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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: What happened at High Point? Plus: Why Williams-Sonoma is suing Dupe.com
01:12:52
BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus and host Dennis Scully discuss the biggest news in the design industry. Later, BOH editor in chief Kaitlin Petersen joins the show to recap High Point Market.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is business of home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on I'll be recapping High Point Market with boh's editorial team. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including design manager's new acquisitions, why William sonoma is suing dupe.com and Amazon's rumored $20 sofa. To do all that, I'm joined by Of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
Fred Nicholaus
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:37]
Dennis Scully
Great. How you doing?
- [00:38]
Fred Nicholaus
Good. Happy Halloween to you.
- [00:41]
Dennis Scully
Thanks so much.
- [00:42]
Fred Nicholaus
Listeners can't see, but Dennis is wearing a perfectly appropriate autumnal orange sweater.
- [00:48]
Dennis Scully
I am feeling fall. That is clear.
- [00:51]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. I still, I have maybe two. We're recording this on Wednesday, so I have about 24 hours to come up with my brilliant design oriented Halloween costume. I'm thinking of just like stuffing a bunch of catalogs in my sweater and calling myself an RH catalog. I don't know, like really, really thick popping out on either side. Maybe that'll be. Maybe that'll be my winner. How was High Point for you? Have you shaken off the High Point hangover yet?
- [01:14]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm still recovering a little bit, but I loved all of the talk about how many steps you got in and fellow High Point attendees got in. That was good to see.
- [01:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Share your step count, your High Point step count with me on Instagram. I think we're going to be talking about Market with Caitlin Peterson, our editor in chief, later on in the show. But it was, we did a live event. I guess it's too late to plug it because it already happened, but it was really fun. We did a live version of the Thursday show in this Surya showroom and it was great to meet listeners. So that was certainly the highlight of my market.
- [01:47]
Dennis Scully
I don't know about you spending time with you, Fred. That was the highlight of my market. Yes, absolutely.
- [01:52]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Well, on Monday you spent some time with Susanna Simone Pietri of Chango, a great designer and a really great conversation. I hope people caught it on their flight back from Market because it was.
- [02:03]
Dennis Scully
A very deep one indeed, a powerful conversation which I think Susannah wasn't sure she was ready to have. But when the time came, she decided to jump in with both feet and we had a conversation about some of the places that she had worked for in the past and the topic of toxic work environments came up and we had quite a candid and wide ranging conversation around it. So I hope people will listen to it because it was an important conversation.
- [02:34]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean you're kind of dancing around it, but I'll just say it plainly. So it's some of her past offices.
- [02:40]
Dennis Scully
Ever the diplomat.
- [02:41]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I mean, early on in her career, she was working for these firms, these other firms, and among their client lists were Jeffrey Epstein and Sean Combs. And even at the time, before all the revelations came out, Jeffrey Epstein made people feel uncomfortable. And when you go through something like that, the lesson of really vetting your clients is not just this abstract idea, vitally important. I think Susannah really drove that home. I do think the interior design industry has come a long way. It's probably not as bad as it used to be, but we can kid ourselves into thinking that everything is great now and there are no toxic workplaces anymore. Whereas, she points out, you only have to look at Glassdoor, this employer review site, and you can see that there are a lot of firms with unhappy employees out there. I think that was a nice wake up call. Look, it was more than just that. It was a really fun conversation. She's a very inspiring, funny, thoughtful, introspective person. There's a lot of business insight. It's just a powerful conversation on a lot of different levels. So I would really urge people to give it a listen.
- [03:41]
Dennis Scully
As you say, she opened up about all of that, and I think what was most important to her was how unsafe people at the time felt in the various offices where she had been. And she wanted to be sure with her own firm that she creates a really safe and friendly and supportive environment. And that was a. That was a bit of a journey that she went through, growing into that role as a good leader, which she also talks about a great deal. So again, there is a lot in this week's show and I certainly encourage everyone to listen to it. All right, we're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first, a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Anthem plus Showering only from Kohler. Anthem plus invites you to transport your body and mind with every shower. It combines water, steam, light and sound in a fully immersive sensory experience with custom settings to match any mood and enhance any routine. Discover how you can personalize your escape with Anthem plus smart showering at Kohler.com/Showers. This podcast is also sponsored by Claffs, the world leader in sauna luxury at home. Wellness rooms are on the rise and CLAFFS designs saunas for the discerning eye. With nearly a century of storied craftsmanship and innovation, CLAFFS has perfected the art of sauna the result? Distinct and elegant designs that harness the transformative powers of heat. There are saunas and then there are claps. Saunas. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit claffsusa.com that's K L A F S A dot com and we're back. First up, Fred, the Cohen foreclosure drama.
- [05:51]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, so this one's a little bit of a promo or a teaser. We're going to really talk about this more next week, but listeners will probably know that Charles Cohen, the billionaire landlord who owns the D and D building, the Dakota Design center in Houston and the PDC in la, is in a spot of bother. He's taken out this enormous loan from a company called Fortress and it went in default. Now they're suing him. And there's a big auction scheduled for a big suite of properties that includes the Dakota, scheduled for next Friday. In the run up to that, there's been all kinds of coverage, mostly from the Real Deal, which is a publication that covers the commercial real estate industry about all these things that Cohen is doing to move money around and what these audits of his various properties are showing. We're going to get into it in more depth next Thursday because the auction is Friday, the following day. Stay tuned for that. It will certainly be the biggest news story of next week, I'm sure.
- [06:48]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. Lots more to talk about. As Fred suggested, we get the sense that some moves are being made and we'll know a lot more soon. But definitely stay tuned to businessofhome.com for a lot more news coming your way on that front. But jumping into the actual story we're going to talk about now, Design Manager went shopping. Fred.
- [07:09]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. This week Design Manager acquired two fellow software companies, Design Spec and Logic Design Systems. Both specialize in the contract and hospitality side of the industry, marking the start of a strategy shift for Design Manager. Dennis, what'd you think?
- [07:23]
Dennis Scully
I know this is one of your favorite topics, Fred, so let's jump in and refresh people's memory about what Design Manager is before we get into the exciting war between the big ones.
- [07:35]
Fred Nicholaus
This is my sports. This is my Super Bowl. Is the war to control the interior design software space. Yes. Design Manager is, if not the oldest, certainly one of the oldest project management tools that has been in this world. I think it started actually in the 1980s, so it's been around for a long time. It's changed hands a couple times and currently it's owned by a private equity company, as is Its primary competitor, Studio Designer. The two are often confused for each other and I do think we're kind of in a period of consolidation where those two kind of the biggest players are in the process of kind of acquiring and growing and trying to be the one true winner of this life or death competition. But so Design Manager is a project management software and they've just bought these two smaller companies.
- [08:21]
Dennis Scully
And it was interesting when we had Keith Granite on just recently and he talked about some of the thinking behind his strategy in making the My DOMA acquisition. A lot of it was in part to sort of capture the early stage of a lot of these designers who might be using the more elaborate software in the future. How does that fit in with this announcement?
- [08:44]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, of course, Keith Granite is the CEO, I think, and maybe co founder of Studio Designer, which acquired Mydoma. See, there's a lot of names here, guys, but basically Studio Designer strategy is they wanted to acquire a piece of software in the instance of Mydoma, that worked with starting designers and solopreneurs people earlier on in their career. So the idea was we're going to acquire a company that works with starting out firms. They're going to use our software and then when they get big enough, we're going to bring them up to Studio Design and sort of create like a pipeline of new business for ourself and kind of own the residential interior design business vertically, top to bottom. So what Design Manager is doing on the other hand is a little bit different. So both of the companies that they acquired design Spec and logic design systems, which frankly I'd never heard of, are more on the contract and hospitality side of the industry. So the idea, the CEO Kevin Lee told me, is to do a more horizontal strategy to sort of work with contract and hospitality designers and also give residential interior designers the tools to do a contract or hospitality job. You know the classic scenarios, you're working with a client on their, they love working with you, they want to bring you in for their business. But maybe, you know, it gets into specifications that are more complicated, the volumes are different, the vendors are different, and you know, the thesis is we'll give you the tools to do a boutique hotel, to do an office as well if you want.
- [10:03]
Dennis Scully
Right. What's that? Residential client. You also own a boutique hotel. No problem. My software is ready to handle it.
- [10:10]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I think, I mean, to be fair, I think it's more often the place of business as opposed to a boutique hotel. But yes, that would be the dream scenario.
- [10:17]
Dennis Scully
No, no, no, I like that, and I think many designers are hoping that their residential clients also own a boutique hotel, and so they like where this is going. So what's the broader context of all of this in your passion about the design software wars, Fred, what does this tell us about the latest in the landscape?
- [10:38]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I think it's really interesting because for so long, this space has been so fragmented. There's like a million small companies that each have 500 clients. I think we're starting to see actual consolidation. Studio Designer says they have 20,000 users. Design Manager wouldn't say exactly how many users they have, but this adds hundreds of firms and thousands of users into their portfolio, so they're getting bigger, too. I think my big question here is, can you really develop a software package that works with both the residential and contract side of the industry? Because in theory, they are similar. They're both interior design. But I often find that those two halves of the industry are really very differently run, at least culturally. You can always tell a contract designer, because when they're talking about interior design, they're like, oh, do you do resi work? Are you resi? Do you know what resi is? And nothing sounds more tinned to the ear of a residential designer than hearing resi. I don't know if you've heard that as well.
- [11:35]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I feel like, to your point, I feel like so many residential designers talk about not really being taken seriously by commercial designers.
- [11:44]
Fred Nicholaus
It's that resi. That resi. It's an insult.
- [11:46]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. It's definitely a pejorative resi. Right?
- [11:51]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. But I understand why, obviously, because the commercial design industry is huge. And how cool would it be if there was one tool that worked across the industry and there'd be all kinds of efficiencies? Imagine if vendors could plug into it as well in an efficient way. So I think it's a very ambitious goal, and I understand why they're doing it. And I think it's really interesting now that we have kind of the battle lines drawn. You know, studio designers trying to take it vertically. Design Manager is trying to do it horizontally, and we're going to see who wins.
- [12:19]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, I know we were waiting for the next move from Design Manager, and so here it is, the response. And now we'll see what this leads to. Listen, I hate to pull you away from this subject, Fred, but we're going to talk about some trade show news next. Okay. Earlier this month, German furniture fair imm Cologne canceled its January 2025 edition after several key vendors pulled out Meanwhile, fellow German fair Heim Textil is on the up and up. Its exhibitor levels have outpaced last year, almost reaching pre pandemic status. What's going on here?
- [12:55]
Fred Nicholaus
Fred Vas dengstu Herrschkali.
- [12:58]
Dennis Scully
I was hoping you'd whip out some German for us.
- [13:00]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, this item is nothing but an excuse to whip out my kindergarten level German listeners behind the scenes. We were going to talk about a fun TikTok trend, but I insisted that we talk about.
- [13:09]
Dennis Scully
But oh no, we got to talk about two German trade shows instead.
- [13:14]
Fred Nicholaus
German trade shows indeed. I don't think most listeners probably will have never been to IMM Cologne. It's a huge German trade fair. At one time, this enormous event, over 120,000 people, I think, went to the 2019 edition, which makes it one of the biggest trade shows out there. And so it was kind of a shock when it canceled its upcoming fair for next year because it had been such, you know, a fixture of the European trade show scene, mostly focused around furniture, kind of like the, you know, the German high point is maybe a good analogy. Meanwhile, Heim textile, which of course is focused on textiles and fabrics, maybe a little bit more familiar for American designers, seems to be doing pretty well. So I wrote, you know, an article about this for business of Home looking at why the big furniture fair in Germany canceled, whereas the textile fair seems to be doing well. And I actually do think, all joking aside, it is kind of an interesting story.
- [14:05]
Dennis Scully
No, no. And all joking aside, I was discuss discussing this with the lovely Mrs. Scully who has attended both shows in the past. And she was actually pretty surprised to hear this news about Cologne because as you say, that was a giant show. And I'd love to actually discuss why we think this is happening now. And I know that some people reconsidered perhaps after Covid, but what do you really think is going on?
- [14:33]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, well, I mean, I think, you know, this will not be news to some of our listeners, but furniture manufacturers do not like doing trade shows really, because it's just, it's so expensive. I mean, you know, compare the expense of doing a furniture trade show to like a cookware trade show. You know, making the merchandise is so much more expensive. Transporting it is so much more expensive. You need more space or to make difficult decisions around what you're actually going to exhibit. Damages are more expensive. It's just, it's a very expensive proposition. Furniture is also less trend driven than a lot of other home categories. And so the idea of meeting so frequently a lot of furniture Manufacturers are like, ah, do we have to? Do we have to? Especially kind of in the digital age where a lot of this stuff can be done online. There was a lot of baked in hesitation for manufacturers even coming into Covid around stuff like Cologne. But Covid was just devastating for this fair. I think when they came back after two years away, you went from 120,000 people to 30,000 people in 2023. Enormous drop off. And so what happened behind the scenes is some of the large exhibitors pulled out and that created a cascade where once you had the big people who weren't show, the smaller vendors didn't show and pretty quickly it was just economically unfeasible for them to keep going.
- [15:42]
Dennis Scully
No, no, no, it makes sense. And the German economy in general has been struggling and the situation in Europe, we forget how much more impacted the European economy in general has been by the war and by a host of other issues that have impacted them as well. So there are a lot of reasons that this is challenging but interesting that heimtech's deal, as you say, perhaps more. More trend and innovation driven, continues to remain strong.
- [16:11]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. I mean, I think just textiles are easier from a trade show perspective. It's cheaper to make the stuff, it's cheaper to get the stuff there. It is more trend driven, as you said. So people are really compelled to go every year and stay on top of their mills. And there's a lot of competition for who's going to get which mill to commit to what. And so there's a natural incentive to come back every year. They too were hit by Covid. Their attendance was down when they came back after a couple of years away, but it's popped back up. It's almost to the exhibition count is almost to pre Covid levels. And there's also some interesting things happening in textiles, like carpets and rugs, for example, has been such a hit category across the board. I think they had something like 200 new vendors at Heim Textile or they carved out two new exhibition halls for carpets and rugs. And so there's a lot more to kind of celebrate in that world than there is in furniture. So I sort of feel like this is kind of like my article was called the Tale of Two Trade Shows. And it really gets at the distinction between how different pieces of the home industry are recovering from the wild swings of COVID sort of in different ways and at different speeds.
- [17:15]
Dennis Scully
So coming back from High Point, I mean, do you think there's a larger message about the future of trade shows in this Story, Fred Well, I mean.
- [17:23]
Fred Nicholaus
High Point is in some ways kind of an exception because what they've cleverly done is made it so instead of renting out a booth, you buy a building so you don't have to make the decision. Every trade show, you just, you're there, you have the space. I also think High Point kind of has really locked itself in as a social gathering as much as it is simply a place to buy and sell. I think High Point has some things going for it that IMM Clone did not. I do think there is some movement around trade shows in general, though. You see, in Europe, Salone isn't going anywhere, but a lot of the big manufacturers are having their events in town as opposed to at the fair itself. These citywide shows like Three Days of Design in Copenhagen are gaining traction. I think people are just trying to find a new way to meet up in person that's more cost effective, that feels a little bit more direct, it feels a little more vibey, as opposed to kind of the classic trade show model. So none of these things have gone away, or only one of these things has gone away. But there is clearly a lot of movement here, and we're going to see more changes in the years to come, I'm sure.
- [18:24]
Dennis Scully
No, I agree. I remember that Deco off the big show in Paris was people leaving Maison obj. And so for a long time, people have peeled away and gone into other things. And so. So it's not surprising to see this. I think Highpoint, as we'll talk about in our recap, is doing some interesting things to possibly expand the attendance and the audience there, which I think is quite smart because you do have to work to keep people coming back, especially a show that's twice a year. So definitely worth watching. Okay, up next, we're going to talk about dupe.com, which is in some trouble. Fred?
- [19:02]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. William Sonoma has filed a lawsuit against dupe.com alleging that the site made false claims in an attempt to manufacture outrage among consumers and go viral. Dennis dupe.com what do you think?
- [19:15]
Dennis Scully
How fitting for the time we're in to manufacture outrage. Yes. It's part of our culture today, and they certainly got a lot of excitement stirred up, and William Sonoma didn't like it.
- [19:26]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, outrage was definitely trending at High Point Market this season. I mean, we should maybe recap kind of what dupe.com is. In case you're not familiar, we talked about this a few months ago when it debuted, but it's a site. It's basically a price comparison engine. It's not that different really, functionally than a Google reverse image search. You find a URL of a product you like, you plug it into dupe.com, it'll return a list of lookalike products at a variety of prices. And if you want something that's the cheapest of the cheap, you can get that. If you want the most expensive thing, you can get that, too. And like many shopping sites, I think dupe.com takes a commission on at least some sale. So it went viral because they market it very cleverly. Certainly many people in the furniture industry were not too happy about that at the time when I was working on this article. But now there's an actual lawsuit to kind of dig into that has been brought by one of the biggest retailers.
- [20:15]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no. And We've talked about dupe.com a lot on the show, and people did get pretty worked up. And I wouldn't be surprised if some people are delighted to hear this news that we have a little bit of.
- [20:26]
Fred Nicholaus
Schadenfreude to bring in. Another German word. Yes.
- [20:29]
Dennis Scully
What is the lawsuit actually alleging?
- [20:32]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. So, I mean, I think, interestingly, the lawsuit is not about dupes themselves. William Sonoma's not saying, oh, dupe.com copied our chair design. They're more about the advertisements that dupe.com would put up to promote itself. And it's sort of interesting because, like, William Sonoma and the lawsuit calls these things advertisements. I'm sure dupe.com would just call them like TikTok posts, but basically a series of videos in which actually, one of the founders. I'm not sure how to say his name. Bobby Goshal or Bobby Gossel. Posted at the time of dupe.com's launch that. Talk about what dupe.com does. The premise of a lot of these videos is this guy saying, like, I got scammed by a furniture pricing scam, or furniture companies all try and scam you with their pricing. I fell for a classic furniture price scam. It really upset me. I decided to fight back. Let me show you what I built.
- [21:15]
Dennis Scully
Next time you go shopping online, go.
- [21:17]
Fred Nicholaus
To the product URL.
- [21:18]
Dennis Scully
Type dupe.com in front of the URL.
- [21:21]
Fred Nicholaus
Dupe.com scroll down, it's going to show.
- [21:25]
Dennis Scully
You the original product.
- [21:26]
Fred Nicholaus
So this is that beautiful sofa.
- [21:27]
Dennis Scully
2,400 bucks for this sofa. But if you scroll down, it's going to show you 70% off, 80% off.
- [21:34]
Fred Nicholaus
90% off deals on the same or similar items.
- [21:37]
Dennis Scully
It's a great product.
- [21:38]
Fred Nicholaus
Try it.
- [21:38]
Dennis Scully
We just launched it just went viral. Maybe you like it.
- [21:41]
Fred Nicholaus
What that, you know, audio is playing over is this guy using dupe.com and I think in that video it might have been an our house table or something like that. But what William Sonoma is saying is that he made these videos over their product and implicated that you could get the exact same sort of white label product at a cheaper price. But what they're saying is, no, the stuff that we design is exclusive to us. There are no white labeled Pottery Barn sofas that you can get a cheaper deal on. He also misrepresented the price of it in the video. Essentially they just say that he crosses a lot of like, ethical and potentially legal lines in advertisingdupe.com, so hence this lawsuit.
- [22:14]
Dennis Scully
I decided to fight back. That was his message. I've been a victim just like you, and I've decided to fight back. And good news, I've created, created this thing and it's going to save you.
- [22:27]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because like, when I first saw the marketing for dupe.com, obviously you know that this is the founder of dupe.com saying I fell for a scam and there's like 10 different versions of the same video. Like, you know, it's not like he really actually fell for a scam. I don't know if viewers of the content think it's real, but it was very clear to me, like, oh yeah, this is just a marketing gimmick. And I don't think that that guy would deny that it's just a marketing gimmick. It kind of gets into a weird territory of like, is a random video that you post on TikTok required to be legal in the same way that a full page ad in Architectural Digest is. And you know what their lawsuit is alleging is that yes, it does. And this is bs. I don't know. What do you think, Dan?
- [23:07]
Dennis Scully
I think that the message that we're going to show you dupes, we're going to show you various prices for similar looking pieces, but also we recognize that you've been duped. Again, the I decided to fight back conversation. Oh, you poor victims who have been taken in by some of these evil big retailers that are overcharging you for these items that you could easily find for so much less. In a way, I'm glad that somebody stepped in just to question all of that messaging.
- [23:41]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. But on the other hand, there is an element of truth to it, right? I mean, There is white labeling of products that occurs across various. I think that's why it's so powerful is because there is, you know, this does happen. There are products that get sold at different prices across various E Commerce. It's rarely like, oh, 2000 versus 200. That's almost never the case. It's usually like a split of maybe $100 across various retailers. But I think he's very cleverly tapping into a sense of consumer outrage against, oh, look at all these corporations trying to take advantage of us. And also a huge amount of price sensitivity. So many people are trying to save money right now. People feel strapped, people feel angry about inflation. Here comes the site being like, let's cut through that, give you the real price. It is a very powerful, if not entirely truthful marketing message. And I think the broader cultural thing that this guy is tapping into is there whether William Sonoma sues or not.
- [24:33]
Dennis Scully
I agree. And that's one of the things, when we spoke about this in the past, that was so challenging to really figure out where to come down in terms of the overall messaging. Because as you point out, you can understand this company wanting to say, hey, look, I'm offering you a less expensive alternative here. Isn't this great? Look at my powerful tool and what it can do. When we first talked about it, we talked about a lot of the artisans and a lot of the original creators of some of these pieces that were just getting knocked off and have every reason to feel angry, uncomfortable about this tool. As you say, a lot of these similar type tools are already out there. We know that. But this, this was a machine built for the sole purpose of just finding you some knockoff or some replica of a piece that somebody might have spent quite a bit of time and money making and doesn't want knocked off.
- [25:30]
Fred Nicholaus
And I think another element of this that Sonoma points out in the lawsuit, but other people certainly have pointed out accurately as well, is that a lot of the furniture that dupe.com is linking to is what you might call fast furniture. It's like factory direct product that it's not going to last that long. And so while it's great to go for a lower price, what you end up doing is sending furniture to the landfill, encouraging manufacturers to cut corners and get ever cheaper products at the expense of materials and labor. And I do think that that contributes to some negative effects in the furniture industry. At the same time, I think it's hard to fight reality. And the reality is that a lot of people out there want cheaper prices on furniture and they don't care as much about authenticity as everyone listening to this show. So we are in a difficult moment and I think this lawsuit paints a picture of that.
- [26:20]
Dennis Scully
I completely agree. And look how we're going to transition to talking about inexpensive furniture, Fred, because next up, we're going to talk about Amazon's $20 sofa. Earlier this year, news broke that Amazon is planning a new discount e commerce site offering items directly from China. New reports reveal that the site will include price caps on select products, including just $20 for sofas. And Fred, nothing says comfort to me like $20 for a sofa. Am I right? That sounds like a great sofa.
- [26:53]
Fred Nicholaus
That's my Halloween costume. Is an Amazon twenty dollar sofa scarier to anyone in the furniture industry than ghouls and goblins? Yeah, I mean, I think sort of the context here is a bigger story that we've talked about a little bit, which is simply that. But many companies, the most notable ones are Shein and Temu, have figured out a way to basically plug Chinese factories directly into American e commerce. So there's no importer, there's no brand in between them. It's simply a big giant e commerce algorithm that connects a factory to a consumer directly. And these sites are able to offer stuff at ridiculously low prices. There are already very cheap sofas on Temu. So $23 was, I think, the lowest one that this writer who wrote this article was able to find. So this already exists. It's just a question of now. Amazon is seeing competition from these kinds of sites. They want to get in on it. And this list of price caps that they discussed with some of their manufacturers leaked into the press. And now we have these ridiculous numbers like a $20 sofa. I just looked at that number. I was like, what are we talking about? What does that even mean? What is a $20 sofa?
- [28:01]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. And what is a $20 sofa? And what could it poss possibly be? I mean, what could the construction, what could the materials. I mean, never mind being able to get inexpensive labor. Just what are the components? And is this the direction that we want to go in? Is Amazon saying, okay, fine, we'll play that game too? And here you go.
- [28:23]
Fred Nicholaus
I mean, it's funny to kind of laugh at it, but it's hard to escape the conclusion that this is going to involve labor by people who are being coerced into working. We've maybe not talked about it this much, but there's a whole population in China, the Uyghur Muslims, who are sort of coerced into labor. And Uyghur picked cotton is a very controversial subject in the industry. You're technically not allowed to sell it in the US but people get around it in various ways. So certainly there's very questionable, if not downright evil labor practices involved in offering something this cheap. Certainly it goes without saying that this is not a sustainable piece. One of the writers who wrote an article about this said, is going right to the landfill. I mean, how long is it 20 doll sofa going to last? So I don't know. I view this as almost just like the absurd apotheosis of, I don't know. I don't know what it's the apotheosis of, but it's depressing.
- [29:17]
Dennis Scully
Well, it is. And I mean, again, tying it back to the earlier conversation, this says, sure, you can find this, this incredibly low price point, but. But does that mean that you want to support that? And that's, I guess part of the big question is, is are people really going to get behind this or are people going to stand up and say, this just feels wrong on a host of levels? The labor issue is one part of it, but the environmental issues around all of this. All of it.
- [29:47]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. I actually am somewhat hopeful that a $20 price tag for a sofa will turn people off. I think we can talk about the upper limits of pricing and how people are very price sensitive, but I think that it can go the other way, too. That number is just absurdly low. I could not imagine many people going like that's going to be a good value for. I mean, I don't know, maybe there are some people who are just, that's what they have and that's what's in their budget. Or this is for a guest room or something. But you must hate your guests if you buy them a $20 sofa to sit in. I'm hopeful that this will be rejected by consumers, but I don't know, it's hard to know how low we can go here.
- [30:30]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's the thing. I raced to the bottom and I hate where that's going. So I'm hoping that the two of us talking about it will just put the kibosh on the whole thing and call it out and people just won't want to go there.
- [30:44]
Fred Nicholaus
I'm not only hopeful, I'm certain that will happen. I'm certain. Jeff Bezos right now. Oh, the Thursday show doesn't like this. Nevermind.
- [30:50]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. Yeah. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the latest showroom openings and a look at the chaos at Bed, Bath and Beyond. We'll be right back. But first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Claffs, the world leader in sauna luxury. Since 1928, Claffs has designed and built every sauna with meticulous attention to detail. From the moment you step into a claf's sauna, you'll feel the CLAF's difference. The weight of the door, the scent of the wood, the shape of the bench. All designed with distinction. Clafs, a century of superior heat. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit claffsusa.com that's klafs USA.com this podcast is also sponsored by Anthem plus smart showering only from Kohler. With Anthem plus, you can control up to 12 water outlets, design custom lighting environments to match your mood, and create your ideal escape. With three levels of soothing steam set to music from your own playlists, every moment asks you to imagine when you take a shower. Where does your shower take you? Explore Anthem+ smart showering@kohler.com Showers and we're back. The moment we've all been waiting for. The High Point Recap is finally here. To help me recap the High Point market, I'm joined by editor in chief Caitlin Peterson. Hi, Caitlin.
- [32:45]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, Dennis.
- [32:46]
Dennis Scully
And our executive editor, Fred Nicholaus. Hi, Fred.
- [32:49]
Fred Nicholaus
I'm back.
- [32:52]
Dennis Scully
This is so fun. I've been looking forward to this. It was great to spend time with all of you at High Point. Fun to see you all. I wanted to kick it off, Caitlin, with a little bit of a vibe check. If you had to, if you had to put it into one word, Caitlin, what would it be? What would the one word be to describe the vibe at High Point?
- [33:12]
Caitlin Peterson
Oh, man. I'm going first. I'm going to say wider, which sounds funny on its face. But I think really, interestingly one thing I felt was how much brands in other categories, maybe not traditional to High Point Market, want to be in the mix just so clearly want to show up and connect. I think primarily with designers. The most obvious representation of that is going to be nkba, the National Kitchen and Bath Association. They had a big pop up on Fred Alexander Place. Cambria also was showing and suites and I thought kind of together. I don't think you ever came to High Point and were like, oh, I'm going to do all my kitchen sourcing here. And I think this was a really interesting, again, widening of what you might want to come to Marketplace for other brands. There were paint brands showing up, an enthusiasm for independent makers and hand craft that's new. And I think that in general, we're starting to see a movement towards more things than just furniture shipped by the container load. And that's a departure for high Point Market. That's really going to be something to watch.
- [34:12]
Dennis Scully
Interesting. Okay, so a lot of different things to point to. Fred, what was your vibe? What was your sense of it?
- [34:18]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I think widening definitely refers to my waistline. After walking market and eating a piece of candy at literally every booth I stopped at, my word is hope. And I mean that in both the optimistic and pessimistic senses of the word. I think everyone I talked to was basically like, look, our business has not really radically rebounded the way we hoped it would, but we see the light at the end of the tunnel. We think things are going to get better. We hope things are going to get better. But I wanted to add that certainly that was mostly hope. Very few people were talking about, we're up 20% over last year. We're selling them by the truckload. In general, there was sort of a anticipatory optimism that was sometime in the future, not today. Dennis, what was your vibe for the market?
- [35:03]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I agree, I think, with all of the conversations that we had had about people trying to lower the expectations for market. I think satisfactory is the word. I think this market was very satisfactory. We all knew that people weren't showing huge new collections for the most part. And we all knew that people weren't feeling wildly enthusiastic about the economy and didn't want to make a big investment in this market. So I think they put on a good show. We all felt warm and welcomed and so satisfactory.
- [35:41]
Caitlin Peterson
I think the election is sort of a piece of that, too. And maybe I don't know if now's the right time to talk about that, but, you know, I think, sure.
- [35:47]
Dennis Scully
Jump right into politics, Caitlin. There's never a problem doing that, right?
- [35:50]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah, well, no, but I mean, I think you talk about people coming in with pretty grim expectations for this market. It's an election cycle market. The election is pretty wild. Market was late this year, so it's closer to the election than maybe ever before. I think you're right that a lot of people came in kind of expecting almost nothing, especially on the vendor side. And maybe we're pleasantly surprised because they started out with a real low bar.
- [36:18]
Dennis Scully
No, no, no, exactly. Which is why I think it was so smart that everyone lowered the expectations as much as they did, because I feel many people were able to step over those lowered expectations and that felt good. In terms of the actual attendance numbers, I know we don't have precise numbers, but we did get some indication comparisons to previous markets. What do we know, Caitlin?
- [36:44]
Caitlin Peterson
The High Point Market Authority has their board meeting on the Wednesday morning of market and what they reported there was that registrations were down, I believe, 2% from spring 2024. Spring 2024 itself was down about 2% from the fall before that. Pretty minimal, but small decline from markets past. What will take a lot longer to figure out is who actually showed up and how they showed up. All those scans, every time you get in a building, get on a bus, get de duplicated, it takes about a month, but in about a month we'll know who actually showed up and where they came from. On the registration side, we know that international attendance was a little bit lighter this market than previous markets, but large retailer attendance was up about 3%, but still up. I will say that the vendors in showrooms seemed happy with the traffic they got, especially on the weekends, whatever those registration numbers say. The people actually walking indoors, again, maybe that was low expectations, but that seemed to be. I heard some vendors talking about setting some attendance records for post Covid markets of Saturday and Sunday traffic. That feels like a win to me when you're talking about attendance.
- [37:58]
Dennis Scully
Fred, anything do you want to add there?
- [37:59]
Fred Nicholaus
All the business of home events were attended very well. I will say that we sold out all of our panels and things. Yeah, I mean, I'll say I'm not as much of a market veteran as you two, so I wouldn't say that I'm totally an expert on this. It did feel a little bit slow and a lot of people told me that it felt a little soft in terms of attendance, a little quiet. But I do think the vibe was overall good. People were happy to be there. High Point is a very up market. So yeah, a little bit slow, but didn't dampen the spirits of most people that I talked to.
- [38:29]
Dennis Scully
I wonder, Fred, in conversations that you might have had with designers that you spoke with, how were people feeling about their business? How were they feeling about the health and strength of their pipeline and everything going on?
- [38:44]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, well, it's difficult talking to interior designers. I mean, I think with like, for example, if you want to know how the home renovation business is going, you just look at Home Depot and Lowe's stock price and you basically Have a sense of it. Whereas interior design is just so fragmented that one designer could be having their best year ever, whereas another one could be really scrambling to fill the pipeline. Sometimes it's difficult to really get your finger on the pulse. A couple things. One is that people who were a little bit earlier in their career were talking about how it was a little bit difficult to get new leads. I do think a lot of that has dried up in the post Covid would boom, crash. I also think some markets were a little bit better than others. A number of people told me that Dallas is really booming right now. Nashville is kind of popping off, whereas parts of California are a little bit slow. Austin is very slow, some people said. So I think in general, designers are still doing well, and that's kind of the consensus, but it's not as much of a blanket. Yeah, designers are doing great. Like it was in 2021 or 2020. There's definitely like a little bit of a more uneven picture.
- [39:44]
Dennis Scully
You know, I very much agree, Fred. I got the sense that it was very specific, and I think that there were. We were sort of talking in broad terms in previous markets, and I think this time around, we definitely heard there were some soft spots. How much of that is driven by, as Caitlin was referring to earlier, Some of the hesitation around the election or just the distraction of that? I think that was certainly weighing on people's minds. And a lot of people referred to the fact that their clients were just distracted and not pulling the trigger on some things. So it was hard to get a sense of whether that was business that's just waiting in the wings for some greater clarity or if it's a meaningful slowdown in some markets. And again, I think a lot of it, too, depended on how high end the particular designer was. I definitely felt much more of a high low story in having some conversations with people.
- [40:41]
Fred Nicholaus
People, yeah, agreed.
- [40:43]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. I mean, what I'm curious about, Caitlin, is going around. So you had so many appointments, doing walkthroughs, and if people shared with you their perceptions of how things were going for some of the manufacturers and some of the brands that you saw, I.
- [40:59]
Caitlin Peterson
Think there was a lot of the same cautious optimism that y'all have been talking about on the Thursday show for the last year or so. They're watching the economy, they're watching the election. And I think weirdly, kind of in the same way that they had sort of this grim outlook for market. I think they have sort of a grim outlook through the end of the year, but kind of a Cautious hope, I think, that people are going to start buying.
- [41:20]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, No. I reached out to the Stumps to get a sense of what they were going to be writing up for their recap, the mergers and acquisitions and advisor partners to the industry. And I think they echo a lot of the same sentiments that we've been sharing. I mean, they definitely talked about the fact that it wasn't quite as sunny inside as it was outside for much of market, but they did get the sense that people were feeling, as we've been suggesting on the show and as Warren has been writing about in some of his columns as well, that perhaps we're feeling like we've seen the worst of it. Tim Stump definitely felt that there were some green shoots on the higher end of things. So I think that that story aligns well with everything that we have been talking about and writing about here.
- [42:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think for the past couple years, it's been a little bit like a movie with a lot of twists and turns and you're kind of sitting in your seat going like, okay, the movie's almost over. Are there a couple more twists coming or are we almost going to get out and step into the sunshine? And I think everyone is sort of sitting there a little bit nervously going like, how many more twists we got before we can start going up. I think the ultimate twist, as we've talked about, is the election. I think most people said it played more of a role than they thought it would in sort of tamping down their business. I also think there was a lot of gallows humor about the election in North Carolina, High Point in particular. It's a little bit of a politics free zone. People don't like to say, oh, I'm supporting this person or that person, but everybody agreed. I hope whatever happens, it's a landslide so we can all move on. Several people told me, well, we can get through a couple days of riots and then bounce back. It was very kind of.
- [43:06]
Caitlin Peterson
That is wild by that time.
- [43:07]
Fred Nicholaus
I know, I know, I know. But it's the business calculations that frankly, people have to make and are making. So I think that's the big unknown is how crazy are the next couple weeks, months going to be? And everyone is very much knocking on wood. That'll be clear whatever happens. The other kind of business angle of the elections that people were talking about, at least to me, is that if Trump wins, he has promised to increase tariffs, especially on China. And as we all know, a lot of furniture comes in China. So anyone who heavily Imports furniture has to make a decision. Do we think these tariffs are actually going to happen? Do we buy up a lot of inventory in advance? Do we wait and hope for the best? That was generating a lot of uncertainty and I feel like different people had different strategies for how to deal with it. Caitlin, did you talk to people about that? What was your sense?
- [43:51]
Caitlin Peterson
I had a lot of conversations about that. In the lighting category, I would add, yes, a lot of people are importing furniture from China, but also so all of the components of the lighting that we purchase here come from China. And so when you look at what that means for anybody manufacturing lighting, that's really significant. And I don't know that there's not really a way to prepare for a significant percentage of all of your pieces will suddenly cost a lot more for you to import. I think it's maybe a little bit harder to get ahead of that if it's going to happen in the lighting category, but that was certainly top of mind for everyone I talked to in that space.
- [44:32]
Dennis Scully
China definitely came up as the big wild card, I think, in all of this. And it's hard to tell how serious people are when they say there's going to be 1000% tariffs on things coming out of China. But it definitely had people on edge. And there were an awful lot of people, as we know, at High Point that rely on China for a great deal. Deal. Caitlin, let's talk about some of the things that were new and different at market because there were quite a few to point to.
- [45:01]
Caitlin Peterson
I mean, I think the thing on everyone's lips, if there weren't flashy product debuts this market, there was a new building, a whole new building, 313space opened. It was opened up. It was really spearheaded by Rudy and Dominique, the. The co founders of Schwang. They took a Hoosiery manufacturing site and turned it into a really interesting showroom. Schwang is kind of the anchor tenant on the first floor, but when you go upstairs, there was a really interesting mix of bigger brands kind of taking up some real estate there, as well as a lot of boutique and independent makers in spaces where they could really creatively showcase their work. And I think especially when we talk about capturing designer attention at market, that embrace of handcraft, that embrace of working with the artist or the artisan is certainly captivating and exciting and feels new. And I think that really energized a lot of folks who went to visit. It's a really interesting building. What did the two of you think, though? I know you were Both stopped by.
- [46:06]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, absolutely. Fred, what was your take?
- [46:08]
Fred Nicholaus
I was going to say, I think it's now a battle between 313 space and shop object to be kind of like the hipster place at High Point. But it definitely, it definitely had kind of like a New Yorky feel, a little bit like it was a reclaimed SoHo loft. I think actually, Caitlin, you and I before market were a little bit like skeptical is maybe the wrong word, but suspicious, like, oh, what's this really all about?
- [46:26]
Caitlin Peterson
What is this?
- [46:27]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's funny because walking over there, it's a little bit at the edge of like the central market hub. And as we all know, like one block in High Point land equals like 10 miles in normal circumstances. And I felt like I was sort of crawling through the desert to get out there. But once I was there, it was a beautiful oasis. They have a beautiful garden area. It feels very fresh and light filled in there. Does not feel like a conference center, does not feel jammed and crammed like AHFC definitely does sometimes. So it's a very pleasant place to be. And I think there was a cool mix of brands, some interesting people there, Interestingly. Actually one of my favorite little moments was the Parsons Healthy Materials Lab. We've spoken to John Saro Ruth, the founder of that organization, on the podcast. They had a pop up at the 313 space and it was really cool. I briefly spoke to Jansara and I think it's a perennial sort of frustration that why can't brands embrace sustainable manufacturing? The materials ready, the science is ready. But she was very optimistic. When I talked to her, she was saying, I'm having real conversations with manufacturers. There's some scale developing here. She had just gotten out of a conversation with a guy who makes furniture for restoration hardware or RH rather. So she was really excited about it. What if they do this? And so I don't know. I thought that was a really nice little optimistic moment at 313space. So I was a huge fan. Dennis, what about you?
- [47:45]
Dennis Scully
I agree. I also had a fun conversation with John Sara Ruth, and she was so excited about the paint that was on the wall. That's going to be much healthier. And there were material substitutes for even the quartz countertops could be had. So I mean, yeah, there were a lot of things that she could point to and she was excited to show them off. And right next door was a wonderful lighting company that had made all the lighting out of recycled plastic bottles and had a really impressive display. So there was a wonderful environmental feel up on the second floor. And I thought it had a nice energy. That building definitely felt like, as you were saying, Fred, the hipster, the cool kid. I think your cool quotient went up when you stepped inside and had a nice wine bar also downstairs, which was very welcome. So, yeah, I was again delightfully surprised by the new building introduction. When you get pitched a new building. Yeah. How excited can you get? But then you went there and you discovered there was actually quite a lot going on. So that was impressive. You referenced earlier the National Kitchen and Bath association activation that was there. What was your sense of that and can you see that becoming a regular presence at Highpoint?
- [49:08]
Caitlin Peterson
I think it was a really interesting activation. It's in the right spot, right where they're going to get a lot of designer traffic. I think they had really smart, compelling programming that looked really well attended. I think to truly find success. That tent looks expensive. So I don't know that they would like this assessment of mine, but I think they'll have to do it again and again. I think that if you do that once as sort of a flash in the pan, you probably aren't going to get get the traction that you need to truly make kitchen and bath part of the conversation at High Point Market. I think if that tent is there again in the spring or if it's there every fall, I think that could start to be a really important conversation topic or really important part of the conversation. I think it's absolutely an activation they could build on. I think it's a start, hopefully for them and not a one off if they want to really cement their presence in town.
- [49:59]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. And I definitely got the sense and I chatted with Bill D'Arcy from the NKBA for a little bit and I mean, I definitely got the sense that they wanted to dip their toe in, sort of get a response. I think there's a lot more that they could do the next time out. If they walked away feeling like this was worthwhile and could tell that story, it certainly makes sense. I imagine that there's a pretty good crossover with those two shows in terms of audience and attendance. But I think to your point, whoever is just going to come and show up at High Point, they are going to need to be consistent and do it again and again. Which brings me to Shop Object, which appeared again. And do you feel like that's getting tracked?
- [50:50]
Caitlin Peterson
I heard designers say they were going, so I think in that sense, yes. I will also say that I think I heard a lot of people still struggling to figure out how to get there. If you don't have a lot of experience with that Market Square building, it's kind of weird. You know, I think their signage was better, but I don't think they totally stuck the landing on getting you across the walkway and over to Shop Object. From a signage and wayfinding perspective, I think that's actually really hard. So I give them credit for the improvements they're making. But I do think it's going to take either more time or kind of more marketing to get people over to that space. It's also a really interesting challenge if you think about who needs to go see vendors there. If you live in the New York area and you come to Shop Object already, you're going to meet people you already know, and it may not feel as essential to you. But I do think for the design community, I talked to kind of outside of the New York metro area, that was a much more compelling piece of market for them. I hope they stick around. I hope they keep doing it. I. I hope it continues to grow. I think it's a really promising destination at Market.
- [51:53]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. I mean, it's funny because 313space has the disadvantage of having that distance. Shop Object is, like, more centrally located, but it's in the middle of what I would charitably call a labyrinth. It's difficult to get to, and it's hard to find. It depends on kind of your expectations. I mean, like Caitlin, I heard designers saying, I loved it. I went and picked up a few alpaca throws. It was really cute. So that was good to hear. I talked to a few vendors there. There was one very sweet maker who said he didn't have a lot of commercial expectations, but made a lot of great connections. He was a local guy named Mike Nguyen, and I think he really enjoyed being there, and it was the right company, so that was cool. There were a couple other people who were saying, look, we're just not making the sales we need to make here. They're having the same expectations that you'd have a Shop Object in New York, where you open the convention center door, people rush in, take everything you've got, then leave. That was not happening for them. Them. I did see a couple buyers from Wayfair walking through. So I don't think there was a complete darth of business activity, but it was a little slow, and I think there's going to be some skepticism around it. I hope they stick it out. I'm a huge fan of Shop Object. My taste does lean towards the hipster. I will, for one, make it through the confusing labyrinth next time I go to market. But I do think it's a challenge for them for sure, to overcome.
- [53:07]
Caitlin Peterson
I think for all of these independent and boutique brands. Fred, you make a really good point about 1. And shop object in New York is sort of like a feeding frenzy the second they open the doors. High Point Market is a week long, basically, and it's not the same experience. It's also a way bigger lift for all of these small independent brands. If you are exhibiting twice a year at Shop object or even 313space, you're coming early to set up. You're staffing your space for the entire week because people start showing up on Wednesday or Thursday, even though Market opens on Saturday. You have to be there, you have to break down, and all of a sudden you're spending almost a month of the year renting a house in High Point Market. And I think for these smaller brands is 1/12 of your time when you could be building your brand in other ways. That's much harder math than it is for a much more established furniture company. And I think that's going to be something with this passion for the handmade and the one of a kind. I think that's going to be a unique challenge for these brands. Brands making a lasting impact at High Point Market.
- [54:12]
Fred Nicholaus
I think High Point Market authority should invest in these people, frankly, just because I think they keep the market fresh and they give people a reason to come outside of cycles in their business. And I think most people at this point recognize that a lot of buying can be done outside of market. And so there has to be a reason for people to come. And I think discovering new brands is really one of them. So I think there's every incentive for the market itself to try and find ways, ways to highlight these people, because I think they make it vibey or they make it buzzier and they turn it into a more experiential, intimate show, which I think is going to be the real value proposition for High Point going forward. At least that's my hipster opinion. I'm sure other people feel differently.
- [54:53]
Dennis Scully
No, I completely agree again, to Caitlin's point about being wider. I think for the High Point Market authority, I think wider is the strategy to go for. I think High Point Market authority has the strength of the numbers. Even if it's up or down a couple of percentage points each market, who cares? You're delivering a huge number of people that are coming to this market. And so whether it's the nkba. Whether it's shop object or getting some of these small vendors, I think finding lots of different ways to have the market be interesting and you can go off in so many different directions. You can find so many things. We haven't even touched on anti antiques, which is a big reason why a certain cadre of designers come. They come for the antiques, they come for the incredible shopping there. So I mean, I think High Point is smart to have this really broad mix. And I think more and more, as you were just saying, Fred, people need a reason to come twice a year. People need a reason to keep coming to a big trade show. And I think that is only going to continue to become competitive for people's attention. I wonder. I didn't feel like there was a lot of big technology stories at High Point, but I do feel like Kravit was trying to show us some high tech, some Vision Pro like action. What did you make of that, Caitlin?
- [56:22]
Caitlin Peterson
I've got a great video, a great seven minute video of Fred testing out those goggles.
- [56:29]
Fred Nicholaus
Some call it a video, some call it blackmail.
- [56:32]
Caitlin Peterson
I mean that was as close as I got to that technology. I think Fred should probably speak to his experience adding some, adding some creative flavor, a chair and a side table to the Kravitz showroom. Even if it was only virtual, it was actually pretty amazing to watch and to see even at this phase, what's possible. And I think it left me thinking much more clearly that some of these technologies can be an answer for the client who just can't see it down the road. Maybe it's not quite ready yet, but I think Kravitz going to be ready for it when the rest of us catch up and are ready to engage in that way. What was it like though with the goggles on, Fred?
- [57:14]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, well, Kravit had a thing that they'd done with this company called Intiaro that does 3D visualization technology and it was a program they had done for the Apple Vision Pro that's out Apple's crazy expensive $3,000 headset. It's, you know, I think many people have tried on these AR VR headsets and I think, you know, the knock on them is that they're heavy and they look goofy. That's certainly true of this one, but this one is amazingly good. Like when you put it on, you can really see the room around you very clearly. You don't feel as isolated as you do with some of the other ones. And the technology is basically that you can like place, as you were saying, like a stool, an ottoman, a bed in the room. Like you can place virtual furniture in the room upholstered in virtual cravat fabric and look at it from all angles. That sounds sort of simple. And so what. But it's pretty incredible when you're actually in the room. I know there's been a lot of skepticism around this technology. Apple's pulled back on their plans for the Apple Vision Pro. I'm personally a huge fan and I think interior design is the perfect place to implement it. I don't see people walking around all day with this thing on their head. But again, as you were saying, the client who just can't see it. Well, with this, you really can see.
- [58:19]
Caitlin Peterson
You were literally like on the ground, like leaning in to look at this chair. You had, you know, air quotes placed in the showroom, you know, and you could. And on the screen, you know, we could see what you were saying and you could see the texture of the textile on the chair. I mean, it was. You looked funny, but it was pretty amazing to see what that experience. I mean, that's incredible.
- [58:40]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, no, it's very cool and I looked very cool doing it, but I think it's really impressive and I hope, hope more people do it. On the technology note, Dennis, you're absolutely right. It was funny. Like in that kind of plaza between IHFC and Showplace, there was this little booth this woman was working with for a company called like Podium AI. And it was like AI shopping assistant or something. And she was like, free wine, free wine, free beer. No one was stopping at the AI booth. It's still an old school industry and I think, you know, I think that makes me love it all the more.
- [59:10]
Caitlin Peterson
I do think we saw some interesting advancements in LED technology, which is not a super sexy thing to talk about out, but there's a lot of lighting at High Point Market. And more and more and more of that is led, you know, and I think more companies are sort of pushing the boundaries of what we think LED can be, are trying to get us comfortable with a light fixture where you don't have to change the light bulbs. You know, I think people look at LED and maybe they're a little afraid of it. They don't totally understand it. Some of these fixtures are weird by conventional standards. You know, they're, they're pretty innovative. And I think we saw a real leap forward with some of the things that are possible there. I think that's kind of a. Watch this space. Do people Buy it. Do companies double down on that or are they going to start to pull back if those items didn't land? But I talked to a couple lighting manufacturers who said, I think Curry was a good example. They have a couple of pretty traditional looking chandeliers, but with kind of LED instead of a bulb. And they're like, well, we're going to watch and see you. Does this resonate? Do people get it? Are they ready for this yet? The technology is ready, but I think in that case it's actually our customers ready. And I thought that was sort of an interesting progression forward on the tech side there.
- [60:23]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, I know people are still pretty passionate about the incandescent bulb, but we just have to tell them, as you were just saying, Caitlin, the wonders of not having to change a light bulb. I can't remember the last time I changed a light bulb in my house. I've got LED bulbs just about every. Everywhere. Well, I mean, and again, and I'm curious what else you saw in this area. I mean, I feel like you're not coming to High Point to see innovation in action. Right. You're going to some show in Vegas or you're going to some show elsewhere.
- [60:57]
Caitlin Peterson
Or you're like CES or something, right. You're going to get like, oh my gosh, this flies. This talks to you, this. Yeah, exactly. Conversation with your washing machine. I don't know.
- [61:04]
Dennis Scully
Right. This isn't the home technology show. And so, I mean, I feel like I wasn't even inundated with a lot of high tech motion furniture or a lot of built in. I mean, so. But you, but you tell me, because you went around and saw a lot more product than I was able to.
- [61:23]
Caitlin Peterson
I don't think you see, again, you're not going to see. Talk to your washing machine is the dumb example. But you're not seeing that kind of. But I do think you're seeing innovation in the way that we start to live with this technology that was rolled out at those kind of technological shows in years past. You know, I think motion offerings are more prevalent at high end brands than ever. And are some, in some cases looking pretty chic. I got stumped for the first time this market, you know, people are always like, oh, you wouldn't know it's motion. And you're kind of like, well, yeah, I had a guess. I didn't guess for a sofa. I saw this market and it was, you know, that's pretty amazing. I think the explosion of rechargeable lighting everywhere.
- [62:08]
Dennis Scully
Absolutely.
- [62:09]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, this isn't the first market we've seen that.
- [62:11]
Dennis Scully
Sure.
- [62:12]
Caitlin Peterson
But I certainly think we are in the midst of seeing people change how they live with lighting. And that felt innovative and revelatory to me. You know, that was everywhere. And it's not just little table lamps that you carry around. It's not just like restaurant lighting. Right. Like sconces that are rechargeable, floor lamps that are rechargeable. I think that category felt kind of omnipresent.
- [62:35]
Dennis Scully
I agree. I think that's one of the most exciting innovations that's going on. And as you say, it's no longer just a cute little table lamp or a little restaurant light tap. Yeah, no, no, it's everywhere. And as far as motion furniture, we've talked about it before, but RH is leaning into motion furniture in a big way. And so we can't. We can't joke about it anymore because obviously it's.
- [62:59]
Fred Nicholaus
Or can we joke about it even more?
- [63:02]
Caitlin Peterson
You know what? A couple markets ago, Baker launched Motion. And I was like, in my head, that was the moment that I was like, oh, everyone's going to start doing motion furniture. If you're seeing it there in a stunning mohair velvet, this is something. And we're seeing it more and more and more. Maybe it's still tucked away in the corner of a lot of show. Richards, but it's there and it's looking pretty good.
- [63:26]
Dennis Scully
Caitlin, I wonder, are there in sort of wrapping up the conversation, I wonder if there were any big changes to showrooms or to companies that you visited where you felt as if perhaps new leadership has been making a meaningful impact on the look and feel of what you saw.
- [63:48]
Caitlin Peterson
Absolutely. I mean, I think for me, that was actually one of the top takeaways this market. That was something I felt like I saw again and again and again. The best example of that might be the big tent that was installed on the bank of Wren parking lot for Burton James. Made goods. Purchased Burton James in April, I think, right before High Point Market. You know, they had two weeks to open the showroom for spring. You know, they hadn't really put their hands on it yet, but they had an entire like 7 or 8,000 square foot tent of refreshed introductions, new pieces. And I think they really planted a flag for how they are revitalizing that brand. Watch that space, because that tent is going to turn into a 20,000 square foot showroom, all for the Burton James brand. So I think they have just, you know, what we've seen is just a small Slice of what is to come if you walk through hooker. Caroline Hippel is there as the chief creative officer also since early April. I don't think we really saw her hand on the brand at Spring Market either. But you can start to see the way that kind of family of brands, and they've got a lot of brands in a very giant showroom. Yes, they were talking about the fact. Yeah, they were talking about the fact that in part of the showroom, they're merchandising their brands together for the first time. And it was beautiful. It was full of color. It was really trend forward, you know, and there's. There was one stretch of the showroom that just, to me, felt like the most compelling representation of that brand that I've seen in a really long time. I think we're going to see more of that in future markets, and I'm really excited about that. I also think Brown Jordan was a great example. Ben Collins joined as the division president there. I think last August, they were showing their first outdoor furniture collection that was really kind of start to finish under his vision. I got to see a bunch of stuff that's coming up for the next year or two that they'll be rolling out, and I think that's gonna be a brand to watch. They have so much in the works that's truly exciting and extraordinary in the outdoor space. And I think that's, again, a really good example of a shift in leadership, really energizing, revitalizing a brand. I also just. I think I said this last time we were on this show, I love the new look at Hickory Chair. You know, I shouted out Federico last time, but I think that showroom just continues to look more and more like it should and more and more like itself. When you go to market again and again and again, and you visit some of these showrooms, you know, again and again and again, some of them don't change, and some of them do. And when they're changing in the right direction, I think that feels so good. And so seeing some of these sort of adjustments and kind of brands stepping into themselves in exciting ways, to me, that is one of the most exciting things that can happen at a market. It's really hard when people stop you on the street and they're like, what have you seen? I'm like, do you have 10 seconds or four hours? I think it's a hard thing to quantify really quickly in a conversation on the street, but I think some of that brand movement. Fred, your word was good. Makes me hopeful about what we will continue to see at markets moving forward.
- [66:51]
Dennis Scully
Anything you want to add there, Fred?
- [66:53]
Fred Nicholaus
No. I mean, I'm glad that hope is resonating.
- [66:59]
Dennis Scully
Well, so then here's my question for you, Fred. Any interesting gossip, rumors, chit chat, anything you overheard that we might be talking about in the future?
- [67:10]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, the hottest gossip just dropped right before we hit record on this podcast, which is that there's a secret bowling league at the end of High Point, which apparently Caitlin was invited into this cabal. Neither you or I were given a custom shirt and a spot at the Lanes, but that's what I'm aiming for next market. In terms of gossip on the street. I mean, again, High Point is just so fun for people in our line of work. You're sitting there in the little cafeteria area, show place, and you realize, oh, that's Neeraj Shah, the CEO of Wayfair, who just sat down and he's chatting with this factory. So I was trying to eavesdrop unsuccessfully on what he's talking about. No scoops there. Gary Friedman, RH chairman and CEO, was seen sort of swooping into Market briefly. That was obviously a fun rumor. Kelly Wurstler was there. The queen made an appearance. So you see all the celebrities, you see all your favorite designers. I don't know that I got any hot rumors that I would feel totally comfortable sharing just yet, but rest assured, they'll be on the Thursday show in a matter of weeks.
- [68:08]
Dennis Scully
Yes, I saw Gary Friedman a couple different times at Market. So he was obviously out making a lot of acquisitions as far as upcoming collections. And so that actually made me feel hopeful about where things are going.
- [68:23]
Fred Nicholaus
Right. Came down from the luxury mountain to buy some outdoor furniture.
- [68:28]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. What about you, Caitlin?
- [68:29]
Caitlin Peterson
I think, interestingly, one thing I heard a lot of people talking about was that showroom. Some showroom, musical chairs. That's going to be happening. One of them, you know, Bernhardt is leaving its space at ihfc. I believe this was maybe their last market in the big building. They'll be taking the Klausner space that's out on the street. That changes the kind of geographical pull. Certainly in that neighborhood. They're right there across the street. Ish from like Caracool and that universal. Somebody super interesting. Also, just purchase the old Mitchell Gould, Bob Williams building on Grimes, and I think that will be an interesting move. Refresh and expansion. I don't think I can quite say who that is yet, but I think it's going to be really interesting to see. I think there's a lot of Adjustments. I also think there's a lot of brands watching other brands move and thinking about making moves of their own.
- [69:22]
Dennis Scully
And you mentioned Mitchell Gold and nice to see Mitchell Gold back at High Point and he actually had, I thought, some pretty impressive introductions on the floor. What was your experience?
- [69:33]
Caitlin Peterson
Did you sit on that coral down sofa? I was so into it. I think. Yeah. I saw Mitchell on Tuesday and it was funny. He was like, what do you think? And I was like, it's like hanging out with a bunch of old friends again. It was kind of lovely to see the resurgence of a lot of my favorites from the Mitchell Gold line, and I think it's a really promising start for that brand. Do you agree?
- [69:57]
Dennis Scully
I thought his color choices were great. I thought his fabric choices were great. I thought it was fun to see some of the designs coming back and you could tell his excitement and enthusiasm about being back and.
- [70:08]
Caitlin Peterson
Absolutely.
- [70:09]
Dennis Scully
And that was really great to see. Anything else before we go, Fred, that you want to share?
- [70:17]
Fred Nicholaus
No, I'm just going to polish up my bowling skills. That's what I'm mainly working on for next season.
- [70:20]
Dennis Scully
Fred is so focused on the bowling league. League.
- [70:23]
Caitlin Peterson
Okay, Let me tell you, my score did not count on my team. My team won. I'm going to shout that from the rooftop. My score absolutely did not count in pulling us across the finish line.
- [70:32]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm sure that next year we can bring bowling shoes and apply to join the league and hopefully we can all work on our skills between now and the springtime so that we can compete at a higher level. Anyway, I want to thank you both for joining me and for this great conversation. I really appreciate it. Caitlin, for Fred. Thank you.
- [70:55]
Caitlin Peterson
Thank you, Dennis.
- [70:55]
Fred Nicholaus
Thanks, Dennis.
- [71:01]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye.
- [71:08]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, Dennis, I think you very accurately described High Point Market as like drinking from a fire hose. So there has been a lot that has caught my eye over the past week. My eyes are absolutely blasted with beautiful product, lots of great conversations, really interesting people. So I'm going to abstain and pass it on over to you for the end of the show here.
- [71:24]
Dennis Scully
Well, there was a lot to take in at High Point to be sure. I really wanted to end the show by just thanking everyone who came out to see Fred. And I host a Thursday show in the Surya showroom with Mitchell Gold and panels that I did at Tulip and Chelsea House. And I just. I'm. I'm so grateful to all of those companies for hosting us. I'm so grateful to all the many people who kindly came up to us and said how much they enjoy the show and how much they get out of it. Truthfully, appearing live and being part of market is one of my favorite things to get to do. And part of the reason that is is because I get to see so many people and connect in person. So I'm just grateful to everyone who came by to say hello. It meant so much to all of us. So thank you.
- [72:20]
Fred Nicholaus
I second that emotion.
- [72:22]
Dennis Scully
All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com. if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at. Podcast this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and I'll be back with you on Monday.