← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Schumacher's CEO weighs in on the state of the industry. Plus: Kim Kardashian settles her knockoff lawsuit
01:03:52
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Schumacher CEO Timur Yumusaklar joins the show to discuss his company's latest moves—and what's going on in the design industry.
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- [00:07]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to Schumacher CEO Timur Yumasaklar about his company's acquisition of Tillet Textiles. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including an update on the Kim Kardashian knockoff lawsuit, why Fornisetti is changing hands, and the fate of hgtv. To do all that, I'm joined business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
Fred Nicholas
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:37]
Dennis Scully
Oh, just great.
- [00:40]
Fred Nicholas
98 degrees in the podcast studio. Yeah, I know it was cruel to be ripped out of Copenhagen's loving arm.
- [00:49]
Dennis Scully
I'm so sorry, Fred.
- [00:51]
Fred Nicholas
Yes, very reluctantly back here in New York and I've been welcomed by beastly heat. It is brutal in New York. I'm sorry if you're here in the city with us, but hopefully we'll get through it and get some co by the time this podcast drops. How have you been? Fun show with Caitlin. Although I managed to sneak into the podcast nonetheless.
- [01:10]
Dennis Scully
I know you couldn't stay away. It's like, let's talk to Fred in Copenhagen. I had a great time with Caitlin and we actually got into some really fun conversations. So I really enjoyed that show and I think I'll be doing more of that soon. But more on that later.
- [01:23]
Fred Nicholas
Exactly. Stay tuned. But in the meantime, let's look back on Monday's episode. A conversation with British interior designer Nicola Harding and her husband Andy. They have a lot of interesting business endeavors together. Fun conversation that you did in London.
- [01:37]
Dennis Scully
Not only did I do it in London, Fred, but funny story, actually recorded that show in my room at the Hamyard Hotel. And, and what was funny about the particular moment in time is just outside the window, the tent was being built for the wedding reception of Kit Kemp's lovely daughter, Willow. That was happening just a day or two later. And so we had to rearrange the room's furniture to get away from the window and all of the tent construct noise. And if ever I've been nervous about changing furniture around in a room, it's certainly in a Kit Camp hotel room. So I tried to put it all perfectly back when we were done, but I was nervous the whole time. Anyway, I lured Nicola Harding and her husband Andy up to the room to talk about the many facets of Nicola Harda's design business, which Andy has joined not too long ago, and also talking about their. Their home business, Nyx, and it's coming to America. So the online business will soon Be ready for American fans to order some of their lovely furniture and own a piece of Nicola Harding's design business.
- [02:52]
Fred Nicholas
That was very good scene setting there with the Kit Kemp wedding in the back. I agree. Moving furniture in a Kit Kemp hotel room is grounds for something, deportation. I don't know. I don't know what they did. Yeah, it was a really good conversation. I loved hearing your take on all the various facets of their business. And really interesting. Interesting to hear how kind of both, like, the residential side of her business feeds into the commercial side, how she gets better deals through working on these hotel chains. She gets ideas for the brand working on projects. It's like interesting conversation about having three different lines of business can really feed into each other in a cool way that I've seen with a lot of designers. I also just love the fact that before getting into interior design, she studied to be. Well, she studied theology, and then she was considering being a pilot in the military, which I think is maybe the first particular instance of that career background. So, I don't know, just a fun, fun conversation with lots of little fun moments in it. Definitely one to check out.
- [03:44]
Dennis Scully
Well, and interesting that so much of her own feelings about home and wanting to create the feeling of home were born out of her father being a helicopter pilot and moving around quite a bit. So it all tied together nicely. And I love the thought of her at least studying to become a pilot. She confessed that she didn't think she was a great pilot, but she sure did look nice in that uniform, she said.
- [04:06]
Fred Nicholas
Wasn't there a bit about how, like, one of her clients was a pilot and they did a loop to loop over the house after? It was. I was like, that would terrify me, frankly. But that's, you know, the next level of client designer trust, I guess.
- [04:18]
Dennis Scully
Indeed. Indeed. All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. This spring, Laloi launched a new collaboration with beloved interior designer Jeremiah Brent, featuring rugs and pillows with rich textures, bold lines, and deep tones. Each collection is designed with a visionary outlook that encourages everyone to carve their own path. See them all@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow along on Instagram and TikTok at laloirugs. And we're back. Fred, you know it's going to be a good show when we kick it off.
- [05:14]
Fred Nicholas
With Kim Kardashian, the most important thing happening in the world right now, more than a year after Donald Judd's estate sued Kardashian and her design firm Clemens Design, for referring to lookalike pieces as, quote, unquote, Donald Judd tables in a promotional video. Everyone has settled this lawsuit, and I have to start off by apologizing. I promised listeners that I would be covering every day of this lawsuit, but at some point, I kind of lost the thread. And this. This actually happened earlier in June. So this is a mea culpa for me.
- [05:46]
Dennis Scully
Well, I couldn't tell if tariffs knocked us off course or what it was. This was a story we were covering religiously, and then suddenly we lost it for a little while. So much so, Fred, that we should probably go back and refresh people's memories about what this whole lawsuit is about.
- [06:03]
Fred Nicholas
Let me take you back to 2022, Dennis. When Kim Kardashian was giving a tour of her company's headquarters, skims in la, and among many designy p that she pointed out. She pointed out these two tables instead of chairs that she sort of referred to as. I think I said as Donald Judd tables. Well, it turned out they were actually not real Donald Judd tables. And the Donald Judd foundation sort of caught wind of this and started communicating with Kardashian, and as we talked about her designers, Clements, an LA firm. And at first they were trying to wrangle some sort of deal, but it got heated and everybody went to court, and it turned into a case that was covered by both dezeen and Us Weekly. So it was kind of a fun little crossover of worlds. But it was interesting because at the time, we talked to a lot of experts, and a lot of people thought that the Judd Foundation's case was very weak because it's hard to persecute knockoffs. And had Kim Kardashian really done anything wrong simply by misidentifying the tables casually in a video? So the perception was this case was weak, but this outcome seems to suggest that actually they had a bit of a case to bring to the table.
- [07:13]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. I think this is a somewhat surprising outcome to many. And there were accusations at the time that the Judd foundation was just trying to get some publicity, and really this was a nuisance lawsuit and that it would go away quickly, but it didn't at all. And I wonder if you think that that is a little bit of a shot in the arm for people who are thinking about trying to pursue these kinds of lawsuits.
- [07:41]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, I mean, I do think it is. Let's take a moment just to explain. So, obviously, they're not settling because everybody made nice. They're settling because as this case worked its way through the court, Kardashian and Clemens Design kept trying to get it thrown out. I was kind of perusing the docket rather a bit this morning, and they kept trying to get it thrown out on a variety of grounds. As we say, it's hard to prove a knockoff. It's hard to prove that Kardashian actually did any harm by misidentifying this table.
- [08:08]
Timur Yumasaklar
And.
- [08:09]
Fred Nicholas
And I think the lawyers for both Clements and Kardashian were pretty confident that they could get it thrown out. But as it turned out, the judge kept ruling in favor of the Judd foundation, and earlier this year, it was clear that the case was not just going to get thrown out of court and was headed towards a trial. And I imagine that probably Clements and Kim Kardashian looked at the money they'd spent on lawyers and imagined all kinds of random stuff getting discovered. And I assume they very much did not want that. And so I think they probably looked at the situation and realized, we can make this go away. They released a statement, and I don't know, it was reading between the lines. It seemed sort of like the outcome of this was that Kim Kardashian ended up buying an authentic Donald Judd table, or two of them. I think they cost $90,000. Was that your read on it as well? It was a little bit. Wasn't stated so clearly. But that was my takeaway from the statement as well.
- [08:57]
Dennis Scully
I agree. I mean, as I went through all of the documents, it seemed as if. It was almost as if the judge sort of said, now, the two of you play nice, and why don't you get some actual Donald Judd furniture, as uncomfortable as it appears to be, and buy the originals? And that seems like what they did.
- [09:16]
Fred Nicholas
In the original lawsuit, wasn't it? The Judd foundation wanted them to destroy the copies. I wonder if they had to sort of ceremonially burn them, or if maybe they're in a warehouse somewhere and they'll become a collector's item someday. But, yeah, I mean, clearly the Judd foundation, on some level, kind of won this, even though they didn't actually go to trial and win. So that does make me wonder, are we going to see more lawsuits like this? This was a very specific case. Not everyone has an office they make promotional videos about, and not everyone. I think it's particular to the fact that it was Kim Kardashian and Also that it was Donald Judd who was getting knocked off. But if people can go to court and doggedly pursue this issue, it makes me wonder whether the dupe purveyors of the world have another thing to worry about.
- [10:00]
Dennis Scully
Well, I was wondering, as I was saying earlier, I mean, is this encouraging for people who want to pursue a lawsuit after. After feeling like they've been copied? I was wondering if the. If the Kim Kardashian moment was sort of this peak dupe level and that we had. We had just talked about it so much. It was such a red hot topic for us for a while. And then I felt, even with New York Design Week recently and icff, I didn't feel like the dupe issue came up as much. Maybe this brings it back.
- [10:37]
Fred Nicholas
I don't know. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, the dupe thing is so complicated, Right? You know, on the surface, it seems like a very simple moral issue, like, don't copy other people's work. But then you get into, like, what counts as inspiration, what really counts as a knockoff. Also, every designer listening to this will be familiar with the situation of a client wants the real thing but doesn't want to pay for it. And, you know, designers are sometimes kind of boxed into producing something that's kind of like a dupe. And, you know, do designers really want to be sued for that? I don't think so. So, you know, I'm going to count this as a victory for original design. But this is, you know, dupes remain a complicated issue. I suspect this is a bit of a one off. Not every one of these dupe situations is as glamorous, fun, or wacky as this one.
- [11:21]
Dennis Scully
I agree this seems like a very exceptional case and an exceptional outcome, but I'll have to reach out to our friends at Be Original America and see if they're opening champagne bottles.
- [11:32]
Fred Nicholas
I'm sure they are. Yeah.
- [11:34]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. More to come on that. In the meantime, up next, we're gonna talk about Fornisetti. A private equity firm, Oakley Capital, has purchased a 60% stake in the Italian design house Fornacetti, a move that transfers majority ownership away from the son of the company's founder, Fred. This was an interesting one.
- [11:51]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah. It's been a while since we've talked about private equity. I feel like it's another hot topic that we've stepped away from. I feel like it's in the media a lot recently. I feel like there was a big book that came out just A few weeks ago about private equity. And I recently learned that private equity owns both Cirque du Soleil and the Blue Man Group. Were you aware of this, Dennis?
- [12:12]
Dennis Scully
I was not aware of that.
- [12:14]
Fred Nicholas
I wonder what value they've extracted out of those particular properties. But yes, but now private equity also owns Forniceti. I was definitely interested in this. It's not totally surprising to see an Italian heritage brand. Fornacetti was founded in 1940 to see it sold off. There's been a lot of that recently where you have these situations where they're selling to one of these big holding companies like the Floss B and B Italia Group or Dexelence. It seems like a time of consolidation. This is a little bit of a different. Because I sort of normally associate those kinds of deals with a company that has a lot of history but is maybe a little bit shop worn. And it's got like 16 heirs all trying to vie for their own 5% of the company. And maybe it's cleaner and simpler to sell it off to somebody who wants to grow and scale it. But Fornacetti is a company that I feel like is very engaged in the modern design world. They're always doing these collabs. They're always showing up in festivals. It seems like they really have scaled on some level. It feels somewhat fresh. I'm not an expert on Fornacetti. It did take me by surprise a little bit. What about you?
- [13:20]
Dennis Scully
I wasn't sure how Fornisetti as a brand and as a product offering was perceived within the design world. I mean, I often think of some of the collaborations with Cole and Son Wallpaper, for example, and some of the interesting designs that they do there. I wasn't sure if a lot of these pieces had become collector pieces, the vintage pieces, or how designers perceive them these days.
- [13:45]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, I don't know. Well, that's a big question. I think it's certainly more well known in Europe. I mean, I think a US designers who are sort of aware of the European scene probably know Fornostetti pretty well. But maybe there's room to grow in the US And I mean, I think on some level that's the asset here. You can get a lot of things cheaply made, you can get a lot of different kinds of products made, but it's hard to. You can't just grow history from the start. And I think that a brand that has a history, has a unique product, can certainly be grown in a way that it's more difficult to grow something from scratch. We've talked about that before. History is really one of the kind of the commodities that remains extremely valuable in a day and age when it seems like anyone can make anything and everything is AI Slop. I didn't think we'd be talking about AI Slop when we talked about Fornaceti.
- [14:35]
Dennis Scully
But always happy when that comes around.
- [14:38]
Fred Nicholas
Exactly. I'm not really sure those two are actually directly connected, but I do think history is valuable. Fornaceti certainly has it and I'm guessing that was part of the equation for this company, Oakley Capital. They also own Alessi, so it's possible that they're going to be doing more purchasing among Italian brands. Always curious to see what's happening with these companies because they have these very rich histories and it seems like there is opportunity. I'm hopeful that this is a case of the new owners genuinely wanting to grow and expand and do new things as opposed to, as I said earlier, extracting capital, which does happen with private equity.
- [15:15]
Dennis Scully
Well, I agree. I hope that this means that we'll be seeing more of Fornisetti in whatever form and shape that comes in, but we'll stay tuned and see what happen. Next up we're going to talk about.
- [15:26]
Fred Nicholas
Woven Home, another acquisition story. Earlier this month, founder Davina Ogilvy sold the company to John Mihalios, owner of the New York based upholstery and drapery workroom Master Craftsman Decorators. Maybe not as surprising as Fornicetti. I feel like, you know, these direct to consumer companies are changing hands a lot these days, but an interesting one. Were you familiar with Woven Home, Dennis?
- [15:47]
Dennis Scully
I was and I've had some communication with Divina in the past. I'm a fan and I'm hoping that this means good things for for her. I'm glad that we continue to have a series of brand takeover stories to talk about on the show and in the home world. I hope that she grew her business to a certain level and in order to grow it further needed a new partner perhaps.
- [16:12]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, we should maybe explain a little bit what Woven Home was and is. Ogilvy started in 2019. It was kind of a classic direct to consumer ideas. She observed that it is hard to buy draperies. It's very confusing. Local workrooms can be spread out and maybe difficult to work with in some contexts. She approached the problem with there's got to be a better way. And the idea was put together an offering online. Consumers could specify their drapery through the site and she would have various workshops make it and send it to them. Kind of like a shade Store type situation. But all online acquisition is interesting because I, when I, when I heard this news, I was like, oh, she probably sold to the person who was manufacturing her drapery. That, that makes sense. But it's actually kind of like a, it was just somebody she knew and maybe they'd collaborated a little bit, but it wasn't exactly like a, it wasn't that kind of partnership. What did you make of this, this company, Master Craftsman Decorators acquiring it?
- [17:12]
Dennis Scully
Well, it sounded as if Master Craftsman had been watching the business grow and had been sort of keeping an eye on her over the, over the years and, and, and it seemed as if, if she was getting to that sort of scaling point where either she would probably need some big investment, whether it be private equity or from somewhere, and also some greater capabilities. And you mentioned the 800 pound gorilla in the industry, the shade store. And I don't envy anyone going up against the shade store. So I think she probably felt the need to bulk up, if you will.
- [17:51]
Fred Nicholas
Exactly. I think also the company that acquired her does a lot of upholstery, which she didn't do. I think part of the story of Woven, which is maybe unsurprising, is that she was working with the trade a lot. I think like a lot of people who come into the direct to consumer world, you think you're going to be working with consumers, but when you start doing home products, you realize that actually designers are the best customers. Probably maybe part of the appeal of the acquisition was you have these designer customers. Maybe they want upholstery from me as well. Let's see what we can do. I do think it is interesting though that Woven has its own story. They didn't take a bunch of venture capital money. This was not like a $50 million in business. This was a bootstrap situation. But I think it is worth talking about the fact that it's a business model that seemed to have so much promise in the decade between 2010 and 2020. So many of these brands have had these kind of low key acquisitions. I don't think we talked about it in business of home, but Claire was recently acquired. All of the Havenly brands have been rolled up. Floyd sold to one of its business partners. None of these companies have turned into a billion dollar juggernaut. And I don't know, it's just worth thinking about and potentially writing a 6,000 word story about something.
- [19:06]
Dennis Scully
Which we definitely look forward to, Fred.
- [19:08]
Fred Nicholas
Sure, some of us do.
- [19:09]
Dennis Scully
And we don't want to discourage anyone from trying to start a business But I mean, I think if I understand your point, it's a reminder of just how challenging this is. And I think. And again, the article that Hayley wrote referred to the fact that the designers were asking for lots of different categories and wanting more than just the original product offering. And that's understandable. And so again, the business needed to scale and to grow. And that's not always easy.
- [19:41]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah.
- [19:42]
Fred Nicholas
And I mean, to be clear, these are all different situations. Some of these companies actually collapsed. This sounds like it was more of just a direct sale because it seemed like this was the best way to grow. But I think I'm more talking about the broader business model than specifically woven home. But I guess maybe it's nothing complicated about it. It's hard to start a new business that's nothing new.
- [20:02]
Dennis Scully
Well, as we've talked about often in the past, this show was built in part to talking about disruptors. And there aren't too many disruptors that have ended up really disrupting. That is a big theme at Business of Home. Good luck to you if you're gonna be a disruptor. That's a big takeaway message. But look forward to that 6,000 word piece. Fred, let us know when that's coming. In the meantime, let's talk about hgtv, shall we, Fred?
- [20:27]
Timur Yumasaklar
Sure.
- [20:28]
Fred Nicholas
And we have to thank our friend Billy Seglia for introducing this topic to us. He sent us a clip from this comedian online, Rob Anderson, who goes by the handle Heartthrob Anderson. I was already a fan of his. Just as a heads up, Billy, I know my instagra comedian who isn't. He sent this really funny clip of Rob making fun of this old HGTV show from the 90s. I'm gonna play a clip that Billy sent us over.
- [20:54]
Dennis Scully
I've basically been cringe binging this show decorating scents from the 90s where they redecorate a room on a budget and these girls do heinous shit like here. They took random rug samples and they're taping them together to make one big rug. This one. The host, Joan and her co defendant Peggy redo this little girl's room.
- [21:11]
Timur Yumasaklar
Room.
- [21:14]
Fred Nicholas
The rag technique creates a blended watercolor.
- [21:17]
Dennis Scully
Oh my gosh. She is freehanding stripes with a dish towel.
- [21:21]
Fred Nicholas
Now, our listeners cannot see that, but I can vouch for the fact that it is not terribly attractive. But it just kind of got us talking about old school HGTV and how it appears to be kind of in the ether a little bit these days.
- [21:36]
Dennis Scully
Well, I love that for so Long. HGTV was the bane of any designer's existence. And anytime it came up in conversation, they talked about how much they hated it because it created this sort of unrealistic scenario and gave people an unrealistic sense of cost. And now there's a nostalgia for the DIY days, early days of hgtv. No, wait, it's going away. We miss it.
- [22:02]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah. I mean, it's like you live long enough, you become the villain, and then if you live even longer, it's like people are nostalgic for you, I think is the lesson here. I do. HGTV is such an interesting entity because as you said, in the industry, it has giveth and it is taketh away. I think a lot of people talk about how it's ruined client expectations for the past 20 years, but I also think it really has done a lot to introduce a lot of would be designers, like, hey, this is a profession. So many people that we talk to now that Kaitlin interviewed for her 50 state series found out that design was a thing because of hgtv. And I think a lot of of clients realized they even wanted a decorator by watching shows on the channel. So admittedly there had to be a lot of education done on the back of that. But I think people maybe underestimate actually how beneficial it was for design in the big picture. But what's kind of interesting is now I don't want to stick a fork in hgtv, but there's a lot going on in the media and business world that makes me wonder if the channel will have the relevance it had for the past 20 years and the next.
- [23:06]
Dennis Scully
Well, I don't want to get too in the weeds, but we should talk about the big WarnerMedia discovery breakup and part of why we're imagining this continuing sort of downfall or certainly a dramatic drop in viewership over the years for HGTV and any of these sort of cable programs, which is part of why this big breakup and spinoff is happening.
- [23:31]
Fred Nicholas
Do you think this is what Billy Seglia wanted when he sent us this funny clip from the Instagram community? Let's talk about media mergers, he said.
- [23:39]
Dennis Scully
Talk about David Zaslav, the chief executive of Warner Brothers. People will be fascinated.
- [23:44]
Fred Nicholas
I'm going to try and do the pocket version of this story. So WarnerMedia, which is a big media company, and Discovery, which is a big cable channel company, merged a few years ago to try and compete with Netflix, but it didn't really work. So you had, on the one hand, you had hbo, which kept changing. The streaming service was HBO Go and Max and then it was just Max and now it's HBO again. So they went through all these identity crises, couldn't quite figure out the balance. And recently it was announced that actually the companies are just going to split up into two companies. We're going to have hbo, the streaming service on one side and all these cable channels like cnn, like HGTV in another company that's totally separate and apart from the streaming. And the CEO of the cable company is this guy named, I'm going to pronounce it badly, but Gunnar Wiedenfels, I want to say he's German and famous for being a cost cutter. He got rid of a lot of debt at the Comb. So there's a lot of speculation that because people just aren't watching cable TV anywhere near like they used to, that what's going to happen with all these channels is that they're just going to see costs get cut and cut and cut and slim down. I wonder what that spells for the future of hgtv, which is one of those assets that's going to maybe see its budget looked at pretty carefully over the next few years.
- [24:58]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. And unfortunately, all of the legacy media brands, cnn, hgtv, the Food Network, you name it, Magnolia caught up in that as well.
- [25:09]
Fred Nicholas
Right. They're one of those channels.
- [25:10]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. So unfortunately, that side of the business is being burdened with the biggest part of the debt as well. And so as you say, there's going to be a lot of motivation to cut costs. And as we talked about, the cord cutting phenomena has led to just a really dramatic drop in viewership of some of the big HGTV shows, but also a lot of the di why shows and a lot of the things that we were that Rob Anderson created some great comedy around were what the network used to be about. And then it became a real estate flipping kind of network. Right. And so it really changed. And there was a feeling that a lot of that seemed very out of step with a lot of the issues that we talk about around housing affordability and where interest rates are right now and all of that people.
- [26:00]
Fred Nicholas
Billy, you loving this interest rates?
- [26:03]
Dennis Scully
Isn't this the fun conversation you were hoping for, Billy? We totally turn this around. But I do think I love that Billy sent us the clip. And it is really humorous to look back on what HGTV was, but it is also interesting to think about what it became and now how that plays into the world that we live in today and where people are Getting all of this content from TikTok, which mercifully has yet again been saved.
- [26:30]
Fred Nicholas
Fred from going away. I don't know what the fate of HGTV is. I'm wary to stick a fork in it, as I said, because I think that, you know, even AOL still exists and makes hundreds of millions of dollars. And people, you know, are weaned off these habits very slowly. There's still an audience for it, but I suspect that in 10 years, designers will be upset about the effect that TikTok creators are having on their clients as opposed to the effect that HGTV shows are having on their clients. I think that's just sort of the, you know, the new reality we all have to get used to.
- [26:59]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. Well, Billy, I hope that was the fun story you were hoping for. Thanks so much for sending that in. And we encourage more people to send us funny video clips that we can turn into a downer of a convers on the show. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including July's Can't Miss Design events and what the sluggish spring housing market means for designers. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Laloy. For over 20 years, Laloy has been driven by strong foundations, a belief in beauty, a commitment to collaboration, and the quiet conviction that things made well and with purpose have the power to provide comfort for generations from product designs until the moment a rug arrives at your door. At Leloy, we're all woven together. Learn more@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow eloirugs on Instagram and TikTok. And we're back. I'm joined now by Schumacher's CEO, Timor Yumasaklar. Timur, welcome back to the show.
- [28:21]
Timur Yumasaklar
Thanks. Good to be back.
- [28:22]
Dennis Scully
Well, always a pleasure to talk with you. And we've got a lot to talk about, including, wait, a new acquisition, Teletextiles, which we were just talking about on the show recently. Recently. I'm eager to hear what made you want to make that acquisition.
- [28:35]
Timur Yumasaklar
I think craftsmanship and an incredible history of design language. We were honestly mesmerized by what the founders, Leslie and Didi had crafted together. I think they started out printing literally on the Upper east side in some today very expensive townhouse. I think the shop was first floor and then printing and Then living, I think. And. But, no, but in all seriousness, I think this dedication to craftsmanship and this dedication to explore a new design language around patterns, motifs and repeats and techniques is actually surprisingly rare to find in our industry. And I think there were real trailblazers at the time. They had this very interesting exhibition with Eames and Noguchi at the time, like the Eames chairman and the Rice Paper Lambs. And I think it shows you a little bit, like, more how groundbreaking they were. Right. And so, yeah, I think that's, like, where the whole idea started, I think, for us.
- [29:35]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's so interesting. So how did they first get on your radar? Did someone bring it to you? Had you been familiar with them in the past?
- [29:42]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, our company had done business. We acquired two patterns from Didi and Leslie in the last century. And so I think we always had been like, you know, friendly with each other. And, you know, we knew Patrick, who was the most recent in the extended family, who is running the print shop for them. And so, yeah, we always knew when I visited him, he had his printing shop right on the Appalachian Trail in Great Barrington, and he and a friend of mine visited him a few years back. And, yeah, that's how we started the conversation. And then we kept on going.
- [30:15]
Dennis Scully
So it seemed like a fairly small operation. Do I have that right? It's not a big.
- [30:20]
Timur Yumasaklar
That's correct, yeah.
- [30:21]
Dennis Scully
So it seemed very specialty. And do you plan to just sort of continue to roll, run it separately for now, or what's your thinking?
- [30:27]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yes, I think that's actually one of the main objectives, to keep the integrity of the brand. We'll explore also wallpaper, because we also have a printing workshop in New Jersey where we print our own wallpaper. So we're going to do fabric and wallpaper all hand screen printed. But we will keep the access to their vast and quite beautiful archive somewhat limited to, like, a more exclusive group and a little bit more to bespoken custom. Because we really also want to take the integrity and we do not want to run the risk of watering down that design language.
- [31:02]
Dennis Scully
It's interesting because we've been talking about a lot of acquisitions and deals lately on the show. Right. David Netto's buying Woodard Weave, and there have been a whole sort of range of relatively small acquisitions, but interesting companies that we didn't want to see go away. And this felt like one of those. Like, it would be a shame for this company to go away. Great that you stepped in and acquired it and can see where it can lead.
- [31:26]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, I agree with this. I mean, we have, like, you know, we are the. In our space of the industry, we are the oldest ones in the United States. We have been always dedicated to craftsmanship, to also, like, a really healthy portion of made in the United States. And I do think it's part of our responsibility as an organization to preserve of this craftsmanship for at least the next generation. Then they can decide where to take it from this. But we are artistically concerned that so much is going digital, particularly on the fabric side, you know, when there are, like, performance problems with, like, digitally printed fabrics. But it's also, you know, how far are we away from the moment where you ask ChatGPT, please give me, like, a tree of life in light green in this repeat, and then you get it back and like, you know, two weeks printed, digital. On some level, this is maybe liberating, which I fully understand. On the other hand, I think it is so beautiful. It's like, actually one of my happy places is literally our screen printing workshop. And you just see the dedication and also how the dyes react with the linens. And so. Yeah, and I think as part of that, I think we are always open to help out very traditional brands in the United States or to acquire them or so. And I think that's an important part. Part of what we do and I think what we stand for.
- [32:50]
Dennis Scully
Well, so is that a message that you want to put out, Timor, that you're open for more acquisitions?
- [32:54]
Timur Yumasaklar
No, I don't mean it in this.
- [32:55]
Dennis Scully
Because they could come flooding into you at any moment. I mean, we put that out.
- [32:59]
Timur Yumasaklar
That's fair. No, it's more important about the preservation. Right. Before something goes away, we would like to see how we can help before someone just decides to shut their doors and goes away. Yeah, sure. Yeah. In this case, please reach out first. Yes, I agree with that.
- [33:16]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I mean, and as we talked about, this company had a very special history and a connection to Albert Hadley and Jackie Kennedy and. Right. And so there were some great. Some great names involved. And so it's, as you say, it's wonderful to see it not go away. I feel as if maybe it's a generational moment that. That there just seem to be a lot of companies that might not have a successor lined up, and maybe there are more conversations like that to be had.
- [33:44]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yes, yes, I do share that. I think that's one. And I do think, you know, particularly on the. The printing side of fabrics, given I think the technology changes. Yes, I think that Market is on the move. Right. So we also have seen, you know, larger printing mills go out of business due to that. So there is a movement in that market all around, good and bad or good and difficult, I should say. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's. That's true. I do think that's particularly true for that end of the market. There are also tons of really interesting new artisan printing houses come along, and some of them are really unique and very exceptional.
- [34:28]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, it's interesting what's popping up. And people seem to be much more experimental these days. I'm curious, in thinking about past acquisitions, you and I were talking just before we came on air about Backdrop, for example, the paint brand that you acquired a few years back. I'm curious how that has fit in with what you've been doing and what you've learned from making that acquisition. I know that was a big part of wanting to do it, was the learning experience that might come from it.
- [34:57]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, that's a good question. So we learned a lot. I think we're very happy of where we are now. I think it's actually very successful now. I have a fond respect for the paint industry. I think that part of the thesis was, I think, a little bit more difficult. We are dedicated to paint. I think it's a very important tool, I think, in every designer's toolbox. I think we think it's a very interesting gateway for design enthusiasts, but for reasons, I think it's dominated by some few companies like Benjamin Moore and Sherman Williams. So we learned a lot about this. And I'm still learning about TRL2s or whatever they're called, and Pitmans. But. But the other thing, what is just magnificent around it is that Natalie was our creative director there. Her energy around a new design language that is, in a positive sense, free from tradition and engaging, I think, with an audience. We, as an organization have not yet been as much engaged with, has worked really, really well and is really exciting. And this is not a rule of small numbers. I think we are close to doubling again our wallpaper business on Backdrop, which is very exciting. And also. It's also art, basically, I think, just something really fresh and new. So I think we are very happy on that part of the thesis. Played out better than we thought and made up for the paint. Made up for my paint mistake.
- [36:27]
Dennis Scully
Well, listen, I mean, as you say, paint is complicated and the competitors are enormous.
- [36:32]
Timur Yumasaklar
Correct.
- [36:33]
Dennis Scully
I mean, Benjamin Moore is a Berkshire Hathaway company. I mean, it's enormous. Right. So I don't I don't envy anyone trying to. To go up against them in a meaningful way. But I'm also struck by. I mean, I was just in London, which is where you are at the moment, and I visited with Beata Hayman. She was showing me her paint collection, which was this lovely edited collection of sort of her favorites. And I feel as if more designers are doing collaborations with paint and trying to sort of narrow down the broader, broad selection. It seems to be getting a lot of attention.
- [37:13]
Timur Yumasaklar
I think so, because I think that paint is a wonderful material. Right. And I think, you know, and backdrop has a very curated palette, which I think is really, like, also good for that, because I think, like, particularly we see it around, like, trims, cabinet paint, you know, doors, and so there's a lot of accents you can make and without, like, you know, busting the budget. So. Yeah, so I can see that. Like, I don't know. I mean, you know, we sell a lot of wallpapers. I'm not sure if I want paint to come back all around, but. But I think it's. I do think it's a. It's a very interesting category, and I think an important one. And I also think this is one of the categories where I see technical innovation still happening. Right. With the different pigments. And, you know, you have more plaster and other things. And so, you know, so, yeah, it is really interesting.
- [38:01]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. No, no, no, it is. And I hear you. I don't want it to take away the wallpaper business. And truthfully, I was just staying at the Ham Yard, one of Kit Kemp's hotels, when I was there, and I think we need a lot more fabric covered walls. That was my big takeaway. Right.
- [38:18]
Timur Yumasaklar
I mean, I was just talking to Via Grenier this morning about it. The best for the acoustics in the room. We were joking. I would wish every restaurant would do that.
- [38:25]
Dennis Scully
Yes.
- [38:27]
Timur Yumasaklar
Big covered walls are the best for the acoustic in a room and make it so nice and cozy. So I agree with that.
- [38:34]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah.
- [38:34]
Dennis Scully
No, no, no. I was having lunch in a restaurant yesterday that could have benefited greatly from some fabric on the walls. Because you just can't even hear the person across the table from you.
- [38:43]
Timur Yumasaklar
Exactly.
- [38:45]
Dennis Scully
It's too loud. So, speaking of you and Vere granny running around town, and I want to hear more about that friendship another time. But it sounds like you both paid a visit to Chelsea harbor and visited the wow House. What did you think?
- [38:57]
Timur Yumasaklar
I think it was fascinating. It was so well executed. The two things I really like about it is that. Because it's for. You know, I don't know if everybody. I didn't understand fully what the warehouse was. So I think it's like this house built from scratch. Like, it would be, like, for a trade fair or something, Right. So it's not a lasting house, but it's, like, looks really fun. And what I really like about it is that it gives the best opportunity to create rooms you can actually really decorate easily and, like, make something of. Of it. And so it, like, you know, really shows something. The second thing, what I really like about it is that it partners designers with brands in a different way than you normally see in the US and it gives everybody a little bit more skin in the game. Right? Because, like, for example, when we did our wowhouse with Via Granny last year, yeah, we went all out, you know, like, it was important to us, too. It's, you know, it's not. But, yes, we love donating fabric to show houses around the country, but if we actually put our name on it, yeah, we were supported Via Granny wherever we could, and he did the most magnificent job on it. So I think I personally find it was like, I was really positively surprised. Maybe I shouldn't even been surprised, but about the energy around it, which is very good. So a big shout out to the Chelsea Harbor Design center for that. I love that. I would love if someone would do this in the US where someone would rather build a set, and with that, you get the best experience. And I think they charge you, I think, 25 British pounds to it, which I think is a fairly healthy, I think, ticket. But I do think the partnering between the brands and the designers also give it extra energy, because every brand really wants to advertise and obviously and promote the warehouse. So, yeah, I think it's a great innovation. So if that would make its way over to the United States, I would not.
- [40:45]
Dennis Scully
Okay, well, we'll see if we can make that happen. See if we can take Claire German over to the States and have her drive that as if she doesn't have enough on her plate. But it's also interesting seeing that design center. And I'm always so jealous comparing it to the D and D building when I'm over in Chelsea harbor and I'm sitting down having a lovely lunch in the middle of the design center, and there's all of this activity and. And light pouring in and all of that. It just makes me long for a nicer design center.
- [41:18]
Timur Yumasaklar
Business of home design center. Is that what you said, Dennis?
- [41:22]
Dennis Scully
I don't know.
- [41:23]
Timur Yumasaklar
Maybe. Yeah, it is really nice. I have to say this morning I had a nice Americano and croissant in the middle of it. So I agree with that.
- [41:30]
Dennis Scully
Yes, exactly.
- [41:32]
Timur Yumasaklar
So yes, I do think it has a lot of light. I think it's a really nice building and I do think that is like, I think for me currently one of the key benchmarks, I think in the world of design centers. I've seen. I would say that, yes.
- [41:46]
Dennis Scully
Speaking of design centers. So you recently came into the New York Design center with somewhat of a different feeling showroom for you. Tell me about that.
- [41:55]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, we have been talking to Jim like a long time and you know, I think he is one of I think the few landlords that does like tremendous amounts for the design community in the United States. And I think we're very grateful for that. We always had and will have our showrooms for Patterson Flynn and Schumacher in the D and D building. But we've been talking for a long time. We always liked the energy. We liked. I think it has a slightly different feel to us and I think the energy Jim and his team brings to it. And we wanted to, instead of just replicating what we do at the D and D, we call like Schumacher Downtown. It was actually almost like a self discovery which I think turned out actually wonderful for us. Is that because we have so much wonderful product that's not all statement patterns. We have actually really good textures and mohairs and velvets and all of that and we wanted to bring this out a little bit more. We also own Pedersen flint and so we combine Pedersen Flynn in there, which I think really works together well between a really good, good floor covering, wallpaper and fabric now. And so yeah, it has been actually quite successful so far. I think traffic has been really robust. So yeah, I think we're excited to see where it gets us. It's a little bit new to us too, I have to say. It's not a little bit of a new concept. So we're also finding our way around it. And so I always have been a big proponent of self discovery, innovation, trying out new things. Sometimes I'm very curious and sometimes my colleagues are saying would be nice if he's not as cur. But I think that's which I think is a fair comment sometimes. But I do think it's very important to stay fresh, to do interesting things. And so I think like Schumacher Downtown has been really interesting to us and very exciting for us and it gives us a lot of confidence that we can be more than statement Patterns, I think, with our basics, our solids, our textures. And I think that's really good for us as an exploration and exploration.
- [44:01]
Dennis Scully
Well, and tell me how that relates to the boutiques that you've been opening in different parts of the country that have even a different kind of feel from the design center spaces.
- [44:13]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, the boutiques, we have one in Nashville and one in Charlotte so far, well, they were born a little bit from the necessity that we were. There was a time that started before COVID where we started to feel a little bit constrained by the. The presence of design centers or like larger design centers. Right. And we needed to build the courage to step outside of design centers. And what we tried to solve for is like, we are like, I think, like our culture is very inviting. And I think I do. I hope we're like, you know, very welcoming. And so we did want to welcome homeowners if they stumble upon us and, you know, they walk in. Some design centers are more designed that a homeowner does not come in. And so. So they're a little bit more hidden. And so it's a bit harder to hide otherwise. Right. And so we developed this boutique idea not to sell to homeowners. We do not want to sell to homeowners. And I think actually this boutique has kind of verified that and solidified that. But we do want to engage with them. And so we did, like, two things combined at the same time. One, we started like, you know, having these two boutiques now which have some merchandise, and there's like, you can buy candles, then you can buy books there and some pillows or so, but not fabric or not wallpaper or not rugs. And the second thing we did is we started publishing our own books and we started making candles, and we started making, you know, really high end, you know, wrapping papers and things like that, because it's important for us to give homeowners the ability to engage with us, you know, but we do highly prefer if they. When they buy expensive curtain from us, that they use an expert to do that and who knows which workroom to go to. Right. But we. But these together worked. But also we learned we're not a retail company. And I. We do not want to be a retail company.
- [45:59]
Dennis Scully
Speaking of things that you're spending a lot of money on, shall we talk about Frederick?
- [46:02]
Timur Yumasaklar
Let's talk about my favorite spending item. Yeah, I love that. Sure. Yes.
- [46:08]
Dennis Scully
Does that have its own separate line items on the budget for Frederick? I mean, so, I mean, all joking aside, you've got some new distribution deal it sounds like. Yes, greater, greater exposure. So tell me about, about that.
- [46:21]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, we're very excited. We're now partnered with Hudson News so we're distributing now in all the main transit points in around Tri State area and Los Angeles which is very exciting for us which I think is just a new frontier. And this was like because we had been one of the best selling items in Barnes and Nobles for a long time. We have really very high sell through rates which is very exciting. Yeah, so we did that. Yeah. It has its own P and L. It does. It's not black but it does have its own P and L. You know. But yeah, but I think the energy around it we really love and you know it always had started Darren. I said from the beginning it's a quality first project and then the hypothesis that money would follow. And that is very much true the case. Yeah, I do and I said this actually I think in one of our previous comments. I do fundamentally believe in this community and I do believe we're only going to be successful altogether. I always have said that. I sometimes surprised about the level of sometimes like competition and sometimes even petty between companies and it's probably everywhere. But because we are so intertwined I also really find that. I find designers are true magicians and I do think it's our responsibility not only try to sell to them but to promote them where we can. And that has not changed. And so all of this is just coming from that. And there is like a long term business rationale in the sense that I think my company, our company is only going to be as strong as the entire industry and that is more important for me than me being like 2% higher than just my next one over by putting them down. There's never been me.
- [48:09]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no, I know and I know you've often talked about the community and wishing that more companies would work more collaboratively with and I think this whole notion of supporting the design community and honestly for this whole industry, such an important component in all of this is how do we continue to engage people and make them want to hire designers to help them with their homes because that's what keeps this whole industry together. Which is why I'm so curious. And I mean again I joke about design centers but I'm always trying to get a handle on what role design centres are playing. And when I was in London, Clare German was talking about how do we engage this next generation of designers? How do we make sure that they feel a part of coming to the design center, being part of this community that they're not just behind a computer screen, but they're really out in the world. And this is a huge problem that we have in the States and that I talk about often with lots of people. You talk to a lot of seasoned designers, and they tell you they're younger staff members, aren't going to design centers, and aren't coming to see product in the same way. And so what do we do about that? Solve this team, please.
- [49:27]
Timur Yumasaklar
I wish I could. I mean, I have, like, two hypotheses to. Let's actually have three. So the first thing I would say, right, If I could, I would not pay rent in my design centers. I would pay them either per traffic or for almost. For the Instagram or other social media activity. I don't understand, like, I understand conceptually why I'm paying rent, but I. But I think in terms of the value I'm looking for is traffic in my showroom. Right. And so. And I think there's a disconnect between that where there's a. My rent is not tight. And therefore, design centers. Well, at least some design centers seem to be not. Or not seem to be as incentivized to drive up my traffic. Correct. And because, like, there is in some, you know, cities, there's the only place. That's why I think, you know, some, you know, owners, like, it is that you can only go to one design center. So there's also not the need to. And I think that's why, you know, big shout out again to, you know, Schultze Harlow. You know, I think they do really invest into this. I'm sure this wall was very expensive. And the. The second thing is, is sure, online. Right. I do think there's just no way around it. I think you just have to be better and better and better online. And the third thing, though, is, you know, and I think Frederick is part of that. Our Itlis is part of that. I think, you know, us opening in Charlotte, opening in Nashville, as part of that. I think, you know, we have announced, I think that we're opening in Charleston. I can share that. We are opening in Birmingham.
- [50:54]
Fred Nicholas
Oh, okay.
- [50:54]
Timur Yumasaklar
So, yeah. And all of this is because we also feel we need to be closer and closer, connected to our community.
- [51:03]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah.
- [51:03]
Dennis Scully
I mean, honestly, today, I think it's hard to. That overused expression of meeting people where they are. I think it's harder and harder to figure out where they are or where they want to be. Correct.
- [51:15]
Timur Yumasaklar
100%. Agreed.
- [51:16]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. So it is challenging. Another big challenge that we have to face in the industry today. I didn't want to bring it up, Timor, but we got to talk about tariffs. Shall we?
- [51:25]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, let me check the news.
- [51:28]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. I mean, we need to timestamp this. So Timor and I are talking on Friday the 13th and as far as we know. So as far as we know, we seem to have made some deal with Britain. Glad we got that out of the way. One of our biggest trading partners. Oh, wait, no, not really at all. But great that that's done. The eu, it seems like things have calmed down there. I mean, tell me how tariffs have shown up in your world.
- [51:53]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, they show up as a line item in my material costs.
- [51:58]
Dennis Scully
They show up when I go down. Down to collect my imported goods.
- [52:02]
Timur Yumasaklar
That's correct. So that does, you know, they have the habit of just debiting, so. I know. I think it is, I do think it is a very severe problem. Right. I think that it also seems to me a little bit everybody has forgotten that there's very much Everywhere like a 10% increase in tariffs all around. I think it's more like, I think the 10% is one. It's more the uncertainty, which I think you have heard before, but it's more the uncertainty, I think that stresses everybody out, including me. And the third thing is, which is interesting, we are concerned for the currency exchange rates. So I think it's important for everybody to understand that the tariffs is one. But if the dollar is weak and so the dollar has lost about 10%. So now I'm like 10% down for tariffs. Now I'm another 10% down for currency exchange rates when I buy my goods overseas, even if they're dollar denotinated because eventually they will say, look, I need, you know, it's not as worth as much. And so that is a real problem. And so, yeah, I think that's a 20% charge to my material.
- [53:04]
Dennis Scully
So between the currency devaluation and the tariffs, suddenly. Yeah, suddenly there's 20%. That has to go somewhere. And it's been interesting to see. We keep waiting for the CPI and the ppi, the Consumer Price Index and the Producer Price Index to, to have these numbers show up in some meaningful way. They have, haven't yet. But you feel like any minute that number has to show up somewhere. Everybody can't be eating these costs.
- [53:28]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, so that's correct. But we have, for example, also not increased our cost yet. Right. So we have kept our costs stable. I do think we're approaching the point where we might have to also increase our price by 2, 3% or so. But the reason why we have not and I do think that's important to point out right. As an organization because particularly if you have inventory, you don't need to increase your pricing immediately. So you have a few months or so to do so and to see what really happens. Right. And so I think for example everybody who increased the prices on day one, it's their own decision. But from what I understand, I don't think that was like yet due to immediate tariffs. Right. So I think for us it was important to fully understand. So I believe that we will see it really in Q4 where I think now during the summer months I think we'll see a significant price increases all around and then I think it will start really showing up like let's say in the, you know, consumer index numbers and inflation numbers like probably September maybe, hopefully I'm wrong and maybe like by that time it's all fine. But I do think it will have an impact particularly as the double whammy. You know, I think tariffs and currency, that is a double whammy. That's not easy.
- [54:35]
Dennis Scully
And the problem with the unpredictability is I feel as though it is becoming increasingly clear that the Federal Reserve perhaps ought to be lowering rates in this environment. We are seeing unemployment creeping up, we are seeing other signs of slowing in the economy economy. But the Fed continues to say that their hands are somewhat tied because of the lack of clarity around when the tariff costs are going to show up and what inflationary impact that's going to have.
- [55:02]
Timur Yumasaklar
Yeah, I think it is a very tricky environment to make any long term decisions. I also find, let's say the Fed reduces, that's nice for mortgage rates and eventually maybe for the home industry which we are an extension of. But on the other end that most likely going to support price, you know, the US dollar even further. Right. So like if you would say like the Fed reduces its, you know like interest rates by I don't know, 3, 400 basis. Well not 400 but like let's say like 200 basis points. Yeah, it will have significant impact on the. Because I think the Europeans and British, you know, bank of England is already at the bottom so.
- [55:37]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, well that. Right, exactly. And that's what I'm wondering. I mean on the one hand we, we do need to unlock the housing market. Right? Totally multiple, multiple years in this frozen housing market. I mean it's not good for anybody. But of course as you say lowering interest rates probably would have even greater impact on the dollar and this whole sort of changing relationship that we seem to be having with Europe and with Britain is not helping from that perspective. Finally, Timur, I'm wondering as we wrap up, you alluded to the fact earlier, and I was curious about this. This perhaps to your own surprise, you've been at Schumacher for 10 years now, right? Did you did that coming?
- [56:25]
Timur Yumasaklar
No, I'm as surprised as you are. But I have fallen in love with this industry. I have to say that, too. So I feel like I've built wonderful friendships in this industry, and so I'm still here.
- [56:39]
Dennis Scully
I feel like the first time we spoke, you were like, yes, I'm curious about this industry. I'd love to learn a bit. I sort of. Of felt like you weren't really settling in. But now, suddenly we're a decade into this, and I'm. And I'm curious. I mean, I know you've fallen for this industry in a big way. What is it you learned about this industry that makes you feel the way you. You do?
- [57:00]
Timur Yumasaklar
Well, first, I would say the first time you interviewed me, you brought crackers, cheese, and wine, you know, and so, you know, I think that. So something's changed, you know, But I don't know if that was like, you just, just wanted to, you know, okay, you're in London.
- [57:14]
Dennis Scully
I, you know, had I been able to be in the same place. But okay, so the hospitality level's gone down here.
- [57:20]
Fred Nicholas
All right, all right.
- [57:21]
Timur Yumasaklar
Well, you just like, all good, but no, no, but I do think it's a. I think that the industry is at a very interesting inflection point. I do find it fascinating. We have, like, as an organization the last 10 years, 11 years, like since Dara started, you know, she started like a year before me. Grow tremendously. And I think we have a lot of fun and a lot of energy. And I think, yeah, I would say we're not done yet. I'm not going to be here for another 135 years, but I'm excited for the things to come.
- [57:53]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, it seems like there's so much more that you still want to do. And I do think it's interesting, this inflection point that we're in. Honestly, so many people are still questioning even this to the trade model. I was on the earnings call for RH last night, and the CEO, Gary Friedman, loves to poke at the. To the trade model, saying that it's very, very cryptic and lacks transparency and all of that. I don't know your take there, but.
- [58:24]
Timur Yumasaklar
I know you Like RH as a topic. But I would. I don't know even what to say to this because if you want to have a beautiful home, it is really difficult. It is like you put in there, I don't know, five to whatever, depending how big your house is, like 500 and more items, it's like for them all to match that the colors match to just the project management alone would have worked to me. The second thing is we're not giving away a trade secret now, but interior designers get a discount. So I don't. You almost get the whole service not for free, but I think you get a really value add service. And on top of that you're not going to be surprised when your, let's say RH sofa arrives. It's much bigger than you thought because you bought it in some huge room and now it's like not looking the same. And then you need to call an interior designer. No, I think interior designers are true artists. I like to call them magicians because I really don't understand how they do it all. The second thing is it is a complicated thing to do. And you know, we talked about paint, we talked about wallpaper. Now you want to have the right bathroom, whatever. You want to think through how the light and everything works in your house. It's really complicated. I also think more and more interior designers do renovations upwards. They do a lot of the architecture work. This profession I think is well in alive. I think in my opinion actually if I would have to decide rather thriving. So I do what I do. So yeah, sometimes it takes courage to call an interior designer. But I wish more people people would because it's not really. It's actually quite helpful once you have someone who knows what they're doing.
- [59:58]
Dennis Scully
Yeah.
- [59:58]
Timur Yumasaklar
Can I say this? I love this because I always say I was surprised because we go to a lawyer or to a dentist for a reason. I don't understand why we don't go into an interior designer for the same. I mean they're as professionals or educated in their field. And so.
- [60:13]
Dennis Scully
No, no, I raise that just because it's so interesting that looking at that model and I just think that you and I are very much on the same page. I wish that designers were perceived on same level of professionalism as lawyers and dentists and others. And that's where I really want this industry to get to. Timur, thank you so much for making the time to talk with me. Always a pleasure.
- [60:36]
Timur Yumasaklar
Likewise. Thank you so much for having me, Dennis, as always, fun.
- [60:44]
Dennis Scully
And we're back we're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [60:52]
Fred Nicholas
This isn't in the industry, but my upcoming vacation has very much caught my eye.
- [60:56]
Dennis Scully
Caught my eye, Fred.
- [60:58]
Fred Nicholas
I'm gonna be out for the next couple weeks. So listeners, we're actually gonna. We're both gonna be out next week for July 4th. There will be no Thursday show, but the week after that, Caitlin will be filling in again for me, and then I will be back the following week when I try to remember what the design industry is after being away for two weeks. So. So that's definitely on my mind. But in the meantime, I hope listeners will appreciate that I am the podcast's resident Kelly Wearstler watcher. She is the bellwether for how the design industry is going. And I will say in all sincerity, I feel like she really is ahead of, you know, trends in the media. She started a substack very early. You know, a lot of designers are doing it now. She was there first, and I've noticed recently she's just posting so much more video content on her Instagram feed is so much more kind of like something behind the scenes. You can kind of tell she. It's not supernatural for her. She doesn't like talking and stuff, but she's really, like, putting herself into it and like, you know, putting herself on video and kind of saying funny things and showing people what her, you know, her personality is like, a little bit more, you know, as opposed to, you know, a lot of the content that you would historically post, which is more these, like, manicured sort of photo shoot type things. So I know it's a very in the weeds thing, but I really do think that, you know, that is the way all these platforms are going. Kelly knows she's doing it. I would recommend designers follow, follow suit and try and find a way to make video work for them, because I think, you know, where Kelly goes, so goes the industry.
- [62:22]
Dennis Scully
And I actually think it's very endearing the way she shares that. It's not what comes naturally for her. I think it's very sweet that someone who is such a giant in the industry is willing to look vulnerable in that way. So I actually admire that part of the whole effort as well.
- [62:39]
Fred Nicholas
100%. Well caught your eye this week, Dennis.
- [62:41]
Dennis Scully
As listeners know, I was sad about the news that Hatta Bing was stepping down as the editor at House and Garden, but we finally have a replacement for her. And we wrote about it this week on Business of Home. Talib Chaudhary is going to be the new editor in chief. He comes from the Middle east or version of Architectural Digest and he's, he's very well thought of in the industry. And I'm, I'm told by the Conde Nast media team that he is brimming with ideas for the title. So I'm, so I'm glad that there is, there is a successor for how to Bing and I, and I wish him luck and I, I hope that we'll be talking to him on the show soon once he gets his footing, but it sounds like end of July he'll be stepping in.
- [63:22]
Fred Nicholas
Excellent. Yeah, I hope to hear from him on the show.
- [63:23]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, I look forward to talking to him soon. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Michalaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.