← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: The Expert wants to build a one-stop shop for the trade. Plus: Tariffs are getting real
01:09:41
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, the leadership team behind The Expert joins the show to talk about the company's next move.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to the leadership team behind the expert. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including a major art fair acquisition, the latest on tariffs and earnings reports from Wayfair and Ethan Allen. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:31]
Fred Nicholas
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:32]
Dennis Scully
Very well. How are you doing?
- [00:34]
Fred Nicholas
Good. Spring has sprung. It's a beautiful day. I wish, wish we were doing the podcast outside, but here we are locked up in our respective studios. It's very much, you know, the beginning of the, of the busy season here in New York. Design Week, which is really Design Month, has kind of kicked off, and I'm, I'm out and about. How about you?
- [00:51]
Dennis Scully
I feel the same way. Invitations are coming in hot and heavy. Everyone wants us to stop by and see that new chair, that new light, that new light switch. Yeah, I'm excited.
- [01:01]
Fred Nicholas
The new light switch. Haven't gotten that one, Dennis. I did go to a really cool opening of a gallery here in New York, this company called Radner, which hosts gallery shows, but they're in penthouses that aren't that are in the process of being sold. So it's this crazy penthouse on the 77th floor of the East River. Really beautiful spot. I went there and there. No one believed me that designers advertise on Instagram. So I had to bring the gospel from last week's show to let them know. And you've got something coming up, too. You were talking with one of our stars from this year on the podcast, Stephanie Sabi next week, Right.
- [01:35]
Dennis Scully
Stephanie Sabi. Abby is coming to town and the real challenge is what can we talk about that we didn't already get into on the podcast? That's going to be the challenge.
- [01:45]
Fred Nicholas
I'm not worried. I think when the two of you guys get together, I'm definitely not worried about a lack of things to talk about. If listeners want to join, it's next Tuesday, which I believe is May 13th here in New York City. What are the details, Dennis, for the good people?
- [01:58]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's going to be standing room only because apparently we've already got quite a bunch of RSVPs. It's at, at the Fratto showroom, which is at 500 Park Avenue, which is about 59th and park, right across from Scully and Scully, and it's from 6 to 8, so hopefully we will see a bunch of listeners there. It is guaranteed to be a fun evening when Stephanie Sabbat comes to town.
- [02:19]
Fred Nicholas
Agreed. In the meantime, let's look quickly back on Ed Hollander, who was our guest on Monday's episode of the podcast. Very, very lovable guy that Ed Hollander.
- [02:28]
Dennis Scully
Who also brings the wit and charm that Ed Hollander. And interestingly, I ended a somewhat surprising conversation in that we got into the fact that here he is at the top of his game as a landscape architect, working with Bunny Williams and Tom Kligerman and countless luminaries in the industry, but confessed that he struggled a bit with school and he was pretty surprised that he ended up getting into some pretty choice universities along the way because truth be told, a lot of people told him he wasn't going to be a big he showed them.
- [03:08]
Fred Nicholas
He also talked about how he had dinner with King Charles, who was apparently a big landscape guy. And I just love to imagine what the conversation would be like between the most proper person on earth and Ed Hollander, who's very delightfully improper at times. So I don't know, maybe we can get the two of them together for a special episode of the podcast. We'll get the palace online too, see if they want to do it.
- [03:29]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm going to be at Highgrove in a couple of weeks, so maybe we can do a broadcast from there and see how it comes together. But Ed is a joyful soul, Ed, and it's a fun listen. He is always a great conversation and I think people are going to especially enjoy that one. Okay, we're going to get into the news, but first a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by the Crate and Barrel Trade Program Designers. If you haven't joined yet, it's time to check them out. You'll get access to beautiful, high quality furniture and decor from three design driven brands, Kraton Barrel, CB2 and Kraton Kids, right at your fingertips, plus a dedicated concierge team to support your projects. From concept to flawless installation, members also get an exclusive 20% discount with no minimum purchase. Join today@ CrateAndBarrel.com trade and start enjoying all the perks. This podcast is sponsored by Jaipur Living. Since 1978, Jayport Living has redefined rug making where the value lies not just in the rugs themselves, but in the hands that create them. Every piece is a reflection of heritage care and extraordinary craftsmanship passed down through generations of artisans. For interior designers, the Jaipur Living Trade program offers more than just exclusive benefits and insider pricing. It offers a trusted partnership rooted in Service. With over 2000 rugs in stock and ready to ship. They make it seamless to deliver timeless style and substance to every client. Apply to become a partner@jaiporliving.com and we're back. First up, Fred Freeze is acquired.
- [05:25]
Fred Nicholas
The art fair and media brand has been purchased by entertainment mogul Ari Emanuel, who formerly served as CEO of Freeze's current owner, Endeavor. The news broke just days before the brand's flagship event in New York, which is running through the weekend. Dennis, we're the most insider y art world insiders.
- [05:43]
Dennis Scully
Who better than us really, to discuss this with our vast art knowledge?
- [05:48]
Fred Nicholas
What's funny is that I'm an art. I was an art history major in college, but emphasis on history as opposed to art present. Yes, but this is big news. We're kind of at the big start of the art fair season and Frieza is one of the big ones. And just to roll it back a little bit, it started as a magazine in the 90s, and in the early 2000s they launched an art fair in London which became wildly successful. They ported it over here to New York. They, in the process of growing, acquired a bunch of other art fairs, including the Armory show here in New York and this one called Expo Chicago, obviously in Chicago. And so it's a big entity in the world of art fairs. And of course, they have the magazine as well. Yeah, I spoke to a couple people about it. No one seemed to express the thought to me that this is going to change everything at Frieze or Frieze was having problems and this will fix them, or the leadership of the company is apparently staying on. People said, look, it was kind of odd that it was owned by Endeavor, obviously. Ari Emanuel clearly cares about this. So it'll be good to have somebody at the top who's focused on it and has maybe some interesting ideas. So I didn't hear a wide array of negative sentiment around this, but maybe you heard differently. Dennis, what do the naysayers have to say about this one?
- [07:00]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, and there always are naysayers, of course, who, who just don't like the idea of things changing. But the interesting thing that I heard from several people was so it was owned by an event company and it's, it is such a big event and it feels to, to some as if it's becoming even more of a bit of a circus like atmosphere. And have we gotten away from some of the legitimacy of the, of the wonderful art and is and is a lot of it now, perhaps lesser grade art and more about performance and more about just everybody sort of being there for the, for the buzz and for the, for the TikTok opportunities. Fred? I don't know, but, but it used to be a place where I think people felt that. That maybe art was. Was taken a little bit more seriously or something. I don't know. The art market has struggled in recent years, as we've discussed, and so I think many people are hopeful that maybe some new energy is. Is brought to the event. And as you say, Ari has a large art collection and seems quite passionate about his collection and wanting to support the community. But. But the naysayers just felt like, oh, more spectacle to come. And is this really good for the real art dealers who are perhaps more serious about things?
- [08:21]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, I mean, I think that's totally valid. It reminds me a lot of how people have been talking about Salone for the past few years and that it has gone away from being, you know, about were designed by serious people and into spectacle and hype and fashion brands and car companies coming in to get their hit on social. I'm sure that some version of that is happening. I think that's kind of part of the life cycle of something that gets big and successful. It gets big enough and then it loses a little bit of its edge. I have no doubt that some cool, disruptive art thing is brewing right now and is probably happening somewhere cooler than I am and will come and bring the authenticity. So I think it's a valid complaint, but I think it's just part of the life cycle. And as you mentioned, the art market has been suffering. Not to bring up the T word this early in the show, but tariffs probably inject another dose of uncertainty. I'm sure the people who have the money to buy art are probably feeling a little bit wonky about where the economy is going and I'm not sure how that'll affect. This is a big buying season right now and I'm not sure how it's going to go. There was a great article recently about how tfaf, the big Fair, is dealing with because tariffs matter for people bringing in art for these fairs. There was this article that talked about how people are bringing in different kinds of art because they don't want to be subjected to the tariffs and how people are even bringing in replicas of pieces that exist across the ocean because they just want to sell the replica and then deliver the real thing when it actually gets bought. I don't know. Tariffs throw a monkey wrench into everything, including art, and I think all eyes will be on the numbers that come out of the auctions and the fairs.
- [09:51]
Dennis Scully
Interestingly enough, it's very similar to what we talk about so often in the housing market. This is the big start of the art season. And much the same way that all the realtors want to be feeling positive about where the market is right now, the art dealers and the art collectors want to feel really positive too. And like everybody else, there's just a lot of uncertainty in the art market and nobody can really be sure if some big sales are coming. Since you brought up the T word, Fred, let's jump into tariffs, shall we? The impact of President Trump's ongoing trade war has continued to play out in recent weeks with with the US economy contracting for the first time since early 2022. Closer to home, tariffs are showing up in designers everyday lives more and more and on their Instagram feeds quite a bit. Fred?
- [10:45]
Fred Nicholas
Yes, yes. Right before we hit record, someone just sent me a DM of a designer's Instagram story about how they just been hit with their first tariff. It was like, mildly celebratory. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, we're just in such a weird moment with the tariffs. Right. And I thought, you know, it's a month in since, what was it, Independence Day? No, Liberation Day is what it was when these massive numbers were announced and most of them came off. But of course, the 145% tariff on China is still there. So I thought it would be just sort of interesting to sort of take stock of where we are, because every day it seems like the tariffs get more and more real. As you said, they're showing up for designers. Prices are coming up all around the industry. But at the same time, there is this weird, pervading sense from everyone I talk to that they're just going to go away. Like, I don't talk to anyone who thinks the tariffs will be where they are in even a month from now. I don't know. It's kind of surreal in a way, don't you think?
- [11:38]
Dennis Scully
Well, it seems almost unimaginable, and I think that's part of it. And I think when President Trump put a pause on everything and the market surged and gained back much of what it had lost after Liberation Day, everybody thought, oh, okay, it's fine, maybe it's going to be 10% in the end, and we can live with that. But recently, that language seems less reassuring coming from the administration and even the Federal Reserve chairman today, who didn't change interest rates and kind of came forward and said, listen, I'm just About as confused as you all are about where.
- [12:18]
Fred Nicholas
Just what you want to hear.
- [12:19]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. I don't have any more information than you do. And interestingly, what he said, which I don't think is going to make the President happy, is that he sees the tariffs as likely impacting employment and also raising inflation. So not a good situation.
- [12:38]
Fred Nicholas
Let's talk about what the actual impact has been. So there was this big number that came out that said that in the first quarter of the year, GDP contracted for the first time since 2022. Obviously the technical definition of a recession is 2/4 of GDP contraction. So that caught everyone's attention. However, a lot of the analysis I saw seemed to be that yes, this was about tariffs, but it wasn't as much of a five alarm fire as people were saying. It was largely because we imported so much more in anticipation of the tariffs that it threw off the math of the gdp. What did you make of that number though? Do you think that's an impactful thing or not?
- [13:12]
Dennis Scully
I think to your point, it's never good when you're seeing a negative GDP number. And you can argue that the gdp, the way it's constructed is flawed because to the point of this number, you have to deduct the huge import number from the rest of what the economy was doing. So in this particular quarter, on the heels of the tariff announcement, we saw all these companies rush to import as much as they possibly could. So this import number rose by nearly 50% in the quarter and that you have to subtract that number from the rest of the country's productivity. So the number shows up as a negative number. Truthfully, we were already seeing signs that the economy was slowing down. So I don't think people were surprised to see a lower number. But it's never a good sign to see a negative number, even if you do know that. It just means that so many people were importing more.
- [14:12]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, but there were a couple other numbers as well that seemed to be catching people's eye. So consumer spending slowed, rising only 1.8%, which is a very small increase. At the same time, there's all kinds of news reports about how the ports are starting to see the slowing down of imports from China really show up their numbers. Cargo volume is expected to be down, or it is down 35% at the port of Los Angeles from last year where nearly half of their business comes from China. All these institutions are putting out, well, cargo volume is going to be down 20% or 75%. There's all these predictions about how after this 145% on China went into effect, it is just massively slowed down trade with China, as you'd expect. Shocker. What did you make of those numbers?
- [14:56]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. This is the part that is real. This is the part that there is no denying that we're seeing the slowdown at the ports. You get all the reports from China of containers that aren't being loaded, aren't leaving. And we just hear more and more that we've got just a few weeks left before this has a major impact on what the holidays are going to look like in the US and the. The reduced number of dolls that will be available to children in America. Yes.
- [15:30]
Fred Nicholas
So that's kind of the macro down in our corner of the world, in the home world that you and I operate in, you're definitely seeing it. You're seeing it show up more and more. I saw the other day that this rating agency, S and P Global, had placed Visual Comfort on something called Credit Watch, negative due to a tariff risk. Now, that's not like some horrible negative report card for Visual Comfort, but what it indicated is simply that that because Visual Comfort obviously imports a lot from China, most lighting companies do, it was difficult for them to get out of the country and move to Vietnam. They will be negatively impacted by it. And there was a whole report about how basically they'll be under pressure because of tariffs. And I reached out to Visual Comfort. They declined to comment on it. But I will say that across the board, lighting companies in particular are raising prices. They kind of have to. And 145% just places such a burden on them that a lot of them are kind of frozen in place in a way. And that's very real.
- [16:24]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. And we've talked about in the past and even in our High Point recap show, we talked to a lot of companies at High Point that just said, listen, you can talk about moving some of your furniture production to Vietnam or Cambodia or wherever, but chances are if you're making lighting, there's just such a heavy concentration in China and there aren't a lot of options for you in the short term. And so that is the scramble for visual comfort. We saw this company, Rylo, announced that they were ceasing operations. I'm sensing that there might have been some other issues at play there as well. But certainly the tariff issue just made, again, a lot of the realities very stark for them. And I'm sorry to see that you see a lot of companies just coming out and saying, listen, we're going to have to raise prices. We're going to have to put a tariff item as a line item for what these things are going to cost. And it is really creating quite a challenge.
- [17:22]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah. And I mean, to the point about Rylo, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes for them and maybe other things, as you said. But I think the problem is that I'm not worried about visual comfort. To be clear, they have a lot of money, they're well capitalized. They're going to be able to get through whatever undulations there are in global trade. But if you're a small company and you rely on imports from China, that's a very different story. You don't have a ton of money in the bank to pay a tariff or to wait it out while the trade deal gets worked out. So it is really the kind of smaller companies in the industry that are most exposed to this. And as you said, and as we were talking about at the beginning, this is showing up for designers every day. I have not talked to a single designer who hasn't gotten endless notifications from vendors. At this point. They're getting pretty blunt. People are just saying, hey, here's the new price, here's the tariff charge. It is what it is. And I think that it's very real, even at the designer level.
- [18:12]
Dennis Scully
It's very meaningful to a lot of small businesses, which is why we're holding hopeful that this meeting that apparently is going to be taking place in Switzerland very soon with the treasury secretary and some of the Chinese representatives will lead to something meaningful. Because again, everyone is hopeful that these numbers come down dramatically. We can't move forward in a meaningful way with 145% tariffs against China. Moving on, let's talk about some earnings reports because we're bound to talk about tariffs in that conversation as well.
- [18:45]
Fred Nicholas
Fred, heavy on the macro economy. I apologize for all the nerd talk to our listeners. We'll do something fun next week. But in the meantime, Wayfair and Ethan Allen both released their results last week. Wayfair saw an increase in net revenue and narrowed its losses, while Ethan Allen's numbers ticked downward with a 2.5% drop in sales. Shall we start with Wayfair? What'd you make of the call? Dennis?
- [19:06]
Dennis Scully
Sure. And as you and I have joked in the past, we could be having the same Wayfair conversation that we have every quarter. And I say that, listen, listen, they are trying hard. They make it very clear on this call. They are pulling every lever that they can. They tried to pay off some debt that they had to lower the interest rates that they were paying. They're trying to keep overhead low. This is a company that continues to with more than a hundred million dollar loss in this quarter. That's most quarters. It's a very tough macro environment as we've just described. And, and this company, we assume that Wayfair has 30, 40, 50% of their product coming from China, if not more. They say they're not worried about it. They say that they have all sorts of other avenues to explore. But hard to believe that they're not dramatically impacted by what's happening with the China tariffs.
- [20:02]
Fred Nicholas
Well, you say that, but the CEO, Niraj Shah, what tariffs? Well, it was interesting though because like, first of all, one thing is that he said that the vendors had not really meaningfully raised prices. I have heard that at that mid and promotional level of the industry, that people are really trying to hold off meaningfully raising prices until Memorial Day. People are trying to hold out as long as they can. A lot of them stocked up in advance. It's possible that he's right and people haven't raised their prices yet. But I do think it's interesting because Wayfair, as Neeraj pointed out on the call, really is in a different position than a lot of companies because they've got so many vendors. There's a lot of competition to get your product on Wayfair and get the lowest price on Wayfair. So I do think he has a point that they aren't as exposed as the people who sell on Wayfair. Now the bigger question is just like, will overall demand go down? Will there be a recession? Because in that world, Wayfair doesn't do well no matter what.
- [20:59]
Dennis Scully
No. And I think your point is well taken. And he made the point that part of the dynamic at play there is that so much of their product is so easily substitutable.
- [21:11]
Fred Nicholas
There was something very arrogant about that.
- [21:13]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, I mean, it just again, and it speaks to. You're not buying brands as much on Wayfair as you're buying. Oh, I want this bar stool. I want it to be 150 bucks. And great, here you go. And so I think he acknowledges that that's the challenge with the low price point market. And that has always been the issue there.
- [21:35]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, maybe arrogant is the wrong word. It's just funny. If I was a seller on Wayfair and I listened to that call and heard the CEO being like, you know, everyone's product is totally replaceable. Like I'd feel a little hurt, maybe.
- [21:45]
Dennis Scully
Nir none of you are special. I just want to make that clear.
- [21:49]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, well, anyway, it was a fun call. I mean, obviously, as you can imagine, it was largely about tariffs. I was kind of bummed he didn't talk about Paragould because they're opening up two Paragould stores. I'm also curious to hear about how that Wayfarer inspected sticker thing that they're rolling out is working. But I guess we'll have to wait until next quarter. In the meantime, Ethan Allen, what were those numbers like for you?
- [22:08]
Dennis Scully
Dennis Similar story in that Ethan Allen talks about, oh, we've got so much cash on hand and don't worry and we've got such high profits. Profit margins this time around. Sales. Sales did drop by about 2.5% and the market reacted in a very uncharacteristically harsh manner. Ethan Allen's Shares fell about 11% after the numbers came out, which I have to think suggests that people were just on the wrong side of this. I don't know what anyone was expecting. I can't imagine that they were expecting a big uptick in that number. But it might just be that there was just nothing great to hang your hat on on this call other than the money that they have in the bank and the giant now over 6% dividend that they're paying out. Much to my deep consternation. Fred?
- [22:58]
Fred Nicholas
Well, yeah, Ethan Allen's an interesting company. It's funny if you look at the stock chart, not everything is in the stock market, of course, but if you look at the price of their stock, unlike a lot of companies in the furniture and home world, there's not these rapid swings up and down. It's a fairly even stock. So. So when it drops 11%, you're inclined to think something really meaningful happened. But as you pointed out, really this was a fairly typical quarter for them, albeit a down one. A couple of things that jumped out to me as we've talked about before. I do think that there's a widespread understanding that Ethan Allen probably needs to refresh its product a little bit, needs to get some new looks out there. Farooq Kathwari, the CEO, did mention that it was a little bit in passing, but. But I certainly think that that's on their mind as well. Maybe they should spend the dividend on that instead. But you know, that's my point.
- [23:46]
Dennis Scully
Fred, thank you. You making my point right there. Rather than all that money going out the door, I would Love to see some exciting new collaboration. I was thinking about spending time with Dae Kornbluth at West Elm and the exciting Pierce and Ward collaboration and just how much new energy that seems to have brought to that brand and how well that product is doing. And I just thought, wouldn't it be tremendous if Ethan Allen just came out with some stellar take the product in a whole different direction, show that there's some new energy and excitement coming out of that company and hold on to some of that cash that's going out the door.
- [24:25]
Fred Nicholas
Well, maybe that'll be next quarter. What's interesting about it too is that while obviously Wayfair imports a ton of product from China, Ethan Allen is actually not that exposed to overseas importing because they manufacture largely in the US and Mexico and in the Honduras, and they import fabric, of course, from, and they import some stuff from overseas, but they're really not a big tariff exposed company. So it's sort of interesting. It made me wonder, do analysts not really understand that or do they just don't like these numbers or what's going on here? Because of all the big furniture retailers, I would say Ethan Allen in theory is one of the least exposed to tariffs. Nonetheless, it seemed like Wall street didn't like what it heard. So I don't know, as you said, maybe it's more of a financial thing than an East Allen thing.
- [25:08]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. Although to your point, maybe, maybe some people don't understand their, their model because they're not nearly as to the tariff situation, but they are exposed to the fact that just it's housing.
- [25:21]
Fred Nicholas
Housing stinks.
- [25:22]
Dennis Scully
Tough to be selling furniture these days.
- [25:24]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, that's hard to get out of exposure from that in the furniture business.
- [25:28]
Dennis Scully
Yes, that message comes through loud and clear. I don't care what your dividend is. Moving on from that, we're going to talk about slow decor. Fred. This week for his Substack newsletter for Scale, journalist David Michon urged readers to to stop fetishizing speed and finality when it comes to interior design writing. There's absolutely no more worthy and important sensation in domestic decor than the rejection of an end point. It's never finished, Fred. That's David's message.
- [26:00]
Fred Nicholas
Endpoint in all caps, I might add. Yeah, this was just a fun letter and sort of exemplifies why for Scale, the Substack newsletter is so fun. It's like you go into it, it's about him staying at this modernist house in Palm Springs, but then it turns into a rumination on the nature of time. It's very heavy and philosophical, but also fun. Part of the reason to talk about it is just because it's fun and to recommend it. But I do think it's an interesting point because in the industry, and particularly designers, obviously the imperative from a client is get in and finish my house before Memorial Day or get in and finish my house before Thanksgiving and the project will be done and then my house will be exactly as it is forever. And I like that. And that's a designer's job on some level. But as we all know, your home evolves slowly over time and that's a good thing. You add things, you change things, you move things around, maybe much to the consternation of your designer. And I do think the point that your home reaches a state of finality, I think is a little bit. It's a wrong headed notion. And I think David kind of rightly and funnily points that out in this piece.
- [27:04]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I was thinking about a conversation I had had with a designer recently who talked about the fact that, that they actually focus on sort of this minimal installation. Sure, we'll get you a sofa and some chairs and so you can function in this space. But really we want you to make a lot of the decisions after you've lived here for a while, after you've started to get a sense of what this place really feels like, what speaks to you. And then hopefully you're going to go out and start to personalize it so much more through your travel, through your experiences. And that is such a different message than we often see, as in the much beloved, although clearly not by him, before and after shots that the industry sort of loves to share. And I love a good before and after, don't get me wrong. But I did take his point well.
- [27:58]
Fred Nicholas
You know, David's a bit of a provocateur, so he likes to poke the bear a little bit. Look, we all love before and afters. I think it's just there's no other way to experience what someone has done with their home. I think on some level, unless it's like a slow exposure video that lasts like 10 days or whatever. But I think even designers would agree that the layering that comes from a client living there from a long period of time is preferable, as long as it doesn't just turn into clutter or a mess. I think even designers would agree with that. I think it's just tough because as someone who recently moved into a new apartment, I would like for the evolution phase to be over because I still have boxes that are unpacked. And so you have to reach a resting state that's livable and feels comfortable. And I think just the economic realities of it. I think a lot of people hire a designer simply because they don't have time or really the aptitude to slowly evolve their home over time. I think this is really maybe more one for the heads and the people who are obsessed with their homes, as most designers are. I think most designers would agree that their own home are a constantly shifting laboratory. It's just that people pay them because the people who are paying them can't do that themselves.
- [29:06]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. And what was particularly fun about David's piece, and I encourage people to read it because I would love to hear from them on some other issues too, because he wasn't just taking a shot at the before and after images, he was also taking a shot at, wait for it, mid century modern. That's right.
- [29:24]
Fred Nicholas
Is nothing sacred, David?
- [29:27]
Dennis Scully
He feels like, come on, if ever something were frozen in time, it is mid century. And we've got to move on from nostalgia. And it sounded like some upcoming letters from David are going to get more into that attack, which I think will make for interesting conversation. But I do think he feels like he's fed up with quite a bit of what he sees in design today.
- [29:53]
Fred Nicholas
Lots of bears out there to book, just quickly to plug. I think David's. The new print issue of 4scale is coming out soon and I think he'll release. There's this design festival in New York, Shelter. We talked about it, I think a couple weeks ago, a couple months ago. That'll be part of Design Week. And I think David's going to be there. So if you're intrigued and you want to fight him on any of these points, by all means, head over to Shelter because he'll. He'll be there.
- [30:16]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. And I'd love to hear from designers about, about their take after they, after they read the piece and, and weigh in on some of these issues because there, there is a lot to discuss in there. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com calm, including a roundup of new hires across the industry and Sean Lowe's advice on dealing with budget fatigue. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. This season embraces the art of outdoor living. From sunlit porches to al fresco gatherings, Jaipor Living's curated collection of indoor outdoor rugs brings effortless style to every Open air moment designed to endure, crafted to elevate. These are the finishing touches for a summer well lived. Explore the collection@jporliving.com or followporliving on Instagram. Crate and Barrel wants to remind you to join the Crate and Barrel trade program. Your design projects deserve seamless execution. That's where their trade program excels. From initial concept to install, Crate and Barrel's knowledgeable team provides concierge level assembly assistance, product expertise and white glove delivery. Plus members Enjoy an exclusive 20% discount with no minimum purchase on beautiful high quality furniture and decor from Crate and Barrel, CB2 and Kraton Kids. For unmatched support and members only savings, join today@ CrateAndBerrel.com trademark and we're back. I'm joined now by the founder and executive chairman of the Expert, Leo Siegel. Leo, welcome back.
- [32:04]
Leo Siegel
Hey, thank you for having me again.
- [32:06]
Dennis Scully
Great to have you back. And the Expert has a newly appointed CEO, Leanne Blake. Leanne, welcome.
- [32:14]
Leanne Blake
Thanks. It's so good to be here.
- [32:15]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's great to have you and I'm so excited to hear all the things that brought you to the Expert. But lean Leo, let's catch listeners up a little bit before we dive into the conversation. So reminding people about the high end video consultation business that you brilliantly launched during COVID that everybody said, wish I had done that that moment. And then a couple of years back you and Jake came on to tell us about the evolution a little bit, the E commerce business that was growing inside of the X Expert. Tell us where in your mind things are at the moment.
- [32:54]
Leo Siegel
Yeah, it's crazy how many twists and turns there have been. It feels like just yesterday that we were launching and making friends with you and Fred during COVID I do feel like one of the reasons why we're back on the pod is that we've kind of finally figured out exactly what our product market fit is like you mentioned obviously, obviously our DNA is the high end video consultations and that is still just as important to us today. Two years ago we did launch our E Comm marketplace. We have about 200 vendors now. I think we're about 50 when we launched, so come a long way on that front. But I think the biggest transformation since we launched the E commerce platform a couple of years ago is a shift in focus. I think we built it with the end customer in mind, but I think over time and we can go into this more, it kind of organically unveiled itself that the real customer of our E commerce platform and the customer segment that we are investing the most in growing is really the design trade. So it's pretty full circle. We started with our top expert roster, and fast forward to today, and it's still the interior designer, front and center, just in a slightly different iteration.
- [34:22]
Dennis Scully
Well, and when did you first start to realize that, Leo? Because we've had this conversation that, oh, my goodness, of course, perhaps we should have realized that of course these designers were going to love everything that you were putting together and the level of product that you were bringing on the site. But when did that first start to show up and how did it make you rethink some of what you were, were doing?
- [34:42]
Leo Siegel
It wasn't really an overnight realization. I think it was pretty gradual throughout that first year of, of launching the marketplace. You know, obviously when you're a founder and you're launching a new product, you're stalking the, the back end admin and seeing every single order that comes through. And we're just like, oh, this one looks like a design firm. Oh, that one looks like a design firm. How interesting. Like, we don't even have a trade program. We're not even currently giving them a discount. Why are they doing this, this? And then I think just over the months, we just pieced together that, oh, wow, like the trade had cottoned on to our platform as just, you know, a shortcut to, to sourcing and procuring. And so just it. It took months and months for us to actually truly grab the bull by both horns and decide to actually build out a trade program and build out a, a product set that, that would work for the trade. But in addition to our investors who have a seat around the table, I know Nicole, our lead investor from FORA and has actually been on the podcast with you. They were pretty instrumental in helping us realize, wow, this is an amazing customer segment. These customers, even though you have not built any features specifically for them at the time, this Is back in 2023. Their repeat rate is so much higher. Their average order value is so much higher that there must be something here, here. But once we realized there was no getting that toothpaste back in the tube, we were dead set on building for the trade. And then Fast forward to 2024. We'd made our first trade specific hire. We actually. Sorry to First Dibs. We poached Olivia Black from First Dibs, who was kind of very involved with running and launching their trade program to become our VP of sales. And she really did architect a trade program that we're really proud of and started to actually roll out an actual trade program that we've been iterating on ever since. And that is really when I always say we've really found our product market fit. In 2024, when we rolled out, we call it Trade 2.0, which was an actual trade account and dashboard and feature set specifically built for the trade. And that is when we saw our numbers really kind of take off.
- [37:06]
Dennis Scully
Well, you know, the ever skeptical design community, Leo, when you first made the announcement that you were launching E Commerce, many in the design community thought, oh, there goes the business. Sure, open it up to the consumer, wreck it, ruin it, bring it down. And then it felt like it was just a beat or two before it was clear that it was actually a lot of the trade was doing a lot of the buying. And I want to get into that more. And interesting that you mentioned Nicole from For Runner, because I'm curious how she feels about it beyond just, gee, these designers, aren't they great customers? But also knowing how eager Forerunner is for this business to grow into a great big thing, I'm curious about that. Which brings us to you, Leanne. Yes. So before we even talk, Leanne, about the many things that you're going to do to grow this company, I'm curious what you knew of the Expert, how this first got on your radar. How did all of the this come about?
- [38:05]
Leanne Blake
I actually, I'm embarrassed to admit that I had not heard of the Expert. But as soon as I had.
- [38:11]
Dennis Scully
This is a safe zone, Leanne. Nothing's embarrassing.
- [38:15]
Leanne Blake
I'm not cool is really what that means, if we're being honest. But as soon as I connected with Leo and I started telling friends about the opportunity, 90% of the people said, oh, I love the Expert. I follow an expert on Instagram. And so they were very excited about me. And my first order of business, I actually booked before I spoke with Leo, I booked a consultation. So I said I want to, like, really try this product and love that experience. So I became a quick convert. My ignorance was gone quickly.
- [38:48]
Dennis Scully
Well, so. And did you actually bring a project? Did you have some space that you wanted help with to an Expert?
- [38:55]
Leanne Blake
Yeah, I think I was telling you I wanted to some help with my office that I'm sitting in right now. And I've now bought a desk, a rug, both recommended by the Expert. And I have seven samples of potential Roman shade fabrics hanging from my window.
- [39:15]
Dennis Scully
Excellent. Okay.
- [39:16]
Leanne Blake
But the funny thing is that you can get so much done in an hour that that took, I don't know, seven minutes. And then I started walking her around my house, house and my poor husband came home and I said, we need to move out. We're getting our entire house redesigned.
- [39:31]
Dennis Scully
I'm on with our new designer.
- [39:33]
Leanne Blake
And they the floor's too red, the kitchen's a nightmare. So we'll get there eventually.
- [39:40]
Dennis Scully
That's great. So tell us what you were doing at the time and a little bit about your background and history.
- [39:48]
Leanne Blake
Yeah, I was the chief growth officer at Babylist, which is a platform for growing families. And I had been there for about five years, helped grow it from less than $100 million in revenue to over 500. So really seeing kind of the scary word of scale there. But the interesting thing is we, and I think a lot of what Leo just alluded to is we did it all by focusing on the user and really, really understanding their needs. So it was not a scale at all cost company. We're actually profitable and really thoughtful in our scale and all of that. And we were always building tools and offerings for I think, a completely different consumer. I don't know if you can say that pregnant women and grandmas and aunts are at all related to interior design firms, but it was really about kind of how do we serve those users needs and thinking about how we can bring that to the expert. Already ready.
- [40:47]
Dennis Scully
In the design world, one of the challenges that companies run into with scaling is this relatively small number of what we assume is the total number of designers in the US and there's lots of disagreement about what that number is. For starters, some people think it's 50,000, some people think it's 90,000, but nobody thinks it's 2 million. And so that's one of the challenges that I'm curious about how you were thinking about it and what was appealing to you when you were thinking about what you could do for the expert.
- [41:25]
Leanne Blake
Yeah, I think maybe I shouldn't say this. I never thought about scaling the company in this, like, oh, I'm joining the expert as CEO to make this a unicorn or whatever they see in the VC world. I really thought like about what do the next couple years look like? Right. And so I thought really pragmatically about, you know, how many hundreds of firms are using the platform now. Oh, that's a pretty good amount. And how much are they spending? Wow, that AOV is pretty high. Like these are, these are, this is a high end luxury marketplace and these are emerging brands with amazing offerings. And if you help these firms spend a little bit more, discover some new products on the site and shop us a couple more times. That's actually a great business. My goal would be for the first thing that a lot of employees at these firms do every single day is go to the expert. Because when they type in the expert.com, they see, wow, that's a brand I've never heard of. Or, wow, look at that new couch from the Expert collection. Or let me make sure that my orders are on time, or let me wish list or favorite a few more things. And if you just super serve those people like, great, let's do that. And then we can talk about scale from there.
- [42:43]
Dennis Scully
Going back to the experience Leanne, that you had with the designer that you did the consultation with, tell me what then attracted you to this business and the design community in general, and what you, what you needed to hear from Leo to make you feel good about really coming over and wanting to make a change. Because it's always a big step, leaving something that it sounds like you've had a great deal of success with at the baby list, and it sounds like you grew it quite a bit. So what made you want to come and join the expert?
- [43:18]
Leanne Blake
The number one thing was the team I'm on. This is my first day of my fourth week today as I've gotten to know the team. They are, are passionate, intelligent, hardworking, incredibly kind, and they're industry experts. I have so much to learn. And we have people who've worked at design firms, we have a designer as a co founder. They know what they're talking about. So that was number one, and that continues to ring true. The second is I'm just really passionate about helping other entrepreneurs or people grow their business. Prior in my career, I helped helped at shopstyle grow an influencer platform. And there it was really helping mostly female solopreneurs grow their businesses. And think about a lot of them are kind of fashion bloggers. How to enable them to do what they do best, which is style themselves, pick out great products, create social content, et cetera. And we built a backend of tools and technology and monetization that just made their job easier. And so I saw that similarity with the Expert where I said, wow, there's these 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 design firms, mostly small businesses, creatives who do some things amazingly well and have some things that they don't want to spend their time on or that inefficient. And how can I help? Work with the team to build tools that just make their lives easier. And. And that's what got me really excited. I hope we are. And I think we can do more of that.
- [44:59]
Dennis Scully
Well, right, exactly. That's the hope. We hope we make their lives easier. And honestly, I mean, that's part of the challenge because so many designers have existing relationships with a lot of the trade brands. And so the question becomes how do you lure them? To the extent.
- [45:20]
Leo Siegel
Yeah, I think that you hit on a really good point and it's a big focus of ours. I think some designers who aren't necessarily educated on our offering assume that we're kind of trying to replace how design firms place orders with large established brands, most of whom they already have a relationship with and shop from. But in fact, our main focus from a merchandising and assortment perspective is like we're really focused on growing our assortment of new emerging brands, small makers, some of our biggest successes, bringing international brands into the fold that most of our trade firms would not even be able to logistically shop from. So we're really like our North Star is to be a huge value add addition to these firms, especially from a sourcing and procurement process perspective rather than just trying to like take business that they're already doing elsewhere.
- [46:32]
Dennis Scully
I hear it's a great time to be bringing international brands into the United States. So I mean, perfect timing on that it seems. But, but all joking aside to that point, how are you managing that in the, in the short term and how are you, how are you thinking about that? Assuming that every day we don't, we don't know what the policy is, how do you manage it?
- [46:56]
Leo Siegel
Fortunately, we don't really have any brands that are made in China at the moment. And I know China is the biggest pain point from, from a supply chain, chain perspective for companies at the moment. Our most popular line is our own expert collection and thank God that is all made here in la. So we have no kind of tariff complications on that front in terms of our international brands. And I would say we have most success with European brands and Australian. It's, it's kind of a, a situation where everyone's like, let's wait and see. If it's just 10%, then that's not necessarily going to be such an issue. But I do thank God every day that we're not, we don't have a Chinese supply chain. And I feel truly awful for those that do. There is nothing wrong with making anything in China. China. I was in fashion before and some of our best quality product was made in China. And I just think this is awful. But fortunately it's not affecting us too badly.
- [48:04]
Dennis Scully
No, no, It's a challenging time, to be sure, Leo, to the point that you were just making though, about updating us and me on what the showrooms side of the business really is. My recollection when it was first being launched was there were many designers who were experts on the site who were putting together collections, things that they loved, fabrics that they were putting on, vintage pieces that they had purchased. It seems like it's evolved quite a bit over time. So tell me where it is now and sort of what are the big drivers for the business?
- [48:45]
Leo Siegel
Well, those showrooms are still a huge driver and we're still just as if not more focused on scaling. I use the dreaded S word scaling, scaling in terms of, of letting all getting to a point where all of our experts, around 250 of them can have their own showroom and we've integrated their showrooms into, and this is a relatively recent product development, they've now integrated their showrooms into their consultation profiles so that when you're booking a consultation you can also see their product selections from our marketplace and obviously they get a commission on the. That that's still a key driver of our business. The only difference is we initially thought that those would mainly be for end consumers. Whereas now it's so interesting because the long tail of the trade whether, and we can argue over whether it's tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. I think what became clear to us is so many of our of our trade members do look up to and draw inspiration from our experts. So yeah, to answer your question, showrooms are still a huge, a huge driver. Another driver I would say is we have a really hands on, incredible sales team. These are all folks who have worked at showrooms. They come from within the industry, they know the pain points that interior designers are dealing with and they are laser focused on saving. Leanne spoke to it. Saving designers time. I would say the biggest pain point, if we had to sum it up in like a couple of words for interior designers, is they are time poor. And one kind of, you know, go to motto that we have is internally when we're talking about how to really save designers time, we always talk about how instead of a design firm needing to chase 10 quotes from 10 reps with 10 different trade applications and 10 tax forms and then managing 10 invoices and 10 orders across 10 platforms, you get one cart, one rep, one platform. The time saving really adds up. And that's not even to mention saving your inbox from 10 additional marketing emails and 10 additional trade reps. Following up for meetings, we always come back to that. We're just really trying to simplify the.
- [51:06]
Leanne Blake
Process and to build on that. What we're finding, what I think is really interesting is the advocate for us is often the 25 year old associate, associate or coordinator who's like, hey, I spend all my time doing those 10, 10, 10, 10, 10,. Whatever. Leo just said I could be so much more helpful with client communications or styling or something else if I could use the Expert. And just having that groundswell support from the doers every day, I think is very telling of what our offering actually is.
- [51:39]
Dennis Scully
Well, and Leo, you mentioned Jake Arnold earlier. And in the beginning, Jake was very front and center with the, with the Expert. And no doubt Jake bringing a lot of people on board gave a lot of designers. Many of them told me Jake Arnold reached out to me and I was so flattered that I said, of course I'll join your, whatever this startup is you're launching. And so it seemed like Jake played a huge role in being this wonderful brand ambassador and making a lot of people feel good about this whole, whole operation. What, what role do you have Jake playing today? How do you, how do you pimp him out for the, for the business in ways that, that are comfortable for him and, and knowing that he doesn't have a lot of time himself.
- [52:28]
Leo Siegel
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, fortunately we've grown a lot since then, so I do feel like, whereas we used to use Jake a little bit more like a crutch in the early days, we've grown in enough that I feel like the Expert brand is probably known even more widely at this stage than Jake himself.
- [52:47]
Dennis Scully
Wow. So that's nice. The Expert's now more famous than Jake Arnold. Listen to you.
- [52:52]
Leo Siegel
Okay, well, I'm not sure he would agree with that, but either way, I mean, yes, as you say, we still leverage Jake as our co founder in many ways. He's hosting a panel for Design LA at Apparatus Studio, all those kinds of things. But first and foremost, I mean, Jake is my best friend in the world, so I speak to him every single day. He's still very intimately involved, just a little bit more behind the scenes nowadays because like you say, he is time poor, so we're only going to trot him out if we really need to or for something really special. And other than that, it's a lot of behind the scenes. He's very involved with ideating his firm, are very active trade members. So given that he is such an active trade member himself, we're always getting amazing Feedback from his team. They're always the first guinea pig for any new feature that we have or any new brand that we're rolling out. So that's really nice as well, to have his firm and everyone at his firm shopping on the site.
- [53:58]
Dennis Scully
No, no. And that makes a lot of sense, obviously. And as you say, the Expert can stand on its own a lot more than it could a few years ago. And interestingly, and Leo, you and I have talked about this a lot in the past. The weight, the gravitas of all of the experts that you have on the expert platform. And many of the designers that I speak to are finding it quite useful to be regularly scheduling consultations. And it's a meaningful revenue stream for a lot of designers. And so that has grown into part of the association that I think a lot of people make with the Expert is all of these wonderful designers that are on the platform and the goodwill that people feel towards them. Has that been a key component in your mind of what has helped the E Comm side of the business to grow? And do you feel that that's a tremendous advantage that you've had that some of these other E commerce businesses that just haven't worked out for a host of reasons, some of which I touched on earlier.
- [55:07]
Leo Siegel
Do you want to be our publicist? Because you're delivering the message better than I ever did.
- [55:12]
Dennis Scully
I feel I could be. I feel I could be.
- [55:15]
Leo Siegel
Well, you put it exactly right. I think that our special source really is our incredible roster of talent. Leanne spoke to it. We are not a company of scale at all costs. We want to grow, of course, but we always want to grow through the lens of what is best for the design community at large. But if you distill it, what is best for our expert community? Many of our expert community are, if not most, are active trade members. So I think protecting that roster, the integrity of the roster, is everything to us. And I think that, yes, of course, the brand reputation that we have built by having this caliber of talent is what has enabled us to gain the trust of so many in the trade. And so we never want to do anything to betray that trust or to, you know, to, to move away from, from, from those roots. And that is why we are as rigorous as ever in our criteria to become an expert.
- [56:17]
Dennis Scully
Oh, look at you walking right into my next question for you. You. Yes, go, go ahead. Because you've only got, what do you have? 250 people on there and there's tens of thousands of designers. And I understand the Lengthy waiting list. And a lot of designers, Leo, seem to be taking it quite personally that they haven't been accepted as an expert on the expert, despite being very well known in the industry. So go ahead, break people's hearts and tell us what the criteria is to get on this darn site of yours. What's a designer gotta do?
- [56:50]
Leo Siegel
So, first and foremost, we do not see ourselves or claim to be the arbiter of who is a worthy or incredibly talented trade firm. We know that there are so, so, so many firms out there that are more than qualified and skilled enough and talented enough and experienced enough to be part of the roster. The problem is, if we want to continue to deliver on our level of service, not just to clients clients, but to the experts that we serve, we have to keep it incredibly curated. We're not trying to say you're good enough or you're not good enough. So much of our criteria is like, does this fill a gap in our roster? We do, I will say, our membership, even though we're adding very few new designers, just because we do want to keep it curated and we want to keep our level of service at its best. Our membership team are always on the lookout for, for new, rising talent, whether it's keeping an eye on Architectural Digest or various industry lists. We do still put the feelers out and we still do approach various designers that we feel are particularly special and that we would feel make a great addition to our roster. We do, as you spoke, to have thousands of designers that have reached out to us that have asked to be on the platform that unfortunately, even though we would love to, we can cannot serve everyone. And so when we're reviewing inbound interest, we did make the business decision that it makes the most sense. Given that it is a pool of thousands for a couple of spots a month, it makes the most sense for us to focus on our highly active trade members. We feel that there is such immense talent in that group that to give priority consideration to those who are supporting our business, still a small business, let's be real. It means a lot to us, and so we would love to give them priority consideration, but it is absolutely not a strict criteria for being invited onto the platform at all. I know that there's been kind of rumblings that maybe we're like, pay to play and that it's like quid pro quo.
- [59:07]
Dennis Scully
I've heard them.
- [59:07]
Leo Siegel
Well, I need to push back on that a little bit because I think that implies. That implies that you can spend a certain amount to be on the platform, we simply would never do that. I mean, that would be a surefire way to just like dilute the quality of talent on our platform. And I can tell you that even though we may give priority consideration to those who are high spenders on the site, when looking at our rigorous criteria, if that does not apply to your firm, you can spend $5 million on the site tomorrow. And you're not just getting a spot on the platform because again, we're in this for the long term. We prioritize longevity over quick growth. And the moment that we are no longer the expert, I think that is where you can go really wrong and that's where maybe other companies have gone wrong. When you compromise what makes you special in order to chase the short term dollars, you're not going to be around. Intense. And we want to be around in 10 years. We want to be around in 20 years.
- [60:11]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. I mean, especially since Lianne left her other job. Right. And she got, I mean, you know, she's taking a big leap here. Of course you want to be around. But to put a bow on the waiting list and the whole pay to play issue. To your point, tell me. So with only bringing on one new.
- [60:31]
Leo Siegel
Expert a month, one to three.
- [60:35]
Dennis Scully
So to your point, what does that tell us about how you think about that side of the, of the business and what it represents?
- [60:46]
Leo Siegel
Yeah, I think that side of the business really is, it's our brand, really. It's experts drive the whole flywheel. I think that experts are the top of the funnel, essentially. They are promoting their consultations, they're bringing traffic to their page, to our site in general, introducing a lot of, a lot of folks who are not familiar with our brand, to our brand. In a way. There are our spokespeople, not necessarily for our E commerce offering, but just for our brand in general. We've started some really exciting initiatives with our experts. For example, we have a new monthly office hours with one of our top experts that our trade program have access to last month was Molly Kidd, formerly of Leighton Dwell, who did an incredible session on Social Media 101 and how to build your social media following. This month we have Zoe Feldman giving a masterclass on AI how to use AI to improve your business operations. You cannot separate experts from our business. It's just, it's, it's truly our lifeblood.
- [61:54]
Dennis Scully
Leanne, a lot of experience with, with AI. Can you, can you imagine a lot of areas where AI could be helpful in your new role with growing the expert?
- [62:05]
Leanne Blake
Maybe you'll hear about this at an upcoming expert office hours, if you're a trade member. How can I actually use AI to grow my business? And they know about it at a high level, like ChatGPT sounds interesting, da da, da. But what is the actual pragmatic way to integrate that? And so that's what we're trying to help designers learn about. Maybe like sneak peek. It's not replacing them. Right. We're saying we want to help you use AI to free up your time. So can we build tools for them that's going to help them make invoices more quickly or streamline procurement or get updated pricing or there's just so many really tactical small ways that we think we can again take work off their plate, make them less time poor so that they can do the creative work. So we're buzzing on some ideas, we're talking to designers about the work that they want to do. And we're just going to build some, I think, kind of cool things to help make their lives easier that does.
- [63:08]
Leo Siegel
Not involve designing with AI.
- [63:11]
Leanne Blake
Yeah, exactly. That's their expertise, that's what they're so good at and that's their creative message magic. And so let them do more of that and we'll do kind of the grunt admin, admin work for them.
- [63:26]
Dennis Scully
From the experience that you have had and when you think about what you've learned that you imagine being able to bring to this company, what makes you the most excited when you think blue sky, what you could do do with a company like this?
- [63:47]
Leanne Blake
I want us to be the destination for everyone at an interior design firm and vendors that they check every single day. So I think that's the dream. Now I want to talk about Vegas. So, okay, I've got a story about if you were building a rewards program for a hotel, a casino in Vegas, and this is a real story, you would think about what people want. And like, do you want to check in early? You want upgrades to room? You might want some free rooms. And we've got all that and we're getting all that. And then there was this hotel that was trying to figure out what people really wanted. And so they were asking their most loyal customers, what's the biggest pain point you have? Do you know what it was, Leo? Do you have a guess? What's the hardest thing about your life when you're high roller in Vegas?
- [64:37]
Leo Siegel
I want to win more often because I'm always losing.
- [64:41]
Leanne Blake
Okay, maybe Dennis.
- [64:42]
Dennis Scully
Well, so for me, when I'm there, I mean, there are no windows, there's no light I have no idea what time it is, which is what they want, right? And so you're a little thrown off, and they never want you to know sort of where you are and what you're doing.
- [64:57]
Leanne Blake
Okay, so that's close. What these high rollers wanted was a reserved chair by the pool because they were up all night, some of them having a good time. And by the time they got to the pool, there were no chairs, there were no cabanas, Right? So they said, oh, that's what we're going to do. If you're the highest tier loyalty member, we're going to reserve seats by the pool. And that's the coolest offering because, like, you save them time. It's prestigious. You're in this, like, great little section. You're building this community around the high roll, and it costs the casinos no money. I don't know what the expert seat by the pool is. I don't know what it is that these design firms want or this pain point that they have. I don't know if it's an AI tool. I don't know if it's dinners, I don't know if it's events, but there's something that this industry needs that's just going to make them happier, and we're.
- [65:50]
Leo Siegel
Committed to figuring it out, and we.
- [65:52]
Leanne Blake
Got to figure it out. And I don't know, maybe, you know, Dennis, and you can tell Leo and I after this call, but I think there's something really special can bring to these firms that make them a little bit happier and maybe a little more money. That's my dream, is to bring them that and then help grow the expert along with them.
- [66:08]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I don't know. I'll be so curious to see what comes of that. Leanne, congratulations on the new job. Can't wait to see all you do. And, Leo, I know this is a huge weight off your mind that Leanne is finally here, so congrats on that, and I'm excited to see all that's coming next for the Experts. So thanks for. For being here.
- [66:28]
Leanne Blake
Thanks so much for having me.
- [66:30]
Leo Siegel
Thank you so much for having us.
- [66:37]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [66:45]
Fred Nicholas
The New Yorker caught my eye and my ire because the, you know, illustrious magazine, one of probably my favorite magic magazine, to be honest, published this, like, really fun feature on, like, the living rooms of famous New Yorkers. And I gotta say, just leave. You've got your great essays, wonderful deep dives into the wide world. Leave us our beautiful pictures of people's living rooms. But it was a really fun feature of the New Yorker, looking at like, you know, notable New Yorkers. The very first one was Anna Delvey, famous con artist and what her living room looks like. And she had a Jonathan Adler sofa, which I thought was funny. I was dming with Jonathan Adler about that and he got a kick out of it as well. So that was just a fun article. Also in Media News, Dan Rubenstein, fellow podcaster who talks a lot of people in the design world and just general creatives. He has a podcast called the Grand Tourist. And now he has a print magazine, the Grand Tourist, print edition, I think is debuting, maybe even today. Unfortunately, I'm not able to to go to the party, but I wanted to shout it out because Dan has built like a really cool media business, talking to notables as we do here, and it's cool that he's getting into a new medium. Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [67:56]
Dennis Scully
A couple of things that I wanted to make people aware of. One was the upcoming sale at Chelsea Textiles, which is always a fun event. It's going to be online starting on May 20, and Chelsea Textiles is just about to open their brand new showroom, actually just moving floors in the building that they're in. But their sale always draws many designers and I'm always hoping to score a fun kit Kemp design throw pillow myself. But the other thing that caught my eye was there's a, there's a company that's been around for about 50 years. It's a, it's a rug and, and stair runner company that is much beloved called Woodard Weave. And interestingly, they were just about to close operations. They had announced when, when a white knight showed up and it turned out to be none other than David Netto. So David Netto is going to be acquiring that operation and perhaps we'll talk with David Netto in the future and hear more about his plans there. But I was happy to see that company saved at the 11th.
- [69:02]
Fred Nicholas
Writer, designer, now entrepreneur. I love it.
- [69:05]
Dennis Scully
Yes, indeed. So I'm glad to see him have his hand in this operation and as I say, I, I hope that we'll get a chance to talk to him about it in the future. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop. Visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show. Write to us at podcast@businessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.