Price Wars: The Fall of Dollar Stores | Duped | 3

Summary

Business Wars: Price Wars - The Fall of Dollar Stores | Duped | Episode 3 Summary

Hosted by David Brown, Wondery's "Business Wars" delves into the intense battles between major companies shaping consumer behavior and market landscapes. In Episode 3 of the "Price Wars" series, titled "The Fall of Dollar Stores," the focus shifts to the evolving dynamics of dollar store chains amidst economic pressures, shifting consumer habits, and the burgeoning dupe culture.

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1. The Changing Face of Dollar Stores

David Brown opens the episode by highlighting the traditional role of dollar stores as convenient and affordable sources for everyday items like party supplies and groceries. However, recent strategies by major chains like Dollar General signal a shift toward attracting more affluent shoppers.

Ann Marie Conti, Deputy Editor at Wirecutter, shares personal anecdotes illustrating this cultural shift:

[04:39] Ann Marie Conti: "My mother obsessed with the Dollar Store. Always has been, loves it, embraces it."

Dollar General's introduction of the Pop Shelf format aims to compete with retailers like Target and TJ Maxx by offering trendier and higher-priced merchandise. This initiative reflects the chain's attempt to broaden its customer base beyond traditional low-income shoppers.

2. Shopper Demographics and Motivations

Ann Marie Conti provides insights into the diverse demographics utilizing dollar stores. While historically geared towards lower-income individuals, the customer base now includes:

• Boomers and Older Generations: Many retirees and older consumers seek value-driven purchases, a habit ingrained from past economic environments.
• Middle-Income Shoppers: People earning less than $65,000 annually find dollar stores a practical option for household and personal items.
• Crafters and Event Planners: Dollar stores are popular for specific needs like party supplies and craft materials.

[06:53] Ann Marie Conti: "We're seeing people that earn less than $65,000 a year. We're also seeing people like boomers, like my mother, teachers, crafters."

3. Product Quality and Safety Concerns

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the quality and safety of dollar store products. Ann Marie emphasizes the importance of discerning which items offer real value:

• Good Buys: Household supplies, seasonal items, greeting cards, party decorations, and certain school supplies.
• Caution Advised: Sharp objects, personal care products, electronic accessories like cell phone charging cables, and potentially food items due to contamination risks.

[09:06] Ann Marie Conti: "There was a report of Dollar Tree leaving lead-tainted applesauce on store shelves. Right. Like that is a real risk."

She underscores the necessity of checking expiration dates and being mindful of the materials and origins of products to ensure safety and reliability.

4. The Influence of Tariffs and Trade Wars

The episode delves into how global economic factors, particularly tariffs and trade wars, are impacting dollar stores:

• Price Increases: Dollar Tree has incrementally raised prices from $1 to $1.75, with some items now priced up to $7.
• Store Closures and Conversions: Dollar General has closed numerous Pop Shelf stores, reverting them to standard Dollar General outlets due to declining middle-income consumer spending.
• Competition with Online Marketplaces: Platforms like TEMU and Shein are navigating tariff impacts differently, with TEMU potentially facing significant changes if tax exemptions are removed.

[18:43] Ann Marie Conti: "We are seeing that prices are rising already, and we are seeing that the fear of the tariffs and the increases is really causing a lot of pressure."

5. The Rise of Dupe Culture

A pivotal segment of the episode explores the burgeoning dupe (duplicate) culture, where consumers seek affordable alternatives to high-end products. This trend is fueled by:

• Social Media Influence: Platforms like TikTok and Instagram amplify dupe recommendations, making them accessible and trendy.
• Economic Pressures: Rising inflation and cost of living push consumers towards cheaper alternatives without significantly compromising quality.
• Retail Innovations: Companies like Quince are thriving by explicitly positioning their products as dupes of more expensive brands, offering similar functionality and aesthetics at a fraction of the price.

[34:59] Ann Marie Conti: "We have seen reports that TEMU is connected to the Chinese Communist Party. They could be potentially mining your data. It's just not a risk that I would personally take."

6. Future Outlook for Dollar Stores

Ann Marie Conti provides a candid assessment of the future of dollar stores amidst ongoing economic challenges and shifting consumer preferences:

• Sustainability and Overconsumption: The low prices of dollar stores can lead to impulse purchases and increased waste, raising sustainability concerns.
• Shift to Thrift and Second-Hand Markets: Alternatives like thrift stores and online buy-nothing groups are gaining traction as viable options for budget-conscious and environmentally aware consumers.
• Adaptation Strategies: Dollar stores may need to continue evolving, possibly by enhancing product quality, expanding into new markets, or rebranding to maintain relevance.

[24:30] Ann Marie Conti: "I do think that considering that the core customer is low income and they are going to need a place to shop and they are going to be tight on time and money that there will be a place for the dollar store."

7. Personal Reflections and Recommendations

Ann Marie shares her personal experiences with dollar stores, balancing practicality with critical evaluation:

[14:47] Ann Marie Conti: "I did. So here's me standing on my high horse telling you not to buy anything. My mother and I were out the other day. She was getting a haircut. She hands me $2 and she says, go to the dollar store. And the first thing I said was no."

She advocates for mindful shopping, encouraging consumers to prioritize quality over quantity and to consider the long-term value of their purchases.

8. Conclusion: Navigating the Dollar Store Landscape

The episode wraps up by emphasizing the necessity for consumers to navigate dollar stores with informed strategies. Ann Marie Conti encourages listeners to:

• Assess Price Per Quantity: Determine if the low price truly translates to value based on the quantity and quality of the product.
• Prioritize Needs Over Wants: Focus on essential purchases to avoid overconsumption driven by low prices.
• Explore Alternatives: Consider thrift stores, online marketplaces, and community buy-nothing groups for additional savings and sustainable options.

[27:49] Ann Marie Conti: "Small items that work well every time really get to the center of my heart."

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Key Takeaways:

• Dollar Stores are Evolving: Traditional dollar store models are adapting to attract a broader and more affluent customer base, though not without challenges.
• Dupe Culture is On the Rise: The trend towards affordable alternatives to high-end products is reshaping consumer behavior, heavily influenced by social media.
• Economic Pressures Impact Retail: Tariffs, trade wars, and inflation are forcing dollar stores to adjust pricing and strategies, impacting their sustainability.
• Consumer Vigilance is Crucial: Shoppers must critically assess the value and safety of dollar store products, prioritizing quality and necessity.

Notable Quotes:

• Ann Marie Conti on Safety Concerns:

  "There was a report of Dollar Tree leaving lead-tainted applesauce on store shelves. Right. Like that is a real risk." ([09:06])

• On the Future of Dollar Stores:

  "I do think that considering that the core customer is low income and they are going to need a place to shop and they are going to be tight on time and money that there will be a place for the dollar store." ([24:30])

• Personal Shopping Experience:

  "I do have the time for that. And so I accumulate over time the things that I need." ([25:13])

Episode Credits:

• Host: David Brown
• Guest: Ann Marie Conti, Deputy Editor at Wirecutter
• Producers: Kelly Kyle, Tristan Donovan, and others
• Audio Engineer: Sergio Enriquez
• Executive Producers: Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie
• Production Details: This episode was produced by Wondery as part of the "Business Wars" series, exploring real-life business rivalries and strategies.

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For listeners interested in the intersection of retail strategies, consumer behavior, and economic influences, this episode provides an in-depth exploration of the current challenges and transformations within the dollar store sector.

Transcript

[David Brown]

Wondery subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars Price wars the Fall of Dollar Stores early and ad free right now. Join Wonder plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I'm David Brown and this is Business War. You know, dollar stores can be extremely handy if you need some party supplies. In a pinch, you might just run over to your local dollar tree to pile some birthday candles and noise makers into the cart. And for a lot of people, they offer a convenient and affordable way to get groceries and other staples. But lately, dollar store chains are trying to change their perception with customers and lure in more affluent shoppers. One of the big chains, Dollar General, launched a new store format geared towards shoppers who would typically turn to a Target or even a TJ Maxx for beauty, home decor and office supplies. It's called Pop Shelf and its stores are filled with on trend and higher priced merchandise. There's another trend that's changing the profile of dollar store shoppers. Shoppers looking for dupes, short for duplicates of high end brands, are finding themselves headed to the dollar stores where you might find a face cream with identical ingredients to some brand that costs nearly 30 times as much. Ann Marie Conti is the deputy editor at Wirecutter, where she reviews consumer products to help readers figure out which ones are worth the investment. She's written a lot about dollar stores. Her mom is a huge fan, and Ann Marie has become an expert at understanding which dollar store products to buy and which ones to leave on the shelf. Ann Marie will help us navigate the aisles of the dollar store to understand who's shopping there, if they're still real value, and where they fit in under this new era of tariffs, trade wars and shifting consumer habits. Later on, Chantal Fernandez of the Cut helps us dive into the dupe trend more directly. Chantal wrote a major report on the Queen of the Dupes, the online retailer Quince, and she explains how these shops can pull it off and why Quince is quickly becoming more popular than online competitors Taemu and Shein Grab a basket because all that's coming up. You know managing your workforce can be exhausting. Are you tired of a costly and lengthy hiring process? Well, you can simplify and speed up your recruitment with one connection. The experts at Express employment professionals reduce time to hire, cut down on interviews and lower your recruitment costs. Just visit expresspros.com today. Express is more efficient than hiring on your own. Check out ExpressPros.com to see how express employment professionals can take care of your hiring.

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[David Brown]

Anne Marie Conti welcome to business Wars.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here.

[David Brown]

We're thrilled to have you tell us a little bit about how you encountered Dollar Store culture. And I guess you should call it a culture because it really is a thing, huh?

[Ann Marie Conti]

You know that Taylor Swift lyric, you wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me? That's it. My mother obsessed, obsessed with the Dollar Store. Always has been, Loves it, embraces it. And my act of rebellion is working at Wirecutter where we test products and really like things to last and be long term. So you know, my mother owns multitude of things from the Dollar Store. One of my moments of rage was baking a cake and a beautiful cake that I had baked and I put it in her cake carrier and I locked the sides and I picked it up by the handle.

[David Brown]

Oh no.

[Ann Marie Conti]

And the bottom fell out and hit the floor and I oh, that's terrible.

[David Brown]

That is terrible. What other experiences have you had at the Dollar Store that you recall?

[Ann Marie Conti]

It's not all bad, but I'm gonna give you another bad example. I was reporting a story actually about the Dollar Store and I'm writing it from my mom's house. I was visiting her during the summer and she is carrying around a laundry basket that is held together with various forms of tape. And when I finished, it was so poetic. When I finished the story, the bottom completely fell out of the thing. And I was like, uh huh. Yep. I took a video and made a reel out of it because what else are you gonna do?

[David Brown]

Yeah, I think we have that reel right here. Let's hear part of that video.

[Ann Marie Conti]

And as I was writing the Ask Wirecutter advice column about products that are better not to buy at the Dollar Store, my mother's Dollar Store laundry basket completely bit the dust. Look at this thing. It's like you heard me talking about it. The bottom fell out. It's been taped together. The cheap plastic bends and folds and it pinches you as you're trying to carry it. The handles aren't sturdy I hate that thing.

[David Brown]

Beautiful. Absolutely. I guess the question when you were reporting with Wirecutter was, how do I stop my mom from buying dollar store junk? But I think a lot of people sort of growing up in that environment, shall we say, kind of got hooked on dollar store themselves, because the appeal does seem to go a little bit beyond, I don't know, the price tag itself.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yeah, you know, I'm poking fun a little bit. But I also really want to acknowledge that there are people who lack access and funds, and the dollar store can be available to them for a variety of things. And that's really. It's a reality of today's retail environment. So there are lots of people who shop at the dollar Store. And, you know, and the dollar store that I think we're defining can be dol. Dollar General can be Dollar Tree, but they've really consolidated into those two big chains. Family Dollar was bought by dollar tree in 2015. So there are still some independent stores, but those are mostly the big players.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And who's actually using these when we're talking about folks who don't really have any other options? But they're not the only ones.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yeah, we're seeing people that earn less than $65,000 a year. We're also seeing people like boomers, like my mother, teachers, crafters. People that are planning for a party often will use things from the dollar store. They are really well known for their helium balloons. So they do reach a lot of people and in a variety of income levels.

[David Brown]

Well, we should talk a little bit about why those people, for instance, boomers, why did they seem to be drawn to dollar stores?

[Ann Marie Conti]

I think as you get older, even if you're not on a fixed income, I think income does start to become tight. And I think also a lot of boomers were raised in an environment where things were tight. So you're going back to your childhood. You're going back to a place where you think that you're getting the best value for your money. Whether or not that's true.

[David Brown]

Yeah, for sure. And at the same time, though, we're seeing sort of a resurgence of dollar store culture, especially online. Have you picked up on any of that?

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yes, I am fed a lot of those videos. They just. They know who exactly to feed it to. They know that I'm interested in the Dollar store. I find a lot of those videos are for content rather than reality. I actually one was served to me last night. A dad was restocking his drinks and his snack containers, and I was just Screaming into my phone. If you just went to the grocery store and bought it in bigger quantities and broke it down into snack size containers, it would be better value for your money.

[David Brown]

Interesting, interesting. So. Well, now there's something right there because there's the perception that the dollar store has the values. But as you're pointing out, once you start to break down these quantities, maybe the value's not really there.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yes, I think in a lot of cases, I think it's also there's health and safety issues. There is perhaps sometimes less regulation or you're just never really sure where some of this is coming from. I know advocacy groups have raised concerns about levels of contaminants in some of the products. And so, you know, you just really want to make sure that what you're buying is something that isn't going to affect your health and safety.

[David Brown]

How serious is that concern of health and safety? You know, you talk about some of these. A lot of these objects come from the same general region of the world, if you will.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yeah, they import a lot of things internationally, I believe it's about 40% of their products are imported. And you know, we, there was a report of dollar tree leaving lead tainted applesauce on store shelves. Right. Like that is a real risk. And so when recalls happen, people need to be aware of them and make sure that they are addressing it and the store itself needs to be addressing it.

[David Brown]

Well, this is a real treat for us because you guys have quite the reputation when it comes to telling folks what and what not to buy. So what would you consider to be the good should buy list at a dollar store as opposed to those things that should not be on the list?

[Ann Marie Conti]

People generally go for household supplies, seasonal items and personal care products. My general rule is don't buy anything sharp that can potentially ruin something expensive or that can affect your health and safety or that goes on or in your body. And that limits you pretty significantly at the dollar store. So nothing that's supposed to cut, right? Scissors, knives, anything like that is gonna be made out of a cheaper metal. There's just no way to get around it. You can't sell something at those prices and have it be quality.

[David Brown]

Vegetable peeler, for example.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yeah, I mean we actually like a vegetable peeler. We like the Kuhn Rikon vegetable peeler. It's $8 and you're not going to get one for that. Much less at the dollar store. So for us, you know, we've tested it. We really like that peeler. It's really nice in your hand. And so that's the type of thing where, you know, if you're going to spend just a few dollars more, you're going to get a higher quality product, something like a grater. Now, our grater pick, I will admit, is I think it's $20. However, it comes with a 25 year warranty. So you are going to keep this grater, hopefully for most of your life.

[David Brown]

Right.

[Ann Marie Conti]

And it's incredibly sharp, it works well. And that's what you want. You want a grater that's going to work each and every time and not be something that you have to throw into the trash that just ends up in a landfill.

[David Brown]

Okay, so the grater and the peeler we're leaving on the shelf. Uh, let's see, what about. I'm thinking of some things that we encounter when we go into a dollar store. Oh yeah, Cell phone charging cables. What about those?

[Ann Marie Conti]

Oh, my gosh, please do not. Your, your cell phone probably cost you $1,000 and you're going to spend $2 on a charging cable. Please, like, for the safety of your phone. Um, these things have been known, sometimes they've caught fire. Like, you definitely do not want to do anything that is going to affect an expensive object. Now, if you want to talk about things you could probably get away with, like, go, go nuts on the greeting cards. Right. Why are you spending $7 on a greeting card when you spend a dollar? Party supplies. Things like banners and crepe paper, that kind of thing. Totally fine. You're not eating it. I'm okay with it. Small kids, entertainment items. Things like stickers or coloring books or notepads. As long as your kids aren't at the age where they're putting things in their mouth. Again, totally cool. And even, you know, school supplies, if you want to take a risk on a pencil sharpener. But things like binders or notebooks, legal pads, those kinds of things. Great. Go for it.

[David Brown]

Okay. All right. I want to loop back to food items for just a moment because I hear what you're saying about the applesauce, for example, but I've noticed that in recent years there have been more and more items that I recognize from the local supermarket. You know, I'm thinking of particular potato chips, for example. Wouldn't that be safe? I mean, that's. My intuition is, hey, it's packaged at some plant somewhere. I see this on, you know, on the shelves of someplace that I trust. Do you trust the dollar shop for something like that?

[Ann Marie Conti]

We have not done any testing on this, so all I can say is you want to check those expiration dates. You want to make sure it's a product that you really trust. And you know what? I'm not, certainly not going to stop anyone. But I also think that the grocery store is a much more reliable option.

[David Brown]

Something else that I've seen a lot of in recent months and that's skin care products. It seems like there are a lot of influencers out there saying, hey, listen, why spend, you know, 25, 30, $50 on X when you could buy this at the dollar store?

[Ann Marie Conti]

The rule, nothing that goes on and in your body covers any sort of skincare. Because we have seen in reports that these products can contain high levels of contaminants. And so we just want to be 100% sure that you're not putting yourself at risk.

[David Brown]

Okay, well, fair enough. You're ruthless. You are absolutely ruthless. What about smarter shopping at the dollar store? We just got our cart. We're going to start going through. I guess we're going to hit the card section first. Anything else?

[Ann Marie Conti]

Dollar stores can be a good way to save money. If you have the time and the access, going elsewhere may be better. And so I think that if you really want to maximize what you buy at the dollar store, just be careful to look at the price per quantity, the quality and what the package contains and consider if it's really an item you need. Because we were just talking a lot about health and safety. But I think the other thing about the dollar store is that it really tempts people to over consume because everything is so cheap. And if we're thinking about it from a sustainability standpoint, you really don't want to impulse purchase a lot of junk that you may not use long term. And I do know that a lot of crafters will put together different items from the dollar store. That's a big thing on TikTok. But just make sure it's something that you actually want and you will actually use.

[David Brown]

Okay? Confess. Confess. Do you ever find yourself just slipping into the dollar store and picking up something quick or not really?

[Ann Marie Conti]

Oh, I did. So here's me standing on my high horse telling you not to buy anything. My mother and I were out the other day. She was getting a haircut. She hands me $2 and she says, go to the dollar store. And the first thing I said was no. And then she said, and buy some candy. And I went, all right, okay. So I bought some mike and ikes and we ate them and neither of us died. But I'm just coming from a really cautious standpoint and it's not something that I do regularly.

[David Brown]

We have to take a short shopping break. Ann Marie Conte is deputy editor at Wirecutter. And when we come back, we're going to be talking about the longevity of the dollar store and how something called tariffs might make it a bit harder to get some of this stuff so darn cheap. Stick around. You know it's funny, sometimes self care looks like binge watching cooking shows in your PJs and other times it's just making sure you're taking care of the bas. That's what Liquid IV is for. It's a little daily ritual that makes hydration actually exciting. Let me tell you what makes it special. It's powered by LIV Hydra Science, a blend of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients. You just tear open a stick, pour it into water and boom, you've got hydration that has three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drinks. I keep some sugar free Liquid IV packets in my car console. White Peach is my favorite. Just pull into a gas station, grab some bottled water, pour in some Liquid IV and that feeling of constant thirst on the road just disappears. All you need is one stick, 16 ounces of water and it hydrates so much better than just water alone. So what's your ritual? Well, break the mold and own it. Treat yourself to extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to LiquidIV.com and make sure to use code BW at checkout to get that 20% off discount. That's 20% off your first order with code bwiquidiv.com We've all been there sitting through another mind numbing presentation. You know the kind, tiny text you can barely read, templates and slide transitions straight out of the 90s. But here's the thing. Your presentations don't have to put people to sleep. With Canva presentations, you can create something that actually keeps your audience engaged. We're talking stunning templates you can customize in minutes, not hours. Just drag and drop from their massive library of professional images and graphics, add some smooth animations and even throw in interactive polls to keep everyone on their toes. Need to collaborate with your team? Just share your presentation instantly and edit together in real time. And here's something I love. Their AI tools can help summarize your text or even generate entire slides from a prompt. No wonder 95% of Fortune 500 companies use Canva. We just put together a very professional looking presentation for our team using Canva, and the first thing everyone said was, this is great. Why haven't we done this before? Well, maybe they didn't know about Canva. You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. And let me tell you something, your audience will too. Love your work with canva. [e-mail] hey, welcome back to Business Wars. My guest is Ann Marie Conti. She's deputy editor at Wirecutter, where she writes about and reviews the latest consumer products. Okay, let's talk about the big T in the room here. Tariffs, possibility of trade wars. You've heard a lot about this. I know a lot of listeners have as well. How do you think that these proposed tariffs might affect the dollar store experience? Or is there any real way of knowing right now?

[Ann Marie Conti]

Well, Dollar Tree has told us right back in December, they said they may stop selling some items or they may have to raise prices due to the effects of the trade war. So that we are seeing in reality, I'm seeing some reports online on Reddit and elsewhere of people saying that at their dollar store they've already seen prices increase. Now, whether or not that's directly related to the trade wars or the company is taking an opportunity to raise prices because people are ner, I can't say. But we are seeing that prices are rising already, and we are seeing that the fear of the tariffs and the increases is really causing a lot of pressure.

[David Brown]

Well, they're no longer really dollar stores anymore, right? I mean, I think Dollar Tree is already, what, a $25 for a lot of its items, Is that right?

[Ann Marie Conti]

Yes, they raised that in 2021 from a dollar to $1.25. And what I'm seeing is that people's local stores are now raising to $1.50 or $1.75 and goes up to $7. Dollar General is actually not really a dollar store. I know it says dollar in the name, but a lot of their prices are higher to begin with than dollar trees.

[David Brown]

Interesting, interesting. Now, let's talk about another contender here. When you're talking about steep budgeting. TAMU online marketplace TAMU also affected by the tariffs. I'm curious if these tariffs might level the playing field for the dollar stores and other cheap online marketplaces. You think folks might be more inclined to shop in those places? They don't have to wait two weeks for something like a picture frame.

[Ann Marie Conti]

So TEMU is going to be affected by the de minimis tax exemption, which means that anything shipped under $800 was exempt from taxes. So that is going to affect them significantly. I don't recommend that people shop it either, but at least the dollar store isn't stealing your data. So we have seen multiple reports that TEMU is connected to the Chinese Communist Party. They could be potentially mining your data. It's just not a risk that I would personally take. And so I think that the one advantage of the dollar store in this scenario is that you can touch and feel the merchandise and not get duped. I've seen a lot of people post about, oh, I thought I was buying this. And it turns out it's a photo of the thing I thought I was buying. And so that is one advantage of the dollar store. But who survives? I'm not really sure. We're already seeing some of these stores contract. Dollar General is contracting significantly.

[David Brown]

Interesting, interesting. You've mentioned something that I think a lot of folks, a lot of boomers perhaps may have memories of and that's the five and dime. Of course we've seen the disappearance of the five and dime, except as a kind of nostalgic throwback here and there or in some small touristy town in Vermont or something like that. But the soul of the five and dime was always inexpensive goods. Things that were just good enough. You might not keep it for a lifetime, but you could always go in. There was a kind of general store quality. And I think that in a way that's been part of the appeal in the suburbs of the dollar stores. What do you think happens once we're talking about the inevitable inflationary pressure? Whether there are tariffs or not, we're seeing this inflationary pressure everywhere. And I wonder what happens to the dollar stores as they become more expensive and some try to sort of move a little bit upscale to keep their customers coming in.

[Ann Marie Conti]

This is a really interesting case study because Dollar General created pop shelf, which was exactly that. It was aimed at the middle income consumer. They call themselves a stress free shopping destination. And it's party supplies, it's DIY, it's all the stuff that you're seeing on TikTok. And so they opened two test stores in 2020 and in 2021 that they were going to be opening a thousand stores by 2025. Well, we're now in 2025 and they have just announced that they are closing 96 of their stores and converting those pop shelves into regular dollar generals.

[David Brown]

Interesting.

[Ann Marie Conti]

And that is really because these middle income consumers are really contracting and they are shopping for needs and not wants.

[David Brown]

Wow, what about five below? Have you had a Chance to check one of those out.

[Ann Marie Conti]

I have been in Five Below. I have also been caught a few times in Five Below with my kids. We buy craft supplies from them. I did. You know, against my better judgment, my kid wanted a water bottle from them. We bought it and it spilled constantly and the threads of her water bottle were off. And so every time we went to close it, it would be a little bit wonky and then the thing would tip over and spill. And I said for five doll worth my time and energy. And so that again, like, you know, even when I relax a little, I'm always taught a lesson.

[David Brown]

Well, you've just taught us a lesson, that's for sure. Although sometimes as stocking stuffers, I think Five Below has its place. Maybe.

[Ann Marie Conti]

Sure. No, yeah, yeah. I'm not an absolutist. I'm with you there.

[David Brown]

Okay. All right. Well, what about this idea of moving the dollar store upscale? I mean, obviously when people are buying for needs, necessities and that sort of thing, not going to work. But I know that some dollar stores have tried to get some higher end products to keep customers interested. And you gotta wonder, given where the dollar store is sort of in the crosshairs of all of these tariffs and inflationary pressures, what then is the future of the dollar store? I mean, do you think that if they can't make it by going upscale right now, where do you see it in, I don't know, what, five, 10 years?

[Ann Marie Conti]

It's really hard to tell. But I do think that considering that the core customer is low income and they are going to need a place to shop and they are going to be tight on time and money that there will be a place for the dollar store. But I also would really encourage people to shift to the thrift store and also online buy nothing groups have proliferated in the past few years and that's a great way to get objects that are great and 90% off. You're paying a dollar or two. I was just at a church rummage sale and I bought a great pair of scissors, I bought two skeins of yarn and I bought a craft kit for $3 total.

[David Brown]

You know, you sound like one of those shoppers that just loves to shop for the fun of it. Am I, am I hitting on anything or No.

[Ann Marie Conti]

I actually find shopping to be a little bit torturous, which is why. Yes. No, I'm telling you because I think a lot of people at Wirecutter feel that way because we really do want to cut through the noise. There is so Much noise out there. But what I love is a good deal and a good find. So I really like the hunt. And when I go into a thrift store or a rummage sale or something like that, that is really the hunt. But that's because I do have the time for that. And so I accumulate over time the things that I need. I bought a microplane grater for $3 the other day. And so that was like a delight. And so now I'll have that for several years. And so I always have a running list of the things that I need in the back of my head that I can keep an eye out for. But when you're really under pressure and you need, you need a thing immediately. I understand that. That's when you just have to like go on Amazon or go to the dollar store and just grab it.

[David Brown]

But you know how when, sometimes when a company emerges, it's like they come up with something that just meets that perfect need, fits that perfect slot. And you wonder how did we get by for years and years without this particular thing? Fill in the blank. I kind of sense that right now, somewhere between Walmart and Target and the Dollar Store, there's this sweet spot for the middle class. Blue sky this for me, I mean, is there, is there, can you imagine, say a way to capture that niche where you're, where you've got the middle class shopper who doesn't really want to go the target route, wants to spend less, but doesn't want to go junk?

[Ann Marie Conti]

You know, I have that right. We have a wonderful set of local retailers. I'm lucky to live in the suburbs, so it's not super rural. I can get there, you know, quickly and easily. But small businesses have sprung up to fill a lot of these needs. Refill shops are increasing in popularity, so people go and bring their own containers and we'll refill it. And they're reducing packaging that way. There's a small town candy store that just opened up. I really hope that they stick around. Cause what a delight. And we have a kitchen store in town too. So I really happen to be very lucky that I live in a place that has a lot of variety. And I do think that more small business owners are stepping up to fill that need.

[David Brown]

Before we let you go, Annmarie, I'd love to hear about your favorite product right now. Is there anything you've been gatekeeping? Cause it's just so affordable and so good.

[Ann Marie Conti]

I, you know, this is not a wire cutter pick, but it is a wire cutter fan favorite. Muji makes a really great pen. I bought a box. They're about $1.25. Pens are not normally something that, you know, if you knew me, you would be like, she would never spend money on a pen. But a pen that writes really well is really important. So I always have my Muji pen with me. The other thing that and it's so silly, but it's the small items, the small, inexpensive items that work well every time that really get to the center of my heart. And it's dog poop bags. I'm telling you right now, the earth rated dog poop bags, they cost about a nickel a piece and they are big, they tie well, they work every time, they don't rip, and they're made 65% from recycled plastic. And so they make me feel marginally better about the fact that I'm throwing them in the trash and they just work every time.

[David Brown]

So if you're ever going to a party with Anne Marie Conti, make sure that you bring along some muji pins and dog poop bags. It's earth rated, please.

[Ann Marie Conti]

That's correct. Best birthday gift.

[David Brown]

Anne Marie Conti is deputy editor at Wirecutter, where she writes up product recommendations to help shoppers get the best bang for their buck. You can check out her [e-mail] Anne Marie Conti, it's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars.

[Ann Marie Conti]

What a delight. Thank you so much.

[David Brown]

Coming up, Chantal Fernandez of the Cut joins us to talk about dupes and why these days they seem to generally generate more hype than the originals. Stay with us.

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Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

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I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium.

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[David Brown]

Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. Dupe dupes are everywhere these days. In case you haven't heard of dupes, the word short for duplicates products that might have similar or identical ingredients to a more expensive version, but for a much lower price tag. And one area that's full of dupes is skin care.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But I wanted to show you what the $25 tree had because I pay $13 for my face wash. It is Cetaphil. And look what they have now. Same ingredients, $1.25 instead of fill. Doobie doo doo baroonie.

[David Brown]

Nina Pool's Just One Online influencer identifying affordable copies of popular products. There are a lot of folks out there doing this sort of thing. She focuses, though, on skincare brands you can find at Target, Walmart, and sometimes, sometimes even at the dollar store. Dupe culture goes way beyond skincare, of course. You'll see recommendations for faux designer handbags, sneakers, cookware, furniture that look like, well, versions of something more expensive. And people are proud, even excited, to own them. Chantal Fernandez is a feature writer for the Cut, where she's covered the excitement around dupes and their growth. She joins us now to identify some of the most popular copycat retailers out there. Quince, I'm looking at you and why these companies and products have generated such buzz. Chantal Fernandez, welcome to Business Wars.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you, David. Thank you for having me.

[David Brown]

Where did this dupes concept come from? I mean, I can remember going to New York for the first time and seeing knockoffs of Rolex watches and that kind of thing. This is different from the kind of 100% copycats which use the same brands. We're talking about things that are so closely similar. What in in function that you can get them for a lot cheaper, right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. And they're not pretending to be the authentic version, which I think is the difference with counterfeits. Like there isn't a Chanel logo on the bag. That's it's not advertising itself as such, but the design and the function is Mimicking another more expensive popular product. And also, especially in the United States, there's very few protections around fashion design attributes because they're sort of considered functional and you can't trademark them in the same way that you could a water bottle or something else like. And dupe is a newer sort of Internet word for this. But this has been a part of retail and, you know, fashion in particular for decades and decades. You know, I recently published a book about Victoria's Secret, which was owned by the Limited, and that is a mall retailer that in the 80s was very successful. You know, copying from the runways in Europe or from other retailers. You know, has been around forever, but it's become even more popular, I would say, since the pandemic.

[David Brown]

Yeah, very interesting stuff. At the same time, I think there is this new aspect of the copycat culture because it used to be that if you had a copycat or used a copycat or paid less for something, an off brand had a kind of negative sort of connotation. And now it's like you go online and people are really embracing these less expensive alternatives.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, it's like a point of pride that you were able to find a similar product at a lower price. And maybe I think there's more awareness now that a brand name can increase the price of something sort of arbitrarily. You know, we could debate whether that's true or not, but that certainly happens in some categories from some brands. And so the idea that you've sort of saved yourself some money but gotten the same type of item that's just as good or was maybe made from the same factory even, which is a way that some of these companies promote these dupes. You know, it feels very satisfying, like you found a deal. Everyone loves a deal.

[David Brown]

You know, that's. I guess that's true. Now I can imagine that the younger demographic is mostly leading the charge on this trend. Or is that true or fair?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think there's a connection to TikTok and influencer culture. You know, I think some of the best or most popular dupes come from some no name Amazon or Shein seller that it would be hard to find, maybe on your own, but you find a Reddit thread or you find a TikTok influencer who says, oh, these are just as good or even better than this anthropology dress, and I recommend it. So I think how exposed you are to influencer culture helps your being open minded to this.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe we can hear Nino Pool once again, for those who don't know, she's an influencer. Blew up online identifying and ranking the best affordable beauty dupes. And I think she has something like 4.6 million followers on TikTok. Let's listen to Nina Poole and how she does her thing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I share the things that I actually use. I find you dubes for things that you use. Okay. We compare products. We find the cheaper alternative because we have no money. And if you have money, that's great and you don't want to spend it, you're welcome here too.

[David Brown]

Yeah, I think that's sort of critical there. If you got your money, you're welcome here too. And I'm wondering if, because these are lower priced items, that it's a more accessible world for influencers and their followers. What do you think?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I have found that when people buy something that they know they could have spent more money buying a version of it elsewhere, their expectations are a little bit lower.

[David Brown]

Interesting.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And they're more easily satisfied. And I think some influencers, like it seems Nina have a better reputation for sourcing those dupes. So maybe they're not as connected with the name brands and therefore have more authority in that kind of alternative product space.

[David Brown]

I want to ask you about the rise of the queen of dupes. You know the one, Quince. There's this uber popular website called Quince and I know you've reported about that in some detail. Could you say more about Quince?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Quince is a company that's fairly new, started right before the pandemic and has exploded in growth. They're known for their cashmere sweaters, but they sell lab grown diamond earrings and supplements and couches and baby clothes. It runs the gamut. I wrote about it because it's a very popular brand with our readers. And what's different about Quince is that every item they have that they list has an explicit comparison point for another brand.

[David Brown]

Oh, interesting. So that separates it from like say AliExpress or some of these other online super discount retailers.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. Like if you're on Amazon or Shein, it doesn't say this. You could get this dress at J. Crew at more at a higher price. But at Quince, it's all explicitly listed out so you know exactly what the dupe is meant to be duplicating. And it's been a very effective strategy. And they've also just been very shrewd about choosing which products to copy. For example, they have a great reputation in the sweaters specifically for duping these Jenny Kane sweaters, which is a brand that is not that well known, unless maybe you're following certain media publications. It's a women's, California, sort of upscale, kind of quiet, luxury, cashmere and home goods brand. The sweaters are, you know, 400, 500.

[David Brown]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So it's not, it's not like Hermes, but it's in that middle space. So, yeah, it's not cheap. But Quince realized that a lot of women wanted those sweaters, didn't want to pay that price, and replicated the style and shape and made a great business out of it.

[David Brown]

I'm sitting here shaking my head thinking, how do they get away with this without getting mountains of cease and desist letters? Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I mean, I think they are getting some pushback in the background and they have been sued by Yeti and Uggs, which I think are makers who have a more claim on their design of their products. But again, in fashion, it's really tricky. You can't trademark a cashmere sweater.

[David Brown]

How do they keep their prices so low then?

[Ryan Reynolds]

They've just been very shrewd about, you know, the relationships that they have with factories and keeping their margins low. They don't have stores and then the big thing is that they ship many or most of their products directly to customers from their factories in Asia, which allows them to bypass some customs and duties on the way in and allows them to be more flexible with their inventory.

[David Brown]

So what about Quince's competition? I'm thinking about the online retailers, Taemu and Shein. What are some of the differences here?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, Temu and Shein are the ones that are more direct competitors and much bigger than Quince and I think have the potential to really disrupt Amazon and Macy's and sort of those other larger national retailers. So Shein has much more influence in the fashion market in the United States, but it's a brand that I think is not quite as mysterious at this point to our readers. Which is why I wanted to dive into Quints because it feels more upscale than shopping on Shein. Shein can sometimes feel a little sketchy when you're on the website, the Quint's website, the messaging, it all feels sort of like the direct to consumer slick branding that we've seen over the last decade. It feels like a Silicon Valley startup, even if the products, you know, are all coming from Asia or whatever. But it feels very slick. Quince has like a very consistent aesthetic point of view and I think really speaks to millennials who want, you know, floor to ceiling linen curtains and cashmere sweaters. You know, there's a very specific aesthetic that unites the items there. Whereas Shein and Timu, the product catalog is infinite feeling and isn't aesthetically organized around a certain idea.

[David Brown]

How much of a disruptor do you consider, say, quints to be when you think about the long haul? And one of the reasons I'm asking that is because right now we're having a real big moment when it comes to trade and tariffs, possibility of trade wars. And I wonder if, in a way, we're going to see dupes at the heart of a lot of that back and forth.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, I think it has the potential to be there, especially thinking about this import model of small imports that fall under this $800 limit which President Trump has said that he wants to eliminate and briefly eliminated in February, but has reopened this sort of tariff loophole. Example, the increased tariffs that we've seen in the last couple of months on China do not apply to these items. So it's an interesting the loophole continues and it will be interesting to see if that's a temporary thing or if it does get closed in the way that has been threatened. But, you know, the retailers are used to this sort of chaos and, you know, they hop from country to country. If there's a loophole on China, then they'll start shipping their things out of Vietnam. You know, they can move with what makes the most financial sense for them.

[David Brown]

Interesting, interesting.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The Quince model, which is following the Sheehan model to a certain degree, could be very disruptive to retailers in the United States, not just because of the way they import, but also because of the way that they manage inventory, where they're able to scale up from smaller batches of items and test a product without having to order so many and then bring them in sort of one at a time to customers.

[David Brown]

I'm wondering how our newfound obsession with Duke reflects the economy at large. I mean, Nina Poole said in the clip that we heard earlier talking about how we don't have any money. And those of you who do, you're welcome to listen in, too. But to the point you have rising inflation, higher costs of living. I'm wondering if this doesn't say something about the moment that we're in and what that might further say about whether or not we're done with luxury, we're ready for the age of affordability, that, yeah, we love the Lux, but at the same time we're willing to compromise to get at least a taste of it if it can be cheap, cheap, cheap, absolutely.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And I think especially we're talking about discretionary Items, Right. So no one needs another T shirt. Their closets are full. So when people are shopping for discretionary items like fashion and beauty, that price sensitivity goes even higher. You know, it's interesting, the pandemic, there were sort of a couple of different things happening. One was that apparel prices in the United States increased really significantly for the first time in decades. Because since the advent of fast fashion, you know, in the late 70s and 80s, and it's grown to take over the market. You know, apparel prices relative to inflation had gone down. And in the pandemic, there was a bit of a correction. And people were at home more. They were not going to restaurants. They were spending more on. On items that they could order in. And that's when we saw the luxury market had a huge boom. You know, they had incredible growth, like unprecedented growth. These big companies like lvmh, Hermes, carrying that own the big luxury brands. And at the same time, they increased their prices radically, even more radically than, you know, the rest of the apparel market, like a Chanel bag before the pandemic and after the price doubled. So, you know, I think coming out of that period, there was more consumer frustration with these price increases. And that has also fueled this sort of interest in dupes and kind of a jaded sense of, what am I even getting with this brand name? Am I being just pushed to spend?

[David Brown]

Am I the dupe just for the sake of it?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. Am I being duped? Yes, exactly.

[David Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, having said that, you've been awfully generous with your time. I wonder if there isn't a dupe or two that you might be. You might feel comfortable sort of leaving us with maybe something that would pay for us to check out.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes. So I will admit I'm not a huge dupes person, but there was one that I purchased a few years ago that comes recommended all the time, which is a Lululemon leggings dupe that's sold on Amazon from a brand like Crazy Yoga. And I have, you know, several of these Lululemon leggings, and I just needed a backup one for when the laundry hadn't happened. And I didn't want to spend the Lululemon price. And I. I got this. This dupe of the legging, and it was great, honestly.

[David Brown]

Oh, wow.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Will it last me as long as Lululemon? Maybe not, but it was helpful, so.

[David Brown]

Yeah, well, you've been really helpful helping us understand and this whole dupe culture and all that flows from it. Chantal Fernandez is a feature writer at the Cut, where She covers fashion, beauty and business, and you can check out her reporting@the cut.com Chantal, thanks so much for joining us.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you for having me, David.

[David Brown]

Coming up, we're telling the story of Whole Foods, a story of both business success and how an idealistic founder made good on his dream of changing American food culture. It's also a story of what gets lost on the way to the top. Make sure to join us for the next episode of Business wars from Wondery. This is episode three of Price wars, the fall of the dollar stores for Business Wars. I'm your host, David Brown. Kelly Kyle produced this episode. Peter A.R. cooney is our senior interview producer. Our producer is Tristan Donovan. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blalott. Our senior managing producer is Callum Plews. Our senior producers are Emily Frost and Dave Schilling. Our producer emeritus is Karen Lowe. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie. For wondering what if your mind could.

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