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- [00:01]
A
Wonder. I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars. These days, hot sauce is a hot topic. One prime example that mega popular YouTube series Hot Ones, where host Sean Evans sits down with celebrities as they try hotter and hotter sauces on their wings.
- [00:43]
B
I'm fine. I'm perfectly fine.
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A
I'm not.
- [00:51]
B
That had any effect on Conan.
- [00:53]
A
And it seems like everyone's launching their own hot sauce lines too. Reality TV stars, musicians, actors. I hear Motley Crue has its own batch.
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B
The New Insane Hot Sauce Collection from.
- [01:05]
A
The Crue Live Wire Hot Sauce Primal Scream Scorpion Pepper Hot Sauce this condiment craze is in full swing and the numbers seem to back it up. In 2023, global sales for hot sauce and condiments hit nearly $200 billion, up from 150 billion in 2019. There are many factors contributing to this boom and one we fong with its category defining Sriracha is definitely one of them. In the 2000 and tens, the company's garlicky chili based sauce had foodies hooked. You'd find it on avocado toast, deviled eggs, even pasta. But Sriracha was just the beginning. Now that the hot sauce floodgates have been opened, you'll find ingredients like hot honey, gochujang and chili crisp popping up everywhere. Joseph Hernandez is the Associate Director of Drinks and Lifestyle at Bon Appetit. He'll explain how he uses some of these popular condiments and how they became so hot in our culture later on. Chef and best selling author Nick Sharma breaks down the science of spice and why some folks can handle their heat without breaking a sweat while others squirm. In fact, Nick is literally going to put me in the hot seat, guiding me through a taste test of some spicy ingredients, including a Thai chili pepper, and he's going to be giving us the science behind each flavor. Ended reaction. Hope I can handle it getting spicy in here y' all. Stick around.
- [02:31]
C
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A
AI to turn into ROI and wondering how long you have to wait, maybe you need to do more than wait.
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B
Any business can use AI.
- [03:29]
A
IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM. Joseph Hernandez, welcome to Business Wars.
- [03:42]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [03:43]
A
Tell me a little bit about how you found yourself at Bon Appetit. Were you a reader when you were younger or what?
- [03:50]
B
Oh, yeah, for sure. I went to journalism school, and one day I realized that food writing was a potential career, to my mother's chagrin, and just did everything I could to kind of get into the world. Shortly after college, I started working in a wine shop, and it was the advent of blogging and using my newfangled journalism degree, I started writing for the wine shop while also learning about wine and flavor and all the good things that wine goes with. And slowly developed my palate and somehow some way carved a career out for myself in this crazy food world.
- [04:30]
A
Is there an intersection between what you know about wine? I'm thinking flavor notes and that kind of thing, and condiments?
- [04:38]
B
Oh, yeah. I think if we're being honest, I was a condiment sommelier long before I got into it.
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A
Really? Really?
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B
Yes, really.
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A
What's your number one? What's your go to?
- [04:49]
B
Oh, gosh. Back in the day, it might have been crystal hot sauce on fried chicken. That was, you know, an early foray. I loved ketchup growing up. I'm Filipino, so in my home, we had banana ketchup, which may not be familiar to most people.
- [05:05]
A
No, it's not. From not familiar to me. What is banana ketchup?
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B
Banana ketchup actually has its origins In World War II, when the United States partnered with the Philippines. Army men brought over ketchup, and tomatoes don't grow in the Philippines. Too humid. But the condiment really caught on quickly, and so it was adapted to the local palate.
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A
Oh, that is fascinating.
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B
And we use it in spaghetti, which is a delight.
- [05:30]
A
Wow.
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B
It pisses Italians off. So I am sorry to all of your Italian listeners, but banana ketchup is a real delight and joy for me and my Filipino heart.
- [05:43]
A
That is so wonderful. Now you got me curious. I'm gonna have to check it out for sure.
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B
It makes a really great barbecue sauce.
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A
Really? Well, I guess it would, right? You have a little bit of that sweetness. Exactly. I love that. I love that, you know, since you know a thing or two about condiments. I can remember a moment the first time I heard about Sriracha. It seemed like I had missed out until everyone was wearing T shirts and you saw all the, you know, all the bric a brac that went along. And everyone wanted Sriracha, right? Mm.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah. Sriracha really did have a cultural moment around 2010. There's kind of a wave that crashes around cultural exchanges where suddenly it's the thing that we talk about. And I think hot sauce has always made. And specifically condiments has always been an easy entry point for people to kind of try and experiment with new flavors. There was a time when some of these items would be, you know, in the international aisle or, you know, the.
- [06:42]
A
Right. Right.
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B
The formerly known ethnic aisle of grocery stores. Now a lot of these things are just classified with all the other, like, items. So I see Sriracha more in the hot sauce category rather than all on its own in some nondescript international aisle.
- [07:00]
A
Where do you think we are with Sriracha? Is its popularity? Has it been sustained?
- [07:06]
B
I think it's very much now firmly ensconced in the American diet. There are big companies that are now behind their own brands. I can think of like Heinz having their version, Tabasco having its own version of Sriracha.
- [07:20]
A
Irony of it. My goodness gracious.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah. There's artisanal brands and even more Thai brands are coming in. So it's interesting now that you can go to the grocery store and go to the hot sauce aisle. And now there are, you know, options rather than just the one fire, red, green topped bottle that we all know and love. There are now just a wide range of styles, even.
- [07:44]
A
I sort of wonder if, in a way, Soracha may be opening up our senses to the next incredible thing, you know, coming down the pike. And I guess you've picked up on gochujang. Clearly a different flavor altogether, but at the same time, a lot of, shall we say, hype. I know the Internet's been buzzing about gochujang. I think for a lot of folks, it's still considered very exotic. And I think there will be listeners who have never tried it. Where would you find gochujang? And do you use it in your own recipes?
- [08:16]
B
Yes. Fun fact. Growing up, my childhood best friends were Korean, and so I would Attend Bible study and Sunday school. My Korean friends and the aunties at the Sunday school would feed us. And it was my first, you know, exposure to Korean food. And gochujang was one of them. And they would teach me how to cook. So when gochujang hit the scene, I was already familiar with it. For your audience who is unfamiliar, it's a Korean fermented chili paste. It's deeply flavored. It comes in these little tubs. They're really thick. When you kind of dig into the gochujang, kind of like tomato paste out of a can, same thickness, depending on your brand. And you can kind of use it in the same way. It's really great. If you mix it into tomato sauce, mix it into a soup, it's not hot in the same way that sriracha is hot and sharp. The heat is a little bit more subdued. It's a little earthier. There's a sweetness to it that comes from how the peppers are fermented and aged. So you're not getting so much blistering hot heat. Getting something a little bit warmer, Kind of like a buzz of heat instead.
- [09:27]
A
Yeah. Speaking of buzz, seems like it's in everything. They got cookies now pasta. I mean, everyone loves to make fun of this stuff. It seems like it's in every recipe. What do you think that's going to mean for gochujang? Do you think it's a flash in the pan, so to speak, no pun intended, or do you think that we're talking about a long term relationship here?
- [09:48]
B
I think it's more the latter. I think it's more long term. It's so everyday to Korean cooking. And as grocery stores like H Mart, which is kind of the leading Korean grocery store that has made it stateside and has been growing in major cities around the country and opening up in rural places, as that becomes more widespread, people will become more familiar with gochujang and everyday American adaptations. It's quite versatile. It's quite easy to use. I mentioned barbecue sauce earlier. I love adding gochujang to store bought barbecue sauce to add a little bit more of that kind of sweet heat.
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A
Oh, that is really interesting.
- [10:27]
B
Yeah. You can just riff on it very easily in the same way that you can riff on sriracha.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah. You know, when hot sauce really sort of seemed to grab the imagination of so many Americans. I think of that as in the early, maybe late 80s, early 90s, when we started to see people coming out with all kinds of different specialty hot sauces. And soon you had stores that would just sell all these. And now look where we are. Hot Ones. Right. For listeners who haven't seen Hot ones, it's on YouTube. It's all over the place. It's one of the top performers on YouTube. Something like 15 million subscribers. A terrific host of this program, Sean Evans. And basically what he does is he gets celebrities to come on, and as the conversation goes, he sort of ups the ante with every new set of wings. Hotter and hotter wings. Over the course of an episode, you put on more and more different types of hotter and hotter. In fact, I think we've got a clip where the host, Sean Evans, is sitting down with chef Gordon Ramsay. I think this video has something like 133 million views. This is Gordon eating one of the spicier wings. Check it out. That's like sticking your tongue in a plate of acid. Mm. Jesus Christ.
- [11:43]
D
Yes.
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A
What the fuck's gonna happen tomorrow? When I'm back behind the line tasting and perfected? Where the going to be tomorrow? Cause I may not have to call you. Oh, that is just. Why do we put ourselves through this? What is there? Of course it's funny, but I think we've all kind of experienced that moment where, you know, when we least expect it or we think we can take more of the hot sauce. What do you think the appeal of Hot Ones is?
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B
I love Hot Ones, and it's crazy. That's been around for 10 years already.
- [12:17]
A
Has it been 10 years already? Yes. Wow.
- [12:19]
B
It's been 10 years. Yeah. We actually had the pleasure of interviewing Sean Evans for Bon Appetit in celebration of 10 years back in March, my staff writer, Sam Stone, sat down with him and talked to him about Hot Ones and the format. I think one of the really astute things that Sean had told Sam was that the wings serve two purposes and the hot sauces serve two purposes. In the interview, One of them is, you know, just having an activity for the celebrity who is so media trained to, like, focus on outside of the interview, kind of drops the wall a little bit.
- [12:54]
A
Yeah. The fourth wall just kind of falls apart when they're trying to struggle to get the words out. Right.
- [12:59]
B
Right. And then. And then you get the second part, which is that as soon as that heat hits, they're. They're now just a human in an extreme situation and having to react to it, as opposed to being a celebrity with something to sell. You know, I. I, for one, am not really a risk taker or a daredevil when it comes to heat. So you know, you'll never catch me on Hot One, but Hot Ones is really one of my favorite interview shows because it's not about the hot sauce. The hot sauce is a vehicle to.
- [13:36]
A
A human moment, you know, Boy, that really does nail it. It's that human moment. And yet one of the things that I think is fascinating is how they've parlayed this into their own hot sauce business. I understand it, right. They've got a brand. I guess Hot Ones is the brand of their hot sauce, and each year they add new flavors. The Last Dab, I guess that's has a Scoville rating of something like more than 2 million Shu. Hard to believe.
- [14:04]
B
Hard to believe. Like, what are we doing?
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A
What are we doing? I mean, that's. I mean, as a serious question, what is going on there? I think Ed Sheeran has a hot sauce line.
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B
Motley Crue.
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A
You're kidding. Really?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Mm. Shout at the devil. So who else has hot sauces out there? I didn't. I wasn't aware of Motley cruelty.
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B
Yeah, Motley Crue has one. Ed Sheeran, Danny Trejo, beloved character actor.
- [14:30]
A
With these celebrity sauces. Are any of them any good?
- [14:33]
B
It's hard to tell. I can't speak to all of the brands because I haven't had them all. I am a fan of the Hot Ones Heatonist brand because they offer a range of hot sauces, so you don't have to go totally crazy with what you're getting. Last Dab is honestly last resort. You get to have that experience as both the viewer and fan of the celeb and also, like, try it alongside with them. So I think that they've created an experience for their audience. They are a media company that also found a way to create a product that exists in the world that can be experienced outside of their show. So that is really unique thinking.
- [15:13]
A
You've been really generous with your time, but I'm just curious. Are there any trends, perhaps condiments, that we should be on the lookout for that. That haven't quite hit that hype moment just yet?
- [15:25]
B
Hot Honey has been kind of making slow growth into the area. It's not so hot. I think it's a lot milder than the branding has pushed forward. It's just nice to have a little bit of sweet and a little bit of heat on, like a slice of pizza on a chicken nugget or a chicken tender. So you're gonna be seeing that a lot more. I think you're gonna see a lot more cultural flavors, kind of hit the market. There's the fancy food show that that takes place in New York and the West Coast.
- [15:56]
A
The fancy food show.
- [15:58]
B
Yeah. It's kind of like the comic con of grocery stores. Basically it's a huge convention of just the latest food trends that are coming out for grocery buyers. And you see a lot more cultural flavors coming out. Sriracha and gochujang have, like, paved the way to kind of capture this global mindset for what flavors will hit the market. I think we're gonna see more South American flavors, so, like milder sauces that are still kind of pepper forward. I think you're going to see more spice driven stuff maybe from Africa and India that kind of are closer to gochujang than sriracha in terms of being something that you cook with as opposed to something that you finish a meal with.
- [16:40]
A
Yeah.
- [16:41]
B
And I look to the fancy food show every year for what's kind of coming down the market because it means that these grocery store execs are also aware of these new explorations into the palate.
- [16:53]
A
Joseph, thanks so much for joining us. Great to talk to you.
- [16:56]
B
Thanks for having me, David. This was so fun.
- [16:57]
A
Joseph Hernandez is the associate director of drinks and lifestyle for Bon Appetit. You can find his reporting@bon appetit.com Coming up.
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D
Take a tiny bite. Let's start small. What do you think?
- [17:09]
A
I admit I took more than a tiny bite. Milk. Milk. Uh oh. Author and chef Nick Sharma guides me through a taste test of some of the hottest condiments out there and explains the science behind the spot. Stick around. This episode is brought to you by Prize Picks. You and I make decisions every day. But on Prize Picks, being right can get you paid. Don't miss any of the excitement this season on Prize Picks, where it's good to be right. Look, I'm a hardcore Longhorns fan, and no matter the team, it's fun to be a fan and play Prize picks. See, Prize Picks is a daily fantasy sports platform where you can predict whether an athlete, say, I don't know, a certain quarterback perhaps, will perform more or less than their projected statistical total. But it's different from a lot of fantasy sports games in that you're playing against the house. Plus, there's no salary cap for choosing players week one. I'll admit I didn't do so well. Lot of surprises. Thought Manning would be a lot more creative. But I got a strategy now. Doing the winning lineup payout, going with the flex play, where even if your lineup isn't Perfect. You can still cash out. Ha. That's what I'm talking about. Prize picks Invented the flex play. You can double your money even if one pick doesn't hit. And look, as much as I enjoy college football season, it's always more fun with skin in the game, right? Just pick more or less on two to six players, stat projections and if you get your picks right, you too could cash in. You got this. Download the app today and use code BW to get $50 in lineups after you play your first five dollar lineup. You gotta try it. This one's on us. Don't forget to use code BW to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Prize picks. It's good to be right. You hear it all the time on Business Wars. The battles between brands, the bold moves, the breakthroughs. But behind every winning business, there's something less talked about. Great. IT. That's where ManageEngine comes in. ManageEngine ManageGen offers a comprehensive suite of AI powered IT management solutions that give you complete control over your IT operations. Your employees can collaborate securely, your IT admins can easily monitor and manage devices, and you get full visibility of your data hygiene. ManageEngine also integrates well with most popular IT software programs out there. So if you're a growing business or an organization looking for enterprise grade IT management and cybersecurity solutions, visit manageengine.com to take control of your IT. That's www.manage.com. hey, welcome back to Business Wars. Have you ever wondered why some people can scarf down a spicy curry without thinking twice while others are sweating over their plate? Well, the science of how our taste buds handle spice is quite complex with many physical and psychological factors playing into that tolerance that each of us have. Well, Chef Nick Sharma knows all about this. He studied molecular biology before pivoting to food and nowadays he's an editor in residence at America's Test Kitchen and the author of three best selling cookbooks, each revealing new ways to innovate with classic ingredients, ingredients and flavor. And today he joins us to talk about heat, spice and the science behind them. Nick Sharma, welcome to Business Wars.
- [20:56]
D
Thank you, David.
- [20:57]
A
What is this? A background in molecular biology. How did you make the jump to food?
- [21:03]
D
This was several years ago. I'm in grad school and just doing all these experiments, sitting for hours at end in a closed room. And this was in Cincinnati, Ohio. It's winter. You come outside and then suddenly it's dark by 4:00 clock in the evening. And then all My friends who weren't in science were out having fun and, you know, going out to eat at restaurants. So I said to myself, oh, my gosh, I'm sitting here. I love the science. This is why I'm in a lab. But there's also a part of my life that is just not entertaining or exciting. I'm missing out on something. And don't get me wrong, it's all fun. But when you go outside and you're meeting people, you want to have conversations outside, what you're doing in a lab. And for me, that became food because it was the same thing. Being in a kitchen and being in a lab. You're testing out new things all the time. You're trying to look for answers. You want to make your food better, your recipes better. You're trying to learn about new ingredients, new techniques. It's the same approach, like cooking. So I saw so many parallels, which is why it became kind of second nature to me when I decided to leave science to move into the world of food, because it gave me that creativity that I was missing. And I was excited. I was happy to wake up in the morning to do something different every day. And it seduced me. It just brought me in.
- [22:23]
A
I get a sense that maybe it's your background in the laboratory, but sounds like you have fun experimenting with flavor.
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D
I do, because it teaches me so much. There are things that I'm familiar with because of.
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A
Of.
- [22:36]
D
I grew up in India, and then also, you know, my time spent in America. And I'm familiar with certain things, but when I learn things that I'm unfamiliar with, it helps me push the boundaries for myself. But also it gives me an opportunity to learn and then share that knowledge with people. And that's what makes me happy.
- [22:53]
A
Nick, a big part of flavor is spice and heat. What's your relationship with heat?
- [22:59]
D
So I did not like hot food growing up, and I get this a lot from people. They say, oh, you're Indian, so you love hot food. No, I couldn't handle hot food until I got older. I would say in the past two years is when I started to appreciate the heat from capsaicin and chilies, black pepper a lot more. It's more exciting now, and I think that's because I'm getting older.
- [23:21]
A
Interesting. When you get older, do you just develop a tolerance for heat?
- [23:25]
D
There's that. So you do develop a tolerance for heat. You're also your receptors. As you age, they start to get fewer, and it makes you experience less of those flavors. But my brain has also started to create this wire loop of reward. Like, oh, this actually isn't so bad. It's exciting. I'm enjoying it, so I want to eat it again. And another thing that heat does, it makes us salivate more. It makes us excited about those tastes. They feel fuller.
- [23:56]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I see. I'm so glad that you talk about the brain coming up with this loop, Because I feel like ever since I was a kid and I had that first taste of tabasco sauce, I don't know, it was almost, like, addictive. I kept looking, sort of chasing down the next bit of heat. You know what I'm talking about? I was looking for something that was a little bit hotter, a little bit more pushing my own boundaries. Like it was an adventure almost. You know what I mean?
- [24:26]
D
Oh, thrill seeking. You were looking to seek, like, a little bit of adventure and danger, and that's not uncommon. A lot of people who love hot food, and I don't mean temperature by this, I mean the heat of chilies. They love it because you can experience danger in a very safe space. You know that usually, okay, there are some hot chili peppers, where you'll probably end up hospitalized, but you're experiencing danger in a safe environment where you feel comfortable enough to. To push the boundaries. And so you feel, wow, like, you know, I've done that. I can do it again. Maybe I'll try it a little bit harder the next time. And so that's exactly what a lot of this is. There's that again, that reward loop mechanism, the danger in a safe space, that's happening. So your brain is rewiring and making these connections and saying, hmm, you know what? I'm gonna do that again.
- [25:15]
A
What's the spiciest thing you've ever eaten?
- [25:18]
D
The ghost pepper.
- [25:19]
A
The ghost pepper. All right. Yeah. You like it?
- [25:23]
D
Did you enjoy? I wouldn't do it again. I wouldn't do it again.
- [25:26]
A
Really?
- [25:26]
D
Yeah.
- [25:27]
A
See, I'm kind of a fan. I have to be honest with you. We'll get there. But I had an experience once, and it's interesting that you should say I was chasing after this adventure Because I could never psychologically put together what it was that I was chasing. I haven't consciously thought of it as looking for a safe space for adventure, But I did have this experience once. I was on a date with this young woman, and this would have been the early 90s, and I had never before seen again. Early 90s. I'd never before seen, like, it was, like, one of these carts that they have Set up where they're selling a lot of stuff. I'd never before seen, like a hot sauce cart like that. And this guy had all sorts of different things you could sample. And I guess I wanted to show off a little bit to this, you know, young woman. So you know where this is going, right? Oh, totally. So I said, let me try the hottest stuff you've got. And so he put this stuff on. And I remember it had a taste of molasses to it and I tried it and I said, ah, it's nothing. Put a little bit more on that cracker, you know. And I put it on and I really couldn't taste the heat. It tasted much more sweet than hot, you know. So I thanked him and we started walking down toward the escalator, maybe about 10 yards. And suddenly I felt that my insides were burning like I was exploding from the inside out, you know. And we were going down the escalator and I kept shedding clothes. I was just like taking off my shirt, making quite a scene apparently. We got down to the bottom of the escalator and I just had to find a place to lie down. And people were sort of, you know, they were looking around, scared, you know, I went and found just lie down. And after about five minutes it had passed. The good news here is that that young woman who was with me at the time, we ended up getting married. So, you know, we're still together. So it must have been. Must have been something that I ate, huh? But in any event, I remember really being scared at that point because I just didn't know, you know, and apparently if it's too hot, you were saying just a moment ago, it can cause a true full on health crisis.
- [27:42]
D
Did you drink water by any chance during this whole thing?
- [27:45]
A
I might have had a sip, yeah. Might have had a sip.
- [27:47]
D
Okay. Okay, so water makes it worse.
- [27:50]
A
Great. Now I know. See, I thought there was something maybe with the molasses I was having like a. Maybe some kind of allergic reaction. But no, I think it must have been something really serious sort of buried into that taste or something.
- [28:03]
D
So this is what happens, right? Like you're having this hot sauce. The molasses is kind of. It's tricking you, it's tricking your taste receptors. You're saying, oh, this is sweet, I can do it. Let me just. It's masking a lot of that heat initially and then it starts to slide in and it stays in your throat, then it starts to move down and then that fire rush happens inside your body. And you feel like you're gonna burn up, right? So that's like the pain receptors and the heat receptors, because that's what capsaicin, the active molecule in Chili's, does. It activates those receptors for pain and temperature. And so that's what's going on in your. And then you drink water. Water is the worst thing to drink.
- [28:44]
A
I would have never guessed that. Why?
- [28:46]
D
So capsaicin is a fat soluble molecule, which means the only way to take it away or to move it around is fat, oil, butter. And so this is why everyone tells people who have chilies to drink some kind of dairy, drink milk, or have some yogurt. If you look at a lot of cultures where chilies are prominent, especially I'll give you the example of Indian cooking where I'm from, a lot of Indian food often served with some kind of fermented dairy in the form of yogurt, buttermilk. Because the proteins and the fats in milk are able to bind capsaicin and lock it away.
- [29:23]
A
That is fascinating. I didn't know what the science was there. That's really interesting.
- [29:27]
D
But what water does is it just spreads everything all over the place.
- [29:32]
A
Oh, gosh. Now, riddle me this, chef. Why is it that even after that, what felt like a near death experience that day, I still crave heat? Somehow or another, what do you think that is?
- [29:47]
D
It just makes a lot of things better, right? It's like it's. Think of it like a contrast. So you've got all these different tastes, sweet, sour, bitter, salty in dishes. And umami. I can't forget umami. You've got all of these layered in there. You've got these beautiful aromas. And flavor is 80% aroma. That's one of the most important things. Then you've got chilies, which add this sudden jolt of contrast to everything. If you use chilies in desserts, they can actually taste very interesting. You see this in Mexican culture. They've got chilies that go onto fruits with salt. You see this in Indian culture. You see this in Thai food, where, Thai food, they'll add sugar to a lot of their spicy curries. That's what's causing all this flavor contrast. The chilies add this extra layer of like, I like to call this electric jolt that makes everything even more interesting. So it becomes interesting to your brain, especially if you're unfamiliar with it. And then you say, wow, I really enjoyed my experience. I want to do that again.
- [30:46]
A
Huh. I wonder what affects spice tolerance, though. Why is it that some people can handle it and other people can't. I wonder how much of it is psychological versus physiological.
- [30:55]
D
A lot of it is psychological because your brain is rewiring and telling you that you like this, you've enjoyed it. You can probably go higher than. There's also this thing about it felt safe, even though it was kind of terrifying in that moment, but you enjoyed it. So a lot of these things do play into our psyche. And the brain is probably the most important thing when it comes to appreciating flavor or even hating it. Think about dishes that you loved as a child. If your grandmother made something for you, like an apple pie with cinnamon, it still conjures up memories of love, emotion, happiness, and joy. You can even remember the smell of cinnamon, right?
- [31:33]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [31:34]
D
So if you had a positive experience with it, you'll always think about it, come back to it. It makes you feel happy and safe. Now, if you've had a really negative, bizarre experience with something, you'll probably and quite likely never go back to. That dish. For me, a lot like bitter melon. I hated bitter melon as a child. My parents forced me to eat it. I still don't eat bitter melon as an adult. I just. It disgusts me. And so I've had this negative experience with it also, sometimes with food. If you eat food and you're emotionally off, say your sports team has lost a game or someone's died in the family, okay. And you've had a negative experience, you may not want to actually eat a lot in that moment. And that also affects your perception of flavor, whether you want to eat more of it. So a lot of, like, our brain has such a huge impact on the way we appreciate or dislike flavor. It's fascinating.
- [32:27]
A
Let's take a quick break. Coming up, we're going to dive deeper into the difference between spice and heat with a bonafide taste test. One that will literally put me in the hot seat. Can I handle it? Stick around to find out.
- [32:44]
E
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- [33:49]
A
Welcome back to Business Wars. My guest is Nick Sharma, a molecular biologist turned shop chef who's authored several cookbooks, including the Flavor Equation and Veg Table. Now, Nick, we've been dancing around something I want to face head on. There is a difference between spice and heat. I mean, this. I think what we're about to do is going to sort of underscore that. But just because something spicy, we should note, doesn't necessarily mean it's hot. Explain the difference as you see it.
- [34:19]
D
This is an important distinction to make in cooking. Spice and heat don't really mean the same thing. Let's start with heat. So heat can mean temperature when you serve food hot, but it also refers to ingredients like black pepper, wasabi, chilies, which provide this sensation of heat. And then you have spices. Spices. Most spices will taste bitter. Almost all of them taste bitter. And spices are things that come from plants. They're usually dried. And these spices provide aroma. So like cinnamon in an apple pie, cardamom in an ice cream, or in mangoes, those are things that provide this depth of aroma to amplify the taste in a dish.
- [35:04]
A
So does it stand to reason, then, that if I'm eating a spice and I hold my nose, that I'm not going to really taste it, but when it comes to, say, a hot pepper, I'll still feel it?
- [35:16]
D
You're absolutely spot on. But there's a slight distinction I want to make, and we'll see this in a little bit. Some spices will affect your sense of temperature and other things, too, even sound sometimes. And we've got spices like cinnamon that also create the sensation of warmth, because the chemicals, the essential oils that are present in there, they can also interact with our temperature receptors.
- [35:42]
A
Interesting. That's really interesting. Well, I think the time has come here, Nick. We wanted to put a few spices to the test, literally. And what better way to understand the differences you're talking about here than with a taste test? We've gathered a few spicy ingredients here, and I was hoping that maybe you could guide me through a tasting in real time to point out what I should be looking for with each of these. Oh, boy. This is a little intimidating here. Yeah. Each of these tastes. Yeah, yeah. What should I go for number one here?
- [36:14]
D
Well, let's start with the cardamom powder that's next to you.
- [36:16]
A
Okay. All right.
- [36:18]
D
Take a whiff. Just take a light whiff and tell me what you're feeling, what you sense right now.
- [36:24]
A
Little top here. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. You know what? This smells? This smells a little gingery. A little. It has a little citrus sort of edge to it.
- [36:38]
D
Take a little taste. Just put a little bit on your tongue. You don't need too much.
- [36:42]
A
Oh, wow. You know, it's interesting because in the very, like, first couple of seconds, it had, like, a little heat, it felt like. And then it dissipated, and now it tastes really fresh. Like those seeds that you sometimes see when you're leaving the Indian restaurant, the sweet fennels. It has a little bit of that sweetness to it as well. How is cardamom used, actually?
- [37:03]
D
So cardamom is a really interesting spice. You mentioned ginger earlier. It's from the same plant family, so the plants actually look like large ginger leaves. And cardamom has essential oils which create this cooling effect on the tongue. So when you put it on your tongue, you should feel like a nice, cool sensation. It's also one of the spices that loses its quality as soon as it's ground. I replace mine within three months because it's just not as potent. But in Indian cooking, it's used not only in savory dishes, but it's also used in sweet dishes.
- [37:37]
A
Interesting. Now, if I take a little bit of this in. Let me get a little bit in palm of my hand, and I'm gonna close my nose. My nose is closed now.
- [37:46]
D
Okay. Yeah, I'm Take a little.
- [37:48]
A
I'm gonna take a little bit.
- [37:49]
D
Yeah.
- [37:51]
A
It tastes like dirt.
- [37:52]
D
I can't really taste it because cardamom is, like. I want to say, like, 90% of what you experience with cardamom, 80% is aroma. But with cardamom, it's just so potent in terms of its aroma that we don't really pay attention to the taste. On its own, it's pretty. Like, why would you use it? There's nothing special about it.
- [38:12]
A
No, that's fascinating, right? Hey, yeah, absolutely. I've got a bag of something here that y' all ordered up for me. It's. It looks like green beans, but no, as I open the bag, these. Oh, my goodness. These look like peppers. What kind of peppers are these? So they're beautiful.
- [38:31]
D
Thai chili peppers. One of my favorite Peppers to use with cooking.
- [38:35]
A
Boy, they're beautiful. And they smell just wonderful. I love it. Now, do I dare bite into this? Cause I'm just not familiar with the Thai chili pepper.
- [38:45]
D
Take a tiny bite. Let's start small. Let's not go crazy.
- [38:49]
A
All right. Hmm.
- [38:52]
D
What do you think?
- [38:54]
A
I admit I took more than a tiny bite. Milk. Milk. I took a little more than a tiny bite, and I shouldn't have. But you see, there's that adventure seeker that you were talking about. It's quite good. Oh, my gosh. It is not as hot as some peppers that I've had before, but now this has really got me hankering for maybe ground chicken and something else.
- [39:27]
D
It's an all purpose chili. It's a beautiful all purpose chili. You can eat them whole. My dad would actually, and still does, eats them whole with salads.
- [39:37]
A
Really just take. Well, I can almost see that because as it's going down, I can really feel the heat. I can really feel the heat in my chest right now. But it's really flavorful, too.
- [39:49]
D
I feel it's got that beautiful grassy, vegetal kind of.
- [39:54]
A
I love that. Which is grassy. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:56]
D
And I feel like that's why it's really great as a garnish. But also you could blend it up in marinades. And then one of the things with chili is to make yourself look brave. If you can never eat a hot one, is to deep fry them. Make a slit, deep fry them, and then eat them. You will not feel. They will not taste as hot. And that's because the hot oil will extract all that capsaicin away. And it makes you look brave.
- [40:21]
A
Kids, don't try this at home. What should we move on to next? That was fantastic. That was really good.
- [40:27]
D
Now we should move on to something that's a little bit cooked.
- [40:31]
A
Okay.
- [40:32]
D
To experience heat in a different way. So let's do chili crisp. And I think we've got some chili crisp from Fly by Jane.
- [40:40]
A
Yes, absolutely. Now, for folks who don't know what chili crisp is, can we explain this? This looks like I've got a jar here, and it looks like there's chili in a red, very deep red oil of some kind.
- [40:56]
D
So chili crisp is this beautiful condiment that arose out of Asia, and the one that was the most popular and still is the most popular is the Lao Gan ma. And it's got a rich depth of umami in there. They've got chilies in there. Some people will put different kinds of nuts and spices, but overall, it's A chili condiment that also delivers umami. And people make them with different kinds of chilies so you could have different grades of heat. Some people will also add Chechuan peppercorns to give it that little tingle.
- [41:25]
A
Why do they call it crisp? Because there doesn't look like anything crisp in here, really.
- [41:29]
D
But it's because the chilies are fried in the oil.
- [41:32]
A
I see, I see. Okay, well, that makes a lot of sense now. Okay, so. And I would guess from the sound of how you were describing it there, with all the different ingredients, that everyone has their own sort of take on a chili crisp. Is that right?
- [41:45]
D
Right. That is true. You've got the crunch, you've got the textures in there from the different types of spices and seeds that are used. And then that oil also, which is carrying a lot of the heat in there.
- [41:56]
A
Okay, so now if I dig into this, do I have to be super careful? I have survived. I have survived the Thai chili peppers.
- [42:07]
D
Yeah, I feel you can go ahead.
- [42:08]
A
All right.
- [42:09]
D
Yeah.
- [42:09]
A
Well, here we go.
- [42:11]
D
You're a brave guy.
- [42:13]
A
This is sublime. Oh, my gosh.
- [42:17]
D
Isn't it so good?
- [42:18]
A
Oh, it is so good. And obviously it has a really creamy, oily sort of texture to it. But if you get a lot of those little crisps, those chili crisps together, the solid together. Mm. You could almost eat this on its own. But surely this must be, like, used primarily as, like, what, a topping on things or how did most people use chili crisp?
- [42:46]
D
Use it as a topping, like you said. So a finishing touch. I like to call it like a finishing touch to a dish. Say you've cooked something and you kind of want to just reinvent the same thing. If I had green beans that were steamed or sauteed or stir fried, I just sprinkle a little bit of chili crisp on top just before serving. And that's.
- [43:03]
A
Oh, that is so great. Yeah.
- [43:05]
D
You could also incorporate it into a sauce if you're making something like, say, peaches. If you're making a peach barbecue sauce.
- [43:11]
A
Could you put this on ice cream? I mean, is this. Would that be outrageous?
- [43:16]
D
Wonderful idea. And here's why. So ice cream, it's served at a low temperature. That means all of those sensations are heavily muted. Throw in chili crisp on top. The chili crisp crisp will try to activate some of those temperature receptors again. So you start experiencing this sensation of warmth and cool at the same time. It is a mind blowing, fascinating experience that everyone should try at least once.
- [43:40]
A
Fly by Jing is the brand here. Extra spicy chili crisp. And it is Sublime. It is so good. How do you top that? What are we gonna do?
- [43:53]
D
I think next we're gonna do something a little bit different. We're going to look at wasabi, which is almost always serv. Sushi. And it provides a different type of heat that happens when the plant is grated. So the cells inside break down, they release an enzyme. And this enzyme creates these molecules that provide this intensity of heat that's really hard to describe. I feel like when I eat wasabi and I take a chunk of it in my mouth, my entire mouth kind of chokes in on me because it's so intense, but it feels so good. And it doesn't last that long. Like chili heat lasts long. You'll feel it for a few hours, even the next day. Wasabi, you don't. So with wasabi, you have a little bit on your mouth, maybe with a cracker or a little bit of rice.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah. So you think I should just go ahead and smear a little bit?
- [44:46]
D
Just put a little dab? Yeah, just put a little dab there and put it in your mouth and chew it and hold it in your mouth for a little bit.
- [44:53]
A
All right, here we go. Mm, mm. Oh, you know. Woo, foo, woof, woo. You know what happens to me? Oh, this is like. It reminds me of extremely spicy mustard.
- [45:10]
D
And I don't think I'm the same family. Yeah, it's the same plant. It's the same plant family. The same enzymes.
- [45:16]
A
Oh, my gosh. It's like coming up through my sort of nose, you know, up through my sinuses.
- [45:21]
D
Yeah, your brain feels like it's going to explode.
- [45:23]
A
Exactly. Although in a good way. It's not. I don't feel. It's not painful. It's like, you know, you feel like you've just been cleansed or something. It's this wonderful sort of like eye popping feeling.
- [45:36]
D
Now close your nose. Don't breathe in, just close your nose.
- [45:39]
A
All right. Nose closed.
- [45:41]
D
Okay. How do you feel?
- [45:43]
A
I'm not feeling the heat exactly. Not feeling the heat at all.
- [45:46]
D
Yeah. So this is what happens with wasabi. These molecules that are produced by these enzymes in the wasabi plant, they're volatile, so they go up into your nose, they aggravate everything inside your nose, those receptors, which causes that burning sensation.
- [46:00]
A
Oh.
- [46:00]
D
And so when you close your nose, you don't feel all of that. It cuts it off.
- [46:04]
A
Oh, that's really interesting. That's really interesting. So this is a different kind of a heat sensation from the peppers that we've been having.
- [46:13]
D
Absolutely. And it's related to the mustard family. You see this kind of with any plants that belong to the mustard family, like the brassicas. So kale, arugula. Arugula has that black pepper flavor that people talk about all the time. It's a related chemical from the same family.
- [46:31]
A
That must be wonderful to know all this science and put together these recipes, Nick, I mean, because, you know, kind of why something works and that would, I think, give you a leg up in what you do.
- [46:42]
D
I just think it's so much more fascinating for me because in a way, cooking brings me closer to science and science brings me closer to cooking. It makes me appreciate nature a lot because a lot of this is just what's existing around us. We're just putting it together in different combinations.
- [46:57]
A
Nick Sharma, you've been a wonderful Sherpa, I must say. You have three cookbooks, seasons, the Flavor Equation and veg Table. Tell us about your latest book, Vegetable.
- [47:07]
D
So my latest book focuses on the plant kingdom, the plant families that we use to cook, so the common vegetables. There are recipes that will hopefully get you excited and to cook new things. We've got things from yuca to cabbage, from arugula to lettuce in cooked in very different ways. And I think you will love it because again, a lot of these flavors come into play in the way I lay off recipes. So go out, check it out. I hope you guys enjoy it.
- [47:33]
A
Nick, thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars. I've had so much fun. Sure do appreciate you joining us.
- [47:39]
D
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [47:41]
A
Nick Sharma is an author, chef and editor in residence at America's Test Kitchen. You can order his latest book, Best Table, wherever fine books are sold. From Wondery. This is episode three of the Great Sriracha Feud for Business Wars. I'm David Brown. Kelly. Kyle produced this episode. Our lead sound designer is Kyle Randall. Our producer is Tristan Donovan. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior producer is Emily Frost. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie for wondering.
- [48:30]
F
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