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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Why Jill Cohen made a design book you can't buy. Plus: Inside the AD100
01:02:19
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Luxe editor in chief Jill Cohen joins the show to talk about her ultra-exclusive new design book project.
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- [00:07]
A
This is business of home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on I'll be speaking with Jill Cohen about her ultra exclusive new design book. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including the latest earnings from our house and first dibs, a deep dive into the AD100 and whether or not good taste can be taught to do all that. I'm joined by business of Holmes executive editor, Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.
- [00:37]
A
How you doing?
- [00:38]
B
I'm doing good. I understand you killed at the nice hit gala last night. Tell us.
- [00:42]
A
Brought the house down, Fred.
- [00:46]
B
That truly must be your happy place. Up with all the fancy designers, maybe sipping a cocktail, riffing a little.
- [00:52]
A
It's, you know, it's such a star studded room. Bunny Williams is in the house. Jamie Drake. Last night we were celebrating Ken Folk and Bill Sof and so it's an electrifying room. But we're also raising a ton of money for scholarships. We raised well over $700,000 last night for the NICEID scholarship funds. So that's what makes it honestly for me, really exciting. So it was a high charged evening.
- [01:23]
B
It's almost enough to buy Jill Cohen's new design book. You teased it. It's this ultra exclusive new book that you can only get if you fly private. So stick around to hear Dennis conversation with J. That it's bound to be fascinating. But quickly, let's look back on Monday's episode, A conversation with Keith Granite. How to quickly describe Keith Granite? He does so much, so many plates spinning at once. What'd you make of the talk?
- [01:48]
A
It was great to catch up with Keith, who I've known for a long time, early on in the development of Leaders of Design and many of the other things that he went on to do. Keith has been a longtime advisor to many of the AD100 designers. Going to be talking about the AD100 later. He's been a close counsel to many of them and wrote the definitive book on how to run the designer. Exactly. So I mean, a lot to be learned from his experiences. And now he has his hands in any number of different businesses that are involved with the industry. What did you make of it, Fred?
- [02:27]
B
I know it's hard to keep track. He's kind of like the Zelig like character keeps popping up in different places. Yeah. The new newest one is this AI symposium he's going to do a couple months or a month and I'm really excited about that. It seems like there are going to be a lot of interesting takeaways. He talked about AI a little bit. We sort of talk in vague terms a lot of times about what AI is going to do or not do. He brought up a really interesting point, which is that in a world where an AI agent can do a lot for you, how do you charge hourly? Because if you're just dispatching a robot to go do all your procurement, what do you put on the invoice? I'm sure we'll have a little bit of time to figure that out collectively as an industry. But it was a good question and there's a lot, a lot of those kinds of questions in the conversation.
- [03:10]
A
Well, in part because he's thinking of his next book and what design firms will look like 10 years from now and what will the fee structure look like. This whole notion of value based, I think, is a discussion we're going to be having quite a bit. And I think you're right. I think a lot of things are going to change in terms of how designers spend their time, and it's going to be fascinating to see how the entire industry and the planet adjusts to all of this.
- [03:37]
B
All right, so stay tuned.
- [03:39]
A
Yeah, we're all, we're all trying to figure it out, right? I mean, everyone. In the meantime, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art collections. Grounded in ethical production, innovative craft and meticulous design, Laloy is known for its strategic planning and the past year has been no exception with their focus on expanding inventory and strengthening manufacturing partnerships abroad. As a family run company built for the long haul, Lalloy continues to invest in product innovation, operational scale, and the employees who serve its retail and design partners every day. To connect with a dedicated Laloy sales representative, visit laloiregs.com that's Loloi rugs.com this podcast is sponsored by Newport Brass. Since 1989, Newport Brass has been handcrafting solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures in California. Combining timeless design with exceptional quality. With complete collections spanning traditional to modern and 22 finish options across every product, Newport Brass gives designers and homeowners unmatched creative freedom to make a space that's uniquely theirs. Each piece is built to feel substantial in the hand and look beautiful in the home. Designed for today and made to last for generations. Visit newportbrass.com to explore their full portfolio and to discover craftsmanship that stands the test of time. And we're back. First up, we're going to give an update on some stories that we've been talking about recently. Fred?
- [05:36]
B
Yeah, just a few quick hits here. So last week mortgage rates dipped below 6% for the first time since 2022. Did they stay there, Dennis? Are we living in a 5% mortgage world?
- [05:48]
A
Did we miss our opportunity to celebrate that moment, that brief fleeting moment that only lasted but a few hours?
- [05:56]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, we've been talking for a long time about how there will be this big psychological change that happens once you 30 year fixed rate mortgage goes from 6.2 to 5.9. Even if it's not a big numerical change, people will feel better about it. And that milestone did pass for six or seven minutes, I guess, or something. It happened very briefly and unfortunately we're back up above 6. I don't know if you feel like this has a signal one way or the other for the housing market. What do you think?
- [06:21]
A
We keep trying to be positive about all of this and we keep acting as though somehow if this rate to your point, gets below 6%, suddenly there will just be home sales galore, the economy will thrive and everyone will be back to where we were a few years ago. But I just don't think that that's what's coming. That said, it looked as if rates were headed lower, obviously between the tariff uncertainty and unfortunately the situation in Iran, nervousness has returned in a big way to the market and so rates went in a different direction for a time. If everything stabilizes, it's not unlikely that rates could return to that below 6%. But let's see if it' if it's a party when we get there, Fred.
- [07:08]
B
All right, well, we'll hope for that. Don't turn off the podcast. We are gonna quickly update people on tariffs. Not a long conversation, but two weeks after the Supreme Court's ruling struck down Trump's global duties, hundreds of companies are now seeking refunds, including many, many home brands. I think we talked about this a few months ago, that McGee and company, for example, had preemptively sued for a tariff refund. And at the time they were among the few companies in our industry that had done this. Now that the Supreme Court has ruled that the tariffs are illegal, it a flood. A lot of people are suing for refunds.
- [07:40]
A
Yeah. And it's something that I think a lot of people were self conscious about and should we and do we risk alienating some group. But I think everyone feels as though they need to get their name out there as someone who is staking a claim if in fact these tariffs are ever to be refunded.
- [07:57]
B
Yeah. And I think it seems clear that there's not going to be like a government website where you click and get a Venmo from from the administration. I think it's very clear you will have to sue and people have gotten the memo and the taboo of I don't want to sue. The president seems to be gone. Ashley Furniture has filed a lawsuit. Jaipur Living has filed a lawsuit. City Furniture, the company that owns Scandinavian designs. So many homeworld companies are doing this. My big question is are designers going to do this? Is there going to be a class action lawsuit? Maybe that's a story for the future, but certainly that is moving at the moment. And also we talked about last week whether there's going to be a 10 or 15% global tariff. Right now it's still 10, but the Treasury Secretary says it's going to be 15 soon. So, you know, we'll, we'll see what happens next week where, where we are in, in, in tariff world as the
- [08:46]
A
world turns with tariffs. Yes, we look forward to more discussion about that, as do our listeners, no doubt. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about earnings. First Dibs and our House reported their quarterly results in recent weeks with a generally positive showing for both brands. Though I think you're going to be more positive than me in all of so we'll see.
- [09:07]
B
I'm honestly scared for this item because we discussed it before the podcast and Dennis worked up a powerful head of steam about first dibs is gross profit margins. Let's start with first Dibs. So this was I think a positive quarter for them. They're still not making cash money, but they were adjusted EBITDA positive by a very small margin this quarter, which is a big development for the company because they've been losing money left and right for the past couple years and so clearly that number is moving in the right direction. There were lots of interesting initiatives brought up on the call by the CEO David Rosenblatt. The stock has been up from the doldrums of a couple bucks a share. Now it's up to five and change. Certainly not happy days are here. But I interpreted this as a good quarter for first dibs. But based on the tenor of our pre podcast conversation, you feel otherwise, let them have it, Dennis.
- [10:02]
A
Listen, I went back and looked at all of the coverage that not only that business of home has done. We wrote an article back in 2011 when first dibs was first receiving a major investment from Benchmark Capital. And David Rosenblatt, to your point, was being brought in. And over the course of those nearly 15 years, about $350 million or so in investment has been poured into this company. The company came public and at one point was valued at well over a billion dollars. And today we're looking at a company that has about 95 million in cash, roughly, and is valued at, frankly, just a little bit more than that. And so for all of these years, for all of this money that's been poured into the engineers and the way that they've recreated the business and made E Commerce possible, what positive thing has come from all of that in all of those years? So hundreds of millions of dollars later, we're celebrating that we still not actually making money, but we're almost there. We're EBITDA positive. That's the big thing we're going to celebrate after all these years. I don't know. That's just why I'm a little skeptical about this whole thing.
- [11:19]
B
I'm already sensing first dibs as PR person reaching for the. Reaching for their phone.
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A
I'm in so much trouble. I'm in so much trouble with first dibs.
- [11:27]
B
I mean, to some degree, I understand what you're saying. I almost blame more financial engineering more than I do anything to do with first dibs. I mean, I think.
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A
And that's the problem for me, Fred. I thought this was an amazing business. And I knew this business very early on when Michael Bruno brought the Paris flea market over and you had a special code. And if you were an insider, here's the way you can log on and look at what's available at the Paris Flea market. This was an incredible idea. And again, to your point about big money comes in and I get it. Big money comes in and says, oh, this is a great idea. Thanks so much. We're going to take this and we're just going to actually sort of kill what the original idea was, but turn it into a completely different thing, and it's going to be so much better. All I hear from designers, all I hear from vendors is it's too expensive. All my clients, including myself, the designers say to me, want to go around it. They don't want to transact on the site. It just frustrates me because I do think it's such a great idea. I still conceptually think it could be such a great company, but it's just gotten in its own way, I feel.
- [12:35]
B
Well, let's talk about some of the things that they want to do. David Rosenbaum, the CEO, is an Internet guy, he's a digital guy, super smart guy. And a lot of what they're talking about are making changes to sort of the way that the quote, unquote, the product works, like the technology that underpins First Dibs works. And a lot of the things they make sense to me. I think it's always a pain point to talk about. You see an object, you think, okay, it's $8,000, then you see the shipping is like $7,000. And that's kind of a hassle. They're talking about using technology, trying to make it sort of a more clear all in process where you see the price all in from the start. They're talking about having search that's a little bit more natural. Like you don't have to search for nighttime 1957 Eames Ottoman Lounge. You can just search for what's that cool mid century chair, which I think they want to bring in sort of more average design fans as opposed to the hyper obsessives. All that makes sense to me. I think these are solid product developments. I think they're kind of moving in the right direction. There was one thing that caught my attention because as you mentioned, one of the things that happens on First Dibs is that because dealers have to deal with a commission that they pay to the platform when they sell, sometimes they inflate their prices on First Dibs and then sell for a lower rate on their own site. And it's very difficult for First Dibs to keep track of it because it's just so much information. And I think David mentioned on the call that they're going to unveil like an AI price parity tool, which struck me as like we're going to send out a robot out there and just find out what you're all charging for your stuff. And I'm sure that's going to be an interesting point of contention going forward.
- [14:03]
A
Well, exactly. And here's yet another item that makes me think, think, wait to your point, wait till the dealers find out about this and how happy are they going to be? And I think, unfortunately, First Dibs has a long history of doing things that just seems to irk the dealer community. And so it frustrates me, and forgive me, because I do think there's a lot there and AI. Listen, we talk all the time about how companies are going to really implement AI in a meaningful way. I think FirstDibs has an opportunity to do that. I think making Search Easier for people. And making it much more intuitive actually could have a dramatic impact. So I think there is a lot to be said there. But I think that often these changes seem to rub the wrong way with a lot of their dealers who are so essential to making the whole model work.
- [14:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think, as always, the question is, do you not like first dibs or do you not like the Internet more broadly? And it's tough to know where the line is because the dynamics of shopping online just change so much. But anyway, we're far into the weeds on first dib. Let's move on to our house, which actually had a more straightforward call that, you know, another, in my eyes, a positive earnings quarter. They look back on this year where they had record revenue of 1 point something billion, the most money they've ever made in a single year. Seemed to be a pretty good quarter for our house. Although Wall street didn't. Didn't seem to react.
- [15:24]
A
That Wall street never reacts positively to a company coming out and saying, oh, yeah, we had some issues with our inventory. Turns out maybe there were some things we didn't realize we had or some things we had to mark down more ag. So I think that was unsettling for Wall street. The fact that the company is paying out a special dividend in a time where we talk just about on every show how challenging this market is for the industry with everything going on, with all the new stores that they say they want to open. It's a little bit curious that they can't find something better to do with that money than pay out a special dividend. But I think they're eager to show in comparison to rh, who's carrying a heavy debt burden. They're eager to come out and say, a, we don't have any debt, B, we've got hundreds of millions in cash, and in fact, we're sitting on so much money that we can actually afford to pay out. Look at us. But meanwhile, I think that Wall street isn't feeling it.
- [16:26]
B
It's always just hard to know because you look at what a company's doing, it seems like it makes total sense. And then. And the stock just has these crazy wild swings and you're like, are they reacting to the price of oil? Are they reacting to what was said on the call? Are they reacting to AI? It's hard to know. But nothing in this call struck me as either a warning light for our house or anything in particular beyond steady incremental progress, which has very much been the story of the company. For the past few years, it's not
- [16:52]
A
hard for me to imagine, if they can figure things out, that there is a huge opportunity for them. And obviously upholstery is a huge part of their business, and they make a lot of it here in the States. If they can figure out how to attract more trade customers. I've had many a conversation with designers about their trade program, and they don't love it. So there's room for opportunity there. And so let's see if they can crack that code then. I think this share price currently is going to look very low in retrospect. But we've got to move on, Fred, because at long last, we're going to get to talk about your 8100 piece. That's right. Fred wrote a deep dive into AD's annual list of the industry's top talents. And the question is, Fred, what did you find?
- [17:38]
B
What did I not find, I think is the question. I often joke about how I write these long articles. This one's long. This is 3,000 words plus.
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A
But it's such a good read, it's worth it.
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B
Oh, thank you, Dennis. Thank you. So, a little context here. So I used to work at another publication, and it was actually part of my job to keep a spreadsheet of who was on the 8100 every year. It was an annual task. And I had this spreadsheet that I kept when I came over to Business home. I kind of just kept doing it because it's interesting to know who's on and who's off. And then finally just sort of sat down and go, like, I have all this data. I should do something with it and really do a very, very deep dive. And here we are, 3,300 words later with quite an exhaustive look at the history, the past, present, future of the
- [18:22]
A
8100, which is so fascinating to me and I think to many in the industry. How do we get into some of the history of how the AD list even came to be and when and what it was all about?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think that it was interesting to me, too, because I didn't know the full history until I started writing this article. But, you know, I think I had imagined it's like, oh, it's 100 years old. And it, you know, in 1920, they started it, but it's actually, it's relatively modern. You know, the first time they did it was in 1990, you know, and it was a product of this legendary editor, Paige Rents, who really, you know, took Architectural Digest from like, being sort of a trade journal type publication into being this very, very glamorous magazine that we all know today. But she'd been at the magazine for 15 years or so before she even did the 8100. So this was not the first thing she did when she walked in the door. And the first one is fast. Have you seen it, Dennis? Have you seen the first 8100 issue? It's totally different than it is now.
- [19:15]
A
Exactly. It's totally different. And we should explain just how different it is in terms of what it used to contain.
- [19:20]
B
Yeah. Because I think people now think of it as just being kind of like a list of names with a couple photos and some biographies. But the very first one was like, long interviews with each designer, and it was almost. It was like a job interview. Like, how many people do you have in your office? And how do you charge? What's your markup on fabric? Like, it really. Like, it really got into the weeds. And we think of the 90s as being like, this really buttoned up time where designers wouldn't even say the word money, you know, but like this. The first list has all this information. And it's also interesting, too, because it wasn't every year. It was very erratic in the early years, every four years, and every two, every three years, it was Paige Rentz, kind of. Someone told me she sort of did what she wanted, and the list sort of reflects that well.
- [19:58]
A
And I think it was very much a list of, hey, listen, these are my people. Anyone who knows anything about Paige Rents knows that she was very territorial about the people that got published on the pages of Architectural Digest. And Thomas Pheasant told us the story of meeting her, and her saying, I require loyalty, and him very much understanding that that meant if I want to be in your good graces, that I will not publish my projects in other books. And so I think the early list was, as much as anything, a declaration of, okay, these are the people that I am saying are off limits to
- [20:35]
B
all these other publications claiming her territory. Yeah, I think that's true. And several people told me the same thing, like, the loyalty pledge was real. I also think, though, what was kind of brilliant about it, though, beyond just simply being like, here are my people, was, you know, you think about in the 90s, like, you know, there wasn't as much coverage of the high end of the interior design world. It was hard. It was a murky industry even much more murkier than it is now. And I think it was genuinely hard to know well, who are the best people? That was a very difficult thing to figure out. And by kind of putting a list together and being like, here are the hundred people, it genuinely, I think for a lot of potential clients, for these really high end designers, this was really helpful, useful information and a lot of people did get work out of it. I talked to a couple designers who said, you know, this was. Was you got a Manhattan multi billionaire who wants to hire a designer. The first thing he looks at is 8100 and narrows it down from there. So it was not only this kind of fun old school page rent story, but it was a sort of powerful business driver for a lot of these designers earlier on.
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A
And it's hard to think of a time where it didn't exist. It seems like such an institution in this industry to your point. I mean, it feels like it has been around for 100 years, but really it hasn't.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And like I said, it wasn't until Margaret Russell took over the magazine in 2010 that it became Every Other Year. And then Amy Astley, who's now the global editorial director, it became annual. The other thing about the 8100 is it's also like a commercial engine for the magazine itself. The issues are celebrated. And someone told me that especially because designers obsess over the AD100 that trade brands really see that issue as like, we're going to get in there because we know designers are going to be obsessed with it. We're going to put our ad dollars into that issue. And so it not only became beneficial for the designers to be on it, it also became beneficial for Architectural Digest to do it. And so it really became this kind of engine of the two things feeding each other, which is part of why it's every year now, as opposed to every few years as it was in the beginning.
- [22:27]
A
Yeah. And you mentioned Margaret Russell, who many refer to as Peggy Russell back in the day. I think in a way she had one of the toughest jobs in the history of publishing. Not only coming in after Paige Rents, who had been there for, let's call it 35, and so taking over for this legendary editor, but then also taking this list and having to dramatically cut it back. Because we've got to update this, we've got to change this, we've got to make it something different than it was in the past. And I think that is just one of the many reasons why Margaret Russell stepped into such a tough role and really had to do so much work to really sort of recreate what that magazine would become over the course of her tenure.
- [23:15]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the things that makes me so interested in the AD100 is that while it was this sort of brilliant invention, by calling it the AD100, you have this, like, yearly chore of like, well, we have to get some new people on, which means we have to cut some people. And how do we do that? You know. You know, as an editor who, you know, does not have to make a list of 100 names, I just felt this like, oh, my God, I would not want to be in those people's shoes. And as you mentioned, Margaret Russell really, you know, cut like half the list, you know, or I think more than half the list. So there's been a lot of churn over the years. And of course, that's part of the fun of having a spreadsheet is that you really see who gets on it and who gets off. You sort of see the kind of history of the design industry through this rather bizarre spreadsheet that I keep. And I want to apologize to the Conde Nast PR person I was asking. Architectural Digest didn't participate in the story, but I sent them a list of fact checking questions and I feel like sending them the spreadsheet. I was like, some serial killer who's like, hey, here's this weird document I made. Do you want to to look at this 2000 record database?
- [24:17]
A
Hey, I've been stalking you for years, and here's the proof. What did you learn keeping track of it over all the years that you did?
- [24:26]
B
It's interesting. It is a spreadsheet, but you can really see the history of the design industry. People's careers rising and falling, and so many recognizable names. One of my favorite details is you see Peter Marino when he first comes on the list? He's very preppy and he's got a little terrier dog in his photo and then slowly turns into the leather God that he is today. But you also can sort of step back and look at the list of data you really see there's such a concentration. About half the firms are from New York, for example. Probably not a shock, but you really do see that in the data. The other thing that is maybe not a surprise is that the list excuse, male. Especially in the earlier years, there was the very first list. There was only 22 women out of something like 100. 112 principles. All in the balance has certainly gotten more equal over the years, but especially in the early decades, it was definitely male dominated and it's just too bad in an industry that has so many strong women in it that it's been that way. But it's moving towards more equality in that regard, to be sure.
- [25:24]
A
Well, so speaking of where it's moving, what do we think is the future of this institution that we call the ad 100?
- [25:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm really curious about that because I think in the 90s, it had this incredible power because it was just the only game in town. This was the most powerful list of high end residential interior designers by the most glamorous magazine. And now there's so many ways for people to find designers. I do think it still matters, though. It's a very useful. It has status, especially in the industry. How many people just say like, oh yeah, I work with the 8100. It's a very useful and impactful shorthand. I don't know that it has quite the same economic impact for designers. It's difficult to study that that's not on the spreadsheet. But I think it still matters. And I think it's up to the editors of AD to sort of keep it culturally relevant. And it's very valuable for them. I think it's valuable for the designers who own it. I know there's a lot of skeptics out there, but after spending a long time putting this together, I feel like it's got legs.
- [26:21]
A
Well, I was surprised. In recent interviews we spoke with the both Seth Kaplowitz and with Keith Granite, who both weighed in on their takes about the AD100. And both of them sort of downplayed what they thought was the significance of being on it. But I think when you ask the average designer, even though Seth said that designers show up at his office and don't even mention that they want to be on that list, I find that hard to believe that that's not a burning desire of most up and coming designers and most in the industry. That for all of the talk, I think think they do still want to be on it. And I do think it's important. I hope people enjoy the piece. It's always fun. Looking back at Paige Rentz's reign. Moving on, we're going to talk about House Beautiful, which posed an interesting question. Can you actually teach good taste?
- [27:12]
B
Yes. The magazine's editorial director, Joanna Saltz, asked that very question to a panel of design experts in a recent video series with varying responses. I just want to talk about this one because it's such a, in a weird way, it's kind of Like a cocktail party conversation, but it's sort of a profound one. I know you put this up on Instagram and got some interesting responses, right.
- [27:31]
A
Shaun Yashar was eager to send me a piece that he had written a while back that I think we might have talked about at the time, entitled, you guessed it, you can't teach taste. And a lot of people weighed in feeling the same way. But I do think that you can expose yourself. I do think that art history education, I think that design history education can inform you. But I do think that so many of the conversations we've had about design criticism have often led to the subjective nature of what is good design or what is a great room or what is good taste. I think a lot of people would say, well, who are you to tell us what good taste is? Right?
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B
I am nobody. I am definitely the wrong person to tell you what good taste is.
- [28:23]
A
I think people can learn. I think you can be exposed to a lot. And again, I think that in a way, this is a big part of what is central to the fears around what artificial intelligence might be able to bring forward in the coming years. And I think this issue of can you actually teach taste? I wonder, can a machine learn taste? And is it right now, as we're
- [28:49]
B
talking, Fred, is it going to nice?
- [28:52]
A
It's chatgpt at the Metropolitan Museum of Art right now, just learning taste.
- [28:58]
B
Yeah, well, we got tariffs now, we got AI on the podcast. I'm glad we have it. I think it's a really profound question though, because it gets at the central question of what is taste? And I think there's so many very knee jerk reactions. Of course the AI has no taste, like the stuff is cheesy and bad. And I understand that because the results are, you know, tend to be generic when you put something into an AI engine. But honestly, it has better taste than I think I do. I don't know if that, I don't know if that says a lot necessarily, but.
- [29:29]
A
Well, it's interesting that we've spoken to so many people recently who talk to designers saying that they should stress the fact that, okay, sure, you might be able to find all of these things online, but only the designer can really procure them and install them. And all of those elements where it used to be, you were hiring that person as much for their taste and the design style that we're going to bring. And so it's frightening to think of someone going online and hiring that ChatGPT design firm to do everything for them and then turning to the designer and say, okay, now execute this.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah, that's a future that definitely no one wants, right? Yeah, that's not.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah, that's the fear. So we look forward to talking about more of the fears that the design industry faces in the future. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the latest showroom openings and an update on the long running Burke Decor saga. But first, a quick break. Newport Brass, the premier maker of solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures has recently expanded their product portfolio with ultra thin shower heads, additional lavatory offerings, and new kitchen extensions in their celebrated Taft and Haney collections. These expansions give designers and homeowners even more flexibility to create truly bespoke, luxurious spaces that are built to last. Visit newportbrass.com new to learn more this spring, Laloy heads to high Point Market with an exciting lineup of new introductions, including a debut rug collection featuring a groundbreaking new construction along with a beautiful new season from Rifle Paper company. They're also hosting exclusive showroom events, including one with designer Amber Lewis. If you're attending High Point, book an appointment or connect with your Lelloy sales representative@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com. And we're back. I'm joined now once again by Lux Editor in Chief Jill Cohen. Welcome back, Jill.
- [31:54]
C
Thank you for having me, Dennis. It's always a pleasure to be here with you.
- [31:57]
A
Well, so much to talk about and I'm so glad you're here. We're gonna ask you to put on your book publishing hat before we talk about Lux and everything that's going on there. Listeners might not recall, but before Jill became the editor in chief at Lux, actually Sandow had purchased Jill's long running book publishing company. Remind listeners about that Jill and how that came about.
- [32:22]
C
I've known Adam Sandow for probably a decade and several years ago he approached me after we had earlier meetings about joining forces and I think it was post Covid. I was really interested in hearing what he was doing and material bank was just booming and whenever we get together it's just kind of an embarrassment of riches with ideas. Both of us are big idea people and when we got together he talked about all the things he wasn't doing and books were one of them. And the other thing that really interested me was Adam has had for a long time the exclusive distribution rights to the private airports, the FBOs through his company Mediajet. Anyone who flies Private will see there's a rag that really just contains the Sandow Design Group. It's kind of a secret sauce of interior design and Lux and Metropolis and all of his great brands and several other magazines and things he's involved in. And it's an unbelievable opportunity because the reality is it's the most exclusive marketing channel there is. I mean, you know, what really divides the world are on the haves and
- [33:40]
A
are those of us who fly private and those of us who don't. And so I'm in the. I'm in the don't category, but I hear amazing things about those who do. Jill, Seem. They seem to have a lot of homes and a lot of income.
- [33:53]
C
Well, at 10,000 an hour and the net worth of over 100 million, this is really a group that is elite. But one of the funniest things was that Adam asked me when I was doing books. He said, said, I want to know, why do people come to you for the books? All these architects and designers, they want a book. What is it? Do they? They want, you know, to be celebrities. They want visibility, licensing, whatever. And it was all of that. But I said to them, the reality is, by the time somebody comes to me for a book, they've been pretty well published. Some of them have licensing. But really what they want is they want that. That one big client. And when Adam and I started talking about this, it was like. Like, okay, we were both energized by the opportunity of what we could do for the private airports. And we had a lunch where I brought Lizzy and Melissa, my book partners, and we started brainstorming about all the different ideas. So once I got to Lux and I got myself settled, which took more than a minute, once I got settled, we started really focusing on how we do this. And we basically did the first round of invite only. And what we did was we were looking for people who already had significant and impressive work, who already had this type of client. And we spent a lot of time thinking about what would really entice somebody to be part of a group book. What if we made sure they were the only one in their region? What if we made sure their number one competitors weren't in with them?
- [35:32]
A
Them.
- [35:33]
C
What if we made sure they were kind of the master of that category? And it was like, okay, who's the best classicist and who's the best Southerner, and who should we get in Florida and who would be a great landscape? And we immediately had calls from the first people who wanted in. And I have to say, the funny thing is you heard exactly what we thought would happen happen. Guys like Tom Kligerman or Ed Hollander were like, oh, this is my client. I'm in, right?
- [36:04]
A
No persuasion necessary.
- [36:06]
C
No persuasion. Dan Kirkpatrick, this is my client. I mean, Errol Dieger, it's like, these are the clients that my client's life's private. I want in. And you know what was so interesting was I had been shooting in Nashville for Steve Gianetti, a big house. He did Bliss Farm and he wasn't sure that this client client would allow the house to be in a magazine. But he introduced me to the owner who was really controlling this big build for years. And he said, oh, this is Jill Cohen. We're shooting. She does my books. But she's editor in chief of Lux and is interested in running this house in the magazine. He said, Lux, oh my God, I'm at the airports. I grab all the regions and bring them home to my wife. Yes, I'll go in Lux. So for the private air travel traveler, first of all, it's male dominated books in the retail world are purchased 85% by women. But the private airports, it's 65% men. 35% of them hold two or more board positions. They are the decision makers. And our idea was, let's get the books in their hands. And once we had the first five people, we knew the level we were working at and we also knew who would fit. And it was the hardest project. It took us a year to do it because really you have 15 people and everybody's thinking, what is my chapter going to look like? And of course there were 15 opinions. Oh, too many pictures, too few pictures. I don't like a grid. I do like a grid. And we wanted some level of uniformity so it didn't look like a hodgepodge. And then we had the challenge of what are we going to do about a cover? Like, everybody's going to want their project on the COVID Sure, Right. And how do we sequence it? And what do we do if two people are in the same region? And what was great was especially because so many of these clients like Stan Dixon or Coleman and Kravis or Historical Concepts would say, look, we want to show you a bunch of houses. Which one do you think is right? Right. And really what I was going for was, well, where do you want more of your work? You know, maybe you're based in Atlanta, but you're doing a lot in Palm Beach. You want to put in a Palm beach house or does somebody else have the Palm beach spot? You know, so, and then what I did in the back was every firm had a bio page and we selected four or five houses that were nothing like what what they showed. It was either from different regions or different styles to kind of say, hey, we're not a one shot. And really the letter that I did in this book was an invitation reach out to these people. It's like, here's your private tour. This curated selection is the best of the best and they do different things. You're going to find somebody here that interests you.
- [39:00]
A
Take me back, Jill. Because one of the things that I'm so curious about and I would love for you to expand further on on is what you outlined as the challenge with the book distribution system that exists today. So as you were saying earlier, people reached for a book for a lot of different reasons. And you and I have talked about this in the past. So some people use it as a branding tool.
- [39:28]
C
Right?
- [39:28]
A
Some people say, we've arrived at a certain level. We have a coffee table book, here it is. But we don't need it to do a lot more than that. Other people, to your point, are targeting this, they assume, and they hope, wealthier client that's going to get their hands on this book. But to your point, how is that wealthy client getting this book in their hand? And how is it making the impression that you want it to?
- [39:53]
C
Well, the book industry, like many industries, has suffered from massive consolidation.
- [39:59]
B
Right?
- [39:59]
C
Okay, so number one, we don't have 50 publishers doing coffee table books. We have, you know, six, seven, sorry to the others that are there, but let's say six or seven that I work with. And the margins in book are so small. You know, it's expensive to print, it's expensive to ship, it's expensive to produce. Paper's expensive. Photography is expensive. Okay, so everybody's spending money. And then what do we have? We used to have 70,000 bookstores. Now maybe we have 5,000. And they, they can't stock everything. The business model has always been a challenge. The business model is 100% consignment. I mean, what kind of a business is that? It's like it's on the shelf for three months, it's not moving. I'm sending it back. I mean, honestly, when I was at Random House, I am not going to say how many decades ago, but it was a couple. I remember we had, you know, some major, you know, know, insider in economics come speak to us and say, you, you guys are like the movie Industry, you get one hit, it pays for, you know, a hundred losers. And what's changed over the years, and fortunately for me, it helped me grow my business when I started JCA in 2006, is that the publishers had to get a lot tighter and they had to start realizing, you know, we're focusing on a handful of wholesalers and Amazon and BNN and how do we make money that way. And what they had to focus on were brand name people. I mean, kids books are written by celebrities now, right? And coffee table books, we sell them. Now when somebody has a big enough name and a big enough platform where the publisher and Amazon feels comfortable enough that, okay, they've got a following, enough of a following to buy the number of books we need to break even. And so, you know, it's a challenging business. It has always been challenging and now it's double challenged. Because social media, you can see free pictures all day, all day long. And I think the biggest change in the last five years is where people are questioning, do I need to spend $60 if I can see that if I'm on this person's social media showing me pictures every single day. And, you know, at Rizzoli, you know, where we'll be, you know, meeting with Charles and the team and talking about bringing in an author. It's really, we really focus on what do they have exclusively that we can hold for a while because we have to reveal something. We can't, we can't do a portfolio of what's out there. Everybody's seen it. So I mean, it's always going to, I think it's always going to be a business for the interior design world to look at each other's work and be inspired by it and get new ideas. And I think that that's great. I don't ever see it ending, honestly. I mean, I have to laugh. How many years ago when ebooks came out, everybody's like, oh, that's the end of your career, Jill. And then it was like, okay, well then Instagram. Oh, that's the end too. Well, maybe I'll last out.
- [43:11]
A
Yeah. And that's the amazing thing about that vehicle. And even with so much crowded media. I want to talk about Lux, because you've another big project that you've been working on is this big research focused issue.
- [43:25]
C
Oh my God, yes.
- [43:26]
A
So let's talk about that.
- [43:28]
C
Okay, yeah. This is where I'm really going to punish myself. Like, let's do something we've never done before. Please stop me from ever saying that again. But last year, Erica Holborn and Bobby Bonet. Erica's our CEO and Bobby's the president. These guys are fast. They're drivers. They're brilliant. Like, what are we doing this week? Okay? New initiatives all the time. And so we decided last year, let's blow up one issue next year and make it like a national. Okay? Let's do one cover. And trust me, I have to. I have two weeks to figure out what that cover is going to be. And I'm really stressing. I am stressing out about it. Okay? One cover across the whole country and 100 editorial pages at a new. No template. Okay? I'm the one who complains, like, oh, we have a template. I don't want a template. Now we don't have a template. And it's a bad. It's bad because I have my entire editorial team going, oh, where's it going to go? And what are we saying? So what we did was last fall, when I had this idea, we put together a survey to a thousand design professionals. Everybody that's done a book with me, everybody that's done books, everybody's on. That's on all the big lists and all of our gold list features. And it's a luxury report. So I just went to the high end and we sent out to a thousand people. And what was amazing to me was our respondents, 95% of them were the principals of the firm. And what we wanted to know was how these people are making decisions, how they're spending their money, what's their priority, and everything down to color palettes, regionality, indoor outdoor entertaining, whatever. And then what we did was we went through and said, how are we going to dispense this information? Information at the same time making a beautiful, spectacular magazine. Nobody wants to just read data. So our hundred pages are divided into every one of our regions in the front, showing houses and significant things like. I'll drop one hint, like SoCal, the average house, $11 million. And what are they putting in it? It's pretty extraordinary. And the Rockies are right behind it. 75% of the respondents say that their clients have more than one home. I mean, it's a lot. And of course, this is really in our regions. And, you know, we only distribute to the wealth pockets of America. So these regions, you know, I will tell you, it's. Some of it's expected, some of it's unexpected. But what fascinated me was the results that go across the country. And the whole well is going to be about 50 pages of incredible images with the stats of where they're spending that their money. And it's a wow. I will tell you that universally, oh, my God. Kitchen is the priority everywhere.
- [46:17]
A
Really?
- [46:18]
C
Yeah. By far the number one investment in a home now. Number one, it's the most public area of the house. Somebody's dropping by and coming in to like, pick up their kid. They're in your kitchen, they're looking at your, you know, your countertops, they're looking at your accessories, they're looking at your, your appliances. You know, this is where everybody stops in. If you're thr a big party. Everybody's walking in there. They're seeing it. It's very, very visible. And also, if you're interested in technology and you're interested in entertaining and you're interested in pulling people together, this is where it happens. You know, I mean, the living room is a big priority. And I was surprised to see that. You know, everybody talks about the art market being down on these clients. They're spending as much on the art and accessories as they are on their furniture. And in the public space in that living room, they're not worrying about their budget. The words on the survey came immune to the budget there. Okay, but when it comes to the kitchen, everybody goes over budget. They want what they want, but.
- [47:28]
A
And what. So what are they going over budget on? What are they? I mean, oh, my God. All these new induction ranges. Is it. I mean, what, are people going crazy?
- [47:35]
C
It's everything. I mean, I just counter jumps. Yeah. I just went to cnext and K Biz and I will tell you, it's like, it's eye opening to go to these shows where it's kind of unlimited. Everything. So you've got everything from the new technology, the downdraft, the gigantic slabs. It's a show off area. It used to be like, oh, I'm going to have a 2 inch marble island. Forget it. Now it's got to be double that. And it's got to have a waterfall and it's got to have an image on it. And it's, you know, and then, and then inside of it, you have to have, you know, kind of built in refrigerator drawers and steamers and. And then there's the coffee thing on the side. And then there's the extended rooms where the pantry is not just a pantry. Oh, that's the other thing. Like 90% of these houses, it's. The kitchen is like, that's visible, but the cook's kitchen is behind you, you know, where they're making a mess. You know.
- [48:35]
A
Right.
- [48:35]
C
So the catering kitchen, there's that. Because kitchen is very clean. And then, of course, God forbid, the kids open the real fridge. You gotta have the drawers under for them to get their own snacks out and all of that. And the breakfast nook and then the, you know. No, and not only that, but now the whole thing that we talk about now is the appliances are all over the house. Nobody has a primary bedroom suite anymore unless there's, you know, you know, the coffee and tea area in the morning. There's like maybe a little, you know. Oh, and the other favorite thing in this survey was the.
- [49:10]
A
This.
- [49:11]
C
The kitchens aren't, you know, stuck in the kitchen anymore. You know, they expand out to the connecting space and between the kitchen and the living room where there's a big bar and the wine cellar, often that's not in the cellar anymore. It's out because it's beautiful. But with all the talk about people not drinking anymore, I was just going to say. Jill, tell us 90. Okay. 95% of the respondents said that the homes they do, 95% of them had a bar and a high percentage wine cellar. That's more than the percentage that have a home. Gin.
- [49:44]
A
Right.
- [49:45]
C
Ben Johnson said to me last week, we did a panel the other day, and he said, listen, we just finished this house, and the clients don't drink, but they had an exquisite bar and wine cellar because it's like, if we're going to have a party, we need it.
- [49:59]
A
Right.
- [49:59]
C
The other astonishing thing that came both in the survey and at the conference was outdoor. So many of our regions, outdoor living, it's nine months of the year.
- [50:10]
A
Well, so that. That seems to be of all the things that came out of COVID The growth of outdoor seems to be the trend that has stayed with us and, and even expanded. I. I feel as if the outdoor category is bigger than it has ever been, 100%.
- [50:25]
C
And the interesting thing is it's no longer just like the pool. That's not it. Right. They've got the barstools outside of the kitchen window because there's that. Then they have the entertaining place by the pool house. Then they have another section with a table and the outdoor grill, maybe even, like, you know, more accessories out there. But what's exquisite. And we're showing more and more of how they're tying the aesthetic to the inside of the house so that you might see this kind of beautiful stone and wood and whatever outside. And it's more rough and iron and really interesting materials. And then you see it More fine tuned inside so that they've connected these areas. You know how it used to be like your kitchen looked like one thing and then your outdoor was another. Not, not in these houses.
- [51:12]
A
Right.
- [51:13]
C
This is just so cohesive. And also lots of interesting things about wellness. You know, everybody talks about wellness and everybody thinks, you know, what is wellness? Is it like the sauna in the bathroom? Is it the cold plunge? What we're seeing from the survey, and this is a very interesting interest insight is that people want the red light therapy, the sauna, the steam, all of that. The prediction here on these high end houses is that these are going to become spaces like gyms. It's too much to put in a bathroom. There are some people that are building and they're putting it all in the bathroom, but it's almost like a sanctuary space is next.
- [51:54]
B
Wow.
- [51:55]
A
Okay.
- [51:56]
C
Yeah, yeah. Wellness technology and you know, kitchen, kitchen, kitchen and gath. It's like it's, it's. There's a lot, there's a lot. There's a lot of toys. A lot of toys you can have.
- [52:08]
A
Well, that's so interesting. And does, and does aging in place come up in any of these conversations? Is there more preparation for people being able to stay in their homes for the rest of their lives and all of that?
- [52:20]
C
Yes. Well, here's what's happening and this is really, really to the, the luxury living reports of this is to the uber wealthy. But really what's happening is more and more family compounds. And I think this happened a couple of. So the parents would have a house in Nantucket or somewhere like that, you know, and then the kids came and crashed out with them during COVID Then it got too crowded. Then the neighbor sold their house, they bought that for the kids. Then they start connecting those houses. Then they have a central pool in the middle of the property. But what's very interesting is that we're seeing, when I was out in Deer Valley, what we're seeing when you listen to the owner's reps and the builders is that these new, new compounds and new houses that are being built, it's so many of them in a family trust and the planning is in place. You know, it's no longer downsizing. It's like the older generation that has the money, they're going to do a right size house. They don't want everyone sleeping in there. They're giving them the guest property, the whatever and the family is planning how that's going to play out. And you know, I remember seeing one in the Hamptons last summer, the summer before I shot it with Andrew Kogar. And, and they had a big house and then they had two houses for the kids and their families and then they put one in the middle. That was where everyone was going to dine. It was the big kitchen and the big dining room and it was the eating place so they could be together for dinner. I mean, that's luxury. That's luxury, yes. Whereas my kids, one's on the west coast, one's on the east coast. I had to photograph Photoshop a grandchild into another picture so that way I could look at them together
- [54:08]
B
anyway.
- [54:09]
C
It's pretty funny. But, but in this world of luxury, let me bring it back to something we're not gushing over. You know, how the privilege can do all these things. What I'm trying to bring attention to are the, the hard working firms that are really working, working day and night. And this is a very hardcore service industry. It's not easy. And everybody travels and services like crazy and they deserve attention. And so these books are being done to bring attention to the people that have put in the work.
- [54:51]
A
So the market intelligence report comes out, you're making a cover decision, it sounds like in the next couple of weeks. So when's it coming out?
- [54:58]
C
It's the July, August issue.
- [54:59]
A
Okay.
- [55:00]
C
It's a hundred editorial, brand new pages. I mean, we have, we're doing a lot of like, here's the thing, once in a while we get an extraordinary house. It's just sitting on a cliff in the Pacific Northwest and it's unbelievable. And I want it on, I want everyone to see it. And only people in that region see it. So some of the things that we're putting in this center of the book are extraordinary houses, is that we've had the privilege of publishing and that everybody hasn't seen, but then also showing a range of ideas and regions. I think of balancing all of our regions. What's fun about that is you also see the common thread. One of the things that really struck me in the survey was about materials, how universally across the board, people want materials with patina, they want unfinished brass, they want soft plaster, they want tree of plaster, New York, you know, California, Texas. There's a uniformity in that and comfort. I don't think we're, we're ever not going to, we're never going to see the end of like the boucle chair. No.
- [56:05]
A
Are you breaking that to me? Are you breaking it to me that we're not going to see ivory boucle go away. Is that, is that what this research study shows, that it's alive and well?
- [56:13]
C
Yeah.
- [56:13]
A
Now, now I'm cutting this off now. We're wrapping this up.
- [56:17]
C
It did not specifically say blue clay.
- [56:19]
B
It.
- [56:21]
C
Incredible comfort. Incredible comfort.
- [56:23]
B
Okay.
- [56:23]
A
Yes.
- [56:23]
C
Incredible comfort.
- [56:24]
A
Lots of ways to achieve incredible comfort. But I'm a big fan of unlacquered brass, so I'm glad to hear that that's leading the way.
- [56:31]
C
And everybody wants their dogs to be on the couch.
- [56:34]
A
See, And I want that too. So what does that mean? More performance fabric? Because everyone wants a dog.
- [56:38]
C
Yes, 100%. 100%, yes. Everybody, no matter how wealthy they are, they want things that last.
- [56:45]
A
Does sustainability come up at all, Jill, with all these rich people in these conversations, caring about the environment, does that come up?
- [56:52]
C
Yes. And what's really interesting is it's, it's not. How do I say this? They don't call it a number. Wait, they don't say it's a number one priority.
- [57:04]
A
Right.
- [57:05]
C
But they want thing. But they say they want things that, that last. They, they want, they want things that have very high quality and craftsmanship. They want personalization. They want things that aren't going to. To need high maintenance. They want natural materials came out everywhere, natural, organic. So, yes, so we read it as a high level of interest in sustainability, but they're not looking at it as everything recyclable. But the way they describe what they want there is a high priority there. Although they still want a 16 car garage.
- [57:47]
A
Yes. So there you go. That tells you a little bit about the priorities. Well, it's fascinating to get such a view into this world. And as you said at the beginning of this conversation, so many of these design firms are chasing after this billionaire client. And I get it. It's a huge part of what drives our industry. And I'm eager to hear how the book does in the private sector, airports. And I'm. And I'm eager to read through all of the research and hear more about what you've learned in the July August issue. So I will have to wait for that.
- [58:22]
C
You are the first call I will make.
- [58:24]
A
Well, well. And I appreciate that, love that about you. And I'm interested in all of this and I love that you're diving into all of these different worlds and figuring out what is driving so much of the industry. So I'm eager to hear. Hear more. I'm grateful for you making the time this morning, so thank you for that.
- [58:43]
C
Thank you so much, Dennis, and thanks for keeping everyone in the industry informed on everything that matters.
- [58:54]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have
- [59:01]
B
caught our eye forever.
- [59:02]
A
Caught your eye?
- [59:02]
B
A cool article in the New York Times. Times caught my eye this week, Dennis. You know, we've talked about this, you know, silver tsunami phenomenon of so many baby boomers, you know, aging in place. And how was the design industry going to react to that? There was just a great article on, you know, that the Times did, where they did this almost infographic about how to make, you know, a home better for aging in place. And it was just talking about it is sort of silly. I'll just, we'll include a link in the show notes. You can go look at it. But it was a beautifully executed list of guidelines, some of them kind of unexpected. And I think it's, it's something that designers should, should be thinking about and really well executed piece of, piece of media we'll catch earlier this week.
- [59:40]
A
Dennis yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I think that's a subject that we will be talking about a great deal more in the future. And I wish companies were doing more to address address this aging at home issue. As we mentioned earlier, I was at the Nice gala last, last evening and a couple of things came out of it that really stuck with me. First are our board chair at Nice. It is Ellen Kravit from the Kravit family of brands, and she was talking about some updates to the curriculum that are coming. And one of the things that was striking to me was the inclusion of ethical AI integration as part of a course study that they'll be doing at NISID in the future. So I'm, I'm keen to hear more about that. And I think it's really great that that conversation is being had in school because this is an important part of the future of design education, to be sure. But the other thing that really stuck with me, Fred, Bill Sofield was receiving a Albert Hadley Lifetime Achievement Award last night. And he is a remarkable man on many levels. And I would encourage everyone to study not only his great work, but also his character, because one of the things that he left people with in his remarks was he talked about how over the years he weighed what was more important, being smart or being kind. And in the end he decided be kind. And I, and I thought that that was such a great message and there were so many people who turned out last night to celebrate this man who has had such a huge impact on so many people's lives. So many people in the industry worked for him at one time or another, and they all have a story to tell about the impact that he has made on them. And we raised so much money for scholarships in part because of his involvement. People, people wanted to give and show up. So I think we talk so often about people's work, but I think just as importantly, it might be good to study the, the character of, of some of the great figures in our industry, and he is certainly one of them. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com. if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome. Com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.