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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Williams-Sonoma's surprise acquisition. Plus: Design center drama
00:32:52
BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus and editor in chief Kaitlin Petersen discuss the biggest news in the design world
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- [00:07]
Fred Nicholaus
This is Business of home. I'm Fred Nicholaus in for Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday show. Today we're going to be catching up on the biggest news in the design industry, including the latest on tariffs, William Sonoma's recent acquisition, and a spotlight on Midwestern design. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's editor in chief, Caitlin Peterson. Hi, Caitlin.
- [00:27]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, Fred. How you doing?
- [00:28]
Fred Nicholaus
I'm doing pretty good. How are you?
- [00:29]
Caitlin Peterson
Good. How does it feel to be you're in the same seat, but how does it feel to be on that side of the microphone? I don't know.
- [00:35]
Fred Nicholaus
The big mic, the big chair. Yes. Eagle eared listeners may have noticed that someone is missing. Dennis Gully is in London trying to evade tariffs on pocket squares and bespoke shirts, leaving me and Caitlin here alone to do the Thursday show. But we got it. We got it. Yeah, I'm doing fine. It seems like everybody's traveling so much. Dennis is in London. He's been in London twice over the past week. You're headed where next week again?
- [00:58]
Caitlin Peterson
So I'm going to be headed to Chicago next week. The Design Social Pop up has its next outing in Lake Forest, Illinois. So I'll be there with a couple dozen bespoke and boutique interior design brands and doing a fun chat with Tom Stringer about he's going to be showing off his design presentation to the audience, so that should be pretty fun.
- [01:19]
Fred Nicholaus
And I'm going to Copenhagen, which is the Chicago of Europe, as we all know.
- [01:24]
Caitlin Peterson
We should really love that.
- [01:25]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I'm sure they love that, too. Speaking of the Midwest, I'm curious, like, what's been your favorite trip of the year? I feel like you've been out and about a lot. I guess we all have. But what's been your favorite trip so far?
- [01:35]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, I went to San Sebastian in Spain with Leaders of Design in April, and it was just an extraordinary, immersive trip both in, you know, that corner of the world where the architecture is incredible. You know, we went to Bilbao and saw the Guggenheim there. The food is off the charts. But also it was a really intimate group of, you know, principals sort of at the top of their game, getting really candid with one another about the challenges and triumphs in their businesses, which is just always a rewarding couple of a rewarding way to spend a couple of days.
- [02:11]
Fred Nicholaus
I love to get candid in San Sebastian. If you're going to get candid about the challenges of your business, might as.
- [02:15]
Caitlin Peterson
Well you should be in a Beach town in Spain.
- [02:17]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Cool. Well, quickly looking back on Monday's episode, a conversation with Stelline Volandes and Elisa Lipski Karaz of Eldacor. It's kind of a fun one. Like a fun, you know, media conversation with the editorial leaders of Eldecor. I mean they're very upbeat about design media. I think you kind of have to be when you're leading Eldecor. Surprise, surprise. But they're, you know, they seem very engaged by the, you know, the challenges that we all know about. They're very multi platform. You know, they want Eldercore to be good on its website, to be good on its Instagram feed. They want it to be good, of course, in the pages of the magazine. And I think Stelline has been so good at making Town and Country, which is like a what, 170 year old publication, feel very fresh and irreverent. I guess I'm curious, like it is always interesting to talk to people who are like really optimistic about design media because you get used to being very doomy about it. Like what do you think of that? Is there a reason to be optimistic?
- [03:09]
Caitlin Peterson
I think you can find reasons to be optimistic amid maybe market forces at large that are not incredibly favorable for how media brands have typically made money and found success. But you know, I think listening to Steli and listening to Elisa, they're focused a lot on the Eldecor audience and really on what makes Eldecor singular in the way that it talks about design. And I think so many media companies are coming back around to that idea that instead of, you know, millions of eyeballs on the Internet, if we focus on people who are passionate about the stories we're telling, there are really avenues to success.
- [03:45]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, I think they're rightly focused on, let's just make cool stuff with the right voice and the right perspective. They're not as focused on what's the click, but that's a big departure.
- [03:55]
Caitlin Peterson
Sorry to interrupt. I think that's a huge departure for some of the big media brands who really did kind of put their heads down and say, how can we maximize clicks for a really long time?
- [04:04]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. And I think Stellene definitely has like the juice at Hearst to push through ups and downs of revenue. So excited to see what, what they do with it. And I'm sure we'll probably hear from them again in the not too distant future. But in the meantime, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.
- [04:25]
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- [05:07]
Fred Nicholaus
And we're back. Where else can we start but tariffs in back to back rulings Last week, federal courts struck down President Trump's sweeping Liberation Day tariffs. Then a day later, an appeals court temporarily reinstated them. So, as you were. But meanwhile, the administration also unveiled even higher levies on imported steel and aluminum. The numbers are up to 50% now. More tariff madness. Caitlin, how have you been keeping track?
- [05:32]
Caitlin Peterson
I haven't. I feel like I found out that these tariffs got repeal repealed, whatever, they don't count. And then they do count. Kind of in the same breath, I was like, oh, that happened. It didn't happen. Okay. I think it kind of speaks to just how fast all of this is happening and how hard it is to keep up.
- [05:50]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Yeah. It's funny because last week I think Dennis and I were talking about the EU tariffs, which already feel like a year ago, and we didn't put a timestamp, which we normally do, and it came back to bite us because, you know, so much happened in the next 48 hours. I'm going to put a timestamp on this. It's Wednesday, June 4th at 2:50pm so we'll, we'll see what happens the next 24 hours.
- [06:08]
Caitlin Peterson
And I think the EU is meeting with US trade representatives legitimately right now or earlier today.
- [06:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Maybe they can call into the Thursday show and let, let us know what's going on. Yeah, I mean, just to sort of briefly sort of explain what happened here. So late last week, two federal courts, the U.S. court of International Trade and the U.S. district Court in Washington, essentially struck down all the Liberation Day tariffs, saying that the legal justification, this thing called IPA or the International Economic Emergency Powers act, which I'm sure we were all familiar with, could not be applied to tariffs the way that Trump was applying them. So it seemed like, oh, my gosh, it's all over. And then of course, an appeals court overturned it and allowed or at least temporarily put a stay on it and allowed the tariffs to stay in place so that the suspicion is that it will work its way up to the Supreme Court and they'll have their say as to whether Trump can actually put in these so called Liberation Day tariffs. On These are the 145% on China, the global 10% on everybody that's getting negotiated right now. But meanwhile, as I said earlier, the industry specific tariffs like steel and aluminum, Trump still has control over. So that's why those numbers just went up. I'm curious, in terms of the Liberation Day tariffs, how are brands reacting to this? When you have conversations with people in the industry, how are they reacting to this information?
- [07:21]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, there's no real timeline for clarity, I think here. And I think that's maybe the thing that's most clear. You know, this specific, you know, will they, won't they? Ruling on tariffs could stretch on for a year or more before it makes its way to the Supreme Court. I think if you're waiting for that level of like, is this allowed? Will this happen? You know, the world is going to pass you by before you start moving. And I think, you know, if you haven't come to this realization already, I think a lot of the brands that I'm talking to are saying, like, we just have to start moving forward. Whether or not these are informed decisions. If you celebrated for the 45 minutes that there were no tariffs, the party's over.
- [07:58]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, you celebrated too soon. It's funny because it just adds like another layer of uncertainty. It was like before the uncertainty was how big are the numbers going to be. Now the uncertainty is, does he even have the authority to do this and when will that become clear?
- [08:10]
Caitlin Peterson
Also, do you get a refund if the Supreme Court says no? In two years?
- [08:14]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. Well, that's been a big topic of conversation is will there be refunds issued? Certainly a lot of listeners are hoping, yes, but that information is not clear. It just makes it very, very difficult to operate. You know, it's interesting, I think, because we're all a little bit exhausted of these tariffs. I think people are like, I don't want to hear about how brands are reacting to this, but people do have to make real decisions around this. I was having a conversation with someone from Regina Andrew, Detroit, back when 145% was still on. And by the way, they made the point very clearly that, you know, these tariffs, even though it's only 30% on China now, that's on top of the tariffs from 2018. You have the steel and aluminum tariffs in there as. So it's not just 30, it's 30 plus a whole bunch of other stuff. But the guy was making the point that they had to sort of reorganize their whole inventory around. Well, what was the stuff we brought in before the tariffs? You know, are we going to sell to all these random e commerce sites when we really want to have control over our inventory? Can we start moving, sourcing around? Can we start making more, you know, one of a kind, bespoke items? So brands are really, you know, having to make decisions whether they have clarity or not.
- [09:15]
Caitlin Peterson
I think it's also worth noting that the Liberation Day tariffs that maybe panicked the design industry the most, separate from China, all got paused pretty immediately for 90 days. And that 90 days is coming up. Yeah, July, you know, the big numbers that sent a lot of design industry businesses into a panic on places like Vietnam and Indonesia and the Philippines aren't settled. And that's still gonna be coming in the next couple of weeks as well.
- [09:40]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, exactly. They said they wanted to do 90 deals in 90 days, and there was a headline at the time saying, 60 days in, we might have one. So clock is ticking, whatever happens with the Liberation Day tariffs. Clearly Trump likes tariffs and he the ability, I think, through the various laws to levy them on industries like steel and aluminum. And now we're up to 50% on all imports. I'm really curious about that, because that is a number that seems much more fixed. My immediate thought is home builders. So much of the cost of building a home is steel and aluminum. When those prices go up, the overall cost of a home goes up. There's so much pressure on home sales already. I'm sure this just adds fuel to the fire and does nothing to loosen up the frozen real estate market. But what do you think when you.
- [10:24]
Caitlin Peterson
Spend twice as much on rebar or ductwork and kind of the unsexy stuff that you don't see that's kind of inside your house, that's probably coming out of your decorating budget, you know, And I think the costs that slowly chip away at the cash that you hope homeowners have left over to spend furnishing their homes is where, you know, our designer audience is going to feel the biggest crunch.
- [10:46]
Fred Nicholaus
I know it's always like, well, why can't we afford to buy new poles? It's because we insert a giant beam in the middle of the house that no one can see that allows it to not slide down the hill. So that's why you can't have nice pillows. Anyway, we will stay tuned and talk about tariffs next week. I'm sure. But in the meantime, let's move on to more Charles Cohen drama. This time it's in Houston. Last week, the Real Deal reported that the decorative Center Houston was headed for foreclosure if Cohen didn't work out a deal with his lenders by June 3rd. Shall we do a spoiler and say whether it happened or not? Was it foreclosed?
- [11:18]
Caitlin Peterson
That was yesterday.
- [11:19]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, that was yesterday's recording. It did not happen, at least to the best of my knowledge. I spent all morning digging through government websites and talking to people who track Houston foreclosures. It apparently did not happen. So it is my belief that Cohen still owns the decorative center in Houston, but certainly this is another design center in some kind of flux or some kind of lending issue belonging to Charles Cohen. So more fuel for that fire.
- [11:45]
Caitlin Peterson
It's interesting to watch that empire sort of slowly get sliced apart. I know Cohen Brothers has been such a force in the design industry, as you guys have talked about here, too, for so long. Even if this foreclosure didn't happen yet, it's kind of interesting to see lenders really starting to pick apart, like, all of the holdings that he's got.
- [12:06]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I know it's tough. We only have so much time on the Thursday show, and there's a lot of Charles Cohen drama. I'm sure listeners will remember that last November, he lost control of the Dakota because he was being sued by this company called Fortress, which loaned him hundreds of millions of dollars, which he didn't pay back. That drama is still ongoing. He still owes Fortress money. They're still trying to claw it back, apparently. Know, Fortress, I don't think is involved with the decorative center in Houston, but there was this company called Ladder Capital Financing. They may have sold the loan to other people, but essentially someone loaned him $50 million in 2014. And apparently, allegedly, Cohen wasn't making payments, probably because he was tied up with a bunch of other drama. And so they moved to foreclose the building. Now, this probably, my guess, would be some sort of negotiating tactic to let Cohen know that they were serious. Now, you have to imagine, like, if this foreclosure auction did go through, it would be at, like, you know, a convention center auctioned off next to, like, a SHACK that's worth $10,000. Like, you know, the decorative center Houston's worth, like, $54 million. Like, it would be very weird if it was like, that was the final chapter. If it just went on the block there. We don't know what's going to happen. Next, it's possible he'll be able to pay back this loan. We don't really know anything about it, but it seems, you know, every day that goes by it seems like, okay, well, he might lose the decorative center in Houston. And then, you know, that leaves, of course, only the PDC and the Design center in New York, the D and D building. And then it's kind of like, is Charles Cohen one of the biggest industry landlords anymore? I don't know. That's speculating a little far afield. But every, every day that goes by, it seems more and more likely that that might happen.
- [13:34]
Caitlin Peterson
I think, you know, for the tenants in all of those buildings, there becomes, you know, even greater uncertainty. I think certainly there have been in recent years complaints about like, lack of funds spent on maintenance, lack of funds spent on upkeep, lack of funds spent on amenities. You know, it's hard to deal with when there's not toilet paper in the bathroom on your floor. However, the greater uncertainty of who becomes our new landlord. Do they still care if this building is filled with design businesses? Do they want my business to succeed here and do I have a long term home here alongside, you know, businesses that are beneficial to me, you know, to be next to? I think those bigger existential questions have to be weighing quite heavy on the folks who have leases in all of these remaining Cohen buildings.
- [14:20]
Fred Nicholaus
Now we should say a little bit of late. Breaking news. We found out just before we started recording that actually there is a new boss in town at the Dakota in Florida. Apparently Jamestown Co, owners of the Boston Design center, are taking over leasing and admin for the Dakota in partnership with Fortress, the company that now owns it, which is, you know, and they announced an investment in the property. It does seem like they want to keep it as a design center, which certainly will be welcome news for everyone there. What was your read on that news?
- [14:48]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, I've been talking to the company that has been doing the operating at Dakota and I believe they still will continue to do so even amid this deal. And they had been really excited when I talked to them a couple months ago about, about the investments that Fortress was making in their building. You know, they said we have a flower budget again so that we can make this, make this a welcoming place to be in. We have music in the halls again. You know, we've reopened the cafe. They were really excited about these infrastructure improvements that can sound pretty insignificant on their face, but that really dramatically transform your experience of wanting to go to and then stay in a design center. Once you're there wanting to get work done there instead of just breezing in and out. And so if this is sort of a sign of continued management and investment on Fortress's part, you know, to really keep things going, revitalize the building, bring in new tenants, you know, that seems like great news. You know, this has definitely been a building to watch in terms of, like, Fortress did not have a lot of time, I believe, to put a plan in place. There are tenants with leases that are expiring. They wanted to kind of roll them back in and make sure they were going to stay in the building. South Florida already has a lot of. Of big and, you know, significant brands who are in other big design centers, but who have defected to something called the South Florida Design Park. And so, you know, I think they had real competition literally right across the highway and had to put something in motion here if they were going to really keep some of their flagship tenants. So it's interesting to see that this is the route they're going and that they're going to stick it out.
- [16:22]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, I had assumed they would turn it into, like, I don't know, like a bitcoin data mining center. Like, I had no idea what was coming. But I'm delighted and surprised to find out that they're sticking with the design center and that they have toilet paper, flowers, and music. Those are all very important elements for a successful design center. Well, let's leave that there and move on to Williams Sonoma, which has made an acquisition, a surprising one.
- [16:45]
Caitlin Peterson
Absolutely. So just a few months after college decor company Dormify filed for bankruptcy last year, the brand's intellectual property has now been purchased by William Sonoma. Fred, did you see this one coming?
- [16:57]
Fred Nicholaus
I did not see this one coming, funnily enough. Little indulgent trip down memory lane. One of the very first articles I wrote for Business of Home was about dorm. So if you want to go back into the archive and find out young Fred's thoughts on Dormify, you can dig that up.
- [17:11]
Caitlin Peterson
I believe he reported at the time on the fact that Sherpa everywhere was the top trend for teens that year.
- [17:17]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, one of my classic observations. But it was, you know, I was actually reporting on the fact that American Eagle Outfitters had made kind of like an investment in them, like, 3.5 million. You know, at the time, it made a lot of sense. You know, dorms are a hot market, which we'll talk about in a little bit. And they were selling a lot of American Eagle stuff. So it was kind of a fun little story. But here we are seven years later. Now, what most of the news coverage of this acquisition does not cover for some reason, is the fact that Dormify had gone bankrupt. They're pitching it as like, oh, William Sonoma is acquiring Dormify. But just six, seven, eight months ago, Dormify was basically out of money. So I think that's sort of the backdrop of the story that we really need to talk about. They were going nowhere fast, and I think Williams Sonoma bought this company because they were able to get it on the cheap. However, that being said, it's still surprising. William Sonoma doesn't really buy companies. I think the last company they bought was Rejuvenation, I want to say. But everyone wants to sell to Williams Sonoma. Everyone thinks, oh, something I'm going to sell to Williams Sonoma. But they just don't have a habit of this. So this is interesting.
- [18:16]
Caitlin Peterson
I was looking at Dormify's bankruptcy, and I think one of the interesting things about it is that its top unsecured creditors were FedEx, but also like Google, Meta Snap. It looks like a lot of what the business was struggling with was that same thing that a lot of e commerce businesses came up against, which is just that it costs a lot to market your business and find shoppers on the Internet. You know, I feel like 2023, 2024, we said goodbye to a lot of E commerce businesses that were sort of up against the same headwinds.
- [18:45]
Fred Nicholaus
I mean, yeah, we just talked about Berk Decor a couple weeks ago. Same thing, very different paths out. But sure, but, but yeah, same problems. It became a lot harder to sell home stuff online for a variety of reasons.
- [18:57]
Caitlin Peterson
So it's interesting that Williams Sonoma sees opportunity in the intellectual property, you know, and that their business model can. Can adjust a little account for that.
- [19:05]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, that's what's interesting here. So this isn't like a full acquisition. They just bought the brand name and the ip, which is very common in these situations. They don't obviously don't want to buy all the debt. It was interesting. I was digging through the bankruptcy filings too, and I noticed that this wasn't really reported widely either. But apparently William Sonoma offered, you know, at least in the offer letter, they offered a million dollars for. For all the ip. Is that a low ball? Is that a high offer? What was your reaction to that number?
- [19:29]
Caitlin Peterson
First I thought it was. Was low, then I thought it was high. No.
- [19:34]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, it's hard because they're buying like an Instagram account. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:38]
Caitlin Peterson
You know, one of the interesting things to me about Dormify is that you don't keep your customer for very long. I worked at a bridal magazine early in my career where they sort of fessed up to the fact that you could run the exact same article every three years because your audience wasn't the same anymore. Like, in some ways, Dormify has the same challenge of having to of kind of re find an audience, recapture that attention.
- [20:01]
Fred Nicholaus
No, it's a real challenge. It's a real challenge. But I think the thing about it is that it's very lucrative because if you get in with a consumer, or let's just say a person, when they're out there in their college dorm, you develop like a brand affinity really early on. It's like the sheets that you buy for your dorm or the pillows or whatever, you're like, oh, that's the place where you go to get that stuff. And then when you get your first apartment, you're like, oh, I guess I like those. So I'll go back to that brand. So there really is a power in reaching somebody at that phase of life. And I'm guessing that's why Williams and Oma is doing this, is because they don't have anything that fits that demographic. They have Pottery Barn kids, they have Pottery Barn teen. They have, of course, stuff for when you get old and you actually have money to spend on your home, but they don't have anything for that sort of crucial 18 to 21 age. And I'm guessing that if it's a feeder into all your other barns. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. Interesting deal. Shall we move on to Midwestern design? I think so. This week, boh's managing editor, Haley Chouinard, wrote about the debut of a new design gallery in Minneapolis where interior designer Victoria Sass aims to highlight regional talent. This was a fun one. What'd you make of it?
- [21:07]
Caitlin Peterson
I love this story so much. And, you know, I've just been such a longtime admirer of Victoria Sass. She's one of my favorite interviews. She is creating a gallery space really adjacent to her design firm in Minneapolis to spotlight talent from the region in a really surprising and interesting way.
- [21:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, it's interesting because, of course, you know, many designers start, you know, a shop or a studio, and that's like a. Become an increasingly common play. But at least my read on the article is that she wants this to be like a gallery. Like it's like for collectible design. One of the co founders of Apparatus is one of the first People showing. And so, you know, this is, it's arts here. It's more about crafts, it's more about artisans than, you know, hey, here's my shop with my upholstery. Come check it out. Right?
- [21:50]
Caitlin Peterson
Absolutely. I mean, this is truly a gallery style exhibition. You know, it has a start date, it has an end date, it has a point of view. You know, Jeremy Anderson, the co founder of Apparatus, he's been working as a ceramist on his own for the last five years, but he's from Minnesota, so he's, you know, he's based in New York now, but he's got those Midwestern roots. It's a really good first exhibition. But I think interestingly, maybe her bigger goal is also to export this idea that Midwestern design is good and to really start to be taken more seriously by the powers that be in the design industry.
- [22:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, now you occupy a very interesting place here because you are both from the Midwest, originally from the Chicagoland area, but you also are a power that. Power that be. Powers that be. I guess I'm just curious, like you've talked about this before about sort of like, you know, finding common cause with Midwestern designers and understanding the kind of psychological baggage and advantages that come from that. I'm wondering if you could just talk about that a little bit also.
- [22:45]
Caitlin Peterson
I'm from Chicago, but I was also born in Kansas, so I'm like double, double doubling down on the Midwest here. And I think you're told a lot more often in the Midwest, and this is a gross generalization, but I think you're told more often that creative careers aren't available to you or you're told that you're going to have to move away to be successful as a creative. You know, I think there's a reason that New York and LA are kind of hotbeds of, you know, art communities, but also of sort of the art that we all kind of culturally pay the most attention to. If you think about where you're going to tap into someone's creative spirit, like, it's usually not St. Louis. And so I think what Victoria is doing here saying, you know, like, come to Minneapolis, I'm going to show you the best. But also I'm going to talk about why what we're doing here matters and why saying, you know, there's inspiration to be found here, there's amazing work happening here.
- [23:33]
Fred Nicholaus
There's also a lot of, I mean, there's design stuff in Minneapolis in particular, you know, Blue Dot, room and Board, Hennepin Made Cambria. Now, those are all very different companies. Cambria and Hennepin in particular are very different companies. But, you know, there's a lot of, like, good design stuff in Minneapolis in particular, so it doesn't surprise me that it's coming from there.
- [23:49]
Caitlin Peterson
One of the interesting things for me, you know, I worked on the 50 States Project for BOH for five years, and it really sent me out looking for designers across the country in a much more methodical way. And one of the most amazing things to me, maybe one of the most shocking things that I discovered about myself was how surprised I was when I found great design in the Midwest. I think there was an internalized, like.
- [24:12]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes, Chicago has a Midwestern.
- [24:14]
Caitlin Peterson
Yes, I know. But, like, you know, I think, you know, that Chicago has a bunch of incredible designers, but, you know, Mallory Robbins and Elizabeth Bennett of Cobel & Co. Run one of my favorite design businesses in the industry out of Kansas City. Anissa Zajak, Whitney Parkinson, Heidi Woodman, Tiffany Skilling are all designers I interviewed for the series from Indiana. You know, there are pockets of these communities all over the country, including the Midwest, that are doing extraordinary design, where they are investing in design, I think investing differently often than maybe coastal communities, but in a meaningful way. And I think to tap into that with a gallery to make Midwestern design more collectible just makes so much sense.
- [24:58]
Fred Nicholaus
All right, well, let's leave the Midwest behind for the time being and head.
- [25:01]
Caitlin Peterson
Over to Zillow, where I'm still spending a lot of time in the Midwest. For the Washington Post last week, Rachel Kurzias explored how online real estate listing platforms are now a major source of gossip and entertainment for casual viewers. I am so guilty of this. What about you, Fred?
- [25:17]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, same. It's kind of funny. I realized the other day that actually the social, quote, unquote, social networks I spend the most time on now are Facebook, Marketplace, and Zillow. Oh, my God.
- [25:26]
Caitlin Peterson
Same. Well, there was a line in this story that really captured the essence of what it is about for me. It said it was talking about, you know, someone that Rachel had interviewed, and it said she can try on all of the lives she could have had or still might have without ever leaving her couch.
- [25:40]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, no, 100%. And. And the numbers in this story really jumped out at me. It was, you know, Zillow says it saw 2.4 billion site visits in the first quarter of 2025. Now, that's obviously a lot, but compare that to the fact that we're in our worst housing market of the last 30 years, like, there it was, only 4 million homes were sold in 2024. The entirety of 2024. You know, so it's just, it's crazy how much more of these sites get used than just for their intended purpose. Which is, which is fascinating. And there's a lot of knock on effects of that, of course.
- [26:09]
Caitlin Peterson
I mean, I thought it was really interesting. The article really explored these real estate listings as sort of like social intelligence. And also that they've changed the way we talk to each other about money. That, you know, because you can Google your neighbor's house and know what they bought it for, that maybe it's less gauche to say, hey, what'd you buy your house for? Or that people are kind of more frank in their conversations about money and real estate than maybe they ever were before. There's no secrets anymore.
- [26:34]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I think that's totally true. And I think that trickles over to the design industry as well. Like, I mean, of course, designers are on Zillow a lot. I'm sure there's a lot of, like, you know, detective work that goes into, oh, like, where's this project? Let's look. Let's look at what it looked like on Zillow.
- [26:47]
Caitlin Peterson
What'd they buy the house for?
- [26:49]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. I mean, there's so much information you can get out of. I mean, you know, to be clear, Zillow's zestimates are not always accurate, but you can get a lot of information out of the ballpark. You can also see what it looks like. There's a, you know, there's a certain kind of voyeurism that, that everyone likes about that. So I think this is definitely like a sort of secret tool for designers. But it also, it's interesting. I really feel like, because it's viewed by so many people, it's maybe accurate to say that Zillow, like, informs people's taste in interior design as much as Instagram once did. I don't know, is that too strong of a take? Too hot of a take? What do you think?
- [27:18]
Caitlin Peterson
I don't know. I think it's interesting. I wonder what you're searching for, because I. No, truly, because I think actually I have a very specific Zillow filter on right now, and I've encountered a lot more artificial, like staging, like the rendering as staging in my searches. I'm also looking for a lot of, like, pre1850s, like, clapboard, whatever, that seemed to apparently just be empty. And so I'm not seeing the previous homeowner's taste. But I see your point. And I think every time you see one of those old crumbly houses with like, that weird giant massage chair in it, I'm kind of of like, oh, that's interesting. Who lived here?
- [27:55]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, I think it's part of the mix. You know what I mean? I think one of the things is Instagram is so artificial now because everyone's like, my friends aren't seeing this. I'm not going to post my real life. There's a lot of AIs, a lot of recommended influencer content, and designers now have to, like, dance and jump and, you know, do weird tricks to get people's attention. So there's less like, simply, hey, here's a beautiful home. Whereas I think people are directly engaging with homes on Zillow because they're in the sort of mindset, I'm here to look at homes. So I think they sort of pick up the taste, whether they're going to Zillow for taste or not.
- [28:27]
Caitlin Peterson
I spend a lot more time being like, oh, I would never on Zillow, to be very honest.
- [28:31]
Fred Nicholaus
That helps. Yeah, that helps you refine.
- [28:33]
Caitlin Peterson
That's true. I think it's interesting, too. The article touches on the idea that part of the reason so many of us love Zillow is that you're sort of obsessing over this thing you can't have. And I think that ties into the housing market, too, which I think for many right now is sort of, in a word, like depressing, you know, and maybe there's a sense of escapism or this sense of what if that allows you to kind of pretend you could have a different life, pretend your bank account looked different, pretend the housing market wasn't insane, and imagine different ways of living?
- [29:05]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, imagine that recliner was mine.
- [29:07]
Caitlin Peterson
Well, yeah.
- [29:08]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. All right, well, let's leave it there. That's all we got for the news, but there's plenty more to check on on businessofhome.com including the latest new hires and Sean Lowe's advice on taking time away from your design business. Business. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.
- [29:26]
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- [30:09]
Fred Nicholaus
And we're back. We're getting near to the end of the show here, but before we go, we like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry. This is that might have caught our eye. Caitlin, what caught your eye this week?
- [30:18]
Caitlin Peterson
I got the latest issue of House Beautiful in the mail and just was really captivated. One it's the color issue. It's got this great Ombre House Beautiful right on the COVID that looks pretty, pretty great. I think that might be the first ever ombre logo I've seen on big consumer magazine. The projects inside were beautiful, but also just it includes the 2025 Next Wave Glass and it's always a classic. Exciting to see who House Beautiful's editors have tapped as sort of the up and comers of the industry. I was really excited to see a bunch of Midwesterners in there, also a bunch of friends at Business of Home. So it's a great issue. It's just a great way to celebrate designers who are going to be sort of the next big names in the industry. And just a big congratulations to all of them.
- [31:01]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, for sure. I love the COVID I liked Elle Decor's cover as well, too. Some good, good Hearst covers this this month.
- [31:07]
Caitlin Peterson
I love when that happens. Fred, what caught your eye this week?
- [31:10]
Fred Nicholaus
A couple things. Kravit caught my eye. They've been just collaborating with everybody left and right. There was this big Pottery Barn collaboration a while back. They did something with a company called Stanton. Then they did a collaboration with Benchmade Modern, the D2C furniture company. I just feel like I've been seeing their name out, you know, in front of consumers a lot. More recently, these plans might have been put in place before the big acquisition by the PE company, but I do think it's like, look, they want to do more business and, you know, being in bed with these consumer companies is a good way to do it. So it's just, you know, I've always felt like Kravit is a company that only people in the know know about, but I don't think that'll be true for forever. So that was interesting. I also saw that Made in Home is doing kind of like a rebrand or a refresh one of a We spoke to the founder Nidhi Kapoor a long time ago on the Business of Home podcast, and it's been, you know, a lot of direct to consumer companies have not really stood the test of time, but Maidenhome has. It's still around, it's still chugging and it's got a cool new look that seems very kind of artisan focused. So I thought that was interesting and hopefully we can get her on the podcast to talk all about it in not too distant future.
- [32:12]
Caitlin Peterson
That was an early, early episode, like one of the first 10, right?
- [32:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, there's a lot of sirens in the background, a lot of weird dog noises. The audio's bad. I think we have a few sirens on this episode, too, so I won't get too cocky. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thank you so much for listening. If you if you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus. That's me and Caroline Burke. And edited by Michael Castaneda. Once again, I'm Fred Nicholaus in for Dennis Scully. He'll be back next week. In the meantime, have a great weekend and we will see you on Monday.