A (2:32)

Yeah. I love that that is what you guys, like, clung on to, because I was reading through his takeaways, and I'm like, oh, these are actually really good tips for our podcasters, for our listeners. These are things that we fully support and have said forever. And you guys are like, no, forget that. There's this one at the end of his post, and we're just gonna run with that.

C (2:50)

Yeah.

B (2:51)

So what are the findings, Kevin?

C (2:52)

All right, well, I. I've got to move quick because this is a quick cast, and so we only have, like, I don't know, we said. We say 10 minutes, but they always go over. But we're gonna keep it under 15 minutes. And I've got six things that. That are patterns that we've seen across 217 buzzcast episodes that are clear and actionable that I want to talk through. So the first one is that clear utility beats broad commentary 100% broadcasting. Okay. So titles do better when listeners instantly understand the benefit. Some good examples of this are some episodes that we've had that, like, the five mistakes that lose podcast listeners 25 plus creative marketing ideas. We like. That's a. A banner episode for us. We love that one. Understand podcast analytics like a pro. The weaker pattern of this is like the currency of connection for creators.

A (3:35)

Yeah.

C (3:35)

Which breaks my heart a little bit, because when Jordan wrote that, I was like, that is such beautiful wording.

A (3:40)

Cause it's pretty. Yeah.

B (3:42)

Why podfest felt different this year.

A (3:44)

Yeah. It's not as punchy.

B (3:45)

Huh? They. They also. They kind of just. They're like, if I wasn't at podfest and I didn't feel like it was different this year, then I'm going, why do I care about this, how these three people felt different at a podcast? So I get it.

C (3:58)

I do love these creative and wordsmith and, like, beautiful titles. They're. They're fun as podcasters and. And we used to do a lot more of them. Not even beautiful ones, just funny ones. Like, we would name episode titles from, like, a funny thing that we said in the episode or something like that.

A (4:15)

Yeah. And it didn't work at all.

C (4:17)

They don't work. They're. They're not effective. Now. Here's the thing all of, with all of these tips, if they've removed any of the joy of podcasting from you, don't do them. Because podcasting has to stay fun. Right? We're doing these for the most of us. These are hobbies, these are passion projects. And you have to keep your love of the game to be able to keep playing the game. But if your love of the game is waning because your download numbers are not where you want them to be, or you want to grow your reach and grow your audience and stuff like that, that's why we're giving this advice. So back to that point. Number one, clear utility beats broad commentary. Okay? Number two, long episodes are not the problem.

A (4:53)

Knew it.

C (4:53)

And I don't know that we ever thought that long episodes were the problem. No, we have no problem talking.

A (4:57)

I think there's plenty of survey data from like the last year that supports that long episodes are actually expected in podcasts and listeners like that.

C (5:06)

Right? So the weird thing about Buzzcast is that we have very long episodes, not very long, but like over an hour typically. And then we have these really short ones and we run them, you know, we stagger them back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And so I was wondering if that pattern did anything to hurt. And it doesn't seem to, so. But, but there is sort of a sweet spot. Our longer episodes that perform better are all between 50 and 70 minutes, and our shorter episodes that perform well are like 10 to 15. Anytime we sort of break those patterns, we go way too short on a long episode or way too long on a long episode. They don't perform as well. There's some pattern there. But we've always said the quality of the content justifies the length. Like it should just be as long as it needs to be. And that seems to be backed up, at least in our download data.

B (5:48)

One thing I'm getting from both of these points so far is the episode needs to be promotable. And some episodes you just can't put in the buzz brought newsletter. You can't really cut it up into shorts. You can't really pitch it to somebody. If you go, hey, we did a whole episode about why PodFest felt different this year, or the currency of connection for creators. It's harder for people to hear it and go, I know what that is. But if you say 25 unique ways to market a podcast and you send that out in the buzzsprout newsletter, it gets thousands and thousands of clicks because everyone who gets that newsletter goes, I would Actually like to know the answer to this.

A (6:26)

Yeah.

C (6:26)

Right.

B (6:27)

So there's just a bit of. We're not even gonna promote our own stuff in the most advantageous way unless we know people are going to click it. And so we have to title things in a way that people will want to click.

C (6:39)

I think the big takeaway here is that, like, I love this line. It said long works when the topic earns it. And so we have to. And we just did this today. You're going to hear about it at the end of the episode when we talk about next week's episode.

A (6:49)

Oh, yeah.

C (6:50)

Spoiler alert is like choosing the right topics. Because if we know we're going to talk for an hour because it's a full buzzcast episode day versus a quick cast day, then the topic has to earn that. And shorter ones need to be punchier. They just need to be like, you know what the Apple video podcast announcement means for you? Yeah, like just a short punchy. We're talking about one thing. It's a quick cast. There we go.

A (7:13)

Yeah. We always talk about how an episode needs to be exactly as long as it needs to be, because there's no sweet spot. It's not going to be like 30 minutes performs better than 45 minutes or 60 minutes. And we discussed a lot of this, actually, in our last episode about content editing, too.

B (7:27)

There's really something to being timely as well. Oh, yeah. This came up in my research, and I got it when I was kind of doing my analysis. The quickcast, what they allow us to do is react to something quickly. And there's a lot of value when Apple brings out the MacBook Neo to be the person who has a video up that day or when the new ChatGPT comes out, there's people who do an analysis within a few hours. And there's just something to being timely. And I think even in podcasting, we've seen this with people who are creating content every day and us creating once a week. It's really valuable, Even if it's 15 minutes, to be able to give something out that's timely.

C (8:08)

Yeah. And then tying that back to the title. The title needs to be sharp. If you're only talking about one thing and it's a short episode, the title needs to be even sharper than what you're trying to do with your longer full episodes.

A (8:19)

Yeah.

B (8:20)

Get clear. We're talking about the specific thing.

C (8:22)

Yes. Okay. So that kind of wrapped up points two and three together, which is long episodes and short episodes, and the difference in how we title those. Point number four, search friendly titles are a major opportunity. Yes. So, like, the best titles that we've had, the best performing episodes that we've had have included terms like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Podcast, SEO, Podcast analytics, and on and on and on, monetization, editing, cover art. The episodes that perform best seem to have a pattern of including keywords like that right in the title.

B (8:49)

I mean, this is the same thing that we do in our blogs, Kevin, that we do pretty much on anything SEO related. You need to title things the same as the terms that people are searching for. And if you're trying to get too cutesy, like when we have done. When we. We had one podcast title that was like 1980s televangelist esthetic.

A (9:10)

Yeah.

B (9:10)

We thought it was funny. But no one's ever typed that in and searched for it and wanted our episodes.

A (9:15)

No.

B (9:16)

So you need to think like, who would want this? What are they typing? And title it that at least. So people, it's very clear to them. This is for me.

C (9:23)

Yeah. Some good examples that I got from this were I don't know what the original episode title was, but like, the suggestion was everything you need to know about transcripts on Apple podcasts. And you could probably even tighten that down to just be transcripts on Apple podcasts. That could be the episode title.

A (9:37)

Yeah.

C (9:38)

Because people do probably search for Apple podcasts, they search for transcripts. And if they search for transcripts on Apple podcasts, here is an episode titled exactly what you're looking for or top podcasting year of 2024. These are some really high performing. These are some outliers. Like they're performing really well and we just happen to name them this.

A (9:55)

Yeah.

C (9:56)

So being more intentional about that would definitely lead to more discoverability of your podcast.

A (10:01)

Now this next tip actually surprised me because it's my understanding that in SEO, if you use numbers in your episode titles, that can actually hurt SEO, because there's so many other podcasts that are competing for that spot with the numbers. But it looks like some of our top performing episode titles had numbers in them. Such as, like the five mistakes that lose podcast listeners, 25 plus creative marketing top five motivations to keep podcasting.

C (10:30)

Right.

A (10:31)

And so that actually feels contradictory from what I've personally learned.

B (10:35)

I think I can untangle this one. All right, so the recommendation that Kevin got was that numbers help our episode titles. And in my brain it instantly went to what, like, so episode 203. You know, the way that every podcast titles things, they put the number in there.

A (10:53)

Yeah.

B (10:53)

That Apple says we don't like. And it also uses that valuable real estate. And so you're kind of wasting it. What we're doing is we're using the numbers in the title because we're telling you there's 25 creative marketing ideas, there's five motivations, there's 10 podcasting tips. And so one, we're actually using fewer characters because we're typing out the number. But we're also. This is just the same as what buzzfeed did for years where they made the listicles. And I think we are. Naturally, we enjoy listicle style content.

C (11:25)

Yeah.

B (11:26)

And I think we can do good episodes that are kind of listicle E where you hear one tip and you go, I got that tip. I already understand it. And you just click over to the next spot. The next chapter makes it nice to consume the episode. And so I think people are more likely to tune in.

C (11:41)

Yeah. And I think when we're talking about podcast SEO, it's not quite to the level of sophistication as web SEO got. So now if you did a click baity title in a, like a blog post, you know, whatever, the five must have like vacations before you die thing, you're not going to believe number three.

A (12:00)

Oh, yeah.

C (12:00)

Not many people are going to click that anymore because we've been fooled by that so many times that that's just an ad and garbage and yada yada yada.

B (12:06)

What is it?

A (12:10)

I have to know.

C (12:11)

And Google is probably down ranking them at this point. Yeah. But the searches that exist in podcast apps are not because that hasn't been abused yet. So it can still be a useful tool. It helps the episodes feel like there's going to be some structure there and they're going to be easy to scan and you're going to be able to have actually like five actionable things. Because you told me in the title and in this context, I believe you. Even though if I searched in Google and saw that same title, I might not.

B (12:34)

Yeah. I think the structure is kind of the listicle point. It's easier to digest five tips when I know there's five tips and you're numbering each one.

C (12:44)

Okay. And this last one is, is more just for us. But I felt like it was worth sharing with anybody who's listening as well, because there's probably ways to apply it to different industries or different podcasts as well. And that is when there are things that we need to talk about that are just specifically Buzzsprout related. Like we launched a new feature. We got new pricing or whatever. Anything that we're announcing that's specific to buzzsprout, and we're doing it mostly for the benefit of buzzsprout, that we should not focus on the benefit to buzzsprout as the lead. We need to focus about the benefit to the listener. So the actual tip here is buzzsprout center titles should lead with the user benefit. And so a less effective example of this was buzzsprout's new home screen widget. And a stronger direction that it suggested was two faster ways to stay on top of your podcast. Or how the new buzzsprout widgets make publishing easier.

A (13:29)

Yeah, it feels less like a product announcement and more like a here's a tool that we think would benefit you.

C (13:36)

Exactly. So leading with the outcome, not a feature name examples could be like, whatever. If you have somebody on your show who's promoting a new book or something, you don't want the title to be. You know, John Smith comes on to talk about his new book, how to Train Dogs Effectively.

B (13:51)

Yeah.

C (13:51)

You want a title that would be, I'm making this up on the fly, like how to Train the Untrainable Dog or something like that with John Smith.

A (13:59)

Yeah.

B (13:59)

We actually have something I wrote for how we name features in buzzsprout, and I was trying to pull that up while we were chatting. But it's so tempting to title things. Here's how we built it, it's tempting to title it. Here's how it works, and here's how we know what's happening in the back end. But our customers do not care, and your listeners do not care. What they care about is, why do I want to know about this? And you have to remember you're talking to an audience who cares about very different things than you. It matters to us which specific text editor we implemented on buzzsprout and why we allow you to bold, but we don't allow you to underline. That stuff's interesting to us. Our customers don't care. They care. Does that show up in Apple Podcasts and how do I format correctly? Yeah, and so just. It's important when you're talking to your listeners, why are they ever going to listen to this and then give them what they're looking for, not what you're looking for.

C (15:00)

And we can get more into this in a full episode of like. Because podcast SEO goes way beyond just episode titles.

A (15:07)

Yes.

C (15:07)

But what we have discovered recently is that Jordan's been doing a lot of experimentation and we're trying to figure out what more we can do to help anybody who uses Buzzsprout optimize their podcast. But I think, Jordan, you're probably happy to give a testimonial that this stuff works. You've been doing it on a podcast that you produce, and you're seeing some real impact.

A (15:24)

Yes. Like, literally within 24 hours, like doubling download numbers kind of impact.

C (15:29)

So now, small podcast. You started with a podcast that didn't really have any traction, but it's gone from like five downloads a day to like 10. Not like 10,000 to 20,000.

A (15:38)

Yeah, exactly. In just like, a week or two weeks. It's now getting up to like, 20 a day, 40 a day, things like that. Just within a couple weeks. So I think it does have a really big impact, and it is something to certainly look at.

B (15:51)

Okay, so if we've got this Reddit post where somebody took their podcast and grew it drastically with a few tips, and they talked about what worked for them, and Jordan, you've done this experiment and you've gotten a podcast to grow, and Kevin and I are both kind of off in AI world, throwing our data in and trying to come up with ideas. Can I throw out a proposal that we actually talk about this on a full episode? I feel like this is right now one of the most interesting things to me. Next week, we were doing an episode on Call to Actions.

A (16:22)

Yeah, Like Call to Actions, which is good. It's very important. But I think that after having this discussion, especially for me personally, I struggle with how to extract data and analyze it. I'm just. Just. It's not in my mindset. But you both jumped on that because you understand it. And so I think that, yeah, maybe we should bump the Call to Action episode into a different slot and cover how to get this kind of information for your podcast.

B (16:52)

So next week, like four days from now.

A (16:54)

Yeah.

B (16:54)

The three of us are going to get together and we're going to record an episode on analyzing your data for podcast growth, what trends you could spot, how you could improve the podcast, and specifically using AI, not as a way to create your podcast, but using AI to identify trends and areas for improvement. Sound good?

A (17:16)

Yeah, sure.

B (17:17)

So now, Call to Action. We need some questions quickly. We need some feedback quickly.

A (17:22)

Urgent.

B (17:22)

So over the weekend, if you listen to this, give us some hot takes, give us something spicy so that we can put it into the episode. We'd appreciate it.

A (17:29)

It doesn't have to be spicy. You can just be helpful.

B (17:32)

Yeah, helpful or spicy? Both are acceptable.

A (17:35)

Be sure to tap the Texas show link in the show notes to send that in. And again, we're putting the pressure on. So until next time, thanks for listening and keep podcasting.