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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Why did RH buy three trade brands? Plus: Charlotte Moss on designing an entire showhouse herself
00:57:25
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, legendary designer Charlotte Moss joins the show to talk about her latest project, the Southern Living Idea House.
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- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be chatting with interior designer Charlotte Moss. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including RH's new acquisitions, what's going on with Industry west, and a look at design on Reddit. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicolas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:30]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:32]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:33]
B
I'm tired, Dennis. I'm not gonna lie. Oh, dear. I've written, like, one story a day for the past week.
- [00:41]
A
As listeners will discover in this show, there's a lot of stories that Fred's.
- [00:46]
B
Been putting out, a lot of.
- [00:47]
A
Lot of substantial news coming out.
- [00:49]
B
In case people don't know we do stuff outside of this podcast. Our entire jobs are not just to talk one hour every week. Although this is the most important part of both of our jobs.
- [01:01]
A
Of course, the part that Fred cares about the most is what it means to.
- [01:04]
B
Yes, exactly. That is what I meant to say. But, yes, I'm a little tired, but not too tired to look back on. A great episode. Monday's show, your conversation with Ashley Montgomery, lovely Canadian designer. A lot of interesting thoughts, a lot of realness was a great episode.
- [01:18]
A
Well, I'm so glad you feel that way. I had the pleasure of meeting Ashley as she came to her first high point ever this past spring. She was on a panel with me, and I fell for her right away, and I thought, we've got to get her on the show. Little did I know, Fred, that there was so much to talk about.
- [01:40]
B
Yeah, a lot to get into and, you know, sort of an emotional subject. You know, she had divorced with her husband, who was also her business partner. And, you know, those kinds of splits are never easy. It's, you know, both the professional and the personal, you know, trauma of it all. But, you know, she was very, you know, for the better. We're both in a good place. And she talked very candidly and openly about, you know, getting through that and how it made her a stronger designer. And I think a lot of people will just relate to that story, you know, even if it's not splitting up with someone you're romantically involved with. If it's just splitting up with a business partner, it's very hard, and people don't want to talk about it. And I think that, like, Ashley was incredibly open, and I'm really glad that she was, because I think a lot of people will get something out of it. There's also just good little fun business stuff. I mean, she talked about like markups. There's a lot of great, you know, design business stuff in there as well. But it's certainly one to listen to for anyone who has ever, you know, experienced that kind of split.
- [02:34]
A
Absolutely. And I so admire and I'm grateful to Ashley for her, her bravery and her and her candor. It was, it was a very open conversation right out of the gate and she just put it all out there. And we talked about, we talked about a lot of things having to do with her, with her business. And she's got a very successful operation up there in Canada. Sadly, it's pretty expensive to get some of that American product up to Canada, which she talks about pretty candidly as well. So lot to lot to learn from that episode. I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Fred, and I hope everyone else will too. All right, we're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Instantly transform your client's home and deliver on their personal vision with Ernesta's high quality custom size rugs. Featuring a wide selection of premium materials and timeless designs, each of Ernesta's custom size rugs is cut to order and delivered in as little as two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade member benefits, you get exclusive discounts, dedicated support and unlimited samples. To learn more about Ernesta's trade program, visit ernesta.com boh and now on with the show. And we're back. First up, Fred, it's not going to be tariffs. We're going to talk about rh.
- [04:07]
B
It's Christmas morning, Dennis. Talk about Restoration Hardware first thing on the pod. For the first time in several years, the company formerly known as Restoration Hardware has made some acquisitions. Chairman, CEO and biggest shareholder Gary Friedman has picked up three trade focused brands, Dennis and Lean Formations and Michael Taylor Designs. Would you say these acquisitions are intriguing or surprising, Dennis, what do you think?
- [04:32]
A
I think they're a combination there, Fred. I think this whole thing is very intriguing, a little bit surprising and certainly something that I'm eager to discuss. We should start by explaining what these three companies are and what parallels there are running through them, if any.
- [04:50]
B
Absolutely. Let's go there. So Dennis and Lean and Formations kind of go together. So these are Los Angeles based brands. Certainly many LA designers will know them. Several former guests of this podcast are big fans of these companies. They have two conjoined showrooms on Melrose. There's sort of Two separate showrooms and furniture brand by the same designers, including Richard Hallberg. By all accounts, thriving businesses. High end furniture. Michael Taylor design is a little bit of a different situation because, you know, of course it was started by the iconic California decorator back in the 80s, you know, became a big brand. Apparently. This is a little bit before my time in the 90s after Michael Taylor passed away. But it was a big brand, I think, in the 90s and early 2000s. But then in more in recent years, I think it's gone away a little bit. There is, you know, their social media isn't really active. There was a couple lawsuits I checked out. And so, you know, I think this one is being bought out of, you know, some. Some form of neglect or dispos stress. So three very different kinds of companies. And I was certainly surprised to hear all the rumors about them being acquired together. This was one that kind of, you know, we heard this one on the grapevine. I think you've heard about it as well, right?
- [05:55]
A
Yes. You started to get a lot of people asking about it and a lot of people are friendly with all of these different people. And so the news did start to seep out. And certainly when RH is making acquisitions, it gets a lot of attention. But often in the past we've talked about RH making acquisitions more to acquire capacity and upholstery skills with some of the previous companies that they've acquired. This seems a little bit different.
- [06:24]
B
Yeah, well, I was actually really confused about these acquisitions when I first heard the rumor mill grinding as it did, because RH is a big company. They're a really, really big retail company. They're publicly traded. And no investor is going to be like, they bought Michael Taylor. That's going to send the stock up. So it's not a company that you buy for its additional capacity or the dollars. It's in the door. You buy it for a different reason. I thought we were going to have to go to press on this story without a comment from rh. But then at the very last minute, I got on the phone of the late night call with Gary Friedman and he explained that what these two acquisitions are about is this new aesthetic that he wants RH to move into this new project basically to come up with the next thing after RH Contemporary. If you've listened to one of these earnings calls, as Dennis and I do, very excessively over a bucket of popcorn, you know, he likes to talk about how aesthetics come from people dying and, you know, their property goes into a state sale Sales. Exactly. And then the antiques market gets a hold of them. And so it's like, as, you know, people pass away, you know, aesthetics sort of pass down to the retail level. And I think his bet is that the next big aesthetic that's going to rise up is this after the sort of 70s design that inspired RH Contemporary, it's going to be this kind of like 80s and 90s, like classical, traditional, inspired sort of eclecticism is how he described it. And so buying these companies is like buying some of the people who helped develop these ideas in the first place on some level. I was also sort of curious about why these companies wanted to sell. And we always have this conversation when RH buys a company because I guess Michael Taylor Designs, it sort of seemed like the owner had maybe kind of. I suspect it was bought relatively on the cheap. It didn't seem like a totally functional company anymore. You know, formations and Dennison Lean, like, this is a brand that's doing apparently a brisk business of the trade. And, you know, a lot of designers have very complicated feelings about rh. And I always wonder, like, is their trade clientele going to not like the fact that now RH is the owner? I don't know. What's your perspective on that?
- [08:32]
A
I'm always so curious about that, Fred. And you and I have talked in the past about different companies that have entered into partnerships of one kind or another. David Sutherland from Perennials talked about it was so great for business and created much more awareness. We talked about Holland and Share. There was a lot of buzz when whatever partnership was formed there doesn't seem to have affected Brian Dicker and Nolan and Sherry in any negative way, from what I can tell. And I'm amazed at how many people still seem surprised that RH owns Waterworks. Yes, we can confirm that many years ago they did acquire Waterworks. It's true. So I don't know if it really creates a big issue for these companies. What's your sense?
- [09:19]
B
Yeah, that's my perception as well. I think when partnerships or acquisitions first come around, there's some agita in the trade because I think designers, for good reason or not, don't always love rh. And so the idea that one of my favorite vendors is now going to be owned by them is an opportunity to vent about it. But I don't get the sense that Dimitri, for example, is not doing business to the trade just because they're owned by rh. So it might just be a lot of smoke and we'll have to see with these Acquisitions. But I have to say I don't suspect that Formations or Denison Lee is going to lose any, you know, designer customers, at least in the short term because of, because of this new, you know, this change in ownership.
- [09:58]
A
My question is, does this, does this move them any closer to the top of the Luxury Mountain? Fred?
- [10:06]
B
Push them up to the next mile? I don't know. You know, the Luxury Mountain is sort of like a symbol or a metaphor. I don't know if it's really productive.
- [10:16]
A
Shouldn't really be within your grasp, right?
- [10:20]
B
Exactly. I mean, I certainly think that if you want to be a luxury brand, as of course Gary Friedman wants RH to be, acquiring companies that make very high end, very beautiful furniture certainly seems like a step in the right direction. But I don't think Gary would say that this gets them to the top overnight. I think this is a few steps up that mountain, maybe not huge ground gained. But what do you think?
- [10:42]
A
I think for all of whatever Michael Taylor's business might have become, I think both Dennis and Lean and Michael Taylor are big names in our industry and formations. Exactly. And I mean, I think they all have a weight and an import. So I think that's meaningful to RH as well. So it'll be interesting to see what comes of this. And again, it's great that we learned about this and it'll be worth watching. And we'll have to stay tuned on those earnings calls to see how they.
- [11:20]
B
Get that popcorn ready. There's one just around the corner.
- [11:23]
A
Exactly. It's coming soon. Did you talk to him about changing the day so that we could talk about it on the show at the right time? Fred, that would have been great. I'll text him. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about Industry West. The furniture brand appears to be in a state of distress. It shut down its social media channels, customers are complaining on Reddit, and missing orders continue to mount. You looked into this, what did you find, Fred?
- [11:46]
B
Well, I found more or less what you just said. Not to make light of a situation that's probably a little bit stressful for everyone involved, but we started hearing rumors that Industry west, this company, Florida based furniture brand, they sell direct to consumer, they sell to designers as well, was having some problems. And when you start looking at the digital footprint, it sort of becomes clear they're not posting on socials, people are complaining on Reddit. Hold that in your head. Reddit. We're going to come back to that later. And there's this lawsuit from a landlord about one of their logistics facilities. The founder and CEO didn't respond to, or he rather declined to, to comment for the article. But I think if you could kind of put the pieces together, it's clear that they're going through some kind of problems. You know, not sure they'll make it out to the other side. You know, hope they will and hope the customers get their money or their furniture. But definitely more than just a little bump in the road over there.
- [12:42]
A
Yeah. No, no, no. I'm always sad Fred, when a very early guest in this case on the.
- [12:48]
B
Business of Home podcast predated even me.
- [12:51]
A
You have to go way back to before Fred even joined us back in 2018 when we had Jordan England wife on the show and they talked about the early days of trying to find some dining room furniture and it was all too expensive for them at the time. And lo and behold, a D2C company was born. But it seems like whether it's tariffs or some of the other housing related challenges that have been going on for the past few years, something seems to be affecting the company quite a bit.
- [13:24]
B
Yeah. And I mean, what's sort of interesting about this is that a lot of the chatter online about problems they were having having popped up in April of this year. And of course you will remember that April was Liberation Day, the beginning of this. Yes, exactly. Who can forget? But yeah, so, I mean, Industry west of course imported a lot of furniture from Asia, particularly from China. And so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that that could be fatal or severely damaging for a company that's relatively small. It's not a big company, but exactly. Because it's not big, they don't have the cash flow to deal with 145% tariff that gets put in overnight. I'm sure they were having other issues. The complaint from their landlord was from December of last year. It's been a tough time in the home business, as we all know, but there's been a lot of coverage in the media recently about how tariffs haven't made as much of an impact as we thought they were going to have. And I think that's broadly true. But it is having an impact. And I think we're going to see more stories like Industry west of maybe smaller companies that rely on importing a lot, really struggling and to deal with the ups and downs of the past few months.
- [14:29]
A
Well, and I think to your point, if you were already struggling and then suddenly these enormous tariffs were implemented, then that really might have been the last Nail, if you will. I wish them the best, but we'll keep an eye on this one. It doesn't sound too hopeful at the moment, but we'll stay tuned for more. In the meantime, Fred, we're going to move on to talk about an interesting start. Yes.
- [14:53]
B
To help homeowners better visualize their projects, a company called walk your plans. Straightforward name is allowing users to walk through life size projections of their blueprints. Crazy interesting idea. I really like this one. What do you think, Dennis?
- [15:08]
A
That's how I feel, Fred. I like this idea. They're not too far from me in Port Chester. I want to go visit, I want to go walk through someone's walk in closet and experience it in real life. I like this whole idea. Let's tell people exactly what it's all about. Walk your plans.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah. So I got a pitch for this a few months ago and I think the headline of the email was like a cool new way to visualize your project. And I was like, got it. VR goggles. Seen a million of these move along. And so I didn't move on it immediately and then I opened it a few days later. And it is very low tech compared to VR goggles. What the company does is they develop this technology where basically they put a bunch of projectors on the ceiling of a really big room, like a former high school gym or like an airplane hangar or old warehouse, and they project onto the floor at like actual life size the blueprints of a home. So if you want to see, well, okay, how big is, you know, my living room actually going to be, you can look at the little lines on the floor and get a sense of space that feels true to life, that it really is the actual, you know, size of the house as it's going to be built, which is simple but kind of ingenious. I don't know, it's, it's. And it seems to be successful. I mean, they launched the company a couple of years ago and they've already, you know, it's a central company in Ohio. They license the technology out to other, you know, it's not really franchises, but kind of franchise like players. And I think there's already like 16 of them. They want to build like 120 of these in the US over the next few months or the next few years rather. So it appears to be, you know, I don't know, they seem to have hit a hit, struck a nerve.
- [16:44]
A
Well, I mean, you can really understand how helpful this could be to all of the parties involved and It. And it sounded like builders found this to be helpful. And the architects and everyone literally being able to stand in images of this space and then walk around what the real square footage would be just made it so much easier to understand than sitting there with your scale ruler and trying to imagine. Now, wait, an eighth of an inch is how many feet in this drawing? I mean, can't you imagine just how much easier it all becomes? Sorry for Apple Vision Pro. I feel like. I don't know if this seems like a lower tech solution to it, but it certainly seems like a more pleasant, pleasurable one and an experience that everybody can have at the same time. The goggles, you're in your own space and here the entire family can walk through these enormous projected plans and experience the home together. So there's a lot to like about this. As I say, Fred, it's all I can do to stay here working on the show and not run over there to Portchester.
- [17:51]
B
We sound like we're in the tank for this company. I need to sponsor the podcast here.
- [17:54]
A
I just want to see someone's house. House projected like this and experience it.
- [17:58]
B
I mean, yeah, I guess the caveat to all of this is it's expensive. You know, I mean, I think like the one in Los Angeles, which seemed to be sort of decked out in a very designy type of way, I think is $1,500 an hour. I want to say something like that. So it's not cheap, you know, but I do think there's real utility in it. I think even designers and architects will see new things they didn't see before. So I think let's maybe do a live podcast from one of these locations and maybe we can offer a more critical take on a very interesting idea.
- [18:27]
A
I'm. And we'll get some. We'll get some architects and some builders to come along and. And we can talk about the whole thing. I love that idea. Stay tuned for that fun live show. In the meantime, we're going to talk about Reddit. We mentioned it earlier for this week's feature. Fred, you took a deep dive into the design community on Reddit. Once again. What did you find?
- [18:49]
B
I found a lot of very questionable design choices on Reddit, which will come as no shock. I don't know, Reddit is sort of interesting. I like I should explain why I was even interested in looking at it. I think, like, most people probably know vaguely what it is, but Reddit has been a lot more in the news and a lot more top of mind. I Think over the past few years, because, as you know, so much more content on the web is generated by AI or using AI to search, you know, existing sites. And I think that, like, you know, social media has gotten a lot more performative, and now it's all just influencers and algorithmically, you know, generated weird stuff. I think Reddit is one of the last places on the Internet that is sort of reliably human. You know, like, you go there and you're like, okay, this is a little weird, but I am going to actually have a conversation with a person or I'm going to see what people are actually talking about. And I think that its traffic is, you know, through the roof. I think Reddit has 100 million plus visitors every day, which is enormous. It's one of the, you know, top 10 most visited sites online. And it is, you know, it's a big deal. And so I kind of thought, like, the whole world is sort of talking on this platform. What are they saying about interior design? And that was kind of the premise for this piece. And I spent a fun week kind of kicking around some weird corners of Reddit. Do you use it, by the way, Dennis?
- [20:09]
A
Well, you know, so I love to sort of crowdsource and find out what a big community is saying about this or that or if they have an understanding of a brand, and if so, what is it? It's always interesting to read through threads like that. There's a lot of subreddits that are very quirky, collect subreddits that are really interesting. I was having a DM exchange with Michael Diaz Griffith actually, from the dln. I think he was in a taxi cab. So he had lots of time to DM me mdg. And he was saying that he actually thinks it's really interesting, sort of back and forth. There's a lot going on there. He's not totally sure that there's a lot of opportunity for a lot of the designers that we talk with on a daily basis, but it sort of reminded him a little bit of old Twitter before Twitter became sort of overrun and kind of a different thing and then ultimately became X. But it sort of had that feel to it.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah, it's like Twitter, but a lot less vicious. I think people are not all nice on Reddit, but there's more kind of community support, it feels like, on the platform. Yeah, it's interesting. I went into it thinking, like, is there going to be an opportunity for designers to, like, you know, engage with this platform? I kind of think the answer is no, really candidly, and I would agree with Michael on that regard. Like, like, it's, it's, you're not going to get a great client on Reddit necessarily. It's just not the platform for that. I think there's like education to be had there. There's like a, a platform, you know, specifically for professional designers. And the conversation there is very, you know, it's real and in, in the way that Reddit often is. I also think Reddit is kind of like low key, a great place to vet vendors and retail brands because if people are complaining about a company, it's going to pop up on Reddit in some form. Several of my stories have, you know, started with a, a Reddit thread. So, you know, that never hurts to look there if you're having an issue with a brand. But I think it's less of like a professionally useful tool than it is just kind of an interesting place to be. So much of the design content on Reddit is people just, you know, having problems with their homes. And I think that like, I really enjoyed just looking at those for hours on end because it's a reminder that like, you know, in our little rarefied world, Dennis, it's all very aesthetic, it's all about high minded principles. But for most people in their homes, it's just like, where does the sofa go? Where does the coffee table go? And I think that that's like a helpful reminder for people, you know, who are, you know, in this industry.
- [22:40]
A
I agree. It's very humanizing, as you say, to see everyone sort of struggling. It's funny, a doctor I was visiting recently asked me about some fireplace ideas and of course I had very expensive fireplace ideas for him.
- [22:56]
B
It's a reality check. Yeah, right.
- [22:58]
A
I was like, oh, Chesney's in the D and D building. But, but then I quickly sort of hopped on Reddit in the hopes of finding him some lower cost alternatives. And of course there were a million conversations about mantles and fireplaces. And so I was able to give him some other ideas. But I do think it's a reminder that as you say, everybody is struggling to figure out what to do in their space. And I don't know that there's a great opportunity for designers or other ways to, to sort of monetize this, but I do think it's a great reminder of the challenges that so many people are facing. And as you say, 100 million daily users.
- [23:38]
B
It's also just fun. It's funny, there's so many weird little Reddits dedicated to strange little corners of design. There's really popular Reddits that are just about bad design. So if you need a laugh, there's definitely a lot of that. One of the most popular design Reddits is, is male living, which is like over 2 million followers. It's just like guys posting pictures of their rooms, and it's. That one is like simultaneously very earnest and very ironic at the same time. It's. It's such a fun little weird corner of the Internet.
- [24:10]
A
Well, and I mean, and Jake Harrison, who does the hubba hubba substack, actually wrote to me to that very effect, that male living spaces is one of the places you can find Jake, you know, trying to get some insight into what's happening with bachelors who are trying to figure out their space. Another subreddit that I wasn't familiar with, one called DIY Snark, was introduced to me from Mr. Jim Design, and I appreciate that very much. Apparently there's some room to get a little snarky about some things that are happening in the DIY space, and as long as that doesn't get out of hand, I guess I'm okay with that. Fred?
- [24:47]
B
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think if you go looking for Snark on Reddit, you're going to find it, but I also think you'll find kindness, too. It is sincerely a plastic platform where people try to help each other, in certain subreddits at least. So, I don't know, it was just a fun piece. And if nothing else, it's check out male living spaces. Is that what it's called?
- [25:07]
A
Yes, exactly. I think we've talked about it on the show in the past. Some men out there need quite a bit of help with their space. Indeed. Moving on, we've got to talk about some sad news. Designer Bruce Bierman passed away earlier this month at the age of 72. Trained at the Rhode Island School of Design, Bruce went on to found his firm in 1984, building a practice rooted in what he called the psychology of space, creating environments that made clients, in his words, sigh with pleasure. He was inducted into the Interior Design hall of Fame in the year 2000, and over the years, his work appeared in Architectural Digest, El Decor, the New York Times Magazine, and publications across the country, Globe. Bruce was an old friend, and my wife and I enjoyed many a fun dinner date with Bruce and his husband, William Secord. We send Bill our condolences. Everyone who knew Bruce loved him.
- [26:02]
B
Very nice guy. I didn't know him as well as you did, obviously, but interviewed him a few times over the years and he was always willing to hop on the phone and talk to a guy who didn't know what he was talking about. So yes, Bruce will certainly be remembered by all who knew him and a real talent in the industry.
- [26:19]
A
Knowing of a shared love that we both had for Dolce de Leche ice cream, Bruce one time showed up at my parents apartment with a shopping bag full of pints of Dolce de Leche ice cream for my birthday. So I will miss him for that alone. Fred. But he was so admired by his peers and his colleagues and everyone, as I say, who knew him, always enjoyed a laugh with Bruce. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including September's Can't Miss Design events and a look at NKBA's new home at High Point. We'll be back in a minute, but first a quick break. We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Looking to transform your client's space, Try Ernesta's custom size rugs made to fit their unique measurements right down to the very inch. Allow them to sink their feet into the softest wools or live carefree with a durable, easy to clean, family friendly rug. All ready to be delivered in as little as two to four weeks. Learn more about Ernesta's trade program@ernesta.com BOH that's ernesta.com BOH and we're back. I'm joined now by legendary interior designer Charlotte Moss. You didn't know I was gonna hit you with the legendary, did you, Charlotte?
- [27:52]
C
No, I did not.
- [27:53]
A
Well, I could, I could use the El decor grand master description if you'd rather. But I know, I know you're much too humble for all of that.
- [28:02]
C
Well, you know what they say, Dennis, it doesn't matter what you call me, just call me. And I'm grateful for all of those monikers.
- [28:10]
A
Well, there's a lot of things I want to talk about with you, but I know that the breaking news is the opening of the Southern Living idea house that you've been working on for some time. Tell me how that came about and let's tell people a little bit about what it is and what's involved.
- [28:28]
C
It came about, I think it was beginning of last summer, 24. I got a call from Sid Evans, who's the editor in chief of Southern Living, and he was explaining this project and wanted to know if I would be interested. We went back and forth for about a month. In the meantime, I'm commiserating with people and trying to think about how that's going to impact other things I'm doing. And I called Bunny Williams because Bunny had done the idea house in Charlottesville in 2015. So she said, you know, quite honestly, Charlotte, you're going to work hard, you're going to have, you're going to have some fun, but it's a great project.
- [29:09]
A
Okay.
- [29:10]
C
And you know, and I have to say we worked really hard. We had some fun still having it. And yeah, it's been, it's been an incredible thing.
- [29:20]
A
In terms of the hard work, it seems like the interiors, they're. You. Right.
- [29:25]
C
We were it Dennis. It.
- [29:28]
A
You are the designer for the, for the interiors of this house?
- [29:31]
C
Yes. And it's very interesting because you know, I've done done. I think it was 18 show houses up until this point. But this is an entire house, right. The whole thing. And so, you know, how do you wrap your head around doing a whole house when there's no client? Well, we just made one up.
- [29:53]
A
And who is the client in your mind for this lovely house?
- [29:56]
C
Well, you know, this is a, it's a great house because you know, it sits in Keswick Estates in Charlottesville. It's a very private lot. It's a wonderful driveway approach. You know, you got that anticipation through the woods kind of thing. So I think we just decided to make this a couple with two children. A 12 year old daughter who loved pink and 16 year old son who loved Ferraris. And I don't know, I don't know where I came up with these things. I mean, I remember years ago, Dennis, I, I recorded a video interviewing all of the designers at one of the Kips Bay show houses. And I sat down with Mario back to back on one of his little tete a tete chairs I'll never forget. And I said to Mario, Mario, who do you think we do this for? Don't you really think we do it for ourselves? And he goes, oh absolutely, Charlotte. Anyway, the conversation ensued. But I think you have to project yourself into the lives of these people in order to create the story and the narrative that, you know, we do that for clients, but we do it with their input. Here we had create fiction.
- [31:09]
A
Well and to that point of doing it for yourself and discussing that with the great Mario Boata. May you rest in peace. And as you were saying earlier, thinking about this and where all of this falls in terms of everything else that you have going on. What was your motivation for. For wanting to participate?
- [31:33]
C
That is such a good question. Insanity?
- [31:39]
A
I didn't want to say, but yeah.
- [31:42]
C
You know, I've never done anything of this. Of this magnitude where there was no client. It gave my staff an opportunity to see something start to finish in a much shorter period of time than normally building a house for three years. And it also gave us opportunities to work with sponsors and contributors that many we've worked with and many that just, you know, rang our bell and called us on the phone and said, count us in. It's really important, I think, that the people coming to visit, and there will be between 15 and 20,000 people visit Idea houses every year. And we wanted to make sure they all had a great experience. But I wanted it to be personal. I want them to feel all the visitors as if they walked into a house that the family just decided to go have a picnic and they were visiting. Look, we are a business of peeping Toms. Total voyeurs. We are. I mean, look, the success of shelter magazines. We love looking to see, as Diana Vreeland said, you know, how people lived. How people live. And so we wanted our visitors to think about how this fictitious family might have lived. I'll give you one example. So I imagine this 12 year old girl was given some books about Gloria Vanderbilt by her granddaughter, mother, and they were books that Gloria wrote. And Gloria, you know, was famous for her art and her collages, her love of quilts and how she combined all of that. And so this room expresses that grandmother's and Gloria Vanderbilt's influence on this 12 year old. So hence there's this enormous storyboard, collage, bulletin board. There are quilts on the bed. Her lampshade is made out of a quilt. Fragment. Fragment. She's got artwork in progress on her desk. So there are all these sort of notions that look like this young girl has really channeled Gloria and really read those books that her grandmother gave to her. So that was fun. Fun. I mean, that's what it should be. I want everybody to have fun when they're there.
- [34:05]
A
Well, and seeing that you had to do the entire house yourself. How long did you have? What was the time frame? Because I imag. And hopefully for your sake, it's different than Kips Bay or other show houses that you've done.
- [34:20]
C
So I got a call last summer and I started to think and concept and imagine, you know, for months until we in earnest started to make asks. So really we started decorating December 1st.
- [34:37]
A
Okay.
- [34:38]
C
And we installed the second week of May. And I thought it was a miracle because I was there sort of, you know, mother henning the whole project. And they turned that house over to us spotless with two gentlemen to help us facilitate our installation. And it really, it worked so well. I can't say enough good things about the team that they put together to create the house.
- [35:06]
A
Exactly. So it's a new, it's a, it's a brand new house, start to finish.
- [35:10]
C
Dig a hole in the ground and build that baby for however many months.
- [35:15]
A
And the house just opened to the public this past week, August 14th.
- [35:19]
C
Open to the public.
- [35:21]
A
And it's open through when?
- [35:23]
C
Through the 1st of December.
- [35:24]
A
And it sounds like you've also planned this Conversations on Design event that you seem to have invited some big name designer friends of yours to come and join you. Tell me a little bit about, about that.
- [35:37]
C
Well, I'm so looking forward to that because first of all, very selfishly, that gives me two full days with a bunch of girlfriends. So Lisa Fine and Becky Birdwell and John Bassard are going to moderate. But Lisa, Suzanne Tucker, Alexa Hampton, Meg Braff and Jane Scott Hodges, all talking about different things. Alexa and Suzanne are going to speak about legacy and design. Design because of Mark and because of Michael Taylor. Then Lisa Fine and I will talk about the influence of travel on our lives and primarily design. And Jane Scott and Meg will talk about entertaining with John. And that'll be the most hysterical part of the program. And that will end on a high note with lots of laughter. And then of course, everybody's got books, so we'll do a robust book signing so we, we can sell about 240 tickets. We're over 200 now. And all of the money that we make for this event. I am creating a scholarship fund at VCU in interior design. VCU is my alma mater. I didn't major in interior design. I majored in English. But it's just an opportunity that by everyone coming, we can raise the money to do a little give back.
- [36:59]
A
Well, I know that wherever you are, philanthropy is certain to be a part of it. That's always been a big part of your life.
- [37:08]
C
Yeah. You know, I've got something on my bulletin board. To whom much is given, much is required from Luke. And it's on my bulletin board. It's just a reminder that we're very fortunate to have all that we have. And there's so many different ways that we can give back.
- [37:24]
A
Well, that's lovely. And so VCU is getting a nice scholarship from all of this and you get to catch up with some friends. Yeah, right. I mean, it's a win, win. I don't know if you have officially set yourself up in Virginia in terms of your whole operation, but it certainly seems you're spending a fair amount of time there. So tell me how you are thinking about, about that.
- [37:50]
C
Well, I did set up an office last year and have hired a couple people. Still have some working remote and still looking for more. And we have some exciting work down there. And another exciting project I just went to hear about last week in Texas. And also the nature of my business, Dennis, to be quite honest, has never been 100% interior design. Design. You know, I've always felt that our messaging and our voice needs to be expressed in, you know, multitude of ways. You know, one is writing books, one is doing things like conversations on design. And you know, I like to leave some room, some flex space for things like that to take so I can take advantage of either participating or creating. And I think that's what's important in our business is that we are sharing a lot of what we know and who we know with other people.
- [38:52]
A
Well, I appreciate you mentioning that. And I mean, we should say for listeners that one of the things that is also coincidental about this moment in time is that it's roughly the 40 year anniversary of you.
- [39:12]
C
You know, when you start talking.
- [39:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. And we should tell a little bit of the story, Charlotte, just because not everyone might know your background in detail, but.
- [39:25]
C
Well, they weren't even born yet, some of these young designers.
- [39:28]
A
Well, all the more reason that you should tell them a little bit because you touched on the fact that design wasn't what you studied in school and, and we should talk about that. But you did come to New York and worked on Wall street for a time and that set you up for your next venture. So let's get into that a little bit.
- [39:54]
C
First of all, my firm was sold to another firm. And I decided that was a perfect. That was my exit strategy from Wall Street. So I just sort of sat down and wrote a plan because I'd always loved the kind of concept of English decorating shops. They were very democratic. You know, the doors were open to anyone. You could have your curtains done, you could have your house done, or you could just buy some accessories and lampshades. And I just thought that was such a great hospitable way to help people facilitate their decorating. And so I opened up a store and hung out a shingle and that was in Greenwich Village. And very quickly I learned that all of my customers were up to town. So in six months I found another spot and went uptown and. And that was that. And it just exploded. And I feel like in some ways, you know, you just, you get an idea. And when you are entrepreneurial, I think, you know, that entrepreneurial streak just expresses itself, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Look, you have to kiss a lot of toads in the world to make some things work. And I'm willing to experiment. And you know, I think that's part of the fun. I mean, I don't care whether it's an explosive decorating scheme that you've never done before. I think you have to keep curious and keep experimenting. And retail was certainly a great way to do that. But I've done other consulting which has been very, very gratifying.
- [41:31]
A
Take me back. And it's interesting that people are coming to you for counsel in this area because I rarely. Charlotte speak to a designer who doesn't either want to open a retail store of some kind or create a fabric line or some other collection. And I wonder, having had all of the experience that you have had over the years, years, what your broad brush advice is to designers when thinking about all of that. Because your retail operation was quite successful and became very well known and was a destination for so many people. But not everyone is going to and shouldn't expect that level of success. And retail, as you know, is a pretty tough business.
- [42:25]
C
Yeah, it's a tough business. The business marches on, things change and you have to adapt adept. And you've got to be very nimble in that way. I think the most important thing that you could say to designers that want to do these things is they really have to look at their, what I call their book of business and ask themselves quite critically, you have to be very self critical in this process. What, what can I bring to the table that someone else hasn't brought? What can I do to distinguish myself? That's the number one defining principle here is how do you distinguish yourself from the pack? And you know, everybody has an aesthetic. And can my aesthetic be interpreted in fabric or furniture or whatever it is in a way that can be economic for all parties? And that takes a lot of, lot of soul searching and really being honest with yourself. And you know, it's like I have young designers that'll ask me, can I do a book? You know, can I do a book? And how long you been in the business? You know, and, oh, you know, four years. And I'm going probably not ready yet. You know, very few people have such a book of business in four year period. And obviously from start to finish, in four years, years, there's a lot of growth in there. So you need, you need time for that aesthetic to get a grounding in a way that can roll it forward rather than constant experimentation, if you will. And look, we all have to experiment or we're not going to be, we're going to be dead. We have to keep it fresh. But yeah, it's serious. Conversations with self and then understanding the market for and what everyone else is doing. Look at what Alexa is doing for all the companies that she works with or whatever. Have to understand the marketplace and tell me how.
- [44:28]
A
So here you were at the time, you were servicing all sorts of interior designers and you've shared with me that some you liked and thought there were things to learn from and others perhaps not as much, but you were servicing them all nonetheless with a smile. Tell me about the evolution towards how you became then the designer.
- [44:50]
C
Well, you know, I was designing at the same time. You know, when I started my business, I really started at designing and then planning to open the store and I did. The first store was for 10 years and then I closed that and then I opened another one. It was, it was a lot. It was probably two much at the time. After a while it is energy zapping, shall we say. But you know, I love the creative part. But you know, I think, Dennis, that's. It's a cycle of business that you have to be ready for and if you can plan for, things will go off in different directions. They will take different amounts of energy and you have to figure out which 1, 1, where is the money and the capital going and where's the return going to be? And you have to make tough decisions about what stays and what goes. And you know, at that time we weren't doing a lot of online shopping, not the way we are today. You know, when first dibs came on, people just thought, oh my God, we can now shop Paris and London without going. And you know, to some extent, yes, but I think about the ways that our business has become. Our business has become facilitated in so many different ways by the Internet. And then like anything that comes on that's new, we have to figure out how to use it to its best, best advantage because it can eat you alive. You know, I was talking to someone the other day about AI and how that's going to affect our business because, you know, everybody's, you know, scared of what it's what it's doing, and it's already having an incredible impact in some industries. I think just the way the Internet enhanced our ability to do business, I think AI can help us with certain efficiencies, but it will not and cannot replace my ability to sit down across the table from a client and see their excitement, or to see that lost look in their eye and knowing I've got to redirect. There's no substitute for that. No computer program can do that. We are in a people business, and all the things we need, we might be able to get to quicker because of AI, But I still have to sit down across a table from a client and show them the proposals and show them what we found for them and pray for that emotional reaction.
- [47:27]
A
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then to your point, be able to quickly pivot if you don't get that emotional reaction. If you see that it's not getting the response you had hoped for, then quickly step in and shift in some way.
- [47:43]
C
Yes, I remember it was Bobby Metzger, may he rest in peace. I will never forget this, he said, sitting in with a client one time and showing them these schemes. And the client said, oh, I hate that fabric. And he just took it and he tossed it over his shoulder. And he goes, I do too. And you know, that sort of broke that tense moment with humor where a client may have been a little reluctant to tell someone like Bobby Metzger, no, I don't like it. And he broke it with a sense of humor. And that's the human side of our business that cannot be replaced by technology.
- [48:25]
A
Are the young people that work with you, are they keen to use AI in any meaningful ways in the Charlotte Moss operation at the moment?
- [48:35]
C
I think when it comes to research, I just had a long call this morning about some research that I need to have done, and I think that's where it comes in handy. You can get to the answer so much quicker, but you cannot rely on it as if it's the gospel. It is not the gospel. It can help you facilitate it. You can do that research, but then you got to ask questions. I think what it's going to do, Dennis, it's going to make some of the jobs more efficient and in the long run can save money if it's managed correct correctly. The research that can be done, models that can be created, mock up storyboards, everything can be done on AI now, but you still have to sit down with that and say, does this serve the needs of the client? Is this answering what they told us they were after. It's a research tool for now.
- [49:28]
A
Well, so I wonder, Charlotte, I mean, in thinking about so often in a career that is as vast as yours has been, I wonder how you're thinking about the Charlotte Moss legacy and whether you want a firm with your name to carry on in the future.
- [49:48]
C
You know, I don't need that. I don't need it for my ego that my name lives on. I really think that people want to establish their own. Own thing. I mean, I look at how many young designers have worked for me in the long time that I've been doing this that have gone on to have successful businesses. I'd rather hang around and be a mentor to those people than to think about how my name would carry on. And I know a lot of people have different structures in their firm where it makes sense because they have partners. I get all of that. It's just not anything that I feel the need to do. I mean, I am going to be collaborating on a small hotel project with someone that used to work for me.
- [50:39]
A
Really.
- [50:40]
C
And I got the idea from Business of home. Dennis, tell me more. You and I have not had this conversation.
- [50:48]
A
No.
- [50:48]
C
We need to have a drink, Dennis.
- [50:50]
A
We do. We do. Tell us to come down to Virginia.
- [50:53]
C
Yes. This was a conversation that you and Tom Shearer had.
- [50:57]
A
Okay.
- [50:57]
C
When Tom slowed his practice down and he talked about his clients still wanted him, but some of the designers that worked for him had started their own firms, and he's collaborating with them to do the execution. But he still has a presence.
- [51:14]
A
Yes.
- [51:14]
C
And since I've downsized my firm, this was a perfect opportunity to continue to work with people I love, love.
- [51:22]
A
Right.
- [51:22]
C
And do something together. So to me, it's a win win because I get to work with someone that used to work for me that I adore. Okay. And we're going to do this project together. I think this collaboration thing is underplayed.
- [51:38]
A
Yes.
- [51:39]
C
And I think it has legs. And I have another project coming up that I might do that with with another previous employee who. Who has her own firm. And it's really great because our business is about execution. It's all about how you execute. I can sit here and come up with good ideas all day long, Dennis, till the cows come home. But if I can't execute in a way that is satisfying to my client, I'm dead. So this is a way that I can concept. I have a smaller staff and. And this person that I'm collaborating with will share in the income. And, yeah, it's a win win to Me, it's a win win. And the client gets the benefit of that young energy and the older experience.
- [52:28]
A
Right.
- [52:29]
C
So Tom got me thinking about that, and I've been thinking about it ever since that conversation you had with him.
- [52:36]
A
Well, I'm so glad that that resonated with you. And I love. I mean, again, look at you, 40 years in, trying some new things. Let's see where it goes.
- [52:45]
C
Gotta keep doing new things. It's what keeps us. Keeps us fresh, keeps us young.
- [52:49]
A
Absolutely. Well, I love hearing all of this, Charlotte. We certainly do need to have a drink and catch up on all of this, and I look forward to that. But I'm grateful for you making the time and I'm thrilled to hear all that's going on for you.
- [53:03]
C
Thank you, Dennis.
- [53:09]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that.
- [53:15]
B
Might have caught our eye.
- [53:17]
A
Fred, what caught your eye?
- [53:18]
B
Well, a couple things caught my eye this week. I've been noticing that, you know, we talk on the show a lot about how, you know, Silicon Valley is trying to destroy the design industry, or are they or aren't they? And it's all usually said with, you know, kind of. I usually say, I'm sure they don't really care. You know, they don't. Silicon Valley doesn't care about design, you know, whatever. But I've seen a few ads recently that kind of make me second guess that there as I was writing this Reddit article, there was, you know, an ad for ChatGPT on Reddit. And the ad, the premise of the ad was like, use it for design. And it showed like a before and after of, you know, a chatgpt designed room. So I'm thinking, you know, maybe that ad was generated by ChatGPT, but somebody over there knows that it can do this and they're marketing around that. So that's. That definitely caught my eye for sure. And not only that, but Apple has this, you know, these giant billboards all over New York advertising Apple Intelligence. And one of the, you know, proclaimed uses for Apple intelligence is they have a picture of a womb chair and they're like, real or fake? Use Apple Intelligence to find out. I'm not really sure Apple Intelligence can do that, but maybe, maybe, maybe AI can help us fight the dupes. I don't know. It just was interesting to see these big tech companies, you know, with ads kind of around the utility for design.
- [54:33]
A
I was surprised how much ChatGPT design there was on Reddit as I was going through is definitely a tool that people are using and that made me feel even more like, ooh, designers. No.
- [54:47]
B
Well, I think as we've discussed us before, it's, it's can they get the painter to show up on time? But what caught your eye this week, Dennis?
- [54:54]
A
A couple things I mentioned earlier in the show about NKBA having a new home at High Point. And this time, I mean it seems like it's not just, not just a little pop up like they've had at a previous market. This sounds like they're really taking some space and showing some kitchens. So I am looking forward to seeing what this is going to be like. And it sounds like they're really thinking this is going to be a big opportunity for them. So I'm eager to see what we learn in October and maybe have, maybe have the folks from the NKBA come on the show after, after market and tell us a little bit about what they, what they experience, what they learned. But as we've talked about before, I think it's very smart because an awful lot of people come to high points and why not take a space there?
- [55:40]
B
Yeah, interesting. They're making a play of it.
- [55:42]
A
I agree. The other thing that caught my eye, you know, we build the, the end of the show as being the nerdy part of the show. So why not talk about the minutes of the last Fed meeting, Fred? Because they released the meeting notes afterwards. They wait a few days so that we can all calm down after the Fed announcement. And what we learned in the notes is much as we suspected it, most of the board is not keen to lower rates. So everyone is keeps thinking that rates are coming down and everyone has already priced in a September rate cut and maybe that will happen. But the people who are thinking three or four more rate cuts are coming very soon. I don't know. The, the Fed board certainly didn't seem to be leaning in that direction. They seemed quite concerned about. Wait for, for it, Fred. Inflation from tariffs. I don't know why.
- [56:34]
B
Never heard that. Never anyone would think that.
- [56:38]
A
But, so we'll, we'll be talking about this more probably next week because the Fed's away on a, on a fun trip and the Fed chairman's supposed to speak on Friday to give us a little bit of an idea of what he's thinking. So we'll, we'll talk about it in next week's show. But interesting. I say don't get your hopes up, kids too many regulations cuts coming. Alright, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.