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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Sarah Sherman Samuel is doing it all. Plus: RH Milan opens its doors
00:52:14
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, designer Sarah Sherman Samuel joins the show to talk about her new book.
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- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Sarah Sherman Samuel about her new book. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including a check in on the housing market, RH's debut in Milan, and whether contemporary kitchens have gotten too slick to do all that. I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nikolaus. Fred hi, Dennis.
- [00:33]
B
How's it going?
- [00:34]
C
Great.
- [00:34]
A
How you doing?
- [00:35]
B
I'm doing good. And it's kind of a new day here on the Business of Home podcast. In a way. If you've been following businessofhome.com, you've probably seen the news that Boh, along with our sister publications Dwell and Domino Great Publications, were acquired last week by a company called Ziff Davis. A public service announcement. Ziff Davis is not a person. It's a media company and we're really excited to get started there. I've been told there may be a podcast studio at Ziff Davis hq. I kind of can't wait to check that out.
- [01:09]
A
I'm hoping new digs are in our future. Fred and I feel certain that they're going to take excellent care of what I assume they view as some of the stars of this new acquisition. Yes.
- [01:21]
B
Yes. Well, if my agent is involved, then I'm sure that was made clear to them. Anyway, let's look back on Monday's episode, A Conversation with Rodman Premack and Rudy Weissenberg, two very talented, interesting individuals who do a lot of different things. It was a good conversation that covered a lot of ground.
- [01:38]
A
Great conversation. A lot of energy with these two. But they're incredibly knowledgeable about a subject that we talk about a lot and I don't understand in great depth, which is this whole collectible design market. And of course, they have extensive knowledge about the art and design market. So it was really interesting to talk with them and also to hear from them about how eager they are to slow the process down for their clients and get their clients more interested in working with artists and artisans and personalizing things much more. What did you make of the conversation?
- [02:19]
B
I love the part about kind of getting clients to slow down. I also love the part where they talked about how they often sort of come back to their client's house and there's this initial period of the client sort of saying, is it okay if I move this face one inch to the left? And then being like, of course it's okay. We want you to do that. And it got into the sort of, you know, I think designers feel like they're, you know, they're performing their job, but clients are performing too, when they're in the midst of a design project and sort of conveying their own taste and sort of navigating the relationship. And so there were a lot of interesting little tidbits about that. It was a fun one.
- [02:52]
A
Yeah, it was a fun conversation. And there's a funny moment when I bring up the actual, the business side of things. And Rodman tries to excuse himself from the conversation at that moment because it's complicated and they've got a gallery and they've got a design firm and it's a complicated business to run. So designers out there who are, who are struggling day to day to manage the business side of their operations, you are clearly not alone. All right, we're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, a family run company known for thoughtfully designed rugs, pillows and wall art, and for building lasting partnerships across the trade for anyone sourcing product right now. Laloy just came out of High Point Market with a wide range of new collections, including the highly anticipated and honestly stunning Rain collection, plus the latest from Rifle Paper Company by Laloy Collaboration. Along with new pillows and wall art, the idea is to give customers more to work with on the design side while keeping everything else from ordering to support as straightforward as possible with dedicated sales reps, showrooms nationwide and an easy to use website. To learn more or to connect with a Sales rep, visit loloirugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com this podcast is sponsored by Resource Furniture this May during NYC by Design. Visit Resource Furniture at Afternoon Light Design Fair, New York's premier home and design show in Lower Manhattan. Resource is partnering with Human Scale Living to showcase how transformable wall beds and ergonomic home office solutions work together to create spaces designed for living well and beautifully. Experience firsthand how thoughtful multifunctional design allows your home to shift seamlessly between work, rest and everything in between. Visit Resource Furniture's booth at afternoon light May 16th through the 19th at 161 Water Street. And we're back. First up, Fred, we've got a real estate roundup.
- [05:20]
B
We do. Despite hopes of a warm weather rebound that was maybe predicted on this podcast, it's been a difficult first quarter for the housing market. The conflict in Iran has led many buyers to back away from deals, and foreclosures are nearing a six year High. Getting the podcast started off on an up note. Dennis, what do you make of the latest housing numbers?
- [05:40]
A
Yes, indeed, Fred. Wait, we were wrong about the weather. The warmer weather wasn't going to lift sales. I don't know what happened there.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, our producer Caroline Burke rounded up a bunch of interesting numbers, numbers sort of from the world of housing and existing home sales dropped 3.6 from February to March. Now I'm going to point out the weather was still a little rough in March, so the good weather isn't totally baked into these numbers. But maybe a really telling stat was the NAR lowered their projected growth to 4% from 14%. So it's like they started off the year on a relatively optimistic note. And terrible weather, this conflict in Iran, all kinds of uncertainty later. I think they're pulling back on the expectations for the year, but maybe this isn't as bad as it seems, he said tentatively. What's your read on these numbers?
- [06:32]
A
Well, I mean, listen, I think everybody was hoping that we were headed towards lower rates and for a heartbeat we were. And alas, the price of oil going up so much and other areas that are pointing to more inflation has just driven up the 10 year yield and therefore 30 year mortgage rates. And there's just a feeling out there that inflation is far from contained yet even the Federal Reserve Board wanting to change the language to not make it sound as if the next move is necessarily going to be a rate cut. So I think there's just a lot of going on out there suggesting it's not going to get easier anytime soon. That said, these numbers don't suggest that anything is falling off a cliff. They're just not suggesting that the turnaround that at least the hosts of this show were hoping for is coming anytime soon.
- [07:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's tough. You know, the foreclosures being in the six year high definitely sounds scary, but it is also just kind of a round trip to where they were before COVID You know, certainly it's not, you know, the number's not moving in the right direction, but it's maybe a little bit less scary than it sounds on first blush. An interesting sort of side effect of all of this is that you see these little kind of hot pockets popping up around the country where there are these markets where maybe historically people wouldn't have wanted to move there quite as aggressively. They might have preferred to go to a big coastal metropolis. But the Wall Street Journal has a story about how Louisville, Kentucky has seen 287 single family homes over a million dollars over the past year, which is crazy growth. So I do think it's not like the world is frozen right now. And you do see these little things pop up. It's just not, as you were saying, the survive to 26 and get your fix that we'd all been hoping for. And who knows? The year is young.
- [08:22]
A
No, absolutely. And much could change. And listen, shout out to Louisville. And as a bourbon drinker, I'm happy that the real estate market is hot there and it sounds like I need to check it out. I think what we, what we're seeing is this bouncing along the bottom notion is one that is definitely still going on in the housing market. To your point, there are pockets that are booming, but overall we're still waiting for the turn.
- [08:52]
B
Yeah. And I think in the meantime, leaning into renovation projects is a good watchword for designers. I'm sure no one needs me to tell them that, but certainly renovations are happening at an increased rate. There was a great episode of Kaitlyn Peterson's podcast Trade Tales that aired this week. Hema Prasad, who's an LA based designer, and she was just talking about how, like when, you know, when you got a slow market, you got to take different kinds of projects, some that are big and splashy for publication, some that just get checks in the door. You know, I'm sure some designers are having a great year. You know, if you're not, I think it's all about just, you know, mixing up the pipeline. And if you can move to Louisville, Kentucky, now's a good time. If you're always thinking about it, now's the time.
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A
Well, definitely renovation is something that we talk about a lot and certainly something that people want to be leaning into a lot more in this time. So I think that's good advice. Moving on, we're going to talk about home stocks. Wayfair and Ethan Allen both reported earnings last week amid a challenging environment for home brands. What should we get into first here, Fred?
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B
Let's start with Wayfair. So, you know, they had what I would say is a fairly typical to positive quarter amid a sort of difficult set of circumstances. When I say typical, they did lose money. They were not profitable.
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A
Which is this just in?
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B
Yes, which is fairly typical for Wayfair. But a lot of their numbers are going in mostly the right direction. Their gross margin, the amount of money that they made off the very tip top of revenue, declined a decent amount. If you listen to the earnings call, as we both did, there was a lot of questions about that and what's that pointing to? What's this pointing to? I think Neeraj Shah, the CEO of Wayfair's basic take was like, look, we all know this industry is in a bad place. Home hasn't been the same for a long time. Inflation is affecting customer demand, that we're basically doing fine and we're positioned to grow. And the numbers were basically okay. What was your read on the financials before we get into the other stuff, Dennis?
- [10:48]
A
I think my read on the financials, and I think Neeraj talks about this repeatedly, it's very clear that they're taking market share, they're an exceptionally good operator on a host of levels, and that's helping them to actually show a revenue increase in a time where it's pretty challenging. And I think that's because they're taking business from others and they're also benefiting from the many closures that we've talked about in the retail space. So I think they're the ones that look pretty strong getting through this time, even though profitability continues to elude them. I'm not sure that that is a huge focus for them, even though Wall street wishes it was more of a focus, I sense. But I don't think that that's is spending his time, candidly, and it seems
- [11:42]
B
like he is spending his time talking about stores. You were just in High Point Market the other week, and it seemed like there was a lot of word on the street that there was Wayfair. Maybe they've opened up two stores now or two big stores, and it seems like maybe more might be coming. What's your read on the future of Wayfair stores?
- [11:59]
A
Yeah, I think more stores are coming. I think he talked about stores on the earnings call much more than he normally does, I think. I think the High Point brands are looking to Wayfair in a surprisingly hopeful way. I think it wasn't too long ago where Wayfair tells the story of how they weren't even allowed into a High Point market and everybody thought that they were coming for their business. And now I think many in High Point are rooting for Wayfair's success, specifically Paragould, but also the site in general. And I think that the furniture makers need a strong retailer out there. And I think the Wayfair team who I bumped into several different times while I was at High Point, we're clearly taking meetings in part spreading the word that, yeah, the store openings are going pretty well and we're planning more of them.
- [12:54]
B
I know it's kind of Sad. Like we could honestly do every week on this show a segment about another mom and pop 75 year old furniture store that it's going out of business. Some of these are even small chains. There's clearly huge structural decline in the kind of classic independent mom and pop furniture store world. And sad as it is, Wayfair is definitely benefiting from their decline. And as you said, there's a lot of hopes being pinned on that. I also wanted to quickly talk about AI just because Neeraj Shah likes to talk about AI. And it's interesting, I always feel sort of of two minds when I hear these calls because on the one hand there's all this rhetoric kind of floating around, maybe not specifically from Wayfair, but just in general about, oh, it's going to transform everything and we can fire half our employees and run the business on ChatGPT and then you hear what they're actually using it for and it is smart. Right. Like he talked about how they're opening up in Canada and they want to open up in a French language market and so they use AI to translate their product descriptions. And that all seems smart. It just doesn't seem quite as revolutionary as like a robot is running our business for us. I don't know. I always feel a little bit conflicted when I hear about the AI implementation on these calls. What was your read on the AI stuff?
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A
I am certain this is a very tech savvy company.
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B
So I am 2,000 engineers.
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C
Yeah.
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A
I mean this is a company that was born out of tech stacks and this is an organization that is incredibly savvy. I think that they probably don't want to say too much right now because there is definitely this air of anxiety and uncertainty around the whole AI conversation. I think the efficiencies that they pointed to seem very modest to your point. But I'd be pretty surprised if AI wasn't playing a very meaningful role under the hood of the Wayfair organization. And I'm sure when the time is right, a lot more will be rolled out and discussed.
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B
Well, we'll talk about it when it comes. Let's pivot over to Ethan Allen. Again, difficult circumstances for them. They maybe didn't fare quite as well as Wayfair. Ethan Allen interestingly does business with the federal government a lot. They have a big contract with the State Department and because there was a government shutdown, their wholesale orders declined several times, 7.6%, they said, largely because of reduced government activity. Just when you think that everything has been thrown at these furniture Companies, the government shutdown affects them. So that was kind of a drag on their books. They do have money in the bank, they're debt free. In some ways. Ethan Allen is a much more financially stable company. But certainly the stock price is going in the wrong direction. And this was not a great, great quarter simply by the numbers. What would you make of the numbers before we get to the other stuff?
- [15:35]
A
Yeah, before we get into the fact that I don't expect a big AI announcement coming out of Ethan Allen anytime, anytime soon. Listen, I mean, you're right, the numbers, unfortunately, I think you continue to see the business is just not moving in the right direction on a host of levels. Yes, they have a bunch of money in cash. Yes, they don't have debt on their books. But you just get the feeling that this is just, just a company that continues to tread water at a time where companies like Wayfair are taking market share. But I think Ethan Allen continues to struggle with just the overall relevance question. And that's the biggest challenge that they have.
- [16:13]
B
I mean, they did talk about product a little bit on the earnings call. So clearly there's some new stuff coming from Ethan Allen. I'll be curious to see what it looks like. Technology has always been important to Farooq. I don't know if it's investing big in AI, but they, they care about that and they are doing things with their store footprint. It's funny, I feel like Ethan Allen is the company that everybody says they want. They're financially responsible, they're debt free, they're making money, but it just seems investors aren't that excited about it. And the stock is near a five year low. There's an irony in that. I don't know. Clearly, I'm sure they know they need to do something to turn that around. But it's just funny that it's happening to the one company that we talk
- [16:52]
A
about the debt free and that's paying out the big dividend and all of that. No, exactly. You know, truthfully, I think Wall street is hoping, first of all, as we talked about earlier, I think they would love to see some big collaboration announced or some big partnership that might help to move the product in a new direction. I think that would be a huge infusion. The other challenge is, truthfully, and everybody has so much regard and respect for Farooq Kathwari, the longtime CEO, and I certainly do as well. We've had him on the. And I'm a huge admirer, but I think everybody is waiting for the day. Much like what just happened at Berkshire Hathaway where they finally announced that there was a succession plan? Everyone keeps waiting for Ethan Allen to announce at least some kind of a succession plan that lets us know, hey, here's the strong number two that's been built up internally. And the company is gonna be passed on to strong hands in the future. Nothing to worry about. I think that is an overhang for the stock, and it has been for a while. And I. Until that issue gets resolved, the stock is just sort of in a bad place. Until there's just greater clarity. Does that make sense?
- [18:09]
B
Yeah. And when the federal government resolves itself and starts buying furniture again, that'll show up on their balance. I got my fingers crossed on that one.
- [18:17]
A
Yes, exactly. Well, who knew that the government was such a big customer for them? But I do hope that that works out. You know who the government's probably not buying a lot of furniture from is rh. But let's talk about rh, because the brand unveiled its new Milan outpost during Salone last week. And our own Fred Nicholaus was there for the party. So go ahead, tell me about it.
- [18:39]
B
I was there on the scene. Dennis, don't get too jealous. I know you've been to Paris, but I got to go to Milan. Yeah, it was, you know, it was a great party. Several people told me, like, Gary Friedman knows how to make an entrance to a new market. And that was definitely achieved. It was also like the talk of Milan Design Week. Like everywhere you went at these kind of hipster events, there's like, are you going to rh? You got an invitation to rh going to the party. And it was definitely a big sort of fabulous Gatsby esque party to open this sort of grand location they have in Milan. So, yes, I was on the scene. Did you see the pictures, Dennis? Did you?
- [19:17]
A
Did I see the pictures, Fred? Absolutely. I mean, first of all, I've already talked about Margot Robbie and how fantastic she looked. But I mean, the whole affair, as you say, you and I have been together to several RH openings and we know what a good party there is to be had. So I'm thrilled that you got to experience another opening. And this is a big one for a lot of reasons and we should get into that.
- [19:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, we're at this point, three years into RH's expansion into Europe. You and I were on hand to see the first location in the Cotswolds in England. And since then they've opened up a couple of other locations, notably Paris in The fall of last year, that was a big one. And I think that their European strategy is sort of anchored around these. It's Paris, Milan and London are their big flagship galleries and I think are going to be the real drivers of what RH is trying to do in Europe. It was interesting being at the Milan gallery. They execute incredibly well. It's this 19th century palazzo that they've converted into a gallery. It's got a wonderful restaurant, it's a great location. The question is just like, will European audiences go for it? Will they get the brand halo they're hoping to get? And you walk away from these events thinking like, wow, they created a lot of buzz, but there's just still this unanswered question of how is it going to perform over time. And I don't want to be as boring as we'll see, but that's kind of where we're at.
- [20:47]
A
Well, to your point, they create a lot of buzz. They're a marketing machine, despite not being on Instagram. And listen, they know how to get people to show up and they know how to get people talking about it. And if their goal was merely to have a furniture store in Milan, you could be skeptical. But I don't in any way think that it is as simple or as limited as that. And so I think that to your point, to me, and once Mayfair opens in a few weeks or a few months, the final piece of all that will be in place. But I think that in Gary Friedman's mind, this is now we have the foundation of the LVMH model of Milan and Paris and London. And on that, we can build our hospitality business, we can build our hotel partnership business, we can participate with partners in the Middle east in ways that we haven't imagined before. I just think his whole global strategy is much more than how many sofas are we going to sell next week in Milan.
- [22:02]
B
I do love the idea of we're going to open a furniture store in Milan. It's definitely something that Gary Friedman has never said. Yeah, the ambition is incredibly grand. Right. And so it feels a little bit silly to judge it or even measure it by the metrics of how you might measure the metrics of a furniture store in Milan. I mean, of course I think they do want to sell furniture in Italy. And, you know, that's the big open question is, will Italian audiences go for it? It's kind of delightful, honestly, to sort of see like another country react to RH because, you know, when you're in the industry in the US it's really kind of baked in, like, yes, they, you know, they open these furniture stores and there's celebrities there and it's like crazy party. But when, you know, people, you know, locals were there and, you know, kind of delighted by. There was this famous DJ there and it was, you know, it was fun just to sort of get their impressions. I mean, some people are skeptical, some people thought it was pretty cool. So we'll see. But as you pointed out, I think the ambition is much grander here. The other thing is this is coming at a difficult time from the perspective of the stock market. Their stock, too, is not doing particularly well. I think that the game here for Gary Friedman is just build up this incredible base in Europe. Build up the glamour. They've proven that they can execute at a really high level. They've proven that they can get European audiences through the door and get a lot of buzz going. I'm really interested to talk about this after the next earnings report. Not to be a nerd, but that's exciting to me. And we'll definitely check in soon.
- [23:26]
A
Absolutely. And I think they're hoping that estates and this whole Milan opening does a great deal to elevate the opportunities that I think they have in Greenwich, Connecticut, for example, which is a big focus for them with the estates collection. And so I think the hope is that it will start to ring the register much more aggressively in the U.S. we'll see. But in the meantime, we've got to move on and talk about a hot take from the world of interiors. Fred?
- [23:53]
B
Yes. I love these. These sort of, like, fun, high end, hot takes from the world of interiors. They're really fun to look at. In a recent piece for the magazine, Ben Benton argued that sometimes an ultra modern kitchen can stop home cooks from actually using their space. Dennis, is your kitchen ultra modern and do you actually use it? What's your reaction to this?
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A
You know, part of the reason that I bought my house is because of the kitchen. And the previous owners loved the kitchen so much, they left me a note saying, if you ever tire of it, we will come and take this kitchen out for you. Because we loved it so much. And so, no, it's not ultra modern and it's super functional. And I think looking at the picture in this world of interiors, looking at the kitchen, all stainless steel and modern, first of all, I was concerned that, wait, I thought we were busy copying the warmth of English kitchens.
- [24:44]
B
I know, yeah.
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A
And are they all doing stainless steel kitchens now? Have I been misinformed about what the Trends are. What do we make of that, Fred?
- [24:52]
B
I know that was the confusing thing, too, because I think of us, yeah, as in the process of an act of grand larceny, of stealing English kitchens from them. And here they are with the exact opposite take. I mean, I think, you know, two things can be true at once. Like, I do think the sort of English somewhat, you know, eclectic kitchen is kind of on the rise right now in American design. But I do think there has been this big movement towards these sort of sleek kitchens that are driven by appliances that can do all kinds of crazy stuff. I feel like every time I go to a show house, you see a stovetop that has a wok attachment and a spit roast on it and can sous vide everything. And I think a lot of it is driven, as Ben pointed out in the piece, by this sort of fascination with chef culture, like the bear and all these shows about cooking. And chefs are celebrities, and I think so people, you know, want their kitchens to kind of be like the fantasy of what a restaurant kitchen is like. And I think that's sort of what's driving the thing that he's. That he's saying is maybe not to the good, but I don't know. I'm a little bit torn about this. What's your take on his take?
- [25:58]
A
Well, I mean, I thought it was interesting that suddenly it felt a little too efficient and a little. I mean, I remember the whole stainless steel movement was quite big here in the. In the States, and then we sort of moved away from that. But this seemed to also suggest that these kitchens that were modeled after Top Chef, like, shows, suddenly got sort of so professional that you seem to feel overwhelmed and that you weren't spending as much time cooking and preparing. Perhaps the room had lost some of its fun, some of its spirit.
- [26:34]
B
I don't know. You know, like I was saying, I feel a little bit split on this. I do think it's kind of a shame. I think this is a problem interior designers encounter a lot, which is that the client sort of says they want something, but it's not clear if they're just saying they want it because they think they're supposed to want it or whether they're actually going to use it. I don't know. I think this is all kind of harmless, truly. I think if a client really does want a super sleek stainless steel kitchen, like, more power to them, and, you know, the appliance companies need to make money, too. But it's a fun little take and something just to kick around. When you're looking at your next kitchen, I'm certainly going to look at mine after we hop off this podcast and see if I can squeeze in some stainless steel in there.
- [27:12]
A
Well, I'm still very much on the Sophie Donaldson Unkitchen team, and so I like seeing more of that, but this was a fun read and thanks to Ben Benton for that. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including Sean Lowe's advice on keeping employees engaged and the latest industry hire. But first, a quick break. As hybrid work redefines how we live, the home office has become essential this May during NYC by Design Resource Furniture is partnering with Human Scale Living at Afternoon Light Design Fair to demonstrate how intentional functional design improves everyday living. Their shared booth showcases transformable furniture paired with ergonomic solutions, proving that spaces can work as hard as they look beautiful. See how these two leaders in sustainable multifunctional design help create homes that adapt to how people actually live and work. Visit afternoon light May 16th through the 19th at 161 Water Street. If you're in the middle of sourcing, Laloy's latest introductions are now available online. That includes the new Rain Collection, many other new collections from the brand, and the newest designs from Rifle Paper Company by Laloy. You can explore it all, connect with a sales rep, or find the showroom nearest you@leloyrugs.com. And we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer Sarah Sherman Samuel. Sarah, welcome back to the show.
- [29:00]
C
Thanks for having me.
- [29:02]
A
It's great to have you and we've got so much to talk about. You've got a new book coming out which I'm eager to discuss. You're all over the pages of Architectural Digest these days, and I feel quite a bit has happened for you in the last few years since we last had you on the show. Is it me or have you suddenly been catapulted into design stardom? You're on the AD100 list, right? I mean, tell me how it's all feeling for you, Sarah.
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C
Well, I guess it does not feel suddenly for me.
- [29:36]
A
Sarah feels she's been working quite hard on this for many years.
- [29:40]
C
I've been working for a very long time.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah. I mean, for you, of course, it feels like it's not so for you, you've been working towards all of this. But it is fun for me to see you get this kind of recognition and I wonder how it's feeling for you.
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C
Oh yeah, I mean, it feels really good to have the recognition. The book and doing a lot of things at the same time isn't always the smartest. I'm stretched a little bit thin.
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A
Well, so was this all by choice? Because, I mean, as you say, the book is coming out and I know that a book tour will follow, so you'll prob probably on the road a great deal. And talking about that, you've also got this huge collection with Lulu and Georgia, which I want to talk to you about. And then, I mean, you've got the gallery opening. So much to get into. So did you not mean to time all of this quite so closely together?
- [30:35]
C
Exactly.
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A
Yeah.
- [30:36]
C
No, none of it meant to happen all at the same time. And at one point we were like, okay, we'll do the gallery opening at the same time as the book launch. Cause that's how the schedule was kind of of happening. But then our permits got stuck with the city for a while. So actually we're behind on construction in the gallery. And I'm like, oh, actually, thank God. That was a lot to do.
- [30:59]
A
So that that came as, oh, what, you're not going to let us build anymore? Great, great.
- [31:04]
C
Give me two and a half. Also. It's like two and a half extra months, so it's still back to back, but at least it's not trying to fit everything at the exact same time. Because then also I have a solo show at Colony during Design Week in May, which is right in the middle of getting ready for that with new pieces. And that's also part of the book tour, too.
- [31:26]
A
Let's talk about the book, and then we'll discuss the gallery and what's coming up for you at Colony. Tell me the idea. So the book, the intersection of art and design. Tell me the idea behind it and why now. And here comes your first big book, right?
- [31:43]
C
Yeah. Well, I guess over the years, I've been kind of approached from different agents or publishers wanting to do a book. And it never. I never had, like, the concept or idea because I work in so many different facets of design. And I feel like where the magic happens is when all those different medium that I work in come together to make one thing. So the overlap of art and design and architecture and. And all that coming in into, you know, a final project or final furniture piece, that is what the book's about. And I feel like it's not the typical interiors monograph because it's not just the projects, but I have it set up into very distinct sections where I think there's six or seven residential projects. But then. And there's first between those sections are like a section on just furniture that I've designed. And then there's a section on just textiles. And then that is a section on art. So that I feel like these days, the way also we consume content so quickly, you look at an image, it's like, oh, room designed by Sarah Silver. Sand book. Right. Like, so I designed the room and the finishes and the fixtures.
- [33:01]
A
And Sarah's like, well, wait a sec. I didn't just design the room. Yeah, give me a break.
- [33:05]
C
I love.
- [33:06]
A
Could you slow down? That chair is mine. The art is mine. Like, slow your roll as you're doom. Scrolling through my images so quickly.
- [33:16]
C
I just want everybody to slow the F down.
- [33:20]
A
Yes, There you go. You gotta be able to consume it all. But let's talk all joking aside, you reference the fact that you work in so many different medium. And you come at design in part through a lens of being an artist, a furniture maker, a craftsperson, really. And I wonder how that process works for you and what the steps and stages are as you come to see it.
- [33:53]
C
I guess it's all surprise since I'm not a planner. Happened very organically.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah.
- [34:00]
C
And I'm not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg. And it's also different for each project. Like some furniture that I've designed, I've designed like for a project specifically, and then it has become part of the line. But then also like the show house that we did, I was designing that entire house. Cause that was a new build around some of the furniture that was in my collection already. So, like even portioning the rooms around a certain dining table and tell us
- [34:32]
A
what that show house was. Remind people what the show house was and how you pulled all that together.
- [34:37]
C
Right? Yeah. So that it's in the book as well. But we. It was a piece of property that was right by the house that we currently live in that was owned by a builder. And it literally our backyard. So we were like, well, we don't want somebody building right behind us. And like, we moved to the trees for a reason. We moved to the woods, the forest, for the reef for a reason. We don't want a house right behind us this. But in order to purchase the property, we had to build a house with this builder. So we did that, started that project, got it half finished where we could get occupancy, and then took over the build ourselves. And it was basically a way for me to, you know, try out designing a House from the ground up for ourselves with no, you know, when you don't have a client at obviously less pressure. But also it's like, oh, then you don't have as many constraints either. So it was almost like a case study house.
- [35:38]
A
But you were able to design it in such a way that you could anticipate the furniture from your collection that you knew you wanted to use.
- [35:47]
C
Right, exactly. And that was my first furniture collection and it was so being produced. So I had already had it designed. So I had all the. The measurements and things. So it was. A lot of the things were designed around that collection or the rooms and spaces.
- [36:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. And the furniture collection. You were doing some of your own furniture and then you had the Lulu in Georgia collection. And first of all, I wonder how all of that is going and what direction that is pulling you in.
- [36:16]
C
Yeah, right now I finally. I finally have a breath, but then they're going to hit me with the 2028 list of stuff pretty soon and then I won't have another breath. But it's going great. Like I. Lulu in Georgia has been the best. And it just keeps. We just keep growing and doing different categories. We just launched bedding and bath, so we're doing like bathroom vanities and towels and like bathroom accessories. But then we also just launched three beds and so bedroom furniture, bedding, curtains, all those stuff.
- [36:50]
A
And do you enjoy that process of applying your design skills and your artistry to all these different categories and seeing where it takes you?
- [37:00]
C
Yes, that's probably. I feel like maybe my favorite part of what I do, I think is just in the creation, because it really feels like creation when it's also. Then with Lulu and Georgia, I get to hand it off to them and they deal with the manufacturer.
- [37:15]
A
You go make it.
- [37:16]
C
Here you go. Which is so much easier because they're planning the whole thing. I don't have to plan it. There's no, no scheduling involved. Someone else.
- [37:24]
A
Someone else is arranging all of that for you so you can show up.
- [37:28]
C
Yeah, that's my in house production or my in house furniture line is trickier because that is me planning. So that's why we don't have a set production schedule.
- [37:38]
A
Well, and that's what I wondered. And even how you're thinking about your own furniture and what you're doing there and how you. And how you want to show that and preserve, present it.
- [37:48]
C
Yeah. We definitely want to differentiate a bit from the Ruin Georgia ride. So it is different, but it's also all produced here locally. Moving back to The Midwest from LA really made me. You know, I wanted to build something that also supports this local community because it is a much smaller city. And it's used to be furniture city, usa. It was a global center of furniture for the. For a while, whatever. Early 1900s, 1800s. Even with everything, all the manufacturing here, I think at one point it was like 60% of the population worked in the furniture industry. So. And it's not. Not that anymore. I mean, there's still big. Now it's moved to office furniture. And the Hayworth and Herman Miller and Steelcase are all still based here. But bringing back the residential. Where it started. Where the Dutch. It started with the Dutch that came over in woodworking.
- [38:51]
A
Tell us the history of America, Sarah.
- [38:53]
B
Do you have time?
- [38:53]
C
Do you have the history of Grandma?
- [38:55]
A
They came over. They came over on these big boats.
- [38:58]
C
They settled Michigan.
- [39:00]
A
The Dutch had quite a bit of money they had made from the tulips that they had sold years, years earlier. And boy, did they love furniture.
- [39:08]
B
So they did.
- [39:09]
C
They made some good furniture.
- [39:11]
A
Yes.
- [39:11]
C
But anyway, way. Also I'm learning with my own furniture line that we've already down to furniture manufacturers since I've been making furniture. Like they're closing and then. Is that right?
- [39:24]
A
They're closing and then they. Because there's just not enough production demand for them.
- [39:28]
C
I don't know that well. Actually, one didn't close. They got purchased. And so it was then they're like, we can't make anything or we can't even take an order for six months. And then it would be 20 weeks after that. And I'm like, well, I can't. I can't. I can't function like that. So we had to find another one. So that was hard to see as a, you know, is in our backyard. And I. So I feel like I'm very passionate about trying to get the craftsmanship, keeping the furniture world alive locally here.
- [39:58]
A
Yeah. And to preserve. To preserve that production and those. And those skills and those talents. Because if it doesn't get passed along, all of that will be. Be gone.
- [40:08]
C
Yeah. I visited Haworth the other day, and they were saying how. Because they own casino now and like they've been bringing the Italian woodworkers here to teach because it doesn't exist. Yeah, it doesn't exist much here anymore.
- [40:23]
A
Oh, well, that's wonderful that they're making that investment, though, to bring them over. Oh, that's good to hear. Well, so I love that you're trying to support the local craftspeople with your own Furniture. And is that part of what you're going to be showing at NYC by Design?
- [40:36]
C
Yeah, yeah. Bit of art and then new furniture pieces from my own collection.
- [40:42]
A
And that'll be a colony.
- [40:43]
C
Yes.
- [40:44]
A
And what's your impression of what NYC by Design is all about? I'm just never sure I fully understand it all. So I wondered if you.
- [40:55]
C
You wonder? Oh, you think? I know.
- [40:56]
A
I thought if anyone would have their finger on the pulse of what NY super design is, surely it's you. You're actually participating in it. I am participating, yeah.
- [41:07]
C
But I don't know, I feel like it's similar to Legends in la, where it isn't. I mean, it's much more than just an excuse for all the design and art people to get together and have parties, but it really is also a time for designers and artists, coincidentally, they
- [41:21]
A
all come together and have parties. There you go.
- [41:24]
C
But there is a lot of, like, show the group. I like the group shows that go on where it's like, you know, different galleries often have like a singular brief or whatever that they give to their artists and makers and designers, and then they'll have a show like that. Which colony usually does that. But this year I'm doing a solo show, so that's different.
- [41:46]
A
I'm curious, though, and I'm only sort of half joking because I often talk to designers this moment when one becomes added to the AD100 list and one is published on the pages of AD with a big celebrity project. And we'll talk about the Mandy Moore project, because there's a lot that went into that. But I wonder, does it change for you, more people reaching out to potentially work with you? Do you find it helped to put you on more people's radar? Do more people want to collaborate? What has the response or the change been like for you?
- [42:29]
C
Well, I do feel like, because my first project with Mandy was on the COVID of ad, and so I do think that that, like, you start getting more inquiries for that. So it is. I feel like all different things build and things. It builds and builds. But I feel like when you're in print, it takes. It's not like an instant, like, oh, you get a ton of inquiries. I don't know. Interiors is such a slow game that I feel like it's also more of a slow burn. It's not like a flash in the pan type situation. When you get pressed, you instantly like, boom, I'm here and here and here. Like, I get lots of people, right?
- [43:06]
A
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:07]
C
But also, as you know, if you remember, I'm trying to keep as small as possible.
- [43:11]
A
Well, exactly. That's the thing. And so I know that you're not eager to take on more clients, right?
- [43:16]
C
Yeah, yeah. No, we're even like okay with the book tour and the opening the gallery and all that. That's like a big. Another venture.
- [43:24]
A
So let's talk about the gallery and let's help people understand what the gallery is. I know. I mean, I see some photographs of construction underway, but it sounds like it was delayed a little bit. But what's it ultimately going to be?
- [43:39]
C
So we found this building that had a storefront and we were like, wouldn't it be amazing to have, even for ourselves, a beautiful gallery space? That's very inspiring to us. That we won't mess up.
- [43:56]
A
Yeah.
- [43:56]
C
That we won't have shipping and receiving and blah, blah, blah. And then it's forward facing. And then also to be part of a community where we can have people come and have events and have art shows and bring other artists in and, and really be a part of the community there.
- [44:13]
A
In thinking about how you want to be perceived in all of this, because it's clearly important for you to lean into the artist and the creator as much as the interior decorator and designer. It's one of the things that is so exciting for you and you tell me, but I mean that you're able to go in so many different directions and, and design furniture which clearly you love. And I'm curious. We were talking recently about this rise in demand and I hope attention to children's furniture in particular. And you've designed and created a lot of fun children's furniture and fun children's spaces. Listeners don't know, but Sarah's actually in one of them now in that she's in her son's room which has this fabulous bunk bed with curtain thing going on. And I'm curious, do you agree that it's this golden age for children's furniture and that clients are paying much more attention? I know Mandy Moore had quite a bit of fun children's rooms in that project. Yeah.
- [45:23]
C
And I do love designing furniture for kids and the rooms, children's rooms. I think it's such a fun way to get, get so much whimsy into his space. But yeah, I do feel like clients have been investing more in their kids rooms. I mean, built in bunk beds are not cheap. Our project in the Hamptons, that one, we have two sets of full sized bunk beds in a, in a bunk room. And that's like one of my favorite rooms that's going to be in that house. It is really fun. And yeah, Mandy's. We also just to finish the built in bunk beds in their boys room just before the AD feature.
- [46:04]
A
Before we go, let's talk quickly about the Mandy Moore project. Just because it was one of those. So the home was in Altadena. Is in Altadena and caught up sadly in the terrible fires there. Though much of the house survived the fires, all of the interiors had to come out and everything had to be cleared out because. Because of course the smoke damage and all of that. So a very emotional rebuilding. You had photographed the house thankfully before so that you could recreate. But tell me about that process.
- [46:39]
C
So we photographed the main house and then we were actually due to photograph the ADU guest house the weekend that the fires broke out. So it was like. Like it was one day away from me flying out to photograph that. I think Mandy and Taylor were displaced for nine months.
- [46:57]
A
Right.
- [46:58]
C
And they lost the full studio and the full guest house. And then like you said, everything had to come out of the main house. So we were refurnishing all that. And then they just are finishing building the guest house now. But so the. We did shoot it pre fire and that's what's in the book look. And then for the AD feature we reshot it so that they could have portraits and everything because we did change some things. Mandy was like, I'm fine if you want to do everything. Exactly.
- [47:27]
A
Recreate it. I loved it all the first.
- [47:31]
C
I mean a lot of the pieces were vintage so we couldn't recreate everything. But the case goods were okay because those were cleanable. So it was all the soft goods we had to. Had to completely get rid of. Rid of. But so rugs, we did change up some of the rugs and fabrics and. And replace the vintage ones with either similar or. I mean some of the things we did quite different just for. So it's fun for us too and fun for her to have something a little special that feels. I mean they weren't in it very long, so it all would have felt special. But you know, something to come back to that feels a bit little special to them.
- [48:09]
A
Yeah. Well, it was great to get to see it in the March issue of AD and I'm so glad that they were able to rebuild and get back in there. It's a long, slow process, all of that rebuild for so many people. So it was wonderful to see them getting back in and I hope it leads to more and more of People getting their homes back and rebuilding that community in such an important way. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that you are trying to find a balance, and I know it's not easy, and I know you're getting pulled into a lot of different things. I'm thrilled, as I say, for all of the good things happening for you, and I'm eager to get a copy of the book and to see it in person. It looks quite beautiful from what I've seen. April 28, that book is coming out, Intersection of Art and Design. Sarah Sherman, Samuel, thank you so much for talking with me.
- [49:05]
C
Thank you so much, much.
- [49:10]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [49:18]
B
Claude caught my eye this week. Tennis. Claude, of course, is the AI chatbot made by the company Anthropic, which has been in a spot of bother with the U.S. government recently. But that hasn't stopped them from launching a tool that integrated, integrates Claude with a number of, you know, kind of creative software platforms, including this is relevant for Designers, Sketchup and several Adobe products as well. And I've been seeing sort of some of the AI influencer, AI design influencers I follow on Instagram sort of post about this being a really big deal, you know, because understandably, if you can create a Sketchup, you know, document in Claude and just import it into your environment there, I don't know that it's a game changer. I, I think people will still do their work from scratch, but it's certainly interesting and it sort of shows how AI is getting integrated into every part of the design workflow. So I'm really interested to hear if people are trying this, if they find it useful, if it's overblown, and I think there's just gonna be more, more of stuff like that. What caught your eye this week?
- [50:16]
C
Dennis?
- [50:16]
A
A couple things caught my eye. One, I had the pleasure over the weekend of attending the Ticking Tent, which, which was a packed house. And another successful event for our friends Christina Juarez and Ben Reynard. I wanted to congratulate them on. On another great event. Frankly, I don't know how they did it. I believe they were both in Milan with you. They were, yes. And yet. And Ben even went to High Point after that. So how he came back and put on the show he did. I'm really, I'm not convinced he's human, Fred. That's really my concern concern in the whole thing. Another great event which I attended last night, which is absolutely one of my favorites every year, was the Design On a Dime event benefiting Housing Works. And it's, it's always a great lineup of designers who just put together these incredible rooms that are fully for sale. And, and the madness when the bell rings at six o' clock as everyone tries to, to grab items from their, from their stands. It had a tremendous turnout and Yellow House Architects had a great space and we bumped into our friend Jason Saft, who had a great space. Alexa Hampton had a wonderful space. Everett Brown of Everground Design did a great floor with artistic tile. There were just, there were so many memorable spaces and, and just a huge array of designers were there to support it. And congratulations to everyone who put that together. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.