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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Zoë Feldman is tackling the small-project dilemma. Plus: Should designers care about tariffs?
01:04:33
BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus and host Dennis Scully discuss the biggest news in the industry. Later, designer Zoë Feldman joins the show to discuss her new venture for tackling smaller projects.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on I'll be talking to designer Zoe Feldman about solving the small project dilemma. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including the latest on tariffs, Instagram going vertical, and to look at the rising trend of cannabis related decor. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:34]
Fred Nicholas
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:36]
Dennis Scully
Great. How you doing?
- [00:37]
Fred Nicholas
Doing good. I've been out and about this week, hitting the social scene pretty hard.
- [00:41]
Dennis Scully
Yes, I saw that you at the Young Collector's Night at the winter show.
- [00:45]
Fred Nicholas
Tell me every year that I get the invite to the Young Collectors Night. I take solace in the fact that I've never been a collector but I'm still technically, I guess, young maybe, I don't know, question mark. It's a really fun party if you've never been here in New York. The Winter Antique show is a great show and they throw this terribly glamor of beautiful, fascinating people dressed to the nines wandering around these beautiful antiques. And I'm there taking blurry iPhone photos of it all looking schlubby as ever. But it was a great show. Did you make it to the winter show this year, Dennis?
- [01:18]
Dennis Scully
I didn't. I was actually speaking with Holly Hunt at the New York School of Interior Design that night, so I wasn't able to attend. But I love the picture that you shared of your coat check ticket. That was important and obviously you took a lot away from the show.
- [01:31]
Fred Nicholas
A party photographer. I am not any interesting Holly isms come out of your conversation with her. I know Holly Hunt is very much known for her little kind of like Maxims. Did she quote any new ones to you in your conversation?
- [01:42]
Dennis Scully
There's always something to be learned from Holly Hunt and I love that she shared the fact that through various financial ups and downs that one of the things that saw her through actually was her Norwegian astrologer who she paid a great deal of attention to and who gave her tremendously good guidance and counsel over the years.
- [02:04]
Fred Nicholas
We'll have to get him for the show.
- [02:06]
Dennis Scully
There are a lot of requests for Norwegian astrologers coming off of that talk. So always something to be learned from Holly Hunt. She's really one of the giants of.
- [02:14]
Fred Nicholas
Our industry and there's always something to be learned from Ben Pentreath as well, the guest on Monday's episode. Really fascinating in depth conversation that spanned a lot of ground. What'd you make of it, Dennis?
- [02:25]
Dennis Scully
So Much to be learned. And as you and I know, a conversation that was actually much longer than that show ended up being. One day we'll have to release the director's cut of the Ben Pentrief interview because it's fascinating, but his work with then Prince Charles, now the King of England, is so interesting on the town of Poundbury. But also his interiors work is fascinating and his opinions and insights on English design. But also he had some feedback about photography in interiors as well. Right.
- [03:02]
Fred Nicholas
Some hot takes. Yeah. I am going to wait for it. Say that this English designer was charming because they all are. But he also is very unafraid to kind of sort of poke the bear a little bit and just give his real opinion. And I think he was talking about how he thinks that photography is not as complicated as people make it. And he wants designers to photograph their projects more naturally and not sort of twist and contort their layouts and decor just to make the photo look good. I'm not sure that people will be following him in droves down that pathway, but I think it was a really interesting take. And I think because he does so many things, he's got a retail operation, he works with the royal family, he does design projects. He really has kind of like an insider's outsider perspective on everything and just a lot of really interesting insight around interior design. It was a two hour conversation. We narrowed it down to about an hour and change, but we easily could have put out a full hour conversation with the rest of it and it would have been equally fascinating. It's great to have him on the show. I hope we get him back again soon.
- [04:02]
Dennis Scully
He's endlessly fascinating. He's always fun to talk to. He's incredibly smart and interestingly, he's not doing a lot of work in the States yet. But that, that will change once he experiences the business of home bump.
- [04:15]
Fred Nicholas
He hates money. He hates money that.
- [04:18]
Dennis Scully
Well, the opportunity is here for him. So I wish him luck with all of it and we look forward to talking with him again soon. In the meantime, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Jaipur Living. At Jaipur Living, it's always been about more than rugs. Founded in 1978, Jaipor Living began with a bold to empower women artisans in rural India, giving them dignity, independence and a chance to thrive. Today, they partner with over 40,000 skilled artisans, 85% of whom are women, to create breathtaking handmade rugs that bring texture and soul into your home. When you choose Jaipur Living, you're not just buying a rug, you're helping transform communities. Visit JaiporLiving.com to see the beauty of their work and their journey. This podcast is also sponsored by Hector Finch Lighting, who've been selling British manufactured decorative lighting to the design community worldwide for more than 30 years. Hector Finch is known for their clean lines, impeccable craftsmanship and a less is more philosophy. Working with the highest quality European techniques and materials, including mouth blown glass, hand thrown ceramics and alabaster, Hector Finch produces a high specification product much loved by designers around the world. Hector Finch is represented in all major markets in North America and their dedicated team is on hand to discuss their many custom options. You can count on Hector Finch to deliver friendly personal service tailored to the needs of your clients. To learn more, visit hectorfinch.com and follow hectorfinchlighting on Instagram. And we're back. First up, we're gonna get into this week's feature. So it's been a confusing week for those following the news of Trump's tariffs on Canada, Mexico and China, which seemed to be coming full force on Monday before a series of deals changed the picture. In this week's feature, Fred, you broke down why this matters for the industry and what designers need to know. So tell us, Fred, what do we need to know?
- [06:47]
Fred Nicholas
It wouldn't be a Wednesday if there wasn't 2,000 words from me on tariffs. Yeah, I mean, this is a really interesting one and we should just, you know, break the fourth wall a little bit and say that, like, this story has been changing by the day, by the hour, and I'm a little bit concerned that everything we say in this taping on is going to be invalid by the time this episode goes out on Thursday morning. Because this has been a. I've got a serious case of whiplash. I don't know about you, Dennis.
- [07:13]
Dennis Scully
Well, the whole weekend I'm thinking, how are Fred and I going to handle this? Where are we going to go with this? And then as you say, every time, it seemed like I knew exactly what we were going to be talking about. No, no, we're not exactly. Yeah.
- [07:25]
Fred Nicholas
So a little bit of background here and there's a lot of twists and turns. I'll try and keep this as short as possible. So obviously, on the campaign trail, most listeners will know that President Trump talked a lot about tariffs. Originally, there was going to be a big tariff on goods coming out of China, but after he got elected, suddenly there was this idea that we were actually going to put tariffs on Canada and Mexico as well as China. The thing was, though, that most people didn't really think that would actually happen. There wasn't this clear reason to do it. And so I think that the general perception among people I spoke to is that this is just sort of like a bargaining chip and it's just going to get a conversation going, but we're never actually going to see tariffs on Canada and Mexico. So that was sort of the state of play. Then over the weekend, suddenly news broke that, no, actually they are going to put the tariffs in place. 25% on Canada, Mexico, and they're going to come out on Tuesday. So just three days away and the world exploded. Suddenly, this was all over the news. The stock market futures tanked. I was hard at work on a story about what Canadian tariffs would mean for the home building industry. And that was sort of this day to play Monday morning. But then here's twist number two. By Monday afternoon, it was announced that Canada and Mexico had worked out a deal with Trump and the tariffs were off at least for 30 days. So kind of, as you were, very back and forth. Now, of course, the other thing is the tariffs are still on for China. The 10% tariff is still technically levied on China. At least it is as of our recording time. Who knows about tomorrow? But it has been certainly a very crazy week in the world of tariffs.
- [08:55]
Dennis Scully
And how much do you think that matters? So, yes, the tariffs on China still in place, previous tariffs on China from the last time that Trump was in office. So, I mean, how big an impact do you sense in talking with the people that you did? How big an impact is that likely to have?
- [09:14]
Fred Nicholas
Well, it's really interesting, right, because I think 25% on goods from Mexico and Canada would have made a huge difference. I mean, you had presidents of trade groups writing letters to Trump saying, please, this is gonna tank housing. This is gonna kill the economy. Justin Trudeau's on t going to go after Kentucky whiskey. That absolutely would have massively disrupted the global economy.
- [09:36]
Dennis Scully
That's when it hit home for me, Fred. And I appreciate you mentioning the Kentucky bourbon, because that's when it got serious.
- [09:42]
Fred Nicholas
Exactly, exactly. But 10% on China is a little bit more of a mixed bag. I spent the week talking to a lot of people who import home goods from China, and a lot of home goods are imported from China. Everything from upholstery, certainly a lot of lighting. The majority of lighting comes from China, textiles, you name it. You know, presumably a 10% tariff would be a huge Deal, you know, on top of the tariffs that were already put in place. But I kind of got, I don't know, there was a lot of, you know, eh, kind of 10%. Who really cares from people, I don't know. Did you talk to people about this as well, Dennis?
- [10:16]
Dennis Scully
I did. And as you pointed out in the article and what came up in conversations that I had with people, what was interesting was how much this matters less today than it might have a few years ago because there's been such a dramatic shift away from China. And so many companies, whether they got the message from the previous administration or they've just been seeing what's been going on in China in general, have high tailed it to other places of production. And so I think the impact is far less than it would have been.
- [10:50]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, completely agreed. And in some cases, just to be clear, in some cases it's just Chinese factories opening up an operation in Vietnam. So it's the same company, it's just headquartered in a different country. In some cases production moved to Mexico. But yeah, there has been a lot of movement away from China. I also think, you know what, whenever there's a tariff, in this case it's 10% on goods that you import into the U.S. the pain tends to get split across the supply chain. Factories, these huge factories that employ thousands of people in some cases are often willing to swallow 5% with their US customers just to keep the business going. There's a lot of speculation that China devalues its currency to make its goods cheaper. All of those little levers that people can pull make a 10% certainly annoying, but not as catastrophic as it might have been years ago. Now on the other hand, if you move into smaller companies, like I spoke to, or I rather emailed with a woman who owns a company called Crow Canyon Home that does enamel tabletop and imports it from a factory in China. She was talking about how this actually would be hugely impactful because I think for a company that's a little bit smaller, doesn't have the resources just to up and move to a different country and has thinner margins, a 10% hike actually makes a big difference. She was talking about how she couldn't raise prices anymore, the market wouldn't accept it, so she would have to look at her business expenses. So it hits different people in different parts of the industry in different ways, I guess is the unsatisfying, complex answer to the question of do they matter?
- [12:16]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, so in the end do we feel that this is something that we need to keep as watchful an eye on as we have been, or do we feel as though this first round of tariff increases, which didn't really happen in terms of Canada and Mexico, do we feel like, oh, we don't have to worry about this as much? We see, as you said earlier, this was a great big fire drill. We all responded with panic. Truthfully, the stock market didn't really panic very much. Very small percentage move, and then it kind of rallied back by the end of the day. And that, to me, says maybe there's not a lot to worry about here.
- [12:54]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think, again, it depends on where you are in the supply chain and the value chain and who you are. It's hard to make a broad answer, but I spoke to one guy who does logistics sourcing for home brands, and he was talking about, like, look after Mexico and Canada seem so dramatic, and then it was immediately pulled back. The consensus is that what Trump is going to do is maybe threaten the EU with tariffs or any country with tariffs. There's going to be a big tempest in the teapot, but then there's going to be some compromise worked out that allows both presidents or administrations to declare some kind of victory, and then it's business as usual. So he really framed this as, like, after this, while it was disruptive and kind of crazy, we're not terribly worried about future tariffs. That being said, this does kind of. You never know. That's the thing about Trump. Even his fans and detractors alike agree that he's unpredictable. And saying that these tariffs don't matter at all is a little too simplistic. 10% does matter to some people. Future tariffs might matter to other people. A general climate of uncertainty does matter, and there's lots of moving pieces here. So I wouldn't want to say that this doesn't matter at all. It's just that certainly 25% on Canada, Mexico would have mattered a lot, and 10% on China, you know, which frankly, may be removed by the time this episode goes up, matters less.
- [14:09]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I think as you touched on earlier, had it been Canada and Mexico and 25% tariffs, that would have had a meaningful impact on the housing market, which I continue to believe is still the much bigger issue and concern in all of this, much bigger than the tariff worries. And Canada and Mexico are such important trading partners when it comes to the homebuilding industry, that would have had a much bigger impact, I believe, on the design world and the housing market in general. So I'm relieved that didn't happen. And I hope that it doesn't happen, because I think as we've talked about, when these tariff issues come up, we start to look at what would really be impacted. And Canada and Mexico, as I say, huge partners in the home building process. So hopefully this dies down and we can focus instead on a much bigger issue facing the design industry. Maybe Instagram going vertical, Fred like that's going to have far greater significance, right?
- [15:11]
Fred Nicholas
Exactly. Now we finally get to the real news here. In recent weeks, the platform changed its grid photo format, previously square, to a vertical presentation similar to another company that's been in the national Spotlight a lot, TikTok. In last week's feature, Boh managing editor Hayley Chouinard asked interior photographers how this could affect the way designers present their work going vertical. Dennis, how has your life changed?
- [15:35]
Dennis Scully
And I know it has tremendously, tremendously. I really feel a before and after effect in so many areas of my life. But I did think it was interesting in the article where the photographer, I think it was Brittany Ambridge, talked about, you do want to be mindful of taking a lot more of both kinds of shots now and have this at the ready. But I don't know if, if really this is going to change a lot. But TikTok continues to have a huge influence as Instagram continues to try and play catch up.
- [16:11]
Fred Nicholas
Yes, yes. Even though, as we've talked about several times, we don't know what the heck is going to happen with TikTok. It's another company that's wrapped up in the chaos of this transition of power. But anyway, yeah, I agree, this change, I think probably mostly just annoyed people because people spend a lot of time getting their grid to feel perfect and perfectly aligned. A lot of people had their squares lined up nicely. And of course, this change, as it was rolled out to more and more users, kind of annoyed people who were very perfectionist about their Instagram grid. So that is annoying, but it's not going to send anyone running to another platform just because of this. However, I do think that the broader shift on social media towards everything being vertically oriented has changed design photography in subtle ways. I researched articles about this. I think I spoke with Brittany and other photographers and they talk about how there really is this very different imperative when you show up on the set now, where it's like, okay, instead of just getting a few big horizontal hero shots for the magazine, you need that and you need a bunch of vertical stuff for Instagram and you need video for reels and you need this. So it definitely kind of like expands the scope of what project photography is supposed to be. Probably makes it more expensive because it takes up more of the photographer's time or makes it more crunched. And so I do think there are sort of subtle effects here that sort of play into broader narratives around the way that design photography has changed over the past two, three, four, five years.
- [17:33]
Dennis Scully
I feel like maybe we just need a big reflection fresh on how should we be setting up shots. And photography does play such an enormous role. I was talking to a designer just yesterday who just said, I mean, he's so conscious now of how it's going to look on Instagram that that's the most important lens that he looks through.
- [17:53]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah. And I mean, the fact that Instagram is constantly changing makes that very difficult because how it looks on Instagram may be different in six months, which creates a lot of instability. We've had this conversation before, but I want to quickly have it again, is that everyone is just so fed up with the constant shifts of the way Instagram's algorithm works. I think they're more annoyed really about the way that they're seen or not seen by their followers than they are about the orientation of their images. But there's just so much animosity towards Instagram right now among the design community. I think the problem is in as much as people are definitely frustrated, but there's just no clear place to go. There's little experiments, substack, blue sky, whatever. But I don't feel like you started a design business, you're still starting an Instagram page first.
- [18:39]
Dennis Scully
I agree. I think we've talked about Instagram fatigue and sometimes you'll see online the petition to get everyone off Instagram and come off the meta platforms. Right. And the rebels are gathering. But it's not unlike the Apple ecosystem. It's like, where are you going to go? What's the better alternative? There isn't a place for everybody to gather. And if you look at the shares of meta, they are at or near all time highs. They're not worried about it. And you just see a captive audience that has nowhere to go.
- [19:17]
Fred Nicholas
I think they should just kind of go like full evil, chaotic and just. Well, now Instagram photos are horizontal and really thin. Okay. Now they're ovals and just see if they can keep people on because I'm sick of all this. I think we need to move on anyway. I agree, we're stuck. Let's see you there. See you on the gram.
- [19:36]
Dennis Scully
I think designers feel the same way, but Again, nowhere to go. Next up, we're going to take a look at some of the latest news from the trade Fred, starting with Hooker Furnishings, which has a new designer program.
- [19:47]
Fred Nicholas
Yes. Last month, the brand launched a new design support team dedicated to providing assistance exclusively to trade clients, AKA designers. Certainly Hooker is not the only company in the world to do that. I'm sure many of the sponsors of this podcast have lovely trade programs of their own that work directly with designers, but this kind of caught my eye just because we've been talking a lot in recent months and years about how high point brands like Hooker, who do a lot of business to retail stores, they are realizing, if they didn't already realize it before, that they need to figure out a way to work effectively with designers. They're making moves both big and small to try and make that happen. This just felt of a piece with that bigger trend to me.
- [20:26]
Dennis Scully
I completely agree, and I think Hooker is a great example of a company that is eager to make this transition, but could benefit from a great deal of feedback from designers, both in terms of their process and how to work with designers. But also, I'm guessing, stylistically, designers are going to have a lot to say, and I think it could be a huge benefit for Hooker. So I say good for them. Talk to as many designers as you can, get as much feedback as you can. Designers are usually pretty eager to share some feedback, and I think in this case, it could be hugely beneficial. And when you go to Point and you see how enormous Hooker is, that whole floor in that building, there's a lot of product. And I think many designers don't have Hooker really on their radar. And so this is a step towards changing that.
- [21:22]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, and I mean, we should also mention that Hooker hired Caroline Hippel from Norwalk Furniture relatively recently, and she's someone who definitely has cachet with designers and a connection to the design community, which I think probably helps in this regard. And I think that, you know, a little spoiler. We're actually working on a feature right now about, like, trade programs. What's changed, what designers really want. And a little preview is that, like, they want people, you know, I think it's like, you know, you certainly want, like, a discount. Like, that's important. You want a good pricing. You want, like, competitive pricing. But I think that, like, some brands kind of mistake it of just, we got to get the percent. We got to get it to be 32% versus 38. And it's like if you have somebody at the company who knows your name, Knows how your business works, will pick up the phone when you call. That matters as much, if not more than a couple percentage points on the margin. Anyway, interesting little development. What's next in the trade?
- [22:11]
Dennis Scully
Next up is an acquisition from Dadar. A few weeks ago, the fabric and wool covering house acquired the parent company of Maria Flora, which supplies outdoor and performance textiles to furniture brands. It's interesting because it's Dadar's first acquisition. And. And when we just spent some time with Dadar in Paris, they, interestingly enough, started their whole presentation by talking about what a great year they had just had and how they were up 10% to last year and how they had done 73 million euros in sales. And so they were feeling expansive. And this acquisition, the first acquisition for them is an indication of them feeling like there's big opportunity for them.
- [22:57]
Fred Nicholas
Dadar is sort of at the super high end of the industry. Very fashiony, very luxurious textile company. They're not a company that's out there buying up affiliates left and right. It's interesting when they make a move like this, what it kind of speaks to me. Maria Flora specializes in outdoor and performance textiles. What this speaks to me is that even at that sort of tippy top, super high end of the industry, they want performance fabric. It's not just the guys selling retail sofas that you're supposed to spill a gallon of wine and drag the puppies onto. I think it's like, at every level of the market, performance fabrics have taken over. And I think that this is an indication of, like, that's the coin of the realm right now.
- [23:36]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I think to that point, Fred and I'll be curious to talk to Katarina about it. But to me, it also says focused on the US market. So I think if you want to be a big player in the US Market, you have to have an extensive outdoor offering. And I think that's, as you say, I just think that that's table stakes these days. And so I think it's a shrewd acquisition. Speaks to their focus on how much opportunity is waiting for them in the US And I think that that's where they see a lot of the big growth coming from in the years ahead.
- [24:12]
Fred Nicholas
Until they get that 25% tariff that lasts 24 hours, that'll learn them.
- [24:17]
Dennis Scully
Well, the EU is standing by, waiting to see what the tariffs are going to be, but we'll see. But let's talk about June Laloy up next, because they've teamed up with Heidi.
- [24:28]
Fred Nicholas
Callier, our friend, and podcast Alum Heidi Callier. Yes. The newly launch whole home brand, that's Juno Laloy, tapped Seattle designer Heidi Callier to design a new collection marking its first foray into designer collabs. And we should say that this is also probably Heidi's first or certainly one of Heidi's first big licensed collections. Though the word on the street is it will certainly not be the last. Dennis, you might have some inside intel there, but maybe we'll save that for a future episode. What'd you make of this?
- [24:55]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, I think this is so smart. I think Heidi is wildly popular and with good reason. A new entry, the AD100 recently, and a big name. And I also think that Leloy has been so smart about hitching their star to so many of these big name designers, and I think it's really helped to put their name on the map through all of these big relationships that they've got with Joanna Gaines and Amber Lewis and others. And so. So launching this new brand and bringing Heidi on board, who I think has such a huge following among consumers in addition to the design trade is a smart move. What do you think?
- [25:43]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah. And we should also say that Heidi was recently featured on this thing the Expert does where they list, I think the top 40 designers who get the most bookings on their platform, and Heidi was the most bookings for or the Pacific Northwest. And I think what that kind of speaks to, sort of interesting that these two news items are coming out at the same time, is that there's a lot of designers with a big Instagram following out there. Heidi definitely has that, but she also has people want to hire her, people want to take her advice and pay for it. I think that that demonstrates when these brands are looking for someone to collaborate with, it's not just somebody that has a social media following. It's someone who has a social media following. And the people who follow that person will spend money as part of their fandom of that designer. And I think Heidi has very much demonstrated that. I mean, the collection itself is also really nice. It exemplifies Heidi's very unique look. She has a unique aesthetic. So it's cool to see this, and I'm sure it'll probably be the first of many for both sides of this equation.
- [26:44]
Dennis Scully
I think this was a smart move, smart rollout. We'll continue to watch it, but now, Fred, we've got to move on because it's the hot topic of cannabis decor that we're gonna get into next. So you ready? Ready for the New York Times last week, Matt Yan wrote about how cannabis paraphernalia is entering the world of high end design, with brands now elevating smoking devices to the level of decorative objects.
- [27:09]
Fred Nicholas
Smoking devices.
- [27:12]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. Smoking devices. And the word bong and the word. Yeah. I mean, there were. Yeah, there's a lot of people just putting some smoking devices around and apparently people are feeling a lot freer and more open to talking about it and displaying it. Have you seen that, Fred?
- [27:33]
Fred Nicholas
I have seen it, but I should just let listeners know this entire including this item in this podcast is just an excuse to get Dennis to say the word bong. So I'm glad we've ticked that box and now we can move on. I mean, in all seriousness, on some level, this was a great article in the Times and there was a lot of really beautiful objects, but I think, like, this is not really a new story. I feel like right when I started the business of home in 2018 or 2019, there was someone pitching me this idea of like, look, there's a lot more acceptance of marijuana now. It's legal in many swaths of the country. It's not some taboo subject. People with great taste want to get high and they want to bring those two things together. There's all these articles about how dispensaries are, these very high design environments. And I don't think that this is really new. I mean, we were at Kips Bay last year and there was some stuff, right?
- [28:21]
Dennis Scully
Well, absolutely. I mean, I think in the, in the. And I can't remember whose room it was.
- [28:25]
Fred Nicholas
Workshop apd, wasn't it?
- [28:27]
Dennis Scully
Was that what it was? Okay, well, because there was Seth Rogen's. His brand houseplant. He, he made this ashtray that, that actually quite a few people wrote to me and said that they had specified in projects. But yeah, I agree that it's, it's definitely. People are much more comfortable talking about it. I, I don't know if I'm seeing overwhelming signs of it showing up on the pages of shelter magazines. Cannabis related paraphernalia, but, but a lot of designers spoke to the fact that they, their clients talk to them about it much more certainly than they did in the past.
- [29:06]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah, it's maybe not ending up on the COVID of ad, but it's like coming up in conversations. It's interesting though, because even though there is this broader social acceptance of it, I don't think there are these weird complications. I remember there was this one brand I wrote a profile on a few years ago called 40 Goods and the idea behind it was that it was lockable furniture where you could keep your stash. And it was high end and pretty nice furniture that was lockable where you kept your edibles. I think that one of the problems with it though that she encountered was that when it was advertised for that purpose, she kept getting delisted from e commerce website sites or Google wouldn't let her show ads because it was earmarked as drug paraphernalia, which you're not allowed to sell online. It's interesting though, even though there is this broader social acceptance, there's all these obstacles that companies who want to capitalize on that face and it still feels kind of like a gray market more than it does this thing that's really out in the open and accessible to all. I know you've had some of your own experience with furniture designed around this purpose.
- [30:09]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, back in the day when I was at Avery Boardman, the son of the founder of Avery Boardman, was a pretty big fan of marijuana, actually. And he loved this idea of furniture with little built in stash, secret places. And we may have spent quite a bit of time for a few weeks trying to design some furniture pieces that had lots of places for you to hide your stash. But as you say, how commercially viable was that product? I'm not sure. It might have just been ahead of its time. Maybe now if we had rolled that out, it would have been different. But you know, it's interesting, the issue around edibles because a lot of designers wrote in to me that funny enough even though, and I think it was Christy Rajavec out of Atlanta, said that in fact her client had the very pipe that was shown in the New York Times piece. And so yes, she was familiar with that. But Naz Nazawa, who said that because she's in San Francisco, she's done a lot of spaces to get high in for clients, but that so many of her clients really just prefer edibles. And so you're not necessarily having an ashtray out, but I think that a lot of people are feeling a lot more comfortable talking about their gummies of choice these days that they're taking.
- [31:27]
Fred Nicholas
Yeah. And it's funny you should mention like, you know, the commercial or the lack of commercial viability of furniture for this purpose because 40 goods very much transitioned out of being furniture for cannabis and Morenza just lockable for furniture, whatever you want to put in there. So I should check on her and see how she's doing. But.
- [31:44]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, as I say, it's clearly, it's an issue that people feel a lot more comfortable talking about, so maybe it will have a bigger impact in design. We'll see. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including an interview with supermodel Helena Christensen about her new role at BO Concept and a roundup of the latest showroom opening. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to hear about Hector Finch's plans for the Kips Bay Decorators Show House in Palm beach, which they're proud to sponsor this year. Visit the house Feb. 22 through March 16 and see their products installed in five rooms, the result of collaborating with designers throughout the house. House. If you're in town, be sure to also visit the Benjamin Peterson showroom at 1200 North Dixie Highway, Lake Worth, where you can see a wide range of fixtures from the Hector Finch Collection. To register for Kips Bay, visit kipsbaedecoratorshowhouse.org and to see the Hector Finch Collection online, visit hectorfinch.com this season, Jaipor Living introduces their new cozy collection of textured rug. Rugs bring warmth and style into the home with high, low depths, rich materials and designs that never go out of style. Whether you're curling up with hot cocoa or sprucing up your space for spring, start with the rug. Start with Jaipur Living. Visit JaipurLiving.com to join their trade program and become part of the Jaipur Living family. And now back to the show. And we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer Zoe Feldman. Zoe, so glad we are finally getting to have a conversation.
- [33:39]
Zoe Feldman
I know it's been years in the making.
- [33:41]
Dennis Scully
I know it has. And so I'm glad you've got this new initiative demi that you've been working on that we're going to talk about and tell people about, because I've got lots of questions for you. But let's start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your firm, where you are, what your what your firm size is, all that. Tell me.
- [34:01]
Zoe Feldman
Okay, so my firm is called Zoe Feldman Design, and we are primarily based in Washington, D.C. we have an office, a small office in New York as well. In the D.C. office, we're about 25, and then in New York it's three.
- [34:17]
Dennis Scully
Okay.
- [34:17]
Zoe Feldman
But we just hired another woman who's on the demi side of things in New York, so I guess it's now four.
- [34:22]
Dennis Scully
Okay.
- [34:23]
Zoe Feldman
And then we have a Couple of employees who work on Demi who are remote.
- [34:28]
Dennis Scully
So since we've mentioned Demi now several times, let's have you tell us what Demi is and what I'm. What I'm curious about is how long this has been in the works. And let's talk about what. What led up to this?
- [34:41]
Zoe Feldman
Okay. So I have been working in full service design for 20 years. Years. And during COVID my husband, who's in finance, my husband and I started a startup. We were manufacturing a chair. We were attempting to manufacture a chair.
- [34:57]
Dennis Scully
Got it. Because there weren't enough of those. There's no chairs.
- [34:59]
Zoe Feldman
So we're like, we need a chairs around.
- [35:01]
Dennis Scully
We need.
- [35:01]
Fred Nicholas
Okay.
- [35:02]
Zoe Feldman
I love that there's a hole in the market. Good for you. And so we raised our seed money. We learned a ton. We. We were working with these wonderful consultants who at some point, because of COVID my business is growing. Growing so big that they're like, this feels like you don't have. Why are you focusing on this random chair that has nothing to do with.
- [35:25]
Dennis Scully
You when you've got this great big interior design firm? Wait, what?
- [35:28]
Zoe Feldman
It was like, I had to pay someone a gazillion dollars to tell me that. But my husband Matt and I really learned how to work together. And I asked him if he would come on full time because my business is growing so big. And I, while wonderful at design and am not great when it comes to scaling businesses and understanding the financial component of things in a really deep way. And he agreed to come on as the CFO and president of the company. And so we did that. So then what happened is he started to evaluate the numbers. Well, the consultants were looking at it too. So Matt and the consultants are looking at it, and they're kind of like, whoa, there's all this income that's, you know, unrealized income that, you know that you can't take these clients because you've grown so big. And maybe you can't take a project. $300,000 or 600,000 DOL or these big numbers. So then Matt and I were kind of like, wait, should we, like, start up this, like, figure out how to, like, capture this income? Because I've always been a. Interested in growing businesses. I'm, like, obsessed with how to make things efficiency and how to do things better. And my brain just, like, naturally works that way. So it was like an exciting opportunity to look at the business differently. And then I also believe that good design should be more accessible.
- [36:44]
Dennis Scully
Sure.
- [36:44]
Zoe Feldman
I've often said, like, I look at Europe, where Regardless of their budgets, they all have an understanding of good design. It's not quite embedded in our culture in the same way. And so I thought, oh, this is interesting. Like, Instagram has shown people all this beauty and they want it. It's not just in the pages of these expressive, beautiful magazines. It's now kind of like, look, you can have this too. But then sort of like, how do we get this good design to them?
- [37:10]
Dennis Scully
Well, so let me ask you this, Zoe, before you go on. What was your husband and I gather, these consultants, what were they looking at that was showing them this missed business that you weren't taking on these projects that were merely a few hundred thousand dollars? And had you yourself consciously made the decision, oh, our firm today only takes on projects that are a million dollars or something. Had you articulated something that was a cutoff point or a level that your business. So I'm curious how they were. See small projects that they, that you weren't doing.
- [37:44]
Zoe Feldman
So I was very much resisting that rhetoric because I've never liked the idea of we only take a million dollar project. First of all, I can't afford to design a million dollar project. Personally, I just felt like that can't be the only way to make clients happy and to make money and to do all the things just so. We had never really had a hard rule like that, but it was just sort of getting there where, because of how we approach full service and how much we do for clients and, and things, the numbers just couldn't add up if you weren't at a certain level for the client. Like, it couldn't be like, oh, your whole budget is 300,000, great, we'll take 150,000 of that to design it in project management and you'll get 150,000 of product. Like, that sucks. And those numbers just don't make sense for anyone. And I didn't really feel comfortable with this number. So we weren't able to take those projects. So what they looked at is they looked at intakes when clients would express interest. They would be asked like, what's your budget? And then we were looking at those numbers that were substantial, maybe everything, 150 plus or something. That seemed to me like a lot of money and going, oh, wow. And it was alarming how much money we were leaving on the table. Now we weren't going to get all those projects, we weren't going to take all those projects. But it was just sort of this like zoomed out look at how much we were missing, potentially missing. And that was so exciting because I'd been desperate to do something, and here I wasn't allowed to do the chair anymore, so.
- [39:07]
Fred Nicholas
Well.
- [39:07]
Dennis Scully
And why is running an interior design firm not fulfilling enough for you, Zoe Feldman? That's my question.
- [39:13]
Zoe Feldman
This is an answer for a therapist, probably. And I've refused to do therapy in any sort of macro way, so we'll never know.
- [39:20]
Dennis Scully
Okay. So you spot the opportunity, you get excited because you think there's a new business that you can get into. And it sounds like husband Matt gets excited as well.
- [39:30]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Dennis Scully
And tell me how you go from there.
- [39:32]
Zoe Feldman
Well, I think for Matt, to some degree, it was exciting because I brought him into an existing business that I think will never feel, because while I want it to feel his, and honestly, I credit him entirely for scaling my company. I mean, I couldn't have done it without him. Whereas Demi is something that is also his baby, and it's something that we can grow together.
- [39:51]
Dennis Scully
Okay, now tell me very specifically, and let's. And let's talk about what Demi turns into.
- [39:58]
Zoe Feldman
Okay. So we all know about E design. That's been happening, and it's been, I would say, only marginally successful. Right. Like, a lot of people have tried it. A lot of people haven't been able to pull it off. I think there have been a couple of companies who have done an okay job at it, but that isn't what we were trying to do. So we weren't trying to capture that market. That market is kind of there. Also, I do the expert, which I'm obsessed with. I have an amazing relationship with them, and I get to service a client that is a bit more in that world. And so that sort of fulfilled the expert, fulfilled this really light design for us. And then we had our full service, and there was this huge empty part of the market that we couldn't get to. So we said, all right, what. What if it's attainable design, but it's not quite as simplistic as maybe traditional virtual and E design is. It's a little leveled up so that we can still bring our design and our aesthetic to the project. And I looked at myself, actually, and I thought, okay, I would be a Demi client. I can thankfully afford some level of service, but I couldn't afford me at a full service, not even close. And what I would want and value is I'd value a person's style and taste, but I'd be willing to accept that I might have to meet the painter versus the designer if it meant I could get a better Designer and a better product. I'd be okay with having to do a little bit of the project management as long as I had the support.
- [41:29]
Dennis Scully
Support of a firm and the firm helping you to make decisions about furniture and fabric and all of that. Is that what the Demi part would be?
- [41:40]
Zoe Feldman
And then, yes. And also we do still create the assets so that a person, you know, can properly project manage on their own. The way that we've constructed it is while you are primarily you as the client, primarily doing the project management. Management. We feel that we're so good at this that we have created a world where you feel incredibly supported. Because we've been beta testing this for, at this point, 18 to like 20 months. We've made certain that everybody working on Demi has either worked for me for a long period of time, has been properly trained, or they spend six months to a year in an apprenticeship working under somebody so that all of the designers that you get on the Demi side are well trained. Understand the Zoe Feldman aesthetic, understand more importantly how client focused we are. Because to sometimes the detriment of the company or my husband's, he doesn't love it all the time, but we're very client focused. Like, we're very like, oh, the client's right. We'll handle that. And we brought that to Demi also.
- [42:48]
Dennis Scully
I see. Okay. So sometimes you're writing checks for things that Matt says, boy, really, we have to cover that for that client. But you feel like the client needs that level of service and it's worth it in the end.
- [42:59]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah. And I look at companies that I respect and have built really amazing businesses like, say, Restoration Hardware or Waterworks or different companies that I feel aligned with from a. What appears to be like an ethos, a similar ethos. And oftentimes these companies understand that it's better to, you know, help a client now, even if it means, even if it hurts a little bit in the moment to retain the business or get additional business, you know, and it's not easy. A lot of people don't do it this way. And it, you know, you're playing a little bit of Russian roulette sometimes.
- [43:34]
Dennis Scully
Let's. Let's walk through the exercise. So what did you decide in order to make this profitable for you? What, what was the minimum budget that somebody would need to be a customer for Deming?
- [43:46]
Zoe Feldman
50. So we have a starting out at 50. It's important that the client understands that we're a bit like a car starting off at 50,000 with the understanding that you will likely spend a Bit more than that. You don't have to. We come in and we say, if you do exactly what we say and you add no bells and whistles, you can drive off the lot with this car and it's going to function, it's going to make you happy and it's going to heat you and it's going to do all the things. But if you want the sunroof and you want the leather. Right. So it's a starting price of 50,000, which we're very comfortable with. That includes our design fee and we've broken it down by room. This has worked so far. We imagine that it will evolve and things will change. People keep asking, can we just do a kitchen? Can we just do a bathroom? We will be able to just do a kitchen and just do a bathroom. We're just being careful at how we grow.
- [44:37]
Dennis Scully
Okay.
- [44:38]
Zoe Feldman
I imagine that future us will when we have figured out. Right. Because that's the thing about building a business, right? Like, I mean, let's all remember that Amazon started as a bookstore.
- [44:49]
Dennis Scully
So you're Amazon now. Okay. I like this. I like your big thinking, Zoe. So getting back to, okay, so let's just take $50,000 as our example. And I want to do my living room and I want to get some furniture and some window treatments and a few other things. Are you, are you placing orders on my behalf? Are you giving me access to all of your trade resources and that's part of it, or is it more you're using other kinds of resources where I'm going to be dealing with them directly?
- [45:20]
Zoe Feldman
No, we do all the procurement that stays actually exactly the same as how we do it in full service. We procure everything. We do not pass along discounts. We make money on product, which is one of the ways we can keep our design fee down. So we make money both in design fee and, and in product. Neither is egregious. And so this is how, because we play in both fields and everything goes to receiving house just as it does with full service. Everything gets inspected, everything gets installed on one day, one week depending on how large the project. And at the moment in demi we do for local projects, meaning D.C. and New York City. At the moment we are doing in person installs. We are still beta testing, say Miami or long distance, where we don't necessarily have to go. This remains remains a question mark in my brain as to whether or not we can pull off an install and not have to be there, or if we can't maintain the quality without involving the install. What's really important is not just be able to give the information to whomever you need to, but you're also protected so that that information is written down and there's tons of redundancy. So if at any point the tile is installed incorrectly or the paint is painted incorrectly, we have many different versions and in different places to show that you said this color, not this color or running bond, not straight or whatever it is. And that's really important for clients so that they don't, you know, even if there's a mistake made, and there will be mistakes made, you're protected as the client.
- [46:50]
Dennis Scully
Well, and you mentioned earlier as you were beta testing and it sounds like you've been beta testing for 18, 20 months. Yes. You discovered some of the pain points. So what were some of the pain points that have come up and how have you addressed them?
- [47:05]
Zoe Feldman
I think a big pain point for people is there's an overwhelmingness to the experience of project managing. And so even if you give everyone an enormous map, right. And an enormous binder, and I use map, not actually a map, but some floor plans and finish schedules and a play by play of how this is going to go and questions to ask because it's unfamiliar territory to people, there's still a level of unrest and uncomfortability. And so we learned that just having a few calls, like leading up to or afterward to just do that like human moment with people makes people feel more comfortable. I think it's why I feel, you know, I mentioned to you when we were getting ready for the show that we're doing some AI training. And I'm really excited about it because actually at the Future of Home, I saw Martha Stewart there and she mentioned being an early adopter to progress and tech and things like that. So I took a page out of that and I was like, we got to get into this AI thing. But one of the things, I think that things like AI or when you're just giving assets to people in a very kind of just here you go and you don't have the human touch, people still feel confused and just like nervous. And when people are nervous, nervous, they mess up. So we just wanted to bring like the human element into it. And that's why I think that we've looked at like where people get nervous, where people feel confident and we've dropped in like human moments into those spaces so that people are like, oh, okay, I just needed to have like a 10 minute chat. I thought that's what it was. But okay, I feel better.
- [48:47]
Dennis Scully
Well, but so to that point, and I'm glad that you raised AI because I was curious. Curious if there were technological efficiencies that were helping to make a lot of this possible and control costs, but also just make the process go a little bit more easily. Tell me, tell me the role that AI or technology is playing.
- [49:07]
Zoe Feldman
We don't know yet. We're having our training on Monday and we're very excited about it. At the moment we're pretty analog and we're using AI ChatGPT, you know, little bits that everybody's doing. But I imagine that now that it's being integrated into so many products that the way I understand it is it will become enormous and I hope that it will mean that the human component can actually get deeper and not affect the margins. So right now, because humans have to do so much of this analog work that's just mundane and redundant and whatever it takes away from our ability to design or do other things where we actually probably provide more value.
- [49:50]
Dennis Scully
How big a team have you dedicated to this initiative at the moment? It sounded like you've got some people who are working remotely in other places. And how are you thinking about the team and scaling?
- [50:05]
Zoe Feldman
I think there's about eight people right now working on Demi. We imagine that there will always be people apprenticing because we believe that they shouldn't have their own projects until they're dripping in how we do things. They really understand it frontward and backward because it's not just from an aesthetic space and it is that, but also the way that we value customers, the way that we approach business. So that's going to take time. So sometimes there will be a one person team and oftentimes there will be two person teams. Teams. We do have a few people on full service who, who act as design directors and kind of work in both spaces. Right now I also, I'm like the chief creative officer of Demi. Then we have two design directors on full service who work in and help with the design on that. We have some wonderful more senior designers and then we have a bunch of like junior or a few junior and design assistants or mostly junior design designers. We are also working out. We just started design pods because I believe in the art of collaboration.
- [51:10]
Dennis Scully
What are design pods?
- [51:12]
Zoe Feldman
So if people are going to work in silo and be remote, that panics me. So we're clustering them into like four or five person pods that meet weekly to talk about lessons learned or problems they're having or just to be able to be like, what do you guys like blue or green, you know, and all of that. And then they're part of a team and they will have a slack channel that they can constantly be also accessing. And so it's just like the. I think the art of collaboration is just massive in everything, not just design.
- [51:42]
Dennis Scully
When you talk about the difference between Demi and Full Service, we've talked obviously about the scale of the project and the budget, and all of that is a clear distinction. And the DME customer has to be willing to take on some of the project management part. But also I'm wondering how. How else you think about distinguishing it and are you thinking about Demi as part of your firm or a separate standalone company? Does it become this whole separate design firm on its own that just takes on a different scale and level of project? How are you thinking about it at this point? I know it's early.
- [52:21]
Zoe Feldman
I think at the moment Demi is a part of our firm, but I think it's pretty obvious that Demi will have its own legs and be its own company company. At one point. We're growing it as a startup under the umbrella of Zoe Feldman. I don't imagine it will ever lose that branding and not be a part of us, but it will be an entirely. I think separate. It is already an entirely separate service, but it will likely be an entirely separate company at some point.
- [52:48]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm curious because in a way, I mean, I can't help but think about Home Polish for. For example.
- [52:54]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah, right.
- [52:55]
Dennis Scully
And back in the day, and again, for all the things that went so terribly wrong at Home Polish, there was a time when home polish was great. It was just as you were describing. You had this client who had a limited budget and you could buy 10 hours and you could start a project and in many cases they would come to your home or whatever. And I mean, there were a lot of elements of that that sent. Sound similar here. Yes.
- [53:23]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah. Should that be terrifying?
- [53:25]
Dennis Scully
Well, listen, I mean, always keep in mind what happened, right. And whether you think in the end it grew too quickly or venture capital forced too much change, or people just got ahead of themselves.
- [53:37]
Zoe Feldman
Yeah, I think things grow too quickly. I also think that venture capitals put guns to your head and all of a sudden you have to make a gazillion dollars. We don't ever plan to do any of that. So this is why right now we're not doing certain things, even though future us likely will, you know, because we have to grow slowly to maintain the brand, to maintain the quality we already know. Historical reference tells us that growing too fast, you know, can be one of the hardest things on a business.
- [54:05]
Fred Nicholas
Sure.
- [54:05]
Zoe Feldman
So even though there's such a desire to do that. Right. It's so exciting and enticing. We don't plan to do that. I think we're learning from the mistakes of others. Others. And, and all that to say there's plenty of businesses who have grown, you know, slowly and have maintained, you know, their brand and their quality.
- [54:23]
Dennis Scully
It's a great point. I mean, and you. And you mentioned the Expert earlier and what I. And I want to talk about that, but I'm, I'm curious. Tell me a little bit about the Demi onboarding. So let's say I've got $75,000 and I want to do my living room. And am I. Are we hopping on a zoom call? Are we? I mean, I filled out some intake form, I'm assuming, telling you what I've got going on. How does this get rolling?
- [54:49]
Zoe Feldman
If you're in D.C. or you're in New York, we'll do an in person.
- [54:53]
Dennis Scully
Okay.
- [54:54]
Zoe Feldman
We then move into a virtual experience where we're sending you a quiz. We are developing concepts for you, seeing how you're feeling about them. We're doing space plans, but it all moves into a virtual experience from there. And we try to keep it as virtual as possible because we think in order to grow. That's one of the differentiating components. We also do believe that the world, you know, as horrible as Covid was, it did usher in our ability to be virtual and not be so afraid of it. So we're taking advantage of that. But, yeah, that's how we sort of get rolling. And we're just doing a lot of visual play. Space plans, budgets. We do that. Those are our. Our first things.
- [55:37]
Dennis Scully
Okay. Okay. Well, and I'm curious because you have been on the Expert for a while.
- [55:43]
Zoe Feldman
And I'm curious, the number one Northeast.
- [55:46]
Dennis Scully
Expert, Did we mention that? So with that in mind, I'm curious. First of all, I'm curious as to who is coming to you on the Expert, because I'm endlessly fast, fascinated by the stories that I hear from designers on the Expert, who tell me, oh, my gosh, they come with plans, they come with all these things, or they want all this help. I mean, tell me what it's been like for you.
- [56:12]
Zoe Feldman
Oh, it's amazing. I mean, it's so fun because as a designer, you're so used to homework, and with the Expert, you have none. And so you just get to hyper focus for 55 minutes. Do your best work, immerse yourself into a project and then eject and then you might hear from them again. We often will talk to people more than one time, which is really, really nice because you get to see the project, you know, unfold.
- [56:33]
Dennis Scully
Right.
- [56:33]
Zoe Feldman
We're talking to people a lot about layout, about paint, about wallpaper selection, kind of overall concept, but it tends to be pretty hyper focused into a living room. Like I had one yesterday and we did mostly paint. We went through the home and talked about, like, how to. About the color story a little bit on layout and living room, but that was really it. I mean, it's 55 minutes. It's, you know, it's long enough to get something really good out of it for sure. But sometimes the reason we'll do more than one is because I'll ask them to get samples and then call me back when they have the samples. And then we do like the second one with the samples so we can actually select well.
- [57:13]
Dennis Scully
And I'm curious if, now that we've got Demi, is there an opportunity on a call, hey, you want to continue this conversation? Or hey, it sounds like you really have a project here. Let me tell you about this new service we've got. And can it, can it turn into that?
- [57:30]
Zoe Feldman
Yes, occasionally. And by the way, I asked the expert their blessing because they're good friends of mine. Leo is a friend of mine, and I'm a fan. Yeah. So, like, it was sort of like I didn't want them to think that it, you know, it's a very different service. Occasionally when I'm on an expert call, I'll realize, is this something you'd be interested in taking further? Are you looking for more of like a full service experience? And they'll say, yeah, but like, I can't afford you. And then I'll say, no, you can. And here's how, you know, maybe that happens 10% of the time. A lot of the times it's just not what the people are looking for. You know, they don't want to go any further. They just want a quick. They're pretty far along. They just want to make sure that things they picked are okay or, you know, so the expert, like I said, is, you know, we now have basically three tiers, and expert fills a hole. That's exciting for me because like I said in the beginning, I really like to get good design into more people's homes. And so it's fun. And usually the people are just like real stoked to be like, having this moment. They're like, yay, I'm obsessed with your design. This is so exciting. And, you know, you're like, oh, good. This is so exciting. They're so excited. I'm excited. Let's go.
- [58:37]
Dennis Scully
Well, that makes a lot of sense. And you mentioned RH earlier. Do you use a lot of RH in projects? I don't even know these days if that's a lower price point necessarily, but maybe it helps at certain tiers. You tell me.
- [58:53]
Zoe Feldman
I don't think we use a ton of Rh because we don't get a big discount there. But I look to RH as an example of a company that I think has serviced their clients well. RH historically has been wonderful about, like, taking product back and not making a fuss over things. And from where I stand, that has served them well. And so we have taken some of that. That ethos and embedded it into Demi. I once read a Branson, a Richard Branson book, and he talked about his. His journey from, you know, a young boy to now. And he talked about how he's never necessarily been obsessed with airplanes or music, but that what he's been consistently obsessed with has been creating a fun experience for people. And he's taken that to all of his ventures, and that really resonated with me, and I've taken that to my ventures. I'm like, okay, this is design. It happens to be design. But that's not the only thing we're providing. We're really trying to provide an amazing customer experience, and that could be for anything. And I feel that if we don't do that for Demi, then regardless. Regardless of what happens, we will have failed.
- [60:14]
Dennis Scully
Well, so stay tuned. But I'm thrilled that you could take us through it, and now I understand it much better. But I so appreciate you making the time to talk with me.
- [60:24]
Zoe Feldman
You're the best. Thanks, Dennis.
- [60:31]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [60:40]
Fred Nicholas
$10 million caught my eye this week, Dennis. It's the amount of money raised by a company called Canvas. Probably a little bit under the radar for most interior designers, but what Canvas does is they make software that goes on an iPhone that allows you to make a three. Well, actually, some designers do use it to be. To be. To be clear, it's a software for an iPhone or any other phone, really, that has a LiDAR scanner that allows you to sort of take a 3D scan scan of a room and turn it into a CAD model. I just thought it was interesting just because like there's not, there hasn't been that much big funding announcements over the past year in the home world. You know, all of the money has just been plowed into like AI companies and no one wants to hear like 10, 20 million dollars for an e design startup or for any E commerce venture. So I just thought it was interesting because it was the first fundraise I'd seen in a minute. But I also think in a way it actually does kind of tie into the AI thing because I think that there's all these new next generation companies that are going to try and use AI to do E design or just design in general, and they're going to need some sort of interface between how you get the shape of your room into your phone so AI can work its magic on it. And I think that's where Canvas comes in. And so I think you have companies like Isla Porter. I don't know if they specifically use Canvas, but they need technology like that. So I think that's stuff that is AI adjacent, is making money right now. And that certainly caught my eye. Had you heard of Canvas before, Dana?
- [61:58]
Dennis Scully
Well, we had, we had heard of it and I was glad. I think you and I talked about the fact that there haven't been a lot of funding round announcements in our space. So I was, I was, I was happy to see that and I hope that we'll learn more.
- [62:11]
Fred Nicholas
What caught your eye this week? Dennis?
- [62:13]
Dennis Scully
Well, one of the many shows that you and I don't get to go to is the Nashville Antique and Garden show, which just happened recently. And a lot of people that we've talked to in the past were there. Rena Koenig and Veer Grenny were on a panel I saw with Derek Cabanegro, and a designer put up a post and referenced my recent conversation actually with Rita Koenig, where Rita talked about dealers and how dealers are just great people and they're so interesting and you learn so much from them them. And there are a lot of just great antique dealers that participate in the Nashville Antique and Garden Show. She called out a few of them, Tucker Payne and Kenny Ball and some others. And so many designers tell me how much they have learned from great antique dealers and vintage dealers. And it really makes me eager to try and find some good dealers to have on the show and really have an interesting conversation about how the industry has evolved and changed and really share some of the vast knowledge that dealers have. But that's one of those shows that I think designers really get a lot out of is the Nashville Antique and Garden show. And so I was so pleased that there was a shout out to a bunch of the dealers.
- [63:38]
Fred Nicholas
There is this just like a come and get me plea for an invitation to the next one.
- [63:41]
Dennis Scully
Dennis well, you know, I'd love to hear from people who they think a great conversation would, would be. Certainly I would love to participate in Nashville, any excuse to get to that. But, but more it was, I'm, I'd love to have some fun conversations with people. So if people have thoughts about who some great dealers for me to talk to would be, I would, I would love to hear. So, so by all means, let me know. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for, for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.