← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: What happens next at Holly Hunt? Plus: Susan Clark of Radnor on design centers, trade shows, and collectible furniture
01:06:59
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Susan Clark of Radnor shares her take on design centers, trade shows, and collectible furniture.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Susan Clark of Radnor. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including an executive shakeup at Holly Hunt, the shutdown of Houzz's shopping site, and dispatches from New York Design Week. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicklaus. Hey, Fred.
- [00:32]
B
Hey, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:33]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:34]
B
I'm doing good. I'm not as good as you. Should I say Dennis, or should I call you Dr. Scully?
- [00:42]
A
I want you to start doing that after tomorrow. Yes, please.
- [00:45]
B
Exactly. We normally record this show on Wednesday, but we're doing it on Tuesday today because Dennis has a big appointment tomorrow. He's getting an honorary doctorate.
- [00:54]
A
Woo hoo.
- [00:55]
B
From the New York School of Interior Design. Well deserved, very exciting news.
- [00:58]
A
Cue the applause. There you go. That's when we need that clapping track in the background.
- [01:03]
B
No, but in all sincerity, very well deserved. It's in service of the industry and I think you do a lot of great stuff with and for Niced, so couldn't put the doctor title on a nicer guy. So we salute you, Dr. Scully, and it'll be a fun day.
- [01:19]
A
I appreciate. It's a tremendous honor and I appreciate the kind outreach from so many in the industry. And it's a wonderful feeling to be recognized in this way. And I appreciate it very much. And it's a wonderful reflection for business of home as well.
- [01:33]
B
Well, there's no easy transition into this, but let's talk about Monday's episode. Charles de Lisle, a great, great decorator. Great conversation. What'd you make of it?
- [01:40]
A
Well, exactly, Fred. A great decorator. Listen to me.
- [01:42]
B
I know I use that word. Yeah.
- [01:44]
A
Pick it up on one of the messages from. From Charles de Lisle. A really interesting conversation with a very thoughtful gentleman who cares a great deal about how things feel just as much as how they look and is insightful on matters from AI to where design is going and what design used to be all about when some of the great decorators took on a job. And he finds himself feeling a great camaraderie, I think, with some of the great decorators of the past, and so feels that that's how he wants to refer to himself as. Well, what did you think?
- [02:26]
B
Yeah, I mean, he's a very thoughtful guy, very smart guy. I jumped on that decorator versus designer thing because we talk about that so often. But I do think it almost feels like it's sort of part of a pendulum swing that I feel like I'm sort of seeing every now and then in the design industry. I feel like in the early 2000s, there was a lot of energy towards. Interior design has a bad reputation. We need to professionalize it. Let's make it much more professional. And I feel like we've been on that swing for about 20 years and I feel like now there are people starting to be like, let's make it less professional, let's make it. But I mean, let's make it more fun and kind of just purely about the pursuit of beauty and more about feeling and, you know, just getting your clients something specific to them as opposed to having like a rigid process that you follow. Now, there's a lot of different ways to get to a great interior, but I do think it's interesting to see that strain kind of come up. And I feel like Charles. Charles is a great example of it and someone who does it very well.
- [03:18]
A
I agree. And another thing that was interesting in the conversation is the origin story of Charles breaking into the industry and something that we're going to talk about later when we talk about New York Design Week. But Charles Delisle, he designed a lamp and he had a bunch of interviews at interior design firms and they weren't sure about how to fit him into their operations. And so he said, okay, well, to heck with it, I'm going to go and design a lamp. And then the lamp caught on and suddenly people said, oh yeah, he seems like a great designer. We should totally hire him. And so it is a reminder that there are so many ways into this industry and so many ways that you can demonstrate your abilities. And I love that about this industry. So I hope people enjoy the conversation. I think they will. He's, as I say, he's a very thoughtful guy. We're going to get into the news in just a minute, but first a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, a family run company known for thoughtfully designed rugs, pillows and wall art, and for building lasting partnerships across the trade for anyone sourcing product right now. Lelloy just came out of High Point Market with a wide range of new collections, including the highly anticipated and honestly stunning Rain collection, plus the latest from Rifle Paper company by Laloy Collaboration. Along with new pillows and wall art, the idea is to give customers more to work with on the design side while keeping everything else from ordering to support as straightforward as possible. With dedicated sales reps, showrooms nationwide, and an easy to use website. To learn more or to connect with a Sales rep, visit laloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com this podcast is sponsored by Resource Furniture. For over 25 years, Resource has proven that living well doesn't require more square footage. It requires better solutions. Their Italian made collection is curated to help designers create spaces that work harder than they look, with wall beds that double as sofas, desks, or media units. Shifting seamlessly between work, rest, and entertaining. Through innovative, multifunctional design and a highly personalized approach, Resource helps unlock the full potential of every space. Visit their showrooms in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. Or join their Trade program@resourcefurniture.com for exclusive pricing, rendering support, and the tools to deliver homes that adapt, support, and elevate the everyday. And we're back. First up, Fred wouldn't be business of home without talking about Charles Cohen.
- [06:19]
B
Here we go again. The design center landlord has defaulted on his loan backing New York's D and D building, adding to his mounting money troubles. We talk about this every week, every month, every day. And here's a little, a little drip of news. Where were you when you heard this news, Dennis?
- [06:37]
A
It's, it's. Everyone is hanging on every bit of news, and I love nothing more than people running up to me at shows going, have you heard the Charles Cohen news? Like, that's all the, that's all the buzz. But we should, we should talk about the, the news and what it means, if anything, to everything that's.
- [06:55]
B
That's going on. Yes, that is a fair point. So, okay, technically what has happened is that Coen Brothers Realty, Charles Cohen's company, has defaulted on its mortgage, but it's a maturity default, essentially meaning that they came to the end of the, you know, the term of the loan, and the loan was not entirely paid back. So that, that's what a maturity default is. And so, you know, the lender has put them into special servicing. E meaning like, hey, like, you better pay that back now. And you know, that sounds dramatic, and it's not nothing but certainly a lot of commercial real estate loans are done like this. You know, at the end of a loan, a new borrower comes along and takes it over under different terms. Cohen's lawyer has said that they're trying to, you know, they're talking to the lender, they're figuring it out. It's business as usual. And that's not an entirely crazy point of view. So it's possible that this is just a tempest in a teapot. On the other hand, this is exactly how he lost control of the decorative center. Houston was immature default. And it's interesting, Morningstar, this credit rating agency, puts out this report, and they reported that the occupancy of the D and D building has gone down from 85 or 90% down to. Was it 63%, is that right, Dennis?
- [08:03]
A
63. If they're being generous, Fred, in my
- [08:06]
B
mind, it's not 63%. In our hearts, it feels empty there, for sure. So it will be more difficult for him to renegotiate the lease. But would you. What do you make of all this? Is this a big deal? Is this no deal? How serious is this?
- [08:20]
A
Well, a part of it is. It reminds everybody, and we've talked about this, but people forget. I mean, he doesn't own the land under the building. There's this land lease, and this is one of the reasons that when you talk to industry insiders, this is part of what they say is so unappealing and why there aren't 100 people lining up to buy this building is they don't own the land. And there is this, as you see spelled out, this rather expensive land lease that you have to pay on top of all all of the other expenses of trying to run a design center. So no wonder there's no soap in the bathrooms, Fred. Because he's gotta spend all the money on the land underneath the building. So, I mean, that's the knock against why it's not just an easy deal to come in and solve. And it is complicated. And he clearly has been trying to renegotiate that land lease. And often tenants or loan holders will take it right to the brink and look like they might default to try and get those two terms renegotiated. Right?
- [09:22]
B
Just for fun, to keep people aware,
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A
ticks and giggles, you know, have to keep all those lawyers paid. And sometimes it works. And listen, this guy is a master of rewriting a deal. So perhaps he gets caught up in this and we'll see. It could trip him up. But again, it is a reminder why this deal has never been so easy to pull off.
- [09:44]
B
We should also say that, you know, we were planning to have a big news story about this. There's all kinds of drama. This is separate and apart from the big battle with Fortress, who's trying to collect the money they loaned to Charles Cohen. You know, his properties may go into receivership, but they've pushed back the deadline yet again. So he bought himself another four weeks. So we're gonna have to wait until, gosh, June, July, August. It's gonna be a while before that that issue is resolved. But the Charles Cohen drama continues, and this is just. Just another little stop along the way.
- [10:16]
A
Well, and again, the. Another extension makes you think perhaps something gets resolved here. But something has to change, and we'll see what it is. Something that might change in the building might be related to this next story as well, which is news from Holly Hunt. The brand's parent company confirmed last week that president Mark Safran and creative director Joanna Kornak are out moving forward. The company will be overseen by Maharam's president, Tony Manzari. And this was a big, big announcement coming out of Holly Hunt. What did you make of it, Fred?
- [10:50]
B
Yeah, it's a big story. And we should say that especially Joanna Kornack has been at the company for 25 years. I mean, she really has been almost synonymous with Holly Hunt, especially after Holly left. Mark Saffron, of course, a pod alum and a very beloved guy in the design industry, was, you know, running the show over there. So this is not just a little bit of a, you know, executive switcheroo. This is a significant change for Holly Hunt. And, you know, we should say there were also. There were other layoffs at the same time. I don't know, truthfully know exactly how many. I've heard it was as many as 10. Miller Noel, which owns Holly Hunt, said it wasn't that. But certainly there were other people who lost their jobs as well. And this is very unfortunate. It's very sad. You know, I was on a trip to Los Angeles, which we'll talk about later, for an AI conference thrown by Keith Granite. And many people there were very close with Mark Safran and knew Joanna. And there was a lot of, you know, people were very taken aback by this news, very surprised. And it's a significant change for one of the industry's most iconic brands.
- [11:46]
A
Yeah, indeed. It's a widely admired brand, I should say. In the interest of disclosure, I have many a friend at Holly Hunt. Mark is a longtime friend. And Holly Hunt herself, of course, someone that I've held up on a pedestal for a long time because the company was acquired by Herman Miller and is now part of the Miller Knoll empire of brands. We have a great deal of insight into what is going on there. And it is clear as we, as we look back over the past few quarters and over the past couple of years that Miller Nol has had to write down some of the goodwill or some of the value beyond the assets themselves that was paid for Holly Hunt and some of the other brands that were acquired. And they did call out quite specifically Holly Hunt in some recent quarters saying that something made them want to write down the overall goodwill value there. Usually that's associated with some disappointing sales sales or disappointing estimates of future sales. And of course, Holly Hunt was also folded into the global retail arm of Miller Knoll and Mark Safran was no longer reporting directly to the CEO but to Debbie Propst as part of the global retail. So there were a lot of changes that signaled something was amiss with Holly Hunt.
- [13:11]
B
Yeah. And if you look at Miller Knoll's stock price, it's been on a similar decline as a lot of other sort of homeworld companies over the past here. It's not trading in a great place. And I'm sure that overall getting lean and mean is probably on their minds over there. I don't know. What do you think comes next here? Tony Manzari, another podcast alum, has been president of Maharam for some time. It's interesting to me to see someone who's running a significant fabric brand on top of Holly Hunt, which is a very different kind of company. Tony's obviously a very capable guy, but I'm really curious to see what they ultimately do with this because it really is one of the design industries, trade only brands that has significant scale, significant brand reputation. There's just not many companies like it and it'll be really fascinating to see which direction they choose to push it. What do you feel like the tea leaves are telling you?
- [14:01]
A
I think there's a fear among many that it's going to be pushed more into the retail direction, to your point, and I think you and I were talking before we came on air. I'm looking to see what the next big announcements around to have gotten rid of the creative director suggests that they must want to creatively move the brand in a new direction, perhaps, or bring back some of what they felt Holly Hunt perhaps used to represent. I think if we see them investing heavily in the creative arm and lots of new product, then we will feel perhaps that they're recognizing all that Holly Hunt is to the trade. If we start getting emails saying 20% discount on some Holly Hunt items, if Vladimir Kagan's sofas are being marked down, then I think we might get the sense that it's moving closer to the DWR side of the business. And I think many in the industry are concerned about that. A lot more news to come on this. And I think we'll have to get Tony Manzari when he's ready, when he's caught his breath, we'll have him on the show and he can tell us of his plans. I look forward to hearing about it. In the meantime, we gotta move on, Fred, because we're gonna talk about one of your favorite subjects, actually, Houzz.
- [15:17]
B
Talk about whiplash from Holly Hunt to H. What? Watch out, listeners. So Houzz is not going public. As I said, it's not going public. As I have predicted every year for the past 10 years, Houzz's shopping site, Shop Houzz, is actually winding down. Shop House. The company is not taking any orders and it's told vendors its last day in business is May 22, which by my reckoning, when listeners hear this, will be tomorrow. So. So if you already have a shophouse.com order and check, check on it, because they're not going to be in business for even 24 hours more. This was sort of an interesting kind of wonk. What'd you make of it?
- [15:53]
A
Well, exactly. It sort of put Houzz back on my radar. I hadn't really been thinking about Houzz very much of late, and it hasn't been coming up in conversation a lot. It used to be such a hot button issue, and nothing would get designers worked up quicker than a Houzz conversation. But so many designers sort of wrote in saying, this is so curious. And what happened with Shop Houzz?
- [16:17]
B
Well, you know, the kind of crazy revelation of all this is that Shop Houzz was apparently not actually affiliated with Houzz. Which the very odd thing that I'm. It's a very. I'm going to try and explain it as simply as I can, but when it came out that, you know, Shophouse was shutting down, it was revealed that it was actually had been taken over by something called cart.com in August of 2025 and was run as an affiliated but essentially independent business, at least since then. And cart.com is like an E Commerce roll up, I'm guessing a little bit here. But my guess is that Houzz was just like, the whole shopping ecommerce thing is not really working out. First they spun it off to somebody else to run it, and it just didn't take. And here we are a year later, and even they couldn't make it work. So this is a confusing, perplexing story, but it's funny because what got designers so mad about Houzz in the first place? Was the shopping component. And here we are eight years later and it's gone.
- [17:13]
A
Yeah, exactly. And now I honestly don't know how designers feel about Houzz these days, but Houzz felt like, and we joke about your pre about them coming public. It felt like it was this juggernaut at one point, and it really did feel like it was going to be one of the first big brands in this space to come public and to cash in on all of it. And, oh, what a different day it is now because I just don't even know what I think Houzz represents today for everyone.
- [17:45]
B
It's really telling. I feel like if you talk to us in 2016, if we'd had the podcast back then, there was so much venture money coming into the industry and the idea was always were going to use the power of interior design to take over E Commerce. That was Laurel and Wolf. That was Home Polish, that was mods. That to some degree was Houzz. And at the end of the day, most of these companies are either they don't exist anymore, they got crashed and burned, or spun up into something different. Houzz is now purely just about services. And it really shows you how difficult it is to crack E Commerce for the home. It's nigh on impossible, frankly. I don't know if that's your read as well, but all of that money just kind of went nowhere.
- [18:23]
A
Well, exactly. And whether these. Whether these companies were about themselves as disruptors, to your point, or whether they were just going to democratize design and make it so much more available, the home industry is just so darn impenetrable. And E commerce seemed like such a natural extension for so many of these brands. And smart people were behind them. We've interviewed so many of them over the years, but it's just a wasteland of. Of failed efforts. And we're just in a terrible time. We referenced where Miller Knowles stock is. That's where every home stock is. We talked about it last week. They're all at 52 week lows. Home Depot came out this morning. They're not looking great. So it's just a darn tough time in the entire space.
- [19:09]
B
Yeah. The one company that you can say has had some success is Wayfair, and they've never made money or they've made money like three times in their history. Now, I just want to put a little caveat is that Houzz, the platform still very much exists. It's still a sizable company.
- [19:21]
A
Sure.
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B
They do the services, they do the lead Generation. They're very heavy on AI. I don't think this is the end of Houzz and we'll probably hear more from them. We may hear hear from them about this story, but I think they're on
- [19:32]
A
the phone right now.
- [19:33]
B
Exactly. This is purely Shop Houzz, which as we learned was not actually technically a houzz company. But you know, at one point or another Houzz was trying to do this and it just is an indicator of how. How darn hard it is anyway.
- [19:44]
A
Yes, exactly. How darn hard it is. That's the theme of today's show. There you go. Moving on. We're going to talk about New York Design Week. The city sprawling design festival kicked off last week, including trade shows ICFF and Afternoon Light. And there's so much news around ICFF moving and what's it all going to mean, and I'm curious. Fred and I kept missing each other at both of these shows. What you make of all of this and what you make of what you saw?
- [20:15]
B
Well, I went to the ultimate New York Design Meet activation last week, which was Los Angeles. I went to LA for this AI conference. I think I mentioned this earlier, so I feel a little bit silly because I missed all the fun parties and maybe I shouldn't be chattering about exactly how New York Design Week went, but I did make it to ICFF and Afternoon Light and I certainly heard a lot of chatter in the streets about the move to fall next year. So, yeah, it was good. We did miss each other, actually just yesterday going in between those two shows. Let's start with Afternoon Light. So this was an independent trade show started by Minya Quirk and Deirdre Meloni to veterans of Shop Object. And they launched it as an independent show last year, actually they had a partnership with Anmore that ended. They were in the Star at Lehigh building, just next to ICFF essentially. And this year they moved to a sort of downtown cool, buzzy building, wsa. And you know, it was different because it was in a different building. The venue felt more like true to the spirit of what it was. It's kind of cool and vibey and a little like smaller individual rooms, but it was the same kind of like you had a few of the big European brands like Carl Hansen and usm, but you also had a lot of like independent makers. It was definitely like it's the design fair for the cool kids. And I felt like that's what they're doing and they delivered on it. But what was your Afternoon Light take
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A
Dennis Yeah, I agree. It definitely felt like it was a hip, cool show. Our friends from Rarify had a presence there. And kudos to them. They were also at icfc. They were everywhere.
- [21:41]
B
They're kind of running back and forth. Rarefy won New York design maker. I can say that complex. They're producing this show right now.
- [21:48]
A
I couldn't agree more. They are the ones to watch. But I do feel Afternoon Light reminds me of the fact that there are many reasons to have a show and to be part of a show and the buzz around it and the people you meet and the editorial coverage and the introductions and all of that. And it had a fresh downtown vibe to it. I didn't get the sense that it's the kind of show where you're writing a ton of. And I think that that still seems what icff, and perhaps ICFF running concurrently with BDNY will be more like. But I think it's interesting.
- [22:31]
B
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of where the rubber meets the road, right? Because I think there's no question that Afternoon Light has established itself as a buzzy fare. And I walked the show. I talked to a lot of people. The very first thing almost all of them told me was that the sort of VIP opening night party was awesome. They were like, we met every editor. We'd want to meet all the people to be connected to. And New York's IT scene were there. So there's no question that there's good energy around it. The question is, are you getting your money back on the booth? Are you getting orders Now? I talked to a few people who actually had placed some orders at the show. I talked to Robert Shukrachand of this brand Pernbon, which we actually talked about. He had the whole problem with the logistics company, which is resolved now. So Robert's available for orders, but he sold a few things on the floor. A couple other people made some sales. But the question is, is it's a notably cheaper show. I think the entry price is like $2,200. It's cheaper than a lot of trade shows. So the question is, do you make that money back either through getting media attention or by actually making sales? It's tough because I too, did not see Wayfair's team coming in and placing an order for 10,000 things. But I'd want to talk to individual vendors and see how it went. I will say the energy was good. It felt like a good show. And they seemed determined to stick to the spring, which I guess we'll get to in a minute. But then I made my way uptown to ICFF and took that show. And what'd you make of icf, Denis? I think you beat me to it by a day.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah. I mean, I think icff, on the one hand, I think it's great that they have made the announcement that they did, and we'll talk about that. But I think walking the show, the wanted section, I think felt really great. I think the lookbook section, which our guest Julia Montanez referenced and was overseeing, I think felt very vibrant. And I think that the comparisons to what the show has been in the past, as you were reminding me before we came on air, I need to move on from that, Fred. I need to accept the fact that, of course, it's not the giant show it was back in, I don't know, 2012 or something, but the show feels like Claire and Odile put an incredible effort into putting on this show. And hats off to them, it was full of buzz on Sunday when I was there. And I wonder how it was for you on Monday when you were there.
- [24:46]
B
I feel like ICFF is just a perfect example of the subjective nature of reality. Because if you walk the show and you talk to people who are showing their energy is really good. They're like, oh, that's awesome. I had so many good conversations. And then you talk to people who are kind of thinking of the ICF of 2012, and they're like, it's really small and it's the exact same show. And it really is interesting. I mean, I have to say, I always enjoy it. I always discover something that I haven't seen before. I saw the classic French cafe chair, the Tolix chair. Apparently, it's an ongoing concern. They're revitalizing the brand. I'd never heard of this. That was really interesting to me. Lots of cool little makers in Julia's section. Of course, I do think that. And moving on to the subject of moving into fall in 2027, after walking the show, I'm 100% confident that is the right thing for them to do because they need to restart the narra. Just there's just too much energy of. It's not like it used to be. They need to restart things, move to the fall. And most of the people that I spoke to were positive about the change. What about you? What were the conversations you had about the move to the fall?
- [25:51]
A
Yeah, I agree. And I feel like I have so much history at icff, so I always just am so happy to be there that I have Sort of a distorted view of the whole thing because you bump into so many people you've known for years and everyone's happy to see you. But. But I think to your point, overall, everybody was happy about the move because I think they love the thought of another big show going on. At the same time, it'll make it all feel in their minds like it's part of one big show. I bumped into Alex Bernhardt, who had an interesting perspective, a little bit different from other people in that he often uses ICFF as his dress rehearsal for the big Neocon show in Chicago, and he'll miss the opportunity to have that. And now he feels like he'll have to simultaneously show at ICFF and BDNY and run back and forth. And I think he's up for it because he has the opportunity to sell to all those markets. Good for him. But he was the only one who sort of suggested that it was going to be a little bit of a shift for his team. I think overall people are thrilled to have just a bigger audience coming to both shows.
- [26:58]
B
Yeah. And it's interesting because I feel like the reason for moving it was, oh, the spring calendar is crowded, which I think is true. And certainly design editors who are schlepping all over the place will welcome this change, will welcome the break. But for most people I talked to was all about, yeah, I can't wait to be next to BDNY because I want to do a big hotel project. And that was really truly the watchword. It's like, hopefully they come over here and buy 10,000 of my lamps. So I think the energy from people there was largely positive. It was largely about being adjacent to BDNY and the idea of what if it was even at the same time as one of the sort of collectible design shows like a salon, what if it was really, that was a big mega event. They certainly would not be in Javits. But creating one super powerful New York big design trade show weekend was certainly appealing to a lot of people. Now to flip it over to NYC by Design and Design Week and that staying in the spring, I think we're on a little bit opposite sides of this debate because I feel like you feel inevitably it's just all going to move to the fall or there's going to be strong movement in that direction. After talking to people, I'm not so sure. There was a lot of commitment to staying in the spring. I guess we'll see in 2027. But there was more. People kind of dug in on that than I thought there would be.
- [28:07]
A
I completely agree. And I'll tell you honestly Fred, my opinion on the whole thing was changing every hour. The more people that I spoke to, I was like, oh wow, you're right, I do see your point. I mean bumping into Minya Quirk who is behind Afternoon Light. As I walked into the show, she made it emphatically clear to me that she will not be moving to November. And she gave me the reasons why. And I get it. And so I think come hecker high water she is going to be there in May of next year. And we'll see. And listen, NYC by design. I think some things are going to change there whether or not they really move to November. We'll see. I think that people need to get their arms around some things and that was clear and so we'll see. A lot can happen between now and November of next year, but ICFF and BDNY seems like a good thing. And let's see what happens in May of next year. But I'm sort of with you. My opinions which were once firm are much softer now, Fred, on the whole thing.
- [29:09]
B
Yeah, it may be the win, win, win that you once hoped for. We may get it.
- [29:13]
A
Yes, exactly. The win, win, win. And everyone comes in May and enjoys themselves at some new thing. And I look forward to discovering what that is. Perhaps it will be Art Deco, which is the next thing we're going to talk about. And really, will Art Deco overtake the world?
- [29:29]
B
Let's find out when we discuss a story by boh's Jenn Fernandez. This week she wrote about why Art Deco may be taking the place of mid century modern as the next big aesthetic to take over the interior design industry. And Jen did a lot of deep digging. She looked at Pinterest trend reports. She looked at first dibs data. She spoke to trend forecasters. She spoke to Corey Damon Jenkins. She really touched all the different parts of the design industry to come back with the inescapable conclusion that Art Deco is, is here to stay. But I guess implicit in the, in the conversation is this idea of, you know, is mid century modern's moment over? Has it already been over? It's been such a long time where that was kind of the default basic aesthetic, especially at a retail level. I'm curious what you, what you think. Where are we on the MCM curve? Dennis?
- [30:16]
A
Well, I thought it was a really great piece by Jan and I think to your point, there were so many different areas that she explored and sometimes I wonder, is it design journalists that want Mid Century Modern to be over. Or is it designers? Sometimes I can't tell. But I do feel like there are signs of cracks in the armor and I do feel like perhaps this is an opportunity where there really will be a change. And she pointed to so many signs within the article, whether it was Athena Calderon's Tribeca apartment or as you mentioned, Corey Damon Jenkins sort of Jazz Age inspired lighting collection with Eichol. I think there were a lot of signs that you could point to. I'm just not sure that Art Deco is easy to everyone to get on board with.
- [31:04]
B
Yeah, that's the kind of convenient thing about Mid Century Modern. Right. Is like we all love to point out, oh, it came around during the Mad Men era and people had sort of been exploring it. And of course, Gary Friedman's classic point that trends come from people dying and going into estate sales and it was perfectly timed to rise. But I think part of the reason why it's been such a long running style is because it's easy, it's easier. Well, I don't know if it's easy oversimplification, but it's comparatively simpler for manufacturers to produce. It's a little easier to design around than a lot of faceted glass and curved sofas and jewel tones. It's a little bit of a more plug and play aesthetic. And now I'm going to get a lot of emails from people like Mid Century Modern. I apologize, but I like Mid Century Modern for what it's worth. But yeah, it may be a little trickier. And it's hard for me to imagine every living room in America looking like some, you know, Jazz Age fantasia. But I do think the signs are undeniable. I think it's out there. You see it almost everywhere you look.
- [31:58]
A
I agree, you do see it a lot more than you ever did. And the question is, and a lot of designers bring this up, can you warm up Art Deco? Can you make a warm and cozy space, a place where kids and dogs can run free? And that's where I think people sort of scratch their heads a little bit. I think it's terribly shocking. And I've always loved Art Deco because of course, I tend to overdress, Fred, as you know. So a room that's overdressed is perfect for me. But I think some people worry, oh, really? Can it feel as cozy and warm?
- [32:32]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, that's the challenge for people who can actually design, not us to figure out. But I do sincerely think that. And Jen talked to A lot of people in the piece and this is really just a long advertisement. You should read the piece. But you talked to people about how it's a little bit of a sort of softer take, kind of more of a, a Chrysler Building art deco than an Empire State building art deco, sort of more curvy, softer, maybe a little simpler, not quite as intricate. More than anything, I actually do think mid century modern is again, this is an iconic style and will always be meaningful and people will always care about mid century modern. But I do think it's a little past its peak. My favorite indicator is actually if you look at listings on Facebook Marketplace, there was a period where literally any piece of furniture was MCM, whatever it was, whether it was from 1985, it was like MCM bed or whatever. And I feel like now you do see all different kind. I spent a lot of time on Facebook Marketplace. You see a lot of people type in brutalist even though it's not brutalist or art deco even though it's not art deco. So it's the language that people use to sort of signify just designy has moved away from mid century modern. So I think we're, whatever it is, I think we're headed out of that era for sure.
- [33:41]
A
Interesting. Okay, well, we'll have to keep an eye out. And as you say, this is one big long ad to read Jen's piece and you should. And I'm sorry I didn't put up a poll before we went on air to hear what a bunch of designers are thinking about this. I hope that they will write to us and let us know because I do think we're going to be talking about this a lot because again, the shift is clearly on. We'll see. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including June's Can't Miss Design events and a Q and a with the founders of Afternoon Light. But first, a quick break. Today's homes need to perform, not just look beautiful. Resource Furniture specializes in Italian crafted solutions designed for more than one moment. Spaces that shift seamlessly from home office to guest room, from intimate dinner to extended family gathering. Their furniture goes beyond single purpose design, adapting to how people live and work. Resources. Showrooms offer hands on experience with these transforming systems and their trade program provides dedicated support including 3D renderings on site measurements and white glove installation. Visit resourcefurniture.com to join their trade program and discover furniture designed to do more than sit still furniture that helps your clients live better if you're in the middle of sourcing. Laloy's latest introductions are now available online. That includes the new Rain collection, many other new collections from the brand, and the newest designs from Rifle Paper Company by laloy. You can explore it all, connect with a sales rep, or find the showroom nearest you@leloyrugs.com. And we're back. I'm joined now by Susan Clark, who is the founder of Radnor. Susan, welcome to the show.
- [35:43]
C
Thank you so much. Excited to be here here.
- [35:45]
A
Thrilled to have you and eager to walk people through everything that you've done. Let's tell that story really quickly so we can explain to people what Radner is and this sort of remarkable business that you've built over the years.
- [36:01]
C
Radner, wow. To tell the story, I've been in New York about 20 years, so born and raised, Nashville, Tennessee. Radner is actually named after a nature preserve, which is the first place that my father ever took me hiking in Nashville. Really the earliness of my childhood, going to the Tennessee craft fair and traveling across country with him, sort of looking at different methodologies of craft and art throughout across the country, was kind of the impetus to what sparked my curiosity. So flash forward through years of working as a professional glassblower, blacksmithing, traditional weaving, sort of in a mountain school in Appalachia, and then finally moving to New York about 20 years ago and bringing my first design collections here. My glassware went to school a little bit at Parsons for my graduate degree in architecture and lighting design. And then very quickly learned that what I really wanted to do was kind of create a space and an environment where I could continue to make work. Architecture, as much as I love it, the all encompassing long distance of, of it, I think made me miss the immediate gratification of product.
- [37:13]
A
Do you love it? Do you love architecture? I don't know. People who are no longer doing architecture love to say, oh, no, no, no, I. Oh, I love it. Oh, no, no. I'm so glad that I studied it for all those years. Oh, sure. No, I'm not doing it now. Oh, no, no, yeah. I mean, and I'm much happier now. But also, I mean, architecture, sure, great.
- [37:32]
C
I mean, it's so prestigious. It's like, it's intimidating to say, you know, that I can. Couldn't look at another Kohler faucet or I would kill myself. But yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I definitely, around the time that I was working in the office, I realized how hard it is and how difficult it was for our clients now to get a way to even look at product or, you know, which really is why I built the model the way I did with the residential spaces and all of that, to help them kind of explain to their clients how to live with the work work and, and
- [38:06]
A
let's talk about that, building this model with the residential spaces and, and where that whole notion came from and, and let's get into some of the practicalities of that, but first tell us what you, what you mean and, and what
- [38:19]
C
you've, you've built out really for Radner. I think when I, when I first started the programming, I focused on Radner made. So I always knew I wanted to have a portion of our in house product and then a portion of it being Radner represented. Where we support artists and designers who are creating their own work by their own hand. The more avant garde experimental pieces is really where I found, working in the trade that our private clients had a hard time understanding, like what is the livability of that work. So pretty much from the beginning I was seeking out spaces that were livable experiences, which is why our very first gallery was at the David Chipperfield Bryant. So we did a petite apartment and that way it was able to kind of all also explained to me what I was missing in our product collections as I was developing them and what scales and sizes were really needed for the home.
- [39:11]
A
So when your client is shopping with you, and I assume the majority of your clients are interior designers, architects.
- [39:18]
C
Yeah, like 90%.
- [39:20]
A
90%. That would totally make sense to me. And what I would assume. So when people are coming to you and you're sharing with them the array of artisans that work with you, how do you present it to them? What do you explain to them as far as what can be done, what these products are and all of that.
- [39:39]
C
Yeah, it's very much like welcoming them into our home. Teaching is kind of the key phrase that comes up. I think about it as a tour into the worlds of each of the artisans and designers that we work with and kind of explaining to them how the work is made, the techniques that are used. So we really want our, our kind of interior designers and architects to walk away understanding the ethos of our artisans and then understanding the methodologies of how everything's working so that they can fully kind of customize or express that design within the home that they're trying to create.
- [40:12]
A
And as far as the spaces, so you mentioned the very first apartment space that you, that you developed and, and you've Grown in multiple spaces now. And. And so some. Some far more sizable than you've. Than you've had in the past. How's that going for you?
- [40:29]
C
Yeah, well, yes, pretty big year. We just launched our. We officially now have 11,000 square feet in New York, spread between Manhattan and Brooklyn. So we have taken over the 92nd floor at the very, very top of the Brooklyn Tower. And that is done by shop architect. And then we also have the 70th floor and the Upper east side in Thomas Johansen's Sutton Tower.
- [40:57]
A
And when people are walking through so a designer comes to see the space, are they often with a client in tow or are they coming to sort of scout it out themselves ahead of time and understand a bit better how it all works? Tell me what happens in real time.
- [41:11]
C
Wonderful question. Yeah, it's both methodologies. So oftentimes we'll bring the firm in in. They'll come through and do a preliminary tour. They're interested in trying to find a specific set of pieces. Then once they've gotten to know us, and the trade team, or my sales trade team is kind of doing presentations at offices to teach them about the work and then also bringing them in for a happy hour where we try to bring the whole staff through in order to sit and kind of live in the work a little bit. And then we also do the tours during the day, and then they eventually bring their clients back. So when they're on the hunt for a particular piece, then they bring their private client and they can either, you know, really, we do private tours, so it's like you're confirming your own appointment. The space is kind of yours for that hour. Our team can either take you through as a tour, or if you want to kind of bring your work, lay it out, and even have your meeting there. It's something that we kind of want them to live within and. And utilize so that you can envision it a little bit better when you. You're pitching to your private client.
- [42:12]
A
And the educational component which you've referred to, what do you find people need educating about? What do they need to understand better?
- [42:22]
C
Oftentimes it's really about the technique of manufacturing. Right. And then I think there's two reasons why I think that's important. One is in order for the interior designer architect to understand how to extrapolate that work. There are parameters that are naturally within certain methodologies of making. So if, if you're, you know, oh, I love this aesthetic. How far can we take it before you're even pitching it? To your private client. It's our team's job to kind of let you know. These are the parameters within which you can kind of push the limits of certain products. And the other reason that's so important to me is to understand what it takes to make this work. Right. And a lot of the work that we represent, like Master Tokunaga, he's a. Toshio Tokunaga, he's 71. He's a master of woodworking based in the northern Hyogo prefecture of Japan. He's created work that's in the national. It's a national treasure of Japan, is only brought out every 16 years, you know. And he doesn't use sandpaper. He uses the methodology of Kana, which is a series of custom planers that he stands basically hand planes the wood down into its final finish. And I think when you understand how that technique works and you see the hand woven washi on top of the body of wood, then you start to understand, okay, this is why it costs the level that it costs. But really understanding this more higher level of collectible work that we're showing, which is a key phrase.
- [43:52]
A
I know, look at you going right to collectible. I mean, I just. I know, I know it gets you excited because all joking aside, I think you feel, as I do, that sometimes it's a word that's bandied about and. Right. And not everything that's just made in a small quantity is necessarily collectible or it's coined.
- [44:14]
C
Right? It's been deemed, yes.
- [44:17]
A
But I mean, it does seem to mean a lot of things. And truthfully, unfortunately, I think some people hear collectible and they think, oh, no, no, no, I want something livable or I want something real or. Right. And I don't think they want it to be collectible. So there's that issue. Right. As well. Well,
- [44:33]
C
but I don't think, I think when you and I, we've talked about this before, but when we talked about collectibility, you know, especially for me, I'm thinking about materiality, the source of that material. You know, we've produced x many tables in stone. There's only so many available. And in the history of what is collectible, at the auction of Christie's, it's the same thing where there's only so many genre beds, there's only so many Wharton sofas. You know, it's that kind of limitation, but in the natural nature of that material. So we only have so many of this tree. This tree is 350 years old. This artwork, this Weaving. There's only one. One of a kind. So. And the techniques are so complicated that it's not something that can be reproduced or it's the natural dyes as opposed to, you know, it's so rarefied and expensive. It should be collectible. You know, it's like very different.
- [45:25]
A
Well, I mean, what I'm also so curious about and the apartment model itself. So so many people who have showrooms in, let's say, the D and D building, for example, right. They think about, oh, should I do this apartment model? Should I do this thing? You once sort of had this landscape all to yourself, Right.
- [45:47]
C
Remember when. Yes.
- [45:49]
A
And now lots of people have moved into this because they found, much like you did, that actually someone into your home makes it feel much warmer, more personal. And you can really show them an entire apartment or a home outfitted with all of this. But to many, it seems scary to be off the beaten path. Right. And in these spaces where people have to go out of their way to come. What have you found?
- [46:18]
C
It was really kind of comforting. I think a lot of people found. We found our clients would come back repeatedly. I think that was something where they felt welcomed into a space, as opposed. As opposed to being kind of walking into a retail store and feeling the pressure of the dynamic between the salesperson and the shopper or the trade. Right. The client. I think that that allowed a lot of room for people to feel a little bit more relaxed in the space. It also, I think a lot of clients, and we talk about it too, focused on. Felt the physiological, like, calmness of it. And I think it allowed us to create a world which, oh, my gosh, look at apparatus. They create an entire world so that you can understand, like, their vision and brand and style and materiality. And you just want to pull a piece of that into your own home, you know, but it is. It's difficult. You've got to do the work, especially when it comes to your business being predominantly traded, to bring them in and find a different way. I think for us, we've changed locations, so it's been really nice. Every few years, we shift into a new apartment, you know, which allows us to kind of understand new parameters. And then that generates curiosity from our clients. They want to see the new space and understand how that building is and, you know, then therefore bring their clients in. But it's an interesting landscape because now that there's so many out there, it's, you know, what is the next. Like, how is it going to be? And there's still A lot to accredit to people who have the spaces in the dnd. And for you to have a bare space that allows an interior designer to not be, you know, basically given only one perspective of how to use your work, you know, or a client. It's like they can see it in different sort of methodologies and aptitudes when it's on its own. So I don't know if now in this modern era, if one is better or not. I think they're two different ways. And maybe some appeals to more clients more than the other.
- [48:16]
A
It's interesting because of course you can control that. And it's so interesting. And we talk about the D and D building. I don't mean to pick on the D and D building. Or do I? But I mean, so here's this building where right there. It's half occupied, let's say. But so many of the people that are still there, and maybe it's Stockholm syndrome or something, but they will tell you, look, dude, the reason I'm still here is because I have this guaranteed flow of traffic, right? I know that X number of designers. And sure, it's not as many as it used to be 10 years ago, but it's still going to be a certain amount of people are going to show up. And when you're over on Sutton Place or right, or you're in Brooklyn Tower, you're wondering, are they going to come today and see us? And are they going to. I mean, are these appointments really showing up? I mean, that's the, the thing. It's a trade off.
- [49:02]
C
It's true, it's true. The New York Design center, there's another one where you have like a preset group of people come by. It's a guarantee. And it's true. I think even I remember back to being in my interiors and architecture days and I remember the D and D just being so overwhelming. It was like. And maybe that's part of it, it's so many options. It's like it's almost too much sometimes, or it's your kid in a candy shop. It just depends on, on your style, right? Or which methodology works better for you and your client. But I think no matter what, because even in the dnd, if you are not changing up your showroom and your space enough for the client, it's still going to be difficult to get them in. So it's the same conundrum almost. It just depends on which one feels fresher at the time. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think they probably have the same conundrum trying to get their clients in. Although, yes, you have a better foot traffic chance to a certain extent. I don't know. It's hard to say, I feel like. Because I haven't been in one of those yet, so it's hard for me to fully compare.
- [50:04]
A
But, yeah, I'm curious your perspective. So, so much of what New York Design Week is about is a lot of artists and craftspeople showing their work, whether it's lighting or their furniture stuff or they're coming out with all sorts of things. And I wonder what the feeling is among that community about sort of where we are in this moment in time. Is it harder for people to break through today? Is it harder for them to get discovered and get seen? I felt like a lot of what I was seeing around New York were people that were really hoping somebody like you would come along and say, hey, love your work. I'd love to sign you up and bring you into my next glamorous apartment up in the sky. And I wonder if they're. If they're feeling like there's as much possibility for that. And would New York Design Week be the kind of show where you would find somebody?
- [51:05]
C
That's such a good question. Because it really is, though, because the Internet has completely exploded our sense of territory. You know what I mean? Like, in the sense of even our trade shows necessary, you know, and. And. And our galleries necessary. Like, do we need to have this footprint here? Could our footprint be anywhere? You know, do you just need to see the physical work at some point? I think our interior designers and architects would argue yes. Our clients need to sit on things. You know, we need to. We need to see it in person. But really, once they know the work, once a client knows the work, do they really need to come back and see it over and over? I don't. I don't think so. So a young designer can have such a strong voice without having to be in New York in particular. Right. But if you feel as though you're not being sought out through the Internet, or if you are not a digital person. Right. Which I think just because you're an insane maker doesn't always mean you're good at marketing yourself. It's difficult, I think. Yes. Being able to go to a trade show is a wonderful opportunity for people to see your work in person. I would argue even more. So it's a wonderful opportunity for you. Get direct sales.
- [52:17]
A
Yes.
- [52:17]
C
Right. I think especially being at a show like ICFF will offer you an opportunity to kind of be in a wholesale relationship or get direct sales from clients. And honestly, it's not cheap either. So if you're just starting out and you're trying to do this trade show, it's a massive investment for just three to four days. And similar to the D and D, you're going to get a lot of foot traffic. Traffic. And you're hoping that it's the right foot traffic.
- [52:43]
A
Exactly.
- [52:43]
C
But for galleries like me, it's, you know, almost the more you're exposed, the more difficult it does it is for us to kind of have the exclusivity of you. Right. And. And I think that when our designers are in so many multiple galleries, our clients lose the preciousness of those pieces, you know, And I. It's funny, I had another interior designer the other day that was talking to me about the beauty of that feeling of discovery and how kind of rare that is now in these days. And so, I don't know. It's a. It's a great question. I think if you did a mix of being able to present your work, I think the most important thing that you can probably do is to make sure that your holistic identity online is probably the most important thing you could focus on. Right. That. That understanding your world, like, this is my aesthetic. This is my body of work. For any designer out there, it's like the more you can be fully in your own voice visually and represent that, then you'll eventually make enough money to be able to go do the trade show. You can pursue your path, or to
- [53:58]
A
your point, maybe by the time that comes, you know, if you feel like, no, I don't need to be at some trade show. I've got. Suzanne Lovell is lining up to specify me, you know.
- [54:08]
B
Right.
- [54:08]
A
All the time. So what do I. What do I need that stinking trade show for? But, I mean, it's just so interesting to me because even. Even more than usual, we're having these big conversations about it because of the announcement of ICFF moving to November, and. And everyone wondering, what will that mean for New York Design Week and what will this all look like in May? And many, many have said quite clearly that they'll still be doing whatever it is they're doing now in May next year, and look for that. And Afternoon Light, this show that showed a lot of makers absolutely emphatically says, right, yeah, they said we'll be here in May and we're not moving. And I totally get it. And so I'm curious, maybe May becomes a time where even More things blossom and they don't need this big tentpole event of icff. And ICFF can go and be with bdny and that can bring a whole other group of people together.
- [55:03]
C
Right.
- [55:04]
A
Which will also be interesting. And those hospitality specifiers can go to both shows, I hope. Right. And maybe all sorts of people get discovered and seen. I wonder, does it do anything to affect the tide of what you experience? So this week, for example, example, were you inundated with out of town designers?
- [55:27]
C
Yes, absolutely. That's the thing is even you know, if you're having a launch or an activation or everyone's been following you and they want to come see the work in person, like this is the chance for them to come by. I mean, part of me has a little bit of anxiety that we're going to do May and November now.
- [55:44]
A
That's what I'm thinking. That's exactly.
- [55:48]
C
And I'm like, no, I think you're
- [55:50]
A
going to be opening up apartments. People are going to think you're in the realm estate business.
- [55:54]
C
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. There's no escape. Yeah, no, I, I, I mean, it's only beneficial. It does make me excited though. This year in particular for New York was, wow, it was big. It felt like New York was back. So many events and the scale and it was exciting to see so many young people and up and coming designers coming into the scene and then seeing the houses that have been established over the years kind of doing this, their programming. But I mean, back to back, just so many events and it really, what I like about this sort of renegade independent studio is that it feels like Milan, it feels like Copenhagen, it feels like you're exploring. The city of New York is open to design as opposed to just this one Javits Center.
- [56:39]
A
I mean, as cool as the Javits center is, right? I mean, the windowless lower layer of the Javits Center, I mean, I mean, don't tell me that's not the coolest space in New York City. Wait, there's more, there's more to see than that.
- [56:55]
C
It's a site in and of itself, you know?
- [56:57]
A
Yeah, no, no, no question. Listen, I feel, I mean, to your point earlier, apparatus without icff, who knows, right?
- [57:06]
C
I mean, that's an interesting question. We all, everyone, everyone did a show there. Radner never has done a trade show.
- [57:12]
A
You never broke down and did a trade show?
- [57:14]
C
I never did. I, I think, I think after working them for so many years, I couldn't do it.
- [57:19]
A
Yeah, no, no, I get that. I get that. And, you know, and I. And I think we had a guest on recently who was. Who was making the distinction between design shows and trade shows. Right. And all of that. And I. I get that as well. I mean, part of me wonders. And again, this is going back to thinking about what these artists need to have happen. I wonder. Like, at Afternoon Light, it seemed like they were so excited that so many people from the press came and so many. Right. And so many cool people just kind of came around and maybe saw them and interacted with them. And even if they didn't necessarily write a book full of orders, maybe they got. Right. Maybe they got on so many people's radar. Right. And they also said to me, Many of them said to me, you know, who came through a lot was product designers and sort of interesting people, people that maybe you collaborate with in some other way or maybe you form a relationship with. So I sort of feel like it's all good exposure. I just want to make sure that everyone gets paid at the end of the day.
- [58:20]
C
Like, you know what I mean? Like you were saying, like, that's so nice, Dennis.
- [58:24]
A
Well, that's a thing. Like, I just want people to, like, make money and make a living from it. And, you know, you gotta pay for a booth and you gotta pay to promote it and all of that. And I just. I just want people to. To make money. And so I like shows where you feel like people are actually, hey, great, I'll take 12 of those. Or let me.
- [58:42]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think above all, it's the conversation of community, too. Like, we're all isolated in our own studios creating, creating, creating. And then here's this wonderful moment where you're finally experiencing other people experiencing your work, especially if you're a small studio artist or designer. It's like you're finally in the conversation and learning feedback on your own work, and me expose to other people's work. And I think that's. That's really important.
- [59:06]
A
Well, and. And speaking of which, so you are also a maker yourself, and very, very much like still having your hand in. In all of that. So tell us what you're up to there.
- [59:19]
C
So I just recently launched a collection under my own name for Design Within Reach. We launched the Pinna dining table and the Contra upholstery system. Both are doing so well, and it's been such a great relationship, so we're continuing to work together, and I'm designing more collections for them, so you'll see more coming out in the near future. Yeah, it's Actually such a. It's a wonderful break for me. It's like pulling my head out of the gallery and being able to go back into purely the conversation of design and development and really designing for another brand in a way that's been a really, really nice challenge and experience. And they're such a great brand to work with. It's like, you know, basically I was able to go visit the Herman Miller Innovation Lab and kind of meet the innovators of the Aeronon chair and talk through all the different methodologies and systems there, which was really so exciting for someone coming out of a fabrication background. And it's just really lovely.
- [60:23]
A
Well, there's so much design history under the umbrella of that whole company now with Noel and Herman Miller and all of it. And so I love their archives and I hope that they take good care of Holly Hunt and some of the other brands that they are stewarding through this process. Right now. I'm wondering. Wait for it. About Art Deco, Susan, are you ready to tell me that you're seeing signs of mid century Moss modern finally giving way? Which I would think would upset Miller Noel tremendously. So I, you know, I don't want to harp on that too much, but they seem pretty invested in that space and that and that time period. But I wonder, I wonder. I mean, is Art Deco, does it have.
- [61:12]
C
It's coming.
- [61:12]
A
Is it?
- [61:13]
C
You know, it's coming. Yeah. Look at all that. Look at all this marketing material in our industry.
- [61:18]
A
So where are you seeing it? Where are you seeing it show up in a. In a meaningful way that makes you. You think it's coming or do you want it to come? Is that really what you're saying?
- [61:25]
C
I want. I want it. I want it.
- [61:27]
A
Okay, okay.
- [61:29]
C
No, no, I think we're seeing it. I mean, I think we're also seeing, you know, the growth, basically. Deco is something that we've seen very prevalent in, like, Mexico City, which is becoming a burgeoning design sort of mecca for our community. And you're seeing it all over Roma, just on the buildings alone, the history of the spaces. And I think, think that's trickling into a lot of the branding that we're seeing, a lot of the color relationships, some of the marketing. Whenever we're using these invitations, we're starting to see some of the fonts, you know, which are so satisfying. And I think some of that metal, like the chrome and, you know, this era of the, the brass with the walnut is like, you know, everybody's ready for the, like nickel and satin and Aluminum, you know, So I think we're looking at this kind. Kind of push towards a different kind of materiality and texture and feel. And I think there's something about Deco and kind of the scale and the relationship of those things that's. That's exciting for all of us.
- [62:30]
A
And can we make Deco warm and cozy and Golden Retriever like and that we can curl up?
- [62:37]
C
I mean, golden retriever might be a little bit of a stretch to this, but
- [62:43]
A
I needed to be. I needed to be so comfortable that the golden retriever I wish I had could be right there next to me. I have no golden retriever, sadly, but I just always want to be ready in case one shows up. Susan, it's impossible to fully describe the pleasure of having you on the show today, and I really. I encourage people to come and visit your apartments in the sky because it's come for the furniture, stay for the views. There's so much to offer, and she'll make you a cappuccino. So I'm. I mean, it's all good, but really, thank you. A pleasure.
- [63:19]
C
It is a pleasure. Thank you, Dennis. Thank you so much.
- [63:27]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [63:35]
B
Havenly caught my eye, as it often does. Cast your mind back a few months, Dennis, when we got the shocking news that Nordic knots had raised $100 million. Real proof that, you know, there's money in the rugs right now. And I was thinking, well, why didn't Havenly try and buy Nordic Knots? Or why hasn't Havenly bought a rug brand? Because, you know, that's. That's Havenly's M.O. they buy, they acquire, and lo and behold, they're launching a rug brand called Weft. I think it makes all the sense in the world, and I'm really interested to see how it does. You know, we've had Lee on the. The podcast several times. I'm sure we'll have her on again for her next acquisition, so maybe she can talk about this. But clear, clearly, rugs. Rugs remain hot. Art deco rugs, I think, is where it's at for. For next year. Did you see that one, Dennis?
- [64:19]
A
I did, and I. And I can't wait to see what she does in that space. And I think exactly. Everyone is tripping over themselves, as we've talked about many times, to get into rugs.
- [64:28]
B
Exactly. All right, what caught you this week, Dennis?
- [64:30]
A
A couple things caught my eye. We were talking earlier about icff, and one of the really fun products that was on display was from a company called British American Camping, and it was a tent, but a tent up on stilts, so to speak, with a little bit of a climb up. And I have this fantasy of camping out in the backyard, but I. I could never convince the lovely Mrs. Scully because she didn't want the tent on the ground with all the wild animals running around. And this is the. This is the perfect solution. And I. I think that this was a brilliant display on their part. I hope lots of people got to see that. And I just may have to place an order for this one, Fred, because
- [65:09]
B
that's where we need to be. The wild animals of Bronxville. The dangerous animals of Bronxville. Yeah, I thought that was cool. It has a. You know, for all the people complain about icff, you still discover interesting and weird fun things, and that giant British tent was certainly one of them.
- [65:23]
A
I very much. The other thing that caught my eye this morning, just before we came on air, I was downtown in Ken Folk's creative shop down in Tribeca. He's got a new product introduction with perennials rugs fabric. There was a bunch of upholstery on teak furniture that looked amazing. A really fun new collection that I gather won't be out for a little while. This was kind of a sneak peek for the press, but it is a. It is a very fun collection. And I have to say, between the recent collab that I saw with Michael Smith and Sanderson, which was also outdoor and really fun, I'm. I'm reminded of. Of why you do these great designer collabs. Both of these product lines, I think, just took the product in a. In a direction that they might not have gone in on their own. And, And I think this. This new introduction with Ken Folk is highly marketable, I think will do really well, and I think people are going to be enjoying it a great deal.
- [66:24]
B
Ken Folk doesn't miss. I think it's going to be a good one.
- [66:26]
A
Yeah. To be sure. He's a star, that Ken Folk. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome. Com. This episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus. And Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. We're taking a quick break for the Memorial Day holiday, so we'll be back with you next Thursday.