Chuck E Cheese vs ShowBiz Pizza | Where a Kid Can be a Kid | 3

Summary

Business Wars Episode Summary: Chuck E. Cheese vs ShowBiz Pizza | Where a Kid Can Be a Kid

Release Date: December 4, 2024
Host: David Brown
Production: Wondery

---

Introduction to the Rivalry

In this episode of Business Wars, host David Brown delves into the intense competition between Chuck E. Cheese and ShowBiz Pizza Place, two pioneering chains that redefined family entertainment by merging dining with arcade games and animatronic performances. Both brands introduced unique animatronic bands that became the heart of their identity: Chuck E. Cheese’s charismatic mouse, Chuck E. Cheese, and ShowBiz Pizza’s "Rock Afire Explosion" led by characters like Billy Bob the bear. Julia Roberts reminisces about her teenage years performing as Billy Bob on the Ellen Show ([01:13]).

---

The Rise and Struggles of Chuck E. Cheese

Chuck E. Cheese enjoyed nearly five decades of popularity by offering "eatertainment"—a combination of food, games, and animatronic shows that attracted families for celebrations and outings. However, by the mid-2000s, the brand began facing declining customer numbers. Ben Coley, senior editor at QSR magazine, explains that the surge in digital entertainment, such as smartphones and tablets, diverted children’s attention away from traditional arcade settings ([07:35]). Coley states, “The younger generation being disconnected with being eager to play those games kind of like in a public setting” ([07:58]).

---

Private Equity Acquisition and Attempts at Revival

In 2014, Chuck E. Cheese was acquired by the private equity firm Apollo Global Management in a leveraged buyout valued at approximately $1 billion ([08:30]). Under Apollo’s management, the company initiated several reforms:

• Operational Improvements: Streamlining processes to enhance efficiency.
• Restaurant Remodeling: Updating the physical appearance to attract a modern audience.
• Innovative Features: Introducing all-you-can-play programs and more open kitchen designs to create an engaging atmosphere ([08:43]).

Despite these efforts, the COVID-19 pandemic dealt a severe blow to the already struggling chain. In June 2020, Chuck E. Cheese filed for bankruptcy, overwhelmed by the inability to maintain foot traffic and incurring significant debt from the acquisition ([09:45]). Coley highlights that the pivot to off-premises sales, including the launch of PASQUALE’S Pizza and Wings, was an attempt to sustain operations by focusing on food delivery ([10:56]).

---

Current Strategies and Shifting Demographics

Post-bankruptcy, Chuck E. Cheese has been implementing new strategies to revive its fortunes. Coley discusses the introduction of a flexible membership model designed to offer value during economically uncertain times. This subscription service allows families to pay a fixed monthly fee for unlimited game play, positioning Chuck E. Cheese as a cost-effective entertainment option ([11:54]).

The chain is also targeting millennial parents who have nostalgic ties to the brand from their childhoods. Coley notes, “They want to bring that nostalgia factor with them,” indicating that these parents seek to share their cherished memories with their own children ([12:44]). Additionally, the menu has been diversified to include adult-friendly options such as wings, salads, and sandwiches, aiming to create a more inclusive environment for the entire family ([13:40]).

---

Potential IPO and Future Prospects

Although Chuck E. Cheese attempted to return to the stock market through a Special Purpose Acquisition Company (SPAC) merger, the deal ultimately fell through, leaving ownership status unclear ([14:05]). While there were rumors about the company being up for sale, no concrete developments have emerged, and the chain remains privately held ([14:25]).

Coley remains optimistic about the company’s future, emphasizing Chuck E. Cheese’s strong brand equity and cultural significance. He asserts that with the right marketing strategies, the chain can leverage its nostalgic appeal to sustain and potentially rejuvenate its presence in the family entertainment industry ([15:01]).

---

The Legacy and Evolution of Animatronics

Transitioning to a broader discussion, Brown introduces Ross Brackman, director of the American Treasure Tour Museum, who shares an in-depth history of animatronics. Brackman traces the origins of animatronics to ancient automatons and their evolution with the advent of electricity in the late 19th century. He credits Walt Disney with popularizing animatronics through innovations like Audio-Animatronics, first showcased in attractions such as the Enchanted Tiki Room and It's a Small World at Disneyland ([22:17]).

Brackman emphasizes, “Everything about Chuck E. Cheese when it was introduced was special because nothing like it had really been done before” ([23:30]), highlighting the chain’s role in bringing sophisticated animatronic technology to everyday communities.

---

Animating Culture and Nostalgia

Brackman discusses the dual perception of animatronics, noting that while some individuals are captivated by their lifelike movements, others find them unsettling. The "Rock Afire Explosion" from ShowBiz Pizza Place, featuring characters like Billy Bob and Mitzi Mozzarella, became iconic but were eventually retired, making these animatronics rare and highly sought after by collectors ([24:40]).

He explains that Chuck E. Cheese maintained two separate animatronic bands for a time, catering to different audiences, but eventually consolidated under one primary band as ShowBiz Pizza merged with Chuck E. Cheese ([25:08]).

---

Nostalgia and Modern Resurgence

The episode explores the resurgence of interest in animatronics through the lens of nostalgia and modern media influences. The success of the video game Five Nights at Freddy's, which reimagines animatronic characters in a horror context, has introduced a new generation to the allure and eeriness of animatronics. This cultural phenomenon has revitalized interest in the technology, bridging past nostalgia with contemporary pop culture ([36:13]).

Brackman observes that this blend of innocence and creepiness resonates with both older fans who cherish their childhood memories and younger audiences attracted by the horror elements ([37:48]).

---

Cultural Impact and Community Engagement

Brackman highlights events like BillyCon, where fans celebrate characters from the Rock Afire Explosion, showcasing the deep-rooted subculture surrounding animatronic entertainment. This dedicated fan base underscores the lasting impact of animatronics on popular culture and their ability to foster community engagement ([38:39]).

He also points out that animatronics offer a tangible contrast to digital entertainment, providing a unique fascination through visible mechanical workings and lifelike movements ([39:41]).

---

Conclusion and Future Prospects for Chuck E. Cheese

As the episode draws to a close, Brown and Brackman reflect on Chuck E. Cheese’s enduring legacy and its potential to adapt within the evolving entertainment landscape. Despite facing significant challenges, the chain's historical significance and innovative strategies position it for a possible resurgence in the future.

A touching personal story is shared about a young fan named Ryan who restored a Chuck E. Cheese animatronic, exemplifying the passion and community engagement that animatronics inspire ([28:35]).

---

Key Takeaways

• Innovative Beginnings: Chuck E. Cheese and ShowBiz Pizza pioneered the "eatertainment" model, combining dining, arcade games, and animatronic shows to create family-friendly entertainment venues.

• Challenges and Adaptations: The rise of digital entertainment and economic downturns, including the COVID-19 pandemic, posed significant challenges to the chains, necessitating strategic pivots and operational changes.

• Nostalgia as a Driver: Chuck E. Cheese's current strategy heavily leverages nostalgia, targeting millennial parents who seek to share their childhood experiences with their children.

• Animatronics’ Enduring Appeal: Animatronics remain a cultural icon, captivating enthusiasts through their blend of technology, entertainment, and nostalgic value.

• Future Prospects: With strong brand equity and evolving strategies, Chuck E. Cheese has the potential to reinvent itself and maintain relevance in the competitive landscape of family entertainment.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Coley ([07:35]): “The younger generation being disconnected with being eager to play those games kind of like in a public setting.”

• Ben Coley ([12:44]): “They want to bring that nostalgia factor with them.”

• David Brown ([22:17]): “Audio animatronics.”

• Ross Brackman ([23:30]): “Everything about Chuck E. Cheese when it was introduced was special because nothing like it had really been done before.”

• Ben Coley ([24:03]): “They're trying to build up and go forward. They just have to have the right strategies to be able to market correctly to the consumers.”

• Chuck E. Cheese ([28:35]): “And Ryan single handedly did it. [...] he got them going all by himself and now he's a senior in high school.”

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the Business Wars episode, providing an insightful overview of the strategic battles, cultural impacts, and future directions of Chuck E. Cheese in its rivalry with ShowBiz Pizza Place.

Transcript

[David Brown]

Wondery subscribers can binge all four episodes of Business the Unraveling of Boeing early and ad free. Right now join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I'm David Brown and this is Business wars. For nearly 50 years, Chuck E. Cheese, short for Charles Entertainment, Cheese has been entertaining families with arcade games, prizes, Gooey Cheese pizza, and of course, an animatronic house band. Chuck E. Cheese brought the concept of eatertainment to the masses. No longer did you need a ticket to Disneyland for your kids to enjoy the musical stylings of a giant mouse while you ate your din. Ladies and gentlemen, we proudly present an.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Exciting new musical review with your merry making master of ceremonies, Chuck E. Cheese.

[David Brown]

That's me, Chuck E. Cheese. Be your host with a mouse. Later on, rival Showbiz Pizza Place would introduce a similar format, introducing the Rock Afire Explosion as their house band. Its star was a one toothed bear named Billy Bob, who Julia Roberts even dressed up as while working at showbiz as a teen. Here she is telling the story on the Ellen Show.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Several years back, I wore a bear.

[David Brown]

Costume and brought out the birthday cakes.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

It was like, you know, it's one.

[Ben Coley]

Of those places where you go, like a Chucky's Cheese.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Brown]

Ultimately, the two companies would merge and Chuck would come to rule the school. But by the mid-2000s, the hype for these kinds of places had died down and Chuck E. Cheese struggled to get customers in the door. The 2000 and tens saw buyout rebrands and pricing shifts as an attempt to revive the struggling pizza arcade. And when the pandemic hit in 2020, well, the chain officially filed for bankruptcy. Fast forward to now. There's been a growing shift in the public's appetite for Chuck E. Cheese. Video games like the uber popular Five Nights at Freddy's, which was adapted into a movie last year, are introducing the younger generation to the wonder and terror of the animatronic bands of the 1980s. Meanwhile, millennials who grew up going to the chain are rediscovering their love for it, especially as they start bringing their own kids. The nostalgia wave is so powerful, in fact, that when Chuck E. Cheese announced earlier this year it would retire the animatronic band at all but two locations, there was so much outcry online that the company decided to keep the band in five locations instead. But is nostalgia alone enough to keep this chain afloat? Here to help us understand what's next for Chuck E. Cheese is Ben Coley, senior editor at QSR magazine, a trade publication specializing in quick service restaurants. Later on, we'll be peeking into Chuck E. Cheese's past with Ross Brackman, director of the American Treasure Tour Museum in Oaks, Pennsylvania. Ross is walking us through the history of animatronics and how they became so synonymous with places like Chuck E. Cheese. Show's about to begin, so stick around. You know your team spends over half their time writing, and we all know how that happens. One confusing email turns into 12 confused replies and meeting to get all lined up again. Well, Grammarly is a trusted AI writing partner that saves your company from miscommunication and all the wasted time and money that goes with it. What I love about Grammarly is that it doesn't just correct grammar, it helps you strike the right tone for your audience so you can improve both the substance and the style of your writing. And you know, four out of five professionals say Grammarly helps them get buy in and action through their communication. Plus it integrates seamlessly across 500,000 apps and websites so there's no cutting, no pasting, no context switching join over 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to get results on the first try. Go to Grammarly.com enterprise and learn more Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI this episode is brought to you by State Farm. You've got to be kidding. It's something you might say when your small business has a problem, but that won't get you the help your business needs. What you should really say is something that can help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Their agents are ready to help you with your claim to help you get back in business on the phone or in person. Your State Farm agent is there to help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Ben Coley welcome to Business Wars.

[Ben Coley]

Glad to be here, David.

[David Brown]

Tell us more about what you cover at QSR magazine and how does Chuck E. Cheese factor into the publication's repertoire?

[Ben Coley]

So QSR stands for, of course, Quick Service Restaurants. So we primarily cover fast food and fast casual chains across America. Chuck E. Cheese is not your typical quick service concept, but historically our publication has covered their growth, their expansion, and their changes in operation so they fit more into what we would call the eatertainment segment, which is a mixture of gaming and food and cuisine and beverage. And over the years we've covered them pretty extensively and seems like they got a lot of exciting things on tap for the kids and the parents.

[David Brown]

How long have you been working in this field covering the quick service industry?

[Ben Coley]

I've been in the field four and a half years. I actually joined QSR magazine in January of 2020, which was just a couple of months before everything went kind of crazy across the country. And especially for restaurants, it was really a good fire hose to the mouth moment when trying to absorb all the information. It really kind of caught me up to speed really quickly on all these restaurants.

[David Brown]

Yeah, I can only imagine. I can only imagine. But at the same time, you say you've been doing this for about four years and I'm thinking, surely you must have known a thing or two about Chuck E. Cheese. I mean, growing up in America, did you get to go to Chuck E. Cheese as a kid?

[Ben Coley]

Of course, yeah. It'd be hard to find a kid who didn't have that memory growing up. Yeah. I specifically remember when the one opened up by where I was, I think it might have been 2003 or so. I knew it was in the early 2000s, but it opened up in a strip center. And I know our family's so excited to go and we would go there for birthday parties and other things. And I just remember all the games and getting the tickets coming out of the machines and going up to the prize wall. But I remember trying to get those good prizes and everything and seeing the high price items. I wonder if I would ever be able to save up to neff to get those. But yeah, a lot of cherished memories going Chuck E. Cheese.

[David Brown]

Yeah. It used to really frustrate me when I go in and you see these kids walking around with just armfuls of tickets.

[Ben Coley]

How long have they had to be there to do that? I don't know.

[David Brown]

Yeah, exactly. What am I doing wrong here? I've got five. And I think I'm a champion, you know, and there are these guys walking around and you'll never get the Xbox. You'll never get the fun thing that's behind the glass. But it almost seems to me like, you know, you think about the trajectory of Chuck E. Cheese. They went public in the 1980s and they rebranded to Chuck E. Cheese as we would come to know it in the 90s. And it seemed to be really on a climb. And then right around the turn of the millennium, it seemed like things started to go downhill. I wonder why that was.

[Ben Coley]

I really think it attributed to maybe the rise in technology. I think that when people got more hooked on devices, the appeal of going in and having a birthday party inside Chuck E. Cheese was a little bit lost there on the younger generation when they're more hooked on like YouTube and like social media and seeing Videos and content through.

[David Brown]

Yeah, hand me down iPads and stuff like that.

[Ben Coley]

Right, right. You saw. You saw that, you know, increase significantly toward the late 2000s. That's when, you know, Facebook to Twitter, YouTube started kind of coming up. And you got Apple, you know, coming up with the iPhone in the late 2000s. And then, of course, you had the recession. So there was an economic event there where, you know, people just had less to go out and do things. So I think it was kind of a mixture, you know, economic cycle and also just kind of the rising technology and kind of people and younger generation kind of being disconnected with being eager to kind of like, you know, play those games kind of like in a public setting.

[David Brown]

Yeah. Well, now, the company was acquired by a private equity firm in 2014, and I think the price tag was something around $1 billion.

[Ben Coley]

Right. Yeah.

[David Brown]

What was the grand plan there? How did they hope to revive a chain that was, by that point, nearly 40 years old?

[Ben Coley]

I think it's. It's what most private equity companies try to do when they take over a restaurant. You want to improve operations. You want to remodel the restaurants. I believe Apollo was the name of the private equity firm that took over operations in 2014. Some of the things that they were doing, trying to introduce cars as opposed to ticket systems. So you just kind of put up a car to the game as opposed to the paper tickets. More neutral tones in the restaurants, and trying to create a vibe that could appeal to both parents as well as kids. They also more open kitchens so people can see the food prepared. Kind of make it a more sort of experiential environment. New dance floors with a lot more lights, you know, new seating. I think they introduced, you know, an all you can play program where you could kind of spend.

[David Brown]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Ben Coley]

Spend a certain amount. You can play as much as you want. So a lot of different things they tried to do over, I guess, however long they had them, maybe about six years or so, to try to kind of switch around their business.

[David Brown]

Well, by 2020, Chuck E. Cheese was definitely in a rough spot. What happened to their business during the COVID 19 pandemic?

[Ben Coley]

Yeah, you know, they were in a very, very tough spot because when Covid happened, government mandates came in, and that closed all the dining rooms, closed restaurants. They didn't have the foot traffic, so that. That forced them to really go into what we call off premises, which means, you know, takeout and delivery and trying to send out their food through those means. One of the things, you know, was the PASQUALE'S pizza and wings brand that they came out with. I think it was pretty much a way to kind of separate itself from the Chuck E. Cheese name. Because the tough thing is that, you know, Chuck E. Cheese really isn't known for their. Their food products. They're more known for their. Their games and stuff. But I think they improved the ingredients with the pizza on that menu. It was a way for them sort of kind of revamp it and try to rely on their. Their food menu to kind of like serve as a bridge during the early days in the pandemic. So that was the other tough thing. Like, you know, with the salesman down and inability to pay rent and inability to pay vendors and all these other costs, it forced them into bankruptcy.

[David Brown]

Yeah, that was June of 2020, I believe it was.

[Ben Coley]

Right. So they went into a bankruptcy with a lot of debt. Like, a lot, a lot of debt. And a lot of the debt was from that acquisition back in 2014. It was what you call a leveraged buyout, which involves like, just kind of like a lot of debt being exchanged. But when it comes to that family entertainment space, like, they're one of the biggest names out there. I mean, it's pretty much them and David Busters are the two big ones. You figure that they had enough backing and financing, enough people involved that were going to push for it to get through this, and sure enough, they did and survived.

[David Brown]

They did. Yeah. But how are they faring nowadays? Because it seemed like they weren't just reaching out for the kids now. In fact, I think the chain introduced a new membership model to help get more parents in the door. Especially with high inflation, economic uncertainty. You've got this membership that can save you money, at least in theater. So how do you think this factors into Chuck E. Cheese's strategy overall?

[Ben Coley]

Right. They're just doing what every other brand out there is doing right now. The story of the 2024 is about what can you do to put value in front of the consumers. Like you said, they came up with that membership tier to where you could pay a certain amount. And it's actually flexible. There's different tiers. And then if you pay more per month, you're allowed to play more games. So it was just a way for people to associate Chuck E. Cheese with being a valu place to go in times where money is tight.

[David Brown]

You know, you put all this together. Who's Chuck E. Cheese's demographic these days? I mean, you think once upon a time it was the kids who would drag the parents in and then you saw what happened after the pandemic. And that appeal to parents, who are they appealing to? I almost wonder if it's not to millennial parents who grew up going to the arcade.

[Ben Coley]

That's exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to appeal to both sides. They want to make sure that they're up to date and they still can have a spot with those younger guests, which is their bread and butter. But they also know that they're old enough that the people who are parents now who were going to Chuck E. Cheese when they were little, are now in a parental position and they remember their own memories with playing the games and they want to bring that nostalgia factor with them. But, you know, it is kind of a push and pull there because some of the advancements do come at a risk of, you know, cutting out some of the things that people love the most when they were younger. But it definitely is a matter of trying to do things to appeal to parents as well. They came out with a grown up menu with wings and salads and sandwiches and trying to create a menu specifically for older people to kind of get them in there and I guess make it a more pleasant experience for them.

[David Brown]

Yeah. A few years after going private, the company tried to return to the New York Stock Exchange, but the deal ultimately fell through. Well, now that you've, you know, you've seen the company have to weather a lot of storms, things seem to have calmed down just a bit. I think there were some reports that Chuck E. Cheese may be back on the market, may be looking for a buyer to take them public again. You heard any whispers about that? Any potential offers, perhaps?

[Ben Coley]

We did hear reports of Chuck E. Cheese possibly being up for sale. I think it was about a year or so ago, but we haven't heard anything since then. It's gone pretty quiet on that front. The deal you're referring to back in 2019, supposed to be a merger with what you call a special purpose acquisition company.

[David Brown]

These are SPACs.

[Ben Coley]

Yeah, SPACs, right, correct. And for whatever reason, it didn't work out. The companies didn't give a reason as to why it didn't work at the time. And in the stories we've done about Chuck E. Cheese, they haven't shared anything or any other significant updates about switching ownership or sale or anything like that.

[David Brown]

Some of the stories that have been out there, I think Reuters was reporting that Chuck E. Cheese was expected to generate somewhere close to almost 200 million in earnings before interest, taxes, depreciate, amortization which would put you at a valuation of around 1.4 billion. That's a lot of money for Chuck E. Cheese.

[Ben Coley]

Yeah.

[David Brown]

You think Eatertainment may be making a comeback?

[Ben Coley]

Well, it's interesting, during the beginning of the pandemic, Eatertainment was. It was not great and things were not going well. Even Dave and Buster, there were some murmurings about them even possibly going bankrupt too. I mean, but around that 2021, 2022 period, they enjoyed some pretty good sales bumps from some higher traffic from people just eager to get out. But we've seen recently that these entertainment brands have had a tougher time attracting people. So these brands are trying to be known for more than just entertainment. So they're trying to build up their food and beverage programs. Pinstripes is a smaller one. It's one that's also went public last year. It's like a bowling hi concept, but it also has a very strong food and beverage program. Actually, they do more in food and beverage sales than they do in amusement, which is interesting. Yeah. So a lot of brands are trying to elevate that because, like, when you're, when you're just known for the games, it can be harder to get people to come in during these tougher wallet times. And I think that these brands felt some sluggish sales as of late after that, that big boom they felt in 2021, 2022. But there's a lot of brand equity still with Chuck E. Cheese. It's very much still a relevant brand in the psyche of America. They have the tools, they have the cultural significance and the cultural relevance to continue to build up and go forward. They just have to have the right strategies to be able to market correctly to the consumers.

[David Brown]

Ben Coley is senior editor at QSR magazine, an industry publication covering quick service restaurants. You can keep up with their [e-mail] Ben, thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars.

[Ben Coley]

I appreciate it. I had a lot of fun coming up.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Everything about Chuck E. Cheese when it was introduced was special because nothing like it had really been done before.

[David Brown]

Ross Brackman of the American Treasure Tour Museum joins us to take a deeper look at Chuck E. Cheese's house band and the history of the animatronic characters that make it up Stick around. As business owners and managers, you use software for your business every day. You use one piece of software to manage your customers, another to manage your employees, another to manage your finances, and the list goes on. You buy these pieces independently and hope they fit neatly together. Like a puzzle. And then you find out the hard way that they don't. And you end up with a mess at the heart of your business operations. Does any of this sound familiar? Well, fortunately, Zoho offers a solution to this chaos. It's called Zoho One. Zoho One is a suite of around 50 pre integrated business applications that fit together beautifully. So instead of dealing with disparate software from multiple vendors with multiple contracts and price points, you deal with one vendor with all the pieces of the business software puzzle neatly put together, offered at a very attractive price. Now, if this sounds interesting to you, you gotta check out Zoho1. At Zoho1, that's Z O H o. With Zoho, you're not just licensing apps, you're licensing peace of mind. When it comes to finding the best financial products, have you ever wished someone would do the heavy lifting for you? You know, take all that research off your plate? I sure have. And with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, well, that wish has just come true. The nerds already did the work for you, reviewing over 1,100 financial products like credit cards, savings accounts and a whole to bring you only the best of the best. You gotta check out the 2025 Best of Awards [e-mail] awards. Welcome back to Business Wars. Chuck E. Cheese is famous for its animatronic band, but these life size robot puppets hit the scene long before Munch's make believe band played their first gig. Ross Brackman is the director of the American Treasure Tour Museum in Oaks, Pennsylvania, which houses one of the largest animatronics collections in the world. He joins us now to talk about the history of these fascinating and sometimes frightening robotic wonders. Ross Brackman, welcome to Business Wars.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, thank you so much, David. It's a pleasure being here.

[David Brown]

Well, it's great to have you. Just how far back are we talking about when it comes to animatronics?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, there is a difference between animatronics and automatons. And I don't want to bore you with too much of the history, but automatons date back to basically B.C. the concept of mechanical machinery that moves on its own is almost as old as written history. And then when electricity came in the 1870s, 1880s, they started using them to draw people to department store windows.

[David Brown]

You know, I know that you mentioned that revolution with electronics and, and this whole connection with sales. Interesting. I think back in 1939, didn't Westinghouse have a kind of it wasn't animatronic, but it was a sort of like a robot named Electro who could talk and I think could even smoke. I mean, it was the 30s, after all. In fact, I think we have a clip from this. Let's listen. I am a smart fellow as I have a very fine brain of 48 electrical relays.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

It works just like a telephone switchboard. If I get a wrong number, I can always blame the operator, frankly.

[David Brown]

Okay, so we're talking about a human talking to this robot looking thing. Looks like something lifted out of a sci fi movie. But just a couple of decades later, robots like Electro became used as novelties. I mean, there were dancing bunnies and singing mice, sword swallowers. When did robotics start being used for the fun factor, you know, the entertainment factor?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, you know, they don't really talk too much about it. And the difference between Electro and the animatronics you would find in store windows is much, much different. So having them talk and be able to walk on their own, I mean, that's kind of taking it to the next level. But I would argue that they started shortly after electricity became a thing. So 1880s, 1890s, and again, we're talking hands moving and heads shaking, things like that. So nothing like smoking and walking independently.

[David Brown]

Well, by the 1950s, Walt Disney started dabbling in this space. And in the 60s, work had begun on the enchanted Tiki Room at Disneyland. And then there was this term that I believe Disney coined, audio animatronics.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Now, to accomplish this, we created a new type of animation. So new that we had to invent a new name for it.

[David Brown]

Audio animatronics.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Right, Audio animatronics.

[David Brown]

Classic Disney. So is it safe to say that when we're talking animatronics, it was Disney that originally put that on the map?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

I think so, yeah. I mean, definitely of that level of sophistication with the Tiki Room was the first, I guess, main attraction. And then of course, he also did Abraham Lincoln and showed us what you could do with the human face. Going back real quickly to the 1964 World's Fair, that was the first time Disney ever had the opportunity to share his technology with the East Coast. And people associated the east coast with a sophistication that they did not at the time on the west Coast. And so the popularity of the Disney features, the Carousel of Progress, the Tiki Room and It's a Small World, I mean, that validated for Disney and the country that we want this everywhere. And then of course, jump ahead to Chuck e Cheese. And now you're having it in towns all across the country.

[David Brown]

Totally. And it seems to me that by putting those animatronics in there, Chuck E. Cheese was trying to bring a little bit of Disney into the local communities in a sense. I mean, if you wanted to check out something as cool as an animatronic, you could just find one around the corner at a pizza shop and play some games at the same time.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

I mean, everything about Chuck E. Cheese when it was introduced was special because nothing like it had really been done before. Sure, you had things at the Disney parks, but this was basically a pizza place. And of course, Nolan Bushnell, who established and created Chuck E. Cheese, did it kind of as a way to get his Atari video games played. So, I mean, there was a market for video games, but he wanted more.

[David Brown]

Tell us about Chuck E. Cheese's Munch's Make Believe Band. What made them so special?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

I mean, you don't hear about it being a hit or a failure necessarily, but it definitely was a draw. I mean, it's a fascination. And there were people just like with any kind of technology. There were some people who were enthralled by it and eventually became obsessed by it, and other people who just thought it was creepy and weird.

[David Brown]

Munch's Make Believe bands had some competition, though, through the years. They ultimately beat out the gang at competitor Showbiz Pizza Place. But for those who never got to go, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that band, the Rock Afire Explosion. Do you remember the characters in the band? Was Chucky actually one of the players?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Not in the Rock Afire Explosion. That was a whole bunch of different animals. We had Billy Bob, he was a southern bear. We had Bird, who was a loony Bird, Rolf the Wolf, Duke LaRue and Fats Geronimo. And then there was the Mitzi Mozzarella, of course. Cause, you know, it's a pizza place, so you have to have somebody representing the cheese of choice.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah. I guess Chucky didn't make the cut of the band, huh?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, not. Not initially. I mean, that was. But that was the Rock Afire Explosion. When we got into the. I mean, independent, Bushnell had his team, which included chuck, Helen Henny, Mr. Munch, Jasper jowls and Pasquale, and of course the Warblets, who were the background singers, because you needed those as well. So you had two completely different bands going on at the same time. And sometimes across the street from each other. And I mean, that was Robert Brock, who designed the Competition. And when Brock took over for Chuck E. Cheese, he didn't immediately just cancel one of the bands. I mean, eventually he took over Chuck's characters and retired the Rock Afire Explosion. But for a time he basically ran two different restaurants across the street from each other in certain places.

[David Brown]

What about the poor Rock Afire characters? Where'd they end up?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

They ended up where unwanted animatronics often end up. And there is a story about Chuck E. Cheese that continues to this day where when a Chuck E. Cheese's closes down, they don't want them to survive. So they will intentionally destroy the animatronic characters so that they can't be repurposed. Which makes them very rare to find today in places outside of Chuck. And of course, Chuck E. Cheese's are have been talking about and officially announced that they were going to resign their band. But there was such an uproar that they're changing their policy. But ultimately they are gonna reduce their numbers quite a bit.

[David Brown]

Now tell us about that. What was the reaction like?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, people who grew up at Chuck E. Cheese's going there as kids, they have. Well, some of them, of course, have massive loyalty to these guys and they don't wanna see them go away. It's kind of like like when the Tiki Hutton Walt Disney World went under new management and they changed the song and everything. Some people were grateful they didn't have to hear the in the Tiki Tiki Tiki Room every time they go in there. But then other people is like, that's why they went. So you're going to get different reactions from everybody. That's part of what a passion evokes.

[David Brown]

I guess the only place then people could see the working characters as they were back in the day is at one of those few remaining locations. Or maybe if they're in your neck of the woods, perhaps.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Absolutely. We don't have the whole Chucky team here, but we do have some of the classics. We have Chuck, we have Helen, we have Mr. Munch and two sets of warblets. But one of the sets of warblets has been modified so that they don't look like the band. And I don't know honestly how they came to be the way they are. But they're kind of like countryfied worblets. But yeah, you can find them scattered around the country in private collections or in a few museums like ours. But it really is hard to find them. And of course there are the handful of Chuck E. Cheese is where they still play them. But what Constantly happens is they are so difficult to maintain. It really takes somebody with a passion to do it. And just as an addendum to the concept of animatronics, these guys want work off of pneumatics as well. So they're pumped with air. You need more technology than just electricity and gears to get them going. So yeah.

[David Brown]

And I would imagine a lot of patience and technical know how to, to, to, to keep them running.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

It does, but oddly, it doesn't have to be somebody with a lot of experience. And our story is a perfect example of that because a young man named Ryan, who visited us when he was eight years old, who had a early interest in Chucky, came back eight years later and asked us because at that point our Chuckies were just on display. And he asked us if we would allow him to get them back into running order.

[David Brown]

Whoa.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Yeah. I mean, it took a lot of arm twists and we basically said yes, please.

[David Brown]

Yeah, I bet. Yeah, right.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

And Ryan single handedly did it. I mean he, he said, okay, I need these parts over here. We ordered them, no problem. Some of them we had to get off of, of ebay because they were difficult to find elsewhere. But he got them going all by himself and now he's a senior in high school. Great guy. And apparently he has his own Chucky team in his own bedroom. But we're glad to have ours as well.

[David Brown]

Well, it's time for a quick break. Our guest is Ross Brackman. He's director of the American Treasure Tour Museum, housing one of the largest collections of animatronics in the country. And when we come back, we're going to talk more about about the recent wave of nostalgia, bringing back these charming, albeit sometimes creepy, animatronic bands back into the spotlight. Stay with us. Imagine getting a message from your favorite brand that feels like it was created just for you. Chances are they're using Attentive, the SMS and email marketing platform designed to help brands build and connect with their ideal audience. See, Attentive helps marketers create unique messages for every subscriber, transforming the consumer shopping experience and maximizing marketing performance. But how does it work? Well, you see, Attentive's AI learns what subscribers actually want based on their real time interactions with your brand. That means it customizes the content, tone and timing of every message so they always resonate. Are you ready to take customers on a journey created just for them? Visit attentive.combusinesswars to learn more. What separates the true leaders from the rest? It's not just vision and Ambition. It's the courage to take the road less traveled. For those with a palpable passion for life who lead by example, there's the Range Rover Sport. The Range Rover Sport is a new dimension of sporting prowess where sophisticated refinement meets visceral power. A dynamic launch delivers maximal torque for increased straight line acceleration. And with rapid DC charging and an estimated all electric range of 48 miles, the range Rover Sport Plug in electric hybrid delivers thrilling performance with an electric edge. Build your Range Rover Sport@Land RoverUSA.com Visit Land RoverUSA.com to configure your Range Rover Sport. Explore the Range Rover Sport@Land RoverUSA.com hey, welcome back to Business wars. Ross Brackman is the director of the American Treasure Tour Museum. Located just outside of Philadelphia, it features toys, animatronics, and knickknacks that'll make you feel like a kid again. Ross, this sounds like so much fun. How did you get into this business?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Basically, by luck and persistence. The first time I came here was as a visitor and I saw all of the nickelodeons, the classic cars, the, of course, the animatronics, which are very seductive. So be careful when you get here. But I just came at a time when they needed people to come in to start giving private tours, and I guess they liked what I was doing well enough that they kept me coming here.

[David Brown]

So this really speaks to the passion that this stuff incites. I mean, are you more into the nostalgia or more into robotics or what is it that draws you to this?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, I am kind of an addict of popular culture, personally, so I also have an obsession with visiting museums all over the place. So a museum where you can come in and feel happier leaving is a very rare thing in this world because most of them deal with pretty heavy subjects, and that's not what we do here. So you come in, you listen to the automatic music machines, the nickelodeons, the band organs, the carousel music, things like that. And then you also take a tram ride around the collection because it's over 100,000 square feet. And there's a definite sense of chaos when you come here, which I say that in the best possible way because it is just audio and visual saturation.

[David Brown]

Yeah, that's my favorite kind of place. I love that. I love that. Well, what is the consensus here? Are these things more creepy or is it more endearing? Or is the nostalgia factor maybe all the above?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, definitely it's all of the above. But what part of the fun of working here is and going around with the folks on the trams is watching their reactions because you can't be creeped out by Sesame street, in my humble opinion. I mean, you see those and they just kind of bring a smile. But you see the little babies that are supposed to be selling soap and they're just kind of creaming their necks and just looking scary. And clowns, it's a 50 50. You get people who love clowns and you get people who are just terrified the second they see them.

[David Brown]

So that's cool. What kind of visitors are you getting? I mean, I would think that in a way you'd be getting mostly older folks nostalgic for, you know, the sights and sounds and toys of their youth. But actually, I hear you get a lot of younger folks in the door, like teens and younger. What do you think's going on there?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, everybody can connect to different elements of popular culture. And that is part of the fun of this place. There was one day there was that we have an expo center right down the street from us, and they were doing an Oddities and Curiosities Expo. And so we had the folks coming from there to check out our animatronics and maybe come in with a sense of irony or recapturing their youth. So while they were coming in, we had a group of seniors who were leaving, having reconnected with their favorite cars from when they were kids, that kind of a thing. So one of the fun things that I enjoy is when we get a family of three generations who come in and the grandparents are loving the music and. And the parents might be enjoying the movie posters from Die Hard or Pulp Fiction or whatever may have been something that they really connected to when they were in their teens or twenties. And the little kids might love Chuck E. Cheese or the stuffed animals that we have all over the place, but bottom line, they're just trying to make you happy, whichever they are.

[David Brown]

Well, now, see, personal story here, because I thought that maybe one of the reasons you were getting more younger people was because of something that my own son has gone through. We did the whole Chuck E. Cheese thing, but. And he wasn't really interested in the animatronics. I'll tell you what turned him on. The animatronics. This video game called Five Nights at Freddy's. And it exploded online. The video game player becomes a security guard at what looks like a kind of Chuck E. Cheese type establishment where there's an animatronic band that's possessed, everything's dark, and you know you're trying to make your. The old pizzeria and there's this possessed animatronic band trying to kill you. Scary stuff. In fact, I think this was adapted into a film in 2023. Mike, this is Bonnie, Foxy and Chica. Everyone, this is Mike. Would you like a pizza with that? How have games like that opened the door for a new generation of appreciation for animatronics? This was extremely popular.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Oh. And I think it still is. And I know that the movie was hugely, like, far more than even the company that produced it expected. And I think it's. Well, I don't know how much of the backstory behind the making of the video game and the movie, you know, but Scott Cawthorn created video games with a Christian orientation around them. And one of the games was called Chipper and Son's Lumber. And Chipper had this look that reminded people of animatronics. And so Scott got a lot of flack for making a creepy automaton, basically, or animatronic for them. And he was like, fine, if that's what you think, I'll give you a real creepy automaton.

[David Brown]

He became a billionaire in the process, too, over there.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Absolutely. And I think it's kind of like clowns and everything else. You have fond memories of a clown as a kid, or you have fond memories of a video game as a kid, and then as an adult or as you get older, you get to, I don't know, see the sinister side of it. So you can enjoy the innocence as well as the creepiness. And so I think automatons, partly because most people don't understand how they work, and I'm certainly part of that. So there's an element of mystery to them, but I think that's definitely alluring. And most people who have been to Disney World are impacted, whether it's through It's a Small World or Pirates of the Caribbean. Like this magic of these characters that very obviously aren't human, but they're moving like humans. Like, there's just a mysticism about it.

[David Brown]

Has this translated to more teens, tweens and 20 somethings coming to the museum?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, I mean, we understand where it's coming from as far as, you know, the allure, but most definitely we do see people coming in partly to see Chuck E. T's as these characters that they remember from their childhood, but also imagining maybe that they have knives in their hands and they don't. Ours are very friendly. They will only sing to you if you're lucky, but you'll never see them try to kill you. I Promise.

[David Brown]

Yeah, but these are the OGs. This is what it came from. So it's something else, too. The Rock Afire Explosion band from the former Showbiz Pizza also appears to have had a bit of a resurgence. There's something called BillyCon where fans from across the US converge on Billy Bob's Wonderland in West Virginia to celebrate. Well, Billy from the Rock Afire frontman, just how deep does this whole animatronic subculture run?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, again, I think most of the animatronic subculture is the same subculture as Halloween. I think that is the most straightforward connection because you go to Halloween conventions and things like that and they're always trying to one up each other with their sophisticated animatronics. And of course, you go to the Home Depot either at Halloween or Christmas time and they have all of these 10 foot tall skeletons now that move. And it's all basic technology compared to what you see at Chuck or Disney World. But people just have a genuine fascination with mechanical devices that they don't understand. And I think that goes also to the fact that digital is so powerful now. Like, there's no getting a sense of how computers work unless you are in that field or you just are obsessed with it. You work with your phone, you know how to use it, but if it breaks, you have to send it to a specialist. With mechanical, you can see the gears running, you can see the belt going. And I think that makes it more accessible for people.

[David Brown]

Now, how can folks visit your museum?

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, we are open Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and we are located just about five, maybe 10 minutes from the Valley Forge National Park. So we're really not far at all from Philadelphia right off the highway. We're actually in an old B.F. goodrich tire factory. So maybe not too pretty from the outside, but, but the folks who used to work at the Goodrich plant who have come to see us here say that it's a lot nicer now than it was when they were making tires.

[David Brown]

And I would think a whole lot more fun too. Ross Brackman, thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars.

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Well, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

[David Brown]

Ross Brackman's the director of the American Treasure Tour Museum in Oaks, Pennsylvania, just outside Philly. You can pay him a visit or follow him on social media to stay up to date on the list. Latest treasures on display next time on Business Wars. As an ailing Disney struggles to recover from the COVID pandemic and a run of movie misses, a billionaire activist investor seizes the moment and goes on the attack, you won't want to miss it. If you like Business wars, you can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wondery this is episode three of Chuck E. Cheese versus Showbiz Pizza for Business Wars. I'm your host, David Brown. Kelly Kyle produced this episode. Peter A.R. cooney is our senior interview producer. Our producers are Emily Frost and Grant Rose. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Plews. Our senior producers are Karen Lowe and Dave Schilling. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie for Wondery.

[Ross Brackman]

Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US History. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Christa McAuliffe into space aboard the space shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes, and in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today.