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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: What happened at High Point? Plus: Milan Design Week takeaways
01:01:44
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, editor in chief Kaitlin Petersen joins the show to recap High Point Spring Market.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with BoH Editor in Chief, Caitlin Peterson. To recap, High Point Market. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including bankruptcy for Wren Kitchens, a Charles Cohen update, and the most valuable design auction in U.S. history. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive executive editor Fred Niklaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Ciao, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:36]
A
Ciao, Fred. How long has it been?
- [00:39]
B
Oh, too long, Dennis. Too long.
- [00:41]
A
Too long.
- [00:42]
B
Listeners can't see that I'm wearing sunglasses, smoking and judging everything now that I've been to Milan Design week one time.
- [00:50]
A
He is a new man.
- [00:53]
B
I'm a new man. But yes, it was a great trip and you had fun with Caitlin and Highpoint. We're gonna be talking about that in depth later on. But how was the food? Let me just. We didn't talk about that. So how is.
- [01:04]
A
Sure, sure. Should we compare the Milanese cuisine to the High Point fare? I see where this is going, Fred.
- [01:11]
B
Well, they have a pretty good Biscuit Ville in Milan, so I think we both ate.
- [01:15]
A
Well,
- [01:17]
B
anyway, we'll talk plenty more about Milan later. In the meantime, though, let's look back on Monday's episode, A conversation with the married couple behind Homeworthy, Allyson Kenworthy and Michael Koenig's runaway YouTube sensation, Homeworthy. What'd you make of this chat?
- [01:32]
A
It was a great conversation. I was so glad to finally speak with them. And I was delighted that Michael shared as much as he did about how YouTube really works and sort of dispelled some of the notions that many listeners might have had about YouTube. And at one point he joked about it's not cat videos. And interestingly, a designer wrote into me and said, thanks so much for that show because I still thought it was cat videos. So it shows that the perception still lingers out there. But it was a great conversation and fun to hear how it didn't take off in the very beginning. And really, Covid was the match that struck.
- [02:17]
B
Another Covid company, really, in a way. I mean, we think of them, you know, we think of furniture companies and designers, but I really do think, you know, this runaway success YouTube channel can pin its success on Covid. And yeah, YouTube is crazy. I do think the perception needs to catch up with the reality. I want to quickly shout out PR maven Laura Binloss from Nylon, who talks about this all the time, but it's crazy. I mean, the audience is crazy. It's watched more than Netflix and Hulu and people watch it on the craziest stat is that people watch it much more on their TVs.
- [02:50]
A
Now.
- [02:50]
B
They're not sitting at their computer looking at this content, they're watching it on the big screen in the living room. And I do think it's an opportunity for designers. I know a lot of people are jumping on board creating their own YouTube channels. I think it's sort of the next big frontier for the design industry and Homeworthy has a head start. So really interesting to sort of hear their process. And also I think a wake up call for the rest of us who maybe have been letting YouTube kind of drift by in the background to our own detriment.
- [03:16]
A
Well, I think also it's great for people to hear that, hey, why are those Homeworthy videos so well produced? Oh, look, Alison has three Emmy awards and is an incredible producer and they both have an extensive TV production background, which guess what helps when you're building YouTube videos.
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, I know. I still feel like there's more to this story than I had a job as a producer on Good Morning America and I quit to make YouTube videos on my iPhone. Maybe that's round two with Alison when she comes back. It's a crazy story and more power to them.
- [03:47]
A
Yeah, no, no, it's a great story. I'm thrilled about their success and I and I hope we can have them back in the future because they've got lots of new partnerships that they're working on and I'm sure there'll be a lot more to talk about, but I hope people enjoy that show and we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, a family run company known for thoughtfully designed rugs, pillows and wall art and for building lasting partnerships across the trade. For anyone sourcing product right now, Laloy just came out of high point market with a wide range of new collections including the highly anticipated and honestly stunning Rain collection, plus the latest from Rifle Paper company by Laloy Collaboration. Along with new pillows and wall art. The idea is to give customers more to work with on the design side while keeping everything else from ordering to support as straightforward as possible. With dedicated sales reps, showrooms nationwide and an easy to use website. To learn more or to connect with a sales rep, visit Laloi rugs.com that's L O L-O I rugs.com this podcast is sponsored by Chelsea House in celebration of Found by Eric Ross featuring 80 artful expressions of Eric's refined yet approachable design sensibility, Found debuted at Spring Market as one of the most successful new collections ever introduced by Chelsea House. Visit chelseahouseinc.com today to see why designers were thrilled to discover Found by Eric Ross. And we're back. First up, an update on a story we've been following recently. Everyone's favorite landlord, Fred.
- [05:45]
B
And not just any story. This is more Charles Cohen drama. Yes, Design center landlord Charles Cohen has secured a few more weeks to drum up the cash needed to hold onto his real estate portfolio. Yeah, this is, this is the story that never ends Charles Cohen's debt battle.
- [06:02]
A
So many people came up to me at market saying, so, so the deadline, what, what's happening? What's, what's going on? And meanwhile, I, I think we, we heard some, some rumblings about some, some more time given. So let's, let's get into this story, shall we?
- [06:15]
B
Yeah. It's always tough to know how far back we go with this. Do we go, do we go back to the dawn. Dawn of time to start the Charles Cohen saga? But, yeah, Charles Cohen, of course, is, you know, the landlord who owns the D and D building here in New. In Los Angeles. He used to own a couple more design centers, but he's lost them over the course of the past couple years. And he's still locked in this battle with Fortress, a company that lended him a bunch of money and is coming to collect on. In particular, they're coming to collect on this $190 million debt that he personally guaranteed. Now, there was this really hard line in the sand April 20, that he was going to have to come up with this money or they were going to take receivership of his properties and do with them what they may to pay themselves back. But that deadline came and went, and we into the legal filings and found out that he had managed to buy himself another month. So a stay of execution for Charles Cohen and another opportunity for us to check back in next month, because May 20th is coming up fast.
- [07:14]
A
That's right. And we have to believe that something substantive is going on for Fortress to have given him an extension, because they certainly have seemed unwilling to do so in the past. In fact, there were numerous complaints about how he was dragging his feet and never respond. Right. Yes, it got pretty heated.
- [07:33]
B
Yeah. Fortress has been pursuing this case like a dog with a bone. They have gone after Charles Cohen as hard as it is possible to do. And so the fact that they're granting this stay suggests to me that there is actually something going on and there's a transaction kind of obliquely referred to in the legal filings. Now, what exactly that means is anyone's guess. Does that mean that Charles Cohen is selling off a couple buildings? That he's closing in on a sale? You and I have both heard a rumor that will irresponsibly possibly share now, which is that he's found another lender who's willing to take over Fortress's debt. We simply don't know. And we probably won't know until May 20. But in the meantime, let's speculate irresponsibly. Does this make it more or less likely, do you think, that Charles Cohen will, by hook or by crook, give up the PDC and the D and D building? Or does it make it more likely that he'll hold onto them anymore?
- [08:25]
A
I find myself leaning more in the direction that somehow he's going to pull a rabbit out of a hat here again, which is where we were ages ago when all of this first, this makes me think that maybe he isn't going to have to give up the buildings. What do you think?
- [08:39]
B
Yeah, at the very least, this throws a little bit of cold water on it, because I have to believe there's a credible something going on. Otherwise Fortress wouldn't give him the extension. That indicates that he wants to keep the decision in his hands. And it seems like he wants to hold onto the PDC in particular, and certainly D and D building as well. So I don't know, I don't want to throw too much cold water on it, especially because this is our prediction for the year that this will happen. But I do think we should be realistic and say that this, at the very least, least maybe as a strike against the idea that there'll be a new landlord in the D and D anytime in the immediate future. But we will certainly check in again on May 20th.
- [09:14]
A
Absolutely. And in the meantime, hey, listen, if anyone out there knows what's going on, drop us a line here at the podcast. We'd love to hear from you, as always, but moving on, we're gonna talk about Wren Kitchens. The American arm of the UK based company filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy last week, abruptly closing all 15 of its US showrooms. This was a surprise, Fred.
- [09:36]
B
Yes, it was a big surprise, especially because Wren Kitchens opened with such a big fanfare when they came to the States. I think we might have actually even talked about it on the podcast once or twice. This is a huge company in the uk. They're doing Close to a billion in revenue there. They have 100 showrooms there. And they launched the goal of taking over this market that we always talk about. There really aren't that many great kitchen cabinetry brands in the US that are national presences. You have your Ikea and people go to Home Home Depot and do that. And then you have the super specialized people at the high end. But there's all this space in the middle. And Wren seemed like, okay, well, they have a big operation, they know how to do this. They opened up a 252,000 square foot manufacturing facility in Pennsylvania. I think the thought was like, they're here, they're serious and they're going to find some success. And then six years later, they're leaving in the dark of the night and stashing the keys into the mat and their employees are abruptly fired. It's kind of a sad story.
- [10:35]
A
Very sad story, as you say. Letting everyone go over zoom. It sounds like unfinished projects left in the lurch. And so many people had said to me, oh, oh, you wait till Ren Kitchen gets here. And they're just going to be this huge player in the States. And people who were familiar with the company said that this was really going to be enormous and big partnerships with Home Depot and others. And it's just perhaps a reminder of just how challenging it is to come into this country and try and build something out like that, particularly in the worst housing market in, what is it, 100 years. Fred according to Gary Friedman.
- [11:13]
B
Yeah, it's getting up there. Yeah, it's very difficult. And I think that it's funny, this story kind of reminds me of Oka. Do you remember them that very much?
- [11:20]
A
Exactly what I was thinking.
- [11:21]
B
Yeah. Buzzy. English furniture company that came over and they similarly just left. It's kind of crazy to think about that because their business is still flourishing in the uk. But over here it was just. Turn out the lights. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. And I've looked at the bankruptcy documents. I looked at some documents that they filed in England. It was sort of surprising to me. You know, there weren't any clues as to exactly why it was so hard for them to take off here. But there were some shocking numbers. I mean, they were doing something like 20 or $19 million in revenue or just over $20 million in revenue in 2025. That is a very small amount for a huge kitchen company with a giant manufacturing facility. I imagine there are plenty of high end kitchen showrooms and designers, you know, that clear that much revenue. So they clearly never got a foothold here. I think it's very difficult to establish a kitchen cab. And the irony is that I think we've both talked about that there's such an opportunity there, but this just shows how hard it really is. There's a reason why it's a white space is because people keep trying to do it and they fail.
- [12:22]
A
Yeah, it's just such a graveyard in this category. And it's fascinating to try and speculate as to why this is so challenging. And perhaps part of it is they weren't certainly a well known brand here. I doubt that very many people had heard of them. And maybe the lack of brand equity was part of the challenge, just how long that takes. But those revenue numbers were shocking to me. I imagined that they were doing so much more business and how on earth were they only doing that level of sales? So again, often companies that come into the US are accused of not fine tuning and honing their marketing to the US and really understanding this customer better. But I'm sure we're gonna learn more in the coming weeks and I'm fascinated to understand better what happened for them. But meanwhile, I wonder what the big takeaway is in all of this.
- [13:20]
B
Well, I mean, I think we've touched on it already. I mean, this is a difficult time, obviously, in the home industry. I think it's particularly hard to build a brand in a category that people engage in maybe once or twice in their lives. We talk about how hard it is to establish a brand for a sofa. When people buy one sofa every 10 years, well, how often do they renovate their kitchen? Certainly even less. And so I think there's just some really big fundamental challenges in the category. I also think it's kind of ironic because they have this big partnership with Home Depot. You think that's going to get them in front of U.S. consumers? You know, I would imagine it kind of hurt their margins, probably. They weren't making as much on the Home Depot kitchens as their own. So maybe that that was a factor as well. But, you know, I don't know. It's sort of a perfect storm of factors here. And I remain excited about the idea that a company could come in and, you know, do this kitchen thing at that slot in the market. But I think this is going to probably deter people from jumping into the fray rather than encourage them. So, yeah, I don't, I don't know if there's a single takeaway. It's a lot of small ones.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I completely agree and once again, disrupting the US market in any category remains very challenging. And we've certainly proved that in our many conversations. Moving on, we're going to talk about a record breaking sale in stark contrast to what we were just discussing.
- [14:34]
B
Greg, the most valuable design auction in US history took place last week when a trove of design pieces sold for $96 million at Sotheby's. Quite a chunk of change. What'd you make of this?
- [14:46]
A
I think it was staggering that an ensemble of 15 mirrors went for more than Ren Kitchen was doing in revenues. To go back to the story we were just discussing, and I went back and actually watched the auction for the collection of mirrors go down. And it was one of those classic how many bidders on the phones? And the bid just kept going up and up. And I think everyone in the room couldn't even believe how high the bids were suddenly becoming.
- [15:15]
B
Yeah, no, I mean, I didn't watch it, but it sounds like riveting, Riveting content. Yeah, of course. These are 15 mirrors designed by Claude Lalanne. The lot had a ton of other very recognizable names in it. Jean Michel, Frank, Jean Royer, a lot of big names from the world of design. And in some ways this is sort of surprising because it obviously broke a record and no one expected the mirrors to go for that much. But I don't think it's shocking. Exactly. I sort of feel like this kind of stuff has been selling at auction at higher and higher prices recently. There's so much noise about the value of design at auction. Collectible design is such a big category. It was obviously huge in Milan and more and more people are talking about it. So this is the culmination of a slow moving story and I don't think this will be the. I think this won't be the record for much longer.
- [16:03]
A
No, I agree. And it's funny because it just broke a previous record, which I think was back in December when that incredible hippo bar by the same. Right. The same designer had sold for a record price. And I think there is just intense interest in this category and in so many of the names that you just rattled off. Jean Michel, Frank and Royer and Lalanne OB And I think these collectors are wildly passionate and I think prices are indeed going to be going higher. And when you talk to designers whose clients collect some of these things, they say that this is what they're willing to spend on and they're willing to not spend in other categories to get this. Much to their dismay, perhaps.
- [16:46]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, I think a couple things are going on here. I mean, I'm far from expert in this world, but to my understanding, I think a lot of what's driving this is just the art market itself has almost become so untethered from reality. And buying into blue chip art is something that only the tech billionaires and the oil billionaires can really do. And so I don't want to say this is affordable, but at a lower level, your average millionaire can sort of get into this world in a more serious way. So that's certainly an opportunity. But I also think there is just this sort of growing cultural momentum that's come from a lot of different directions. I think even Covid here too, played a role in getting people more excited about high end design, collectible design, the history of design. I don't want to say this is just a Covid phenomenon, but I think it played a little bit of a role. And I think that you're absolutely right. There's an opportunity here for interior designers, because I think clients, this is something exclusive you talk about, something that's not easy just to buy online. It's this. You need to be educated in these names, educated in this category. You need to understand the history here and to give your clients something truly special. And I think designers who study up and learn this world are really poised to be the guide or the Sherpa for their client in this really interesting world. So this is a lot of money and it's a good opportunity.
- [18:01]
A
I completely agree. So often when I speak to great designers, they're always so critical of the younger generation that the younger generation doesn't understand who some of these great furniture makers were and these great designers from a previous age and product designers. And I think that many in the field are guilty of not having what turns out to be sufficient knowledge about who these people are and why their work is raising so much emotion and interest and just a desire that people are willing to pay so much for some of these items. These mirrors that we were talking about were 10 years in the making. So they're extraordinary pieces and again, extremely rare. And I think designers do have a tremendous opportunity to learn more about not only this market, but where perhaps the next market adjacent to this will be, because there is a lot of interest. And to your earlier point about the billionaires who are interested in all of this, they want to know what is collectible and what will increase in value over time.
- [19:10]
B
Yeah, the collectible design name is such a funny one. Right. Because how can you say something is collectible before it's been collected. But, you know, it's a growing world. I think you said it's an opportunity for designers to learn more, it's an opportunity for some podcasters to learn more, and I think it's something. I think I've already been paying attention to it a little bit, but I think this is a cue to pay much, much more attention in the days, weeks, months, years ahead.
- [19:36]
A
I agree, and I think we'll be talking about it more in the future. But in the meantime, someone went to Milan, Fred, and we're going to talk about it right now. You were on the ground. What did you find?
- [19:47]
B
What did I not find in Italy? Yeah. I mean, I just. I want to make a little bit of a caveat before we get started here. This is my first time going to Milan Design Week, so I'm far from some jaded expert who's seen it all. I went in with wide eyes and was dazzled and exhausted by what I saw, but I just wanted to make sure everybody knows that I'm not a veteran fairgoer. But it's certainly an incredible event. I think oftentimes the design industry feels a little bit tucked away. This takes over Milan. This is the center of the universe while you're there. And it's very exciting to be in that world with so much energy and hype in the air, even if some of it is a little overwhelming and kind of crazy. What are your own experiences with Milan design winners? You've been. But it's been a while, right?
- [20:36]
A
Yeah, it's been a while since I've been. And it was always an extraordinary affair. But in my past, the much bigger focus was the fair itself, and I think that that dynamic has completely shifted. And in fact, the fair is sort of less of the focus. And in fact, many people who were in Milan didn't even go to the fair and acted like fair. What fair? I was, though. I was there for all the parties. I was there for all these incredible activations, but it has changed dramatically, and we should talk about that.
- [21:08]
B
Yeah. I mean, just to break it down a little bit. So, you know, Milan Design Week is kind of the big umbrella name for everything that goes on in the city of Milan during this springtime week. And there's kind of two big tentpoles. You have Salone del Mobile, which is the actual trade fair. I think a lot of people just refer to the whole thing as Salone, but Salone is actually. It's a trade fair. And then you have this other thing And I'm going to try and say this correct correctly. Furisalone, which is the sum total of all of the events that happen in the city of Milan and in the suburbs. And there's a lot of them. There's just so much going on in the city. And so you put those two things together and you've got Milan Design Week. And as you mentioned, I think historically the fair was really the big game in town. And that's if you went to Milan, you went to the fair. But in recent years, and certainly this year, I encountered so many people who were like, oh yeah, I'm here for Salone. And I'm like, oh, you're going to the fair? They're like, what's the fair like? It really, it really has become such a thing in town that especially if you're kind of going to the kind of artsy or hipper installation and exhibitions, you don't even feel that you need to go to the fair.
- [22:09]
A
Well, exactly. And I wonder what that means for the business itself. And often in the past we talked about the furniture business or the lighting business and how important this was for that. And now that it seems so detached, I wonder what business is happening there, Fred, and what it means.
- [22:34]
B
Well, I spent a week there and I don't know yet I somehow wrote 3,000 words about it. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, right, because one of the things that's really happened in Milan is that it's gone from being this trade and design oriented event to this giant attention economy event, essentially. So it's not just your Italian furniture brands or even your American furniture company Sushi show up. You also have the big luxury houses like Gucci had a big exhibition there and Jill Sander and last year Loewe had a big enormous exhibition. And then you also have in more recent years, like Chiquita came in and did a banana themed installation and McDonald's has a giant ball pit that they set up. So it really has become this crazy, overrun, overhyped, crowded thing then I think that a lot of people are not too happy about that. I think one of the interesting things about Milan Design Week is that inasmuch as there's this sensation of, oh my God, you have to go, you have to go, you gotta be there. There's also this counter narrative of it's over.
- [23:39]
A
Well, and what does that mean when people say, oh, it's over. And oh, look at all of the carnival that's been created around this. Why is that perceived negatively by so many people?
- [23:51]
B
Well, I mean, it comes down to a couple things. I mean, one thing I think is it's just simply that there's a nostalgia for how it used to. I think if you're a design journalist, you used to go and kind of feel like the city was all about design and you didn't have to wait in line for, you know, an hour to get into something. Then you sort of miss those days. But I also think there is this real economic thing that happens which is just that, you know, when Gucci comes to town or Google comes to town, they can, you know, their marketing budget is like the size of five Italian furniture companies put together and so they can afford to stage these outrageous exhibitions and it drives up rents for everybody else. And so it kind of crowds smaller, more independent brands to the side. And I also think it's become such a competition for attention that I think it just pushes everybody to be really loud. And I think that it maybe cuts down on what a more serious minded design aficionado really liked about Milan Design Week, when it was a little more intellectual and it was really kind of more purely about design. It's really become this crazy carnival and there's really this sense that the porridge has kind of gotten too hot, even if people do keep coming year after year.
- [24:53]
A
It's funny, it makes me think of the old Yogi Berra quote about how nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded. And I think that for a lot of people, they love to complain about all the activations and all the fashion brands coming in and all the people who just want to see and be seen. But you have to imagine that there's some benefit to hundreds of thousands of people descending on this city and wanting to take part in the culture of it and the design aspects of it. And I mean, High Point would love to have these kind of numbers, right?
- [25:28]
B
I know, it's funny. It's like people from all over the world come here. It's the worst thing ever. Yeah. I mean, I should say that the weird component of that take like this idea that, oh, Milan design week is over, is that for the people who are actually presenting at the fair and in the city, you know, it's not quite so simple. I think these people are happy to have hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, it's a double edged sword, right? I think no one, no one likes the fact that the city gets crowded and hotels are 10 times more expensive and you can't get a reservation and all that. But I think for all the people Complaining about it, maybe rightfully so. There's people who are. This is hundreds of thousands of people all paying attention to design. What's to complain about? I mean, I think we should talk about the fair a little bit, too. A lot of what I've been saying really more applies to all the activations in town. The actual trade show, Salone del Mobile, is sort of a really interesting spot as well, because after Covid, like a lot of European trade shows, it's kind of struggled to come back to the volume that it once had. This is an enormous trade show, I should be clear. People tell you, oh, it's not quite what it used to be. You walk in and it's just like a fire hose of people coming at you from all around the world. It takes an hour to walk from one side to the other. The fact that it was bigger before boggled my mind because it's so incredibly impressive. But, yeah, they have had some of the big tentpole Italian brands leave to show up in the city because that's where some of the cultural action is. I had a really good time there, too. I do think that the president, Maria Poros, is young, very energized. She's doing a lot to try and shake things up and try new things. I didn't get the sense that it was a wasteland or, oh, my gosh, this is struggling so much. But it's just an interesting time for trade shows in general. And I think some of that tension of, do I show up in the city, Do I show up in the town? What do I need an event for? Where do I put my money? Is weighing on the market minds of brands who have exhibited their historically and are maybe trying to figure out what they're going to do next year.
- [27:21]
A
I do wonder for designers, what your sense of, is it worth it for them to come over? And if so, what do you imagine them getting out of it?
- [27:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it is worth it. It's completely singular. It's a totally unique event that's totally unlike anything else, and it's a very extreme event. I think it's kind of a must visit, and I'm really glad I got to go. I think the reality of it, though, is that you have to go with a reasonable set of expectations about what you can get out of it. I think it's very inspirational. I think you may encounter a company who will do business with you if you're lucky. But I think it's exhausting, too. I think you have to keep that in mind as well. It's almost. There's a design writer, Leonora Epstein, who has a great substack called Shimada, who talked about how it's the one design event where you can have FOMO even if you're actually there. And I certainly experienced that. It's, it's definitely a must visit event, but I'm not sure if it's a yearly necessity for every interior designer. Certainly.
- [28:23]
A
Yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds like you had an extraordinary time and I'm eager to hear from others who were there. I saw some people in High Point who had just come from there. They were exhausted too, Fred. But it sounds like there were incredible things to see. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a roundup of the latest showroom openings and a closer look at Green Row's expansion plans. But first, a quick break. Spring market was an exciting time in the Chelsea House showroom with the introduction of Found by Eric Ross, plus 300 delightful new creations from the Chelsea House design team. Designers enjoyed a week filled with inspiring new ideas, unique lighting introductions, furniture and mirrors using a variation of materials with special touches, and scores of fresh decorative accessories. Take a moment to experience them all today and refresh your imagination@chelsea houseinc.com if you're in the middle of sourcing. Laloy's latest introductions are now available online. That includes the new Rain Collection collection, many other new collections from the brand, and the newest designs from Rifle Paper Company by Laloy. You can explore it all, connect with a sales rep, or find the showroom nearest you@leloyrugs.com.
- [29:55]
B
And we're back. I'm not Dennis Gully. I'm the other guy. But don't worry, Dennis Cully is here. Hi, Dennis.
- [30:02]
A
Hey, Frank. Fred.
- [30:03]
B
Hi. And Caitlin, our editor in chief is here as well. Hi, Caitlin.
- [30:06]
C
Hi there.
- [30:07]
B
I should say Caitlin Peterson should have gotten that in there, too. As if you didn't already know. Anyway, I was unable to make it to High Point, North Carolina for Spring Market. I was in the.
- [30:16]
A
Why is that, Fred?
- [30:18]
B
I was in the High Point, North Carolina of Europe, which is Milan, Italy. But Caitlin and Dennis were on hand to check out High Point Market and they're here to bring us a report on it. Let's get started with quick vibe check. In a word, what was the energy like on the mean streets of High Point? Caitlin, let's start with you.
- [30:35]
C
For me, this market was full of joy. I think maybe we just all hit rock bottom and we're rebounding back up. I'm not sure, but I think so many people, you would walk into a showroom and the energy was, you know, look what we've done. There was a moment of inspiration. You weren't met first with the challenges of the marketplace. You were met with their enthusiasm about what they were launching. And I think that was just sort of palpable. Everywhere you went.
- [31:02]
B
Cool. Joy. Dennis, bring us down. What was market in the word for you?
- [31:07]
A
No, no, I want to echo that. I think my word was unshaken. And I think to Caitlin's point, I think the people that you saw at Market were just. Yep, you've thrown it all at us and we're still here and we're going to go have some fun and we're going to take you around and show you game tables galore and
- [31:30]
B
you're just
- [31:30]
A
gonna have a good time. And I think people were genuinely having a good old time at Market, despite everything that we all know is going on in the world.
- [31:40]
B
Joy Unshaken I think is a good. That's a good title for something, for
- [31:44]
C
a self help book.
- [31:46]
B
Yeah, there you go. So in terms of raw numbers, I know High Point Market. The High Point Market authority provided what the actual attendance figures were. Caitlin, what were they? And let's also get into like how it actually felt on the streets.
- [31:58]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at official registration numbers, this market was pretty flat compared to last fall. The number of companies registered to attend was down 1% from fall. The number of contacts was down 0.1%. So the companies who did come brought more team members, which is pretty great. And I think, you know, the small micro adjustments from last fall aren't really going to be a surprise to anyone. Larger retailers were down 4%. International buyers were up 1%. You know, it was really small fluctuations, but pretty much the same story that we were telling last fall. I think the one thing that the market authority was really excited about was they had over 1200 new buyer companies registered this market. So firms who had never been to market before had signed up and showed up and were walking the mean streets of High Point this season.
- [32:51]
B
How did it actually feel? You know, I mean, I think Market always has a mood aside from the numbers and you know, with Joy, what was it? Unbroken, Dennis.
- [33:00]
A
With unshaken joy.
- [33:01]
B
Unshaken. I'm sorry. With unshaken joy. Dennis, how did it feel to you?
- [33:06]
A
Fred, as you well know, there are always people that want to tell you oh, attendance feels light. It feels really slow. People love to complain about that, but honestly, I was in several wildly busy showrooms. Four Hands was its usual packed partying. Self Arteriors was mobbed. When I stopped by there, Laloy was hopping. I mean, I think it was clear that many designers had decided, okay, I don't need to go two times every year.
- [33:37]
B
Right?
- [33:38]
A
And I get that, and probably some of them don't. It was also clear that there were a lot of international buyers and market participants who were not on hand. I bumped into one of my favorite Canadian designers who told me that she was nervous about even posting pictures from High Point because so many of her. Her fellow Canadians were giving her a hard time about showing up. And a lot of them had told her candidly that they weren't going because they didn't feel comfortable at this moment in time. And I think we've made plenty of international market participants not feel comfortable at this moment. So I don't think that was a big surprise.
- [34:14]
B
And, Caitlin, as you pointed out in your recap article that aired on the site, there were just a lot of strikes against Market this year. It was sort of overlapped a little bit with Salone. There was also people were booking tickets in the middle of the whole TSA shutdown, if I recall correctly. And so the fact that the numbers were flat is no small feat. So were there a lot of Cadillacs driving around? Do people have big piles of tariff refund money that you could just pick up as you walked by? Was that a hot topic at Market? In all seriousness, Caitlin, what was the tariff refund chit chat?
- [34:47]
C
You'd go into a showroom and you'd ask a CEO about it, and they just kind of go, ugh,
- [34:53]
B
free money.
- [34:54]
A
Ugh.
- [34:54]
C
But, I mean, how free is it? You know, I think there was. There was a sense that, you know, look like if and when this comes, that's great, but I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna wait. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for that wire transfer to clear. You know, I think there was also just a sense that, you know, you may get some money back, but this is no windfall. Even if the number is big, it's sort of nothing compared to the way that you've really had to. To squeeze as your margins were compressed in this tariff environment. I predicted last week that this was going to be, I think, rocket fuel for some great new project. That's not true. I think very much. Everywhere I went, people said, like, this might be nice. It Might be helpful, but only because this has been such a challenging period.
- [35:39]
B
Dennis, what about you?
- [35:40]
A
Yeah, I think a lot of people, to Caitlin's point, were very philosophical about it. I think the people, people who I spoke to who had really given thought to the fact that yes, there's meaningful money coming back, told me off the record, when they do get the money back, they're holding onto it and rebuilding their balance sheet and really preparing for what many of them imagine is still going to be a pretty challenging environment for the next six to 12 months. And so I think they were feeling, listen, if we're fortunate enough to actually get a big check back, great, because we're going to need it for the next storms that are coming. Or several of them said, listen, clearly it's an acquisition friendly environment right now and maybe some of that money gets put towards that in the future. But nobody was doing a happy dance around great big tariff refunds. That was clear. And nobody wanted to go on record also saying, oh yeah, we figured out a plan to give it back to a bunch of our designer clients and we've got the mechanism in place to no one, no one was having that conversation.
- [36:47]
C
I will say a couple brands who had identified a tariff surcharge, you know, when you, when brands were weighing how they wanted to pass along this cost to customers, some of them, you know, just raised their prices and baked it in. Some of them put that tariff surcharge as a separate line item. The brands that put it as a line item sort of favoring transparency. A lot of them have heard from their customers saying, well, you know, if you get that money back, we've got some receipts where we'd like our money back too. Which I think is also just an added complication to getting that refund is figuring out how you're going to answer some of those inbounds that are starting to come in.
- [37:22]
B
I know. It's so terribly ironic, of course, because a lot of people did that because they didn't want to create a permanent price increase. You know what I mean?
- [37:28]
C
Yes. No good deed goes unpunished.
- [37:30]
B
Exactly. I do think honestly the conversation is going to change a little bit if and when those checks actually do come in. I still think there's just this sense that is it really going to happen given all the roller coaster everyone's been riding for the past year? So maybe we'll have another conversation if the check's clear.
- [37:47]
A
Fred, just to put a bow on what you were saying, a lot of people said to me, listen, if and when we actually get this money back. Where business is at the time will really determine a lot of how we're feeling and what our plans might be. And I think that that makes a lot of sense.
- [38:04]
B
That High Point Cadillac dealership is really waiting, watching the clock on that. How are designers feeling? We've talked a little about how there've been some empty project pipelines recently, and people have been feeling the pain a little bit. What were your conversations with designers like Caitlin at High Point?
- [38:20]
C
You know, I think last market there were some people who would come up to you at a party and be like, I don't have any jobs. I don't really know why I'm here. And that did not happen. This market, I think if you were in that situation, a lot of designers stayed home. And then if you did come to market, it was because your pipeline had really rebounded, you had work, you were shopping for price projects. You know, I saw a lot of people who were looking for specific projects because this market sort of happened to land right as they were in the conceptual phase for a lot of their new, new, new work. The mood was much better, certainly, than maybe markets in 2025. Dennis, did you see the same?
- [38:57]
A
Very much so. I, I, I think to your point, Caitlin, I think if you weren't busy, you weren't there. And I, I get that. I think the people that were at market were, were keen to see things. And many people told me, including friend of the show told me she bought quite a bit both, both for her shop and her and her firm. And so I think people that I chatted with were, were there to do business. So I'd be surprised if we don't hear some, some good reports from, from companies coming, coming off of High Point.
- [39:29]
C
I think brands felt the same. You know, obviously at the beginning, everyone tells you market is slow. But by Saturday, Sunday, especially Monday, you know, I circled back to that, the Hamilton Wren corridor there, to ihf and a lot of brands there said they had sort of record attendance, record badge scans, and that they were feeling really optimistic about the quotes, the information they had shared, and the enthusiasm their collections were getting with designers who seemed primed to buy. So even the months to come, you know, seem like they're looking pretty good.
- [39:59]
A
Yeah, I mean, I walked into one showroom and they immediately told me, Friday we did a million dollars. So, I mean, you know, so again, I mean, I, I think people can nitpick about the attendance and the numbers and all of that. I think people that were there were very focused And I think designers were upbeat and some of the. How many retailers are left? I'm not sure, but I got the sense that even the retailers felt that they needed merchandise, I guess.
- [40:28]
B
I'm curious what you guys think is driving that optimism from both designers and brands. Just because there's some, many, maybe down signals out there. The housing market's still pretty frozen. There's still a kind of on again, off again war. The stock market's pretty high, but it's been high and low fuel prices are up. What do you guys think is pushing all this optimism? Not that I'm against it. I'm just curious if there is a reason for it that you guys were able to suss out. Caitlin, what do you think?
- [40:54]
C
I sat next to a designer at dinner who said a lot of the new work in her pipeline was from clients that who had looked at 20, 25 and sort of frozen. They had this project that they needed to get done, but they didn't have the confidence to move forward. And at some point, I think there were enough bad compounding signals in their life that they just came to the conclusion that it can't get worse, it's only going to get more expensive. And now was as good a time as any. That's so dark. But it's also, I think, very true and maybe sort of a collective energy. I felt that sentiment a lot. This market. Just that. That, you know, it's not like doing a design project is ever gonna cost less. And so now might as well be your moment. And that, you know, clients had jumped on board, designers were responding to that and just trying to move forward.
- [41:41]
B
Like chaos and confusion have become the new normal. So people are just like, just do
- [41:45]
C
a design project, too.
- [41:46]
A
Yeah, I do think. And Alex Schuford made this point to me in a conversation that I had with him that had we arrived at Market Fred, to your point, and the stock market had been down 15 or 20%. A very different environment. I think the fact that the stock market was hanging in there and that the AI story was still feeling positive and driving a lot of the big tech stocks. And that, in fact, those big tech stocks had recovered quite a bit from their recent pullbacks, I think was giving the market a lot more confidence than it would have had were the stock market not hanging in there.
- [42:24]
C
I heard a lot of whispers in the margins, just that, you know, well, the second the market crashes, like, we're toast, you know. But I think that for now, you know.
- [42:31]
B
Yeah, exactly. For now, the weather was good and the market is up. Yeah. Well, let's talk about AI a little bit then as well. You know, I feel like we're, I don't know, eight markets into the AI revolution, so to speak, and sometimes you feel like it's the only thing people are interested in. Sometimes you feel like it doesn't matter at all, I guess. I'm curious how it reared its head at market, if it did. Caitlin, what do you think?
- [42:51]
C
The number of AI themed events really stood out to me. Just that in all of the programming and conversations happening at market, so many brands wanted to host conversations, so many designers wanted to chime in and say, like, here's how the best way, you know, here's the best way to use AI in your business. And then I think on the product side, some brands were talking about just using it to stress test some of their ideas. I think, you know, I went in one showroom where, you know, the CEO was like, oh, like, I wanted to know what the base of this chair would look like different. So I just put it into Claude and we tried out a different base. We tested out a different stripe. You know, do we want to build this? Do we want to try it? And that it was a good way to validate a creative team's idea before you started building prototypes. I think those are probably some of the. The more common refrains that I heard this season.
- [43:38]
B
Dennis, what about you?
- [43:39]
A
I definitely had a lot of conversations about AI job displacement. And to that point, Fred, one CEO gifted me two audiobooks to listen to, which I think will tell you everything about how this CEO was feeling. One book is entitled the End of the World is Just Beginning, and the other, if anybody builds it, everyone dies.
- [44:03]
B
No unbroken joy from that person.
- [44:06]
A
No. No. So there was. It was interesting, and I had this conversation with several different CEOs who really wanted to talk about, okay, how long is it going to take before this huge swath of our customer base really is displaced and what does it mean and how do we plan for it? And does it also coincide with, as one CEO pointed out to me, a huge chunk of baby boomers turning 80 and maybe many of them start to pass on as well. So as, I mean, for all of the sort of high energy and the unshaken, joyful energy among many on the floors, I was surprised that the AI subject so quickly, with many turned to, what are we going to do about this real job loss issue?
- [44:56]
B
Well, it's hard to plan for the robot apocalypse, I would imagine. It is really funny how the conversation on the one Hand is, here's a cool tip. On the other hand, it's like, well, oh, we're all going to die in 10 years. So. So what do we do about that?
- [45:06]
C
You can optimize your workflow until then.
- [45:08]
B
Yeah, exactly. Why not? Yeah. Why not carve out a little more time until we're all taken over? Yeah. What about other hot topics at market? Caitlin, I know you had a lot of conversations about foam. What's going on there?
- [45:19]
C
You know, about a month ago, there was a fire in a chemical plant in Houston. That is one of the key ingredients getting foam to the furniture industry and them. You know, I don't know that we're really feeling the effects of that now. Right. Like, those shortages aren't going to be reflected in any of the price tags that were on the floor of products at market. You know, confidentially, a couple brand leaders were saying that they've taken three or four price increases on foam in the last month or two, you know, and that more is coming. You know, some, some brands are starting to feel sort of the restrictions as those chemicals are in short supply. Other brands are saying, you know, look like we're okay because we are very important to our supply suppliers. And so they're flexing sort of that position to make sure that their foam supply is so far not disrupted. But it's definitely something that manufacturers are navigating. And that was sort of lingering quietly in the margins, I think. Not a conversation anyone on the manufacturing side wanted to be having with their customers right now, but certainly something in the back of their minds. And that I think all of us are going to start to see and feel in the next couple months to come.
- [46:27]
B
Maybe that's where all the, all that tariff refund money will go.
- [46:29]
C
It's all going, no kidding.
- [46:31]
B
No, no Cadillacs, all foam. Did that come up for you as well, Dennis? What about higher fuel prices? I've noticed, you know, the fuel surcharge has been showing up a lot, a lot of designer invoices. I wonder if people talked about that.
- [46:41]
A
The foam issue came up in that. Several CEOs said to me, I'm surprised people aren't talking about this more. Several CEOs just said, of all the issues, this is a serious issue because many of them are. Remember last time there was a foam shortage? And I remember it very well, too, because I was in a whole series of workrooms at the time, and they all showed me where they had hidden foam in back rooms and extra spaces that they had rented. And so nobody wants to Go back to that time. And nobody wants to go back to, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. This lead time is going to start to get stretched out again because they're so happy. Happy to be over that. What were you going to say, Caitlin?
- [47:21]
C
I'll say it's not just lead times either. I mean, if you have ordered, you know what you're going to put on your line for next week, the week after that, the week after that, and you don't have the foam for it. That's a whole line of your factory that sits with not that much to do because of a material shortage. And so, you know, the costs of having people come to work with no work for them to do also really start to compound some of those challenges.
- [47:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, interestingly, Fred, about the fuel charges, couple different companies told me that they had actually given a lot of their workers gas cards. Chaduck mentioned to me that they had given gas cards to workers in the factory and were trying to be very aware of the fact that this hits that percentage of the population much harder because fuel represents just a bigger overall percentage of the household budget. So it's real. And there wasn't a conversation so often when you go to North Carolina, when you. And you come from New York. People in North Carolina love to tell you how inexpensive everything is relative to New York, but they weren't feeling that way this time around. Inflation was a huge topic of conversation across the board, just how expensive everything had gotten. And also just the issue with if this war does drag on, the many other materials besides oil that are impacted that everyone is quite concerned. Concerned about.
- [48:41]
B
All right, well, we've hit fuel, foam and AI. Let's pivot over to product. That's my transition there.
- [48:47]
A
Yes.
- [48:48]
B
What was, what was going on? Was there a lot of new product? I feel like market has been a little bit, you know, skimpy on big new debuts. What about this time, Caitlin?
- [48:57]
C
We had no shortage of exciting debuts this time. And I think that was maybe part of the energy, part of the mood on the street was just everywhere you walked in, there was great stuff to see. You know, I think we've seen a lot in the last year, maybe year or two of, you know, hey, this was a bestseller. So we made it a console, you know, and I think the story this market was we tapped this designer collaboration or we reached into our archive, or we, you know, commissioned this entire new product suite. And there was a lot of new. And it was beautiful. It was a very traditional leaning market, but maybe modernized A little bit for today's customer. There was a real menswear moment happening. Super tailored, lots of plaids, but also kind of a ruffled scalloped sweetness that was really just chic and fun. The introductions, showroom after showroom after showroom were exciting and abundant and it just felt great.
- [49:53]
B
Dennis, what was the ivory boucle index? Where are we at right now?
- [49:57]
A
You know, interestingly, I wasn't bombarded with ivory boucle. I don't know about you, you, Caitlyn. I, I thought I saw a lot more dark green than I saw ivory boucle. And, and I thought there were actually some very sophisticated dark colors. I, I, I thought there were, I thought there were some highly marketable new products being introduced. I thought Barry Benson's new collection, this anniversary collection with Highland House was really impressive. I, I thought David Phoenix has a new collection with hickory chair, which I also think I'm hoping to order a desk from there soon, David. So let's get on that. But I thought there were, yeah, I thought there were a lot of great products. I thought, you know, apropos of the unshaken joyfulness and I joked about it at the top of the show, amazing how many mahjong tables were being introduced and just sort of game tables in general. Maybe you're not eating out as much, maybe you're at home with a game. And there are a couple other things I want to get to. But Caitlin, what else sort of jumped out at you?
- [51:02]
C
I think what jumped out at me was really the splash that so many designer collaborations made this market. Duval Reynolds launched House of Duvall, you know, his own brand within the Sherrill Furniture family of brands. And you know, Dennis, you mentioned Barry Benson, but Charlotte Lucas had a beautiful line for Taylor King. David Phoenix. Naz Nazawa was back with Corbett Lighting for her second collection. And it was a showstopper. Abner Henry tapped four designers to do sort of vignette collections in its showroom that were just extraordinary and did maybe the most complete job I've ever seen of communicating effectively that they can really do everything. And it was pretty electric.
- [51:46]
A
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think Thomas Pheasant was introducing some pieces with Baker that were really impressive and sophisticated and no surprise there. And I know he's got a lot more coming up with them in the future, but that looked really beautiful. I also thought what Courtney Bishop did with Ahmadi and that entire space and we'll talk about the whole design social pop up space, but I thought that that was really Brilliantly done. I loved how Courtney Bishop wove in some Verellon pieces and made them really colorful and fun and. And mixed in some vintage pieces as well in that display. I thought that was a place you wanted to stay and hang out, and I did.
- [52:30]
B
Well, let's talk about the Design Social pop up then. How did that go? And were there any sort of interesting showroom moments that seemed like 313space continues to be a winner. What was the sort of real estate sizzle on the streets, Caitlin?
- [52:43]
C
You know, I think we saw a lot of growth sort of at outskirts in different corners of market. And Amadi Collective with the Design Social pop up is a great example of that. You know, it's located a little further afield. Right. 313 space, when it opened a few markets ago, felt kind of far away, but it's so exciting that it really drew designers out to it. You walk two more blocks and you get to the Amati Collective. It's the old Schwung space. It's pretty rustic. But they had really assembled this great group of, you know, a lot of independent, boutique, artisan driven brands, including, I think 27 design social pop up exhibitors. And it was really fun to see fabric like that in High Point Market, to see nude, to see painterly, you know, to see just a lot of small brands really showing up, looking for connection. But I thought this was a really great way for them to connect with designers from all over the country.
- [53:36]
B
Dennis, did you see any cool showrooms or anything new that caught your eye?
- [53:39]
A
Well, I mean, just to echo what Caitlin was just saying about Design Social, I thought that was great.
- [53:45]
B
Great.
- [53:45]
A
Brooks Morrison took me around and introduced me to every single exhibitor there. And which was. Which was quite fun. And. And I think they were all really excited to be there. And I thought that a lot of the conversations that I had were around, what else can we do to bring more people to High Point? What are interesting activations? I thought Design Social was great for that purpose. You mentioned 3.1.3. I thought 313 looked even better. Better had a whole host. I think there were 15 new exhibitors in that space. They threw a spectacular dinner party there Saturday night that was just this moss covered banquet table with candles everywhere. And it was in celebration of Alfredo Paredes and Kravit and their collaboration. But the team from Schwung and 313just really put on an incredible show. And I felt like people were really talking about, yes, how can we build on 313? How can we build on some of this new energy. What else can we do to bring people here? Caitlin I don't know if you felt that the KBIS NKBA pop up did a lot along those lines, but I think people were encouraged to at least see that back again. And I think everybody was talking about what else can we do to get more people here.
- [55:04]
C
Totally. It was fun. The NKBA space added a really lovely outdoor tent kind of to its setup, which was a great venue. I hosted a panel there about lighting on Saturday morning, you know, and I met several young kitchen designers who were in High Point, you know, trying to soak up best practices, discover new brands, and also sort of see what the whole High Point scene was about. And it was so great. I was glad that I had that experience sort of towards the start of market, because then I then saw them all over market at furniture showrooms and really in the mix. And I think that is what that NKB activation is supposed to be, right? Bringing people to get, you know, a taste of the kitchen and bath space, but also really immerse themselves in the furniture industry at large. And it was just, it was a fun sort of proof point for me that that model is, is really poised to be successful, you know, and next market, I think they're doing a full refresh of that space, so there'll be a lot for us to go back and look at.
- [56:04]
B
Then I wonder, are there any 17th century Italian palazzos in High Point? They could turn into a furniture, furniture show.
- [56:11]
A
There need to be.
- [56:12]
B
That does seem to work, I've noticed. Yeah, I think we're almost at the end here. But I'm curious, you know, what do you guys think Will stay, Will stay with you? We've experienced joy. We've been unbroken. How are we going to remember spring High Point market? Caitlin?
- [56:25]
C
Well, I think I'm going to bring it right back to Joy. You know, one, there's this feeling of walking into so many of these showrooms and kind of having this moment of going, that's beautiful. I think there are some vignettes, some merchandising choices from this market that I will remember for a long, long time time, which I'm really grateful for, actually. I think it was a really inspiring way to spend the week. I also, you know, was chatting with one marketing executive at a brand who said, you know, I've never laughed more at Market than this spring. That perfectly captures the mood on the street. I haven't had more fun at Market in years. I think it was just, it was a Great kind of celebration of the best of the industry.
- [57:06]
B
Dennis Brown.
- [57:07]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that there was again with the energy and I think everybody wanting to get together for parties again. I think people were feeling very much in the event mood. I come back to 313 in part because I know that they're contemplating opening a real sit down restaurant there. And I think there's talk about perhaps a boutique hotel being added into the mix. I think there's always conversation. This market more than ever around, hey, what else can we do to attract people to come and stay? And I think people are thinking much more about hospitality. And who knows, maybe our friends at RH are showing them some ideas of what it could mean to have a restaurant or to have some other ways of really entertaining people. The wine bar downstairs at 313 was always busy and I think there's just a lot more room for people to entertain and to think about hospitality. So I'd be surprised if we don't see more of that. And listen, maybe it's a tie in with the nkba. Lots of kitchens. Maybe there's a whole host of things you can do there.
- [58:16]
B
I hope only one wine bar. I feel like they need at least 4. Is it RH typically puts in there. All right, well, that's a wrap on our conversation. Caitlin, thanks so much for being here.
- [58:26]
C
Thanks for me having Dennis.
- [58:28]
B
I will talk to you in five minutes.
- [58:30]
A
Fred, thanks so much. And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [58:46]
B
Mohair caught my eye. As you may or may not have known, Dennis, there's been a big campaign from PETA to eliminate, eliminate mohair and as used in any kind of fabric production, whether it's for furniture or fashion. And they've been successful. Macy's, Bloomingdale's and the TJX brands, which includes HomeGoods, have agreed to eliminate mohair from, from their selections. And you know, this is interesting because, you know, apparently the, the goats who are, you know, used to produce mohair are mistreated, at least according to PETA's reporting. And you know, I, I don't know that I have a take on it beyond I want goats to be treated well. But I really do wonder if this will sort of bleed into the higher end because I'm not sure if any of the high, you know, the sort of, the more high end Retailers that we talk about are looking at, you know, limited mohair. I don't know if showrooms are thinking about getting rid of mohair. I wonder if this will expand. I'm definitely curious to see where the story goes.
- [59:35]
A
I'm curious to see as well. And I think we all want goats to be treated better, Fred, So I hope that this, that this has some legs to it, no pun intended. But I think that this has gotten a lot of attention and it should. So I'd be surprised if we don't hear more announcements soon.
- [59:50]
B
What caught your eye this week?
- [59:52]
A
Well, Fred, and try not to get emotional when I, when I talk about this, but just before we came on air was Jerome Powell's final press conference as chairman of the Federal Reserve. That's right. And, and he said that, listen, he's actually going to be staying on perhaps for a while, though not as Fed chairman. And rates were left unchanged, which was a surprise to absolutely no one in the world. But what was a surprise was that internally there were actually a group of dissenters. There were four, in fact. One who wants to, of course, lower rates. That would be the recent appointee from President Trump and several others on the board who want the language to be changed so that it doesn't suggest that the Fed is leaning towards lowering rates in the future. And that is a big change because many are starting to think, hey, are rates going to be coming down or might they even need to go up? Because you know what's not dead yet, Fred? Inflation. That's right. So, anyway, it's interesting. It's rare to see that kind of a division. I can't remember when there were four dissenting votes in a committee meeting where they ended up not doing anything. So we'll, we'll have to keep an eye on that. But there are, there are some changing winds, to be sure. And the new Fed chairman who comes in soon is, is clearly going to have his work cut out for him. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get into touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.
- [61:30]
B
Com.
- [61:31]
A
This episode was produced by Fred Nicolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.