← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: The Supreme Court overturns Trump's tariffs. Plus: John Edelman on his new mission at Haworth
01:08:23
Host Dennis Scully, BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus and associate editor Caroline Bourque discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, John Edelman joins the show to discuss his new role at Haworth.
Loading summary
Transcript203 lines
- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with John Edelman about his big new role at Haworth. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including the Supreme Court's tariff ruling, highlights from kbis, and a Taylor Swift textile trademark dispute. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nick Laut. Hi, Fred.
- [00:33]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.
- [00:35]
A
How you doing?
- [00:36]
B
I'm doing great. I want to commend you for getting through that tongue twister there, Taylor.
- [00:40]
A
See how I did that trademark.
- [00:42]
B
I can't do it. I don't have that Scully skill. That was a gold medal performance is what that was.
- [00:49]
A
That is my version of sticking the landing. There you go.
- [00:51]
B
Exactly. Well, I cannot wait to talk Taylor Swift with you later along with a special guest we'll be introducing later. But in the meantime, let's look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with beloved design editor Wendy Goodman and one of my favorite recurring guests we've had on the show. Love hearing from Wendy.
- [01:07]
A
I agree. It was so fun to have her back. It was a bit of a catch up episode and a wide ranging conversation about many things that are happening in the home world, in the media world. And always so interesting to hear her perspective, don't you think?
- [01:23]
B
Yeah. And I mean, there were definitely like business takeaways that designers can get from that about publishing and their own firm. But certainly I was there for the Conde Nast gossip. There was this whole breakdown of the body line language of the conversation between Anna Wintour and Vogue's new editor, Chloe Moll. And I think a lot of our listeners will be interested in that, you know, little break from the tariffs to get into some Anna Wintour body language. I love that.
- [01:49]
A
Absolutely. I would encourage everyone, if they haven't already, to go online and watch the interview with Chloe Mahl and Anna Wintour that the New York Times did and you can see the painful body language for yourself. And then you'll understand the conversation with Wendy, who worked for Anna Wintour very early on in her care. Anyway, it was, it was a really fun conversation and I know that people enjoyed it because I got lots of fun notes about it. So I appreciate that. If you haven't listened to it yet, I hope you do enjoy it. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.
- [02:26]
C
This podcast is proudly sponsored by Morrison Co. Step into a story 164 years in the making. Morris Co. Has collaborated with the Huntington in California to unveil a remarkable new collection featuring 26 brand new wallpaper and fabric designs created from unfinished sketches by William Morris and his contemporaries. Using original incomplete artwork that has been tucked away for more than a century, The Morris Co. Design studio faithfully finished these historic sketches, transforming them into designs crafted for today, but deeply rooted in Morris's creative vision.
- [03:07]
A
Discover this brand new chapter in Morris
- [03:09]
C
and company's story on wmorrisandco.com this podcast is sponsored by Laloy. Behind every Laloy rug is a web of people woven together. What began as a small family business in Dallas, Texas in 2004 has grown to a family of over 750 employees who help bring their rugs, pillows and wall art to life. Their work is inspired by the quiet conviction that things made well have the power to provide comfort for generations. Learn more@laloirugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow laloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok.
- [04:01]
A
And we're back. Fred we finally thought we were going to get away from tariffs, but no, it's going to be the entire show.
- [04:08]
B
Just when you thought it was safe to listen to the Thursday show again, here we are. Last week, the Supreme Court struck down President Trump's sweeping global tariffs, ruling that the trade policies were in violation of U.S. law. And this was actually your prediction for the year. And I think I maybe sort of jumped on the back of that prediction, but a lot of people were thinking this is going to happen. But there's a difference between thinking it's going to happen and, and it actually happening. This was a huge news bombshell on Friday. Where were you when the, when the tariffs were ruled illegal and how long
- [04:40]
A
before you and I were Both bombarded with DMs and communications from around the industry? It was mere moments as everyone couldn't wait to hear the response. Exactly. Where were we? Something we'll remember always. You think that, oh, we knew this was going to happen. And then the news hits and we, we have little clarity around a great many things.
- [05:03]
B
I know. Here we are almost a week later and I'd love to have great answers for all this, but it's still getting worked out. So just to kind of break down what happened, you know, there was this case before the Supreme Court among a certain group of tariffs that President Trump implemented under something called ipa, which is my, my favoritely named law because it's the noise that you make when you hear about the tariffs. Anyway, these were the global tariffs on countries around the world, like the tariff on India, the tariff on, you know, the UK the tar, Afghanistan, Pakistan. These were all under aipa. And basically there was a lawsuit that was working its way through the court system that's saying this law doesn't actually give the president power to do these things. And in fact, the word tariff is not in that law. So that was not a stretch to bring this in front of the Supreme Court. And we heard arguments last November. It seemed like the justices were skeptical of the president's claims. And lo and behold, they have ruled that this law from 1977 does not give Trump the power to enact these global tariffs. So they are now illegal. So that pulls down all of these kind of random tariffs that have been lowered on countries all over the globe. There's just a lot of complication from here. I don't even know where to start. What's the first most complicated thing we should get into, Dennis?
- [06:15]
A
Well, right, as you say, I mean, it's important to point out that there's a whole array of tariffs that are still very much in place.
- [06:22]
B
Yes.
- [06:23]
A
So for everybody who thought this was magically going to make all tariffs everywhere go away, au contraire, many of them, in fact, many of them that most impact the home industry remain in place.
- [06:35]
B
Yes. So the tariffs that were enacted on, like, all imported upholstery, kitchen cabinets and vanities, those are still in place. They were done under a different law. This case does not affect them. A lot of the tariffs that cover materials like steel and aluminum are still in effect. And, you know, as you said, a lot of those are really the ones that matter for a lot of importers in our world. So certainly this doesn't change the landscape for them overnight. So that's one thing to keep in mind. The other thing is it's sort of wonky. But the tariffs were used as leverage to make all these trade deals. Like we have a trade deal with India and a trade deal with Vietnam, and those deals are still in place, even though the tariff that was underpinning them is now illegal. So just because the Supreme Court ruled these tariffs illegal doesn't make the deals illegal. So a lot of the tariffs that are in place on Vietnam are still technically in place. Now, they may be renegotiated, but this change is maybe less, you know, than you'd think seeing the headlines, but it is still, I mean, it is a big, sweeping change. And, you know, one thing the President did immediately was, I wouldn't say lash out, but immediately, you know, lowered a new global tariff on countries around the world of 10%. He said he wants to raise that to 15%. By the time you hear this show, it might be 15%. So that's kind of the new tariff hotness. The weird angle there, though, is that those tariffs only will last 150 days. There are total different obscure law. And so there's a lot of confusion about what everyone's actually gonna pay when their stuff arrives at customs.
- [08:00]
A
Well, exactly. And so again, if you thought that all of this was gonna lead to greater clarity, unfortunately, it's just as confusing as ever, because, as you say, knee jerk. He announced a 10% tariff. Then later, upon careful consideration, no doubt a 15% tariff. And really, more than anything, it was interesting to see how many people thought, oh, perhaps the administration will just take the win and say, oh, well, we tried. The Supreme Court struck it down. We'll, we'll move on from tariffs. I don't really know who thought that,
- [08:34]
B
Fred, because people who had never met another human being thought that. Yes.
- [08:39]
A
Don't think anyone who was paying attention to this thought that he would move away from tariffs. Nay, nay. I think he's looking under every stone to find the word tariff anywhere else that he can apply. So, I mean, I. I think we're far from having this resolved. Many companies seem eager to want to get refunds now that they've declared all of this, but that doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon either.
- [09:04]
B
Well, yeah, let's talk about kind of the industry reaction to this. And there's sort of two threads to pull on here. First, let's talk about the refund. So, you know, technically, because the tariffs are illegal, they were collected illegally, and now the government could potentially be liable to pay all that 130/plus billion dollars back. The problem is I don't think they're going to be. That's not on their menu to voluntarily do that. So I suspect if refunds are going to be given, they're going to be given out through lawsuits. And there's actually, there's over a thousand companies have already sued for lawsuits. I think we talked about this on Thursday show once, but McGee and company, Sid and Shay. McGee's company has preemptively sued the government. So it's possible that you'll see some of that money flow back into companies that sue and certainly more are now going to sue now that this decision has been made. But it's far from clear, like, whether that refund money will come in, when it'll come in, whether the companies who collect it will then in turn be sued by their customers because they raised their prices. So that's a big mess. And I don't think we're gonna know how that's gonna pan out, certainly for months at the very earliest. The other side of it is I'm getting the reaction from a lot of executives that I talk to just that they think this is kind of all for show and Trump's gonna find a new way to charge the same tariffs. Kind of like a cynical take. What do you make of that? Do you think that's the case? What's your read?
- [10:16]
A
I think, and I've had similar conversations with people, I think it shows how beaten down or worn out everybody is by this whole thing. And I think they just feel defeated that, oh, even though the Supreme Court struck this down and there was this moment of celebration that lasted all of 15 seconds and people popped champagne and then realized nothing fundamentally is going to change here, it's going to get, in fact, more complicated. And I was thinking about, oh, go into High Point, and we're not gonna have to talk about tariffs. But I think people just don't imagine this is going away in a meaningful way.
- [10:55]
B
Yeah, one of the first people I spoke to said, oh, they'll appeal this decision. I was like, no, there is nowhere to appeal it to. The Supreme Court is the very top ceiling. But, yeah, I think that attitude definitely is prevailing. The sense that they'll just find some way to charge me the same amount of money. I will say, though, look, the new 15% global tariffs that may or may not be in place by the time this podcast goes out, they have a shelf life. They're only good for 150 days, at which point Congress has to approve them, otherwise they go away. And I think we both know Congress is not going to approve this tariff. So that gives the president sort of somewhat limited options. There's other laws, but they all require investigations. You know, yes, they'll look for ways to charge more tariffs, but this sets a precedent. And, you know, the tariffs that exist on upholstery and, you know, on vanities and imported kitchen cabinetry may be challenged as well, legally in front of the Supreme Court. And, you know, given that they ruled, you know, this way on this law, that means they might rule the same way on another law. So I understand the cynicism, and I wouldn't discount it. I certainly think, you know, Trump is, you know, determined to charge tariffs, but I do think this is a significant moment and we may be having a different conversation six months from now. I think some of the cynicism may be a little more knee jerk than, you know, forward looking, but I don't know, again, time will tell on that.
- [12:09]
A
No, no, I agree and I think you're absolutely right. I think tonally what is different here, as you say, the new tariffs that he can impose can only extend for 150 days. And then Congress has to take action. And what's, but what's abundantly clear is Congress is unwilling to do that. And by the time 150 days have passed, we're going to be even closer still than we are now to the midterm elections. And I think the midterms are going to set the tone for a lot of what happens next. So I think that's going to be a big factor in all of this. And not to get into the politics of it all, but I think this was a big reminder too that for all of the back and forth about, oh, are tariffs really taxes and all that, I think the Supreme Court came down and pretty much said, yes, they are and that's Congress's job. And so I think that does change the dynamic quite a bit.
- [13:04]
B
Yeah. And I mean, one final thing here before we, before we lose all of our listeners to tariff talk, I just think just immediately I would not expect any vendor prices to come down radically in the short term because even though, you know, the global tariffs have come off, there's this new tariff to contend with, there's a lot of uncertainty, no one really knows what they're going to get charged at the port. So I think in the very short term, I would not expect to see any prices go down. In the long term, I think if people have already raised their prices, they'll keep them up. But the tariff surcharge thing is going to be a really interesting issue and we'll probably talk about it again next week or the week after.
- [13:36]
A
Absolutely. So while we thought we might be delivering a joyful message around all of this that tariffs are going away, in fact the opposite message is what we want to give people, that they're not going away, you're not getting your money back and prices probably aren't going down.
- [13:50]
B
It's not that dour.
- [13:52]
A
So there you go, burst the bubble of everyone who was excited about this. And to think they were waiting for us to talk about this. They were excited, they thought we were going to give them good news. Sadly, not so now we have to move on to I don't know is good news in this segment. I'm not sure we're going to move on and we're going to talk about the stock market because the past few weeks have seen earnings reports from a variety of home industry companies like Wayfair, Home Depot and Lowe's. And the reaction on Wall street has been, well, mixed, to put it mildly.
- [14:22]
B
Fred, should we just jump ahead to Taylor Swift? I think that's kind of what you're
- [14:26]
A
can't we just talk about Taylor?
- [14:27]
B
Come on. Exactly. Well, let's start with Wayfair. Their sales grew 6.9% for the quarter to a mere $3.34 billion. That beat expectations. But some of the metrics were down. Its active customer count was down. Once again, it was not profitable. It rarely is. And there were some debt payments. Even though Wayfair trumpeted this as good news and there were a lot of headlines about how they had beaten market, the stock took a nosedive. It seems like traders really do not like what's happening at Wayfair. So why don't you can you decode what's going on for us? Dennis?
- [15:00]
A
Well, there's a lot going on and we have to start by reminding people that Wayfair stock, after all of the tariffs were announced and there was all the drama last year in the market, Wayfair stock had fallen all the way to about $20 a share and then subsequently rallied all the way up to about $120 a share. So a massive multi hundred percent rally in the shares. And so the stock got way oversold. And then conversely, many would argue, looking at today's price, it got wildly overbought. So lots of enthusiasm. And listen, there are a lot of good things happening within Wayfair, but they're not happening perhaps at nearly the clip that that huge surge in the shares would suggest. So Wayfair shares have fallen, but also Wayfair, Wayfair just goes through a lot of money. And so that's the other issue that people are always concerned about with Wayfair.
- [15:58]
B
So it sounds like there's kind of like a lot of Wall street shenanigans going on that's driving the price up and down. What about the actual company? So I listened to the earnings call, as always. Niraj Shah, the CEO, is very upbeat. There was a lot of AI talk which was interesting. I'm not always sure exactly how real it all is, but they seem very serious about it. They also mentioned Paragould, which we always love to count those. I think it's been about 10 times in the, in the past five years that they mentioned it. But so what, what jumped out at you from like what's actually happening within the business? Let's leave Wall street alone for a second.
- [16:32]
A
Well, I think within the business and, and yes, I want to leave Wall street alone, but one of the things that Wall street is anxious about these days is companies that are actually spending a lot more on physical spaces. And this is something that, that Wayfair has said they're going to be doing too. Guess what? We are going to be opening new stores. And I know we've always poked fun and said that they, they don't open stores rapidly. It's not like they're announcing 100 stores will open, but they are opening several new stores and their stores are quite large. So they will be investing in that. And the truth is the store that they've opened and the Paragould location that they've opened seems to be helping them a great deal from a marketing perspective and from just a brand awareness perspective. So I think they're feeling very positive about stores and expansion. But we know that that will require capital. So I think underneath the surface, interestingly, they also talked about their membership reward program. That's actually got a lot of traction. They announced that at the end of 2024, and it seems like a million people have signed up for that. So good for them. They also suggest that, of course, margins might get hit as they make possible some discount structures within that. But listen, they're showing increases in revenue where they can in one of the most challenging housing markets, as Gary Friedman constantly reminds us.
- [17:53]
B
Was it 100 years now?
- [17:54]
A
Exactly 150 years. What? Yeah. So, I mean, they're honestly, usually I give them a hard time, but I feel like in this report, you can see they're doing the best they can.
- [18:05]
B
It is funny that it's. For all the AI talk like the big strategy is let's open stores. It's this. Let's recreate the business that we disrupted in the first place. But I mean, it seems to be working. You mentioned the rewards program. They talked about bringing that over to Paragould so that that might be an investment in a bigger trade program for Paragould. I don't know. It's funny you mentioned that Wall street is sort of, you know, cagey about these big physical investments. This is maybe a bit of a tangent, but there is this thing that's kind of coming out that I've been reading about with Fascination recently called the Halo Trade, which is that there's so much AI news. Everyone thinks that AI is going to replace every software company under the sun. So investors are looking for companies that are AI proof. And the acronym they have is was it heavy assets, low obsolescence? Have I got that right?
- [18:50]
A
Exactly.
- [18:51]
B
So they're looking for like John Deere or like companies that own big stuff that AI can't get rid of. And I couldn't help but thinking, reading all that like, does that mean Bassett Furniture is going to see a like. I mean, come on, you know, like, furniture is very difficult to replace with AI.
- [19:05]
A
We joke, but I think we are very much in that moment where Wall street is looking around and saying what can't easily be replaced by AI Podcast. And it turns out it's the Quarter Pounder with cheese and, and Coca Cola and John Deere tractors and Caterpillar Earth movers. And listen, they've been leaning heavily into FedEx and UPS, good old fashioned delivery services.
- [19:31]
B
Where's Leggett and Platt? Why can't they benefit from this?
- [19:35]
A
It is a trend that is afoot and I think you would think it would be helping the furniture industry, but we'll see.
- [19:42]
B
Well, let's lastly dip our toes into the home improvement twins, Home Depot and Lowe's. Now, these are stocks we normally look at to see, well, what's the future going to be? Because the idea is if they're doing well, in six months, people are going to buy all the furniture they need to fill their homes that they're renovating right now. You know, they both had decent quarters. Home Depot did 38.2 billion this last quarter, which is a slight decrease, but certainly not a bad number. Lowe's went up with 20.58 billion, but neither earnings call seemed to be that celebratory. There was very little, you know, there were few signs of, oh, spring is going to be the best housing market. They did not get our memo about the fact that the, the snow ending was a sign of good things to come. What, what was your reaction to these calls?
- [20:22]
A
They're not on the positive thaw program that we were on. I don't, obviously they haven't heard Leonard Steinberg, but we talk about this consistently. Both of these companies are incredible operators, two of the best businesses in the land and they know how to manage costs and they've managed tariffs brilliantly. But both of them say, listen, I wish that we could tell you that we're seeing all sorts of green shoots or all sorts of signs that the housing market is moving. It Just shows you how much spending Americans have to do even when they're not selling their homes in great numbers. I mean, because these companies do massive business and both of them are leaning very heavily into what they call the pro market. So they're both going after the contractors and the builders. Home Depot has a good big head start there. That's a huge part of their business. But even Lowe's, which was much more of a consumer driven business, is focusing more and more on that professional business because that's just where the business is these days. But certainly nothing to get you overly excited on either of those earnings calls about how bright the future looks. And truthfully, they really don't have any clarity. And the Supreme Court decision I think impacts them less than does the change in the housing market. So I don't think they've been, again, remarkably that impacted by tariffs. I think they're much more impacted by when the heck are people gonna start selling homes in a big way and fixing up their spaces.
- [21:55]
B
Yeah, I did see some headline about how the 30 year fixed rate mortgage dipped to like 5.99% for like 3 seconds at midnight or something like that. So maybe if it can stay down below that for longer than an episode of Bluey, we'll be in good at the moment. Yeah, it does seem like it's still a continuing freeze.
- [22:15]
A
Again, we're looking for more good news to deliver, but we just can't do it in that segment. Perhaps the good news will come from our next segment about kbis.
- [22:23]
B
Yes, the annual kitchen and bath industry show took place in Orlando last week. Several BOH team members flew out to walk the show, including. Drumroll, please. Producer Caroline Burke, who's gonna make her Thursday show debut to talk about it. Normally she's behind the boards, but now she's stepping in front of the microphone. Hi, Caroline. Welcome. Hi.
- [22:42]
D
Thanks for having me.
- [22:43]
A
Delighted to have you on the show, Caroline. Listeners might not know, but Caroline is one of the hardest working staffers at boh. So we're delighted that she could take a break from helping us produce this very show and tell us about her time at kbis. So, Caroline, let's start by telling people, even though I'm sure men in the industry know and probably many were There, what is KBIs? What is this giant show?
- [23:08]
D
Yeah, so KVIZ is the kitchen and bath industry show. So it takes place every year in either Las Vegas or Orlando. This was actually the last year it will be in Orlando. So it'll be in Vegas from now on. But yeah, it's held alongside the International Builders show this year. There were more than 100,000 visitors, over 2,000 vendors. And, yeah, it's a great place for designers to see the latest product debuts. And appliance, stone, cabinetry, tile, all of the kitchen and bath categories.
- [23:41]
A
And were there some big takeaways from the show? I've been reading a lot about invisible kitchens and other things. I'm not even sure what that means, so you'll have to tell me. But what were some of the big things that stuck out to you?
- [23:53]
D
Yeah, definitely. So that kind of tied into this concept we were hearing about called. Called borderless design. And it was sort of this concept of creating spaces, kitchens in particular, that sort of hid any sort of external handles or knobs or burners or decorative touches. And there were some really creative ways that brands did that. So one was Cosentino partnered with this brand called Invisicook to display this induction cooktop that can actually be embedded within their duckton surfaces. So you can place like a pot or a pan directly on the stone and just cook from there without any visible burners or anything.
- [24:38]
B
I find that unsettling, I have to say.
- [24:41]
A
The pan just floats in the air. You have no idea what's going on, but it is making the movement.
- [24:47]
B
What does it look like in person, Caroline? I mean, you really can't tell. There's like a burner at all.
- [24:51]
D
So there's a little silver circle where you can place the pot or pan. Our editor, Caitlin, actually asked them if you even needed that circle. And apparently you can just have it completely clear. But I think that helps you a little bit in the cooking process.
- [25:08]
A
But lots of induction I'm gathering at the show after Fred and I talked about it on the show.
- [25:14]
B
I'm sure that was all right. Fred and Dennis are talking about it.
- [25:17]
A
They rolled it out after they heard the show. They're like, we better have lots of induction here. But, I mean, I gather they're all over that at kbis, right?
- [25:24]
D
Definitely, yeah. It seems like induction has been a big topic the last few years. So, yeah, that was all over the show.
- [25:31]
A
Interesting. And it looked like AI made an appearance at the show quite a bit as well.
- [25:35]
D
Yeah, definitely. AI was a big topic, especially at some of the different appliance brands. So, for example, GE showcased this AI powered cook cam in its wall oven. Oven. And it can actually recognize the type of food that's being cooked and give you suggestions for temperature and timing, different settings. You can try out some of the brands, different models. Also have voice activation features now so you can use like voice prompts to turn your oven on. So that was really cool.
- [26:09]
B
Caroline, I'm curious just to jump in here. You know, we talk all the time on this show about how like designers have a very on again, off again relationship with technology in general and don't like smart home tech and want the dumb home do they want. I mean, what's that like at kbis? Do kitchen designers really like this stuff? Is there kind of like a warmer relationship with technology at kbis?
- [26:30]
D
It's hard to tell. It seems like. I was talking to our editor in chief, Caitlin Peterson about this just a few minutes ago and, and she was saying how a few years ago, maybe like five or six years ago, some of these AI or newer tech features just didn't seem as relevant to how people use their kitchens. But today and this year, it seems like brands are kind of taking a cue from designers and users and doing a better job of integrating these features into their appliances in a way that, that actually helps with day to day use and daily routines. So, yeah, it seems like it's becoming more integrated in the actual practical applications.
- [27:15]
B
I definitely remember going to Kips Bay a few like maybe 10 years ago and there was a lot of like we put a screen on it. You see this? There's a screen on it now. And I feel like maybe it's getting better now. I don't know. But Dennis, what do you think about all this stuff? Do you have AI in your toaster or what's your, what's your LLM situation in the kitchen?
- [27:34]
A
I mean, I was bombarded by so much negativity about AI when we asked designers whether they're focusing on making themselves more findable on AI. So I was really wondering, Caroline, what the mood was around AI and technology there, because as I say, I was bombarded by a lot of negativity from designers about our breaking technology.
- [27:59]
D
Yeah, it's hard to tell. I'm not sure how much designers are embracing it, but I guess we'll see. Maybe some of these newer innovations will help.
- [28:07]
A
Well, if it can give you better guidance on how to make that meal better, maybe that will the right temperature to cook it at and everything. I think maybe that might win some people over. We'll see. So you mentioned that the show is going to be moving to Vegas and I'm wondering sort of the National Kitchen and Bath association, where does this sort of fit into everything that's going on for them?
- [28:32]
D
Yeah. So I spoke to Bill Darcy while I was at the show, he's the president and CEO of the nkba and he talked a little bit about how over the last few years the organization is really trying to branch out beyond sort of the kitchen and bath specialty designers and reach more of those whole homes. High Point designers too. And so they've done that through like some pop ups at High Point Market and then also just like kind of shifting their programming to appeal to some of those whole home designers a little bit more. So there were tons of like panels and programming with designers hosted by like different shelter magazine editors. They also brought back this, this design council concept that they introduced two years ago where the NKBA picked this group of designers to sort of serve as ambassadors between the world of KBIS and High Point and the broader design community. And it seems like it was really successful. They brought it back this year with a new council. It was Bobby Burke, Mandy Chang, Nathan Orsman. So, yeah, they're kind of doing a lot too make this another top destination for designers in addition to Highpoint.
- [29:51]
A
Interesting. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing more of what they do at Highpoint and more of the designer integration, as you say. And I feel like we should be talking about kitchen and bath more. So now that you've set it up for us, perhaps we will get into it more. And I know you're going to be covering it more in the future as well, Caroline.
- [30:10]
C
So I look forward to.
- [30:12]
D
Yeah, definitely.
- [30:13]
A
So, Caroline, we're going to move on to talk about Taylor Swift and we're hoping that you will stay with us because Fred and I really might need some guidance in this area, so we'd appreciate your youthful insights here. Okay, definitely.
- [30:27]
D
I got you.
- [30:28]
A
Okay, thank you. Because as I say, next up, the pop star has bad blood with a New York based textile company, Cathay Home. Swift made an appeal to the US Patent and Trademark Office earlier this month looking to block the brand from securing the brand name Swift Home, which Fred and I are reading a great deal into what that means. But what do you think, Fred?
- [30:54]
B
Yes, that bad blood pun brought to you by a quick Google before we started the show here. Yeah, this has just been kind of a fun little trademark dispute that popped up in recent months. So this company, Cathay Home, probably not a company our listeners know too well, but they may. And they had this sub brand that they wanted to call Swift Home. And I think it was actually kind of okay, but then the logo sort of became cursive and it, it looks sort of like Taylor Swift's signature a little bit and then it became, you know, a sort of dispute because she has trademarked her signature. And so she filed a complaint about it. And eventually Cathay Holm, I think, wisely backed down from Dance. You know, that's someone you do not want to get on the wrong side of, lest he be the subject of a scathing ballad. But, yeah, Cathay went back down, and it was just. It's an interesting little situation because it got me looking at, well, what has Taylor Swift actually registered in terms of trademarks? It's like over 300. Like, all these phrases, like this sick beat is a trademark, and there's all these, like, it's kind of a. Kind of a wild thing. I'm assuming, Dennis, you did not do the same trademark database journey that I did, but what do you make of all this?
- [32:04]
A
Well, I did see. I mean, to your point, I did see that she has quite an array of trademarks. And I get it. I mean, what was interesting was I didn't see that she had any big website names or anything that she was holding onto. But I think many people were reading into the fact that she didn't want them to have Swift Home to suggest that maybe, just maybe one day that would be a foray that she wants to make on her own, perhaps once she gets married and it settles down, that maybe a nice bedding collection would be Welco and who knows what else in the home space.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think two things here. I mean, I definitely think the trademark angle. Let's start with the trademark angle before we talk about the Taylor Swift angle. That's much more fun. It is really interesting how intellectual property. We talk so much about dupes and knockoffs, and I feel like every day we hear about a new knockoff, and you really start to see how at the end of the day, oftentimes it's just like, who has the money and the leverage to either sue or threaten to sue? Because I think the idea that Swift Home is a protectable trademark, I mean, I kind of get it because she's Taylor Swift, but at the end of the day, it's the word Swift. And I think that on some level, the reason why they back down is because she's Taylor Swift. It sort of shows you how the IP world is not always set up to protect the little guy. I think about Coco and Dash, that company in Dallas who had the blue and white checked sofa. And Hastings, the betting company, sued them because somehow somebody gave them the trademark to blue and white checks. And that, you know, it just shows you how crazy it all is. But yeah, as you mentioned, Dennis, I think Taylor Swift is definitely a home influencer in the making. I don't know. Caroline is somebody who's a little more in the demographic. What do you think about that?
- [33:49]
D
Yeah, I think that could definitely happen. Taylor Swift has had tons of eras and different styles and aesthetics, so there's a lot to pick from. A lot she could translate to the home.
- [34:00]
B
Would you buy Taylor Swift bedding or let's do a little market research here.
- [34:06]
D
I don't know about that. I would have to see it first.
- [34:09]
B
All right, maybe we'll get a free sample.
- [34:11]
A
Well, and I feel she's very entrepreneurial, so, I mean, it really wouldn't surprise me at all. And I think she's clearly so bankable. So I would be very surprised if major retailers across the land aren't already talking to her about all sorts of things. But it will be interesting to see. I mean, your point about the trademarks is interesting, Fred. I saw that Warby Parker just dropped a Scully frame, and I was a little upset that I hadn't been consulted about that. So perhaps I need to talk to my attorneys on that and see if there's anything I can do there.
- [34:47]
B
I think we need to trademark. No, no, I agree. Yeah, I don't think we're going to be winning any trademark disputes, but maybe one for the future.
- [34:58]
A
Yeah, we'll keep an eye on that. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including March's Can't Miss Design events and a slew of new initiatives from Salone.
- [35:09]
C
But first, a quick break.
- [35:16]
A
This winter, laloy debuted beautiful new rug
- [35:19]
C
and pillow collections that are grounded in rich colors, natural materials and innovative craft. Their expansive breadth of product includes new must see collaborations with designers Jeremiah Bradley Brent and Leanne Ford. See it all@loyrugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and follow laloyrugs on Instagram and Tick Tock for the latest news and collaborations from the LOY at the Huntington in California, unfinished artwork by William Morris, J.H. durrell and other original creatives behind Morris Co. Have been uncovered. Now these historic sketches, left incomplete for more than a century, have been carefully finished by the Morrison Company Design studio and transformed into an extraordinary new body of work. It's a brand new chapter in a legacy that spans more than 160 years.
- [36:19]
A
Discover the brand new wallpaper and fabric
- [36:21]
C
designs within the collection on wmorrisonco.com and now back to the show.
- [36:34]
A
And we're back. I'm joined now by John Edelman, the newly appointed president, north and South America for Haworth Lifestyle. John, welcome back to the show.
- [36:47]
E
Thank you. I think last time you promised me a special blazer. I wouldn't mind collecting.
- [36:52]
B
I want to.
- [36:54]
A
Well, I honestly can't believe we're having this conversation. John, I can't believe that you've taken what appears to be an enormous role, and I'm excited for you. As you might have heard on this past week's Thursday show, I've set you up for nothing but success moving forward. But let's fill people in a little bit on all of this. So. So this came about because you bought Heller and brought it back to life. And I want to tell people that story before we jump into your new role, because Heller is central to this whole story.
- [37:35]
B
Yeah.
- [37:35]
E
So Heller was passion project. I think we did some amazing things. The last chair we launched won best of year, and then last with Cindy Allen and Interior Design magazine and just won the best outdoor lounge of the past 20 years. Right. Like, kind of unheard of. But showing at Neocon every year in this little space we had on Mondays. What was so nice was Franco Bianchi, the CEO of Hayworth, would come by every Monday for 20 minutes and take me in the hallway and just talk to me. And those things mean so much, I just can't tell you. And that's. And that. That helped build that sec. That relationship that we had to make this happen. It was pretty special. I met him years ago at Neocon, and I'd been called to come meet him. It was maybe the fourth year into design with the Reach, and I was brought into the busy Neocon. The entire space is full, and I get escorted through the crowds to a back room. Wait right here. And then two seconds later, Franco walks in, and he's, like, handsome and cool and. And he sticks his hands out. He goes, hello, my name is Franco Bianchi, and I want to buy your company. And I think I fell in love. I would have just said yes. And that's something that's not common out there and that I find very attractive. And it started off, we talked about a distribution program. We were always kind of playing with it. The first time, I wasn't ready. And then we had a good talk. And then he said, said, I didn't realize you were working so hard. Do you really want to work? And I said, I'm working my tail off and loving. I love working. And that was the catalyst that sparked the next level of conversation.
- [39:15]
A
It seems like a great growth distribution opportunity for Heller, which now goes into some new locations, it sounds like. Tell me.
- [39:24]
E
Yeah, so Heller will be distributed in multiple areas. Janice A. Will be distributing along their collection, and they have this amazing sales team. I was just lucky enough to go to their sales meeting. And Bill Ward is a phenomenal CEO and a great guy. We'll be through the the Hayworth store, which is a big deal, and that's a big kind of up and coming thing in Hayworth and also through the dealership network. So those are just additional distribution channels to the core business. The core business stays the same with lots of charming small retailers across the country. Design Within Reach being the primary retailer and our best friend. And it should be really, really beautiful for the brand.
- [40:08]
A
And to clear up the issue of Design Within Reach and on this past week's show, we very quickly went through John's resume of Edelman Leather selling to Knoll and then buying DWR and then selling to Herman Miller and all of that. You have Heller being sold within dwr and it sounds like that relationship continues and in fact may well expand with this new distribution. Yes.
- [40:33]
E
Yeah. I mean, Outreach is the strongest retailer in the world of authentic modern furniture. And I love them. So I think they're carrying our brands already. But I think with my understanding of how that company works and how their distribution works and how the manufacturing and merchandising side of the Italian side goes, I think I can dramatically build that business. And, you know, when you and I spoke, I think you mentioned when I texted you, it's a win win. That's a massive win win there. To have somebody who's a large vendor understand your business is a massive plus.
- [41:05]
A
Okay, well, so let's tell people. We again, this past week's show, we got into some of the brands a little bit, but you've got this stable now of Italian brands that you are in charge of growing. And you tell me first off what the brands are and then what you're hoping to be able to do with them.
- [41:26]
E
Well, Poltrona Frau, which is. Just saying it out loud makes me shiver a bit. My parents both sat in Poltrona franchise my whole life. When they had cocktails at night, I was in the living room. You've seen it. Casino again. Oh, my goodness. A brand that I wasn't that familiar with, which is Zenota and oh, my goodness, iconic pieces. It's like kind of the loudest brand, but the most comfortable, in some ways the best beanbag in the world. It's just a combination of things. And ceccote, which is again, like super high end, gorgeous Italian handmade furniture.
- [42:06]
A
I want to understand better how the Italian companies come at the American market, because I've had conversations. It's a different model. It tends to be more retail and less focused on the trade. But you tell me, and what you see evolving rather than perhaps changing right away, what do you see needs to happen?
- [42:32]
E
Well, I think running Italian brands from Italy, it's really just difficult. Not. Not only is the literal language different, but the way they refer to things is different. As an example, they refer to retailers as dealers. Well, it's confusing because dealers in our world are, you know, hey, we're no. And. And they do different jobs in Europe. They don't really sell through the A and B community in. In most of the rest of the world, whereas the United States is dominated by being the community developers. Even, you know, you have to work with a developer, but they tell you which A and B firm to go work with in general. Right. So they've been very, very separate in their strategies between these different brands, rather. And I think that if you speak about them as a whole, they're dramatically stronger as a whole. And imagine going into Gensler with Zenota, which I love, love, but you'll get two people in the room. If you go into Gensler with the stable of brands, you fill the room and you regale them with authentic stories about craftsmanship and origins of the brand. So I think it's pretty cool. I think it's rare to see the combination where it actually is much stronger as a group.
- [43:46]
A
Well, and to that point, John, at present, have these brands had a team of outside salespeople that are going around and presenting? I mean, is that a big part of the sales process or no?
- [43:58]
E
So I must say, like, every salesperson I've met, no matter what they do, is incredibly passionate and just loves the brands. But it's the. And they have, I think, one person, very few people that do that full time. The. Maybe a store person has a collection of A and D clients and a few residential trade and. But they do it separately and there's not a consistent strategy. I think everybody's passionate, everybody loves it. It's hard when everybody's separate. Right. When you think about these brands separately, you don't have the scale to build the team. So ideally we can harness the scale of the business and build a beautiful small team that can Tell the stories.
- [44:34]
A
So we've seen what I think is now called Floss, BNB Italia, if that's the current name that's being used for the roll up of an array of brands from a competitive company. And the understanding now is that they're going to try and unroll that company and sell off some of those brands in part because that roll up strategy just didn't seem to work or deliver the results they were hoping for. What's your understanding of all of that and are you salivating at the opportunity to step in and take some margin and some market share there?
- [45:13]
E
I respect those brands so much and was a student of the product. And the hardest thing in the world is to develop a collection of brands. Brands of designs like that are so, so, so iconic. So I give them huge kudos for just understanding the value of those brands. I think private equity driven design companies are difficult to succeed. I think, you know, it's, it's passionate brand leaders that understand it that lead them. If they flounder, I am more than happy to pick up some business. You know, that'd be the best thing in the whole world. But I don't want to ever speak poorly of things that I love and I know, of course, things. My job is to make it easier to buy our beautiful things and if we get more of that share, it'd be great.
- [45:56]
A
Well, so again then going back to what you imagine year one, year two, year three really looks like in this process, you know, I'm, I'm on day
- [46:08]
E
five, I'm on day five. But I think, you know, the first thing I need to do is, is learn about the businesses and how each one operates. That's going to take a little bit of time. Then I've got to understand, you know, and I always use, especially you look at a, a fruit tree and there's that stuff that's already fallen. It's rotten. We'll skip that. Then there's the low hanging, the media hanging a little higher. And we have to look at every level and make a plan for each stage and have the patience to go through the stages because, because my mind is exploding since Monday and I'll have to harness that and regroup and develop a patient plan of execution to get to be the dominant player. Right. So we can do it. I just gotta take a little time to put the pieces together. But I can tell you the strength will be in speaking in a much stronger single voice than many, many little ones. Right now when I say I'm sorry, but when I say that, that yes, the brands at retail, the brands at market, will never lose their distinct flavor and their iconic brand status.
- [47:16]
A
Sure.
- [47:16]
E
I'm just saying in certain areas, especially A and D, I got to bring a, almost like a multi line person, bring a package. So, so my package outside of the consumer is these brands. Because the marketing, the everything about the individuality, the brand brands will stay the same. Obviously, my job is to get people to look at them in a larger scale.
- [47:38]
A
Right. And again, it seems like there's so much opportunity in part because so much of the design community isn't fully aware of these brands. Right. And understand, I mean, I think a lot of these brands, oh, they might know the names, but they don't in depth know the catalog or the offerings or what they can do.
- [47:59]
E
Well, the other is a disconnect. Right. So near customers, it doesn't really appeal to residential interior designers.
- [48:04]
C
Right.
- [48:04]
E
So that's one place where you might see the brands together. But then when they walk up Madison, they're all individual, so they kind of know what they do. But then there, there hasn't been a ton of marketing right across the country when we use dealers rather than ourselves. It's a little difficult times to get the whole message out there when you're in a, in a multi line showroom or multi line retail environment environment. And I think most people don't connect those brands with Hayworth. Right, right. That's just something they haven't stressed over the years. And Hayworth has put together a phenomenal stable and not a stable that they're building to quickly exit. Right. A stable they're going to hold for 100 years.
- [48:43]
A
Well, and tell us a little bit about Hayworth because a lot of people, again, might not be familiar and a lot of people might assume it too is owned by private equity, which, which is not the case.
- [48:53]
E
Yes. Hayward is a family owned company, which is so refreshing. God bless all the publicly held companies. But there's a little different mindset. Sometimes they think for the long term, not to please every quarter to the shareholders, but to please themselves. The Hayworth family seems super supportive. I've met some of them, but not since the role. But it's kind of fun done to not have the public shell over you. Yeah, right. I think that's gonna be a little more free.
- [49:24]
A
Yeah. I mean, and I've spoken to many inside Herman Miller and elsewhere that just talk about the challenges of being a publicly traded company and the reporting structure and everything else and what you can do and what you can't do.
- [49:39]
E
So we've done that transition a few times. I mean, in the shoe business, I was with Sam Olivia when public. Then we sold Edelman to a public company and design and reach to a public company and stay with all those companies for a while after. So it can be super fun. It's amazing, but it's just different.
- [49:56]
A
Could you have imagined that this was the step that you would be taking? You and I were laughing before we came on air just because how funny that here we are, you taking another big role like this. Did you imagine this evening just a year or two ago?
- [50:12]
E
No, no, no. I really couldn't. But, you know, everything. Everything comes with my life. It's been a beautiful kind of role to it. And, you know, the fact that my parents sat in Vanity Fairchairs in Element Leather every night, I didn't even know what they were.
- [50:29]
A
Yeah.
- [50:30]
E
To. The best time of my entire life in business was the trips to Italy with my father buying leather and then design. When they reach where, where, where. Dario brought me to his office in 2010 and said, I told him to bring me all the big retailers in the world. They brought me you guys, and. And they had stopped selling us. Right. So. So when you look at it from what actually happened, it makes perfect and total sense. But, no, I didn't. It wasn't a plan, and I did. But. But it's a great, great outcome.
- [51:02]
A
Now, do we have to shake John McPhee loose from his role at Chillowitz?
- [51:07]
E
So that's always the hard thing for me now. I miss John. So he was obviously an investor in Heller. His son, Andrew McPhee, is arguably the most valuable thing that Hayworth is getting in this deal. As I said to you earlier, the one thing you can't teach in life is intelligence. And they'll be blown away by him. So I'm still involved with John because I'm an investor in Chilliwitch and on the board. But it would be amazing to have him along for this ride. He is, anyway, because he can't stop. You know, we talk to each other so often.
- [51:38]
A
Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. I'm sure. But, I mean, I can imagine you just sort of trying to coax him to come along with you. So it wouldn't surprise me at all, John, if we were having a conversation with the two of you in the next few months. We'll.
- [51:54]
E
No, let's see where we are in five years. I wouldn't say anything. John's got a job to do.
- [51:57]
A
Okay. No, I know he's got a big job at Chillowitz, so we'll see what happens there. But listen, maybe Chillowitz needs to be added to the Hayward stable. Who knows?
- [52:06]
E
You never know.
- [52:06]
A
Conversations could already be happening. Anyway, my point is. So what I'm curious about, where do you think we are right now? We keep waiting for the housing market to recover. Doesn't look like it's happening in a major way. At one point, we thought interest rates were gonna come down dramatically. Looks pretty clear that they're not going to be coming down dramatically. And then today, we get some pretty historic news with the Supreme Court announcing that they don't believe the President has the authority to tariff in the way that he has.
- [52:41]
E
And for listeners, that happened three hours ago.
- [52:44]
A
Exactly. To timestamp this, we're talking Friday afternoon at 4:00'.
- [52:48]
B
Clock. Luck.
- [52:49]
E
So I. So I've been raw, like, a lot.
- [52:52]
A
Okay.
- [52:53]
E
So I bet for so long that interest rates would go down. I mean, go up. I thought they're gonna. I bet against them for 13, 14 years, incorrectly. Like, that was artificial. I said we'd have a terrible first quarter because of tariffs. And they hit. I mean, the numbers aren't that bad. Some numbers came out today that weren't. Weren't amazing on, I think on gdp, but. But, like, it's. Nothing's crashed the housing market. I just don't know. I'm no longer predicting gloom and doom. But what's going to happen Monday, that's the greatest. Like, what's going to happen now? The tariffs overturned. I think it's fascinating. Are we going to claw them back? I mean, my wife buys stuff on Etsy all the time, and she paid a pretty massive duty on most of it.
- [53:39]
A
Yeah.
- [53:39]
E
Is that coming back to us? Like, is there. There's no system in place. I mean, this is massive. This is historical. What happened today. Even more historical than implementing the tariffs, in a way.
- [53:50]
A
Yes. Right. So, I mean, Liberation Day and all of that, and that caused so much tumult. And companies lost 20, 30% of their value that day. The CEO of RH was on his earnings call, watching his stock fall dramatically and might have fallen.
- [54:08]
E
He said the S word.
- [54:09]
A
Exactly. He blurted out an expletive. And that was. Everyone picked up on that. And listen. And that stock is still way down because no one's certain where all of this is going. And a lot of these companies are. And it's been fascinating to see how everybody has tried to navigate it. And we thought we were getting to a Point of acceptance in the whole thing that everyone was just trying to say, okay, this is just part of doing business. But all the while thinking, well, what happens if the Supreme Court overturns terrorists tariffs?
- [54:40]
E
So for housing, in my opinion, the government's going to have to shield the profits long term capital gains on real estate for, for private homes, right. If they do that, that could help with some of the difference in interest rate when they're going for a 2.5% loan to a 6% loan and even it out. Because what if you can't afford to downsize? Like when you get older, you can't move to a smaller house, then that young family can't come into the house and fix it up and sell it in five and the whole cycle gets just disrupted.
- [55:06]
C
Right?
- [55:07]
E
But if they can start that, you know, that generation is time to buy a condo in, you know, Naples or something, whatever it's going to be. And there are certain markets I'm looking at. I'm in Westport, Connecticut right now. If a house goes on the market today that is basically turnkey, it sells in 12 hours. So houses do sell. We just need people to be selling more of them.
- [55:27]
A
One of the things that's challenging for companies today is that, and I was just having this conversation at a, at a luncheon earlier today with an executive who runs, runs multiple showrooms and he says today, a, you have to have the physical presence, then you have to have this big social media presence, then you have to be advertising and reaching out to the editorial community constantly and all of that. And you've got to have outside sales and there are more channels to cover and more expectation and more costs to go after those same sales that used to just come from you either having a store or having a showroom. And that was about it. How do you think about that? Because I know that marketing is a huge part of what needs to happen next for these Italian brands.
- [56:12]
E
So if you look at what we did for the brand at Heller in four years with no money,
- [56:21]
B
right.
- [56:21]
E
I mean, it's unbelievable. So it can be done. But then you don't have a salesforce, you don't have the other side. So for the Italian brands, you know, we have an amazing dealership network to leverage. That's, that's there, there. We have locations, we have retailers that carry our brand, we have retailers that run only under our brands. Right. Mono brand stores. So for us, it's inherently we have a, we have a leg up.
- [56:44]
B
Right.
- [56:45]
E
And, and I think I can create the energy and Then take the marketing dollars that were for all the brands and pool them. So it seems like a lot more. And I think that's the job today. I don't. I think I'm. I'm trained to. To. To. To be miserly a bit on that spend because it's very hard to gauge success or failure of certain kinds of marketing, and we just have to watch that very carefully. But I'm not worried about it at all. I think a lot of it comes from the A and D community and getting specified and getting on jobs, and then you get in the magazines, you get the credit, and then that builds your relationships there, and it kind of builds pretty organically. If you think about Edelman Leather, you know, we had such a brand, and we had a very narrow scope of marketing. Now, times have changed. Yes, but all the packages, everything you do with a magazine is basically digital, too. It always comes together, and you can clearly create a compelling little conglomerate of marketing energy. And it seems to be working. I'm not worried about it. I think the hardest part is getting some people that a project people want to look. Look at. So when you have a phenomenal product, there's an energy there on its own that I think just has to be talked about and brought to the magazine's faces again and shown were the Italian brands.
- [58:06]
A
I assume they were impacted by the tariffs in a meaningful way. A lot of conversation about what do we even do at this point with containers that are on the water and everything else. I mean, when you. When you think about that huge issue, can you imagine it going away in a meaningful way or. Or will that not be a big focus for you in the. In the early days of all of this?
- [58:32]
E
It will not be a focus for me at all.
- [58:34]
A
Okay.
- [58:35]
E
Because it really doesn't matter. I mean, everybody's gonna be in the exact same boat, and we're all gonna do the same thing and we'll adjust it. It's. That's. If. If that was my. Thank God, that's not something I have to worry about. You know, I have enough things to put together. It won't matter at all. I mean, chaos will ensue where it might matter if it just confuses the economy so much that we have a problem and the government in the next lawsuit is told to pell the money back immediately. Right, That's. That'd be a bad sign too. But obviously it won't happen. But no, it won't bother me. I do think it's chaos, like real chaos, and will be interesting to see on next week. It's such short term thinking. But how the market, how businesses react to the news. They've had no time. I mean, I've been basically with you, so who knows?
- [59:25]
A
Well, no, exactly. I mean, we've both been sitting here chatting and the world could be melting down and perhaps it is. It's fascinating. We've never seen anything like this. We've never seen anything like the past year, year. And remarkably though, what's interesting, John, and I want to get your perspective on this. When I went to Paris, when I went to London in January and spoke with all these fabric houses and spoke with all of these to the trade brands, they all seem to have a remarkably good year in 2025. Despite kvetching about the tariffs and the challenges and all of the uncertainty, the trade, particularly at the high end, seemed to have a pretty strong year year, which makes me think that there's so much opportunity for you and these brands
- [60:12]
E
with that every economic data point tells you the rich got richer and they're spending. Yes, yes. So hallelujah. And you know, you can't buy a Rolex or a Ferrari or a Porsche 911. You literally just can't buy them.
- [60:24]
A
Yes.
- [60:25]
E
So that's very good for this, this type of market. I think it's, you know, we have, I think it's confusing to the rest of the world. Oh, it must be so tough in the United States or there's headwinds. I don't think so. I mean, I think it's not easy, but it's certainly easier when you're in a luxury segment.
- [60:43]
A
Well, and to that point, John, everyone that I spoke to in Europe was laser focused on the US that's the market we need to succeed. Right. And I assume the same is true for the Italians. They need.
- [60:53]
B
Yeah.
- [60:53]
E
Because China got tough. Right. China got really tough and the Amer and the top quarter percent of Americans got very strong and they started to demand luxury, understand luxury and eat it up. So that's fantastic.
- [61:09]
A
The question for many has been, is there a big enough market in the US for what we consider to be modern or contemporary furniture versus all of the traditional furniture that we see in most of the big shelter magazines or most of the big projects that we,
- [61:27]
C
we, that we see?
- [61:28]
A
What's your, what's your take on that or how do you think about that?
- [61:31]
E
I think people live in an eclectic manner and even the traditional homes today are showing modern mixed in if they're designed well. And I think at the level we're Selling to either we control the look of the project or we're a significant portion mixed in. And if you look at our brands, most of the product is kind of iconic. And you could, you know, I would say I say it for Heller, but I'll say it for here too. You could put it in a warehouse or a pen house.
- [61:56]
B
House.
- [61:56]
E
And it holds its own. So we really belong in almost every environment. And I've been living in the, for the past couple days in the Pono FR show on Madison and.
- [62:05]
A
Lucky you.
- [62:07]
B
Yeah.
- [62:07]
E
I mean life is good. That's my office and you know, you can really see it almost anywhere. So I don't, I don't, I think.
- [62:13]
B
Yes.
- [62:13]
E
To answer your question, the market is dramatically way bigger than we're touching at the moment.
- [62:19]
A
Yeah.
- [62:20]
E
Corporate hospitality, residential yachts, massive opportunity for all of our brands. And I don't think we're so avant garde at all. We're pretty basic, just really well designed.
- [62:36]
A
And finally, when you were brought on in all of this and this all just happened, what's your take on what management really needs to see from you? What do you think success is going to look like, like to your bosses in, in a year or two?
- [62:52]
E
The honest answer is results.
- [62:54]
A
Yeah.
- [62:55]
E
And if I'm successful by increasing sales and, and brand awareness, that's a success. If I do one without the other, not that successful. Right. So if we do a bunch of short term things that create sales, that's not that hard to do. That's not the right way to go about it. We have to do it with maintaining the, the, the, the brands panache everything about the brands. So they're going to measure me by how does the brand hold up in today's society? Where do we stand? Have you raised the level in the United States or lowered it and are we doing more sales or are we about to. And is there a plan for that? That's the report part.
- [63:36]
C
Yeah.
- [63:36]
A
Yeah. Do you imagine you'll need a great big team? Do you imagine you'll need to hire some people to help you with all of the.
- [63:43]
E
That I mean, I hope so. I have a good team now and I think I have to learn. We put the team together who has the strengths to kind of think on a larger scale. But what happens when you were in the company for a long time was when you get to a wall, first you bat your head in a couple times, then either you dig a hole, you climb over, you walk around it, but the wall's still there. So these people just got sometimes found A way around it. But now we work together, we can build a road right. Go right through. So. And that's the challenge. But I think we have passionate, intelligent people, and we're going to leverage that. That skill set first.
- [64:18]
A
Well, John, I'm very excited for you, and I'm very excited for Hayworth, and I'm really pleased that this next chapter is happening for you. Congratulations.
- [64:31]
E
Thank you, Dennis. I just want to say thank you to you and Fred as well, because I do really enjoy the show. I mean, and I get to listen to old friends, and it's like, it's almost better than social media. I get a much deeper vibe into what's going on because I don't see them all the time, but I really enjoy it. It makes me smile.
- [64:47]
A
Well, I appreciate you making the time. I know you're just five days into the new job, but thank you so much, John.
- [64:52]
E
Thank you for having me, sir.
- [64:58]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Caroline, what caught your eye?
- [65:09]
D
I saw that dezeen covered this Swedish designer Gustav Westman, who created these bowls in honor of the Olympics. They're actually shaped like curling. I don't know what you call that.
- [65:26]
B
Curling stones, things. Yeah.
- [65:29]
A
Yes.
- [65:29]
D
Yes. So I thought that was a fun way to get in on the Olympics.
- [65:34]
A
I think that's very fun. The Olympics clearly wanted us all to like curling a lot more than we might already, so I'm glad that they. Glad that they jumped on that as well. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [65:45]
B
I love how. Yeah. IKEA announced plans to spend $2 billion on the US market. I wonder how much of that 2 billion is going to those curling poles. Yeah, just a fun little column on businessofhome.com caught my eye this week. An editor, Caitlin Menza, who writes a regular recurring feature for us on shop owners around the country, has a really fun interview with a woman named Charlotte Smith, who owns a shop in Raleigh, North Carolina, called Union Camp Collective. So seems like a really fun shop. I've never been there, but I like, after reading this interview, I feel like I gotta go there next time. In rally, Charlotte was talking about about how her, like, ideal customer is a weird aunt or anyone who has a sense of humor. And she talks a lot about how, like, her biggest regret is not spending more on pieces. It's just a really fun, charming, you know, shop owner. And I hope to visit it and it was a really fun read. So I recommend people check that out. Maybe we'll link it in the show notes. What caught your eye this week?
- [66:39]
A
Dennis A couple things caught my eye that are, that are coming up next week. One is the big design elephant show that friend of the show Becky Birdwell is is putting on and it looks like a lot of great guests are lined up for panel discussions. I'm sorry that I will not be there, but it looks like a really great show and it will be no doubt well attended. Part of the reason that I won't be there is because next week is also the Niced gala and people who listen to the show regular know that I try to help the New York School of Interior Design raise money for scholarships. And the gala is the big scholarship fundraiser of the year. We'll be giving awards to Bill Sofield and Ken Folk and others. And somehow I've gotten roped into being the emcee of the affair. So I that is reason enough to, to come and enjoy and watch me fall on my face? No, it's gonna be great. And as I say, it's, it's, it's amazing to see how many people from the industry turn out and, and many want to come and pay tribute to, to Ken and Bill and others. So I look forward to seeing much of the design industry there next week. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with
- [68:00]
C
the latest news, browse job list listings
- [68:02]
A
or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully.
- [68:19]
C
Have a great weekend and we'll be
- [68:20]
A
back with you on Monday.