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- [00:01]
A
Jordan, welcome back. I'm looking at basecamp right now. And you just came back from UFO Con out in Portland or some kind of UFO thing. What did you go to?
- [00:11]
B
You're so close. I went to the UFO Fest in McMinnville, Oregon. It's just south of Portland.
- [00:17]
A
UFO Fest.
- [00:18]
B
But it is kind of a conference, too. Like, they had speakers, they had a parade and costume contests, and they had, like, UFO Pub Trivia night. I, um. So it was a whole smattering of things. It was a great weekend.
- [00:31]
A
The costumes, I feel like that's exactly what the aliens want. Right. Because now they can just come in. They can intermingle with humans who are all dressing up, and now they're living their best lives.
- [00:42]
B
Yeah. Like, if there are these weird, like, interdimensional, like, blob beings, and then they
- [00:47]
A
went third place at the costume prize, and people like, you did pretty good, but it's not, like, totally convincing, honestly.
- [00:53]
B
There were some really good costumes there, like, Comic Con level. So I. There could have been some actual aliens there, and I just didn't know.
- [01:00]
A
Well, you had alien Abe Lincoln. We have alien dogs. Yes, but you also had photos of, like, a guy in a buc ee's hat wearing a Snuggie, which I don't think counts as a costume, but he was in the costume parade.
- [01:14]
B
Yeah, they're just festive. It's. It's sort of like, you know how in school you had, like, Spirit Week and people just wore, like, the school colors and stuff? It was sort of like an alien pep rally for most of it.
- [01:25]
A
Alien pep rally?
- [01:26]
B
Yeah. Like, I had, like, the little headband with, like, the two alien heads that, like, were on springs on the end of it. Like, it was just goofy. It was so fun.
- [01:34]
A
You had your silver cowboy boots from when we went to Nashville.
- [01:39]
B
Yes. So a lot of people. It was really funny. There was a lot of people walking around with tinfoil, and they were, like, taking off sheets of tinfoil and helping people put it on top of their heads as they, like, walked around the street and stuff. Yeah, it was great. It was really fun. I mean, McMannville, it's in, like, wine country, so there's, like, tons of vineyards and, like, breweries and, like, these really nice restaurants, and the whole town is so stunning. It's gorgeous. If you ever need a little weekend vacation, I highly recommend it. But during UFO fests, like, 10,000 people pour into this small downtown area. It was crazy.
- [02:11]
A
Well, the truth is out there. The wine specials are out there. Go to Oregon, if you want a
- [02:16]
B
good time, Here we go. Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all things podcasting from the people at Buzzsprout. I am so excited because we have a guest on the show again, and it's a returning guest, Alex Sanfilippo from PodMatch. Welcome back.
- [02:39]
C
Thanks, Jordan. Thanks, Alvin. Glad to be here with y'. All.
- [02:41]
A
Podmatch.com use code BUZZSPROUT for your special offer.
- [02:46]
B
Great plug, Alvin. Yeah. So we had a listener write in and ask about podcast guesting and etiquette around, like, pitching your podcast, things like that. And so we thought, who better to have on than Alex? So last time we had you on, I'll actually link to the episode if anyone wants to go back and listen to it. It was really good. We kind of focused more on the overarching theme of podcast guesting and, like, building relationships and introducing yourself as a podcast host or as a guest. And so this time, we're going to get a little bit more practical about these tips and break down how to build your guesting profile and also pitch yourself as a guest on a podcast, because I will dive on this hill that podcast guesting is my favorite growth strategy as a podcaster and also personal growth strategy. Alex, I was actually listening to one of your episodes of Podcasting Made simple, and you were talking about how guesting on other podcasts has benefits even just outside of promoting your own podcast or promoting your brand.
- [03:50]
C
Yeah, I call it like, the hidden benefit of podcast guesting, because a lot of people immediately go to, okay, how do I get on the biggest shows with the most downloads? Or how do I get on a hundred different shows? And, yeah, there's tons of benefits on that side, of course, but, like, what we forget about is the ability to build relationships. Every time you're a guest on a podcast, you're building a relationship with a host. In addition to that, like, I think my favorite part is the ability that you have to start really developing your voice further and growing your message. I mean, it makes you a better podcaster. If you're a podcast guest, you'll come back to your own show better, articulating more clearly because you're getting questioned about things. When you're the host, you don't get questioned about it. Right? You're like, I need to say that better, and you come back just more prepared. So those are some of those hidden benefits. And I think that that alone makes podcast guesting worth it. If no one ever listens to it, you've got those things as benefits, I think go a really long way when it comes to developing your voice. And for me, I'm a better communicator just in my regular life. I'm a better communicator from stage. I'm a better podcaster just by being a guest on podcast with zero people ever hearing it.
- [04:45]
A
All right, so if we want to be on podcasts is the way to get onto podcasts, to reach out. Cold email, hundreds of shows. And it's like, I loved the content of the last episode, by the way. Sometimes they'll get smart enough that there's like a sentence in there that's connected to the actual show and then it immediately pivots to, by the way, did you know CEO of a company you've never heard of wants to be on your show? And I'm like, this isn't even close to a fit. And half the time it's for a podcast that's not even buzzcast. So the one that I'm not even associated with, and I can't imagine that that works, but there's still tons of people that send those out.
- [05:21]
B
Yeah. If you are going to go like the cold email route with pitching yourself to be a guest on a podcast, you need to make sure that you're really standing out because you do not want to come across like the AI generated like newsletter style mass emails where like a PR agent is like sending that in and getting a PR person to pitch you to be a guest on other podcasts is a way that you can, you know, get guest spots on other podcasts. But I don't really recommend it typically, because so many of these PR people are the ones I'm getting these mass emails from where it's like the spray and pray method. So it's hard. Like, I'm sure that there's some people out there that are really reliable and really great at their job, but I think a lot of times it's. It's kind of sketchy, especially if you hire someone like virtually to get you on other podcasts. It's probably like those podcast promoters where they're just like buying downloads and things like that.
- [06:15]
C
Yeah.
- [06:15]
A
I think what hits me wrong is the sheer like, inauthenticity that comes along with it because it's like, I loved this episode. They have nothing to say about why they liked it and then they immediately pivot to. And I know you would love a guest on the show that doesn't really have guests. You know, rarely do we have guests, like today actually. But like, it's not really a good fit. And you know it's not a good fit. I would probably respect it a bit more if they were just like, hey, I found you on a list I bought of people who have a podcast, want to talk to the CEO of this company and go, no. But, like, at least it was an honest ask versus the one that pretended to be a fan.
- [06:53]
B
Yeah.
- [06:54]
C
So I'm not just a fan of, like, the cold email outreach. Like, cold outreach is fine. And Jordan, I know you've had experience with that, you've had experience with using other platforms and stuff as well, but I'm really big on meeting the host where they are, like, example, just automatically defaulting to I'm going to cold pitch via email. A lot of people, because it's simple, because it's easy. Well, what if they're super active on, let's say, Instagram and they're like always doing selfie videos of themselves? In my mind, send them a selfie video in their dm. And that's gonna give you a far greater chance than somebody who's using their email example, because I've just found typically people who post on their stories ten times a day don't actually check email. Like, there's something different in their brain where they're like, I don't check email, but I'll check every social dm, especially if it's a video, the way that I like to receive it. And that's just one of many examples, like, if you are going to reach out cold, reach out where the host likes to be reached out to in the way they like to receive information. And so, like, if there's. It's interesting, we have a whole segment of podcasters on podmatch that are. The hosts are dyslexic and they're talking about, like, how to, like, kind of kind of live in that world. And then they tell me they get these super long emails we were pitching them. They're like, I can't even read this. I'm like, well, shame on the guests for, like, being like, oh, wow, it's amazing. Here's all this stuff. I'm like, yes, dyslexic might actually have a hard time reading that. So it's, again, you're not respecting the host, the platform. Instead, keep it really short. Maybe it's a video that they like better. Right. Whatever it might be, I'm not trying to pick on anybody. It's just an example of reaching out in the way that someone's going to be able to Receive it if you are going to reach out cold.
- [08:16]
A
Yeah, well, our show, if we were trying to get guests, the way to reach us would be through fan mail. We talk about fan mail every single episode. We say, reach out to us via fan mail, and then someone sends an email to jordan sprout.com and is like, I'd be a perfect guest. You kind of know they're not really listening to the show. If they were, they'd probably reached out via fan mail.
- [08:35]
B
I mean, we had Dave Jackson send us a fan message and was just like, hey, you want to come on?
- [08:39]
C
I'm like, yep, that's a perfect example. I mean, met you where you're at. That's. That's exactly the first and best piece of advice I could give to anyone. Want to be a guest? Figure out how the host wants to be contacted and contact them that way.
- [08:50]
B
Yeah, and I know that you're not going to. Just because I know you as a person, Alex. I know that you're not going to be pushing Pod Match, but I'm going to push it for you because I went through sort of like, a period where I was just trying to guest on, like, a bunch of podcasts and. And, you know, kind of get, like, my reps in with that and get better at guesting on podcasts. I mean, like we were talking about earlier, it really sharpens your skills as a podcaster. I feel like I've grown exponentially after guesting on other podcasts, and it's to the point where, like, my anxiety about guesting other podcasts has gone away, which is so funny. Like, even if it's a small podcast, I would get anxiety before going on and just, like, overanalyze everything. And now it's to the point where I'm like, I can just show up and, like, be myself, and that's great, you know, and I just feel a lot more confident in what I have. So I did pitch some podcasts in cold emails, and obviously, I put a lot of thought into it. And, you know, you have to research, like, every single podcast, and that's great, but, like, the amount of podcasters that would not respond to me was quite a bit. And it's probably just because they have pitch fatigue in their inbox. Right? Or, like you said, I wasn't meeting them where they're at. So I tried Pod Match, and I actually went through, like, your whole system and, like, built up my profile and made sure that I had everything nice. I had all my photos. I had, like, links to everything. And it was so crazy because I had spent so long pitching myself to other podcasts. And then I just created my Pod Match profile. And I remember going to bed and I woke up the next morning, and I had, like, my entire email screen was, like, filled with people saying, like, hey, will you please come on? And it was like, podcasts about podcasting. Like, it was the people that I was actually trying to meet with. And it was such a game changer for me. So I know that you're not gonna, like, say all this stuff. I will say it for you. It was awesome.
- [10:43]
C
Thanks, Jordan. I appreciate that. And I've actually used your guest profile on Pod Match as an example of someone who built out a good one. Like, I can tell you put in the time. Like, you didn't just, like, throw it together.
- [10:52]
B
Yeah.
- [10:52]
C
My least favorite thing to see on Pod Match is actually really rare. But when someone puts in their bio will fill out later, I'm like, that's not going to get you booked. You know, like, that shows that you're lazy already. Like, a host isn't like, ooh, a lazy guest. That's what I want.
- [11:04]
B
Right.
- [11:04]
C
Like, and so. But you put in the work and you really thought through it. And so that's what the system is built for. If you do a really good job, it's going to reward those efforts.
- [11:11]
A
Yeah. You want a little bit of confidence that the person's going to show up for the interviews. They're going to help promote it. Afterward, when you ask them for a headshot, they'll send it over. When you need a description about something, like, they'll be able to send it to you. And if they can't fill out the host profile, that's a good filter that they're probably not going to be super reliable. So I hear, Alex, you're saying, like, reach out to people the way they want to be reached out to make sure that you're actually pitching. Podcasts are a good fit, which feels kind of table stakes. Like, you need to do that. What is Pod Match actually doing that's different than just cold email calendar done by, like, a normal person and not your AI agent?
- [11:50]
C
Yeah. So first off, Pod Match is not the only community that does stuff like this. But basically it's a platform where hosts. So podcasters looking for guests have opted in. If they are on it, it means they have told the world, I'm here because I'm looking for guests. And that, to me, automatically removes the majority of the friction. Because, Jordan, when you're reaching out Like, I know you had some success with it, but what if they're between seasons? Or what if they're not doing their show anymore? Or what if they just. What if they don't check their email? Right. There's all these different things, but when someone signs up to a platform like Pod Match, they're saying, hey, I'm here, putting myself on display. I'm ready for you to reach out. Please reach out to me because I am looking for guests right now.
- [12:26]
B
Yeah.
- [12:26]
C
And that to me, when it comes to just the value of our time, I'm not going to do any other sort of outreach. I want to go where someone's already told me I'm looking. Please tell me that you're the right fit. Right. Like, that's where I. That's how I want to use my time really well. And I think that that's the thing that separates it, Alvin, more than, than anything else is the fact that it's. It's an opted into system that someone's there saying, hey, I'm looking.
- [12:44]
A
Yeah. Do you have any reviews or ways to actually tell if somebody has had guests on and they've been reviewed by the guests? And so you can tell like, okay, these episodes actually come out.
- [12:52]
C
Yeah, we have a couple backend tracking systems to make sure that episodes are actually coming out. So from a quality standpoint, we like to make sure that, like, hey, there's an actual production process and we flag people that it's like, hey, they did 10 interviews and released one episode. Like, what's going on here? Right. Like, we're able to look at that. But at the same time, there's a review process. The hosts review the guest and the guests review the host. And I personally like that. Cause that also gives me a lot of confidence that somebody else has had a good experience with this podcast or with this guest. Like, for my own show, when I'm picking guests, I like to see that I'm not the first person giving them a shot. Not that I'm against that. But when they have five or ten reviews from past hosts saying, this person was amazing, they showed up, they added value. I'm then like, okay, that sounds good. That's what I'm looking for. Right. And so that's on both sides of it that we have people being able to say that.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah, I've probably told this story before, but I got on a podcast once and we did a whole episode and at the end of it, the host goes, man, thank you so much. That'll probably be one of My practice episodes, though, so I'm not gonna release it. And I was like, what?
- [13:48]
C
What?
- [13:49]
A
Come on, man, you can't ask me to come be on the practice episode.
- [13:54]
C
Dude, I have never heard that one. You did great, Albin. I was terrible. So I'm not going to post it.
- [14:00]
B
Yeah. One of the things I really love. You also track the frequency of no shows or like the likelihood of no shows. Probably everyone has had that where you like schedule a thing and it's via email and you're like sitting in like the studio and the host just doesn't show up for it. I mean, it happens to like, everybody, but if it happens a lot. I know. So when people would pitch me to come on their podcast, I now will immediately go to the profile and just like, that's one of the first things I check is the no show. And if it's higher than like 15%, I'm like, probably not.
- [14:32]
A
That's.
- [14:32]
C
I do the same thing. It's. It's wise. You have to protect your time. Right. And so I'm all for giving somebody grace. We automatically remove people from the platform when they pass a certain threshold.
- [14:40]
B
Oh.
- [14:41]
C
If they've only had three interviews and they missed one, that is. That means they've missed 33% of their interviews. Right?
- [14:45]
A
Yeah.
- [14:46]
C
But when it's just that one, we give grace and typically we'll, we'll reach out, like me or Alicia actually reach out and be like, hey, so I missed the interview. What came up? And typically people are like, I'm so sorry, I already rescheduled, like some sort of family emergency. Right. And it's like, cool, we want to have grace with that. But when there's someone who hasn't shown up to like seven of the last 10, I mean, there's only so much that can happen in life, I like to think. Right. And we typically will just. We refund those people, we remove their account. Not to be rude or mean, but we want people that respect others time and energy on the platform. And so we're really careful with making sure that we don't allow bad apples to stay on that are just not being respectful of other people's time.
- [15:19]
B
Yes.
- [15:19]
A
Yeah, that makes sense. You want to make sure that the community is healthy by people are showing up to do interviews that they say they're going to do.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah. Okay. So we had talked about building a guest profile, and I know that we're talking about this in the context of Pod Match, but I think that these rules really do apply to, you know, creating like a media one sheet or building your sort of like, LinkedIn profile. And I almost hesitate to say building your LinkedIn profile because I think a lot of times people will treat their podcast guest pitch or their, like, introduction to who they are as a podcaster as, like, their resume. And I don't think it's the same thing. Building your guest profile is really showing the podcast host who you are as a guest and what kind of episode you're going to build together. Like, what they can expect to get from you, what kind of value you're going to bring to their audience. Whereas a Resume or a LinkedIn profile usually has your accolades and your achievements and, you know, your. What I've done. And it's. It's sort of like bragging rights territory as opposed to, here's the value that I bring.
- [16:29]
A
Your resume is telling a future employer, hey, here's what we could do together versus a podcast.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah.
- [16:36]
A
A different podcast are going to want very different parts of your backstory when they're doing an interview. I've noticed. Sometimes I've gone on thinking, oh, I'm being interviewed about one thing, and it's something totally different.
- [16:47]
B
Yeah.
- [16:48]
A
And if it's a podcast about being homeschooled or homeschooling children, that's gonna be a very different part of my personality than talking about podcasts or talking about law or books or something like. Those are all gonna just be different parts of me. And you wanna get into the right headspace.
- [17:02]
B
You contain multitudes. Alvin.
- [17:05]
A
Not. Not that any of those actually be good episodes, but if I'm being invited on, I would be like, oh, I. Now let me think through which of these aspects I want to bring out.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah. We did run, like, a survey on what podcast hosts are looking for, and the vast majority of them said that when they're looking for a guest for their podcast, they're looking for topic relevance and guest expertise. Also, if the person has, like, a clear idea in their head of, like, what kind of episode they would want to do, and audience size was negligible, it's like 14% of all the people that we surveyed were looking for audience size. And I'm sure that you have somewhat similar statistics or data from Pod Match.
- [17:45]
C
Yeah, it's about the same. And to the point you're making here, people that are being a guest, they want to treat it like a resume because to them, they're like, okay, I might not have the following of celebrity A, but I've got a lot, and I want to be able to show that. And so I get the notion of that, and I think that's honorable. But that's to your point, Jordan, that those stats, we see pretty much exactly the same numbers that you just shared. Like, as far as, like, hey, this is the most important, the least important. Right. And it's not what matters. It's not what you're looking for. And then the day, what a good podcast host is looking for. And a lot of people are hearing this. They're already podcasters. So you know this. You're looking for a good conversation. I know we use the word interview, but you're looking for a conversation.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah.
- [18:20]
C
Imagine, Jordan, if you and I met for the first time, I show up with my resume. Hey, Jordan, great to meet you. Here's all my achievements. No, like, we're just going to see. Do we have any synergy to hit it off? Like, are we going to hang out later or.
- [18:29]
B
No, you know, like, this guy's weird.
- [18:31]
C
Yeah, right. That would be really odd. But the point is, people are looking for someone else who's human but has the right experience. It's going to serve their audience. And so for many of us, we just got to let go of the fact that our credentials aren't really going to matter. There's other things that do matter, of course, and there is a time and place for that as well. When a host starts doing the research, they might actually want that, but initially, that's not what they're looking for. That's not what you lean forward with. You want to show them something that's like, hey, this is kind of my personality. This is what I talk about. This is what I can do so that they can start saying, okay, I like this person, and they have some experience. I'm actually looking for now I want to dig a little bit deeper.
- [19:05]
B
So when someone is building out their guest profile, or I suppose, like their guest one sheet, what kind of tips do you have for someone who's starting to build that out if they don't really know where to start?
- [19:15]
C
Yeah, I've got 10 different things. I include. This is like a prepoint, but make sure it's digital. Like, you don't need to use Pod match. I mean, Jordan, if there's a way for people to see your profile, that'd probably be helpful, just to see how you need to build it up and make sure it's digital is what matters. What I mean is don't use a PDF, don't make it something that you're going to email to people you want it to be some sort of webpage. And the reason for that is all the podcast hosts here in this are going to agree. I want to be able to download the photos, I want to be able to copy paste, I want to be able to actually have something useful, especially PDFs. Like you can't really pull the images out of it. I got these little icons of images and that's not actually helpful. So I'm still going to need to go back and forth. The idea is to remove the administrative back and forth with this. So you're building something out that gives people that are the host something they can look at but also pull from directly.
- [19:57]
B
That is such a good tip. I would have assumed that it would be totally fine to send someone a PDF of everything, but you're so right that it cuts way back on the back and forth conversations that you're having. And I think that we've all been in situations where you've done an interview or you've been a guest somewhere, or you've. You've sent something and instead of using your preferred headshot, the person never asked for the headshot. They just did a Google search of you and then used like your college photo back in 2009.
- [20:25]
A
It is funny how some image that gets online of you will end up getting repurposed over and over and over and you'll see people. Like sometimes you'll meet somebody in real life and you'll go, oh, I've only ever known you from one profile photo. That's everywhere. And that photo is now 12 years old and you look like a totally different person.
- [20:43]
C
Right? Yeah. You meet them, you're like, do I know you?
- [20:46]
A
Like, come on, man, we're great buddies from Twitter.
- [20:49]
C
This goes right in my first point of these 10 things. Have a photo and be willing to update from time to time. So have your main photo somewhere on this page. Typically, I recommend just at the top, have your a photo that can be downloaded and then add your name. Correct spelling please, and tagline, like, or title, whatever you like.
- [21:04]
A
Signature catchphrase.
- [21:06]
C
Yeah, your signature catchphrase. That's perfect. Alvin, what is yours, by the way? What do you got?
- [21:09]
A
I don't know. I need to get one now that I know that this is an important piece.
- [21:12]
C
All right, well, you got time. I'm gonna go through these and you come up with it. So number two is you want to have some more approved images or photos of you. So like your main one is just for people to look at, but you want to have some, some options that people can have. And that way it keeps them from going to do an image search on a search engine and saying like, oh, well, this picture is better that you might not want to be used. Give them the images. It gives direction. The next thing you want is an introduction. The introduction is typically what the podcast host is going to read. And it's okay to have it somewhat formal. I recommend keeping it short, but Alvin and I actually just talked about this last week. He was on my podcast and he brought up a good point. He's like, man, the podcast I like to listen to the most. Alvin, I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit. Sorry. Basically what Alvin was saying is like, I like a podcast introduction to feel like a person just talking about another person. Like, if I was introducing Jordan to Albin, I wouldn't be like, albin, meet Jordan. She's the host of. And then like just go into like all that. Right. Instead of be like, hey, Alvin, this is Jordan. She's a great podcaster. You should meet her. Like, it feels human.
- [22:05]
B
Yeah. That's one of my pet peeves is when I'm listening to a podcast and the person's like, very clearly just reading the LinkedIn bio, like, they're an award winning speaker across multiple platforms in 134 countries. And it's just like they're rattling off all this stuff and I'm like, why do I as a listener care about this? Like, and I hear it so often.
- [22:24]
C
Yeah. I think that most of that stuff comes up naturally in the conversation. And so like the introduction like this again, you're giving direction to the host. And I typically, I'll say, hey, keep it short. I always say that, like my introduction, it has like in quotes like, please keep it short. And I typically, even when I get there before we hit record, like, I'm reinforcing, like, hey, just say hey, this is Alex. He's a podcaster. He runs podmatch.com. right. Like, just. That's all I need. Right. Like, we can build off the rest. But anyway, I'm going off topic here. So again, like have your main photo, your other photos, people can use your introduction. The next one's your call to action podcast host at some point or say, where can listeners find out more about you? You want them to have some understanding of what that's going to be because that way it doesn't kind of blindside them or they try to re explain it and you're like, not exactly. Right. Like you want to have the link. You Want to have a quick little description of, like, hey, this is the call to action I'm wanting to provide. The next thing is a little bit more details about you. So your introduction, keep it short. A little bit more about you is where you can go into some of these details. Hey, I've spoken in 30 countries. I've got six books, right? That's where you can kind of keep some more of these type of things. And the next thing is your links. Because I've seen it happen. When you don't give host links, they're going to go try to find them themselves. And typically one or two are going to be the wrong link. And you'll be like, that's not mine. Right? Like, and it just happens. So give the links, your website, your social media, wherever you might have, and then kind of get into the important stuff. Now, ideas for the episodes, like, main focus or idea for the episode title, even, like, come up with some really good things. I don't just mean like, like, super generic, like, AI things. Just give some real ideas. Because this helps a podcast host. It sees your profile say, ooh, I really like how Jordan can go into unique storytelling in a podcast like that. That's cool. I can see that topic, right?
- [23:54]
B
That was actually one of the things that when I was going through, like, building my Pod Match profile, and I saw that there was, like, a section to. I don't remember how many options you let me add. It was like 8 or 10 or something like that. It actually was such a great exercise, too, as a podcast guest, to say, what do I want to talk about? And it was so cool because it made me realize, like, oh, yeah, I can dictate the topics that I want to talk about. Instead of people saying like, oh, will you come on my podcast and talk about, you know, whatever. Because a lot of times I get analysis paralysis with, like, podcasting, because, I mean, on Best Cast, like, we talk about literally everything, so I feel like I could talk about literally everything. But there's definitely things that are more in my wheelhouse as a podcast guest, I feel like I could talk about in my sleep backwards and forwards and just get super into it. I get super excited about it. Sometimes I get asked as a guest to come on and I get asked to talk about something that I'm not really pumped about, and I feel like that really shows, too. And so having that option to say, I love talking about monetization, I love talking about podcast branding. I love talking about promoting your podcast or something like that. And that's what, like, really gets me going. It's so fun because I know that when someone reaches out to me, it's almost, like, guaranteed that they're gonna be like, hey, I actually really liked your idea about monetization through subscriptions. You wanna talk about that? And I go, absolutely. And as a guest, that makes it way more likely that I'm gonna say yes to that podcaster, too.
- [25:26]
A
You know, I'm realizing I did this round of cold emails where I just sent out emails to people I knew and said, hey, I'm thinking a lot about video pod. We just launched how to get video onto Apple Podcasts. I really want to talk about it a lot. Here's what I've been thinking about. I put three bullet points, and then I sent almost the same email to, like, 10 people. And a handful all go, yeah, I'd like for you to come on. And a handful go, that's not right for me. And it was pretty high response rate because one, most of these are people that I've met before. And two, I said, this is exactly what I want to talk about. Here's why it's timely. And here are a couple, like, different points I have about it. And it kind of takes a lot of the guesswork out of it. I think maybe some of what I'm hearing is there's a lot of guesswork. Someone just pitching like, I'm the CEO of a big company, here's my resume. And you're like, what are we going to talk about? What's the story here? But if he comes on and says, I want to talk about this exact thing that's related to what you talk about on your show, you pretty much you're going to go, yeah, sounds good to me. Let's have you on.
- [26:33]
B
Yeah.
- [26:34]
C
Yeah. For me, I remember before I had pod batch, I just use my LinkedIn profile. The problem I LinkedIn profile. And I'm not against. I've cleaned up since then. But I had my former career on there, 15 years in aerospace.
- [26:44]
B
Yeah.
- [26:45]
C
So I get booked as a guest again. It's going back six, seven years. And then I get on. People immediately be like, yo, so talk to me about this aerospace job. And y', all, I didn't want to talk about that. Like, that's not what I want to talk about while I'm there. It's already too late. And it's bad on me because I didn't give any direction. I basically said, I'd like to be on your podcast. And then the host is like, ooh research time, right? And they go find out whatever sounds interesting to them. If I should have, like, given these ideas for main focus of the episode and even potential episode titles, this helps the host say, okay, this is the direction we're gonna go in, and you've already approved it, Right. And so now they're gonna do all the research in that direction, so you don't have to worry about them being like, so tell me about this that you used to do. Right. If it comes up, it'd be a side tangent, right. It's not gonna be the main focus of it. And so for me, I remember getting frustrated when I first got on podcast guesting. Cause I'm like, I'm not talking about anything that I want to talk about ever. And it's because, oh, I had a very accomplished career in an industry I was currently working my way out of, right. And so. But I didn't give any real direction. And I think that that's the real beauty of this.
- [27:39]
B
And it's tough too, because, like, you know, being in aerospace, that's cool. That's something that people want to talk about. But I can imagine that as someone who has, like, moved out of that chapter of your life, you're like, I don't really want to visit that again. I get that a lot with, like, dreamful. I'm always like, I don't really want to talk about dreamful. Like, there's this part of me where I'm like, eh, it's. It's an easy. Like, it's just a simple podcast. And this, to me, Buzzcast is way more interesting.
- [28:05]
C
Right. Well, I got three more points here, but I have to give it a side note here. I wasn't an astronaut, skydiver, or fighter pilot, so aerospace was actually pretty boring as a parts manufacturer. But anyway, so the next point number eight is questions that you're always ready to answer. I have found that no host will ever ask these exactly who they are, but you give them some direction to understand. Like, okay, this is kind of depth we want to go in. So I think that those are really important to have. And the last two are just. If there's any noteworthy podcasts that you've been on, and I don't mean like big shows with lots of downloads. I mean shows that you felt it was a really good conversation that captured a personality, well, link to those. Just two or three is fine. And the last thing is, if you have any reviews the past host have left you, if you're new, fine. You don't have that. Yet if you have them, show them, put them on display. That way a new host can come in and say, okay, people really like this guy, right? Like, that helps them along with saying, okay, clearly someone likes this guy.
- [28:54]
B
Yeah, I love those reviews, especially when they're very specific too, because I will see sometimes, sometimes people are being, like, very polite, and they're like, it was fun, you know, And I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe it wasn't that fun. But when people are like, wow, this person, like, really blew me away with, like, how in depth their questions were. They really studied everything. They understood what I was talking about, and I felt very comfortable with them. That gives me so much confidence, both as a podcaster and as a guest. And yeah, I think that those kind of things, like, if you could have someone write like a blurb for you, even if you're not on Pod Match, just have someone write a blurb for you and, like, include it on your sheet. Right. Like, that's a good thing due too.
- [29:32]
C
Yeah.
- [29:32]
B
Okay, so once someone has, you know, put a lot of thought into building their guest profile and, you know, showing who they are, what they're comfortable with, talking about, how should they actually approach pitching a podcaster? Because, I mean, we mentioned before, a lot of podcasters will get these, like, cold emails or even, like pitch messages on, like, social media or something like that, and it's clear that someone has copied and pasted, like an AI sort of thing. And I guess really we could start out with, like, what are some big no nos? Like, if we're just gonna, like, get this out of the way, like, do not do this.
- [30:06]
C
Yeah, I mean, the very first one, I think, is the obvious one where it's, hello, name. I really enjoyed your latest episode of podcast title. I would love to be a guest because already you're like, cool. You sent this to everybody.
- [30:15]
A
Hold on, I'm typing this up real quick.
- [30:17]
C
Okay, sorry, I've been moving too fast for you. I mean, I think that's the most obvious one is, like, clearly you're using a template and you didn't even apply the template correctly or using wrong names. But to me, really, anything that feels like it's mimicking the typical AI pitch these days doesn't work for me when I get a pitch that starts off with, hey, Alex, really enjoyed the latest episode of your show, especially when you talked about X, Y, Z. I know that's just AI scraping the latest episodic data of my podcast, pulling the transcript and pulling out a takeaway.
- [30:46]
B
Yeah.
- [30:46]
C
And the rare cases that it's a person, I just feel bad because I'm like, you can't do that anymore. Like, I took that now, like, if it starts off with, hey, love the latest episode of your show, I'm already like, I know that's not a person. People don't say that anymore. Right. Like, and at one point I used to tell people, that's how you pitch. But when AI came out, I don't know if it copied my pitch word for word or anybody doing it. Right. But basically it's like, cool. This is what works. Do it. And so we have to now pivot. So my biggest suggestion is, whatever AI is doing, don't do that. Do something different.
- [31:14]
A
I think a lesson in pitching is making the answer that you want someone to give you easy. And so if you want them to say yes, then give them everything they need so that yes is the easiest answer. And that is. I do a podcast. X, Y, Z. I think you'd be a great guest where we could talk about 1, 2, 3. I've got a few times available. Here are three 30 minute blocks. Do any of these work for you? And then if you see it and you go, all right, all I've got to do is say yes and show up to Tuesday at 11:30. Oh, I have nothing at Tuesday 11:30. But when you send a hey, would you be on my podcast? What you're now asking is not will you show up? It's will you commit to a. Any amount of time? You have no idea. You don't know if it's video or audio. You don't know when it's gonna be. You don't know if there's an episode title or concept put together. So now you know, you're kind of like, there's a 50, 50 chance I'm putting all this work together.
- [32:11]
B
Yeah.
- [32:12]
A
And so it's a really easy no. Like, ah, yeah, I, I've got a lot going on with podcasts right now and I think it's just a great, like, make the answer you want as easy as possible. And that means put together everything in a package that when you hand it over, they can look at it and go, oh, gosh, it's way too easy to say yes. Yeah, I guess I'll just do it. I'll show for 30 minutes. Okay. No problem.
- [32:35]
B
Yeah.
- [32:36]
C
The position you all are taking right now is host reaching out to guests versus guests reaching out to host. When I reach out to potential guests, I do a very similar thing. I lay out all the details And I usually suggest three times. I'm like, hey, if any of these times work, let me know. If not, I'll work to your schedule. So when I'm reaching out to a guest. Absolutely. To Alvin's point, I want to be an easy yes. When it's the flip side, like, the guests reach out to the host, you can't really give suggestion on time. Sometimes I do, and I. I'm immediately turned off by that. When a guest is like, how about next Thursday? I'm like, excuse me. You know, like, it's like hanging out with a friend for the first time. They feel like, hey, I'd like to move to your house. How about next week? And you're like, what? I'll invite you over one time.
- [33:12]
A
Someone's zoom room. There's nothing wrong with that.
- [33:13]
C
Right? Come on, now.
- [33:16]
B
All right, so what's number one with building your pitch?
- [33:19]
C
Yeah, so the very first thing I always tell people is keep it short.
- [33:22]
B
Yeah.
- [33:23]
C
I just find that some people, they. They have trouble articulating what they want, so they use a lot of words. There's. There's that old, famous quote that if you need me to talk for four hours, I need no prep time. But if you need me to talk for four minutes, I need a lot of prep time. Right. Like, more or less. It's the quote. And the idea is it takes a lot of time to put something coherent together that's really short, but I think that that's what it takes. A lot of podcast hosts just straight up don't like to read. And so if you have a novel of a pitch or multiple paragraphs, a lot of them are just gonna be like, seriously. Right. Like. And don't. Don't forget, they're probably getting a dozen more right along with yours at the same time. The short one's the one that someone might click through their email or messages and say, ooh, that's short. I can read that right now. Right. And that's what you're looking for. So I think the very first step is to keep it short.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah. I think that is a huge differentiator, just right off the bat, especially to make sure that you. You're not sounding AI. Like, I think when things get a little too flowery and there's just too much, like, superfluous language, it can just kind of, like, send up those flags. Even if you did write it and you put a lot of thought into it, it can just throw up those flags. Whereas if you keep something really short and sweet, it is a Lot easier to digest as a host. And it's a lot easier to, as Alvin mentioned, like, say yes to.
- [34:33]
C
Yeah. And you know, this actually goes right into the next point, which is don't use AI. I mean, at this point, I know a lot of people like it, and some people are like air quotes here, like master prompters, like, you're going to know exactly. Like, you will never be able to know it's AI. I just. Most podcast hosts, including the ones here in this, like, we know like something about it, we just kind of can tell. And so, like, if you really want to stand out, take the extra effort to literally write it yourself, which means it's probably not gonna be as perfect. But the other day, you do want the host that's gonna bring you on to know that they're getting you. And when you've not taken any time to even write in your own voice or you've let a machine do it for you, you're gonna show up with this weird disconnect, even if you do get accepted. And so right along, keep it short, is don't use AI. Instead is this next point, which is to lead with value. And again, lead with value used to mean, hey, I listened to last episode of your show. Here's what I really enjoyed from it, because that proved that you listened. But now that is what AI does, right? And so to me, the ultimate way to lead with value now is to, is to go to Apple podcasts, leave a five star rating and review. Take a screenshot of it and start off your pitch with that saying, hey, Alvin, loved your show. I just attached a five star rating review that I left of your podcast, attach it, boom, like guilt trip them. Listen, I don't look at his guilt tripping, but you open with that. It's hard to be ignored after that, isn't it? Like, that's clearly a person did that, right? So if you listen and you leave a five star rating review, and it's real, it's authentic, it'd be a shame
- [35:52]
A
if like this became a one star review. Like, if you ignore this. I hear you, Alex.
- [35:56]
C
Oh, man. I think Alvin's tactic is you have two reviews, you don't hit submit on either. One's five star. One's one star. And just ask them, hey, which one do you want, by the way? I'm looking to be a guest.
- [36:07]
B
Red pill or the green pill? Right?
- [36:10]
A
That's terrible.
- [36:11]
C
Terrible.
- [36:12]
A
I think, Alex, if I have a catchphrase, it's gotta be something along the lines of like the Master value in my life is honesty. And when stuff comes across as, like, inauthentic and as a lie, it doesn't really matter how much I want to believe it. That I'm just like, it makes me feel so gross. And you're like, I just know you didn't listen to this. And now, like, I can't get excited about anything else in this email when someone sends you something that's like five paragraphs long. Like, nobody ever sent me a five paragraph email. Rarely in my life. How did I get one before 2023? And so, like, I don't think you wrote this whole thing.
- [36:51]
C
Yeah, right.
- [36:52]
A
It's not wrong to use AI. It's not wrong to listen to the episode before you email me. But, like, if it doesn't come across as authentic, then I don't think we're really going to have a great episode because that's what I think is valuable about podcasting. We don't really do guests on this show, but you're one of the exceptions because we like Podmatch. Jordan did this huge thing where she was trying to get on podcasts because we wanted to be able to teach it, and her takeaway was, oh, actually using Podmatch was really valuable in a way that cold emailing wasn't. And when you tried getting people through the Facebook group and you tried to pitch yourself people you knew and people you didn't know, and we're trying all these different things and it all turns out that you're like, you know what? Podmatch turned out to be quite a bit better. And so for us, it's easy then to go, all right, let's see if we can get Alex onto this episode. It's a very different feel when you come to it from, oh, we did the research, we wrote this thing. The answer was Pod Match. Now that we know that, well, let's go and actually do a Pod Match episode versus the other way around.
- [37:54]
C
Right. Yeah, thanks for that.
- [37:56]
B
I know you said leading with value, but it's almost like leading with authenticity. You mentioned in our last episode that we had you on, how you've even gone so far as to, like, take a photo of yourself with the person's book or something like that. And I know that's the host, like, pitching someone to come guest on their show, but I feel like it go the other way around too, where you, like, take a picture of you listening to the podcast and saying, like, hey, I genuinely like it. Additionally, like, leading with the value in my mind was also saying, you know, instead of being like, oh, I really enjoyed this, like, latest episode. So I think showing that you understand their audience is maybe more valuable to them. Because if you say instead of like, oh, I listened to your most recent episode, and I really enjoyed this one part, I think saying, like, hey, I actually talk about this a lot, and I know that you have a, like, big interest in this and your audience seems to really enjoy these episodes. I noticed, like, in the reviews that people were saying they really like this, and I actually specialize in this and can help out with getting more of those kind of episodes out for you,
- [38:55]
C
if that makes sense 100%, then that's the next point I was going to make right here, Jordan. I go right along with that. I just say, make a meaningful request. Like, that's how you prove that. Like, again, listen, don't. To Alvin's point, don't go leave a five starring review if it's just a tactic. Like, you actually have to hear it. You have to authentically leave something that means it's not gonna be super long and drawn out and be like, this host is a beacon of light. Like. Like, you're not gonna say that. You're gonna say, man, I really love how raw and transparent Alvin is. I can tell he's a trustworthy person. Like, if you heard that. And that's what came through, great. And that next point, Jordan, to what you're saying there is to make a meaningful request. I get pitches where there's no actual request in it, first off. Like, it's just like a book of a pitch. And I'm like, congratulations. At the end of it. Like, I don't even know what to say. I'm like, what do I say here? Right? But that would just be making a request. But meaningful to me means going to their recent backlog. So I try to load up as many as I can on one screen, and I start doing command F on my Apple device. And I look to see, have they talked about podcast guesting in any recent episodes? If it's a marketing podcast, have they talked about this? And I'll go through and look. And if I'm like, hey, you guys have never talked about podcast guesting. I know that you talk about creative marketing. That's exactly what I talk about. Is that something that might interest you for me to come on and be the guest to talk about? Like, that's meaningful. Because now the host says, wait, what? Have we. Have we really not talked about that before?
- [40:07]
B
Yeah, Right.
- [40:08]
C
Like, it clearly shows I know what your show is about and you have a gap that I can help fill. That, to me, is a meaningful request when you can really say, hey, I found the gap that you're looking for.
- [40:17]
B
Yes. It's so funny you mentioned this. And I had a flashback. My husband actually got an email from this, like, documentarian, and we had to read the email. Like, he read it a couple times and he didn't know what this person was asking for. And then I read it like three or four times and it felt very self promotional. And like you said, it was kind of like, okay, cool. Like, you sound really neat. Are you asking to, like, be on the show? Are you asking for us to watch your movie? Like, what is happening here? We had, we had zero idea.
- [40:50]
A
I think that can just come from a feeling, like, of insecurity that you want to seem exciting enough or interesting enough that somebody would have you on their show. And I think that's a misunderstanding of what makes a good interview. The good interview are two people meeting with genuine interest about a topic. And I would prefer, I mean, you mentioned Dave Jackson earlier. I would much rather have Dave Jackson on the show than Dave Ramsey or, I don't know, Dave Chappelle or any other Dave who's out there. There's a lot more famous Daves than Dave Jackson, but none of them are really talking about what you should be thinking about as an indie podcaster. And Dave Jackson is somebody who's doing that. And so he'd be a good fit for the show if he sent me a bunch of accolades and his, you know, global ranking and the interestingness of Dave's top 5%.
- [41:41]
B
Dave's top 5% Dave.
- [41:45]
A
But what really does sell me on you is, like, I've heard a bunch of shows, you've been doing podcasts about podcasting for a long time. You do them every week. You know, I've met you at these conferences and then you tell me, I'd like to talk about this new thing I'm working on. We don't need to hear anymore because I know it's going to be a good show because we're meeting on a topic. And that was probably the biggest thing I got from the survey you did. Jordan was 87.8% of people, when they're picking a guest, they're looking for topic relevance. Like, they're just. We just want somebody who's gonna stay on point and is not trying to self promo themselves. And what comes across as self promo is, hey, just want to let you know, I'm a 30 under 30 from Forbes. I have this badge on my LinkedIn. I went to this school and got this degree and I have this accolade. And you're like, okay, well, I know exactly what's gonna happen. You're gonna come on and self promo something else on my show and then be mad when I don't, like, release it.
- [42:44]
B
Yeah.
- [42:45]
A
But if you go, I really interested in this thing you like, I want to talk about it. Easy, let's get you on.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah. And Alex, I actually think that that leads me to my next question. For someone who hasn't guested on a lot of podcasts, or maybe even any podcasts yet, how can they add credibility to their pitch email without, you know, going into that self promo realm?
- [43:09]
C
Yeah. This is the last part of the pitch that I do. So like that framework I kind of gave, keep it short. Don't use AI lead with value. Make a meaningful quest. And then the last thing is offer credibility. And again, I think that credibility, like you all are kind of already saying it. Like we get it wrong.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah.
- [43:22]
C
And like, the highest form of credibility is who I know that you know or what I love that you love. And the best example I give this is, have either of you ever been cut off in traffic before? It's a dumb question, but never.
- [43:32]
A
I'm mostly the one cutting people off.
- [43:34]
C
You're usually cutting people off. Okay, whatever, Alvin.
- [43:36]
B
We have. Yes.
- [43:37]
C
So typically we all have the same response. You're like, you idiot. Right. Or maybe more aggressive words, depending on who you are. Right. But somehow you're mad. But occasionally you get cut off by somebody with a bumper sticker that really resonates with you. And when that happens, your mindset goes to. Ah, they probably didn't mean to.
- [43:53]
B
Yes.
- [43:53]
C
Right. Most of us immediately back off of our anger and we're like, they're probably a good person just having a bad day. Right. That's credibility at the highest form. So for you, it's not that, like, I've been on a hundred stages, I've got 10 books. It's just like, hey, I noticed you're a huge fan of the office you post about on your Instagram. I saw that. I post about all the time too. I love it.
- [44:10]
B
Yeah.
- [44:11]
C
Right. Now that you already have this bond and yes, we talked about the whole media one sheet or your Pod match profile. You also want to link to that. At this point, you don't include it here. You just say, by the way, if you want to see more details of what I've done, you can go here and then you link out to it, let them look that up. But nothing is like, Alvin, if you and I have shared the same stages before, be like, oh, I see that you speak at Podfest every year. I do too, right? Oh, you've done this, you've done that. Like, you're looking for that common bond. And sometimes it's as simple as going to who you both follow on Instagram. It's really easy to see who you mutually follow and be like, hey, I noticed we follow these five celebrities. Like, those are my favorite. And I saw that you follow them as well. Like, anything like that goes further than you being like, again, I've been on 100 stages, right? Like, what really matters is like, okay, there's probably some synergy here. We might actually get along and be friends. And that's the credibility that you're looking to build.
- [44:58]
B
That is such a good point.
- [45:01]
C
Like, again, this is kind of that whole idea for pitching. I think that what we just shared, I think it makes sense, right? You're looking to build that relationship with people. I guess if I was to add one more thing to it, and I kind of already tickled this across the board, but just keep it kind and casual. Like, if you're a podcaster yourself, you know how you like to be communicated to, like, don't make it overly professional because I think again, we've kind of. I don't mean for us to keep on beating like a dead horse here, right? But like, we've really gone into this point. But you can't, you can't make yourself be something you're not. And that's not what people are looking for anyway. I know that the idea of imposter syndrome comes up. We feel like, oh, but I gotta be this. But the reality is you don't. If I look at my biggest episodes I've ever had, like my most well performing episodes, most. I looked right before this, actually. I like never look at my, my stats, but I looked before this. Almost all of my top episodes were with people that if I said their names right now, no one here would have any clue who they are. And I've got some household names that have been on my show as well. And you'd be shocked. Those are kind of like my mid tier episodes. It's because people aren't looking for that. Going back to like Jordan's research that she did, they're looking for someone that can really speak to the topic that your listeners care about. Beyond that, a lot of this stuff just doesn't matter. So just be nice, be casual, be yourself. It goes a long way when you're reaching out.
- [46:08]
B
I agree with you, Alex. And I've even said this when it comes to like pitching yourself even for like sponsorships, because I think a lot of people feel like if they're pitching themselves to like a large brand or something like that, they need to be, they need to use corporate language and it needs to be very formal. And I think that's the fastest way to get flagged for spam or put directly into the trash bin. I always joke about like, you know, if you start your email with like good morrow to you sir or madam, we don't talk that way. And you have to remember that the person that you are sending an email to, that's the key word, a person, you are sending it to a person. So you have to remember that they are somebody who, you know, goes on coffee breaks and talks at the water cooler and hangs out and stuff. And they're gonna much prefer to read if you're just like, hey, I host this podcast but I've been listening to yours non stop for the last week. I love it. Let's connect. Like, that's so much more approachable.
- [47:06]
A
Main takeaway from this episode, don't start with good morrow to you sir.
- [47:10]
B
Good morrow, Jordan.
- [47:13]
C
I would love a video pitch from you and I wanted to start that way.
- [47:16]
B
The chance I require us to the
- [47:19]
A
availability of a podcast interview.
- [47:22]
C
Yes, I want to share this online. Send me the worst pitch I've ever had, Jordan. And I want to be like video format if you don't mind.
- [47:27]
B
Yes.
- [47:27]
A
Oh, the worst pitches are really just like the, the AI ones cuz they are if they didn't get caught by your spam, you wish they had.
- [47:35]
B
Yes. If you're wanting to get booked on podcast, if you haven't done this, if you haven't gotten your toes wet in the like podcast guesting pool, I hope that you take some solace in the fact that podcasters are not looking for big name guests. This is proven. Alex has the stats to back that up. We have the stats to back that up. They're just looking for someone who is going to serve their audience and it's not anything more than that. So we really love Pod batch because it organizes everything that we are talking about in one place. You can apply these tips and these practical examples into building your own guest profile, like outside of things or you know, sending cold emails. This does apply to that. But I do highly recommend that you give Podmatch a try and build out your profile and see what happens, because I know that I had a great experience with it. So thank you so much, Alex, for coming on and talking to our audience about pitching themselves to be guests on other podcasts. I think it's very helpful.
- [48:37]
C
Yeah, for sure. Seriously, an honor to be here. Thank you, guys.
- [48:43]
B
All right, let's get into fan mail. We've got a few messages here. The first is from Rich from two guys on a plane. And Rich says, we've been doing a lot of pause swaps lately with other podcasters, and it's been a really fun way to collaborate. We appear on their show, they appear on ours, and it's worked well so far. Recently, another podcaster suggested recording just one shared episode and publishing it on both podcast feeds instead of doing two separate episodes. And my initial reaction was no, because while the topics might overlap, each show has its own audience perspective and style. But I'm curious what you all think. Is sharing the same episode across two feeds a smart collaboration strategy, or does it take away from what makes each podcast unique?
- [49:29]
A
Yeah, my take, Rich, is that if you think it's not a good fit, then it's not a good fit. You know the tone for each of these two shows. I know. I've heard podcasts where they're like, oh, we did a crossover episode between, you know, two podcasts who are very similar, and it always feels a little bit off because, like, they're both kind of interviewing each other, and so there's not, like, someone who's leading and somebody's reacting. And so the roles are a little bit muddy. And you're right. The tones aren't exactly right. So I'm not a huge fan of it. Obviously, the benefit is you're only editing down one episode. You're only recording one episode, so half the production time versus having to do it for both. But if you think it's not a good fit, my take would be it's probably not a good fit.
- [50:15]
C
Yeah, Rich, go with your gut. Like, if it doesn't feel right, don't do it. I have seen some people do, like, this feed swap idea where it's like, hey, we're just gonna. I take one of your episodes, you take one of mine, which is a little bit different. I don't really like any of this, personally. I've never been a guest on a podcast and asked for the episode and put it on my show. Now, at the same time, I've had 10, maybe 15 people over the years who have been a guest on my show who said, hey, I really loved our conversation. Can I use this episode on my podcast? A practical example is Jasmine Starr has done that twice that she's been on my podcast, and all she wants is the meat of the episode. So no introduction, no outro. And I've given that to her. And what she does is she starts off saying, hey, I was had a conversation on Alex Sanfilippo's podcast called Podcasting Made Simple. It was a really good conversation. I wanted everyone here to hear it. And then she kind of talks about it a little bit and then jumps and jumps in the episode. I think that can work if the audience is exactly aligned. Now there are shows that I go on, but they wouldn't be good on my show. Right. And so, like, you have to think on that. It's not always a one size fits all. And there's sometimes where I've even said no to pod swaps because although they're a good guest for me, I'm not a good guest for them. Oh, interesting. It just doesn't always make sense. And so I think going with your gut's the best thing. And then keeping your listeners in mind, are they actually gonna get value from it or are you just trying to pump out content quickly, like what's actually gonna serve the people that are listening to your podcast?
- [51:27]
B
Yeah, I think I agree with the gut check sort of thing, and I think that that is with anything in your podcast, whether it be like having a guest on or you know, what kind of direction you should go for, like an episode topic, things like that. I have actually heard a version of this on a podcast that I actually really enjoyed. And it wasn't exactly the same topic, but it was like a topic adjacent podcast. But they said like, hey, Julia recently guested on this other podcast and it was such a fun episode that we wanted to drop it here on our feed too, and hope you enjoy it. Go listen to this podcast, you know, go follow them, things like that. And I actually really did enjoy it. And I went and listened to that podcast even though it was just topic adjacent. And so I think if it's one of those things where it just seems like a strange idea and so you don't really want to do it, but you do like the podcast, you like the podcasters, then you could experiment and try it. And if your listeners were like, hey, don't do that again, then, yeah, don't do that again. But if they say, hey, that was really cool when you did that, I'd like To see more of that, then, you know, I always think we should be open to experimentation with our podcast, too.
- [52:36]
A
All right, David. John Clark from Late Bloomer Actor reached out. Guys, I just want to say a quick thing about Apple podcast videos. I don't know if it's worth it. Number one, I lose my dynamic content from Buzzsprout. And considering my retention rate on YouTube videos is, which is less than 30% on most videos, is it worth it? I really don't know, David. I think one, I like that you're pointing out this distinction that YouTube videos, same content, it's even supposed to be more attractive because it's got a video view and your guests. I just pulled up your YouTube channel and it looks like you're doing a good job making the videos and editing it so there's something interesting to watch. It's not just like a static image. And yet you're seeing 30% over 70% retention. My feeling would be, I bet it's worth it. You're already doing all the hard work here. You're creating the video content. What we're offering is you get to put your video on the Apple podcasts. You get to do it now when you'd be really early, have a chance to get featured, more people will find it. And for your audience that already listens to you there, now they get to have this nice experience of not committing to going to find you on YouTube and being dialed into YouTube, you know, the YouTube app for hours and hours. They could just flip on, watch the video for a little bit, go, oh, cool, now I get to see David's, you know, set and what he looks like and oh, there's the guest. Oh, cool. And that's it. So I think it's worth it. It's nice to have an alternative to YouTube where you can watch video. It's a really clean experience to be able to flip through, you know, transcript audio video. And you can always, if you decide, you know, it's not really worth it for you, you could just flip back and say, yeah, I did video for a couple episodes, didn't think it was worth it. And so I went back to an audio plan and I never lost anything.
- [54:34]
B
Apple Video is so new that we just, we don't have that data on what the retention rates on Apple. But like you said, Albin, like, people can flip between the two. And so I imagine that the retention rates are going to be much better on Apple than it is on YouTube. A because YouTube is just serving up based on the algorithm. So People might be ducking out because they're not really interested in that. And on Apple, like people are already subscribed to your show so they have the intent of listening to it in the first place.
- [55:05]
A
So right Apple, they had to go to your page, click, follow, get the episodes, click play. And they're like, I'm locked in. They picked you. We're on YouTube. They were watching something else half heartedly and 20 other videos popped up in the recommended side panel. And then they clicked it, clicked it, clicked it, clicked it. And you were, you know, video 8 on this rabbit trail. And then they watched it and they only watched 30%. That's actually pretty impressive that they stuck around for 30%. Yeah, it's just a totally different audience. So my guess will be when we get data on Apple podcast video, it's gonna be very similar to Apple podcast audio because I think most of it will still be audio listens. We are supplementing that experience with the video content as well.
- [55:51]
C
I have an internal policy with my company and just the way I operate out in life is that I won't try things if it requires extra effort, if I'm already doing something that's working. But if something requires little to no effort, I'll give it a shot. And so adding video is like a click of a button. Alvin, you're laughing way too hard at this, man. But like, listen, I'm not gonna try extra effort. No, I'm just, I'm not going to, like, I know it works. I'm just gonna stick with what works. Right. And like, so I'm not willing to put in time and energy on stuff, but if there's almost no effort and I can try something new, then I'm in. Like, I'll always give a shot. So to me, to Alban's earlier point, like, try it and if it doesn't work, just revert back. Right. Like it's not gonna really take you any extra effort or time or energy. So go for it.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah, that's actually a good point. And Albin, you said that David was doing video on YouTube.
- [56:34]
A
Yes.
- [56:34]
B
So he already has it. He's got locked and loaded.
- [56:37]
A
Exactly.
- [56:37]
B
Yeah. All right, next up, we have a message from a listener in Michigan saying, I do love that you gave the ability for video, but as a podcast that works really hard on his audio, I would not want the audio from the video to be my audio for that podcast, if that makes sense.
- [56:54]
A
Yeah. So when you upload video, the audio version of your episode will be the audio from that Video. There's not a way now to separate those two out so that you have like an audio version of the episode and a video version of the episode. The way that Apple works is you give them the video, and if people are switching between video and audio, it works because that audio track is the exact same audio track for both. So listener, Michigan, it sounds pretty clear like you love audio. For audio, you would, one, have to go do all the extra work to make this video. And two, you would lose out on it being an audio first experience. I would not recommend for you to go out of your way and get on this bandwagon for video. I think that you're. You're doing some great work with audio. Let's keep it up.
- [57:43]
B
All right, well, thanks again, Alex, for coming on Buzzcast. If you guys want to check out podmatch, that is podmatch.com, i will have a link to the show notes and I'll also link to Alex's podcast, Podcasting Made Simple. I highly recommend it. It's very good. And I can actually link specifically to an episode where Tom Rossi came on and talked about building company. It was very good. So until next time, thanks for listening and keep podcasting. So I saw that you guys had an Ironman thing in Jacksonville. What's that about? Is that like, similar to like a marathon?
- [58:25]
A
An Ironman is like the marathon on steroids. It's a totally nother level.
- [58:30]
B
Alvin, did you run in the Ironman?
- [58:33]
C
Yeah. No, I saw you out there.
- [58:34]
A
Didn't Ironman? Jordan, do you know Ironman is two? I think it's like a two mile swim.
- [58:38]
C
Two and a half mile swim, isn't it?
- [58:39]
A
Two and a half mile swim, 120 miles of bike, and then you run a marathon.
- [58:45]
B
That sounds horrible. Why would anyone do that?
- [58:47]
A
Yeah, it's not.
- [58:49]
C
That is the question. Why would anybody do that?
- [58:51]
A
Alex, help me with these exact numbers. You swim like two miles, 2.4 something.
- [58:57]
C
Yeah, I thought it was like two and a half miles, but something between. Either way, it's a really far away.
- [59:02]
A
It's a long swim. It's like mere swimming, like hours, you know, hour and a half, two hours of swim or something. Then you go bike, like 120 miles. And then after all of this, then you go run a marathon for this entire thing. And so it's not like, I mean, this is the top of the top of, you know, endurance events.
- [59:26]
B
Wait, Alvin, I think you misspoke. Did you say you bike for 120 miles?
- [59:31]
A
I think I really should have Looked this up because you started asking questions about it.
- [59:35]
B
Sorry.
- [59:35]
A
Yeah, I think it's 120 mile bike ride.
- [59:38]
B
Is this like a three day event? Like you swim the first day, you bike second day.
- [59:44]
C
I think you have 17 hours to complete it. It. It's a. Okay, I'm looking up right now. This is the official ironman website. It's 112 mile bike ride. And yes, you have 17 hours to complete all of this. And like I don't. You don't take breaks or anything, I'm sure.
- [60:00]
A
And what's crazy is the Jacksonville one, which everyone was. It was in here this time. The Jacksonville one was like the run was an eight mile track. So they ran the same run. 8, 16, 24. So they ran at three and a little bit more times. So I'm like, that's not even a fun run. It's like you're ready to circle.
- [60:19]
C
Yeah. You're not even like seeing anything new.
- [60:21]
B
Have you guys ever competed in this?
- [60:23]
A
No, I. I mean it's just. It's like the pinnacle of a triathlon. Alex, you've never done it. You've never done an Ironman, have you?
- [60:30]
C
I was the first one across the finish line. Is that count as competing in it?
- [60:33]
A
What does that mean?
- [60:35]
C
Well, I was there and I went through the finish line before anybody else did. I was on an electric skateboard going about 20 miles an hour. And they're getting ready to put up like the tape because the, the real people in the race. Well, real. I mean, come on, you know, don't discredit me. Yeah, so I just.
- [60:51]
A
The athletes.
- [60:52]
C
Yeah, that's true. I just went through it. I zoomed through it and I was like, I put my hands up, I was like, first one, you know, like.
- [60:57]
A
So you like ripped out the tape?
- [60:59]
C
No, no, no, no, no, no. They don't put the tape up until the person's about to get there in case something like that.
- [61:06]
A
Participant, Right?
- [61:07]
C
Yeah, yeah. No, I did not participate. No cops chased me. It was fine. I might have been the first person to do it actually, because when I did that, nobody even like bat an eye at it. So I'm imagining all day it had been happening with people going through the finish line. Airplane. I was at first.
- [61:20]
B
And you're actually like 20.
- [61:22]
C
Everyone's like, yeah, right. Yeah, everyone's just like, oh, there's another one.
- [61:26]
A
So our sister company, Stream Care, Buzzsprout and streampear, both owned by the same parent company. Somebody worked there for years, Christina. And she has done. I Want to say this was her fifth ironman. And so there actually were a few people from buzzsprout who went out there and when people were finishing, people who'd done, like, the full race went out to see Christina. And it was like a. You start this race in the morning, like early morning and then finish late at night. The fastest person was like eight and a half hours. And I think if Alex is right, it's like 17 hour cutoff.
- [62:02]
B
Holy cow.
- [62:04]
A
Yeah. She's done five of them. Just incredible. It's a totally different level of endurance.
- [62:09]
B
You're just like free swimming, right? Like, no floaties, no life jacket, no boogie board.
- [62:15]
C
Jordan, if you're asking this, you're not. You're not ready for an ironman. If this is one of your questions,
- [62:19]
B
I might be right for an ironman. If I can have a boogie board.
- [62:22]
A
I think there's no boogie boards.
- [62:24]
C
Yeah, no boogie boards. Floaties are optional, probably.
- [62:27]
A
I know where they did the swim, and the swim is in this area of the St. John's river, which is notoriously really choppy because the river is one of the few that flows north. And the St. John's for Jacksonville is right near where the river will go out to the ocean. And so when they swam and everybody. They take like hour, hour 15 to swim this thing. When they're swimming, they're swimming, I think, with the tide. So the tide's coming in, you're swimming. You know, the tide's pushing behind you, but the river is pushing at you because you're swimming against the river. And so this whole area is just like, you're going to get a ton of chop and a bunch of waves because the tide's going one way, the river's going the other. And I would imagine this is not just like an easy. This isn't like swimming out in the ocean. This would have been a pretty intense swimming.
- [63:19]
B
Yeah. So it's. What's it called? Like, brackish water. Can you imagine how freaked out the alligators would be? Like, all these people, like, just like hundreds of people.
- [63:29]
C
There's also sharks there. So there's that, too.
- [63:32]
B
No.
- [63:33]
C
Yeah, but, I mean, not when there's that many people in the water.
- [63:35]
B
You could not pay me to get in Florida water. Like, I'm sorry, I'm probably, like, stereotyping your wildlife, but you could not pay me to get in the water and swim around.
- [63:45]
C
You'll be all right. It's not that bad. Although the first time I went out your way, I was. We were going swimming. And, like, right before we jumped in the water, I was like, hey, are there alligators? And they're like, what? They're like, no, of course there's not alligators. I was like, okay, what kind of, like, venomous snakes should I be looking out for? They're like, there's no snakes. I was like, is there anything dangerous in this water? They're like, no. I was like, oh, shoot. Okay, let's do it right. Like, just want to know what I should be mindful of here in Florida. It's like, okay, listen, sign this waiver before you get in this community pool, because there's probably alligators and snakes in the pool.
- [64:14]
B
Yeah, I heard about that. There's nothing trying to kill you in Idaho. Like, it's chill, man. Like, we don't have natural disasters. We don't have, like, anything scary. Like, the grizzlies are all up north. We do have cougars, but they're pretty chill. But, like, I remember there was, like, a reservoir near where I live here, and in high school, someone released a bunch of piranha into it, and that was the last time I ever went into that reservoir, because I was like, nope. And I haven't been in the water since.
- [64:43]
C
It's a making of, like, a budget horror movie.
- [64:45]
B
Yeah.
- [64:45]
C
You know, like, Piranha Attack is what you call it or something like that. Right.
- [64:48]
B
So scary.