Wallpaper goes in and out of style. Gracie endures

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Summary
Episode: "Wallpaper Goes In and Out of Style. Gracie Endures"
Release Date: May 19, 2025

Hosted by Dennis Scully, the Business of Home Podcast delves into the intricate world of interior design, featuring insightful conversations with industry leaders. In this episode, Dennis interviews Mike and Jennifer Gracie, the brother and sister duo steering the fifth generation of the family-owned Gracie wallpaper business. Founded in New York in 1898, Gracie has a storied history of importing exquisite hand-painted wallpapers from China, catering to iconic decorators over the past century. This episode explores the company's resilience amid trade challenges, the artistry behind their products, and the enduring appeal of their unique offerings.

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1. Introduction to Gracie Wallpaper

Dennis Scully opens the episode by introducing Mike and Jennifer Gracie, highlighting Gracie’s legacy as a fifth-generation family business established in 1898. Gracie gained prominence in the 1920s by importing hand-painted wallpapers, forging a crucial relationship with a Chinese studio to produce custom designs. The company has served illustrious decorators such as Elsie DeWolf, Mario Botta, and Alexa Hampton.

Notable Quote:
"From Elsie DeWolf to Mario Botta to Alexa Hampton." ([00:06])

2. Navigating Trade Tariffs and the Trade War with China

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the impact of recent trade tariffs imposed during the trade war with China. On May 12, Gracie received news that tariffs were reduced from over 145% to 30%. Previously, a $100 order of hand-painted wallpaper incurred a hefty $152.50 in tariffs, severely impacting their costs.

Notable Quotes:
"From 145 plus. We were at 7.5 on Inauguration Day, so the additional 145 had us at that net of 152.5%." ([03:24])
"We were delighted obviously that we didn't have to put in those extra fees for our clients." ([05:15])

The Graceis chose not to raise their prices despite the increased costs, aiming to maintain stability and avoid burdening their clients during tumultuous times. Their strategic decision garnered positive feedback, with Jennifer noting, "I had a number of positive responses and actually 0 negative responses to, you know, having sent it out to tens of thousands of contacts." ([06:18])

3. Maintaining Client Relations and Business Integrity

Gracie's approach to absorbing tariff costs without passing them onto clients reinforced their reputation for reliability and customer-centricity. The siblings emphasized their commitment to quality and service, ensuring that clients received exceptional value without unexpected price hikes during uncertain economic periods.

Notable Quote:
"We never sold anybody something that they needed. Right. They're buying a luxury product, they're buying something that's special." ([15:36])

4. Heritage and Historical Resilience

The Gracie family's deep-rooted history is a testament to their resilience through various global challenges, including the Great Depression and multiple World Wars. Jennifer provides a detailed account of the company's evolution, from its origins with James Gracie to the pivotal role of Charles R. Gracie in transforming the business into an interior furnishings powerhouse in the 1920s.

Notable Quote:
"Charles R. Gracie felt he could sell anything that wasn't nailed down. So he had a new product that he couldn't wait to sell in New York." ([08:15])

The company's relationship with Chinese artisans began in 1927, establishing a legacy of handcrafted excellence that has persisted despite geopolitical upheavals.

5. The Artistry of Hand-Painted Chinese Wallpaper

A core discussion point revolves around the unique craftsmanship of Gracie’s hand-painted silk wallpapers. Jennifer emphasizes the exclusivity and personal touch inherent in their products, stating, "There's an enduring appeal for hand painted Chinese wallpaper. It's clear for so long now that sort of opulence that it brings to a room and this beauty and specialness." ([11:29])

The Graceis highlight that their wallpapers are not mass-produced but are meticulously handcrafted, ensuring that each design is unique and tailored to the client's space. This dedication to artistry distinguishes Gracie from conventional wallpaper providers.

Notable Quote:
"No two rooms are alike because we hand sketch it to architecture and the flow of the trees and the flowers and the birds and everything is unique." ([13:00])

6. Sales Process and Customization

Gracie’s sales process is intricate, involving extensive collaboration between designers and clients to create bespoke wallpaper solutions. Jennifer outlines the meticulous steps from initial design sketches to multiple iterations, ensuring the final product aligns perfectly with the client's vision.

Notable Quote:
"The development of a custom hand painted wallpaper involves a lot of back and forth, a tremendous amount of detail, attention to detail." ([14:24])

Mike adds that designers play a crucial role in guiding homeowners through the customization process, preventing them from getting overwhelmed by the intricate details.

7. Showroom Expansion and Market Strategy

To enhance visibility and accessibility, Gracie has strategically expanded their showroom presence beyond New York. In 2013, they opened a showroom in Dallas, followed by another in Los Angeles in 2017. This expansion allows clients to experience the grandeur of Gracie’s wallpaper firsthand, showcasing large display wings and full-room installations.

Notable Quote:
"Seeing a full room is always really helpful for people." ([36:10])

The decision to prioritize major design hubs like Dallas and LA was driven by the need to reach diverse markets and cater to a broader clientele, reinforcing Gracie’s prominence in the interior design industry.

8. Product Offerings: Custom vs. Stock Designs

While Gracie primarily focuses on custom-hand painted wallpapers, they have reintroduced stock designs to cater to clients needing quicker solutions. Currently, they offer 12-15 in-stock designs, which can be accessed more readily compared to their custom offerings.

Notable Quote:
"We sell panels that are in stock just about every day. We have 12 designs at this point, about to be 14 or 15." ([37:05])

Despite the availability of stock designs, the majority of Gracie’s business remains centered on bespoke creations, with clients appreciating the uniqueness and personalization that custom wallpapers provide.

9. Collaborations and Modern Innovations

Gracie actively pursues collaborations with renowned designers to stay at the forefront of design trends. While they maintain a limited selection of digitally printed designs to preserve their handcrafted legacy, they are open to innovative partnerships that align with their brand ethos.

Notable Quote:
"We have two designs that are in development right now with Kevin Isbell, who's become a good friend of mine." ([43:36])

Their collaboration with Ruggable exemplifies Gracie’s willingness to explore new avenues while maintaining the integrity of their traditional craftsmanship.

10. Next Generation Leadership and Future Prospects

Looking ahead, the Gracie family is preparing the next generation to sustain and evolve the business. Zach, Jennifer and Mike’s son, brings fresh perspectives and a passion for antiques, indicating a promising future for the company's legacy.

Notable Quote:
"Zach is as passionate, if not more so, than us jaded old veterans in the industry." ([41:53])

This seamless transition ensures that Gracie remains a dynamic and enduring presence in the interior design landscape.

11. Conclusion: Preserving a Timeless Craft

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of Gracie’s commitment to maintaining the authenticity and artistry of their Chinese-based hand-painted wallpapers. Jennifer underscores the importance of preserving this unique craft, likening it to cherished cultural imports like Champagne.

Notable Quote:
"This is something that we have to keep alive. I think the fashion industry as well feels that way, that some of the most beautiful textiles in the world are made in China." ([47:00])

Gracie’s unwavering dedication to quality, heritage, and client satisfaction positions them as a resilient and respected leader in the interior design community.

Final Thoughts:
Dennis Scully wraps up the conversation by acknowledging the positive developments in the industry, particularly the reduction in tariffs, which bodes well for Gracie’s continued success. The Graceis express their gratitude for the support from their clients and the design community, emphasizing the collaborative spirit that drives their enduring legacy.

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Key Takeaways:

• Heritage and Resilience: Gracie’s century-long history showcases their ability to adapt and thrive through global economic and political changes.

• Artistry and Customization: The company’s commitment to handcrafted, bespoke wallpapers sets them apart in the market, offering unparalleled uniqueness and quality.

• Strategic Growth: Expansion into key markets like Dallas and LA, coupled with selective product offerings, has bolstered Gracie’s presence and accessibility.

• Future-Oriented Leadership: With the next generation poised to take the helm, Gracie is well-positioned to continue its legacy while embracing modern design trends.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• "We were delighted obviously that we didn't have to put in those extra fees for our clients." ([05:15])
• "There's an enduring appeal for hand painted Chinese wallpaper." ([11:29])
• "We never sold anybody something that they needed. Right. They're buying a luxury product, they're buying something that's special." ([15:36])
• "Zach is as passionate, if not more so, than us jaded old veterans in the industry." ([41:53])

This episode provides a comprehensive look into Gracie’s enduring success, emphasizing the importance of heritage, craftsmanship, and strategic adaptation in the ever-evolving interior design industry.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is business of home.

[Mike Gracie]

I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Mike and Jennifer Gracie, the brother and sister team that makes up the fifth generation of family leadership behind Gracie. Founded in New York in 1898, Gracie hit its stride in the 1920s when it began importing hand painted wallpapers. Over the decades, it built a relationship with a studio in China to produce exquisite custom work along the way, servicing the iconic decorators of the past century. From Elsie DeWolf to Mario Botta to Alexa Hampton. I spoke with Mike and Jennifer about riding the ups and downs of the trade war with China, the unique charms and challenges of hand painted silk, and why, even as wallpaper goes in and out of style, Gracie endures.

[Dennis Scully]

This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Welcome Spring with a dazzling array of new custom sized rugs at Ernesta. Explore the expert craftsmanship of Ernesta's soft fade resistant outdoor styles and discover design forward options where function truly meets beauty. All custom sized and delivered in as little as two weeks. And when you join Ernesta's exclusive trade program, their team of dedicated consultants will manage everything from ordering samples to generating quotes, connecting all of the dots to support and streamline your business. Apply for membership [e-mail] BOH this podcast.

[Mike Gracie]

Is sponsored by Thibaut. Did you know that Thiebaud, a trusted trade resource since 1886, is the exclusive representative of Armani Casa wall coverings in North America? The eponymous Italian fashion house is celebrated for its sleek, sophisticated furnishings and interior decor. And the wall coverings offered by Thiebaud are no exception. To see for yourself and order memos, contact your dedicated Thiebaud representative or visit a Thiebaud show near you. Learn [e-mail] AC and now, on with the show.

[Dennis Scully]

I feel like I was just in your office a few days ago, literally, and it was a very different time.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yes, yes.

[Dennis Scully]

Spirits were a lot lower the last time I was here. There was a sense of real despair and for legitimate reasons.

[Jennifer Gracie]

It was grim.

[Dennis Scully]

It was grim.

[Jennifer Gracie]

It was grim.

[Dennis Scully]

But now, and we should say, Mike, as you talked about, as we do on the show lately, we have to timestamp.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. So it's Monday, May 12, and we're.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Talking big news this morning.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. Big news this morning. So what was the news that you heard, Jen?

[Unnamed Family Member]

So the news this morning, I woke up to the headline on my phone that negotiations had gone well in Switzerland and that tariffs are being reduced to 30%. Shock.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah. From 145 plus. We were at 7.5 on Inauguration Day, so the additional 145 had us at that net of 152.5%. So if we bought $100 worth of hand painted wallpaper from our China studio, we'd pay $152.50 tariffs to U.S. customs and Border Protection. And we actually did that for about six weeks or so for several shipments. So it was very expensive.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay, so you actually experienced the tariffs immediately. You paid them. Okay, we did, yeah.

[Jennifer Gracie]

There was no stopping because we were fulfilling client orders that had been placed, being produced on a two order basis and had to be delivered to meet their deadlines. So.

[Dennis Scully]

And you had sent out, if I recall, a communication saying, well, tell me exactly what you communicated to clients about what your short term plans were at least.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Well, we spoke as a family and Mike and our dad and my son Zach and I and decided that we would not raise our prices and not put in a tariff clause and hold out for as long as possible because things have seemed so tumultuous and we wanted to try to be relative calm in a sea of uncertainty. So that was our plan and we hoped that it would only be a couple of weeks, hopefully before the tariffs were reduced. And it wasn't a couple of weeks. And then we hoped it would only be a couple more weeks and they didn't come down. So it was a nail biter and it's definitely been longer than we had hoped. But we're delighted obviously that we didn't have to put in those extra fees for our clients and now will not have to, it seems. So. This is for 90 days. We will see what happens after this.

[Jennifer Gracie]

We were quite clear that we were going to continue to eat a significant amount of it, even if we had to pass it on at some point. So now that we're down to 30% plus the 7.5, you know, it's, it's. Yes, I agree. I think it's quite likely that we're going to ride this out for 90 days, not affect our pricing and see what happens next.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yeah, I did say that without consulting Mike first and he didn't kick me under the table, so I'm glad about that.

[Dennis Scully]

I wondered how those communications work, how one cuts the other off. Yeah, well, I mean, it's interesting because so, so many designers have been sending me emails and DMs about what different vendors have been doing and people sent me your letter that you had sent and said, oh, this was so nice that they were, at least for now, not raising prices, even though people were imagining that the tariffs were hitting you quite hard. Because, I mean, everyone, everyone who knows of you certainly knows that the product is coming from, from China and that you were most directly impacted.

[Jennifer Gracie]

That's great. I hadn't heard that you'd heard directly from our clients with regard to that note. Yeah, I was really proud of it. You know, I think we put a really great message together and I think we, I think we got in early and made a decision about where we wanted to stand on this. And it was quite well received. I had a number of positive responses and actually 0, 0 negative responses to, you know, having sent it out to tens of thousands of contacts.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We have no choice. This is a Chinese art. It's like saying, let's make Italian shoes in Iowa. It isn't an option for it to be made anywhere else. It's a Chinese craft that was invented there. It will continue to be made there. And we have a very strong relationship with our artist family who we love over there. And so it's very important to us to support them so well.

[Dennis Scully]

And I want to talk about that in more detail. What I want to do initially is talk about this moment in the context of your business because it's sixth generation, right, with the people that are outside and your fifth generation with the family business. This is a business that has been through multiple world wars and the Great Depression. So it's seen its share of challenges in the past. And Mike, I wonder if you can give a little bit of the history of the company for listeners who might not know the whole story.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Sure, yeah. Well, I'll go all the way back, but it was established by our great, great grandfather, James Gracie in 1898. He was probably a furniture refinisher type of a shop. And we unfortunately don't know a ton about him and his business. We know a lot more about our great grandfather, Charles R. Gracie, which is continues to be our legal name, Charles R. Gracie and Sons Incorporated.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Which is a mouthful, which is why we go. Why we go by Gracie DBA Gracie.

[Jennifer Gracie]

So Charles R. We know, really, really built the business into more of what we recognize today as an interior furnishings operation. And he was into hand carved architectural moldings mostly. So he had an amazing shop with Italian craftspeople right here in New York City and dealt with the carriage trade in New York. Some of the earliest interior designers like Elsie DeWolf and Macmillan. And so he had a business that he built up to really be something in the twenties, the Roaring twenties, I guess. So we're probably talking about good times, right? Filling up all those beautiful rooms with ornate carved moldings. And then he had a personal interest in miniature Chinese porcelain that he collected through a dealer in Beijing, gentleman by the name of Ed Barrett, who I actually found his ancestry page. And there's a great picture of him, a real dandy and man of the world. Born in San Francisco and made his way all around the world and became a dealer in antiques out of Mongolia and Beijing back in the 20s. So he was introduced, Charles R. Was introduced to a hand painted wallpaper studio in 1927. And that's how we got into that studio was in Beijing. And Charles R. Felt he could sell anything that wasn't nailed down. So he had a new product that he couldn't wait to sell in New York. And that was quickly followed by the Depression. So first, first, first roadblock to the development of hand painted wallpaper business. Anyway, so then World War II, of course comes along and there's embargoes and nothing can be imported and they sort of get through that and recover a little bit. And then the communist revolution took place in 1949 and our studio was run by nationalists, so they had to flee to Taiwan and that was a whole shakeup as well. So it was a rough start.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you mentioned Elsie DeWolf and I mean you did. And Macmillan. I mean you did have these great designers of the day. And there was a wonderful picture that I saw of a receipt from. Was it the Conde Nast penthouse apartment or something?

[Unnamed Family Member]

Of the purchase order from Elsie DeWolfe.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes.

[Unnamed Family Member]

That lists hundreds of hundreds of panels of wallpaper and a grand total of $200 at the bottom.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

I wonder what the profit margins were for this business.

[Jennifer Gracie]

I can just see Charles R. Getting to the bottom of the list. He's like, well, we got a couple of dozen rolls here and a couple of panels. £12, call it 200 even.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, but it seems, I mean, despite all of the, all of the many challenges, it seems like no matter what period in history you look back in, the big designers of the day were customers of the business. Is that fair to say?

[Unnamed Family Member]

Very fair to say, yes.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Seems so, yeah.

[Unnamed Family Member]

People do sometimes say, oh, you're so lucky. Wallpaper's having a real moment right now. But luckily for us, there's always been enough of a moment for a very niche business that is our sort of hand painted wallpaper. Someone enough people have always been very interested in having a unique room that will never be era repeat of anyone else's room. So we're fortunate to do what we do.

[Jennifer Gracie]

There's an enduring appeal for hand painted Chinese wallpaper. It's clear for so long now that sort of opulence that it brings to a room and this beauty and specialness. Looking back through the decades, the antique wallpapers that we were involved in, Blair House and Winfield House going back to the 50s and 60s, and the interest in these wallpapers as they were introduced, it really endures well.

[Dennis Scully]

And we joke about wallpaper going in and out of fashion and certainly, I mean it sounds like it's been a fairly constant and steady demand.

[Unnamed Family Member]

It has been.

[Jennifer Gracie]

We don't feel the ebb and flow of wallpaper popularity in the way that I hear people often bring up to me, it does knock on wood. It does sort of. Again, sort of indoor. But yes, wallpaper's having a moment. How many times have I heard that in my 30 years?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and so to that point, what is it that Gracie wallpaper represents beyond what a typical wallpaper might deliver that has created this consistency or it seems to be so much more than just wallpaper. Right? It's a. You tell me.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Well, I think when you look around this office, you can see the level of detail which certainly is unique to ours. And people really do love the fact that they can customize absolutely anything, you know, not just the background color.

[Jennifer Gracie]

To answer your question, I think it's the exclusivity of it, isn't it? It's this personal aspect of it. They feel that's their wallpaper, you know, it's their. They've personalized their room. No two rooms are alike. Even if they order the same sku. No two rooms are alike because we hand sketch it to architecture and the flow of the trees and the flowers and the birds and everything is unique with that same feeling of that particular design. So yeah, I think there is a feeling of it being something that is their own.

[Unnamed Family Member]

And when something is done by hand, it's. You know, I say to people sometimes that this may not be the product for you because it's not made with machine made precision. So sometimes people will look at our silk wallpapers and say, oh, I can see the seam. And I will say, silk is not for you then because you will always. He will always seem. Yes, we just can't get that darn silk to line up, it seems. So I actually, I love seeing those little things that some people might call imperfections. But That I see as being able to see where that artist touched that paper. And I can look around my own home and see things that I love, being able to see that handmade quality. So our dad says, you know, that we haven't really learned to do anything the easy way. And that's true. Things haven't really progressed all that much when it comes to the production of the wallpaper.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I want to talk about that because this does seem to be such a complex sale and it's a lengthy process, even just someone considering and really understanding what's involved. And then the time going back and forth and often many iterations along the way. So tell me without getting too granular, I mean, take me through the sales process and what goes into it, because there's quite a bit.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Sure, yeah. The development of a custom hand painted wallpaper involves a lot of back and forth, a tremendous amount of detail, attention to detail, and they all do it. And of course, we expect that with a great degree of customer service and friendline and an accommodating approach to it. Because another Brian, Gracie quote me and Jen's dad, we never sold anybody something that they needed. Right. They're buying a luxury product, they're buying something that's special. They better have a special experience working with Gracie as well. So our salespeople really do that and I give them tremendous credit for the job that they do.

[Unnamed Family Member]

But we love our interior designer clients. They are so essential. Homeowners get overwhelmed. They start to worry about the turn of every butterfly wing, you know, and the direction of every leaf. And they do tend to get bogged down in the details. And so designers are so important in helping homeowners see the big picture. And we couldn't live without them.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so help me understand. So I'm Alexa Hampton, who I understand is quite a good customer. She is quite a good customer.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I adore her.

[Dennis Scully]

Alexa Hampton shows up and she has a client of hers that she wants to have. Gracie wallpaper. Do you come on site? Do you look at plans? I mean, tell me a little bit of the discussion and the process.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I love visiting homes, but it's rare. We usually do not usually. Alexa would come in with the elevations of a room and it's lovely if she brings her client in. That doesn't always happen. Sometimes she will borrow several different designs, fully hand painted panels, and bring those to the to present to the client. And then we will take those elevations and do a design sketch for the room to show her how the entire design will look. In the space. And we can do many iterations of that until she absolutely loves it.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and tell me, I mean, to that point, tell me some challenges that you've been presented with to the point of personalization or people wanting things. I mean, Mike's family is here playing a board game in this wallpaper. But I mean, tell me.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We did actually have. We had one order where I think it was someone wanted a fox that they would see as they walked into her room. And they were concerned that the fox would not be making direct eye contact with them as they walked into the room. And we explained that since the fox was going to be painted in one place, it wouldn't be possible for the fox to be making eye contact from different entrances.

[Dennis Scully]

So they wanted the fox to be able to look at them from wherever they came.

[Jennifer Gracie]

We don't do animatronic foxes. Sorry. We had a salesperson named Jay years ago and he was working on an extensive custom hand painted wallpaper that was a landscape and figure scene. So it's like a lovely little Chinese village kind of a scene with mountains and people working in the tea trade or something like that. And the homeowner wanted to have their, like, I don't know, 84 Buick painted in the driving through the 17th century Chinese town. And I remember Jay's quote was, that's where Brian Gracie put his foot down.

[Mike Gracie]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Thibaut. I know I mentioned their exclusive offerings of Armani Casa wall coverings, but I'd be remiss not to highlight the full range of products available across their family of brands. Thibaut, Anna French and Coraggio. Thiebaud is of course best known for its fabrics and wall coverings, but they also offer trimmings, custom area R furniture, and a specifier friendly contract assortment, including a made to order program. Anna French features wall coverings and fabrics that blend English heritage with a global perspective, while Coraggio, true masters of sophistication and texture, offers exclusive wall coverings and textiles crafted with premium materials. To learn more, visit thibaudesign.com Bohemia and.

[Dennis Scully]

Now back to the show. So Alexa will have plans and she'll take samples and then the client agrees on some color schemes and what they want. Yes, tell me what happens next because you've got this team in China that, as you were saying, so this is late 1600s. This art form comes to be it did this family that you've been working with for it sounds like a couple of generations.

[Unnamed Family Member]

1963 generations.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Okay.

[Unnamed Family Member]

So once Alexa loves the custom sample, loves the design sketch, the order goes into production. Right now, custom orders are being Produced in about 14 to 16 weeks from start to finish. So each panel takes, depending on the design and the background material, about 80 to 120 hours. We don't put little orders before big orders. We don't feel it's fair. So we actually just do things in chronological order from the date we receive it. And I don't think that's terribly long. I think a lot of people are waiting for a custom set.

[Dennis Scully]

Hand painted wallpaper from China.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yeah, I think people are waiting longer for.

[Dennis Scully]

There are some showrooms in this building that can't turn around a piece of furniture that quickly.

[Jennifer Gracie]

So we're not only artistic, but efficient.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We always want it to be the last thing to go in anyway because we have had some crying phone calls where our wallpaper has gone in first and then they've moved in the furniture and, you know, the leg of a sofa has been dragged across the wall, and then we've had to send an artist to touch something up. So we want it to be the last thing to go in anyway.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I would think show houses are the scariest when everything's being installed in two days and everything's going up the staircase where our wallpaper has already been installed. Those can be scary.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

So tell me about what has created this efficiency in China. I would think even the transportation alone back and forth would require so much time.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Well, we did far fewer custom orders back then. In most cases, we were just buying the wallpaper that they painted, and it was beautiful. And even when Mike and I were kids, we sold a lot more panels that were just in stock. Mario Bora would walk in and say, I need 25 panels to fit this dining room.

[Jennifer Gracie]

And.

[Unnamed Family Member]

And we would just sell the next 25 panels in stock. So as our lead times got faster, we started doing many, many more custom orders. And eventually we stopped stocking any designs at all. It was only about 12 years ago or so that we decided to start stocking some designs again, thinking that people would like to just maybe buy a couple of panels to frame. We were surprised by the fact that we sold quite a lot of full rooms on an emergency basis. I'm hosting an emergency wedding this weekend and I need to immediately install a dining room. So we were surprised by the popularity of the designs in stock again. So now we stock 12 designs, and we're about to add a few more. But still, the majority of the orders we do now are custom. People are willing to wait a few months to have exactly what they want.

[Dennis Scully]

To have exactly what they want. Because that's part of the, the lure of all of this.

[Jennifer Gracie]

And as far as evolution, the evolution of efficiency at our China Studio, with all due respect to previous generations, it was a bit of a cottage industry type of approach in previous decades. And our current leadership at our China studio, they have like business degrees and all those, all those things.

[Dennis Scully]

I see.

[Jennifer Gracie]

And so they think about things like running like a business and running things as efficiently as possible. So yeah, I like to have us on the same page with regard to all those good things. And yeah, yeah, that's, that's a big thing, a big part of it.

[Dennis Scully]

Now, how big a team is it that works on the product?

[Jennifer Gracie]

There's about 150 really on staff there right now. So vast majority of which are artists and then some managerial and then our owners that we work with on a regular basis.

[Dennis Scully]

And are they solely producing for you or are they okay, yeah, hence the lead times. That's wow. Okay, now I understand a lot better. That's really tremendous. And did that grow and evolve over time? Were you always able to sort of feed them that level of business where they could build out to that scale?

[Jennifer Gracie]

It's the biggest it's ever been.

[Dennis Scully]

Is that right?

[Jennifer Gracie]

I would say, yeah, yeah, pretty much. I remember in fairly recent history it was about half the size of the staff, was about half the size maybe 10 years ago, something like that.

[Dennis Scully]

So was there a moment in time or was there something that led to this tremendous growth in that 10 year period?

[Unnamed Family Member]

We've gotten busier and we've asked them to grow.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Gracie]

And we, you know, we've doubled down on hand painted wallpaper. It's our, it's our signature product. We do it well. The demand is there. So of course as a business it makes sense to focus on that. We weren't thinking that on Liberation Day quite as much. We were like, what have we gotten ourselves into?

[Dennis Scully]

All of our eggs in that.

[Unnamed Family Member]

When will antiques come back into popularity? Wait a second.

[Jennifer Gracie]

But yeah, so I do love antiques.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I am waiting for them to come back into favor because I'm constantly looking for and buying antiques. But they do seem to have fallen out of favor. We used to have a much bigger showroom in the D and d building, about 10 or 12,000 square feet. It was the entire side of the building where we had a room just for rose medallion porcelain. We had a room just for blue and white porcelain. We had A locked room for real treasures that were incredibly valuable. We had a room that was reserved just for incoming shipments of antiques because our parents used to go over to London every couple of months to fill a container of antiques. We had a room that was just lacquer. And as a little kid, you know, five, six, seven years old, I just used to love to walk around and read all the tags and look at everything and I just always loved it. Always loved the antiques business.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, I'm sure. And so can you pinpoint when the business started to transition? Because, I mean, to your point about antiques, there was this notion that this current generation wasn't going to be as interested in antiques. Your father. My father. Obsessed with antiques.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Well, Brian Gracie would tell you that mid century modern's a four letter word. I think there was. I definitely heard him express that sentiment in the early 2000s when the antiques business seemed to really slow down and.

[Dennis Scully]

It was all about mid century modern and you can't shake that off.

[Jennifer Gracie]

And there really was this sort of rage for it. And we did see that, that that was all first dibs kind of seemed to have, as I recall, kind of in the beginning. And of course now they're much more diverse. So, yeah, it was a shift. I think that I had a lovely.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Chat last week in LA with Tony Freund of First Dibs and he did say they seem to be making a comeback. I mean, it's certainly, I think mid century modern has antiques making a comeback. Yes, yes, yes.

[Dennis Scully]

Did he take responsibility for killing off the antique business with all the mid century modern?

[Jennifer Gracie]

No, just like us, they went where they.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Tony loves antiques too. And I had a lovely, lovely chat with Tony.

[Dennis Scully]

He's very nice.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yes. So, yes, I have hope and I think everything is cyclical, right? Everything really is. Everything that goes away does come back again. I think antiques will come back because I do think people appreciate a layered look. And the way I live at home, I love living among things that I have collected over the years because everything has a story. And I walk around my house and it brings back fond memories. I don't want to live in a home that was put together in a day. And I think I was listening to one of your recent podcasts talking about.

[Dennis Scully]

Designers who slow design.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Exactly. Exactly. Who don't want to finish a home but want their clients to continue adding as they go along, which I think is so important. So antiques can certainly add to that.

[Dennis Scully]

Let's go back and talk about the generations a little bit more because I want to talk about the two of you coming into the business. So Charles, Gracie, right, it sounds like, was the man that our great grandfather.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Your great, kind of built the business as we know him, as we know his family.

[Unnamed Family Member]

And then his two sons came in, and then our grandfather and great uncle.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Okay, they served in World War II, but domestically, as I understand it. Okay, but they got taken away from the business for that. And then they, you know, then they pretty much had their careers at Gracie. Both retired in the early 70s when my dad purchased the business from them.

[Unnamed Family Member]

And he was really young and he grew a mustache just so that people would take him seriously to look a bit older.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, he was very smart and ambitious and he really ran the business for many decades. And then Jen and I sort of took over about 10, 13 years ago.

[Dennis Scully]

And how was he in terms of the pressure that either one of you felt about coming into the business?

[Unnamed Family Member]

There was no pressure.

[Dennis Scully]

There was no pressure.

[Unnamed Family Member]

No, he never put any pressure on us at all. I knew that I wanted to do it from the time I was a toddler. I always loved it. But he never ever, he always says, in no generation have any arms been twisted. There's always been at least someone who wanted to do it.

[Dennis Scully]

So you were eager right from early childhood, you, Mike, went off possibly the law, possibly acting, right? Some other things.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Sowed wild oats, perhaps?

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yes, exactly. Okay.

[Unnamed Family Member]

He's still got a few wild oats.

[Dennis Scully]

But you thought about doing other things?

[Jennifer Gracie]

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I came to the family business right out of college, having thought about going to law school, but decided not to kind of dive right into that huge time and financial commitment. Not sure I wanted to be a lawyer. And, and so, sure, yeah, I'll go work for dad right out of college and see how that goes. But it just, I got a little antsy, felt like maybe I need some other experiences and that kind of thing. So I just kind of like, again, sowed my wild oats a little bit. And I was out in San Francisco. I worked at a multi line showroom, Shears and Window in San Francisco. And that was a great experience. They happened to rep Gracie hand painted wallpaper. So whenever a client asked about that, I was called over. And then I was pursuing an acting career. When I was out there, I had some gigs and came back to New York City. And by the way, dad, I could kind of use a day job while I'm trying to make a career of this. And here I am. You know, acting's a tough business.

[Dennis Scully]

It's a Tough business. Absolutely.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah. So here I am.

[Dennis Scully]

But ultimately you were glad that you stayed in the business.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, yeah. I had this lack of talent factor that was hurting my acting career.

[Dennis Scully]

So others might have decided for you, in other words, about your acting. Okay, okay. It's hard. That's. That's a tough. That's a tough business.

[Jennifer Gracie]

You know, I remember so many casting directors saying, mike, have you considered wallpaper?

[Dennis Scully]

Often they say that it's the third generation that brings the business down. Your fifth generation, you feel you're in the clear. You sixth generation.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Right. Zach, my son.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, Zach is right, but you're fifth. Zach is sixth. Right.

[Jennifer Gracie]

So when they say too old to fail.

[Dennis Scully]

Do you feel like you skip that generation? You have to worry about that or.

[Unnamed Family Member]

So far, so good. Right?

[Jennifer Gracie]

The pressure's on, man. You know, it's like, we don't want to be the one to blow it.

[Dennis Scully]

So when your father did all of this great analysis and really looked at the business, what did he come away thinking the business could be, should be. And how has that, that notion evolved since the two of you took over?

[Jennifer Gracie]

Well, he clearly knew that antiques was a strong business. And I think he too had a, like Jen had a real passion for buying and finding antiques. But I do remember a particular quote in that, in that summary of the, you know, handwritten spread. It's a spreadsheet, but it's handwritten. You know what I mean? But anyway, the summary of it was one paragraph and it had a sentence that said about hand painted wallpaper. This is Gracie's bonanza. And so he recognized, I think, the value in that business and how popular it was and how special it was and that we weren't meeting demand, basically. So I think that says a lot for where we are today.

[Dennis Scully]

So that was the feeling at the time that you couldn't even keep up with the demand.

[Jennifer Gracie]

This is like 1972, 73.

[Dennis Scully]

And that's when you began to ramp up with the family operation in China.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, and he probably was the first one to. Oh, no, that's not true. I guess my great uncle Jim visited the studio when it was based in Hong Kong. But yeah, dad made it a point of making regular visits to the China studio from early in his career.

[Dennis Scully]

And when you took over, what were the changes? Improvements. I mean, what were you keen to do? I mean, Jen, you're very active on social media for the company and the marketing efforts.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Well, we've expanded the repertoire of designs so significantly. That's just a huge change since Mike and I took over.

[Mike Gracie]

We're taking a quick break from the.

[Dennis Scully]

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[Mike Gracie]

And now back to the show.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and you also expanded where people can come and see you multiple showrooms. I don't know when you built out.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We decided to open The Dallas showroom. It 12 or 13.

[Jennifer Gracie]

2013. It opened. Yeah. And then 2017 for LA. Yeah, yeah. I mean when we opened here. So we reopened at the D and D building after, let's see, it was 15 years. We'd been out in other locations in Manhattan and I had been kind of trying to get back in, but they were full and the.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, those are the days.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, the leasing agent kind of sort of wouldn't return my calls and you know, that was the vibe and, and so we just kind of waited and then the opportunity came in the recession around 2008 and so we thought we should try and do this in other markets. So the first one was Dallas and the next one was Los Angeles. So we'll see what happens next.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Because it is such a complicated product to sell, nobody sells it as well as we do ourselves. Dallas was the first place that we were ever represented in a multi line showroom. David Sutherland, when he was a manager at John Edward Hughes, called my dad. Now we're going back and said, hey, I think maybe I could sell your wallpaper in Dallas. So that's how we ended up at our very first multi line showroom back in the 70s.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Sullivan was the manager of John Edward Hughes back in the 70s, I think when we first were repped there.

[Dennis Scully]

I love that. And he was so passionate and so enthusiastic that he would. Yeah. If he thought your product could sell, he would be all over it.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Oh yeah, we have him to thank for getting us to Dallas in the first place.

[Mike Gracie]

That's fantastic.

[Dennis Scully]

So I wondered why Dallas was the first. Okay, so. So thank you, David Sutherland, for bringing it there.

[Jennifer Gracie]

When we did our book talk in Dallas, David Sutherland. David and I gave Q and A. And it wasn't a question, it was a statement, a loving statement about Gracie and the history. And he spoke so kindly about dad and their relationship over the years and he had an amazing story about an antique piece that. Do you remember the details of the antique piece, Jen?

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yeah. He bought a Korean statue from our dad many decades ago that he credited with good luck and he still has it in his pool area. He also called us these kids during our talk. Yeah, it was really sweet. He and Ann came to the talk and they sat in the first row. It was a total surprise and very, very nice. We were touched.

[Dennis Scully]

So Dallas was the market and then la. So what led you to la?

[Unnamed Family Member]

We decided we were considering opening in Boston or la. We were going to choose either coast and we decided Boston made far less sense since it's quite close to New York and Boston designers could get here much more easily than LA designers could. So we chose la.

[Dennis Scully]

And does it make a tremendous difference when someone can come and see installations and see the. I mean, I would imagine there are challenges for a road rep with this kind of product.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yes, it's a huge difference for people to see our large display wings which show two panels, you know, a six foot wide width. And seeing a full room is always really helpful for people.

[Dennis Scully]

You mentioned earlier that back in the day Mario Bora was coming in and if there were some panels in stock, he would buy those. So is there a meaningful in stock program of things that you've created? And tell me about that huge.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We sell panels that are in stock just about every day. We have 12 designs at this point, about to be 14 or 15.

[Dennis Scully]

Were those designs that you felt confident enough based on their track record to say, sure, let's lean into these?

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, we start with the most popular ones and it really got positive reinforcement in terms of growth of stock sales and we've sort of ventured into sort of additional categories. And I think you show them the stock designs and then they say, oh, this might just be perfect. And so it's kind of. You can, you can have it self fulfill a little bit.

[Dennis Scully]

And is digital printing knocking on the door or is someone representing digital printing knocking on the door saying, hey, these designs, we only have three.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We only have three designs that are digitally printed.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes. Tell me more.

[Unnamed Family Member]

We will never go broadly into it, but one of the things, as you mentioned, I do run the Instagram, I refuse to delegate it, which is probably a bad idea.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you seem to have built a huge following. I mean, so I don't know if that's such a bad idea.

[Unnamed Family Member]

But one of the results of it is I receive so many DMs from people who adore what we do, which is so touching. But then they also say I will never be able to afford a room of Gracie, which breaks my heart. And we will never have a Gracie for Target line. That's never going to happen. But we wanted to do something beautiful that was more attainable. And it's still not inexpensive, but it's beautiful and less expensive than hand painted. So it is only three designs. We're not going to expand it broadly, but it's three designs and each comes in three different colorways and it doesn't repeat for 18ft. So that's all we're doing.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Jennifer Gracie]

And they're all unique, so they're not, it's not, it's not a printed copy of one of the special hand painted designs.

[Unnamed Family Member]

They're all unique. None of them are the same as our hand painting.

[Dennis Scully]

Right, okay.

[Jennifer Gracie]

But they are beautiful and made some for, for some amazing installations, I'm sure.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I'm actually putting one in my bedroom in la. It's pretty, it's. It's very dramatic and dark and moody. I told my husband the walls are going to be. He's not allowed to be.

[Dennis Scully]

Don't let this wallpaper influence your mood because I can't have that. Well, so you said no to, to Target. I don't know if they came calling, but. But you said yes to Ruggable.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I didn't mean that person.

[Dennis Scully]

No, no, no. Why don't.

[Unnamed Family Member]

No Target.

[Dennis Scully]

I'm joking. But I mean, you did a collection with Ruggable. Tell me about that. And what was the idea behind that?

[Jennifer Gracie]

It's your fault, Dennis.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, tell me more.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Didn't you interview. Let's see, who was it that had just dropped their collection with Ruggable? Sanderson.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. Sanderson had done a collection and I actually interviewed the founder of Ruggable. She.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Heard her stuff.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Heard that too, sure. Yeah. And there's sort of the sense that it's kind of making its way into our.

[Unnamed Family Member]

One of our clients, Nina Tech had done a collection.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, yeah.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Justina Blakely had done a collection.

[Dennis Scully]

So you thought, we better get on this bandwagon. All the cool kids are doing ruggable collection.

[Unnamed Family Member]

They pursued us.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yeah. We've never, we've never reached out to anyone about a collaboration people.

[Dennis Scully]

You know, we'll take calls. Sure. We'll answer the phone if it rings. But I mean, beyond that.

[Unnamed Family Member]

But again, we just thought, well, what a nice way for people to include something by us that they will keep for a very long time that is a whole lot less expensive than a room of our wallpaper yeah.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Brugable team was very professional. They were so nice, incredible to work with. And you had amazing design sense. I mean, we had very constructive design meetings with them. And sure, it was a great part.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yeah, they were so great and professional to work with.

[Dennis Scully]

So we mentioned that the next generation is just on the other side of this door. Does that generation express to you things they wish they could do or changes that they want to make? I mean, I'm always curious with a heritage brand, thinking about, how do we keep this fresh? How do we keep this of the moment? You referenced Sanderson. They face that same issue. How do we keep innovating, creating newness?

[Unnamed Family Member]

I'm sure my son Zach will have all sorts of plans as he gets older and maybe after Mike and I retire, but I know that right now he's. He just loves the history so much. Also, he loves antiques as much as I do, so I hope to teach him a whole lot about antiques. He's just so happy to be involved. And again, his arm was not twisted. He started to pursue another path as well. And it was surprising to us when he called from Key West, Florida, where he had been working on fishing boats and working in restaurants and doing other things, and said, hey, you guys, would you consider it? So that was very welcome.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah. And I can tell you Zach is as passionate, if not more so, than us jaded old veterans in the industry. So we do have that. We definitely have a man with some passion for this business. There's no doubt about it.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, it's interesting because coming to see you the other day, Mike, and spending. I spent the whole day in the D and D building just by chance, and I sort of went floor to floor and. And bumped into a bunch of people. And for all of the talk, mostly coming from me about the challenges in the D and D building, I was surprised how many designers I bumped into over the course of the day. And I was reminded of what a destination the building still is. And so often I'm having these conversations about the future of design centers and the future of this industry tied to so closely to the future of design centers and what it means. And for all of the empty space there is to be had here in the D and D building, if you're looking for a showroom, unlike the time when Mike was calling on them to get back into the building, right now, they'd be all too happy to have your call. But, I mean, it still felt like such a destination for designers.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I do still have designers tell me that they Spend the day here. So it's true.

[Dennis Scully]

But I wonder in thinking about. So you mentioned the very limited selection of digital printed product, and that is what that is. You've got the in stock program, you've got a collaboration that you do with Alexa Hampton. She's got some designs. Do you think about doing more designer collaborations? Is that an avenue that seems like a reasonable and desirable way to grow?

[Unnamed Family Member]

We have two designs that are in development right now with Kevin Isbell, who's become a good friend of mine, moved from New York to LA a year before I did. So those are very exciting designs. But, yes, we have some ideas of other collaborations we would like to do well.

[Jennifer Gracie]

So back to the question. Jen creates so many amazing designs. So, yes, there's these really special relationships that we have and partnerships with designers and things like that, but we're also creating so many new unique and beautiful designs. And as far as visiting visibility, with the book having come out in September, we put a huge amount of resources into making that happen. And it seems to be paying off. And so, you know, that's also a big part of our strategy right now that we're seeing pan out a little bit, is really getting people to be aware of Gracie and be able to see all those beautiful rooms in the book and things like that.

[Dennis Scully]

And was that the hope with the book?

[Jennifer Gracie]

Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, there's a story to tell, of course, right? And that was so important to us. And we're so glad that we got to do a little bit of the history and the heritage of the brand going back and some of the things that we've talked about in this.

[Unnamed Family Member]

And we wanted our dad to write part of it. We didn't tell him in advance because we thought his answer would be no if we asked him too far in advance. But he's such a good writer. And so we asked him at the 11th hour and he came through. We knew he would. And so he did the intro and lots of the history, and he did a great job. So it's wonderful that he is one of the authors of the book. And you know what we're so lucky about? I feel lucky that we are such a close family. I hear people talk about family business as being so difficult, and we love each other and we get along so well, and we are so lucky about that, that we have a good time doing this together.

[Dennis Scully]

How did that happen? I mean, was there something that you were. That your dad did in raising you or in instilling certain. I mean, how did it happen? That you do get along so well. Cause so many family businesses, they're at each other's throats.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I mean, we just always got along well as kids. We're each other's only siblings and so.

[Dennis Scully]

It was just always that way.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Yeah, we got along pretty well. He punched me in the nose one time when we were kids.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yeah, well, she said she wanted to have a fight.

[Dennis Scully]

So you said okay.

[Jennifer Gracie]

I mean, and I made sure that she really meant it. And then I punched her in the nose.

[Dennis Scully]

But that was years ago and there'd been nothing like that since last week.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Dennis, haven't I heard sometimes yes means no. Have I heard that somewhere before?

[Dennis Scully]

So easily.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Miss her. We got along great. We had a clubhouse together. When I got my driver's license, I used to take him all over the place with me. I took him to parties with me. Our parents didn't have to teach us to get along.

[Dennis Scully]

So Jen, in wrapping this up, we talked about why this is a business that is a product that is coming out of China that is hand painted by artisans multiple generations. And the art form itself has been around for hundreds of years. But drive home for us why this is a business that you couldn't just pick up and move to an American production facility for a host of reasons. But. But tell us why this is a Chinese based business for a reason?

[Unnamed Family Member]

Sure. Well, it is a Chinese art. So it was invented in China for export. It wasn't even made for Chinese taste. It was made and immediately exported on trade ships and it was mostly brought to Europe and it was the most coveted thing you could possibly have if you were a well to do person in England, Ireland, the Americas. Because it was a time in the world where travel was impossible. It took months, it was extremely costly. And so to have something as beautiful as this on your walls was just the height of fashion. And so it was always made there and always will be made there. In fact, when things like this were made in Europe, it is not Chinese wallpaper. It is what is known as chinoiserie. Right. It was made to em something made in China. So we will always continue to make it there. I'm proud of it, proud of our artists there.

[Jennifer Gracie]

There may be a handful of people in the United States that know that particular craft and skill, Finding them in the right place at the right time and wanting to do such a thing on a full time basis. I'm not sure we know that this is the source for this industry and this particular craft. And I think that, you know, having these kinds of things in the United States, in our country is what makes us richer. You know, we have these things from other cultures and other places and, you know, special and unique things. Champagne, for example. Right. We import that because it's special and it's from the champagne region of France and we want to have our champagne. Right. So, so yeah, this is just, this is something that we have to keep.

[Dennis Scully]

Alive is how you feel. We have to keep this alive.

[Unnamed Family Member]

I think the fashion industry as well feels that way, that some of the most beautiful textiles in the world are made in China. I think they're also very dependent on the skills of craftsmen over there.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, as we said at the beginning of this conversation, so here we are, Monday, May 12th. We've put a 90 day pause on the, the, on the tariffs. Sounds like 30% versus 145. And we'll, and we'll see what happens. But it certainly seems a lot more encouraging and positive and your family business can continue to thrive.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Yes, we breathe a sigh of relief to that, that is for sure.

[Dennis Scully]

Now, was that your way of suggesting, Mike, that there is champagne after this conversation that we're going to have that in celebration of the suspension?

[Jennifer Gracie]

We couldn't afford it. We got sparkling wine.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay, okay, okay. Little air out of the balloon there. But no, but I'm relieved to be having this conversation than the conversation that we thought we might be having.

[Unnamed Family Member]

And I'm sure you will be hearing a lot of happiness from lots of people in the industry, Dennis.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, the industry seems to have turned a corner. I mean, and I hope that this lasts and that we get through this time because we had enough challenges already without. Absolutely, yes. Well, I'm thrilled to get to speak with you both and I thank you so much for allowing me to come into the office and talk with you.

[Unnamed Family Member]

Thank you too.

[Jennifer Gracie]

Thank you so much.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join.

[Mike Gracie]

Our BoH Insider community for access to.

[Dennis Scully]

Online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.