty cool. Another people in furniture.
- [21:50]
A
Another people. Exactly.
- [21:51]
C
And who better than a giant influencer in your furniture if it's going to be a person? There was a lot of good stuff on the call. One thing, this is a very small moment that I don't think influenced the stock at all. But they were talking about how they want to do this thing called, I think it's Design Services 3.0 or Design Something 3.0. And it was very clearly they want to use AI to do like interior design and point people to their stuff. And that's not a revelation. We've talked about this before, but I feel like a few years ago I was saying, well, you don't really need to worry about AI if you're a full service residential interior designer, but if you're an interior designer working for a retailer doing design over the phone to help people buy Pottery Barn, you should worry. And I think this call really laid home the point that people are going to be using retailers are going to be using AI to sell their stuff. And so I think it was just interesting to hear that. And that kind of jumped out at me. For sure.
- [22:42]
A
I agree. And what I thought was interesting about the call, in conclusion around this whole conversation was the fact that Pottery Barn, which is their huge brand, isn't even doing as well as they would like it to do. It's almost as if they've got one hand slightly tied behind their back and they're still managing to produce the growth and the cash flow and everything. It makes me think, think that if they can figure out some of what's bothering them about Pottery Barn, and I think they can, I think a lot could happen there. And we haven't even talked about Williams Sonoma Home, which I still think is such a huge opportunity for them and one they're still trying to figure out as well. So there are levers to be pulled there. And I think they continue to be the one to Watch on an operational front. So stay tuned for that. We might talk about them in this
- [23:29]
B
next segment, which is a children's design gold rush.
- [23:33]
A
Fred.
- [23:33]
C
This week, our producer Caroline Burke, who's sadly not manning the boards today. So the audio quality is bad.
- [23:40]
A
Sounds suffering.
- [23:41]
C
Exactly. You can blame me. She wrote a great article for Business of Home Profiling, a surge in design aimed at a surprising audience. Kids. Dennis, what do you think about this, kids?
- [23:53]
A
Well, exactly. There was a piece in the article that really hit home for me, was talking about, well, you know, your living room is all nice and everything, but it's going to get messed up when all the kids come in and tear through. Which is the story of how kids entered my life. They came into my life, Fred, and they wrecked my living room and changed my life for the better. But now there are so many new things to offer them versus the fine Scandinavian furniture that I had in my room.
- [24:20]
C
And it's something I noticed since I was covering interior design before I had kids. And then afterwards I was like, wait a minute, how does it that living room stay like that? I'm sure it doesn't. But, yeah, this was a great piece by Caroline. She really touched on a lot of different things. I think one thing that sort of jumped out to me is I had kind of noticed this too, is that there are these brands that are targeting kids or kids rooms, and they were getting kind of chic and cool. And that was something I'd sort of observed in the marketplace, but I don't really think I'd ever thought about why. And Caroline talked a lot about how, like many other things, it's a Covid phenomenon. We were all at home getting sick of how our apartments and homes looked, and that includes our kids apartment. And also another angle which I definitely hadn't thought of is this idea that kids rooms are so rarely produced editorially. It's so rare that in AD or House Beautiful, you'll see a kid's room as part of the editorial package. But since COVID when everyone started sharing so much more of their lives and so much more of their homes, you'd start to see celebrities and influencers talk about, like, okay, well, this is my house and this is my kid's room. And here's the thing I did in there, you'd start to see a lot more of that content just in your daily life. And I think it made people think like, oh, okay, this is part of design, too. And that's, I think, part of why there's been this surge both from Interior designers and brands trying to target that audience and that room in the house. So very clever to kind of tease all that apart.
- [25:44]
A
Funny enough, it made me think back to David Netto back in the day when David Netto was designing children's furniture, which was some of the hippest, coolest children's furniture around for quite some time. And we talked about Duck Duck, which was another fun brand for children's furniture. But a lot of places it wasn't easy to find, and it wasn't as cool and chic as I think many people wanted to include in projects. And I love that now there's so much more available, and the children's room is sort of getting more attention, and I think should. And we should see them much more in shelter publications and people. People's books.
- [26:23]
C
Yeah, it's interesting. It's such a complicated category, though, right? Because, like, okay, like, first of all, there's the obvious factor, which is that you're buying stuff for your kids, and your kids are a certain size, and they will not be that size for very long. So there's no, like, forever children's chair. You know what I mean? So that's like, a fundamental challenge. The other challenge is, obviously, kids change a lot, and so you don't want to get locked in too much to buying something that's going to either not serve their needs physically or feel weird stylistically in a couple years. And then it's hard for the producers, too, because as someone said, I think it was Laura Appleton said in the story, it's like, it's not that much cheaper to produce a nice kid's chair than it is to produce an adult's chair. But, like, you know, you end up with doing a lot less volume, and you're targeting someone at a very specific time in their life. And so I think a lot of producers have tried to make really cool children's furniture, only to realize the market is really tough, and it's hard to sustain the business over a long period of time. We should say, I don't think Duck Duck exists anymore. And I know David Netto, you know, sold his business, so I think there's a lot. There's always, like, this surge of interest in it. But then these, you know, companies kind of fade away into the background. So that, you know, it'd be. Because it's a difficult market. You know, one thing I thought was really brilliant, Caroline profiled in the story, is this trend of, like, trying to make kids furniture that turns into something else, you know, like a Bassinet that turns into storage or like a crib that turns into. I don't know what the crib turns into, but that was, I thought of a clever way around sort of the fundamental problem of kids furniture.
- [27:48]
A
Well, and I love when I talk to designers and they tell me that they get super involved with the kids and really ask them what they want. Just before we came on air, I saw that House Beautiful had put up an image of this absolutely charming bunk bed that Amber Lewis had designed for a client. And it had these lovely steps up to the upper bunk and there was a little curtain you could close. And I've seen several images from designers. I think our friend Stephanie Sabi was designing a really fabulous, this bunk bed set as well. I love when designers say, oh yes, they're, they're part of my, my clientele is the, is the kids and the rooms that they want. And it seems like grown ups are spending a lot more on it. So I'm, I'm happy about that.
- [28:32]
C
Yeah. Well, I would say Stephanie Savvy's is not just like a bunk bed. She built like a house within her house.
- [28:37]
A
Exactly.
- [28:37]
C
Like a dollhouse, but it's like her size kids in her house. Yeah, I mean that's, you know, the other kind of couple part about it is like, ostensibly this is all designed for kids, but we all know that it's designed for the parents who are designing for the kids. It's a very complicated, you know, Venn diagram of what you're actually trying to do. So I think kudos to the people who really pull it off. You know, I think it's a, it's a really cool niche with a lot of challenges, but for people who can make it work, it's a really fun one.
- [29:03]
A
I agree and I, and I hope we see a lot more of it. In the meantime, one place where we're not going to see them, Fred, is sadly, the Metaverse. Last week, Meta, the company formerly known
- [29:14]
B
as Facebook, announced it would be radically scaling back its Metaverse platform, Horizon Worlds,
- [29:21]
A
after spending a, reported, wait for it, $83 billion to get it off the ground. That's right, 83 billion. And, oh, it just didn't work out too bad.
- [29:31]
C
Try, try again. It's one of those things where you realize the sheer scale of a company like Meta, like if I lost $83, that would ruin my day. They can lose 83 billion and it's on to the next. Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, why are Dennis and Fred talking about this? I Mean, certainly Schadenfreude. I think, like, you know, there was so much hullabaloo at the time. Facebook changed its name to meta in 2021, largely because they wanted to make the Metaverse a thing at the time. This is a quote from Mark Zuckerberg at the time. Our hope is that within the next decade, the Metaverse will reach a billion people, host hundreds of billions of dollars of digital commerce and support jobs for millions of creators. Did not happen. And I think that, like, it's a reminder that not everything that comes out of Silicon Valley comes true and is going to transform our worlds. I remember that, you know, this wasn't really as big of a deal in the home world, but there were some, you know, I think IKEA opened up a store in the Metaverse or something. There were people trying to get in on it, and it just wasn't meant to be.
- [30:33]
A
There was so much talk about real estate transactions in the Metaverse. And you quoted Mark Zuckerberg there. What was fascinating was going back and seeing some of the incredible reports that came out of reputable Wall street firms. JP Morgan had released a white paper entitled Opportunities in the Metaverse. And they were at the time, and when I say at the time, less than four years ago, were predicting this was going to be a $1 trillion market. And part of it was there was going to be so much real estate development going on in the Metaverse, and designers were going to need to train themselves how to work on projects that they were going to be getting in the Metaverse. And I hope they didn't put other projects on hold because they were waiting for those. No, no, I can't take, I can't take your, your real life project right now because I'm waiting for the Metaverse project that's being built out. Yeah, I mean, and remember, it was also Roblox was, had gotten so popular and everybody thought, sure, this is the entryway onto this. They played their, their kids game for a while and they thought, no, I totally see how this is going to happen, happen. And everybody just got wildly carried away by it all.
- [31:46]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the, that's the problem is people look at like, kid behavior and they're like, oh, like, that's forevermore, it shall be thus. You know, but it's like, I don't know. You know, I like to play Super Mario Brothers when I was a kid. I don't want. I don't live my life according to the tenets of Super Mario Brothers. I Mean, I think it's, you know, it's one of those weird things where I think. I think, again, the tendency is schadenfreude, and we should definitely indulge in that. But I do think there are some interesting ideas there. I liked that people did the virtual show houses. They weren't taking place in the Metaverse, but they were an interesting way to bring the show house concept to designers who couldn't physically travel. I think people had all kinds of virtual showrooms, and I don't know if that's still as much of a thing. It's an interesting idea. I actually think some of the technology is really cool. I still think the Apple Vision Pro is a really powerful technology, but it just doesn't seem like people have really embraced it. I think it comes down to the very obvious point, just that the real world is better. I don't know how to put it more simply than that, but it's just kind of true.
- [32:53]
A
I think that Apple's product was really interesting. Clearly, Meta is investing more in the Ray Bans and that actually does seem to be really popular and people are using that. And I am struck as you all that virtual reality seemed like it was going to be such an effective tool, funny enough, to sell furniture. The home brands were leaning into it in a huge way. Right. And everybody was saying, no, no, once you're able to see that sofa in your living room, it's going to change the game. But it really hasn't. And people thought that they weren't going to be going back to showrooms in much the same way, and turns out that they are.
- [33:30]
B
And I say thank goodness for.
- [33:32]
D
For that.
- [33:32]
C
I agree. I think we'll find little uses for the technology, but we won't be living inside of it, I think is the takeaway for that. You know, one final note before. Before we move on here, but like, you know, as you mentioned, they spent $83 billion on the metaverse. I think they're still doing some stuff, but, yeah, it's largely kind of gone to waste. You know, in the same breath, Facebook is saying, or Meta is saying, rather, they're going to spend $130 billion on AI. And, you know, I wonder, like, are we going to look in four years back at that investment as. As wise or foolish? I think it's more complicated because people do use AI in their daily life, but do they use it to the tune of $130 billion over the next few years? What do you think is. I think. I think it's pretty obvious AI isn't as silly from a hype perspective as the Metaverse. But you know, is this a good cautionary tale for everyone who will get wrapped up in what's being peddled out of Silicon?
- [34:26]
A
Well, I think to your point, it's important for everyone to look at this story and see to step back and put in perspective what happened, the frenzy, and of course a lot of this was Covid driven and all of that. And the world seems like such a different place all those years ago. But yes, we're all so terrified about this future that we're all so certain about. And to your point, the hyperscalers as I referenced earlier, or Google and Meta and everybody else in that space is spending hundreds of billions of dollars each themselves on their build out for what they imagine AI is going to do for them. And not all of them can be winners. And it's hard to imagine that all of that money is going to come back to them in a meaningful way. Sometimes people just get ahead of themselves and perhaps we're getting ahead of ourselves with some of the fears about what AI will ultimately mean for our world. I certainly hope so anyway.
- [35:26]
C
Fred yes, me too. Me too.
- [35:29]
A
All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including advice from Sean Lowe on running a solo design firm and
- [35:37]
B
a roundup of April's can't miss events. But first, a quick break. This spring, Laloy heads to High Point Market with an exciting lineup of new introductions, including a debut rug collection featuring a groundbreaking new construction along with a beautiful new season from Rifle Paper company. They're also hosting exclusive showroom events, including one with designer Amber Lewis. If you're attending High Point, book an appointment or connect with your laloy sales representative at Laloy Rugby. That's L o l o I rugs.com Newport brass, the premier maker of solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures has recently expanded their product portfolio with ultra thin shower heads, additional lavatory offerings and new kitchen extensions in their celebrated Taft and Haney collections.
- [36:35]
A
These expansions give designers and homeowners even
- [36:38]
B
more flexibility to create truly bespoke, luxurious spaces that are built to last. Visit newportbrass.com new to learn more.
- [36:54]
A
And we're back. I'm joined now by a gentleman who wears many hats these days. He's the market editor at El Decor as well as the co founder of the Ticking Tent and author of the new book the Laird Home. Ben Reynard, welcome to the show.
- [37:11]
D
Thank you so much Dennis, I'm thrilled to be here. It's great to see you.
- [37:15]
A
Well, it's great to get to talk with you and I'm excited. First time author, Ben Reynard. How does that feel?
- [37:22]
D
I'm so excited. It feels incredible. It's a little bit surreal. As, you know, books are, you know, quite an endeavor. It took a couple of years to, to birth this into the world, so I couldn't be more thrilled to see it.
- [37:39]
A
And what was the thinking behind it? So what made you want to do a book and as you say, take
- [37:45]
B
on the very heavy lift, Ben, of
- [37:48]
A
putting a book like this together?
- [37:50]
D
Well, it's funny, Dennis. I was having dinner with my friend and former colleague from traditional home, Christina Paletto, and we were just having a boozy, fun evening in Brooklyn, and she was like, I love your Instagram. Why don't you make that into a book? You know, Instagram has always been my own space. It's been my own place for creativity. And that was the energy I really wanted to bring forward in the book. It was my opportunity to really curate and call through everything that I've seen. People I've met. Like, I really went back and looked and thought about who is a really interesting person. Like, who am I curious about, whose work do I really admire? And I'm really interested in, like, getting behind the scenes, like opening up the door and really seeing what their spaces were like. And that really kind of helped to drive the concept of the book forward.
- [38:56]
A
So tell people a little bit about the, the idea behind the book. It. It sounds like, yes, you getting into some of these people's homes, many of whom are, are interesting collectors, none of whom are shy about putting a lot of stuff in their spaces and, and revealing, I'm, I'm guessing a lot of their personality in doing so.
- [39:18]
D
You're spot on. Layers is key. I think perfection is boring, and I believe in a little bit of questionable taste, to be honest.
- [39:29]
A
I like it.
- [39:31]
D
I really respond to rooms with tension. Rooms that have a lot of old things mixed with new things. A lot of super polished fine objects mixed with kind of worn out and sort of maybe less desirable things too. I think editing painting isn't always about taking things away, but it's about making sure every single piece really earns its keep in a room. And one thing that I told my publisher, which is Clarkson Potter, a part of Penguin Random House, was that I wanted to shoot the entire book, 100% original photography, all new. So I called up my friend Manuel Rodriguez, who's an Incredible interiors photographer. And he was someone I knew I could like traverse down the one lane roads in the British countryside and you know, we got lost trying to find Ambrose Miller's really unassuming home, like on the side of the road asking for directions, like going the wrong way, you know. So Ambris is a great example. She's an incredible young antiques dealer. She's from Birmingham, Alabama but resides in Suffolk in the uk. And I had never, we had actually never met. We've been friends on Instagram so we're always messaging each other and dming like, I love her eye. And I was like, I am pretty sure her space is going to be amazing.
- [41:09]
A
And so we're just gonna show up, I'm just gonna bring a photographer and we're just gonna show up at her house.
- [41:16]
D
Exactly, exactly. She got a heads up. But she was more than willing and excited to participate. And her place is incredible. I mean it's like entering into the world of a collector. She's got multiple buildings on her property just like brimming with interesting objects. And she's a great follow too on
- [41:40]
A
Instagram, it seems like. So this is a very transatlantic book. And I'm wondering if there is anything that you have learned over time about how, how they do it in the uk, how they do it overseas versus how we do it here back at home. What's your, what's your take on that?
- [42:01]
D
Well, for starters, I think I'm secretly like an 87 year old British.
- [42:07]
A
I think that's true. I think that's exactly
- [42:11]
D
so for some odd reason like the British style and country house style really resonates with me. And I think the best antiques and the best objects are over in England and Spain and in France and you know, they're all over Western Europe. And I think people in the UK are used to keeping things longer and they're used to inheriting things and not getting rid of old things. I think too we're so trained to redo a whole room and like change the palette. And that involves changing everything in the room, recovering things. And I think from what I understand and from what I can glean in the UK in particular, is that that there's just more of a willingness to like mix things in and live with things as they are. And I think we kind of get caught up in creating these sort of pristine spaces where everything is super, super thought out and like the placement of the leaf motif on a cushion is really considered. And I'm not saying that's at all wrong or Bad. I think it creates incredible spaces. Like, it's a privilege and an honor and a joy to see really thought out spaces like that and experience them in person.
- [43:42]
A
But also, Ben feels that we're just too hung up on perfection.
- [43:46]
B
Right.
- [43:47]
D
Yeah. I think that, you know, there's. I see so many spaces and so many places kind of just, you know, I feel like showrooms or. I'm really curious and interested in places that feel collected over time. I think the rooms that are most intriguing to me reflect who lives in them. And you can very clearly tell from the way things are put together from the objects that are in. You learn so much about the style and the taste of the person who lives there.
- [44:27]
A
Yeah. And I'm curious, Ben, what your experience with this has been too. I was chatting with the folks at Liberty of London earlier today, you know, as one does.
- [44:38]
D
Right.
- [44:40]
A
And we were having this conversation about how. I just feel like there's so much more use of wallpaper in private, Private, relatively small homes, not grand spaces. We all know about those. But I feel like the everyday person in the UK tends to have way more wallpaper than we do here in the States. And part of it, the Liberty people were saying is, yeah, a lot of people just go and they get some wallpaper and they put it up themselves. And that's just how they think about it. And they don't sort of make a big fuss, they don't make a big production. And. And I feel like that comes through in a lot of these spaces. I just get much more of a kind of DIY sensibility going on here. What's your take?
- [45:25]
D
Absolutely. People think they need a plan, and what they really need is permission.
- [45:32]
A
And you're gonna give it to them.
- [45:33]
D
Right now, my hope is. Yeah, I mean, my hope is that the book, you know, and I realized this more over time, is that it will encourage its audience to really try things, to fail epically, to test their own taste and to find their voice. And I think the people that we've gathered in the book really do have a unique voice and are willing to try things. I mean, Patty o', Donnell, who is the brand ambassador for Farambal, he lives in. In the UK as well. He is, like, so masterful at decorating for less. He has a very trained eye. He understands really strong motifs and ideas in decorating, and he's able to just whip them up himself with a glue gun and a needle and thread. And so. So his home is really exciting for that, you know, like, really seeing what you can do with just a bit of paint or like some fabric that you found at a yard sale?
- [46:45]
B
And do you get the sense that
- [46:47]
A
in the US we've begun to give ourselves permission more, or do you think that people are still too anxious or nervous? We've often talked about how in the US we're so focused, to your point, about people moving around so much much. We're so focused on resale or we're so focused on the next person who's going to have our house or our apartment. And is that misguided?
- [47:12]
D
I think the style is shifting. I think the next generation, Gen Z and even younger, they're really interested in thrifting. They're like, modifying their clothing. They're interested in analog technology. I'm watching Love Story now and like everyone else and, you know, kind of yearning for the days, but like before the Internet and in New York in particular. So I think there is this desire to connect with a little bit more personality.
- [47:50]
A
And to your point, I think people often don't necessarily have the language to describe what their personal style or taste is. It's almost a discovery process that they have to go through, don't you think?
- [48:05]
D
Absolutely. I think it's just a willingness to try things and a willingness to just get out there and, you know, buy things, shop, pick up things from a tag sale, try moving things around. I'm a big believer in just. Just like sometimes on a weekend I'll just move everything from one room to the other just to see what it's like. And I think if you're interested and if you're curious about finding your own style and finding your own taste, I think the people featured in the book really kind of shine a light on what's possible. And I think it's, you know, for me, like, I was inspired really by every single person's home that I was able to visit.
- [49:02]
A
You were mentioning about Patty o', Donnell, whose space is fabulous and fun and he's the brand ambassador for Farrow and Ball. So of course, why wouldn't it be? I feel as though you are the brand ambassador for this whole layered home. Take a chance. Put your personality out there. Do you feel and is this book part of you leaning into this notion that you, Ben Reynard, have built this brand around how you come at the world and what you are a champion of?
- [49:37]
D
Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I will add that to my resume for sure.
- [49:42]
A
I think you should get on that LinkedIn page and update.
- [49:46]
D
Exactly. Well, it's funny, you know, back when I Worked at House Beautiful maybe nine or ten years ago. I was in charge of producing an entertaining column. And I got the opportunity to work with the designer Alex Papa Christieges, who you know well, and I was in awe. Meeting him at his apartment in New York, stepping inside his world, just seeing the attention to detail, Everything from the height of the light switches to the trim that was on the trim, on another trim, on a curtain. I mean, it was like I was really in awe of the detail and his way of living. He had, you know, a landline, which I thought was amazing. So. So I think seeing how exuberant, expressive creatives live is just endlessly inspiring and fascinating. And I want to see more of that in the design market, to be quite honest.
- [50:59]
A
And when you run around in your capacity as a market editor, are you seeing more of that being brought forward from brands? Are there brands that feel like they're taking chances more?
- [51:13]
D
I am seeing more pattern and more color coming through. And I think what's really inspiring and informative and what I love so much about being a market editor is that, you know, it all kind of starts in the market.
- [51:30]
A
Tell me about that. It all starts in the market.
- [51:32]
B
Tell me what you mean.
- [51:33]
D
I mean, that's, to me, where ideas are kind of coming forward from top product designers, like industry tastemakers, people designing new products, coming up with new solutions for living, people who are pushing the boundaries in terms of, like, what and how we think about decorating and creating spaces for ourselves. I like seeing all of those kind of ideas percolating in the market. And I think once you start to see things over and over again, you start to see where new ideas are taking shape and where certain things kind of start to just become more ubiquitous.
- [52:22]
A
We should tell people who might not be familiar about the Ticking tent, one of the other hats that you wear. And I know the next ticking tent is scheduled and coming up, and we should tell people about the that. So talk about that, describe it a little bit for people and how that is just such a natural part of being an extension of what you do.
- [52:43]
D
Right, Absolutely. And thank you for mentioning it. Our next event is May 2nd in Litchfield, Connecticut, at Spring Hill Vineyards. It's an incredible property, and the idea really came about with a friend and colleague of mine, Christina Warranty, as we were just chatting about all of our favorite dealers and all of our favorite antiques vendors and how, you know, during the pandemic, so many people left New York and really kind of wanted to celebrate them and kind of gather our favorite people under One tent, a striped tent, as it were. And. And just share those individuals with our community. And, you know, I think we're all really hungry for discovery and finding that next piece or that next thing. And I think myself and colleagues and friends in the industry, like, we all love the thrill of the hunt. So it really did become a natural extension.
- [53:53]
A
Yeah. And so now. And it's a show that you put up a couple of times a year, and it seems to have a lot of momentum to it.
- [54:02]
D
Yes, yes. It's now twice yearly in Litchfield, Connecticut, in the spring, in Bedford in the fall. And I really believe that these antiques, these unique objects, these artisan goods, these are the only things that will really have value in the future. So I'm all for supporting. And we have an incredible roster of over 60 dealers, artisans, boutique brands that don't have a strong brick and mortar presence. So, you know, the mission really is to curate a marketplace for discovery and to really kind of, like, support those with, like, addictive behaviors like me.
- [54:50]
A
Well, and thankfully, there seem to be many out there with similar addictive behaviors who will be there in great number when the show opens. And it's always fun, and it's great to discover a lot of new resources that people might not be familiar with already. And to that point, Ben, I'm wondering if there are some fun resources or some fun shops that you've discovered recently that are worth sharing with people that you were delighted by or happy to stumble upon.
- [55:20]
D
Yes, I'm seeing a lot out there. There's this one tabletop brand that I'm really excited about called Gannon Monroe. And Maureen, the founder, makes these incredible glass plates in addition to textiles and table linens. But, you know, they're really bold, graphic colors. And I don't see a ton of glass plat plates. I see a lot of, you know, really beautiful Murano glassware and vases and pictures. But, like, plates feel kind of unique and interesting and different to me, and then, you know, in lots of fun colors with piped borders. So, you know, we're looking for those kind of unique things that you don't kind of see in every shop or you're not seeing, you know, all across Instagram all the time.
- [56:12]
A
Staying with Instagram, we've been having this conversation a lot about how the incredible impact that Instagram has had on the design industry. Right. For better or for worse, and in some cases, both, surely. Right. Some people have launched their careers through Instagram. And listen, here you are. Developed this huge following. Look at you. I Mean, now you're a star and you've got a book and you're a market editor and you're all this. And Instagram certainly helps. But my point is, what's also happened, and what you were just alluding to is that it makes us feel as if, oh, we've already seen this before, or, oh, this feels so repetitive. Or, oh, this feels so similar, in part because the algorithm works that way. It knows what you.
- [56:56]
D
Oh, it knows.
- [56:57]
A
Yeah. So, first of all, what the heck is it showing you all the time, Ben? That's what I want to know. But also, how do you think about Instagram and the impact that. That it's. That it's had?
- [57:08]
D
You know, Instagram is such an incredible tool, and I think people love to sort of poo, poo it. But I was, you know, I had a BlackBerry, Dennis. I've been around.
- [57:22]
A
I missed the keyboard, to be honest.
- [57:24]
D
And I remember countless people in the industry being like, oh, Instagram's not for me. That's, you know, not. My clients aren't there. And, you know, things just change and evolve. And I think that's one thing that I celebrate. You know, like, change really is the only constant in our world. And I think, you know, embracing these platforms, being the sort of being in charge of your own brand, it's kind of incredible that we're able to do that. And. And I think that's really where designers are being discovered, and I think that's really where new things are being found. The eyeballs are there. So why not work within and embrace the audience there?
- [58:20]
A
Well, I wonder, Ben, staying with that notion, we joke about what an incredible multitasker you are in all of the different hats, but. But in all of that, you have. One of the many things that I admire about what you've been able to do over the years is constantly reinvent staying very true to a core that you clearly show the world. But also, you've been very quick to learn new skills and very quick to adapt. And I wonder if through all of that, you have developed a mindset or an approach that helps guide you through all of that.
- [59:00]
D
Oh, go on, go on.
- [59:02]
B
Dennis.
- [59:02]
D
Thank you.
- [59:03]
A
Because, I mean, you've just. You've figured so much of it out. And I wonder how.
- [59:08]
D
I mean, you know, honestly, like, everyone should probably ignore everything that I'm saying, but I do feel that working in magazines, I've learned that it's important to cater and work on inspiring your audience. And so, you know, whether it's a product page, a roundup a story or an Instagram post. Like, I'm always just trying to inspire my audience, and that's, you know, largely designers, and it's largely people like in, you know, working in the home furnishings, in the design industry. So, you know, having the freedom and the creativity to do that all for yourself, I think is a luxury and it's a privilege and it's exciting. And I think everyone working in the industry has it within them to find what works for them. I always Recommend Carving out 15 minutes when you're just sort of on the way somewhere. Like, I do some of my best posts on the subway, you know, so it's like just finding the moment to fit it into your routine is, to me, the best way to do that. If you're looking for a strategy and
- [60:35]
A
it seems as though you just. You seem to roll with things and just adjust to whatever is going on. And I guess. And with that, there seems to be a certain level of resil. Because you talk about being in magazines. If ever there was a challenging time to be in magazines. Right. It's now the media world in general, it just. Wow. It's a challenging time.
- [61:01]
D
Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything's upside down, everything's turned on its head, and it's only like 2 o' clock on Tuesday, you know, so, yeah, things are constantly moving and changing. And Dennis, you know, I've worked with, like, some tough editors. I've worked with some really talented people. And, you know, stories change and evolve. Like, one day you could be working on a story and the concept will change slightly, and all of a sudden you're pivoting and you're reshooting something or you're, you're, you know, you're. You just kind of have to, like. I'm used to, like, throwing things out as quickly as. As I'm bringing ideas to the table. So I think that has really helped me to kind of, you know, roll with the punches and sort of ride the wave, as it were.
- [61:56]
A
Yeah. Which is. Which is what you have to do these days is Right. Just ride the wave. So I'm excited for you and I'm excited for the book. It seems like the book is out right now. Yes. So don't delay. You can go on Amazon. You can order it. At this very moment, the Laird home. And I congratulate you on everything that you've been able to do. But now your first book. This is a huge achievement. So congratulations and thank you for making the time to talk to me about it, Ben.
- [62:25]
D
Thank you, Dennis. At the end of the day. A home should feel like you and not a formula. And that's the thread I want running through the book. And I really appreciate you inviting me to join you today.
- [62:44]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that
- [62:50]
B
might have caught our eye.
- [62:51]
A
Fred, what caught your eye?
- [62:52]
C
An article in the Wall Street Journal caught my eye this week. Dennis, your favorite paper. It is a great paper. It was a really interesting study that it came out recently saying that now when it comes to like leasing retail locations, places that do services now outnumber stores that sell stuff. So there's more spas, gyms, you know, fitness centers than there are, you know, shoe stores in America, which is kind of crazy for the first time ever, you know, since they've been tracking these numbers, which is really interesting. Did you read that one?
- [63:23]
A
I did. I said, saw that story. I forced the lovely Mrs. Gully to let me read it to her and share the whole thing with her. I think it's so fascinating and I think we're going to be talking about this whole wellness and spas and service thing in the design industry so much more because it's obviously just become such a huge part of the retail landscape and the high end service landscape as well.
- [63:47]
C
Yeah, I think it's, you know, we've talked about on the show before and how, how people want experiences and they'll spend more on that than they will on stuff. And I think that's kind of like received wisdom. But when you see a number like that, you're like, there's more of this than that. It really, you know, bring, brings it to clarity. And I think it's a great subject and one that everybody should be, should be thinking about a little bit. What caught your eye this week, Dennis?
- [64:08]
A
A couple of things caught my eye. One was we were talking about Williams Sonoma earlier and interestingly, Williams Sonoma has this giant, giant test kitchen where they test a lot of their, their products and all, and all of their cooking supplies. And they were feeling like the kitchen was in need of a little bit of a, of a new face. And so they called in no other great expert than Christopher Peacock, friend of the show and, and just one of the, one of the best in the biz. And so Christopher Peacock helped them design what looked like a pretty fantastic looking test kitchen. And kudos to them. But I was thrilled to see him get called in on that project and I wish them well with that. The other thing that caught my eye was there was a piece in this Sunday's New.