How to Find the Right Podcast Co-Host

Summary

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Buzzcast Episode Summary

Episode: How to Find the Right Podcast Co-Host
Date: June 19, 2026
Hosts: Team Buzzsprout

Overview

In this roundtable episode, the Buzzsprout crew takes a deep dive into one of podcasting’s most common struggles: finding the right podcast co-host. Drawing heavily from their years of experience, listener questions, and real-world examples, they break down the art and science behind podcast partnerships. The discussion covers where to find a co-host, what traits are most important, warning signs, practical strategies for trialing a partnership, and ways to set expectations for a healthy working relationship. With humor, candor, and a splash of personal anecdotes, this episode is an essential listen for anyone looking to launch or sustain a co-hosted show.

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Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Online vs. Real-World Co-Host Searching

[04:07 - 07:19]

• The hosts express skepticism about internet posts seeking random co-hosts, likening it to adopting a child or co-parenting with strangers.
• C: “I'm potentially taking over a show that already has an existing catalog and fan base. Does anybody want to be a co-host? That's like, I mean, it's like saying, I'm adopting some kids. Anybody interested in being their mom with me and co-parenting?” [04:07]
• The consensus is that knowing your co-host in real life is the ideal starting point for chemistry and reliability.

2. Co-Hosting is Not (Just) About Shared Interests

[05:03 - 05:59]

• The burden of podcasting’s workload, passion, energy, and vibe is shared. Finding someone “just to do a podcast” won’t cut it.
• Comparison to dating: Building podcast chemistry is similar to building a relationship; a surface connection rarely works for the long haul.

3. Real-Life Relationships Trump Internet Matching

[07:19 - 11:14]

• Examples abound: Most successful co-host duos started as friends or coworkers.
• A (Jordan) shares listener advice: “You’ll know you have a good co-host when you feel comfortable talking about anything, their energy matches yours, and you enjoy your time together.” [08:38]
• Discussion on whether co-hosts’ energy needs to “match” or "complement" each other; complimentary energies often make for better dynamics.

4. The Importance of Distinct Voices & Roles

[11:14 - 13:22]

• Hosts reflect on the confusion of similar-sounding voices (e.g. Reply All) and the listener benefit of differentiable co-hosts.
• Different roles/backgrounds within a co-host duo provide listener entry points and richer conversations.

5. Work Ethic & Reliability: The Non-Negotiables

[15:37 - 16:32]

• Working with someone in a professional or volunteer situation is a reliable predictor of their podcasting work ethic.
• C: “Number four on my list, Kevin, was reliable. I underlined it... If it's not there, it's going to be so difficult and you're going to add so much overhead to planning.” [16:32]
• First sign of co-host issues: ghosting, flaking, or lack of commitment.

6. The 'Guest-to-Co-Host Pipeline' Strategy

[18:18 - 21:50]

• Both Buzzcast and other popular podcasts successfully used guest slots as informal co-host auditions.
• Allows real chemistry to surface and avoids awkward breakups if the dynamic doesn’t work.

7. It’s OK to Be Selective

[23:22 - 26:26]

• Rushed decisions lead to mismatched partnerships and “all the work gets dumped on me” scenarios.
• Take your time, trial, and err on the side of holding out for the right person.

8. Seven Traits of a Great Co-Host

[26:45 - 39:06]
(C delivers a detailed list with explanations and quick-witted interruptions)

1. Warmth – Easygoing, friendly, pleasant
2. Productive Tension – Not adversarial, but willing to disagree interestingly
3. Different Audience Relationships – E.g., expert and newcomer combo is engaging
   • A: “It is perfection...the winner of the previous season covers the next season together, so you get the producer, the superfan, and the player with inside knowledge.” [28:28]
4. Reliability – Shows up, contributes, follows through
5. Source of New Material – Brings fresh perspectives and content over time
6. High Signal: Most of what’s shared adds value; avoid filler
7. Okay with Being Edited: Can handle cuts and trust the editor

• Being edited makes the show better, even if it means losing some “favorite jokes.”
• C: “The edit is a gift, and you've just got to accept that someone has to make the call and it's going to make a podcast better.” [37:49]

9. Navigating Disagreements and Growth

[39:06 - 43:35]

• Early partnership “growing pains” are normal: lots of editing, notes, feedback, and learning each other's styles.
• With time, trust develops, and the process becomes smoother.
• B: “Your trust battery grows. And so as Jordan said...now it's just so smooth and wonderful. So anyway, I hope all of our fans...find somebody like that for your show. But that trust level, that trust battery thing, that just takes time.” [42:03]

10. The Power of Working on Yourself First

[45:37 - 45:56]

• B: “Maybe one of the ways to help you find a great co-host is to work on yourself. Like being the best co-host that you could be.” [45:52]
• Self-critique and personal development will make you more attractive as a potential co-host.

11. Selecting, Vetting, and ‘Defining the Relationship’

[46:28 - 53:57]

• Listener story: Posting in a fandom group, doing Zoom interviews, and private “checklists” of must-haves to avoid people who just say what you want to hear.
  • A: “What Twilight Zone Media did is more like Practical Magic. ...He comes to her and he just, like, matches all those things.” [48:20]
• Take time to trial partnerships before committing, and don’t put all criteria up front to see who truly aligns with your vision.
• When ready to “seal the deal”—have a conversation that sets expectations (“define the relationship” or “DTR” talk).
  • Shared notes work: simple agreements about roles, schedule, and what happens if someone leaves. Not a contract—just clarity.
  • C: “There's a big gap between we just wing it and we're forming an LLC and we're writing up a partnership agreement...Just like, the main points.” [52:04]

12. Handling Accountability & Conflict

[53:57 - 58:38]

• Don’t wait for things to get bad—set expectations early and check in.
• Simple, honest conversations resolve most common co-hosting issues.
• B: “If you're usually having to address somebody...you're not the one making it awkward. They're the ones that made it awkward by not holding up their end of the agreement.” [57:06]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On chemistry:
  A: “Everything that we're talking about feels so much like online dating...But it is so much better to communicate and connect with people you know in real life first.” [07:19]

• On picking co-hosts from existing relationships:
  C: “Most of the podcasts were former coworkers...That’s probably a good indicator you could do a podcast together.” [14:57]

• On reliability:
  C: “Reliability is just like, if it's not there, it's going to be so difficult and you're going to add so much overhead to planning…” [16:32]

• On productive tension:
  C: “There's just much more interesting with a little bit of conflict. So, disagreeable, but fun.” [27:20]

• On being edited:
  C: “The edit is a gift, and you've just got to accept that someone has to make the call and it's going to make a podcast better.” [37:49]

• On setting expectations:
  C: “...setting these expectations. Because if you do not express what expectations are in the beginning, that is going to create a lot of discord later on.” [55:20]

• On self-improvement:
  B: “Maybe one of the ways to help you find a great co-host is to work on yourself, like being the best co-host that you could be.” [45:52]

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Fan Mail & Listener Questions

[59:46 - end]

• Video quality praise and brief technical discussion.
• Addressing negative reviews: Recommended the “buddy system” for handling critical feedback—have someone else read comments first and only send the nice ones.
  • A: “I do my best work in that delusional world. My husband will check my ratings and reviews. I will never, ever, ever look at comments…” [64:26]
• Advice for appealing for review removal if personal attacks arise, especially for younger podcasters.
• Listeners are encouraged to write in for advice and feedback.

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Memorable Tangents & Humor

• Wedding officiating stories and bad wedding jokes [67:09+]
• The running analogy to online dating and relationships
• Practical Magic and Love on the Spectrum references for picking co-hosts [48:20, 50:04]
• Multiple callbacks to sitcoms and other famous podcast duos

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Takeaways

For Podcasters Searching for Co-Hosts:

• Start with people you know and trust: Longstanding friends, coworkers, family, or acquaintances who already have a rapport are the best bets.
• Look for complimenting—not necessarily matching—energy and perspectives.
• Trial runs are invaluable: Bring potential co-hosts on as guests before locking in the relationship.
• Reliability and work ethic are critical.
• Be clear about roles, expectations, and how work will be shared. Even a one-page shared note is enough.
• Don’t shy away from honest conversations and feedback—approach them early and directly.
• Be patient and selective. It’s better to delay than settle.
• Work on your own skills as a co-host—growth attracts quality partners.

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Final Words

If you want a smooth, successful podcast relationship, focus less on finding “anybody” and more on selecting the right somebody—ideally, someone whose personality, reliability, and rapport complement yours and who is ready to commit to the journey for the long haul. Set clear expectations, keep communication open, and remember: podcasting should be fun!

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For more insights and to join the conversation, check out the Buzzcast show notes and send your questions or stories!

Transcript

[A]

All right guys, Father's Day weekend is coming up. Do you guys have any plans for this weekend?

[B]

My expectations are low for this Father's Day.

[C]

Why they are low?

[B]

Well, a couple of reasons. One, I've got a daughter and two sons and the daughter is the oldest and so she's always taken the lead on Father's Day. Happens usually during summer break. She's been in college the last couple years, but she's back doing some classes and internships this year. So she, she's out of town. So. So it's kind of up to the boys. The boys are at camp. They're at a like a summer week long camp. They don't get back till Sunday. So I, I'm just imagining there's no way that two high school boys planned ahead and thought, oh, we're going to be out of town for the week before Father's Day, we should do something early and get it right. There's no way.

[A]

I mean you might get like a Father's Day miracle.

[C]

You're getting something out of like the camp store. Best case,

[B]

if, if by chance like one of the leaders at the camp reminded all the kids like you're going back and it's Father's Day, go gr. Something from the camp store maybe. But outside of the like one of their leaders giving them a heads up, there's, there's no way you're getting like

[C]

a finger painted happy Father's day from your 16 year old son. Right?

[B]

From my two high school boys, I'm going to get I don't know like a macaroni necklace or something back from.

[C]

Honestly, that would be awesome. That would be really funny if I did that.

[A]

What about you, Alvin?

[C]

I'm actually the one who's out of town. My daughter with, will be with my mother in law this weekend. One of my good friends from law school is getting married and so we'll be up in North Georgia for the wedding and then we will drive back early Sunday. So I'm sure we'll do something Sunday night. But we'll probably all be kind of wiped out. So I'm also hoping for the macaroni necklace.

[A]

Wow. Bar set really high. No, this actually makes me feel a lot better because I actually forgot about Father's Day. Like it snuck up on me.

[C]

You still got like plenty of time.

[A]

Oh yeah, I know. But here's the problem is that I'm going to be working in the Jacksonville office like Monday. Monday I'm gonna be there. I'm actually coming a day early. Because I have, like, some recordings and I forgot that was Father's Day weekend. And flights are really crazy right now, and so I have to leave like a day ahead. And so I'm. I booked my flight for Sunday and booked my hotel and everything. Like, it's all set. And then I was like, oh, it's Father's Day. And so my husband has to drive me to the airport.

[B]

I'm leaving.

[A]

Yeah, bye. Leaving you with the kids. I feel so bad.

[C]

What time do you fly down?

[A]

I fly out at like 1:30, so I could probably leave at like 11. 11:30?

[C]

Yeah. So you got like, maybe a break, a little brunch opportunity?

[A]

Yeah, we've got like a breakfast thing maybe.

[C]

Or you find one near the airport and then tell him to drive you to the airport. And then on the way you go, let's stop here. Special brunch.

[A]

There's. There's nothing on the way to the airport. I don't know if you've been out west. Like, our airports are out in the middle of nowhere.

[B]

Maybe. Why don't you do the, you know, remember the dumb and dumber scene where they spent all the money, but they have the whole box of IOUs. Why don't you just give them an IOU?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A really nice Father's Day when you come back.

[A]

That's another classic gift is the, like, coupon book, right?

[C]

With like, just that never gets, like, I will clean up my room. And you're like, you were supposed to do this already.

[A]

This is not a gift. Here we go. Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all things podcasting from the people at BuzzFrout. So today we're going to be talking about where to find a good co host. I've been seeing posts on all over the Internet for, like, I don't know, the last couple of years about people just posting, hey, I'm looking for a co host. Like, where do you find a good co host? And do you guys, like, have any recommendations on, like, how I can find a co host? And it's so interesting that these people are like, posting on the Internet to find a co host, because I don't know, that's really not the first place I would look.

[C]

No, I think that, that, I mean, the beginning of our outline are just screenshots of people saying, anybody want to be the co host? And some of them, they don't have enough info to even know. Like, I've got no way to start even thinking about it. One was, I'm potentially taking over a show that already has an existing catalog and fan base. Oh, okay. Good opening line. Does anybody want to be a co host? That's like, I mean, it's like saying, I'm adopting some kids. Anybody interested in being their mom with me and co parenting? Like, we're jumping way into the deep end real fast.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Well, I mean, it tells you something about who you'd be hosting with. Like, they're concise. They don't get bogged down in unnecessary details or even necessary details. They just skip all the details.

[C]

You're not going to know. Analysis by. Or paralysis by analysis with this one, right?

[A]

No, absolutely not.

[C]

So there's a lot. I mean, you found quite a bit of these. I. I think this is a really good topic to talk through, but I'm more convinced after I read the asks that people are posting. It's almost like they think all you need are two people who are both interested in doing a podcast and then you've got a good co host dynamic. And I think that there's so much more that goes into finding the right person for the podcast. Like, it's a combination of the podcast and the people. So good, good picture. And I like this episode.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, what kind of traits should people be looking for in a good co host? Because like you said, it's not just like two people that want to start a podcast. It's not like I'm looking for a buddy to go bowling with me on Thursday nights. It's not that simple. It's like some finding someone who is going to share a workload with you, who's going to share passion with you and share energy and vibes with you.

[B]

I agree. Obviously, when you're putting the outline together and you're looking for examples of people who are looking for co hosts, like, you're doing your research online. So of course all the examples that you pull are going to be, you know, people who are online looking for podcast host guests. But I think we'd all probably align that our first, best recommendation would be that you would find somebody in your life already who, you know, like, in real life. Like, it's not that finding co host for your podcast online, it's not that it can't work, but I think we would all say that probably shouldn't be your first, like, avenue that you explore. I think ideally it would be somebody that you already know that you have an ongoing relationship with, or at least that you have the ability to spend time with in real life so that you can build that connection and Build that vibe. And so that when you get in the recording studio, when you get a mic in front of you, when you get the headphones on, if you're doing a video show, you have the cameras on, all that added pressure doesn't, like, get weird because you already have a very comfortable connection with the person. So I think we would all say if you can find somebody that you already know and have a relationship with and maybe a long history, even better, that would be the ideal place to start. And then maybe we can talk about. Okay, well, if you don't have that person and you want to look online, we can give some tips about like, like how to structure that to give people the right context or information, or how do you vet somebody who you haven't really met yet in real life and how you can find them online later.

[A]

Everything that you're saying is aligning with like dating. And I'm, I'm so thankful, I'm so lucky that I missed the bus on the whole like app dating scene. I didn't have to do any of that. Like, I met my husband at church. It was very simple. Everything that we're talking about feels so much like online dating. And I think that this is something that people encounter in, especially in a, like a post Covid world. Like all these communities are built up online. People have gotten more, I don't know, to be more like homebodies. Like, people aren't going out as much, they aren't involved in communities as much or going to events as much. And so it feels like it's a lot harder to like connect with people because you're not in person, you're not building these relationships over like years and stuff like that. But it is so much better to communicate and connect with people who you know in real life first.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I started going through this list of podcasts I've listened to and I was like, okay, how these co hosts meet. How these co hosts meet. And a lot of them were coworkers or long term friends that they knew each other pretty well. And so they had a inkling like, this is going to work out well. And I think like a lot of this will continue to come back to if you know somebody, you get so many, so much better of a feeling whether or not this will work out.

[A]

We actually got a family message from Ryan from the co Op Campfire podcast and he said that my co host James and I have been best friends for almost 20 years and we've had many lengthy conversations about all sorts of topics in the genre, and their genre is, like, cozy gaming, which is right up my alley. I'm probably going to subscribe to that. So last October, I approached him about making our conversations into a podcast. So my advice is, you'll know you have a good co host when you feel comfortable talking about anything. Their level of energy for the podcast matches yours, and as a golden rule, you enjoy your time together. Yeah, that's super important. And he said James has repeatedly stated that his favorite night of the week is hopping online and talking games. That's so awesome.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

I would modify just one thing. That whole statement. I think it's an excellent statement. But when. When he says their level of energy for the podcast matches yours, I might just change the word matches for compliments. Because, like, in my experience, my. My energy level does not match Jordan and Alvin at all. Jordan and Alan bring way more energy most days, and. But I feed off of that, and so it brings my energy level up, and I need that. Like, if I had, like, if the host for the show or a show that I was doing had somebody who matched my energy, no one would ever listen or watch the show. Like, it would be so boring and dry.

[C]

The word that I kept thinking of was compliment. I wrote down some ideas that I had for what we should be looking for in a co host.

[B]

Alvin's just going right over this. I think I said switch the word matches for compliments, and now you're trying to steal my epiphany.

[C]

That. That's. I'm. I'm complimenting what you said.

[B]

Find a co host that listens to what you say. Oh. And then builds upon it. And still instead of trying to steal your. Your. Your take. Anyway, Alvin, good point. I agree with you completely. Please continue.

[C]

Oh, man, I was so excited about my notes that I taken. All right. The reason I thought of compliment and other people also have thought of the word compliment because it's the right word, is because you don't necessarily. You don't want people who are acting the same on the podcast. There are podcasts that the voices sound too similar or the energy level is the same, and they all kind of just mush into, like. You can tell it's different people talking to each other, but it could almost be like one guy just switching microphones, you know? Is.

[B]

Is that something that people should think about? That's so interesting that you say that. I remember reply all, which is, they don't record anymore, but I used to love that show. But I would get so confused about whose voice was whose on the show that I knew who the, like, who the characters were of the show. It wasn't a video show. It was only audio. But I could never, like, remember, like, who's talking right now.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And I found it kind of annoying a little bit that I didn't know that, oh, this is. And I don't even remember the names of the people on the show.

[C]

DJ and Alex.

[B]

Yeah, I know characteristics about each of them, but they would completely overlap because their voices were too similar.

[A]

Their personalities were too.

[C]

When I listened to ATP, that's how I felt like it was too, that it took me a long time to get to where I could distinguish three different, relatively similar guy voices from each other and figure out their personalities were very different. But it took a while for me to get that distinction and I. We got that feedback on buzzcast. Travis and I were too similar. And so now Jordan has more of a distinction in our voices. So it's a little bit easier to differentiate.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't, I don't know that you would ever. You'd find the perfect co host, but then have to have a tough conversation with them about, you know, our voices are just too similar. One of us are going to have to do something. I don't know.

[C]

Voice modifier, Use the robot voice on your rodecaster.

[B]

You don't have to take it that far. But I will say that at least as a listener, the listener experience. If I find it easier to connect and get to know the hosts when I'm listening to audio podcasts, when they're voices, I can clearly distinguish who is who. Anyway, probably. Probably a bad thing I'm putting in people's heads when they're thinking about a co host. Like, you don't need to worry about how different your voices are, at least initially.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of, like, podcasts that will bring in their family members. So like my brother, my brother and me. And like beach to sandy, water too wet. So that's like a brother and a sister. So they don't really have to worry about things like that. But there's a lot of podcasts where they bring in, like family members. So I know best friends, like, you can be like Ryan, you can be best friends with James for like 20 years. But I mean, if you don't have a best friend for 20 years and you're looking for someone that's going to be there long term for you and you know you can count on them, you know you can trust Them, you know, everything about them and, you know, you get along like a sibling can actually be a really good option.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a podcast partner.

[B]

Do you guys notice when people start hanging out with new people and they start to pick up the little sayings that they do, their inflections, they start talking like, my daughter now goes, she's in college, so she gets different roommates every year. And every year I can kind of see how her, like, vocal patterns change, but she's, like, picking up habits or speech patterns, like, from her new roommates. I'm like, oh, you sound a lot like this girl now. Or you sound a lot like this girl now. Anyway, it could happen and I think it would be, like, to the benefit probably of a show that you're listening to is that you're, you know, you're talking the same language with these people. So again, like, that will happen naturally if it's somebody that you have a relationship with. But if you just found somebody new on the Internet and you connected with, I still think it can work. It just is probably going to take you a few more episodes until you start. Like, I don't know, like, that sounded straight or dry, but it was meant as a joke. And so, like, now we're laughing and we play off of it or something like that. Like, that stuff just takes time to develop well.

[A]

And I also think that what you're talking about goes along with disagreements. Like, is this someone who you can disagree with? And you guys are able to kind of navigate disagreements in, like, a healthy manner and negotiate or compromise on certain things. Coworkers are a great option for this because you already know how they are in, like, high stress environments.

[C]

Yeah. So when I did my search, a lot of the podcasts were former coworkers. Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck met each other at how stuff works. Reply all. Like, we just mentioned Pod Save America. They were all writers for Obama. Smart lists. Bunch of friends who'd worked together on TV shows and movies. Conan o' Brien needs a friend. Obviously, Matt Sana and Conan all work together. So there's just so many examples of you work with somebody and you can tell, like, we get along in a professional environment. We enjoy each other's company. We've become friends over time. That's probably a good indicator that you could do a podcast together.

[B]

Well, yeah. And side bonus to that is that you know their work ethic. Right. Like, if you worked alongside of them, you knew that. Are, are they always late for work or they show up on time? Are they calling in sick every other day, or are they, you know, showing up consistently, that type of stuff? Like, we haven't gotten into all the details of that yet, but I'm sure it's going to flush out again. I should probably read these outlines, so I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

[C]

Yeah, something about work ethic.

[B]

Those are traits that you want to find. Podcasting is fun, but it's also a lot of work. And so if only one of two people or three people or four people are carrying the majority of the work, that can start to wear on the relationship over time. So I like the idea of if this is a person that you've worked with before, whether it be in a professional context or volunteer work or whatever, or you've just done a lot of life with them and done whatever you plan to party together with them. Something, you know, like their ability to contribute, their ability to show up and be consistent and be dependable.

[C]

Number four on my list, Kevin was reliable. And I actually, I unlearned, underlined it because it doesn't feel like it should be this number one thing I'm looking for reliable when I'm trying to find a co host. But there's no way you're going to be able to stick with a podcast if your co host doesn't show up when you plan it. And I've seen lots of things in our Facebook group. Someone's like, I don't know what to do. I started a podcast with my friend and now it's like I'm editing, I prep it and then I show up to the Zoom Room and nobody else is there. And then I text them and they say, sorry, can't do it tonight, let's do it tomorrow. But now I've got plans tomorrow. Now I don't know when we're going to get this episode out. Reliability is just like, if it's not there, it's going to be so difficult and you're going to add so much overhead to planning and just trying to work out when you've got time. It's okay if people don't have time to do the podcast forever, but if you don't have, like, a sense that they will show up when we put it on the calendar, then I don't know how you would be able to push through that.

[A]

You know where that shows up immediately is when you have guests on your, like, already established podcast. Like, there. I. I know we've all experienced it where you go to, like, guest on someone's podcast or you have Someone on as a guest on the podcast, and they're like a no show or they flake out or something like that. And that is a really fast way to be like, okay, like, maybe this person's a little too busy, or maybe they just are forgetful or they don't care enough. And there's a lot of podcasts where they will have guests that become co hosts on the show. Can you guys think of any good examples of that?

[B]

Let me think.

[C]

Yes. Obviously, Jordan was a guest on this podcast. I think we should actually talk a whole segment about that. Yeah. A great place to. You could find your co host is by having people on as guests so that you can kind of do a bit of a trial period where you figure out, would this work as a podcast? It's one thing to imagine it's going to work out well. You kind of know their personality. You think this person compliments us. Well. But then actually recording will be a little bit of the proof right there. And I mean, kind of. Kevin, like, we did do this somewhat intentionally.

[B]

Yeah. When. So. So that is our story. I'll give you the nutshell version because I think we've told it a few times on this. This podcast before, but the nutshell version is Travis was transitioning out of. Of buzzsprout. And so, and he was a big part of the show. He not only was one of the co hosts with us, but he also was like the producer of the show, and he would edit the show and all this kind of stuff. So it was kind of a big role. And Albin and I just. We just didn't know anybody yet. Like, who, How. How are we going to find someone to fill this role that Travis had been doing such an excellent job of filling? And so we decided, hey, for the next couple of weeks, we. Here's what we know. We know consistency is important, and we know a lot of great people in the podcasting space, and there's a lot of people who listen to buzzcast, who are fans, who we've, you know, gotten to know just with, you know, emails, and we've met at conferences and started interacting and in our Facebook group and stuff like that. So, like, let's invite some of these people on the show just to be a co host for the week, you know, kind of like a guest, and we'll. We'll see how that goes. Well, after doing it, I think. Jordan, were you the first one or second one that we had on?

[A]

I. I feel like the second, but I'm not sure.

[B]

Yeah, I Think you were very early. And so we did, you know, a couple episodes, and I think we pretty quickly got to the point where, where Alvin and I were like, we don't want to continue finding new guests every episode. We want to get back to that dynamic where we have three people who get along and know each other, have this vibe. And, and, and that's more the show that we want to do, not a guest show. And that episode that we did with Jordan was so great. Like, what if maybe we can run a couple more guests to make sure? But, like, are you feeling what I'm feeling? And Alvin was like, yeah, totally. If Jordan wants to do this, I need to contact her and figure out if she is even open to the idea. Anyway, that all went splendidly. Like, that was a fantastic phone call. And Jordan was all into it and it worked out, but I don't think we had the foresight to say, like, we should run guests on the show as sort of like an audition process to become the new guest. But it turned into that. And so now I would actually propose that as like a, a strategy that people could use. If you have an ongoing podcast and you want to add someone to the mix, or if you need to replace somebody, that is a. I, I. It worked for us. Accidentally, we fell into it. But now that I know that it works, I would recommend it as like, like an intentional strategy.

[C]

Yeah, you actually will avoid some awkwardness that you're not going to have to ask somebody like, hey, would you want to be a co host? And then you record three episodes and you go, yeah, it doesn't really work. I mean, you could almost just start a show as, here's my interview show, and I bring people on, like Jon Gruber's the talk show, where he has kind of recurring guests and he goes through the list and eventually if you're like, I actually just like talking to Jordan every time she comes on, it's great. And now she's on more often and the audience loves her. And then you go, hey, you just want to be a permanent co host. Then you've kind of solved that problem without ever having to have any awkward conversations saying, like, oh, it was nice to have done those three episodes with you. I will not be continuing our podcast co host relationship.

[A]

That's something I see all the time, like, in Reddit forums and stuff like that. And I think it's really common. And perhaps it's common because people aren't very selective when it comes to picking a co host, or they're not Very careful. Or they'll, like, jump into something with somebody. I see posts all the time where people are like, oh, my co host can't do this, or they flaked out on me, or, you know, they're not sharing the workload. And so I'm looking for a new co host. And yeah, if you already have a podcast established, it's so easy to. To, like, go on, like, pod match or something and find people that are interested in, like, similar topics and see if you, like, vibe, and then you can maybe like, invite them again and again, and then pretty soon they just become like, a co host. This happened with the Minimalists. So they had. I discovered them when they had that, like, documentary on Netflix about minimalism.

[C]

Yeah, I saw that as well.

[A]

Josh and Ryan, they started a podcast after they did a couple of documentaries, and it was just all about minimalism. And it was just the two of them, like, every single episode for, like, a long time. And then they started having guests on who specialized in just, like, certain things. And then they had this, like, One guest named T.K. coleman. He's so cool, and he's just. Everything he says is just, like, nuggets of knowledge, just back to back to back. Like, he's awesome. And he became, like, a fan favorite. And so they brought him on and a whole bunch, and then pretty soon it was just like he joined the squad, and now he's just, like, a part of the podcast, like, he's a permanent fixture.

[B]

Yeah, you know. You know, you. You mentioned something at the beginning of that little segment that you did that I think we might have glossed over a little bit at the beginning of this episode. And so I don't want to, like, totally go back and reframe everything, but you said something like, every now and then, people will just make a quick decision or. Or somebody will say yes to the idea and they'll. They'll jump in with them. And I think that is something that we should be cautious of whether you're. You're starting a brand new show or. Or looking to replace somebody or add somebody down the road. Either way, like, it's okay to be selective. It's okay to take your time. It's not the right analogy. I know. Jordan, you were mentioned, like, online dating or whatever. It's not the right analogy to say, like, this is a marriage. Like, it's not. It's not that big. It's not. This isn't a business partner. Like, that's probably a little bit too big to. Podcasts aren't that level, but there is some level, and it should be taken, you know, pretty seriously. So you are starting a relationship. You are hopefully starting to build a fan base, a fan base that will connect with you. And whoever you ultimately decide is going to also be a regular, you know, personality on this show that you're doing. And so if it doesn't work out, that will be disruptive. It'll be disruptive to you, it'll be disruptive to your workflow, it'll be disruptive to your audience. It will be a step back. It'll be something. And so I think it's okay to be selective. We definitely would rather err, I think, on the side of, hey, let's experiment for a while. Let's run a few episodes together. And then I might get somebody else to run a few episodes together. I might get somebody else to run a few episodes together, I might do a few solo episodes or whatever. While you're trying to find your footing until you decide this is the right person, you have that conversation with them. They feel the same way. Now you're connected. Now you make a commitment. Now you figure out, like, how are we going to distribute the workload? What is our recording schedule going to look like? How are we going to prioritize this in our lives? And we're all on the same page with all that stuff because in order to build something of value, it is going to take commitment, it is going to take work, it is going to take a vibe of personalities. It's going to take all this stuff. And so if you're not aligned on that stuff, it's just going to be harder. It's going to be. Take you longer to achieve the goals that you want to achieve. So I don't know, it's a long way of saying, like, it's okay to be selective. It's okay to just like, if you were dating somebody and then you were going to take the next step in that relationship, like, I don't know, whatever it is, we're, we're going to be exclusive or we're going to get engaged or we're. And again, marriage is too far of analogy. I just don't have another one top of mind.

[C]

But you wouldn't find somebody on a dating app and go exclusive instantly. Like, you just chatted them the first time and said, okay, we're exclusive together. And that's almost the leap that seems. Like, what's happening over on Reddit where people post, hey, looking for a co host, anybody in. Someone goes, I'm in. And they're like, great. We are doing a podcast. But then four episodes in, they come over to the Facebook group and go, guys, I don't know what's going on. Like, I do all the work. They barely show up, and the audience isn't really resonating with them. What do you think the problem is? Well, yeah, you jumped into the podcast with this person. You don't even know who they are.

[B]

When stuff like that happens, I don't think it's an indictment on either side. Like, the reality is that both of those individuals could be excellent podcasters just, like, paired with another person. But you're trying to find your person, you know, like, what does Phoebe say on Friends? Like, she's trying to find her lobster. Like, the lobsters find their. Their soul mate, whatever, and they. They. They mate for life. Like, you're finding your lobster, your podcast

[C]

lobster, your podcast lobster. All right, well, I wrote a list of seven things that I want in a co host. Can I read you this list?

[B]

Oh, gosh, Jordan, I hope we check some of these boxes.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, here we go.

[C]

If I was giving advice, which I guess this show is, these are the things that if I was starting another podcast that I would be looking for. Number one, somebody who's warm, so they're friendly, they're easy to get along with

[B]

right off, right out of the gate, coming at me. Warm it up, Kev.

[C]

I didn't say agreeable. I said warm. I think you could. You check that box. All right, number two is some type of productive tension that there's podcasts where everybody kind of agrees and you're like, oh, what did you think about the new blah, blah, blah book? Oh, it was so good. Oh, what do you think about that new movie? So good. Oh, what do you think? Oh, so good. We all agree it's all good. Everything's good and there's nothing at stake. And the audience wants a little bit of conflict. They want to see different opinions and people work through it. So there's just much more interesting with a little bit of tension.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So disagreeable, but fun. Next, different relationship with the audience. So some podcasts will have two experts. Others will have, like, an expert and maybe someone who's brand new to the genre. One is you just want people who have a little bit. Not the perspective, just different, but one kind of is a stand in for the audience and so the audience can identify with people kind of differently. Does that make sense?

[A]

Okay, I have a perfect example of this, and it is on fire with Jeff Probst. So this is a Survivor companion podcast, and I think it is the best example of what a companion, like a television companion podcast should be. And the reason for this is, is because Jeff is the producer and the host of Survivor. And then on the podcast, his producer is a Survivor super fan and he loves the show. And then they have a third co host every season, and the third co host, like, changes, but it's always the winner of the previous season. And so they cover the next season together. So it's like a watch podcast. And so you're viewing the episodes through the lens of the producer, the host, the fan who is kind of a reflection of you, and then also the player who already has, like, this insider knowledge of, like, strategies that aren't shown on the television. And I think it is so good. And every companion podcast or, like, television cover podcast should do this formula. It is perfection, right?

[C]

Because the one, the version that we get from everyone else is we got three super fans together and they all ask the same question. Well, why did they do that when I was watching the Bachelor? And why they. Why did he eliminate her? That I didn't like that. None of us liked that. But if you now have all three of them, the superfan is going to say, I, I can't believe that you guys kicked so and so off the island. Oh, behind the scenes, you didn't know, but he was gossiping about people and we didn't like it. And then the producer goes, yeah, we didn't want to show it because it really cast this person in a bad light and it felt inappropriate and, like, instantly the question can get answered. Why did this thing happen? The question get answered, it gets richer. And there's three very valid perspectives that are all going to necessarily inform each other. I think Jordan, very good example.

[B]

Jordan. I really didn't like that example. Just, just coming at you with another perspective. I didn't understand it. I don't know why he did that.

[C]

Oh, man. Number four on my list of is reliable. We already touched on this. But you need people who show up and.

[B]

And not just show up, but do the work. Right? Like, like what. What good is it for somebody who shows up every week on time but, like, never reads the outline and has no idea what you're talking about? That's not helpful if. Right.

[A]

Unless they have hot takes.

[C]

If the deal is I show up and I don't read the outline, but I'm doing all sorts of other stuff behind the scenes and everyone's cool with it, that works Just make sure it's

[B]

written into your contract so when you get called out on it, you're like,

[C]

yeah, well, you don't need an actual contract, but it is good to have written down, like, four bullet points. Like, here's what we're all contributing so that people know, like, okay, I am pulling the weight that the team has asked me to pull, and I'm doing my part. I mean, part of what you're contributing to the show, Kevin, is paying us money to work. If we didn't make money for a buzzsprout, we'd be like, hey, does it feel like we're getting our. Some of our part from this podcast?

[B]

Yeah, it just sounds like. When you say, like, it just sounds like part of our relationship and, like, why we're friendly and laugh at you is because you pay us to laugh at you. You're just a clown with money. You're not a very good clown.

[C]

Oh, man. My favorite thing as a kid was, you remember Bozo the Clown? That it was, like, on Saturday mornings, and they would, like, put money in the, like, buckets, and the kids could throw a ping pong ball into it. They'd get the hundred dollars. Remember, as a kid being like, that would be the most amazing show to be on. And now I'm on that show. If I show up and do a podcast, I get a hundred dollars.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Just keep laughing at Bozo's joke

[C]

number. Number five, recurring source of material. So there are people who are interesting, and you interview them one time, and you're just like, oh, my gosh, they have so much to say. But have you seen these podcasts that they start off so strong, but then eventually they're kind of just doing the same show over and over? And, yeah, the good example for me was either you know who Chris Voss is. He was a FBI negotiator, and he wrote a book called Never Split the Difference.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

[C]

And the book was awesome. And it was really it. There was lots of great stories and lots of good tactics and lots of things that were applicable. Book did really well. And then he did a masterclass and he did a podcast and he did some videos and he did a series, and he. And at some point, it was like, every list of, like, people you should learn about was, like, the negotiator, Chris Voss. I was like, it's kind of the same thing again and again. None of it was bad. It was just like, there were 12 solid stories, and at some point you got 12 stories. So if he could tell us, like, hey, I just got out of another negotiation and it was a hostage here, let me tell you. There'd be new material each time. So you want someone who, like, naturally, whatever the topic is, is coming up with new material over the course of the podcast. So for the two of you, it's. We work in podcasting, and Kevin's like, oh, I just was working on this feature, buzzbrow over the week. Here's what I'm doing. What do you guys think? And George going, I was trying to do this edit, and I was running into these issues with a frame rate on our video. So that will be a topic we'll probably pick up when we talk about video. At some point. We're all running into stuff. So there are things to talk about versus showing up and going. Either you have any other cool stories from back when you used to do that thing? No. Okay, let's. Let's pick up one of the old ones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that kind of goes hand in hand with us having such different, like, personalities and backgrounds and interests and stuff like that. It adds a lot more interest and texture to the show than it would be if we, like, I don't know if we all were just on the same. I almost hate saying this because I feel like I'm going to get hate mail for this. I'm not targeting somebody, but it might feel like I am. But like, if you were cast mates on a TV show and you have a rewatch podcast talking about it, like you both had, like, the same experience on that television show. You know what I mean? Wait, wait, are you.

[C]

Are you hating on Office Ladies?

[A]

I'm not hating on it. I actually have never listened to it. I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's wonderful. I was just. I was just thinking, like, they're very similar people in my mind, and I'm probably just projecting my views of them, but they seem like very similar people with very similar experiences on the exact same show.

[C]

I mean, we all work for the same company, so we're the Office Ladies of podcasting.

[A]

Yes. That's gonna be our tagline Buzzcast. The Office Ladies of podcasting.

[B]

I think you raised an interesting point, Jordan, and that we're giving our opinion on the types of shows and the. And, like, the healthy tensions and stuff that we find interesting. But that's not. It's not prescriptive. It's not for everyone. And you could. Anybody could probably find examples of shows that work that are fly in the face of all the advice that we're giving. And so, like, we're just trying our best to give you ideas to help. Something like one or two ideas might resonate with you and help get you in the right direction if you're looking for a co host or to add somebody to your show. But it doesn't mean that you might say, oh, my gosh, my. This person who I really think is a great co host. I've never met them in real life. They have the exact same voices I do. They sound identical. And we agree on everything. That doesn't mean that that can't be a great show, Right? It totally could. We're just trying to give you ideas and paint, like, an ideal based on the experience that we have in podcasting. Office ladies. Like, the idea of that doesn't really resonate with you, but it resonates with lots and lots of people. Very popular show, very successful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that's a fair point. I'm glad you made it.

[C]

And last two are related. One is you want the podcast to be relatively high signal. So high signal, meaning most of what's being said is valuable. There's not a bunch of noise and a bunch of just stuff that's like throwaway lines. You don't have a bunch of, oh, I kind of think I know what I'm talking about. Let me go Google it in the middle of the episode and try to make it work. And so the last thing I wrote was, they're okay being edited. And I think a lot of podcasts are. I mean, this podcast in particular, drastically improved by Jordan's edit. If you just had me talking for an hour, it would be actually an hour and a half, and you'd get 30 minutes of absolute. Like, nobody wanted to hear that. So you get. At least it gets. When it gets cut, the signal goes up. It's a higher signal. And you can get people who get their feelings hurt when stuff gets edited out. You think your joke landed perfectly, and now it feels bad that someone cut it. The edit is a gift, and you've just got to accept that someone has to make the call and it's going to make a podcast better.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen this a lot in the podcasting space, like, especially online communities or people asking questions or getting advice. Also, podcasters I know personally have had co hosts where they will cut something because they didn't feel like it was accurate, like someone was just spewing information, but it wasn't actually based in any research. It was just an opinion that they were stating as fact, which was, like, maybe hurtful in some way or not conducive to the conversation, and they had to cut it. And then the co host got, like, upset about it. It is important to have somebody that, like, fully understands. Like, we. We gotta make this podcast the best that it is, and someone's gonna mess up at some point and it's gonna get cut. And you know what? Just. It's okay.

[C]

And. And sometimes the. The edit might be the mistake. You might cut something that would have worked, but you can't spend the entire time editing going, oh, my gosh, are my co hosts gonna get mad if I cut this? Are they gonna send me a message and make me defend myself? You just. You're working through it. You're probably spending two times as much time editing as it was to record. So I think there should be a bit of grace given to the person doing the edit. And we just have to say, if it's not you, you gotta release, like, some of your best jokes are gonna get cut.

[B]

But that's a healthy dialogue, and it's not one that we have very often on this show. Jordan does a great job, and again, our relationship is. Is a little bit different in that we have known each other, we've been doing the show for a long time. And so it's hard for me to remember exactly what it was like in the early days of episodes that we were doing together. But I do think there were more notes after Jordan would do the edit. I might go back and leave a note like, oh, I. I wish before you publish, can you cut this little part out? I really didn't, like, I probably shouldn't have said that, or maybe I spoke a little out of turn. That joke didn't land the way I wanted it to. Um, that stuff probably hasn't happened in the last year or so, but maybe in the beginning that stuff happened more often. I also think it's fine for, like, the editor, like, to have the. The back and forth, the. Oh, I really like that segment where we talked about this, but when it came out in the final episode, it got cut down to almost nothing. And for the editor to be able to say, I liked it too, but it was like, 10 minutes for you to make this one point. And I tried to try to tighten it up, but I just couldn't. So I ended up having to cut the whole thing. Like, at the end of the day, it's. You're. You're not a magician when you're doing Editing, you only have the material to work with, and sometimes you can tighten it up and sometimes you can't. And if you can't, you gotta cut the whole thing. So then the editor can say back to the person who was doing the 10 minute rant, I wish you would listen back to the episode too, and maybe figure out how we can gather our thoughts a little bit more beforehand or so you can, you can tighten it up yourself. So then I don't have as much work to do in editing. Because you want to be able to sharpen each other. Like, when you're working with somebody doing something that you like and enjoy that we should be making each other better, not like every time we have a conflict or a mismatch, we end up feeling deflated or, gosh, why am I doing this with this person? They don't get me.

[A]

I think that you are going to experience those kind of growing pains or those kind of, I don't know, moments of tension and, like, trying to navigate, like, what this working relationship is. Because it was so strange for me because I came in as a buzzcast superfan. Like, I had listened to all the episodes at least twice over, and I love the show. And so I came in being like, yeah, I want to kill it. I got this. And it was like, not that. Like, we had notes pretty consistently for, like, the first, like, year, I would say, and. And then I kind of got into the, okay, now I fully understand Albin's way of thinking, Kevin's way of thinking. I can look at a situation or a dialogue and, like, picture it through your lens and make the call of, like, okay, I know that they're going to say this. I know that they're going to say that. I feel confident in that. And it's because of those pain points where we had to, like, kind of get in the groove and communicate with each other that this isn't working, or I don't like that, or, you know, this isn't landing as well as I wanted it to. Can you tighten this up? Or, you know, whatever those kind of back and forths. Like, in the moment, it can feel like, oh, I'm doing a bad job. But really what it is is it's just this, this moment of learning and you're, you're figuring out how things are operating.

[B]

Yeah, I think you guys both know this, but there was a time in the beginning when Jordan would always get the edit in and get the episode ready to publish Thursday night, and it would drop Friday morning. But I would always listen Thursday night I was logging to the Buzz Pride account and listen now sometimes I still do because I just like, like getting better as a podcaster. And so I just like self critique. But now it's just turned into I'm listening, like for the benefit of making myself a better podcaster. Not checking the final edit, not making sure that something didn't slip through that we said, oh, let's, let's cut that out. I actually don't want that in the final episode or something like that. And so what happens is like your trust battery grows. And so as Jordan said as like just the longer we work together, there's no more. Like, I don't feel any burden anymore to be like, I have to go back and check Jordan's work or she might make me sound dumb or something like that. Like, I do a plenty of good job of making myself sound dumb. Jordan's job is to make him sound smart. And I trust her implicitly now to do that because she's done it so well for so long. And so I. That's so great when you turn that corner and there's trust on both sides. Like Jordan said, she has to make calls and she doesn't necessarily have the time or want to bother Alvin or I always with I, I got, I gotta know, like, how should I do this edit? Well, she knows us well enough now and we trust her well enough now that it's just so smooth and wonderful. So anyway, I hope all of our fans who are listening to the show find somebody like that for your show. But that trust level, that trust battery thing, that just takes time. Regardless of whether you end up going into a co host situation with somebody you've known for 20 years or not, this is a new endeavor. And so it's going to take time for that trust to build on both sides as you do this new thing together.

[C]

You know, Kevin, I've got a story that I don't think I've ever told you from our very first episode. So this would have been the first one we ever did with Travis. We did a recording as a group. We all listened to it, we all wrote notes and we handed him Travis. He added it, we listened to it again, we handed him notes. I don't know if we went for like a third round, but I had one where I went through and I just had tons of notes and they were like weird ways I'd said something or weird ums or here's a weird estrange aside, that's not working and I just posted it And Travis was like, hey, just heads up. Like, there's no way we're going to be able to do these podcasts if this is the level of notes. And you chimed in before I even saw it and said, I don't think Alvin's giving you notes on what to do. He's giving notes for himself. Because they were all notes on my own time, if I'm being honest. I don't know which way my notes were intended, but they were definitely good for me to read, even if I wasn't giving them to Travis for him to fix. It was very good in the beginning for me to listen to the podcast with that level of detail because I learned so much about how I talk. And there are lots of things that I was able to improve. Just a normal conversation. I'm like, oh, I have, like, some weird tics. I see some filler words that I am using pretty consistently that it would be helpful if I could drop out and just listening with that critical eye. I can now will go and write myself notes that I never share with Jordan because they're not important to be edited out of the one episode. Much more valuable will be some future edits in my own head. You know, noticing I don't do as well with some of these things. Off the top of my head, it would be better if I wrote down a couple thoughts beforehand, which I've kind of taken to doing over time. So, yeah, maybe don't post everything, but maybe do go right and give yourself some good notes.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, maybe you can try to land the plane or a little bit. Or put a little bow on that present. I think my takeaway from what you just shared is maybe one of the ways to help you find a great co host is to work on yourself. Like being the best co host that you could be.

[C]

Ooh, that's a relationship advice right there.

[B]

Is that some relationship advice?

[C]

Yeah, you gotta, like, sometimes it's all about the perfect person. Maybe it's about being the person that deserves that person.

[B]

Nice. And then you could post that in your subreddit that I have perfected being a podcast co host, and now I am looking for someone to compliment me.

[C]

I have done a lot of work on myself with my podcast counselor.

[A]

That is usually a green flag for when you're dating. If someone has ever been to therapy, you're like, check. Great. You know, actually, speaking of check boxes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We got a famous message from Twilight Zone Media. I'm putting my glasses on here because it's been hard for me to read. So Twilight Zone Media wrote in and said, my approach probably is very common or widely recommended, but it came out of necessity. I'm not a very social person, and when I started Steel watching, I really didn't know anyone in the Remington Steel fan community. So this is a TV show, he says. I knew I wanted a co host, so I posted a brief note in a Facebook fan group explaining that I was starting a podcast about the show and looking for someone interested in co hosting. But here's where he did. That's a little bit different. He said I had specific qualities in mind, but I didn't include those publicly. Instead, I treated it like an open call. Several people reached out, and I scheduled 30 minute Zoom calls to learn about their history with the show and get a feel for how we might interact. And luckily, one of the applicants met every single criterion I had in mind, even though I hadn't shared them. We've now been doing the show together for about five years and are nearing the end of the series. And I think this is so smart because, I mean, I'm gonna. We're circling back to dating again. When you have these, like, profiles, like, these online dating profiles, it's very easy to, like, write down everything that you're looking for in a partner, and then, like, a guy's gonna see that and be like, well, I could do that. I could. Yeah, I could be that guy. I could be in Animals Like It. But really, at their core, they're not that person. And I'm gonna use a reference that you guys probably aren't gonna get, but it's. It's perfect. It's so good. What Twilight Zone Media did is more like practical magic. So in the movie, she writes down all the qualities that she's looking for in a perfect man in her diary, and then she, like, releases those qualities into the wind. And, like, later, he comes to her and he just, like, matches all those things,

[B]

you know? Jordan, I can't believe you said that. I was thinking the exact same thing.

[A]

You don't strike me as a practical magic guy, but it's a good movie, I swear.

[C]

So write down a few of the ideas that the things that you're hoping for, the tone, the vibe. If you're going to meet somebody and try to figure out, does this person match up, maybe you haven't shared every single one of those. So you can see, are we naturally on the same page? Is that. That's what I'm taking from this?

[A]

Yes. Like, is this person at their core, what I'M looking for. And are they going to align with what I'm searching for? Naturally, because that's just who they are, as opposed to. I'm looking for someone who can this. It's like when you put out, like, a job search, right? Like, you. You post all these things and then people write in the resume, like, yeah, I've got experience in Excel. And, like, even if they don't, and they're just going to, like, YouTube it later.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

You put the application out and. Or you say, here's what we want the person to have. And then they take their application and. And your requirements. They throw it to Chat GPT and say, update my application so it fits this and they send it back. So maybe it would be valuable to hold back a few of the things and say, hey, if we were to do a Remington Steel podcast together, what would the tone be? And if they're like, oh, man, it wasn't on the requirement sheet. But what I would like for it to be is really relaxed and kind of goofy. But I do want to get into, like, the moral aspects of the show. I have no idea what this show's about, but I'm just kind of off the top of my head coming up with something, but. And then you're like, oh, exactly. I've always found the moral dilemmas to be really, you know, interesting. Okay, cool. So we do align on that, even though I didn't write it in the Facebook post, you know, request.

[B]

I haven't seen Practical Magic, but there's a show that I have seen called Love on the Spectrum, and if you guys are familiar with that, they often.

[A]

It's my favorite.

[B]

Yeah. So these are, like, dating shows. They're trying to find matches, and they often have criteria sheets. And one episode that I've seen recently, somebody had a criteria sheet of, like, like, nature. And, like, doesn't, like breakfast and stuff. And.

[C]

Yeah, I know exactly what you talk. This. I've seen this, too. Yeah.

[B]

As soon as it, like, doesn't like nature, like, the person, like, writes them off completely. They're like, like,

[C]

I don't really like going outside. And he goes, like, hates nature, crosses her name out. And then they're like, hey, maybe next time, wait till she leaves the table before you cross her name.

[B]

Just did it right in front of her.

[C]

He's like, oh, I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have done that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So maybe if you do audition people for your podcast and if they don't match your criteria, like, don't tell Them right there in the moment.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Such a great show, actually.

[B]

It's the sweetest show on television.

[C]

It is so good. It is so wholesome. And, I mean, there's stuff to learn from how they approach relationships. That's so innocent and kind.

[B]

I loved it. Yeah. All right, guys, so. So tell me, once we find somebody now, like, how do we. How do we seal the deal? So I'm sort of an 80s 90s kid. When we were dating, when we were in high school and college and we were dating, we found somebody. Like, at some point we would have a. What would we call it? What's the acronym? Dtr Conversation to define the relationship talk. Like, you've been going out for a little while, so maybe I'm gonna, like, get a reservation at a little nicer restaurant tonight. You know, again, high school college money. So maybe it's like a Chili's or an Applebee's, and we're gonna. We're gonna go have a nice. Whatever, a meal at Applebee's and we're gonna define their relationship. So if we're ready to lock this in. I found somebody who I think is my co host. What do I need to do?

[C]

I am of the opinion that there's a big gap between we just wing it and we're forming an LLC and we're writing up a partnership agreement. And I think both of Those are, like, Mrs. And there's a big gap in the middle that's like we just write up a shared Apple Note with a couple of ideas. Kevin and I are starting a podcast. We Both own it. 50 50. I'm going to edit. He's going to do the promotion. We're going to shoot to record on Wednesday nights around 6, unless we have to move it. If we ever made any money on it, we'd both get half of it. And if either of us ever want to quit, the other one can find a new co host. That's it. Like, I'm not thinking you write, you know, really long, which state, if you sue me, do you have to sue me in? And what's the venue and all of that. Just like, the main points. Because then when there's a conflict and I. You don't feel like one person's doing the edit and the other one didn't really make any shorts and promote it. You can say, hey, this is our deal. You know, remember we wrote that shared Apple Note? Are you able to keep up with this side of it, or do I need to take on something and you and we swap some responsibilities. So just setting the basis for the relationship, I think is good.

[B]

All right, so it sounds like you're suggesting, like, this is an accountability agreement. It's not a legal document. This isn't designed to hold up at mediation or arbitration or whatever legal term. I don't know, wherever.

[C]

Wherever you end up in conflict.

[B]

But it's a. It's a document that helps you have accountability in the case that one party feels like the other party isn't living up to this agreement. Like, hey, we wrote this down. And so there should be less ambiguity about. Like when we said Wednesday at 6, but for the last three Wednesdays in a row, you've had to move it. That's doesn't feel like living up to the agreement to me. Like, can you tell me what's going on? Do we need to choose another date and time, or is this a bigger issue?

[C]

Yeah, I'm always surprised, with my legal background, how quickly people went from, we haven't really had a tough conversation yet. I'm ready to go hire a lawyer. And you're like, there's a big spectrum between. I mean, filing suit. You're going to be saving so much money. And you're thinking already about, if we got this to trial, who's going to win? I'm like, but I think there's so many times I was advising people, maybe what you need to do is ask. You know, we get these with Buzzsprout. People will write in and say, hey, this episode went live, and I think it's kind of talking about me. So it's defamation. Take it down. And sometimes we'll look at it and go, we don't think it's rise to the level that someone violated our terms of service and should be taken down. Have you tried reaching out to the podcast host and telling them, no? Okay, would you like me to? We could write them and say, hey, this bothers them, and they're worried that it's going to impact their reputation. Would you take it down? And you'd just be shocked. It's like 60% of the time a simple ask works. So if you feel like something's going wrong with your podcast and your co host and you've written down three bullet points and say, hey, I don't feel like this is working out and it bothers me. There's a lot of opportunity for that to be fixed just from a very minor hard conversation, doing something so simple

[A]

as setting these expectations. Because if you do not express what expectations are in the. In the Beginning that is going to create a lot of, like, discord later on. And it's. It's so important to just set those because it's going to make everything so much easier for you. And podcasting should be fun. We have said this a million times. Podcasting should be fun. And if you already have all of this stuff out of the way at the beginning of the podcast, like, relationship, it's going to be so much easier to move forward through your podcasting journey.

[C]

All right, so great story from this. My dad, when we were really young, he went to law school late, and then he had a federal clerkship. And so he's working for this judge. And day two, they're there and it's like seven and it's eight and no one's leaving the office. It's 8:30 and he's got kids at home. And he goes, hey, what time do we leave? And they go, we don't. We wait till the judge leaves, then we leave. And he's like, but it's 8:30, it's 9. And they're like, yeah, we just leave when the judge leaves. And he goes, that doesn't really make sense. And he just walked in, federal judge and says, hey, judge, what time do we. Are we done with work here? And he goes, huh? No one's ever asked. I mean, definitely by seven. And it was nine o' clock then,

[A]

oh my gosh, forever.

[C]

Everyone had assumed, you cannot leave until the judge has left. He just loved his job. So he stayed late and he kept working. He had no expectation that everybody else would stay beyond when he stayed. And so one mildly hard conversation, day two, relieved everybody who worked for him after that from hours and hours of kind of sitting around when they didn't have work to do.

[B]

Alvin, you're the person in my life who gave me this advice, is that I don't necessarily shy away from hard conversations all that often, but I don't like them because I do know that they can be taken the wrong way. And sometimes you have to work through conflict. Now, I always get excited because growth always comes on the back end of conflict. I know that is true in my life, but it's always important to remember that if you're usually having to address somebody with something about something, like an agreement that you have that you don't feel like they're living up to, you're not the one making it awkward. They're the ones that made it awkward by not holding up their end of the agreement. Right. That should be the basis for the Conversation. It doesn't necessarily make it easier, but at least you can go in like, and confidently say, this is just my read on the situation. Hopefully you can explain to me why I'm reading it wrong. But we said we were going to show up every Wednesday at 6:00 and record this. And for the last three Wednesdays, you haven't. So I don't like making this a thing. I don't want to make it a bigger thing. But how do we resolve it? Is Wednesdays at 6 work for you? Do we need to choose another time? Is the podcast just not something that's fun in your life? But again, you're not the one who did it like they did. They didn't show up.

[C]

Yeah, I think that the first time I realized this was somebody lied to me and I was like, oh, I kind of have to bring this up. But I mean, I don't hate to make this weird. Wait a second, I'm not making this weird. They made it weird by lying to me and now I have to be the one to say it. That's not weird. Yeah, it's normal to say, hey, man, don't like it when you lie to me.

[A]

That's so common to be like, oh, I don't want to be a jerk, like, by confronting them about their bad behavior.

[B]

Well, that's. That's good. It does. It sounds like we're all aligned, which I know is boring podcast content, but we all agree there should be some sort of expectation set. Ideally, you could write those down. They don't need to be too detailed. You don't need to get the gold medallion, medallion stamp and the notarized deal. I think a simple pin prick and putting your bloodprint on it is enough in most cases. More than enough. More than enough.

[A]

So kind of ancient ritual we do at Buzz Proud.

[B]

Right. But then the harder part would be then, of course, if somebody falls short and maybe it's you, maybe you have to have like a confessional to your PODC host is if the. If the agreement gets violated on one side or the other, you have to be able to maybe be strong enough to have that conversation with them or maybe call them up and just say, hey, I have to confess, like, I don't feel good about. I haven't been able to hold up my end of the agreement. So I know that might be hard for you to say, so I'm going to take the big step and say it first, but I want to resolve it. But either way, setting expectations up front and then doing Your best you can as a. As a partner in the podcast with the other people to live up to your end and hold them accountable for their end. I think that's the healthiest way to run a show.

[A]

All right, let's get into some fan mail. So first up, we have a message from Chris from Podtastic Audio. And Chris said, your video looks so good. I'm getting distracted. How beautiful you all look. I'm sorry, what did you say? I was distracted by the video. I might need to.

[C]

The dramatic reading.

[A]

Turn the video off and listen, Jordan.

[B]

The dramatic reading is over the top.

[C]

Very kind to you, Chris. I'm pretty sure that fan mail was addressed to Kevin and Jordan.

[B]

Oh, yep, definitely. I think that's worth commenting on just. Just a little bit. There's a lot of video podcasts that are starting to come online. Well, I'm getting exposed to more of them. Again, I'm not a YouTube person, so now that they're coming to Apple podcasts, I'm seeing more and more of them. And there is a pretty big, like, difference between some video quality in the different podcasts. And I'm not sure that, like, I don't think we're doing anything special. I will tell you that we are recording our own videos locally and then, like, syncing them up afterward, like, so that can make a difference in the quality. But I don't know. I'm going to continue to think about that and dig into that because, like, we're just publishing. Maybe it's these remote recording solutions and stuff that other people using. Maybe there's more degradation happening. Chris. Anyway, I'm interested. Are you giving us, like, personal compliments? I need to know. Are you saying

[A]

beautiful?

[B]

The video is beautiful.

[A]

Here's my video. I have to know.

[B]

And I swear I'm asking for technical reasons, not for vanity.

[C]

Although I'm going to 10. Like, how hot am I?

[B]

Actually, I take the compliment both ways because I also write the text. So, like, either way, I'm flattered.

[C]

We got another fan mail from Brendan and Juan in the morning. Recently, we've been featured on Apple's homepages for video. Congratulations. That's awesome. And we have been getting a lot of negative ratings. Oh, no. Okay, you gotta read the whole thing. How would you recommend processing and improving these ratings and not getting bummed out about them? All right, I went and read a few of these reviews and ratings, and it pretty much looks like the show has a ton of five stars and recently got hit by a bunch of one stars. So it's people who showed up went, I hate it. And they gave it a ding. Some of them, it's just clear that it's people who, they aren't actually interested in the podcast itself. So they. It's a movie. It looks like they talk about movies and do movie reviews. They don't like the subject. So I'm guessing a lot of these reviews are not necessarily people who listened and thought you were doing a bad job of a podcast. They're people that Apple promoted you to. And the positive is you do get a lot of exposure. The downside is that exposure is often to people who aren't a perfect fit for the podcast. They don't necessarily like the vibe or the subject matter, or maybe they're confused by the name. And so they showed up looking for a different type of podcast. So I hear you. When we started getting more promotion on YouTube, we ran into this as well. I remember somebody wrote a comment that said, hey, next episode, why don't you try nailing your hands to the table so you stop using them so much? In the video, you're like, okay, that was me.

[B]

My bad, Alvin. Sorry, I was just trying to be direct. I was.

[C]

No, I mean, another one. We got one of those just like, typical soy boy. And you're like, what does that even mean?

[B]

I think I know what it means.

[C]

You had a bunch of. You drink a lot of soy milk and look effeminate or something. It's just like, people will just write mean stuff. And apparently some of them stuck with me.

[B]

People on multi levels, like, you should never do stuff like that. I. I think that's where it crosses the lines. Like when you start calling people names and then especially names that, like, other people are more effeminate and like, shut up. Like, that's.

[C]

There's nothing wrong.

[B]

Nothing wrong with that. Don't use that. Don't use that as a cut down. Anyway, I hate all of it. I just don't understand why it exists, but it does. But here's. Here's the one thing, like, silver lining guy, that's who I am. I just always find the silver lining. So I will give you the silver lining.

[A]

The silver lining of the.

[B]

Hey. The most popular shows in the world. The most popular things in the world, they always have their critics. And some of those critics are very vocal. The reality is they're not probably the majority of people who listen to your show. There's just enough and they make a lot of noise. But if you're going to get any level of success and if you're going to put your creation and your art out to the world, then that's just part of what comes with it. But recognize that the most successful people always have critics that follow along with it. Jordan does a great thing where she just, does she. She has like a filter. You want to tell them how you like. You filter your podcast reviews?

[A]

Yeah, I hate ratings and reviews so much that I do like a buddy system. I like to live in like delusion because I do my best work in that delusional world. And so my husband will check my ratings, reviews. I will never, ever, ever look at comments, ratings, or reviews because I hate getting feedback from just like randos on the Internet. And so my husband will like just kind of check periodically and if he sees a nice five star review, he will like screenshot it and text it to me. You should do this, like, especially if you are getting hurt and you like really love podcasting and you're enjoying what you're doing. Like it's, it's hard to shut out people who are being negative on the Internet. You will get 5 million good like reviews and then you get 1 or 2 that are just devastating or just mean and it can really like knock you down and kind of get you off track. So I recommend doing the buddy system thing like have, have a friend, have your mom or your sister, cousin or whatever. Like look at your reviews periodically and then just like send you the nice ones.

[C]

You know, you could also get some of these actually removed by Apple if they do cross the line into. They're just attacking you. It's not about, it's not a review of the show. It's just like kind of mean spirited. Didn't. Was it you, Kevin, or your son who ran into this at some point when he did the show during COVID

[B]

Yeah, when my son was, I think, 12 years old, he started a podcast with some of his friends. They were out of school on COVID lockdown and I thought it would be fun for them to start a podcast. So they started doing like movie reviews. And it was just a Fun show of three 12 year old kids. And people would go in on the comments and they'd be like, this is terrible. Like, these kids have no idea of what, like, like about the movie or this take is stupid. But then there were some that would go way beyond that and just like say mean, personal things to 12 year old kids. Anyway, the point that Alvin's making is that there was one or two of them where I did just write Apple and just be like this doesn't seem to add any value and it's attacking children. Can. Would you guys be open to removing it? And within a couple days it was gone. And so Apple is awesome about stuff like that. They should be either like criticisms of the content itself and if there's anything that falls outside of the boundaries there, Apple's usually pretty good at working with you at taking it down.

[A]

Thank you both so much for writing in. I actually really enjoy getting these kind of like feedback and advice messages from our listeners. So if you want us to give you some real time advice, go ahead and tap the send us fan mail link in the show notes. And until next time, thanks for listening and keep podcasting. So Albin, you are officiating a wedding this weekend?

[C]

Yes, I was actually up till 2:30 last night working on the like little speech that I'm giving I my friend Georgia. Speech?

[B]

Or is it like a sermon?

[C]

So are you approaching this honestly? It is a sermon, but I'm not a pastor and so I feel very awkward saying sermon now. They did say when I met with my friend as future wife and I said, you know, we talked through. What do you want out of the service?

[B]

There's a name for future wife. Do you know that as an, as a wedding officiant. Beyonce.

[C]

Beyonce. I was thinking it was something with benefits and I couldn't get it right. You're right. Okay. No, no. Beyonce. Nice.

[A]

Alvin, you had a fiance at one point.

[C]

Fiance.

[B]

You need to nail the terminology before you go do this wedding.

[C]

All right, you know, so I got the terminology locked in. I'm going to give a sermon to the couple to be. I couldn't even do that.

[B]

Bride and groom. They are bride and groom. Not couple to be nice.

[A]

To be fair, Alvin was up until 2:30 working on this. So like he's not firing at all.

[B]

Good Lord. If you get in front of the wedding party and say couple to be be, that's gonna like.

[C]

That's why I'm writing it out. It's all written. I've got, got a bunch of good stuff.

[B]

All right, I'm sorry, you seem a little flustered right now, Pastor Alvin. Resume your story. How's this wedding going down?

[C]

I'm shooting for like four minutes. What do you guys think about that? The first thing I thought was, I love it. I was in a wedding, I was a groomsman and we had a straight 4:45 minute sermon. And I'm sure, I remember my mom was there and she was like, wow, that was one of the best sermons I've ever heard. And I was like, the whole time I just thought, don't pass out. Like my knees are locking. Don't pass out. Like don't fall over on somebody. So my thought was three to five minutes, that's the sweet spot. Try to give a couple interesting non cliche thoughts and move on. Any, any feedback on that?

[A]

I mean, that's exactly what I asked for for my wedding. Like it was my father in law who officiated because he's a pastor and he asked me what I wanted and I said quick and dirty. Like just, I want to get people to the like reception.

[B]

And what's, what's the dirty part? I understand the quick. Like you wanted him to drop a few crude jokes.

[A]

No, I was just like, like the

[B]

filthiest joke you've ever heard. Please drop it at my wedding.

[A]

Please put it. He would too. He's funny.

[C]

Okay. That's one thing I did take out. I think there's times where the officiant goes in there and they've got like jokes like this isn't stand up. It's like, and most of the jokes are like weirdly misogynistic or like, I don't know, cynical. It's like, this is the best it's ever going to be. When you fight, make sure you remember she's always right. Or at least tell her she is. And I'm like, I hate that. Why would you put that in? Like this is your one moment to tell them.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Hey, here's how to set you up for your next, hopefully 40, 50 years of life together. And you decided to use like, hey, here's a joke I watched in a show that was on TV in the 70s.

[B]

Well, you're talking about like bad jokes, Specifically bad joke that's no good. If you've got a, if you've got, you got a zinger, like a really good one, I'd go for it. I'd go all in. I would do it dramatically. Just like Jordan read that fan mail. Like just lay it all out on the table. Try to get all the attention on you, all the laughs your way.

[C]

I sorry.

[B]

Hand out anybody else. Get married in the crowd. Work the crowd. Maybe you can get more business.

[C]

Hey, what's your relationship with the bridegroom? Oh, the father. Oh, okay. Try to do a little crowd work.

[B]

Okay, so no jokes. What about, have you considered magic? Like it would be fun if you had a magic trick, right?

[C]

What kind of magic work into this?

[B]

I don't know. I imagine like what if they walk up. What if the bride and groom walk up but you haven't appeared yet and then boom, puff of smoke and then you're. You emerge from the mist.

[C]

Oh, like Michael Jackson in the 92 Super bowl, like jumping out of the smoke.

[B]

Yeah. You shoot up from the bottom of

[A]

the sparkling or whatever.

[B]

Yes, I will look into that when

[C]

I get to the venue to see if that's an opportunity. Besides that, I don't. I don't know if magic is. Is in the cards for me.

[A]

In the cards.

[B]

Nice pickup, Jordan.

[A]

I think you should do it. It's great. Like pull, Pull the ring out from behind the groom's ear.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

I was at a wedding where the ring was lost mid ceremony. They put the ring, you could just see it coming a mile away. They had like a three year old nephew and they gave him a little pillow for the ring bearer and they put the ring on top. Typically, you don't give the ring bearer the actual ring or it's secured. Neither was done. Outdoor wedding, St. Augustine grass, and it's thick. Ring falls in right in front of the bride and it's like five minutes of everyone on hands and knees digging, trying to find it.

[A]

Oh, my God, they found it.

[C]

But it's like you just knew it was gonna happen. The whole way he's walking and wobbling and you're just waiting for the inevitable.

[B]

I like it. That feels like a setup. It just feels like it's fantastic. And then you, you as the magician officiant, could have like appeared the ring out of the bride's mouth or something like that. She's coughing all of a sudden, then spits it up.

[C]

Oh, it was behind your ear the whole time?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I now pronounce you man and wife.

[B]

All right, well, that's awesome. Good luck, have fun. And congrats to the couple to be, as they, as they say in the biz, couple to be.