Behind the Scenes | 5

Summary

Business Wars: Behind the Scenes | Episode 5 Summary

Release Date: January 8, 2025

Introduction to the Behind-the-Scenes Episode

In the fifth episode of Business Wars, host David Brown takes listeners on an exclusive journey behind the scenes of the acclaimed podcast. This episode delves into the creation, writing, and production processes that have made Business Wars a beloved series exploring corporate rivalries and their profound impacts on consumers and society.

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The Origin of Business Wars

Karen Lowe shares the foundational story of Business Wars, highlighting the vision behind the podcast’s inception. She states:

"We wanted a show that told the real drama behind some of these business rivalries, the characters that drove these businesses and the strategies and the things they did to take each other down or push each other out of the way." [03:41]

Karen elaborates on the selection of David Brown as the host, praising his storytelling abilities and prior collaboration on Marketplace.

David Brown reflects on his initial hesitation due to academic commitments but ultimately expresses gratitude for joining the project:

"Looking back on it, you know, you think about those moments in your life where like, you know, the sliding doors thing, that was one of those moments where I felt like, wow, what if I had just walked away from it?" [05:38]

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Building the First Season: Netflix vs. Blockbuster

Karen Lowe recounts the decision-making process behind selecting Netflix versus Blockbuster as the inaugural series topic. Drawing from her conversation with her husband and author Gina Keating, they secured Gina to author the scripts for this pivotal story.

Gina Keating describes the challenges of adapting her book into a podcast format:

"I had to teach me the entire time, which I'm sure was incredibly irritating. When I look back at some of our emails and some of the script notes, I realized I was driving her crazy." [08:04]

She details the intense writing period, characterized by tight deadlines and the necessity to invent characters to visualize real events.

David Brown acknowledges the rigorous editing process and the collaborative efforts that shaped the first season:

"The sound design... makes all those different characters come to life. I couldn't even believe it." [12:07]

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The Writing Process and Challenges: Gina Keating's Experience

Gina shares insights into transitioning from journalism to podcast writing, emphasizing the creative hurdles and growth she experienced. She explains the need to balance factual accuracy with engaging storytelling, particularly when depicting behind-the-scenes corporate maneuvers.

"I felt every time, like the sweat pouring down my body every time I had to do that. So she had to really get after me to do that." [09:05]

Her collaboration with Karen Lowe was pivotal in navigating these challenges, ultimately leading to compelling and dynamic storytelling.

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Crafting the Sound: Tristan Donovan and Kyle Randall's Contribution

The episode features an in-depth look at the audio production process with Tristan Donovan, writer at Yellow Ant Media, and Kyle Randall, the podcast’s sound designer.

Tristan Donovan discusses the importance of the cold open in establishing the episode's tone and engaging listeners:

"We want to hint or show the business competition that's central to the story. We want to introduce the main characters... and we also want action, some kind of drama with some stakes." [23:30]

Kyle Randall breaks down the meticulous sound design techniques used to create immersive experiences:

"The sounds that I use, whether they come from a library or we record them ourselves, they don't necessarily work in the scene without some changes." [28:38]

He illustrates this with the creation of the North Face versus Patagonia opening scene, highlighting how layered sound effects and strategic audio placement enhance the storytelling.

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Engaging the Audience: Interview with Josh Gondelman

A standout segment features comedian Josh Gondelman interviewing David Brown, offering a lighter glimpse into Brown’s personal preferences and the podcast’s impact on listeners.

Josh Gondelman playfully quizzes Brown on his choices between rival brands, revealing personal anecdotes and preferences:

"If we were to ask you Dunkin versus Starbucks, obviously you'd say Dunkin." [38:01]

David Brown shares heartfelt reflections on listener feedback, emphasizing the podcast's role in fostering connections and meaningful conversations:

"When we record Business Wars, I try to imagine visualize the listeners out there because I find it helps with the performance of a script in a rather solitary studio. Your message is a gift to me." [47:24]

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Listener Impact and Final Reflections

The episode concludes with David Brown reading a poignant listener message from Kentucky, illustrating the profound personal impact Business Wars has on its audience. Brown's heartfelt response underscores the podcast's role in creating shared experiences and educational opportunities for families.

"In ways big and small, you've made Business Wars something special. I think of you as part of the family and you've made this journey more precious than any of us could have imagined." [47:44]

Brown extends gratitude to the listeners, inviting further engagement and episode suggestions, thereby reinforcing the community-centric ethos of Business Wars.

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Conclusion

Behind the Scenes | 5 offers an intimate look into the collaborative and creative processes that drive Business Wars. Through candid discussions with key team members, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the meticulous effort involved in crafting each episode. The episode not only highlights the podcast’s commitment to storytelling excellence but also celebrates the meaningful connections formed between the show and its audience.

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Key Quotes:

• Karen Lowe: "We wanted a show that told the real drama behind some of these business rivalries, the characters that drove these businesses and the strategies and the things they did to take each other down or push each other out of the way." [03:41]

• Gina Keating: "I had to teach me the entire time, which I'm sure was incredibly irritating. When I look back at some of our emails and some of the script notes, I realized I was driving her crazy." [08:04]

• Tristan Donovan: "We want to hint or show the business competition that's central to the story. We want to introduce the main characters... and we also want action, some kind of drama with some stakes." [23:30]

• David Brown: "When we record Business Wars, I try to imagine visualize the listeners out there because I find it helps with the performance of a script in a rather solitary studio. Your message is a gift to me." [47:24]

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Unlocking the Full Experience

For listeners eager to explore more, Business Wars is available on the Wondery App and other major podcast platforms. Subscribers can access all episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus.

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Credits:

• Host: David Brown
• Guests: Karen Lowe, Gina Keating, Tristan Donovan, Kyle Randall, Josh Gondelman
• Producers: Emily Frost, Kelly Kyle, Grant Rutter
• Sound Design: Kyle Randall
• Executive Producers: Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie

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Business Wars continues to captivate audiences with its in-depth exploration of corporate rivalries, brought to life through expert storytelling and immersive audio design.

Transcript

[David Brown]

Wondery subscribers can binge all four episodes of Business the Unraveling of Boeing early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts Seven years ago, me and some very talented colleagues of mine set out on a journey without an obvious destination, with a lot of ideas and not a lot of time. We started a little podcast called Business Wars. In those five years, we've explored rivalries from the worlds of fast food and video games, the tumultuous automobile industry, the cutting edge of computer technology, and life saving vaccines that changed the course of a global pandemic. Hopefully you've learned a little more about the things you buy and the men and women who bring them to you. But today we wanted to take a moment to lift the curtain to explore how we make our show and why we love it so much. We hope you'll stick around as we take you behind the scenes of Business Wars. You know, your team spends over half their time writing and we all know how that happens. One confusing email turns into 12 confused replies in a meeting to get all lined up again. Well, Grammarly is a trusted AI writing partner that saves your company from miscommunication and all the wasted time and money that goes with it. What I love about Grammarly is that it doesn't just correct grammar, it helps you strike the right tone for your audience so you can improve both the substance and the style of your writing. And you know, four out of five professionals say Grammarly helps them get buy in and action through their communication. Plus it integrates seamlessly across 500,000 apps and websites so there's no cutting, no pasting, no context switching. Join over 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to get results on the first try. Go to Grammarly.com enterprise and learn more. Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI this episode is brought to you by State Farm. You've got to be kidding. It's something you might say when your small business has a problem, but that won't get you the help your business needs. What you should really say is something that can help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Their agents are ready to help you with your claim. To help you get back in business on the phone or in person. Your State Farm agent is there to help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Foreign I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars. You know I smile every single time I get to say that. On our show, we like to take you into the origin story of the companies we cover. Well now, we wanted to bring you in on our own origin story. Tell the truth, I wouldn't even be here if it weren't for my guest producer, Karen Lowe. Karen helped develop the original concept for Business wars, and she's been here since day one. Karen, welcome to Business Wars.

[Karen Lowe]

Thanks for having me.

[David Brown]

Thanks for having me. You know, after all these years, you're finally on the show. So I never asked you this, but why did you pick me to host Business Wars? I think that sort of came out of the blue when you called me up that day.

[Karen Lowe]

Well, I was working with Wondery to develop Business wars, and we wanted to create a show that wasn't just another peek inside a Corner office with CEOs giving us their words of wisdom or talking heads. We wanted a show that told the real drama behind some of these business rivalries, the characters that drove these businesses and the strategies and the things they did to take each other down or push each other out of the way. And I wanted a storyteller. I wanted a host who could make that come alive. So after working with you on Marketplace for a few years, I knew that you weren't just a host, you were a storyteller. So there was really only one choice for me, and that was you.

[David Brown]

It was so much fun to be a part of that program at the time, and you were such a big part of that. When you called up, I thought, and this is true, I thought maybe this was a chance to work with you again on a one off that we'd be doing, like, maybe, you know, a show. I didn't even realize that you had in mind, like, a podcast series. That's how clueless I was. And so that it was like, okay, so can we. We'll talk next week, and we'll be like, what? Really? And off we went.

[Karen Lowe]

Well, let's back up just a second, because when I called you, you didn't actually say yes right away because, like, in addition to your law degree, you were in the process of writing your dissertation to get a PhD in journalism. Like, who does that, really? But anyway, you, of course, were doing this. You didn't use your law degree. I'm pretty sure you're not using your PhD. But anyway, you had to get it, and you had a deadline to write your dissertation, and you said you couldn't do it. And so I was kind of bummed about it, and I kind of sat with it for a minute, and then I called you back and I said, when is your dissertation due? And you told me, and I think it was like mid April or something.

[David Brown]

Yeah, that's right. That's great.

[Karen Lowe]

Yeah. And so I said, okay, let's start after your dissertation is due. And so we did.

[David Brown]

That's so funny. It's all coming back to me now. It's amazing. Well, it's been one wonderful ride, that's for absolute sure. And I gotta tell you, I am so glad that I said yes. I mean, looking back on it, you know, you think about those moments in your life where like, you know, the sliding doors thing, that was one of those moments where I felt like, wow, what if I had just walked away from it? Once upon a time, when I was working on my studies, I actually wrote a paper that was accepted at a conference on how podcasts would never take off. So that shows you what I know, right? But in fact, business wars did just absolutely get picked up right from the get go. And getting to work with you, Karen, I have to say, and all the other people who work on the show has been maybe the biggest joy of it all, because this really is that team where everyone is such a delight to work with and they work so hard on it. There's almost like a passion without being corny about it. You know, there really is something special going on, and you got it started well, thank you.

[Karen Lowe]

And I agree, it's the team that makes it special really is. And everyone brings a different strength to the show, and the show is the beneficiary of all that.

[David Brown]

So we had a concept. We had a host, had a senior producer, we had a network. Karen, how did you land on Netflix versus Blockbuster as the first series?

[Karen Lowe]

We put together a list of business stories. There were maybe 15, 20 business stories that we'd like to tell. And we knew coming out of the gate it had to be really great if this was going to have legs. And so I was talking about it with my husband Steve, who was working at Reuters at the time, and Netflix versus Blockbuster was on the list. And he reminded me, you know, Gina Keating, who used to work with him at Reuters, wrote a book on this. And I was like, oh, that's right, she did. So I called up Gina and I explained to her what we were doing, and lo and behold, she said, yeah, she'll do it. I'm like, whoa. Okay, so we're gonna have our first series.

[David Brown]

Gina Keating, are your ears burning right about now?

[Gina Keating]

Yes, they are.

[Karen Lowe]

So, Gina, looking back, how did the process of writing that season about Netflix versus Blockbuster compare to, say, writing the book about it?

[Gina Keating]

It was a whole lot faster. If you remember, and really intense because I had no idea what I was doing. I was in graduate school at the time and I thought, oh, this is gonna be great. You know, my purpose of going to graduate school was to try to actually learn how to write something besides journalism, which I've been doing for 20, 30 years. And I wanted to do more books, I wanted to do movies and things like that. So when she called me, I thought, oh, this will be perfect. I'll learn how to write a podcast. But I had no clue how to write for what we were gonna do, which was sort of a dramatic, sort of old fashioned radio show. She had to teach me the entire time, which I'm sure was incredibly irritating. When I look back at some of our emails and some of the script notes, I realized I was driving her crazy.

[David Brown]

And then you got edits from Karen and she tore everything apart. Ouch. Tell us about that process. What'd you learn about writing for podcasts?

[Gina Keating]

Well, when you write for a company like Reuters and it's about business and the people who are reading it are CEOs and they get extremely sensitive about everything that you write. You tend to be really exacting and you don't ever want to put anything into a story that you can't support, so you get a little manic and not really creative. So when she would have me try to imagine what a particular scene was like, if you remember the one that we did at about the blockbuster people sending spies to stand outside of the Netflix hubs, I knew that that happened because the blockbuster people told me and the Netflix people told me. But if you remember, we actually had to like invent characters that would show up. I mean, I didn't know anything about these people. So we invented a lot of stuff that we knew happened, but we had to actually illustrate it. And that was incredibly difficult for me. I just felt every time, like the sweat pouring down my body every time I had to do that. So she had to really to get after me to do that. And also I went into the weeds a lot. Cause I, you know, I spent two years writing that book and I had way too much knowledge about what happened.

[David Brown]

That's so funny because I'm imagining yourself as that journalist sort of moving into this new area and you're sort of at war with yourself and you're watching the Google Doc where Karen is doing the edits. You're almost like trying to get into her head too, because that's part of the editing process. Right?

[Gina Keating]

It seriously was like being in each Other's head. And it was great because I've never experienced anything like watching what I consider her kind of like a professor correcting your work. And it's like simultaneously horrifying and also fascinating.

[David Brown]

And I understand the team wasn't easy on you, right? Why was that?

[Gina Keating]

I mean, we had to finish it. What was it, like eight weeks or something?

[Karen Lowe]

Yeah, it was a pretty crazy turnaround time. I think it was like, yeah, two months, something like that.

[Gina Keating]

Yeah. And if you remember, I think you were already producing the first ones while we were still writing the last ones. But it was grueling. The day that we finished it, I think it was February of 2018, and it was early in the morning. I didn't even know why. I walked into my kitchen from my office where my boyfriend was having breakfast, and I looked at him and I said, I have no idea what I'm doing. And pretty soon the whole world is going to know that I don't know what I'm doing. It was such a scary feeling because it felt really out there, you know, it felt like old time radio. I used to love those programs when I was a kid, but I didn't know if anyone was gonna go for that.

[David Brown]

I love how you're describing it as kind of old time radio because, yeah, you're right. I mean, we were using a lot of the techniques that come out of that tradition and kind of reinventing it for modern listeners. So finally the series airs. You know, it's off of the paper and into the earphones. What did you think, Gina?

[Gina Keating]

At first it was. I was scared to listen to it because I didn't know what it was gonna sound like. And I feel that way about almost everything that I write. It took me years to actually read my book. But then people started calling me and emailing me, and a lot of people were calling and emailing me. And the Blockbuster guys who were in the book were calling me and talking about how great it was and the fact that they were getting tons of calls from people talking about the show and the story. And they were so happy because finally there was some understanding of what really happened in their battle with Netflix. So, of course, that made me really curious about how it turned out. And then I started listening to it and I was shocked and really pleased at how you were able to make all those different characters come to life. I couldn't even believe it.

[David Brown]

Well, a big part of that, I have to say, I have to say, is the sound design. And we're gonna talk about that in A few minutes, I think I was also struck by the same things. Gina and I remember playing it for that first episode, Blockbuster versus Netflix for our kids on a long drive to West Texas. And the kids were quiet and listening closely, and I thought, oh, boy, this is gonna do well. I mean, this is really cool. We were all listening to this, and I could see them looking out the window, thinking about what was being said and all the things that were happening. And then when it was over, they said, what happened next? Let's go to number two. And I don't think it had been released yet, but in any event, yeah, I kind of had a sense that it was special.

[Gina Keating]

This was a great experience for me because I finished grad school and it gave me the courage to think, well, you know what? I can write a movie. And I did. After we did Business Wars, I really wanted people to see the people who we were talking about because they're very special. If it hadn't been for Karen, I never have had the guts to do it. So thank you, Karen.

[Karen Lowe]

We were both crazy. We had no idea what we were getting into, so turned out well.

[Gina Keating]

And the funny thing about it was, when I look back at some of the emails, I mean, you're a very straightforward person. But at the time, I don't think that I realized how stressed you were about this thing because I just. I kind of was like, well, this is kind of interesting and fun.

[Karen Lowe]

Blunt. Was I too blunt?

[Gina Keating]

No. It's actually kind of funny when we read, you know, when I read the emails now. And the thing that was kind of amazing is, I mean, like, when are we ever gonna have the founder of a company weighing in every single day on the way that we wrote the scripts? And I felt very well taken care of.

[Karen Lowe]

David, do you remember that first season?

[David Brown]

Oh, man. Yeah, I remember that first season, too. And I have to tell you, Karen, if you listen back to it, that first season is really quite different from what Business wars has sort of evolved to today. How would you describe the changes and how do you think that helped the series as the years went by? Right.

[Karen Lowe]

Well, we went through the most iconic battles, the Coke vs. Pepsi battles and those kind of things. But as Business wars became more successful, I think we had more resources, we started hiring more people. Since the kinds of big rivalries were diminishing, we had to find other kinds of business stories and different ways to tell those stories, which took us, I think, from the public arena where people saw it play out, to much more behind the scenes, where we got into the characters themselves inside the company and the struggles maybe they had within the organization before they even battled their rivals kind of thing. When we decided to go that route, it took us down different avenues of less obvious kind of business stories.

[David Brown]

I think too, the way that as you described, we started to sort of, as a team, started rethinking. Okay, what does that mean, the business wars concept and is it always the sort of Nike vs Adidas or Coke vs Pepsi are the obvious ones, you know, because there are so many other things that are happening out there. So I think that in a way it gave us more latitude and brought in more talent and more ideas. And so that's, I think, been reflected in the show. And I'm so grateful that you are still a part of all of this, Karen, because this has just been a marvelous experience for me and I think for a lot of listeners. Stay tuned as we speak to writer Tristan Donovan and sound designer Kyle Randall, who'll tell us how they take an episode from humble start to thrilling finish. As business owners and managers, you use software for your business every day. You use one piece of software to manage your customers, another to manage your employees, another to manage your finances, and the list goes on. You buy these pieces independently and hope they fit neatly together like a puzzle. And then you find out the hard way that they don't, and you end up with a mess at the heart of your business operations. Does any of this sound familiar? Well, fortunately, Zoho offers a solution to this chaos. It's called Zoho One. Zoho One is a suite of around 50 pre integrated business applications that fit together beautifully. So instead of dealing with disparate software from multiple vendors with multiple contracts and price points, you deal with one vendor with all the pieces of the business software puzzle neatly put together, offered at a very attractive price. Now, if this sounds interesting to you, you gotta check out Zoho 1 at Zoho 1, that's Z O H O dot O N E. With Zoho, you're not just licensing apps, you're licensing peace of mind.

[Tristan Donovan]

Nurse.

[David Brown]

When it comes to finding the best financial products, have you ever wished someone would do the heavy lifting for you? You know, take all that research off your plate? I sure have. And with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, well, that wish has just come true. The nerds already did the work for you, reviewing over 1,100 financial products like credit cards, savings accounts, and a whole lot more to bring you only the best of the best. You gotta check out the 2025 Best of Awards today at NerdWallet Awards. Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. One of our most popular fan questions we've received over the years is simply, how do you do it? How does a business war story go from conception to reality? Well, as with most things, it starts with the word. Writer Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant Media has been with our show since the very early days, crafting unforgettable stories with countless memorable moments. We sat down with Tristan to find out how he created some of the most harrowing scenes in Business wars history, including the opening moments of the North Face versus Patagonia.

[Kyle Randall]

Patagonia and North Face was a really different kind of flavor of competition compared to what Business wars usually does. And that made it a really compelling series to do so. You know, Coke versus Pepsi is very direct competition, for example. But Patagonia and North Face, they were almost like brothers in a way. They kind of came from the same place. The founders knew each other and were friends. They shared the same kind of values. It was almost like this brotherly competition where they're trying to kind of outdo each other slightly, kind of, you know, who can push their ideals the furthest sort. It wasn't your natural kind of market share clash, big fight of the titans kind of thing. It was almost this, we're friends, but we kind of want to be the greatest of the two. So it was really interesting from that point of view. Another really interesting thing about Patagonia and the North Face is they really were hobby companies. You know, little pocket money businesses for two climbers who just wanted money to spend climbing. You know, they do their business and then shut it down for a few months to go off climbing. And it turned into these global mega brands, not just because of their passion, but also because of wider trends in society. So it's kind of a very interesting model. It wasn't someone sitting down going, oh, I'm going to make a billion dollar company called North Face. It really didn't start like that.

[David Brown]

The opening scene of a Business wars episode, the cold Open, as we call it, is crucial storytelling, real estate. To kick off North Face vs Patagonia, Tristan crafted a scene exploring the genesis of both companies. The North Face founder Doug Tompkins and Patagonia founder Yvonne Chouinard are climbing the north face of Mount Temple in the Canadian Rockies. But back in 1962, they're just climbing buddies, not business rivals.

[Kyle Randall]

The opening scene of any Business wars episode, and especially the first one of the season, is about persuading People to invest their time in this show. You know, we have to capture listeners and prove to them that we're worth spending their time on. And there are three main things we kind of want out of a cold open. We want to hint or show the business competition that's central to the story. We want to introduce the main characters, and that could be people or it could be the companies that the show is about. But we also kind of want action, some kind of drama with some stakes and ideally, sound effect possibilities. So with North Face and Patagonia, when choosing this opening scene for the series, I knew episode one would really be telling about the fence founding of the two companies and how they came across the ideals they were founded upon. I kind of knew the ending had to be Yvon Chouinard and Doug Tompins going on their trip to Patagonia. And that meant we had to have a scene that predated that. I chose this scene to start North Face versus Patagonia because I wanted something with a lot of action. And the climb up Mount Temple had it all. You had kind of life threatening peril. You had a storm coming in, rocks falling down, thunder in the distance. So there was immediate danger, lots of sound effect potential. But for the story kind of side of it, you had the two founders of the company. You saw their relationship and how they were friends and what drove them, you know, desire to climb these impossible peaks. So this was a great way to introduce the two lead characters. Great way to have an engaging dramatic opening with the Challenger climbing Mount Temple, and also a way to foreshadow kind of the competition that would be coming between their companies.

[David Brown]

Writer Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant Media. For a business war story to truly come alive, those stirring words have to be molded into thundering, immersive audio. A business war scene needs to be engrossing, and to do that, it's not enough to just drop sound effects in and call it a day. The design is is dense, filled with small touches that create an environment that puts you in the center of the action. Well, our sound designer is Kyle Randall. He is a magician, a wizard. For the North Face versus Patagonia, Kyle had to dramatize a life or death moment that would lead to the creation of the two companies duking it out for outdoor apparel supremacy. Two men clinging to the side of a mountain. One slip up, and it could all be over. To realize this gripping scene, Kyle used all the tools at his disposal to make it feel like you too are clinging to the side of a treacherous, freezing mountain. We asked Kyle to break down this moment piece by piece to show how the magic of business wars is conjured up.

[Tristan Donovan]

I found Tristan's writing at the beginning of this episode super compelling, in large part because of the tone that he sets. It's so lonely and desolate up at this beautiful high altitude location. Here's a bit of what that script sounded like before any sound and music were added.

[David Brown]

It's 1962, and in the Canadian Rockies, American climbers Yvonne Chouinard and Doug Tompkins are taking on a formidable the north face of Mount Temple. At 11,600ft, the mountain towers over Lake Louise.

[Tristan Donovan]

So my thinking when I started in on the sound design was, how can I enhance this and make it something that draws the listeners in even more? To do that, I started thinking about what kind of music would be right added in some howling wind that kind of give the tone of the high altitude. And for both the music and the sound design, the goal is to give us information as listeners that we might not know yet. So even though we don't know that we're high up on a cliff face, we want to feel that way. And kind of maybe we don't know exactly what we're feeling, but we have that sense. So I chose something that was kind of beautiful but had some tension to it. And then also for each season of the show, I try to incorporate the time period and the setting into the styles of the music chosen. So in this case, the guitar helps to hint at the South American setting and to give us a sense of the tension right from the start. Then Also, since it's 1962, anything electronic might feel out of place. So it's kind of hitting that sweet spot.

[David Brown]

It's 1962, and in the Canadian Rockies, American climbers Yvonne Chouinard and Doug Tompkins are taking on a formidable challenge. The north face of Mount Temple. At 11,600ft, the mountain towers over Lake Louise. The north face is its coldest, iciest, and most unforgiving side. And that's exactly why Chouinard and Tompkins want to conquer it.

[Tristan Donovan]

So we open with music and wind together. And then the next sounds that come in underneath David's narration are the sounds of the climbing team in the background. So this is an example of where Tristan suggested something in the script just to kind of put in some sounds of them climbing. And so I decided to put them in before David actually mentions the climbing team so that we have a chance to hear the mountain and notice the climbers and the scene for ourselves. Before we learn exactly what's going on, the reason why we bring the sound in before David's narration mentions it. First of all, it's more engaging and interesting. It's really a best practice in sound design so that we have a chance to hear the thing and kind of engage with it as an unknown. And then we get filled in on what exactly it is. That makes it more interesting and gives us a chance to really picture what's going on before we get the fully clear picture of what exactly it is. Back to the scene.

[David Brown]

And that's exactly why Chouinard and Tompkins want to conquer it. Tompkins stretches his arm over his head and grabs the ledge above. He tightens his grip and starts probing with his right leg for a foothold. But the moment he finds his target, Chouinard shouts at him from below.

[Karen Lowe]

Rock.

[David Brown]

Tompkins immediately presses his body against the mountain's hard rock face. A split second later, a football, a wall sized lump of limestone, hurtles past him, headed for the valley floor several thousand feet below.

[Tristan Donovan]

In general, for both the voices and the other sounds, the goal is to make us feel like we as listeners are immersed in the action as much as possible. So here we're taking the perspective of one of the climbers when one calls out, rock. I adjusted the sound so that it feels like it's coming from a distance down below us, as if we're the lead climber and he's further down the cliff from us. Then, as we hear the rock falling, we want it to come from above us and then feel like it's almost on top of us. First with some debris falling that maybe got knocked loose as it started to fall. And then the sound of the rock whooshing down past us. And finally the echoes as it falls into the valley below, hitting walls as it goes down. In terms of those adjustments to the sounds, that can mean a lot of things. But basically, the sounds that I use, whether they come from a library or we record them ourselves, they don't necessarily work in the scene without some changes. So the rock falling is actually a combination of a bunch of different sounds. The debris, the bush as it falls past us, a few different types of hits, and even some deeper sounds and brighter sounds that are combined to give the nice cracks as it hits the walls and things. Then there are changes made to give us a spatial sense of where the sound is and how far away it is. The rock tumbling away down below was just a series of hits that all sounded about the same. But when I put it into the scene, I added panning, which is adjusting whether the sound is to our left or our right. That makes it feel like it's falling off to one side. Panning in particular is super important for all of these immersive scenes, since it tells us a lot about where the sound is coming from and gives us a sense of the space around us. I also added more reverb for echo and lowered the volume as it gets farther away from us. And I changed the tone of the sound in a few other ways to make it feel like it's at actually moving farther away from us.

[David Brown]

After two more hours of treacherous climbing, Tompkins and Chouinard stopped for the night and pitched their tent on a snowy ledge halfway up the mountain. This might be their first climb together, but from the moment they met, it was clear they were kindred spirits.

[Tristan Donovan]

As the scene changes locations and moves from place to place, there are transitions that need to happen to help reinforce the fact that we're moving from one to another. So in this next section of our clip, we change locations and move into a bit that's more driven by David's narration than what's happening around us. Tristan's writing here is a huge help, because he waits until they're hunkered down in their tent to get into that background narration that's coming. But to help sonically, I made sure that we hear them pitching their tent and getting in, and then added a little space and the final zip up to show that we're moving into the tent and to help us feel like we're heading into that new section. Then a little bit of added music also helps to signal that we're heading into some narration. And at this point, we're just going to talk about their past and their relationship. For a little while, we're sitting in the tent so the other sounds can fade out a little bit and let us concentrate on the words and the music.

[David Brown]

Both of them love being outdoors, living free and off the grid. They call themselves dirtbags, climber slang for adventurers devoted to scaling mountains. They lie in their sleeping bags, exhausted and about to drop off, when Chouinard suddenly sits up. You hear that? The wind's picking up. The two open the front of the tent and peer out into the moonlit sky. In the distance, they can see a storm, and it's heading right for them. TOMPKINS GULPS not good, not good. We need to get out of here.

[Tristan Donovan]

So as we build toward the ending, the idea is to up the drama. Tristan's writing does a lot here. Because you know, the wind's picking up, the storm is coming, they need to get off the mountain. But instead of having the music immediately feel dangerous, intense, I decided to start with something that was simple but raw. And it's mandolin, so it still has that sense of place, but it has a bit of danger. A calm before the storm.

[David Brown]

Not good. Not good. We need to get out of here.

[Tristan Donovan]

As soon as the line, we need to get out of here happens in the dialogue, that's where the music starts to swell. Not only to punctuate that point, but also move us out of that little bit of dialogue and into another section of narration. As the time is jumping forward and we're getting into them trying to get off of the mountain.

[David Brown]

He's right. Their tent is on an exposed ledge that's vulnerable to avalanche. They've got to get off this mountain before the storm hits.

[Tristan Donovan]

As we go from there, the music gets more intense to mirror the growing action. And the sounds in this section are placed really deliberately to mirror the peril that the characters are in.

[David Brown]

They race to pack their tent and begin their escape. They take turns leading the dark descent, relying completely on each other to find a safe route down.

[Tristan Donovan]

But then there are some key sounds of their descent put between phrases so that they pop and stand out. Like between just one mistake. There's a pause and then could be fatal. In that pause, I added a little sharp ice pick sound to keep their descent going and just up the tension a little bit. That kind of follows into thunder and falling debris, which then David fills us in on. So it's all this kind of dance between the narration, the sounds, and filling us in on what the sounds are.

[David Brown]

Rock crumbles beneath their feet. Stiff cold wind blasts their faces. Thunder rumbles ever closer. The cotton shirts under their jackets grow damp with sweat.

[Tristan Donovan]

Then there's a bit of a time skip as we finally get to the bottom. So the music has a job here. It needs to take us from the intense scene that we've been in to, okay, we're at the bottom, we're safe. So it gets lighter. We hear piano, which we haven't heard yet in the scene, and it's a bit of a moment of calm. And then, because we don't actually have very long until the end of the cold open, and we need to get that heightening of the drama and the excitement for the rest of the episode. The music again, needs to turn on a dime and turns in a more aspirational direction. We're now looking forward to the rest of the whole season and moving toward the sting out, which is the part where the music ends on a big crescendo and that will make the end of the cold open exciting and inspirational. Plus get us interested in hearing the rest of the story.

[David Brown]

Finally, as the sun begins to rise, the spent duo reach the foot of the mountain. They fail to conquer the North Face, but they've made it out alive. The close call deepens their bond, a bond between two climbers who will soon turn their dirtbag lifestyles into rival businesses. Patagonia and the North Face, two companies that will turn mountain gear into everyday wear while also challenging the very way business is done. You're listening to Business Wars. Make sure not to go anywhere because I understand comedian Josh Gondelman is going to be giving me quite the the grilling. Stay with us. Imagine getting a message from your favorite brand that feels like it was created just for you. Chances are they're using Attentive, the SMS and email marketing platform designed to help brands build and connect with their ideal audience. Catentive helps marketers create unique messages for every subscriber, transforming the consumer shopping experience and maximizing marketing performance. But how does it work? Well, you see, Attentive's AI learns what subscribers actually want based on their real time interactions with your brand. That means it customizes the content, tone and timing of every message so they always resonate. Are you ready to take customers on a journey created just for them? Visit attentive.combusinesswars to learn more. What separates the true leaders from the rest? It's not just vision and ambition. It's the courage to take the road less traveled. For those with a palpable passion for life who lead by example, there's the Range Rover Sport. The Range Rover Sport is a new dimension of sporting prowess where sophisticated refinement meets visceral power. A dynamic launch delivers maximal torque for increased straight line acceleration, and with rapid DC charging and an estimated all electric range of 48 miles, the range Rover Sport Plug In Electric Hybrid delivers thrilling performance with an electric edge. Build your Range Rover Sport@Land RoverUSA.com Visit LandRoverUSA.com to configure your Range Rover Sport. Explore the Range rover [e-mail].

[Josh Gondelman]

Hello friends, I'm Josh Gondelman. That's Gondelman with a D E L in the middle, not a D L E. And that's for if you want to write a fan letter or a letter of complaint after this episode. Today I'm not a guest. I'M the host. Sitting across from me virtually is someone I hope to be best friends with after the next 10 minutes. David Brown, welcome to business wars.

[David Brown]

Hey, Josh. I would be lying if I didn't say I am petrified with what you're about to do. I have no idea what you're about to spring on me.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's not so easy to be on this side of the business. Or is it?

[David Brown]

No, it's not. It isn't, Josh. Well, of course I don't know completely. Cause you haven't given me the questions, but I'm already terrified. The sweat on my forehead should give it away, but there we are.

[Josh Gondelman]

David, you're an expert on business, but you're also a consumer. Just like us, the common folk, desperately fumbling around to find the ripest avocado at the local corner store. Or one that's not ripe quite yet and will be able to eat in two days when we want an avocado, you buy stuff, though you have opinions. If we were to ask you Dunkin versus Starbucks, obviously you'd say Dunkin. And perhaps you'd share a few reasons why, like, munchkins are my life or Boston made me do it, or I just find Ben Affleck incredibly persuasive as a pitch man.

[David Brown]

You're so right about Duncan. I don't know how you knew that right off the top, but yeah, you're right, Duncan.

[Josh Gondelman]

Maybe I'm also a little bit speaking for myself. So I'm going to give you this battle and I'm gonna ask you to take a side in this war of businesses. Okay, so if we were, you said you'd Dunkin versus Starbucks. That's perfect practice. And all you need to do is give me the side you come down on and a couple reasons why there are no winners and losers in this game.

[David Brown]

Great.

[Josh Gondelman]

Well, there are no losers. You'll be the winner. Are you ready to play?

[David Brown]

Yeah, I'm as ready as I'm gonna be, I think.

[Josh Gondelman]

Let's stay with food for now. You had a season of business wars covering Taco Bell and Chipotle. So I must ask, when you stop into one of these places, are you going for a taco or a burrito? Which do you prefer?

[David Brown]

Ah, that's a good question. I'm gonna go for the taco. And the reason for that is a burrito sometimes seems a little bit much. Right. I do like crunchy tacos. And I know a lot of people like the soft tacos because they don't, you know, crumble in your lap when you're driving or whatever. I like the, the flavor, that corn crunch. And, you know, the other thing about the taco is that it seems to me, even though I guess this would apply to either. What I love about the taco is its pure simplicity. There's just something about taking a shell and stuffing it with something and you see what's in there.

[Josh Gondelman]

There's a transparency. It's like a pizza versus a calzone.

[David Brown]

Exactly. And I think of it as driving food, too, but I don't know why, but I put that bag right beside me in the passenger's chair and going down, eating tacos. I love it. So, yeah, tacos every day.

[Josh Gondelman]

And a taco behind the wheel, right? That seems like, oh, okay. Like this is at a stoplight. A burrito behind the wheel. That's a sentence for a eulogy.

[David Brown]

Yeah, exactly, Exactly.

[Josh Gondelman]

Excellent choice. Tacos over burritos. Listeners, take note. We're getting to know David as we go moving on from dinner or lunch onto dessert. Business wars covered. Ben and Jerry's versus Haagen Dazs. So the people need to know, do you prefer vanilla or chocolate ice cream?

[David Brown]

Okay, vanilla. And the reason for vanilla, I think that it's sublime. Chocolate just kind of hits you right. It's got a lot of flavor. But the vanilla, it's almost like it's more fun to eat because the taste kind of flowers, if you know what I mean. It's like a nice cologne or perfume or something. Too much is too much. But vanilla, it's sublime. Sublime is the word that comes to mind.

[Josh Gondelman]

That's beautiful. The subtlety of it.

[David Brown]

Yes, absolutely.

[Josh Gondelman]

I also think vanilla really lends itself towards. It's very accommodating to toppings in a way that chocolate sometimes fights with them.

[David Brown]

Absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing about that whole vanilla thing, you can taste the fake and you can taste the real, you know, in a way that maybe chocolate kind of covers some of that up. I love, love vanilla ice cream. And I'm a real sucker for ice cream, period. And it almost doesn't matter what brand. I'll eat anything. But I do like, I do like. I prefer vanilla over chocolate, for sure.

[Josh Gondelman]

Excellent. Do you have a go to mix in or topping, or do you just go vanilla plain and just savor that simplicity?

[David Brown]

You know, I, I, I savor the simplicity, but I think that something can be said for sprinkles, and I think it's because there's a certain nostalgic factor. For me, it looks festive and Fun and simple. And I. That really appeal.

[Josh Gondelman]

Beautiful.

[David Brown]

Boy, this is like poetry, man. I mean, I feel like I'm, you know, doing a little ode to some of my favorite things here.

[Josh Gondelman]

I think it's incredible. I think you're. Not only are you revealing a little bit about yourself to the listener, but I think you are making this beautiful case. You're saying, look, if you've got a vanilla ice cream, I'll take all comers.

[David Brown]

Yeah, if you've got it, my hand's up. So there we go.

[Josh Gondelman]

Okay, switching gears to all the times business wars has covered auto rivalries. Would you rather have a truck or a sports car for your day to day driving?

[David Brown]

For day to day driving. Day to day driving. That's a hard one. Because, you know, I'm a motorhead. I love cars and motorcycles and all that stuff. I think a truck is like a really great dog, I think. I mean, to me, if I'm spending long amounts of time behind the wheel, I'd prefer a truck. To me, there's a certain companionship that a truck provides, you know, and you get to know it. It gets to know you. It definitely does everything that you need it to do. And without a whimper, you know, that's the beauty of a truck. Sports cars tend to be a little needy. They really require a lot more attention. Attention to the road, attention to what's gonna inevitably break down because you're pushing it so hard. So I think a truck. And besides, I live in Texas, so there is really only one right answer here. Truck.

[Josh Gondelman]

It did sound a little bit. Your rationale and your love of a truck. A good truck did sound a little bit like a country song.

[David Brown]

Yeah, guilty.

[Josh Gondelman]

In this hierarchy, we've gone truck over sports car. Where does motorcycle fall in this? Because you mentioned motorcycles.

[David Brown]

Boy, that's tough. But I will say that some of my most favorite experiences have been on two wheels. I have so many very vivid memories of, like, driving down pch, coastal California and smelling the onions as I rode past Gilroy. You know, and you can. The sensory experience of riding a motorcycle is like nothing that I've ever been able to adequately convey to my friends who don't ride. When you're cruising on a motorcycle, you're hearing the rush of the wind, and it's almost. Almost like sailing in that regard. There's a certain little drone, the hoo. Like this, you know, and you can move up the revs. You. I have had experiences where I felt like I'm writing the song based on the pitch of the Engine at a certain speed. So it's almost a spiritual experience. So it's hard for me to compare. If you haven't tried it, Josh, oh, my gosh. You gotta give it a go. It's so much fun.

[Josh Gondelman]

I'm intrigued. I'm a very fearful person.

[David Brown]

Don't be afraid.

[Josh Gondelman]

Again with your poetry. You've made a case for me and I'm like, substantially intrigued, I think harder to savor a taco on a motorcycle.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah, there's that, there's that. But that's what your truck's for. So there you go.

[Josh Gondelman]

And when you said. When you said some of my favorite experiences have been on two wheels, I immediately thought to myself, I did once almost tip over my parents minivan when I was in high school. It's like, I wouldn't call it a favorite experience, but I have been on two wheels. So we have some common crap here.

[David Brown]

That's great.

[Josh Gondelman]

Next, Business war. Taylor Swift versus Scooter Braun. This is a great season of business wars. What's your favorite Taylor Swift song? The listeners need to know.

[David Brown]

Oh, boy, that's hard. Cause I really have a lot of respect for Taylor Swift and feel awful that when she started out, I regret to say that I wrongfully dismissed her because of the hype that was surrounding. I mean, everyone was falling over themselves about Taylor Swift. And this was at a time when she was transitioning from her success in country music to, you know, her pop sensation. Sure. That she's become. Would it be a bad answer to say bad Blood?

[Josh Gondelman]

I don't think so at all.

[David Brown]

I mean, to me, that one really resonated with me and it made such a big impression. My kids were listening in the backseat of the truck and they loved to sort of turn me on to music because they know how much I really love music. And that was the song that they used to pry away my resistance, you know, is Bad Blood. So it's got a certain sentimental, you know, significance to me. So I guess I'd have to say that that's great.

[Josh Gondelman]

So our final question of this segment. What is your favorite season of business Wars? I know it's hard to pick. It's like picking a favorite child in that we all do it privately but don't wanna do it publicly. But the one that maybe you had the most fun working on, or maybe the one where you learned the most.

[David Brown]

Mm, that's a hard one. Because you're right. You're right about the sort of the analogy of the kids. Except if my kids are listening, I Do not actually have a favorite. Okay, that was Josh talking.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I'm free to say that because I don't have any kids, I can just judge.

[David Brown]

I think that maybe I have a special fondness for Gibson vs. Fender. What I really liked about that season in particular was that I didn't know a whole lot of the backstory. I knew the little bits and pieces of it. And I love the idea of two companies that did head to head battle and are still doing head to head battle, but not cutthroat. That there is room enough in the marketplace. It's not a zero sum game, in other words, always. You know what I mean? It's not. You have a winner and a loser. You can have two winners. And I would say that despite the ups and downs of both companies, and because I know both brands and love them both for different reasons, I really loved the Gibson vs. Fender series.

[Josh Gondelman]

What a lovely answer. And I think that's a perfect place to conclude our episode. David Brown is the host of the award winning podcast Business Wars. I'm Josh Gondelman, host of this one segment of the award winning podcast Business Wars. Thank you for joining me. Should I. Should I hang up now?

[David Brown]

Josh, you were priceless. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Josh Gondelman]

Thank you so much, David. This was so much fun.

[David Brown]

As we wrap up our behind the scenes tour, I was trying to think of the perfect words to say thank you. Thank you for listening. Well, I got a message from a listener that touched me in a way. Well, so many of your stories do. It was from a listener in Kentucky. I want to read you her message, slightly edited for privacy. And then I'll read you my reply. The subject line, your podcast is our bonding time. Hello. My girls 12 and 10 asked me to find a way to contact you. Business wars has given us a chance to really bond. After my divorce, I was the sole breadwinner, so I was always working. This show has given me the chance to talk to them about how business works and how company culture can impact the final product. After every series, my daughters and I do a taste test to compare the two companies and to decide if the one we would rather work for has the product we prefer. My Younger1, age 10, always asks what the new series is. For our weeks together, she keeps hoping you'll do Lysol versus Clorox. Again, I want to thank you for all of the special memories your work has given my girls and me. Signed a listener in Kentucky and here's what I wrote back. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading your message just now and tell your daughter what an awesome suggestion. Lysol versus Clorox would make a great series. I'll share that idea with our production team. I'm genuinely touched by you reaching out and sharing how you and the girls listen to the podcast and make the concept come alive. How creative and fun. And as a dad myself, well, I can't think of many things more precious than those moments of connection. Those are forever. To be a small part of those memories means more than I can say. When we record Business Wars, I try to imagine visualize the listeners out there because I find it helps with the performance of a script in a rather solitary studio. Your message is a gift to me. I'll be thinking of y'all when I next get behind the microphone. From Austin and Los Angeles and Boston and San Francisco, from all the places where our team members work so hard on Business wars each week. Warm wishes to you and the girls and thanks again for reaching out. And if you have more ideas for episodes, we'd love to hear them. Yours truly, David and you know, I might say the same thing to you right now. As you're listening in your car on the way to work or coming home, on your walk, in the park, on the train, at the gym, or wherever you might be right now. In ways big and small, you've made Business wars something special. I think of you as part of the family and you've made this journey more precious than any of us could have imagined. From the bottom of our hearts. Thank you. If you like Business wars, you can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wondery you've been listening to behind the Scenes at Business Wars. Next time on Business Wars. Boeing is in trouble. In recent years, the aviation giant has prioritized short term shareholder gains over its engineer led culture leading to the crisis of the 737 max. Meanwhile, its chief rival Airbus struggles to fully capitalize on Boeing's misfortune fortunes as both companies vie for dominance in the commercial aviation market. I'm your host David Brown, Emily Frost and Kelly Kyle produce this episode. Our producer is Grant Rutter. Sound design by Kyle Randall. Special thanks to Gina Keating, Tristan Donovan and Josh Gondelman. Our senior producers are Karen Lowe and Dave Schilling. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie for wondering on January 5, 2024, an Alaska Airlines door plug tore away mid flight, leaving a gaping hole in the side of a plane that carried 171passengers. This heart stopping incident was just the latest in a string of crises surrounding the aviation manufacturing giant Boeing. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of damning scandals and deadly crashes that have chipped away at its once sterling reputation. At the center of it all, the 737 Max, the latest season of Business wars explores how Boeing, once the gold standard of aviation engineering, descended into a nightmare of safety concerns and public mistrust. The decisions, denials and devastating consequences bringing the titan to its knees. And what, if anything, can save the company's reputation now? Follow Business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge business the Unraveling of Boeing early and ad free right now on Wondery plus.