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- [00:00]
Alvin
Breaking news from the Wall Street Journal. Why people who listen to podcasts suddenly feeling left out. And it starts. Jordan Blair was behind the wheel when she realized she picked the wrong podcast to listen to. Today we're touching down in the 70s to talk about Chippendales. Not these guys. These guys whose name strangely comes from this guy. What Harvey Gillian, host of Killer Stories, said in the episode intro.
- [00:25]
Kevin
Who.
- [00:26]
Alvin
What Blair recalled thinking. Then she remembered Killer Stories had just begun offering a video version. Then I realized this was not going to be any context and I was going to be annoyed, said Blair, a 35 year old from Idaho. And then this article goes on, has a very beautiful picture. Jordan has a lot of nice anecdotes about people who listen to podcasts being left out when people switch to primary video first.
- [00:52]
Kevin
I was just feeling left out just reading that article without being able to see some of the context of, like, the pictures and stuff that are in it.
- [01:00]
Jordan
Yeah, the punctuation.
- [01:01]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [01:01]
Alvin
Well, you're also missing out on some really nice ads on the side of the Wall Street Journal.
- [01:06]
Kevin
I know I did click through. Well, Jordan was nice enough to screenshot it for us, so I didn't have to fight all the ads away myself or buy the subscription version to read the article. Yeah, which I probably just outed you as like a. I don't know, it's probably some sort of crime to screenshot copyrighted, like, articles.
- [01:23]
Alvin
ChatGPT scraped every article on the web, got away with it. But if you take a screenshot of a Wall Street Journal post that you were in. Busted.
- [01:32]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [01:33]
Jordan
You know what's crazy about that is I thought that that was just like an Internet thing, and so I wasn't expecting it to be printed. And it was printed in Saturday and Sunday's edition on the front page.
- [01:43]
Kevin
Oh, really?
- [01:44]
Alvin
You were on the front page of the Wall Street Journal?
- [01:46]
Kevin
Did you get. You get a copy?
- [01:47]
Jordan
I had to buy three because my aunt, my mom wanted a copy and it was $11 a pop.
- [01:53]
Kevin
Whoa.
- [01:53]
Jordan
They're so expensive. I literally called all of the grocery stores, all of, like, the pharmacies, all of the Barnes and Nobles and, like, booksellers in the area. Apparently in Boise, you cannot buy a copy of the Wall Street Journal, so I had to order it.
- [02:09]
Alvin
I want to have one. I want us to get one and frame it and put it up in the office. That's cool.
- [02:14]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [02:15]
Kevin
Can you order them directly from the Wall Street Journal website so they come, like, rolled up, not folded like a typical newspaper?
- [02:21]
Jordan
Yeah, you can't I mean, I think that's what I did.
- [02:23]
Kevin
Oh, okay.
- [02:24]
Jordan
I bought three physical print copies of it, but if you buy it framed, it's $330, so.
- [02:30]
Kevin
So worth it.
- [02:32]
Jordan
No, it's not.
- [02:33]
Alvin
We. We can frame it ourselves. We can find a. We can get a nice frame.
- [02:36]
Kevin
We'll go to Michael's.
- [02:37]
Jordan
Well, here's the thing is, it's at the very bottom. So it's not. It's not like the main story or anything like that, but, like, my name is on the front page, but it's at the. It's at the bottom. There's, like, a little article there, and then my picture's on the inside of the main. On a booklet or whatever they call it. I don't know what the word is.
- [02:52]
Alvin
So. So how did the Wall Street Journal find you?
- [02:54]
Jordan
Reddit.
- [02:55]
Alvin
Reddit.
- [02:56]
Jordan
It was funny. I was actually talking to. I believe this was the conversation I had with Stephanie Fuccio, who's a listener of this podcast. We were talking about video podcasting and stuff, and the standards editor at Wall Street Journal reached out to me on LinkedIn, and he was like, hey, I wrote your comment on Reddit. I want to talk to you.
- [03:16]
Alvin
So that's awesome.
- [03:17]
Jordan
Kind of weird, but it's. It's kind of cool.
- [03:19]
Alvin
Well, congratulations, Jordan. There's lots of good quotes in here.
- [03:22]
Kevin
Can drop a link to the article, but are people gonna have to pay to read it?
- [03:25]
Jordan
Probably. Unless you, you know. You know, there's ways around it. I don't know.
- [03:29]
Kevin
Nah, nah. Money well spent.
- [03:31]
Jordan
Just kidding. Here we go. Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all things podcasting from the people at buzzsprout. So today we're going to be covering how to stand out in a crowded niche. And I think one of the first things that we really need to break down is the difference between a category and a niche.
- [03:55]
Alvin
I thought we were going to start talking about the difference between a niche and a niche, because there's a lot of debate about the correct pronunciation when we go to the podcasting conferences.
- [04:05]
Jordan
How do you guys say it? Because I say niche.
- [04:07]
Kevin
I say niche, I say niche. Unless I'm talking about, like, a little cabinetry of knickknacks in my kitchen.
- [04:13]
Jordan
A niche.
- [04:14]
Alvin
Yeah, Jordan, I think that's a great point. It's pretty common. You talk to somebody and they're like, oh, I'm gonna do a business podcast. But, you know, the business niche is. It's way oversaturated, I guess. Actually, I say niche, or they just say, there's so many. You know, this niche is way over saturated. And I think it mostly stems from kind of a misunderstanding of what the idea of a niche is supposed to be or even what, you know, how you position a podcast. And I hope at the end of this, when we talk through it, people feel empowered to go into what they think is oversaturated and come out with a podcast that's unique and has a unique reason for people to listen to it.
- [04:58]
Jordan
The difference between a niche and a category. So a category is like the overarching bucket that your podcast goes into, such as, like, business or parenting or true crime, things like that. And the niche is a lot narrower. So this talks about, like, the listener that you're targeting. Who are you trying to talk to? It's the format of your podcast. Is it solo? Is it interview, docu style, things like that? Also the tone of your podcast. Are you serious? Are you empathetic? Are you kind of irreverent or comedic? And then also the promise of your podcast. I feel like the promise and the payoff is a little bit harder to explain. It's basically what you're guaranteeing your listeners are going to get out of your episode by the end of it. Or what you want them to take away from the episode. Would you say that's right?
- [05:45]
Alvin
Yeah. I mean, think about this podcast. We're in this category, which it's not the most popular category, but it's podcasts about the podcasting industry. And if we just were doing a podcast about podcasting, you know, we're in a very crowded category. Uh, but when we say the listener is probably on Buzzsprout, the format is about 45 minutes. And it's the three of us. It's consistent hosts. The tone is a bit silly. We don't take ourselves too seriously. We do kind of go off topic a little bit. And the promise and payoff is if you're an indie podcaster, you should be aware of what's happening in the industry without being overwhelmed. And when we go into that much detail, I think it becomes pretty clear why you'd listen to us verse the feed or verse, you know, pod news, weekly review. Those are just different shows. And if you are able to describe the niche, then I think listeners, they have a way of knowing, oh, this is the podcast for me. I want to listen to this.
- [06:44]
Kevin
You know, we used to give talks at conferences, like, for software builders. We don't only teach about podcasting. Sometimes we teach. We go to business conferences and teach about, like, getting into the software business. And one of the principles that we talk about there is the same thing, like defining your niche in software. And a principle that we talk people through is like, defining sort of the promise of the software, sort of like the promise of the podcasting that you guys are talking about. And, like, going as far as you need to go to make sure that it is unique. So it's fine to say, like, we want to provide world class software that's super usable and friendly and helps people get their podcasts out to the world, but that's really not going to be unique. Like, we have competitors that are doing the same thing. So, like, like, how far can you go, you know, by doing X, Y and Z, or from a Floridian's experience with one person who's, you know, from Pacific Northwest, like, as far as you need to go to be able to say, like, that's unique. But then we have to deliver on that. So, like, there's nothing unique about us being from Florida or the Pacific Northwest. Like, so we want to find the things that make us unique as a software company. And that's what we're trying to help people do at those software conferences. And it's the same thing in podcasting. You want to try to define, you know, you want to be a business podcast, but, you know, delivered with comedy and unique guests from all around the world. Like, okay, I'm sure there's tons of business podcasts, but how many of them actually put a funny spin on business principles? And then how many of them also interview people, like, internationally?
- [08:09]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [08:10]
Kevin
Now you've just gone from a category that maybe has 20,000 shows in it to a category that maybe has a hundred or less shows, maybe even 50. And then you could introduce something else. And what else could you do? Oh, and we do, you know, fun business trivia or something like that.
- [08:24]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [08:25]
Kevin
Brain teasers or something like that. Like, whatever it is, like, how far do you need to go to make your niche, like, a reasonable size that you can say, hey, if that sounds like something that you would enjoy, then we're the show for you.
- [08:35]
Jordan
What I really like about what you're saying is that it's almost like an exercise. Like, it doesn't have to be what we write in our podcast description. You know, it would make sense for us to be like, this is two guys in Florida and a girl in Idaho, and we're from Buzzsprout, and, like, we believe in this and this and this. And we're trying to talk to listeners who this this, like, that doesn't have to be in your podcast description, but it can drive the content that you're creating, and it kind of, like gives you focus on what you're trying to accomplish with your podcast.
- [09:06]
Kevin
Right.
- [09:07]
Jordan
I also think that it's sort of a reframing of, like, your mindset, too, especially if you're. If you're focused on one target audience or what you want them to get out of it, or what are you trying to stick to with your podcast. And additionally, I love reframing. I do this all the time. I love reframing the idea of, like, competition versus community. Because a lot of times, like, you get into these big spaces, like, oh, my gosh, there's so much competition and really is a big community. And if you. If you reframe this kind of stuff, it's going to feel a lot less scary to go into these bigger categories, because instead of things looking, like, overcrowded or oversaturated, it's popular, it's in demand. Like, there's a reason why there's so many people here because they all love this topic, and there's a lot of listeners that love this topic, too. And I think that that can make it a little less scary if you're trying to start getting into a big category or, you know, if you're in the trenches of, like, trying to break through a big category, too, and you're kind of spinning your wheels, like, don't get disheartened just because you're in a big category.
- [10:10]
Alvin
Yeah. So if you find yourself in a large category, obviously one of the positives is lots of people already like this category. They're already listening. But we're still trying to figure out how do we make sure we don't fade into the crowd. So, like Kevin said, the more specific you can get, the better. Because then you're niching down, you're finding a smaller and smaller group, and you're positioning yourself in a way where you are unique. And so what makes you fade into the background? And Jordan, you put out this great list. Unclear audience, no real point of view, Weak promise, AI language, copying big show formats, generic guests and episodes. And I leave that one for last, because how many times have you listened now to these big interview shows? And they're just recycling, like, the same guests. Like somebody writes a book, they get on the big podcast interview circuit, and you just see them pop up in three or four of your feeds, and by the end of it, you're like, I've already heard this guy Like, I've heard him pitch the book. I even bought the book. But at some point you're like, I don't need to hear the same interview again.
- [11:18]
Jordan
I'm literally experiencing this right now. Because podcasts have taken on the mantle of like the late night show host, where there's like a circuit that you go through if you're promoting something. And there's like a brand new documentary out called S4, and it's with, like, Bob Lazar. And so Bob Lazar and this, like, filmmaker are off on all of these podcasts. They're on literally every single podcast I listen to. And it's like a two hour episode of, like, them rehashing the exact same stuff and talking about the documentary. And I'm just like.
- [11:49]
Alvin
And there's interviewers who they just are not doing a ton of work. You could tell, because they're like, oh, tell me about the exact same story I just heard you tell on a different podcast. Then they've gone and heard it and they go, oh, that's a good story. Let's make sure we get our version of it, which is the same story, just with a different interviewer asking it. All right, so yesterday when Jordan and I talked about this, one of the things, Kevin, that I thought would be really fun. We picked out what seems like a crowded category and found five podcasts which you can describe the same way with the same broad strokes. And then we kind of did a deep dive into how are these shows actually different? How did they niche down and how did they come up with something that was unique?
- [12:30]
Kevin
Okay, do I have a part to play in this?
- [12:32]
Alvin
Uh, you do running commentary, feedback, and I even got a game for you.
- [12:37]
Kevin
Okay.
- [12:38]
Jordan
Okay, Alvin, so you took the topic of business.
- [12:42]
Alvin
I went even a little tighter. I went business stories. So I don't want current event business. These aren't new shows. I went and just was like, you know, who tells the stories of businesses and how are these different? And I went down the top list and picked out ones I specifically had already listened to. How I Built this with Guy Raz, Acquired Founders, Business wars and Masters of Scale. And these are all shows that you could describe as they're in a very crowded category, they're telling the same stories of businesses, and all of them could talk about similar businesses. But then when I start pulling them apart by topic, audience format, tone and payoff, kind of that promise, they start looking very different.
- [13:31]
Kevin
Yes.
- [13:32]
Alvin
So how I built this, you've got Guy Raz interviewing founders for about 45 minutes and it's pretty much, if you go through these episodes, it's very driven by the founder story. They're personal, they're emotional, you know, like, how did you do X? And it's a lot of, oh, here's a fun anecdote, but also, like, a tough moment where we thought the business was going to fail. I'm really thinking about. We listen to that one about Southwest. The founder of Southwest.
- [14:02]
Kevin
Sure. Yeah.
- [14:03]
Alvin
And you're just hearing so much of the. Here's what the internal state was like for me as I went through, you know, all the up and ups and downs. And there's not a lot about strategy. They don't. They sometimes will reference competition, but it's pretty much driven by the person.
- [14:20]
Kevin
Yeah. And I would add to that, I think, all of my favorite episodes of How I Built this. Anyway, they're, like you said, maybe 45 minutes, but there's two, three really deep stories that they jump into. Here's where the business almost failed. Here's how we got the capital to stay alive. Here's a moment where everything changed. An unlock for the business. And, like, those three things will be like 10 minutes each. It's like 30 minutes of content. And then all the rest of it, like, they move pretty quickly just to get to the next deep story. And then they go really deep, and then they move pretty quickly, and then they, like, you're 10 years later, they get to another big event.
- [14:54]
Alvin
Yeah.
- [14:55]
Kevin
So they cover, like, you know, 20, 30 years of business in 45 minutes. But it's really just centered around these, like, massively deep and entertaining and super interesting stories.
- [15:05]
Alvin
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. That they're really picking out two, three deep stories that kind of are like, there's the scaffolding of the whole business, but with two or three. Okay, these are 10, 15 minute. They hook you.
- [15:18]
Kevin
Yep.
- [15:18]
Alvin
You hear it.
- [15:19]
Kevin
And the dramatic music kicks in.
- [15:22]
Alvin
Yep.
- [15:23]
Jordan
It's so funny. Cause I haven't listened to How I built this. So my assumption was this is step by step how I built this business. And now I'm hearing there's actually a lot more story and emotion driving these episodes. And they're kind of skipping over the instructional version and just jumping into, like, when things got really tough, like when situations got sticky, and then, like, sort of talking through how it resolved, whether it be, like, organically or, you know, they took. They had to make hard decisions or whatever it is.
- [15:53]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [15:54]
Jordan
And I think that's really cool.
- [15:55]
Alvin
Yeah. Of all of these, how I built this one, the name is a great name, but it isn't perfectly describing. You know, I think your point is right. It's not step by step frameworks, it's these stories. It's also the one that of these five feels the most like buzzcast, that we end up being pretty story driven. And hey, here's the internal emotional state of what it's like to be a creator and how you work through it. A very different show is acquired. So Ben and David, two hosts, they're doing the deepest dive you can get. It's like they're doing hardcore history about businesses. Four hour episodes. They're long, they're detailed, they're very analytical. They're often talking about like, here's why the business worked. And it's not just personality of the founder. First episode of theirs I ever listened to is about, I think, Google Maps and I had no idea. You know, I'm thinking it's going to be like, oh, Google Maps, they launched in this year and here's what they did. And it's like seven iterations of all the people who kind of culminate in starting Google Maps and how each of them were pieces of different acquisitions. And it's just so detailed, it's so well researched that you feel like I just got a audiobook that just felt a bit more conversational than normal.
- [17:14]
Kevin
Yes. I think if I had to describe acquired in my own terms as succinctly as possible, I would say it's like somebody wrote a full business book. Like we can just take the example that you just used of like Google Maps, how it was made, whatever, and there's like a thousand page book on this subject. Then acquired is the CliffsNotes version of that. What's the new version of Spark Notes? People use Spark Notes and CliffsNotes. It is still long, but it is all the detail, it's like all the takeaways. Sometimes I have a hard time. I'm not saying it's not a good podcast. It is a good podcast, but I have a hard time listening to it because I have to be in the right mood. It's not necessarily like a relaxing or enjoyable listen, it's an educational listen. I feel like I'm in college lecture mode. Right. And I get annoyed if I just zone out for two or three exits down the highway. And then I'm like, oh, I just missed all of that. And then like, you know, like, I gotta like back up. But it really is an educational take on it as opposed to like how I built this still business Lessons and practical stuff that you can take, but in a much more entertaining format.
- [18:17]
Alvin
Yeah.
- [18:17]
Kevin
And a light listen.
- [18:18]
Jordan
You know what I like about how Acquired is doing this is they're kind of going against the grain of everything that you learn, you need do to make your podcast successful. You know, they take forever to release an episode. When they do, it's just like this, like, huge, clunky mass of a podcast episode. You know what I mean? Like, it's just dense, and it's just like this brick lays down, and then like, you wait a few more months for it. And I think that that's a really good example of a podcast that is finding their own way in a very broad category. I mean, especially with the format.
- [18:51]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [18:52]
Alvin
So third I looked at was founders. David Senra does the show by himself, maybe 40, 90 minutes. I think he's now doing another podcast where he does do interviews, but all of them are pretty much built from a biography. And he takes this podcast so seriously. I've heard him give advice on how to start a podcast, and one of the things he says is like, take it a hundred times more seriously than you're taking it. Lock in. And if you listen to him, it's just like the most serious you could take a podcast. And so it either very your type, or it's not your type and it's not your style. I mean, it's often about like, here's the mindsets of a founder, here's the habits of a founder, here's the principles that they embodied. There's less of the storytelling and less of the conversation. It feels like this is somebody who just read eight books about John D. Rockefeller, and now I'm telling you what it was like to be him and exactly what he was doing so that you can do the same. It's just like, if you're going to listen to us, you need to have a level of intensity that is a bit higher. And so it fits perfectly for some. And for other people, they hear it and they're three minutes in, they go, this isn't for me. And I think that is one of the hallmarks of a successful show is that pretty quickly people are opting in really hard or opting out just as quickly.
- [20:24]
Kevin
Yeah, I like the unique spin on it. This has never. I've never listened to an episode of this. It's never caught my attention. I think in general, I'm a little bit skeptical of things like this. Like, I prefer if people are still living anyway. Like, why not have them on the show? Why not have them be a part of telling their own story. I don't necessarily love. Like, we're just going to do a whole bunch of research and stuff, and then we're going to tell you, like, how we interpret that. And I'm.
- [20:46]
Alvin
I don't know.
- [20:46]
Kevin
Not for me. But like you said, I think that's the sign of a quality show. It's, like, going to resonate with people immediately, or some people. It's not. Like, one of my favorite television shows is Curb youb Enthusiasm, and I've told dozens of people, please watch this. I would love to laugh about it and talk about episodes with you. And then they come back to me the next week. They're like, yeah, I tried episode one. It's terrible. How do you like that? So it doesn't have to be for everybody, but one of the things that can make something really resonate, like, with the people it resonates with, doesn't have to be everybody, but with the people it resonates with, they're passionate about it.
- [21:17]
Jordan
Mm.
- [21:19]
Alvin
I think that Curb is one of the reason Kevin and I are good friends, because there's only one person in my life who's liked Curb your Enthusiasm as much as I do, and it's Kevin. I share with people all the time. I like you like Seinfeld. This is Seinfeld cranked up a couple notches, and they're like, no, this is so much worse. This is, like, makes me uncomfortable. And I'm like, yes, that's what's good. It's ratcheting it up the whole episode. And then there's a release at the end. And sometimes the releases that. It got so much worse, they're like, yeah, I was just stressed out the whole time. Like, well, I was laughing the whole time, just loving every minute of it, seeing how the show is going to keep getting worse. But, yeah, it's. It's for some, not for others. I would say for founders. Kevin, he intentionally does pick people who have passed away and so that he can try to see less of the PR spin in a way that, like, some of Steve Jobs legacy wasn't fully written until maybe 10 years after his death. You get a bit of that with just everybody. And so I think that's part of what he's trying to do with founders.
- [22:23]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Jordan
All right, what's next?
- [22:25]
Alvin
Next is business wars. And business wars, as the title would kind of indicate, it's about competition. Two companies going head to head, driven by the conflict. 35 minutes. Wait.
- [22:38]
Kevin
Wait. 35 minutes. But almost every single one of their, like, business war series is at least two parts.
- [22:43]
Alvin
Yes, that's right. So they're split into 35 minute episodes that are multi part.
- [22:49]
Kevin
Yeah, they do a good job. They always leave you with a cliffhanger, so you got to listen to the next one.
- [22:53]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [22:53]
Alvin
Another thing I noticed there was Covid. This is another business story podcast hosted by someone named David. So if you want to bust into this category, three out of the five have a David host.
- [23:06]
Jordan
David. I actually got a recommendation to listen to the Dungeons and Dragons season by Tom Rossi, and it was a solid recommendation. I was really surprised and a little bit delighted by their little, like, audio dramatizations.
- [23:23]
Alvin
No.
- [23:24]
Kevin
Oh, my gosh. That's my commentary on this. As soon as Albin mentioned it, I was like, the audio dramatization segments are so cheesy.
- [23:32]
Jordan
I was eating it up.
- [23:35]
Alvin
Another example of it is the things that are going to be divisive that will make your show a niche.
- [23:41]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [23:42]
Alvin
Like if there's not going to be someone who says, no way. I do not like how intense this guy is. I do not like how long these episodes are. I don't like how they leave me with a cliffhanger. And they do the cheesy commentaries. If you don't have somebody saying, I don't like it, it's actually going to be a little bit hard to find people who are saying, no. That's actually the part that I love. Like, everybody, we're all different.
- [24:06]
Kevin
You know, I actually remember now when I decided that I really could not take these little audio dramatizations that they do. And it's at the end of the episode they have a legal disclaimer that says that the dramatizations are done by, you know, voice actors and they're not the real people. And I'm like, no one thought that they were the real people. Okay. It was so ridiculous that some lawyer made you put that at the end of your podcast. And now anytime they do one, I'm just like, oh, I have to like, hit the fast forward button. I can't listen to the voice actors reenact the scene in a hotel room at night, talking about, did you hide the files? Yes, I hid all of the files. No one will ever find out that we did this awful business thing. Okay, good work. Now let's go down to the bar.
- [24:47]
Alvin
Not only did they find out about it, they put it in a podcast.
- [24:51]
Kevin
Yes.
- [24:52]
Alvin
And then we reenacted your voices.
- [24:54]
Kevin
I happened to record this part of the conversation and Business wars just got a hold of it.
- [25:00]
Alvin
That was a terrible decision to record all of our shady business deals. And then, last but not least, masters of scale. It's the Reid Hoffman podcast, 20, 40 minutes long. There's sometimes other interviewers, but it's mostly Reid Hoffman from Netflix. It's a podcast that's really about growth. So companies that went from small to big, positive growth. It's less about the early story, it's less about the leadership. It's not about the founder. It's about scaling and what works at each level as you're leveling up the company. So you go from small mom and pop, and at the end you're this giant, you know, McDonald's. No company starts off as McDonald's. They started off as a small company and they had to step their way up. And so that's what mastery of scale is doing. And again, if you are in the target market, like, you want to know, how do I take this business that's been doing well as a company, you know, a restaurant of one, you know, single location, how do I move my way up? This is the podcast for you.
- [26:12]
Jordan
Do they do it similar to, like Land of the Giants, where it's sort of like a telling of how it happened, or is it more similar to like a how to? Like, here's some takeaways that you can take from how this person accomplished whatever.
- [26:27]
Kevin
Here's what I like about Land of the Giants, and I think that's an another business podcast worth mentioning because it's very similar to one of the ones that we just talked about, which is Business Wars. But Business wars gives you sort of like the entertained again with their, like, funny little reenactments and stuff. They give you the entertainment side of two businesses battling it out. And they do that, like in an hour. But if you want more depth and I think with just as much entertainment value, just sort of the full, full story, like in much greater detail and without the silly, dramatic reenactments. Then you have Land of the Giants, which the businesses they cover, as opposed to Business wars, are the biggest businesses in the world. They're the Googles and the Facebooks and the Netflix and Disney. And so they don't get into, like, one of the Business Wars. Podcast just did, like, Apple music versus Spotify and just talking about the music side of Apple's business. So they. They didn't cover Apple in the full glory of everything that is Apple, which is massive. They just said, let's just do Apple music and let's compare that to Spotify. Well, Land of the Giants would like do like 10 episode season just on Apple or just on Google or just Netflix or something like that. So again, these podcasts seem like they are direct competitors, but once you dig into them, they're wildly different and they probably. They definitely have some audience overlap. Like, I listen to both of those shows, but one is going to resonate more with a particular audience than another. Like, I definitely find Land of the Giants much more interesting because that's just. That world is completely foreign to me. So I want to hear as much detail as possible about. I've never worked in a big corporate environment with, you know, billions of dollars on the line with every decision that you make and stuff like that. Business wars, a little bit more kind of my day to day. And so it's just not as, I don't know, like I listen to them both, but I get really excited when a new season of Land of the Giants comes out.
- [28:18]
Alvin
Yeah, I should have kept Land of the Giants in here. I feel like I should have put that in and maybe left, I don't know. Masters of Scale out, which is a little bit further out. I like that they do. You know, these long seasons I really liked. Think I listened to the one on Twitter. And they kind of cut. Each episode is like 40 minutes and it's like one story of the larger story.
- [28:41]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [28:41]
Alvin
And it's, it's a bit more journalistic, it's a bit more how it impacts culture and society. So it's addressing big questions, but told through the story of a single business. Yeah. Land of the Giants, that was another good one to include here.
- [28:55]
Jordan
I mean, it's by Vox and I don't know if you've seen Vox documentaries, but they are so well produced. They're kind of like gritty, but also like very cinematic at the same time. And like, it's just, it's, it's such a fascinating look into everything that they are investigating or just covering in an episode. I love Lay on the Giants and I'm not even interested in business, but I find it horrendously fascinating and I think it's really well produced. It's just, It's a great podcast.
- [29:25]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [29:25]
Alvin
All right, so now that we've gone through these, the five that I gave you, Masters of Scale, Business Wars, Founders Acquired, How I Built this, we're going to play a game, okay. Where I'm going to describe a podcast episode about the company Starbucks, and you're going to tell me which of these five business story podcasts this is their episode. They're all same, and I think that you're going to be able to tell which is which.
- [29:51]
Jordan
I love this. I'm really excited to kind of see how each podcast would approach the exact same topic in a different way. This is fun.
- [30:01]
Alvin
All right, buzz in when you have the answer.
- [30:04]
Kevin
Okay.
- [30:04]
Alvin
All right. Episode that I just downloaded to the feed. It's a lesson filled look at Howard Schultz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks focused on his beliefs, habits, and the decisions that shaped the company that he built.
- [30:18]
Jordan
All right, Jordan, since it's a founder story, that sounds like how I built this to me. Oh, am I wrong?
- [30:26]
Alvin
So close.
- [30:26]
Jordan
Ah.
- [30:28]
Kevin
But no, Kevin, I'm gonna go with founders. I'm gonna piggyback off Jordan's answer and just go with founders.
- [30:39]
Alvin
Yes. I. I wrote this one to be founders because really, founders will talk about the individual, like, processes of their life, their habits, the way they think, and how it shaped the company they built. It's not as emotionally driven as maybe how I built this.
- [30:54]
Kevin
Okay, Duh. All right, I nailed that one.
- [30:57]
Alvin
It's one to zero. All right, here's. This is the story of Starbucks versus McDonald's. This episode is centered on the battle for breakfast.
- [31:06]
Jordan
Dang it.
- [31:07]
Alvin
And coffee market share. Jordan, I heard you buzz.
- [31:09]
Jordan
Actually, Kevin first.
- [31:10]
Alvin
I said. I said buzz, buzz, buzz. All right, Kevin, what is it?
- [31:14]
Kevin
This is Business Wars.
- [31:15]
Alvin
This is Business Wars. The battle for breakfast.
- [31:20]
Jordan
Damn. Damn.
- [31:21]
Alvin
All right, episode three that I downloaded to my feed. Howard Schultz interview through how a small coffee company became a global brand.
- [31:30]
Kevin
Buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz.
- [31:32]
Jordan
Dang it.
- [31:33]
Alvin
I think we gotta let Jordan. I think Jordan got you just by a little bit on this one.
- [31:37]
Kevin
Kevin said, buzz, buzz, buzz.
- [31:40]
Jordan
You're trying so hard to give it to me, Alvin.
- [31:42]
Kevin
This is a biased judge. This is masters of scale.
- [31:49]
Alvin
Oh, now. Now you're. Now you're pitching it. Are you really sandbagging or was that your bet?
- [31:54]
Kevin
That was my bet. I mean, it's either that or. Nope.
- [31:57]
Alvin
You gotta. You gotta listen. Howard Schultz interview about how a small company became a global brand with a focus on the risks, doubts, and big turning points along the way.
- [32:09]
Jordan
Oh, I thought it was how I built this, but I wasn't.
- [32:12]
Alvin
You are correct.
- [32:13]
Jordan
Yes.
- [32:15]
Kevin
You didn't say anything about, like, with. With a focus on storytelling or.
- [32:20]
Alvin
Oh, but the doubts, that's the big thing is like, how it's an interview with Howard Schultz.
- [32:25]
Jordan
There's context clues.
- [32:26]
Alvin
So you knew. It's. It's founder led, but it's also him talking about the Risks and doubts and what was going on in his heart.
- [32:32]
Kevin
All right, fine. We can give it to Jordan, but I don't like the. I don't like that question. Next. This is how I play trivia. Also, if I get it wrong, it's because the whoever's running the trivia asked the question incorrectly.
- [32:44]
Alvin
All right, two to one. Question four. A deep strategic breakdown of how Starbucks built a premium brand. Jordan Acquired. It's acquired. Yes.
- [32:55]
Jordan
Yes. Pulling ahead. So we're two, two now. So this is the tiebreaker. Okay.
- [33:03]
Kevin
Okay.
- [33:04]
Jordan
All right.
- [33:04]
Kevin
Ready?
- [33:05]
Alvin
A practical buzz, buzz, buzz.
- [33:07]
Kevin
Masters of skill.
- [33:08]
Alvin
I was wondering, what do you do for the win?
- [33:11]
Jordan
It didn't even occur to me that he went do, like, there's only five
- [33:18]
Kevin
strategy prevails.
- [33:21]
Alvin
I was like, I'm just so it's gonna figure out that I. I've. I've only left one. No, you're right, Kevin. It was masters of scale.
- [33:31]
Jordan
All right, how is the masters of scale approach that. I want to hear it.
- [33:35]
Alvin
Still a practical conversation about how Starbucks grew from a small concept into a massive company and what leaders can learn from that process.
- [33:46]
Kevin
Yeah, obviously, Masters of scale.
- [33:49]
Alvin
In retrospect, I could have designed this. This game a little bit better. But thank you both for playing. Congratulations, Kevin, With a strong win.
- [34:00]
Jordan
All right, so now that we've covered all these different podcasts, I mean, honestly, like, vastly different podcasts in the exact same category, what can our listeners take away from this? I really think that you kind of just start with, like, who is this for? You know, think about who you're trying to target, who are you trying to reach? What kind of person are you trying to impact in their daily life? Things like that.
- [34:22]
Kevin
Yeah, And I would like the idea of. Of writing this down.
- [34:25]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [34:26]
Kevin
And refining it over time. Just because you wrote it down doesn't mean that you can't ever change it or make it better or improve it, but writing it down for the purpose of reminding yourself. If it's just you doing the podcast, just reminding yourself. If it's you and co hosts reminding your co hosts, oftentimes we do find ourselves with, like, an outline for buzzcast that one of us will say, you know what? Maybe the core idea is solid, but the way we're approaching it is not in line with our audience. And we'll have to sit down and talk through and remind ourselves of who we're creating this show for. Especially if you don't have co hosts or other people working with you on the podcast to help you remember, then especially write it. Down for yourself to remind yourself.
- [35:02]
Jordan
Another thing that is a huge differentiator between different niches in a podcasting category is the podcast format. So we covered this with, like, how I built this acquired Land of the Giants and founders, like, you can have a niche within the format. So, like, interview. Are you a solo podcast? Are you doing a deep dive? Is this, like, documentary style? Like Land of the Giants? Is this a roundtable discussion, listener Q and A? Like a recap, sort of podcast breakdown, case studies, things like that? If you really focus in on those formats, that format can actually become part of your niche, too.
- [35:39]
Kevin
Yeah, until you said them all, I didn't even remember how many different formats you can have for a podcast.
- [35:45]
Jordan
Yeah, there's so many. I'd even. I didn't even say audio drama. That was one of the things that we talked about.
- [35:50]
Kevin
Thank goodness we don't need more of that. No offense to our audio drama podcasters out there.
- [35:56]
Jordan
That's right.
- [35:57]
Kevin
Just not for me. But you've done something good because you have lovers and haters.
- [36:01]
Alvin
I thought you were saying Nisha's taken trying to protect it for Jordan.
- [36:04]
Kevin
Oh, no.
- [36:06]
Alvin
All right. One takeaway I have is that tone matters more than you think. And I noticed this because I subscribed to lots of podcasts, and I listened to different podcasts at different times, and it's kind of what Kevin said. Sometimes if you're going to listen to Acquired, I feel like I almost need to watch it or have it playing in a browser, and I'm taking notes and typing as I'm listening.
- [36:30]
Kevin
Right. It's an audio format, but it, like, demands your full attention.
- [36:33]
Alvin
Right. And I need to be almost, like, typing and engaging with it actively. But some of my favorite podcasts of all time are they're just funny. They're a bit irreverent. They're not taking everything too seriously. I used to listen to this crypto podcast years ago that I just loved because they would do these deep dives and they'd figure out the truth of, like, what some coin is trying to do. But they were also just talking about it. Like, this is the most absurd thing that everyone's investing millions of dollars into, like, crypto coins. This makes no sense. And they're just laughing the whole time and enjoying it. And I didn't want to listen to a crypto podcast. I just want to listen to those two guys go through what's happening on the Internet. And so I think, like, tone really matters. And this can be serious or funny. It can be Warm. It can be analytical. You can be personal, but you can be polished. You can be calm or intense, maybe like the founders guy, compassionate or irreverent. Like there's so many different ways you can take this. And probably the tone that's going to match is the tone that the hosts have naturally, you know. So how are you approaching this and are you going to approach this subject matter different than the podcasts that you are listening to in your category?
- [37:52]
Jordan
Well, and your tone might change over time. As podcasters, as we get used to things and we get acquainted with our listener base and we get acquainted with how our podcast is growing and evolving and things like that, like your tone and the personality that you are behind the mic might evolve as well. And sometimes you have to embrace that a little bit. I was thinking about James and Sam from Pod News Weekly Review. I remember when they first started that podcast together, it felt very like newsy and they would just kind of like break things down. And I've noticed in recent episodes I'm hearing a lot more jokes, I'm hearing a lot of like cheeky back and forth and little quips and stuff like that. And it's actually making the podcast like much more enjoyable for me. And I, I love it because I'm getting glimpses of their personalities that I wasn't really getting at like the beginning of their podcast. And so that's another thing is like maybe your, your niche and as you get comfortable with like your listeners and you get comfortable behind the mic, like your tone might change a little bit. Another thing that I think would be good to write down like Kevin recommended, is what kind of payoff your podcast is going to give to the listener. I think that this goal, like the carrot at the end of the stick, can really drive your niche. So are you trying to offer up inspiration, practical advice? Are you just entertaining? Is it like an edutainment sort of thing? Are you just providing them clarity on a subject? Are you trying to offer emotional connection and a feeling of like, friendship or a feeling of belonging to a community that they might not have in their like normal day to day lives? Things like that can really help drive, like how you create content, how you approach interviews, how you talk to your listeners and your call to actions.
- [39:38]
Kevin
It's so important. And I think podcasts fall down on this all the time. If there's one thing I see podcasts continually fall down on, it kind of feels like this to me as a listener. I think that oftentimes I'm listening to podcasts For a specific reason. I'll call one out because I don't think these guys listen to our show. But dithering. Jordan, you don't listen to this. Albin, you listen to this. Do you feel like dithering oftentimes misses the mark of the promise, which is, I want to hear two guys who are in tech journalism give sort of their deep thoughts around a specific topic and sometimes they get so distracted by, like, their personal connection with each other and their friendship. They talk about sports a lot. They talk about articles that the other one has written, and then they're talking about their writing style and should I have written about that or nobody? I should have written about that. And all of a sudden 15 minutes is up, which the podcast is 15 minutes to talk about this one thing. And I felt like, guys, you gave me two minutes of that. And, and I'm here for the tech stuff, for the tech insight from these two, you know, great journalistic minds in tech. And I heard about, you know, what's going on in the NBA, and I heard about your article wasn't as fully fleshed out as you wished it was and something. So it's like, it is like edutainment, but if they error, they err on the side of the entertainment side, not the education side. And I'm really there for the education side.
- [40:53]
Alvin
It's funny that that is your example, because I have the exact opposite feeling from that show. I love every time they talk about baseball, they're like, I know people don't want to hear about baseball. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be so much a better episode because there's like three minutes of baseball takes here and they're laughing.
- [41:10]
Kevin
I don't mind their baseball takes. I hate their basketball takes. But why don't they just sell a baseball podcast then?
- [41:15]
Jordan
I'd buy that, given I feel like you're describing our podcast.
- [41:20]
Alvin
That's true.
- [41:21]
Kevin
It's totally fine. I still listen. I just, I'm there for a specific reason. And what's great is that we have an audience member here who's there for another reason, and he's getting what he wants. And I'm getting enough of what I want that I keep paying. Like you should know, this is a pay only, subscription only podcast. You can't listen to it for free.
- [41:37]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [41:38]
Kevin
And so it's like. And it's not cheap. I think it's, it's like $8 now a month or something. Anyway. So, yeah, even if you annoy your audience, if, if they like your personality enough, they'll probably still stick around. Maybe that's the lesson. Deliver on your promise. Like, I'm paying you $8 a month to hear your tech stuff.
- [41:53]
Alvin
I think the last takeaway I have is it's worth doing your research to look for gaps in your category. And if you were approaching this business stories category, you need to go and do the research that we did today and kind of try to dissect what are the top shows, what do they sound like and what's missing. You know, you could listen to and go, you know, there's not many stories told by the people who actually have the experience themselves. You know, I'd like the. I want the post to be somebody who's already built the business, or I want the tone to be more silly, or I'm hoping for the format to be a little bit tighter. You know, give me 15 minute breakdowns of big businesses. So I learned some anecdotes. When you listen to them, like, what do you wish they would do differently? That's probably one of those five things that you would tweak, you know, whether it be the format or the hosts or the length or the takeaways, when you listen to more, you can identify the gaps and you're probably representative of an underserved area in the market.
- [43:00]
Kevin
Can I put a word of caution around this?
- [43:02]
Alvin
Yes.
- [43:02]
Kevin
Okay. I don't think Albin intends for anyone to listen to what he just said and walk away with, like, find a gap in the space and then fill it, even if it's not something that aligns with your talents or interests, skills, knowledge base, whatever. I think what he's saying is that it all has to come together. You want to be able to create a new business podcast? Go look what business podcast exists. Figure out what you're interested in. Figure out, is there an opportunity here that's unserved? Is there a promise that, like, you as a listener are looking for, that none of these things are delivering, that you could deliver. But don't just, like, force it. Don't just be like, oh, here's a gap in the market. I know nothing about this gap. The new comedic spin on hot takes in the news. But I'm not a comic, but I can do it. I'll make it work. It's going to be terrible.
- [43:50]
Alvin
Yeah. If I went in and the gaps I identified were the business failures, and I want to have like a silly, irreverent, like, look, check out these ridiculous business failures that doesn't feel true to who I am. And so I wouldn't shoehorn myself into it.
- [44:06]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [44:07]
Alvin
I would approach it from. Listen to them and listen to, like, what inside of you is going, ah, they could have done that better. Yeah, they could have stuck on topic more. You know what? I wish that they pursued that story harder. You know, I'm kind of tired of the deep dives for two hours, and I feel stressed out that I'm going to miss an important detail. What I want is more emotionally driven content. And those are the things that are in you that you're probably going to naturally do anyway. And you're going to see, like, oh, there is a bit of a niche that here for somebody like me, because I'm noticing what I really want them to be doing.
- [44:43]
Jordan
I think that this step would be a lot harder for people who don't listen to podcasts. You know, if you're trying to start a podcast and you don't listen to podcasts, you might struggle to find what things you would do a little bit differently. I really think it's so important to listen. It reminds me of. I can't remember exactly who said it. I think it was Stephen King who said that in order to be a writer, you must first be a reader.
- [45:04]
Alvin
Yes, that's Stephen King.
- [45:06]
Jordan
Okay, great.
- [45:07]
Kevin
I'm pretty sure I've said that before, too.
- [45:09]
Alvin
Yeah, it was actually Stephen King quoting Kevin.
- [45:12]
Jordan
Yeah. Kevin Finn once said.
- [45:13]
Kevin
I mean, he might have said it first, he might have squeezed it in, but I've definitely said that.
- [45:18]
Jordan
But I think the same goes for podcasting. I think in order to be a really good podcaster and know what you like, what you would want to listen to, you gotta listen to podcasts, and it makes a huge difference.
- [45:30]
Kevin
Surprisingly, we. And it's happened more than once. We've run into people at podcast conferences where we talk to them about their podcast and their show, and then we start asking them, oh, have you heard this one? Have you heard this podcast? You heard this one? They say, like, well, actually, I don't listen to very many podcasts. And, like, that's concerning. It's. It's. I guess it's possible to be successful without listening to podcasts, but it's definitely not the easiest path forward.
- [45:56]
Jordan
Let's get into some fan mail. First up, we have a message from Dave Jackson at school podcasting.
- [46:02]
Kevin
Hey, guys. Dave Jackson, just heard you talk about how buzzsprout ads aren't always effective because the promo was bad. I would love any of you or all of you. That'd be wild. To if you ever want to do an episode on this, on the School of Podcasting, or, of course, you could do it on Buzzcast.
- [46:19]
Alvin
I'd love to hear what makes a good promo.
- [46:21]
Jordan
All right, Dave, your offer to come on School of Podcasting, I will take you up on that happily. If Dave Jackson offers you a position on his podcast, you do not turn it down.
- [46:33]
Kevin
Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot there. I know we touched on it when we mentioned the idea that promos could be more effective if you put more time into your promo. And I think we covered a few tips, like making sure you say the name of your podcast and maybe repeating it again at the end and then talking about some of the unique differentiators, things that we covered in this episode. Like, it'd be a great place once you go through the exercise of actually writing all these things down, figuring out how to form that into a great promo for your episode.
- [46:59]
Jordan
Yeah.
- [46:59]
Kevin
But there's definitely a lot more meat on that bone. And you're right. It could make a great episode.
- [47:03]
Jordan
Actually, we could do both promos and trailers in the same episode too. Cause I get a lot of questions about trailers as well. So that'd be kind of neat to put those two together, since they're a little bit similar.
- [47:13]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [47:13]
Alvin
Yeah. And I think it's very similar to what we've talked about in this show. If you're writing down who's the audience? What's the takeaway? What's the tone? What's the format? You're going to answer a lot of the questions around. How do you tell people this is the podcast you want to listen to in 30 seconds to a minute long.
- [47:30]
Jordan
Next up, we have a message from Sunny from Ugly Quacking Duck.
- [47:35]
Alvin
Hello, everyone.
- [47:36]
Kevin
This is Sunny from the Ugly Quacking Duck podcast. Just wanted to take a minute, say thank you for the latest update. That voicemail button should make a big difference, so keep up the good work. Keep podcasting.
- [47:53]
Jordan
Oh, I hear somebody coming.
- [47:55]
Kevin
What are you doing, Sonny? Who are you talking to?
- [47:58]
Alvin
That's awesome. What. What is this Ugly Quacking Duck podcast?
- [48:03]
Kevin
When we got that voicemail, I had to go check it out. And so evidently, Sonny and Bruce.
- [48:10]
Jordan
Yeah, Sonny and Bruce.
- [48:11]
Kevin
Sonny and Bruce. Yes. They do a podcast together. And so I guess Sonny is the sidekick to Bruce on Bruce's podcast. And I thought that maybe there was something wrong with our voicemail feature or something, like it was messing up, but it's not. It's just the duck found the phone and called in and left us a voicemail.
- [48:27]
Jordan
You know what I love is that our listeners have found, like, the most unhinged ways. Like this feels very much like leaving those prank voicemails. People are going to use these, like, voice filters on the roadcasters, like prank voicemail. Other podcasters.
- [48:42]
Alvin
I just want to use this in all of our marketing materials now. Voicemail. So easy a duck can use it.
- [48:49]
Kevin
Yeah. And. And Jordan, I don't know this for sure, but I think that the Sunny voice is 100 legit. Like, that's a real voice. I don't think it's an AI or a voice filter. I think that is, like, actual voice talent.
- [49:01]
Jordan
Are you sure that'd be cool?
- [49:02]
Kevin
No, I'm not sure, but I think. I think I read that somewhere. Either it came at the tail end of that voicemail, or it was on the Ugly Quacking Duck podcast website or something like that.
- [49:12]
Alvin
Cool.
- [49:12]
Kevin
But either way, I think Sunny and Bruce have found a niche. They are unique in their space.
- [49:18]
Jordan
I love it. All right, and our next voicemail is actually a prompt for our next episode from David from no Stroke Podcast, who has approached the hundredth episode, and they've been planning for what happens after their podcast wraps up and talking about writing a book and using a licensing play, things like that. And so here's what he has to say.
- [49:38]
Kevin
Here we go. This is David with the no Stroke podcast. I'd love to see if you can do an episode on repurposing show content.
- [49:46]
Alvin
And we're already using the fan mail
- [49:48]
Kevin
feature to ask past guests to leave us a note of congrats as we hit 100.
- [49:52]
Alvin
Thanks for always building new tools for us. Oh, I love this idea. So I was just on YouTube this morning answering some of the comments, and somebody left a comment saying, thank you so much for all the work on transcripts, because they wanted to know how we repurpose content. And I just seen this, and I told them I think this would be a great idea for a show. We should do it. So, yeah, let's. Let's talk about repurposing content. I think as soon as you have a podcast series or a few episodes and you've kind of gone around the same topic, and then you have it all broken out with a transcript, I think it really opens you up to tons of new repurposing ideas. So, yeah, this is. This is a great idea.
- [50:35]
Jordan
And I think that we definitely want to go beyond just blogs and social posts, because I feel like a lot of people know that you can Repurpose podcast content that way. So maybe we want to look for some more creative ways to do that. So to send those in, go ahead and tap the send a spam mail link in the show notes. And until next time, thanks for listening and keep podcasting.
- [50:59]
Kevin
You guys want a little Apple Podcast video project update?
- [51:03]
Jordan
Ooh, yeah. Well, this is sneaky. We're, like, in the very end of the episode. Okay.
- [51:07]
Kevin
I will tell you that we've got some customers publishing video through buzzsprout. Everything's going pretty well. Some of these podcasts are bigger than others. A couple of them got featured in Apple Podcasts on the, like, new in video section or whatever.
- [51:24]
Jordan
Oh, cool.
- [51:25]
Kevin
Which is pretty neat. So if you open your Apple Podcast app on your phone and you go to now with video. Yeah. New and video, scroll across that thing. Now with video, go down to where it says, like, newly added video, and scroll over four or five or six, and who do you see?
- [51:43]
Alvin
Two guys on a plane.
- [51:45]
Kevin
Two guys on a plane.
- [51:46]
Alvin
Yes. That's awesome.
- [51:48]
Kevin
No way. And then keep scrolling a little further, and who do you see?
- [51:53]
Jordan
Vera House.
- [51:54]
Kevin
Vera House podcast.
- [51:56]
Jordan
Oh, my gosh.
- [51:58]
Alvin
Vera House was the first buzzsprout podcast to ever be in video. To do video on Apple podcasts. They were even before any of us
- [52:06]
Jordan
did one Brave Souls.
- [52:08]
Kevin
So I thought that was fun. I mean, there. That's. That's pretty big. Right on the homepage of the Apple Podcast app.
- [52:14]
Jordan
It looks so good.
- [52:15]
Alvin
Pretty big feature last night, Kevin.
- [52:17]
Kevin
Yeah.
- [52:18]
Alvin
I'm leaving the office, and you ran over to Tom's computer, and you're like, hey, I want to look at some of the stats for these videos.
- [52:24]
Kevin
Oh, gosh, we're gon.
- [52:25]
Alvin
Until that's connected. Were you just seeing a bunch of stats come in from these shows because some of them got featured?
- [52:31]
Kevin
No, the stats thing I was talking about is that another podcast in our video beta has an episode that's doing really, really well. Like, exceptionally well. And so we're just digging deep into the stats and verifying everything is legit. And as far as we can tell, everything looks perfectly legit. And so it's possible that, you know, we were. We're not. Apple didn't come out and say that discoverability would be a huge part of video and Apple podcasts, but at least for this one episode, it appears to be helping. And so, I don't know, we're still building out the stats and everything, so we'll see if that proves to be true. But at least one of the many episodes that we published so far seems to have been getting a bit of a stats boost from. From publishing video.
- [53:09]
Alvin
I mean, this makes sense. We remember when Apple podcast subscriptions came out. Anybody who launched subscriptions early on, there were a handful that got a lot of promotion from Apple because they want to highlight the people who are using their new features. Well, yeah, yeah. And especially if you're already shooting video content, getting into this beta and then getting your shows up there. So when we go through our full launch, I'm sure there'll just be more opportunities for video podcasters, especially in Apple, to get what might just be like a one time big promotion. But as we've seen with Apple podcasts new and noteworthy, sometimes that turns into sustained growth. Especially if you have a podcast that kind of catches the audience at the right time and people stick around.
- [53:54]
Jordan
Well, and they've been running subscriptions for a couple years now, I think maybe, maybe even longer than a couple years. And they still have categories like in their editorial sections where it's like top subscriptions and like they feature podcasts with subscriptions. If you have a subscription on Apple podcasts, you're more likely to get featured. So I do think it's still even years later, plays a part in it. So yeah, might be doing the same thing with video.
- [54:17]
Alvin
I'm sure that's true. Yeah.
- [54:18]
Kevin
All right, well, we'll circle back. We are going to have a lot more news to share in the next couple weeks around this video launch and all that's happening there.
- [54:26]
Jordan
So excited.
- [54:27]
Kevin
Coming soon.