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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Why don't more designers embrace the partnership model? Plus: Schoolhouse is sold at auction
00:59:55
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, designer Bella Mancini joins the show to talk about elevating a partner at her firm.
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- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with designer Bella Mancini about elevating a partner at her firm. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including the results of the Food52 bankruptcy auction, why designers are embracing electric kitchens, and how cold weather might heat up the real estate market. To do all that, I'm joined by OF Holmes executive editor Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:37]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:38]
B
I'm doing good. Have we managed to peel you away from the Winter Olympics? Here to discuss the comings and goings of the interior design industry, I am.
- [00:46]
A
Required to watch a lot of figure skating in my house, Fred, so don't tell me anything.
- [00:51]
B
If you know any results, it was in the wedding vows. I'm struggling mightily to come up with an interior design angle on the Winter Olympics. I know there's some designers who are watching because I see it on the gram, but I'm not sure there's a lot of drapery there. I'm not sure how we can tie it in.
- [01:09]
A
Well, I mean, in the beautiful design city of Milan, inspiration is all around. And a reminder that, sadly for me, I will not be going to Milan, but I believe that someone here on the show will be.
- [01:21]
B
I am Salone bound in a matter of a week. So I'll get working on that article about how curling and downhill skiing will influence what shows up at Salone. But in the meantime, let's look back quickly. On Monday episode, an interview with Olivier Tienpong of Elitist, the French textile and wall coverings brand. I apologize for the pronunciation. I am. I do not speak French. Dennis, I rely on you for these things. Good conversation.
- [01:46]
A
Yeah, great conversation. And I'm sure Olivier is used to that, so not a problem. But, but, but. L A Tiss is a brand much admired for its innovative product offering and, and use of materials. And I was also eager to speak to Olivier about both the evolution of the brand, but also the evolution of their presence here in the States. This is a company that is expanding quite a bit, taking a bigger space in the D and D building and opening up in, in Texas in a meaningful way. And they're, they're big in, in Florida as well, so there's a. There's a lot going on. I'm also a big fan of their, of their marketing budget, though. I couldn't get Olivier to tell me.
- [02:29]
B
Fred, I love that you're really trying to grill them. On what's your marketing budget?
- [02:33]
A
What, what percentage of your. Just tell me.
- [02:37]
B
It's considerable because they're, you know, they're renting out houses in the Bahamas, you know, do their photo shoot.
- [02:42]
A
Absolutely. No, no, no. It's again, part of the conversation. I'm, I'm always, I'm always eager for people to invest in, in their marketing efforts. And particularly when you have a product that is as, as elegant and I think as special as elitist, it's wonderful to see that they do invest in, in the marketing. And we also had an interesting conversation about how you think about marketing through your website and your, and your Instagram and all of that. And also investing in showrooms, which not everyone is thinking of, but they certainly are.
- [03:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone needs to feel sad for Eliotisse or any other high end French fabric brand. But you really like the conversation. Really makes you appreciate how like, you know, when the Internet rolled around, it was like, oh, we can reach designers this way and you know, maybe we'll just, we won't have to have showrooms. And it's like, nope, you have to do both and you have to do both, you know, very well and you have to have great photography and you have to have a great showroom. So it's a challenge for companies to be great both IRL and online. And I think Olivier had some interesting thoughts about that and just some fun history of lets. I love how there's so many heritage French fabric brands and of course we love them, but it's cool to have a company that started in the 80s and does all this weird R and D and working with a company that makes ladies undergarments to make a wallpaper. It's truly kind of an interesting company. So it was fun to hear the story directly from Olivier.
- [04:06]
A
I agree. And it's also one of these products that I just believe you have to see in person to appreciate how special it is. So I'm always advocating for people to come to the showroom. Anyway, I hope people enjoy the conversation. We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Morrison Co. Step into a story 164 years in the making. Morris Co. Has collaborated with the Huntington in California to unveil a remarkable new collection featuring 26 brand new wallpaper and fabric designs created from unfinished sketches by William Morris and his contemporaries. Using original incomplete artwork that has been tucked away for more than a century. The Morris Co. Design studio faithfully finished these historic sketches, transforming them into designs crafted for today, but deeply rooted in Morris's creative vision. Discover this brand new chapter in Morris and company's story on wmorrisandco.com this podcast is sponsored by Laloy. Behind every Laloy rug is a web of people woven together. What began as a small family business in Dallas, Texas in 2004 has grown to a family of over 750 employees who help bring their rugs, pillows and wall art to life. Their work is inspired by the quiet conviction that things made well have the power to provide comfort for generations. Learn more@loloirugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and follow laloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok. And we're back. First up, Fred Food 52.
- [06:07]
B
Yes. A month after issuing mass layoffs and filing for bankruptcy, the company has been sold at auction on a cold day in a Delaware law office. It was completed and the story has.
- [06:19]
A
A new chapter, a sad ending to a brand that we've spoken about many times on the show and that we're fans of. And we loved having them on multiple times on the show over the years. So let's talk about what the results of the auction were and all the pieces and parts in all of this, because I know there's a lot.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah. So when Food52 originally filed for bankruptcy, they had what's called a stalking horse bidder, like a company that was, you know, had agreed to purchase the assets for a certain price. And it was this company, America's Test Kitchen, and they had volunteered to pay $6.5 million for the whole kit and caboodle. And, you know, since that filing, I think you and I probably have both been hearing rumors in the industry about this person's going to put in a bid for that. And, you know, I think everyone knew that it wasn't just going to go to America's test kitchen for $6.5 million. Indeed, that that did not exactly happen. Now, America, Seth's Kitchen did get Food52, the flagship brand. They bought it for something like $9.9 million plus some other obligations. But Schoolhouse, which was also owned by Food52, was purchased by Hudson Valley Lighting Group, interestingly, for a very small amount of money for what it is, $2.2 million. And then finally, Dansk the, the Tabletop brand that was also owned by Food52 was purchased by this sort of interesting thing called form portfolios, which we can talk about in a minute. But they paid $250,000 for Dansk. So separate brands that made up Food52. And they went to three different buyers.
- [07:42]
A
And sadly, remarkably low numbers for a company that was once valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
- [07:50]
B
Yes. I mean, I don't want to keep saying, oh, this is sad, because we've said that before, but I think it bears repeating that this company was valued at $300 million not that long ago. They bought Schoolhouse for a reported $48 million. And here they are just a few years later, selling it on the bankruptcy auction block for 2.2 million. Now, it's tough. There's plenty of blame to go around here. Certainly private equity bears the brunt of it. But this is not just, oh, Covid was difficult. This is serious value destruction. And it's really sad to see these companies sold out for so little. I think part of it is because there was this drama late last year of their bank account was swept by their lender. So they had no money in the bank, which basically meant they had to functionally shut down Schoolhouse. And so when you just shut down a company for a month and fire all your employees, it's. It's very difficult to command a winning price for it. I think that went a long way towards why it's going for so little, but, I mean, even Dansk $250,000, we could probably pass around the hat at the B2H office and have bought that ourselves. So these are low numbers, to be sure.
- [08:54]
A
No, they are. And as you say, there are a lot of lessons to be learned. The outgoing CEO you wrote about, the fact that she recently appeared on a podcast talking about there wasn't just one or two things that went wrong, there were hundreds of things that went wrong. And that there was so much to learn. And maybe the company was overly ambitious at one point, imagining that they could compete with William Sonoma and great big brands like that. And maybe people got carried away. There once was such incredible brand loyalty and an interesting product development arm that listened to a lot of the readers and really created products that people wanted. There were so many good things in this company, and this is why it attracted as much money as it did. And you wonder sometimes if all of that money is just never a good thing for a small organization to get. Maybe they just get their hands on too much money, and therefore there's just too much of an expectation to grow and to multiply.
- [09:56]
B
Too much money is a problem I've never had, but I think there's something really true in that and let's maybe pivot to what's going to happen next. So America's test kitchen, which is of course like a culinary media company, it makes all the sense in the world for them to buy food. 52. The schoolhouse situation is kind of interesting because of course this was once a manufacturing operation, but I think it's largely shut down at this point. I don't know exactly what Hudson Valley Lighting Group wants to do with Schoolhouse, but I have to imagine that they probably want to create a license line to sell to the trade. They're of course, a very trade focused company. I guess if you're a designer who likes Schoolhouse's lighting, my guess is that you'll still be able to buy it through Hudson Valley. But my guess would be that they're not intending to, you know, restart the company and rehire all the employees. I think that that seems unlikely, at least at this stage to me. But what do you think?
- [10:44]
A
Yeah, I'm curious whether they want the intellectual property, whether they have some other notions. I think we need to get Hudson Valley Lighting Group on the show and ask them because I would like to hear. I do think there's a lot of opportunity there. Again, Schoolhouse, another much beloved brand. The Schoolhouse had a lot of fans and so I'm sure there would be an interest in something that might be started up again. But it's hard to imagine that it will be what it once was.
- [11:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's just so hard, right? Like if you fire all the employees in December and you go a month without really being functional, it's tough to just turn the engine back on again. And you know, the low dollar value here implies to me that there isn't a grand plan. It's not like there are 10 people coming in trying to restart the company. Interestingly, I saw CSC Generation near the owner of Sur La Tab and the guy who did hostile bid in the furniture industry. So they were kind of in the mix as well too. Although they didn't walk away with Schoolhouse. So, yeah, I mean, I think as you said, we should try and talk to Hudson Valley Lighting. But I guess it's optimistic that at least, as I said, Hudson Valley is a well known name in the trade. They acquired Sonoman recently. They clearly are ambitious and growing through acquisitions. And I'm hopeful that the Schoolhouse bestsellers and beloved hits will still be in the mix, if not for everybody, then at least for the trade. Dansk is kind of a weird situation and we could talk about this for a long time, but I'll try and keep it tight. Forum Portfolio is the company that bought them is this truly intriguing company. They buy the IP of mid century designers, they buy the IP of the eameses of the world and then license it to retail brands. CB2 has produced several collections that they've made through licensing design through foreign Portfolios. And Dansk had some IP that they were licensing through form and there was actually a lawsuit. Form Portfolios had sued Dansk and there was a big legal kerfuffle over this. And then they just walk away with it at the end of this deal for 250 grand. I think at least partially because whoever bought it was going to have to deal with this big lawsuit hanging over their head. It's kind of a weird outcome. But Form Portfolios definitely does seem serious about the brand and they put out a press release saying they intend to revitalize it. So I'm interested to see what happens there.
- [13:00]
A
Yeah, exactly. And this is the end of this chapter and we'll see what the next chapter is to be written for these brands. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about real estate. Between rising stocks and buyer discounts, some recent signs suggest that the frozen housing market might finally be thawing. And to kick this off, we thought, who better than to hear from the legendary real estate broker for Compass, Leonard Steinberg, who has some thoughts perhaps on the thaw coming, who is motivated to.
- [13:34]
B
Go out shopping for a home in this brutal cold. The downside to bad weather is that it stalls markets.
- [13:39]
A
The upside? Those brave enough to weather the elements are buying up some of the best properties right now. And then when the weather improves, it always does, there will be the absolute certainty of buyer buildup and pent up demand, could drive this market nuts.
- [13:57]
B
Because of the accent, I believe him. Yeah. Well, first of all, Leonard stole my trip take because if you recall last week I was saying this horrible snow we have in the northeast that's keeping everybody inside is going to be a boon for designers when everyone gets tired of their sofa and calls their decorator. But Leonard is a far more authoritative voice than me and he thinks the same thing. But what do you think?
- [14:19]
A
Well, clearly the two of you are on the same page and I'm not surprised there, the great thinkers that you both are. But I do think there's a lot to be said for. And again, this could be wildly optimistic, but I do think that this pent up demand theory, not just about the recent snowstorm that we've had, not just in the Northeast, but Many parts of the country there is this notion that because the housing market has been so frozen with something like at least a million less transaction per year happening than in pre Covid days, that perhaps there are as many as 4 million transactions that just, just didn't happen in the last few years that need to eventually happen because people do need to move, people do need to relocate, people do need to downsize and all of that, all of the normal things that cause the housing market to move haven't happened. So maybe we come out of this cold winter that we've all been experiencing throughout the country and maybe there is a thaw. What do you think?
- [15:27]
B
We're looking wherever we can. We've looked at the Fed cutting interest rates. That didn't work. We looked at the presidential election being over. That didn't work. Now we're looking at it gets warmer so housing will kick up. I mean honestly, I love the idea, I love the idea that spring is going to be like the dawning of the Age of Aquarius and we're all going to run out of our homes and redecorate and buy new homes. I don't think it's crazy and I think vibes play a role in the housing market. And maybe when we get out of this horrible winter and there is all this pent up demand, this literally frozen market will heat up. And there's actually before we get into the cautionary notes here, some stocks have moved recently kind of in an optimistic direction. What was it? Home Depot and Lowe's are both up. Is that really a sign though of the housing market sign or is that just people buying a new roof because your current1 has six feet of snow on it? What do you think?
- [16:19]
A
What's interesting is that if you look at the two big market ETFs, the Exchange Traded funds that follow the housing industry, home builders and the home supply companies have been outperforming the market so far this year. So if you thought it was all about, about Nvidia and the big tech companies, well nope, it hasn't been the big tech companies. It's actually been home stocks. So Toll Brothers is up close to 20% on the year already. Home Depot's up more than 10%. Sherwin Williams, the big paint company, up more than 10%. So there's been a lot of action and I think that's the market believing that this move is coming. Even Williams Sonoma stock has been strong so far this year. Again thinking that yes, come the spring, come the summer, people, people are going to be feeling a lot better than they do now and they're going to need to renovate and they're going to need to move. And so these stocks are telling you that the market is just as hopeful as I am. That's really what it says.
- [17:24]
B
But isn't, I mean, haven't we kind of been here before? I mean we probably could have had this conversation in January of 2025 and we probably did, to be honest. Don't go back and listen to the tape. But there was pent up demand then too. And I think the reality is that while the 30 year fixed rate mortgage is still over 6 and doesn't appear to be getting down under 6 at least in the near term future, that no matter how good people feel about warm weather, if they have to double their interest rate, people are still going to stay put if they can. I don't know, what's your thought there?
- [17:55]
A
Well, I think that yet in much the way that there was such a dramatic response emotionally, psychologically to the end of COVID I think many are imagining, are we just going to feel differently in the coming weeks and months going into this spring summer home sale market because people have just been in their homes for so long, they've just been overwhelmed by the cold and the weather and they're just eager to make a change. Yes, this is perhaps wildly optimistic and this is assuming that everyone collectively is feeling the same way. But I think there is something to be said for at least looking to see if this dramatic response to this shows up. It's certainly showing up in the stocks so far. But you're absolutely right. The cold reality is that really little has changed when you look at where mortgage rates are. In fact, if anything, today as we're speaking, mortgage rates are probably going to be a little bit higher because we got some surprisingly strong employment numbers this morning before we started recording. And that's leading the market to think that the likelihood of meaningful rate cuts over the course of the next year has dropped considerably. I think many on Wall street, they are imagining because we're about to have a new Fed chairman come May, that we might see what I refer to as a ceremonial rate cut, perhaps when he first shows up for his new job, that there'll be one rate cut there, but honestly little guarantee that there'll be meaningful rate cuts after that, if that one even happens.
- [19:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of the unfortunate cold water to toss onto this is just that no matter how good people feel, no matter how warm the weather no matter how many great videos Leonard Steinberg makes, they're going to look at that mortgage payment and that's going to mean the most. But again, as we've talked about before, the high end of the market seems to doing well. The uber affluent certainly love spring, as does anyone else. So, so maybe if nothing else that, you know, the top of the market will, will continue to go up in that, you know, up in that K line we always talk about. And a lot of designers will get some work out of this.
- [20:12]
A
Well, that's the hope exactly, that it will be meaningful for designers, whether their focus is helping people to focus on extensive renovations or perhaps getting the house ready to show for sale. And then hopefully again, we need a lot of houses to turn over. And of course, as always, we need a lot of new houses too. So hopefully all that good stuff is coming. We'll see. The stock market seems to think it might this time around, so we'll check in with it again in a few weeks. In the meantime, we're gonna move on and talk about electric kitchens.
- [20:47]
B
My college band, the Electric Kitchens.
- [20:49]
A
It's a good one. It's a good name.
- [20:51]
B
It's a good name for the New York Times last week, Rachel Wharton explored how advances in induction cooking have led high end designers to embrace the category's potential. Have they? Though, to be honest, this story is actually really cool. It's a great story in the Times where, you know, because induction, you know, stovetops can be placed in really thin material. So these like, these great shots of what looks like a kitchen island with no base with the inductions on top, it almost looks like a magic trick, you know, so there are lots of cool things you can do with an induction top because you can put it in a places. You can't put a gas top. But I do think to some degree, probably many designers and their clients still do prefer gas. He said hesitantly, what do you think.
- [21:34]
A
He said because he feels that way himself or. I mean.
- [21:38]
B
Well, we'll get there. We'll get there. Okay.
- [21:40]
A
Okay. Well, I do feel that this piece was trying to put the most positive spin on it. Right. Look at how great these can look. Look at how practical they are. Lots of focus on that. Water can just get boiled so quickly. I mean, there are lots of good things that come and I think the feeling that in many major cities and markets around the country, there's this inevitability of this just being required and so can we convince enough people to learn to love it?
- [22:13]
B
Yeah. And I mean the article Makes a great point that there's a lot more you can do. It's like a flexible design element to some degree, which I think puts a little bit of a positive to spin on something that I think the appliance manufacturers are largely doing because of the regulatory environment. You know, it's. What is it New York and Washington, D.C. and parts of California have outlawed, like, new gas lines and new builds. And so the thought is that, you know, over time, the rest of the country is going to come around to this and, you know, gas stovetops will be a thing of the past. So we have to do this, so let's make the best of it. And, you know, it's interesting, Caroline Burke, our producer here on the show, is going to KBIS next week. She can report on, you know, whether this is, in fact true, whether designers are embracing induction stovetops. But I think they're doing it because of, I would imagine, at least more because of the legal environment than they are, because clients are clamoring for it. But I think making the best of it is certainly a good thing and you could do cool things with it from a design perspective. But this whole story, and we've talked about gas stoves, the rise and fall of the gas stove, the rise again, in the context of how people feel very emotional about it. It's like the, the light bulb, LED light bulb question, you know, it's pry my gas stovetop from my cold Dead Hands is sort of the critic I hear from a lot of designers out there. But what about you, Dennis? What do you think?
- [23:30]
A
Well, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. I think there is this reluctance to it. And I think, listen, a lot of people got through Covid cooking and making a lot more meals at home, and suddenly I think people feel an even greater attachment to their, to their gas stoves. And I get it. And I think they'll tell you the many things that gas can do that the electric can't. And it was funny to even read some of the comments on that New York Times piece where so many people just wrote in and said, oh, yeah, no, I got an induction stove and I hate it. And let me tell you why. They were pretty passionate about it. So, I mean, I hate the thought of this being thrust upon everyone. But I do think that you were talking before we came on the show about the science in all of this, Fred.
- [24:26]
B
Well, I mean, induction stoves are more energy efficient. It's also there's a lot of science that says that a gas stovetop is not good for you. It releases a lot of chemicals into the air and at least there's a lot of science about that. And I believe it. I mean, I have an electric stovetop. It's sort of a newer, fancier one. Fun, but I hate it. I don't like it. I wish I had a gas stovetop. But I think. I don't know. I'm willing to make the sacrifice here. I think it's a little frustrating because for my usage anyway, it doesn't cook quite as well. But if this is good for the people who live in my house and good for the collective, I'll take the hit on cooking my scrambled eggs and use whatever is good for the planet. But I understand the nostalgia people have for it. I certainly share it. But I think we should be be willing to occasionally sacrifice for the greater good here especially, I mean, because some of these induction shops are pretty cool, too. We're not talking about going to the poor house and getting a little Bunsen burner to make your flambe.
- [25:23]
A
No, no. And that's why, I mean, and I'm glad you reminded everyone that Caroline's going to be going to kbis because I'm eager to hear and to see what I imagine is going to be a multitude of introductions in this category. And I think that a lot of these companies have clearly gotten the message and a lot of great new designs are going to be coming out. And I'm sure they're going to be very innovative and they're going to try and offer as much as they possibly can to get people excited about this again, because I think they see the inevitability in all of this. And if there are health benefits or if there are safety issues that they can point to to help ease people into this, I think that's what they will do. But I'm sorry that it's disappointing for you at the moment.
- [26:09]
B
I'll take the hit. I'm gladly sit there frowning at my scrambled eggs. I know I'm doing the right thing for the planet.
- [26:14]
A
Well, I think that's hopefully how more and more people will feel. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about breakup design. Fred for the New York Times, Dena Cheney took a look at how the end of a relationship can be the perfect time for a home makeover.
- [26:32]
B
Controversial article in New York Times here. Yeah, I mean, this was a really interesting read and certainly something that I've encountered many. And you know, writing about interior design is, you know, so many designers will tell A story about, you know, working with a married couple and then they split up, and then the designer has to go with one of them or has to sort of delicately work with both of them. And I think this is a situation that pops up again and again, and one in which the sort of, you know, the therapist hat that designers have to wear gets worn pretty hard during these experiences.
- [27:03]
A
Well, exactly. And every designer will tell you that they certainly a big part of their job is. Is navigating the marital dynamic. And a few designers wrote to me just before we came on air about how sometimes they get stuck in the middle and the couple starts to separate, and they say, well, who gets the designer who gets to work?
- [27:26]
B
Right, exactly. That's a big deal.
- [27:29]
A
That's a big issue. And I think also you hear so often from designers that they have to try and figure out who. Who's really the decision maker here. Is it the husband? Is it the wife? Is it the two husbands, the two wives? What's the dynamic? And it can be challenging.
- [27:45]
B
Yeah, it's a fraught situation. I mean, it is also, candidly, a business opportunity. I mean, I think that when someone is really looking to start over, that leads to work for designers. It's interesting. There was this firm, I think it's called Stripe Street Studio, that started a few years ago, and they were profiled. We might have written about them. I know AD Wrote about them. It was, like, specifically designed to work with divorced dads, which is a very specific business niche. But I think it's like, you know, I think divorced dads often do need help kind of, you know, putting their lives and their homes together, following. Following a split. And so I think this is. This is something that comes up again and again for designers and is. Is very delicate. I also think, you know, one kind of. I don't know, a cool thing about the article is there's so many interesting anecdotes about how people really use their homes as an opportunity to express not only who they are, but where they're going in their life. So many people have these almost cleansing rituals of getting rid of the stuff from the ex. This is how I want to be in the next phase of my life and expressing that through design. And I think we often fall into the trap of talking about, oh, what a pretty room, and how beautifully put together. But reading these stories, you really experience the emotional side of design in a powerful.
- [28:56]
A
I agree. And it's a reminder of just how intimate and how personal and how deep into people's lives designers have to get in order to effectively do their job. So, you know, you have to know what's going on and the dynamic, and it's challenging. And then perhaps you complete the project with the couple and then they separate, and then you end up with one of the people from the couple and. And you have to create a new life for them. Designer Denise McGehee wrote to me that you need to completely redo the bedroom and the living room because, frankly, that's where all the memories live. And I thought that was such a great point. And I'm glad to know that divorced dads have firms specializing in their needs.
- [29:48]
B
Exactly.
- [29:49]
A
That's comforting in a difficult time. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the latest industry hires and Sean Lowe's advice on what to do when a former employee starts poaching your clients. But first, a quick break. This winter, Leloy debuted beautiful new rug and pillow collections that are grounded in rich colors, natural materials, and innovative craft. Their expansive breadth of product includes new must see collaborations with designers Jeremiah Brent Trent and Leanne Ford. See it all@loyrugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and follow laloyrugs on Instagram and Tick Tock for the latest news and collaborations from laloy at the Huntington in California, unfinished artwork by William Morris, J.H. durrell, and other original creatives behind Morrison Co. Have been uncovered. Now. These historic sketches, left incomplete for more than a century, have been carefully finished by the Morrison Company Design studio and transformed into an extraordinary new body of work. It's a brand new chapter in a legacy that spans more than 160 years. Discover the brand new wallpaper and fabric designs within the collection on wmorrisonco.com and now back to the show. And we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer Bella Mancini, who's recently made a big change at her firm, which we're gonna talk about. Bella, welcome.
- [31:39]
C
Hi, Dennis. So good to see you again.
- [31:42]
A
It is great to have you on. A pleasure. I've wanted to speak with you for some time. Finding a reason to have you on the show, Bella. So I'm glad. I'm glad that you made this change at your firm just so that I could have excuse.
- [31:53]
C
I did it for you.
- [31:55]
A
Well, I appreciate that. That is very kind. Before we get into all of that and talk about the name change and the partnership elevation and all of that, let's tell people A little bit about your career and how long you've been in this business.
- [32:11]
C
Sure. Oh, well, at this point it's been. Feels like forever, but in a good way, of course. I started my business 25 years ago and before that I worked for an incredible woman named Ellen Hamilton. I'm sure most of your listeners know Ellen. I am not formally trained as an interior designer. I have a degree in clothing and textiles and I worked in the fashion industry before I made a switch to interior design. And I have been practicing residential interior design in New York City for the last 25 years. And I have a small office, small staff, and small by design. And we do everything from straightforward decorating to ground up construction, new builds and everything in between.
- [32:59]
A
So part of the reason that we wanted to have you on was that you've recently elevated a longtime associate of yours, named her to be a partner. Taryn.
- [33:09]
C
I did.
- [33:10]
A
Taryn Burns. Right. And it's a very exciting time, name change and all of that. But, but take me back to when you first started thinking about this, talking about this, what led to this decision, why, why now all of that.
- [33:26]
C
I made Taryn Burns a partner and she has been with me since 2011. And when she came on, she was a design assistant. She had done a couple of internships in the industry, but not very many. She had a stint at House Beautiful. She worked for another designer and she is a hard worker and she's been with me ever since. So she was a design assistant. She was a designer. And eventually she came to be what we call the studio director. So all these made up titles in this business? No, she was the studio director. Really, truly managing designers and timelines and making sure things were running very smoothly. So a few years ago, I want to say maybe four or five years ago, we talked about it a little bit, like what that might look like. And I think at the time, mainly I don't think she was quite ready. She has small children and I think she was thinking about maybe did she want to leave New York City? Did she have the other things that she wanted to pursue? She's wildly creative and always learning and I think she was questioning what she wanted to do. And then, you know, four or five years go by and here we are still here. And one day I sort of had her captive in the car. We were driving from the Hamptons back to the city and I sort of looked at her and I said, okay, I'm asking you a question as a friend, not as your boss. And she's like, oh boy, And I said, how much longer do you think you want to do this? And she said, well, it's funny you should mention it. I very recently been thinking I might like to have my name on the door. And I just looked at her, I said, let's do it. So that was probably last summer, I think. And then it took about four, five, six months, I guess, in total for us to have everything, kind of all the legalities and things in place. It was a much bigger job than I think she or I ever had knew it would be to do, like the website and all of the. The printed collateral and all of that jazz. Oh, and we also moved offices and did a renovation to an office which took a lot of time and energy. So we did this all over the fall, and we were really. We were ready to announce it in December to our clients.
- [35:43]
A
So when she said that she was keen to have her name on the door, did you, for a moment, did you panic, thinking that that meant she wanted to go out on her own and have her own furniture?
- [35:55]
C
Not really. I mean, if she wanted that, I would have been happy to support that, too. I don't want to hold people in my office any longer than they want to be there. So I would have been very happy to support her in that. But I knew what she meant, and she's essentially been a partner to me. I mean, really, truly we've done. It's something that's always been true internally, but to kind of make this external declaration, if you will. We keep saying we got married, but after all these years. But I really wanted to give her the credit for what she's done and what she's helped to build. We have a strong business. I'm really proud of that. We work on wonderful projects, and she's worked on every single project that I have for the last 15 years. So it's kind of celebrating her hard work as much as mine, certainly.
- [36:48]
A
So this is an issue. Part of why I wanted to talk to you about this is because a lot of firms have struggled with how to keep key staff members engaged. Is a partnership track something worth creating for firms? And then many firms have elevated partners, only to see those partners leave shortly thereafter. We won't name names, but a lot of firms have tried and haven't been successful. It's. It's not always the smoothest path, even though many struggle with wanting to give their team members more.
- [37:29]
C
Well, for us, I'm not worried about that. We have an equity agreement that's in place that eventually I'll be able to step away. She'll continue on with the firm someday. I don't know what that looks like. That's not something that we're are talking about at this moment. But I think, you know, law practices have, have structures like this. Why do we not have more of this in our world? I think, look, I think a lot of designers, I don't know how to say this nicely. I think, I think there can be a lot of ego that drives our business. And I think if you're willing to give up some of that notoriety, then it probably would go a long way for your employees. It is no secret that every project that you see published or on someone's website, there was a team of people behind that, of course, that name on the door, producing that work, and frankly, many times doing much more work than the, than the person whose name is on the door. So I think if we all kind of collectively, as, as a business, if that's something that people care about, you know, like, if you have, if you don't have a lot of turnover and if you don't want to have a lot of turnover, raising people up within the firm is a really good way to keep people too. I do feel like if business owners were to raise up their staff in whatever that way, whatever that means for them. So if that's in a profit sharing model or in a just giving credit to the team that produces the great work, talking about the team when they're on new business, business calls, that's something that's really important to me because I want every prospective client to know that I'm not the only person working on their project and I will not always be the person that they're speaking to. So I always say, like, frankly, you don't want me managing your delivery schedule. Like that would be a really bad thing. But I love to be in every client facing meeting, but it does not mean that I'm doing all the work. So I am very clear about that in the very beginning. And I think if more designers were, they'd perhaps have better retention than I, I. It's what they are rumored to have. You know, like some people are notorious for having a revolving door and there's gotta be a reason for that. Whether it's people are working too hard for too little pay or they're just not being appreciated, I don't know.
- [39:55]
A
Well, I appreciate you saying that. And I think often we're not as candid as we should be in this industry about what some of the challenges challenges are and I think when you do get people to speak frankly about it, and I've had several guests on who say, listen, in our industry, we think about it much too late in our careers. We don't plan for it. We lose a lot of key people along the way. And I think that that's true. And so I think it's great that it sounds like you have created and I want to talk a little bit more about what this means as far as the equity arrangement and all of that. But I think also it sounded like there is a long term component to this as well that were you to eventually one day decide you want to leave. There is some kind of a plan in place for Taran to take over the firm and all of that.
- [40:49]
C
There is. At least there's a structure for a plan to be in place because I don't know what that looks like anyways. But I think so. I like the idea of being an example of a very small business, but one that might kind of change and elevate the way we think about interior design in general. So like not just as a solo practice, not thinking about interior design just as a solo practice, but more of like a professional business with partnership structures, career development, long term planning. Like what we're just saying. We looked at the structure of. And I don't know the structure exactly, but like Bunny Williams is a big kind of shining star for us in terms of, well, lots of things. But, and I believe me, I make no illusion. I'm. We are. I am no Bunny Williams. I'm not. I know, I know that. But, but I, I loved when she rebranded. Like of all the people in the world who probably didn't you to do that, she did. And Elizabeth is obviously a terrific, terrific designer and business person. And it was the most obvious thing. Like, you know, if you were going to have this person do this, it would be her. But when we looked at Bunny Williams, I think it was just like recognizing her leadership, recognizing Elizabeth's leadership. And I wanted to do that. It's a model that it honors the collaboration and it also positions her for the future. So. So the rebrand is just about building a legacy, I suppose, one that extends beyond me.
- [42:23]
A
Well, and I'm glad to hear you say that. And I think that Bunny did set a great example again, one that I wish more people would follow. And I wish we were being flooded with announcements of people being elevated within firms and people's names being put on the door. Because honestly, I think, I think when you talk to people off the Record. There are a lot of people who wish they were getting more of the. To your point, whether it's get the credit or just get the recognition or just get a clear path to where their career is going. And again, I think that's what people want more than anything. Tell me what the future looks like.
- [43:03]
C
I do think, though, Janet, that's why you see so many people starting their own businesses. They go to firms and they work for a few years, and there's really no. They. They reach what they perceive to be a ceiling, and then they just go and they start a business. And frankly, they have no business starting a business. And I do think that that could be why interior designers have such. This new reputation. Like, think how many calls I. And I know that your audience probably has all of these calls too, like these nightmare stories that these poor people tell that hired this person and I never finished the job and left all. And I think that part of that probably has to do with just not everybody should be running a business. And like, that's kind of okay.
- [43:46]
A
Exactly.
- [43:47]
C
And so I think people probably get thumbed out that they're not able to do more or have that recognition. And so they. They leave to start their own thing. And sometimes that's successful, sometimes it isn't.
- [43:59]
A
Well, I mean, I think it's. I think it's a very good point. And I think that we don't talk about. It's another issue we don't talk about enough. And I try and raise this issue when I'm at the New York School of Interior Design talking to students about what their future path might be. Not everyone needs to start their own firm. And in fact, I try to encourage as many people as will, listen, go and work for another firm for as long as you can and learn all you can and see if that's the path for you. Because not everyone wants to be responsible for every little thing. And you yourself didn't necessarily think that you wanted to have your own firm when you were first starting out?
- [44:40]
C
Well, I certainly didn't. I mean, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I do think that for me personally, starting a business was. I am a daughter of an entrepreneur, danced six days a week when I was growing up. I started a business when I was 27. I didn't know what I was doing at all. But while I was starting it, it, you know, I worked at an antique store on the weekend to make. It ends me to make my very low rent. I do think that it was maybe an Easier time then than it is now. I think that New York City is really expensive and I don't think there are that many, you know, kids showing up from bright eyed from California and getting rent controlled apartments in the East Village like I did. You know, it's, I just don't know that that's happening anymore. So I think it's a little bit harder to imagine just like starting a business now. But I, I think working under somebody and if you do think you want to have your own business, really learning about the business, like there's a million great designers out there, but the business part of it is 90% of it really. I mean it, it just is the fact of the matter. If you want to be successful, you got to know what you're doing.
- [45:50]
A
Coming back to the, to the partnership. Often a partner is asked to make a certain investment in the firm. When they get made a partner, they put up equity. I mean, was that part of the conversation or consideration for you?
- [46:06]
C
It was part of the consideration. In the end I decided not to do that and I decided to gift Taryn equity because she has been with me so long and I just feel like, like she has earned that equity over the many years that she's been such a loyal and dedicated employee. I guess I call her but partner. And so for me that was not a model that I, I just didn't feel good about it. And so I gifted her a percentage and she will earn, continue to earn a percentage every year for five years and until we're nearly equal role. And then at that point I will be an old woman. No, no, I really am not retiring anytime soon. But it just allows for her to kind of like grow in this role. Like believe me, she, she's taking on stuff now. Like she, it's cracking me up and I like, I love it. Like I'm getting text messages on Saturday. I'm like someone else is thinking about this as much as I, I always have, you know, so it's been interesting. But that was a model that worked really well for us and we worked with a law lawyer who worked with our lawyer to figure out all the finances and things which are changing for both of us for right now. And there's a lot more eyeballs on the finances now, which is great thing all around. But yeah, the equity piece of it, I think that's probably something that was hard for people to get around. Like for me it just, it really, it made sense for me.
- [47:41]
A
I know from talking to others that, that often that letting go of the actual equity ownership and even if it's a five year plan and all of that, that has often been one of the hardest parts. People have shared with me that it's all very nice to put the person's name up on the door, but as you say when you're sitting down with your attorney and your accountant and saying, oh wait, so tomorrow I won't own 100% of this company, I'll own some lesser amount that has tripped a lot of people up. And so it's not a small consideration.
- [48:11]
C
It's not. But I mean from, for me at least I've, I have been this sole owner for a long, long time and I like being able to share that, the responsibility of future growth and like I said, having somebody think about it as much as I am and that's not, you know, I, I don't know, I would think that people have a harder time with the main piece of it, which has been complicated in our office because we were Bella Mancini Design, which we call bmd and we did for many, many years and now we're mbd, which is just then really funny.
- [48:47]
A
To get used to but people are struggling with.
- [48:49]
C
Sure, yeah, yeah, no, I don't, I don't know. Oh, and there's lots of hard things about this like getting the Instagram and all the things. Meta wants to make this as hard as possible for us. So.
- [49:02]
A
And it, and it sounds like you were suggesting earlier with and texting you on a Saturday that it perhaps given her a renewed energy and focus.
- [49:12]
C
Well, of course it has. I think that that's what I wish other business owners would think about of. You know, it's nice to have somebody else worrying about the same things you worry about. Keep you up at night and not just share in the design with somebody, but to also share in the really hard stuff like a difficult client, client interaction or you know, she's helping me. She's always sort of helped me with this. So we have to get contract out and you know, being a sole proprietor, people always want to talk to you. That is people always want to talk to you. And we still have some like really long time legacy clients who I think that they still prefer if I'm, I'm there. But for anyone new, it's so nice to know that Karen can be there just as much as I am. She can and be the kind of face of the project and the meeting and I want to. We're always going to be doing things together but I don't have to feel like I need to be in every single meeting. And I think business owners, if they can give up that kind of control, I think they should think about how wonderful that might be for them and focus on the things that they really like, which is, for me, I feel like I'm going to get to actually do a lot more design work now because I have somebody sharing the burden of some of the administrative and more business things.
- [50:32]
A
I know that. That in the past, you've worked with. With our own Sean Lowe.
- [50:37]
C
Of course I have.
- [50:38]
A
And. And that he helped you change how you looked and thought about your finances. Right.
- [50:44]
C
In a great many ways, he's been an incredible. He's probably spoken about in our office more than.
- [50:50]
A
He's. He's changed your life.
- [50:51]
C
He has. He has changed our life. He really has. He's changed. He really. He very much transformed our business. Yeah, we worked with him, and he was very excited about all this.
- [51:02]
A
Well, I wondered. So, I mean, I assume that he's in full support of this move.
- [51:06]
C
He is. He is. He's a big fan of Terrence, so. Yeah. And I think mine. But he's very much a huge fan of Taryn.
- [51:16]
A
Well, I mean, I think. I mean, to give credit, I mean, I think anyone who spent any time with Taryn is a big fan of. Of Terrence. So I think that goes without saying. And I think it. Honestly, I think it reflects well on you, because I think when people. I mean, and many people will probably be meeting her now in ways that they perhaps hadn't before, and when they meet this impressive partner, they go, wow, Bella, she's got an even more impressive firm than I realize with the people that you have. So I think there's a lot to be said for that. And I think also. And obviously we're joking, you're not going anywhere. This isn't like some immediate succession plan, but again, creates the opportunity to have that conversation down the. Down the road.
- [51:59]
C
It does. Because. Okay, let's. Let's even just say it's like, you know, 10, 15 years from now. It made me really sad. Like, this idea that. Like, what, one day am I just going to close my business down? Is that how this works when you are a small interior design firm? That, to me, sounded so depressing. So that is certainly not the reason that. That we're doing this. But I love the idea that she'll carry this forward and I don't know, maybe there'll be new partners. Maybe, you know, she'll decide to. To continue adding and growing, and maybe she'll have the time and energy to, to make it bigger and if that's what she chooses to do down the road. But, and I'll just, you know, I don't know, send postcards from, from Italy.
- [52:45]
A
I think the point that you're making though is an important one because again, another issue that is so frustrating to many is why don't more firms in our industry carry on? And the reason they don't carry on is because the principals don't think enough about succession, long term planning, elevating key people within the organization. I want more firms in our industry to last. It makes me sad that Parrish Hadley went, went away. It makes me sad that there are so few firms that have, that have made it through the test of time.
- [53:20]
C
I mean, listen, maybe there should be some sort of advisory in helping people navigate this or do this and elevating the next generation. I would be happy to talk anyone through how we have done it and how we are continuing to do it and how we see it. And you know, it is a lot to navigate. But I really, I very much care about my business and I know other people do too. But I'm not, you know, this isn't a hobby, so I'm not, this isn't something that I'm just going to shut down one day and be okay with. So.
- [53:53]
A
No. And I think that's so important. And I wonder, Bella, as we wrap up, what advice you would give to people who are on the fence about this or who are looking around the office thinking, thinking, gee, this person might leave, that person might not stay for much longer. How do I think about this and how do I think about retaining key people? What would you say to them?
- [54:19]
C
I think that people need to be as generous as they can be with both their financials and also with their time and allowing people to shine. When you give little pieces away, it doesn't feel so scary if you're trying to bring somebody in as a partner, and I've long done that with my staff. So this doesn't feel like such a huge departure except in name and then of course, all the, all the legal stuff. But you're not going to want to start from having somebody on just a straightforward salary and their name is nowhere near the door and you don't let them speak in meetings and they don't take client meetings on their own to being a partner. So I would say roll it out very slowly. You know, you, you give a little bit and see how they do. Let them show you how they can Shine and trust your instincts. I don't think that having someone buy in is a bad thing. And in fact, not to out myself as not listening to Sean, but I think that Sean thinks that is a really smart way. And I. I very much his point of having somebody buy in, because then they take it much more seriously. I think in the end, I didn't think that that was right for me, but I do understand where he's coming from, and I can see his point, certainly. So I think that's a great model for somebody who might not have the history with someone the way I have with Taryn, but just, you know, making somebody feel like they're really important team is so important. I don't know why designers want to hold so much of the credit for everything. I think that's kind of where you just get stuck. You know, their own egos get in the way.
- [56:08]
A
Well, I think that's very true. And so I think this conversation gives people a lot to think about. And I love that right up until the end, you were taking Sean Lowe's advice. Except this one.
- [56:21]
C
I know. And you know what? Here's the thing, Dennis. He doesn't even know that yet.
- [56:25]
A
Oh, is that right?
- [56:26]
C
No, he doesn't know that. Well, he doesn't know that.
- [56:29]
A
We'll. We'll see if that makes it into the final edit. We'll see.
- [56:32]
C
I don't know.
- [56:33]
A
Sean might have to find out on the podcast that his last little bit of advice. Ah, sorry, Sean. But again, she followed all your other advice.
- [56:42]
C
I love everything I still do, I still do in my ear. Bella, you do not get out of bed for less than.
- [56:49]
B
That's right.
- [56:50]
C
I like I'm a supermodel.
- [56:52]
A
Well, I know that a lot changed internally for you, but he also made you think very differently about yourself, and so I think that's great. I'm very excited about this. Mancini Burns.
- [57:06]
C
It's Mancini Burns. Mancini Burns.
- [57:08]
A
Mancini Burns. It rolls right off of the tongue. And Taran. Couldn't be happier for you, Bella. Couldn't be happier for you.
- [57:17]
C
Thank you, Dennis. You've always been such a big supporter of ours. Love you and appreciate you.
- [57:22]
A
And I'm. And I'm so grateful to you for making the time to talk to me about it.
- [57:26]
C
Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [57:32]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye.
- [57:40]
B
Well, Dennis, I wanted to cover this in the red regular run of show.
- [57:43]
A
Here we go.
- [57:44]
B
There was, there wasn't an appetite for it. Maybe we'll circle back next week and get more in depth into it. But there was a incredible work of investigative journalism by the Atlanta Journal Constitution and PBS Frontline. It was a sort of collaborative journalistic endeavor to look at, you know, the big, the big carpet industry in Dalton, Georgia, and their use of these PFAS chemicals, these forever chemicals in their productions. And I, I don't want to recap it because it's a 12,000 word article, puts my long articles to shame. But it's an incredibly in depth look at how difficult it is to get rid of these chemicals, how they're still in the water of the, you know, this area. And it's certainly worth a read and it's a sobering read and hopefully we'll, we'll talk about it next week. But in the meantime, if you're ever interested in that side of the industry, it's a must read. Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [58:31]
A
I'm excited because I'm going to see the the Zach and Fox showroom has had a little bit of a redo as part of launching Zach's latest collection. He's partnered with and listeners might remember me telling the story of meeting the team from the PRB collection at the last High Point Market where, yes, they lured me into their car and drove me to their home so that I could see kidnapping, so that I could see all the beautiful furniture in their collection collection. And it's really quite extraordinary. And they've brought some of that collection to New York and they've outfitted Zach's amazing showroom with with some of their furniture. And so it seems like a wonderful collaboration. And they're going to be there for a bit. And I think designers should run and see it because they've got some really fun stuff to see and it's always great to see Zach's new collection as well. So I'm certainly looking forward to it and I hope that I will bump into a lot of people when I'm there. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.