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- [00:00]
A
All right, welcome back to Buzzcast. We're trying something different for today's quick cast. I will be your host, Albert Brooke, and with me are Jordan and Kevin. Kevin's a little under the weather, so. Pardon the voice.
- [00:14]
B
What do you mean by host? You mean like. You mean like discussion leader?
- [00:18]
A
I'm the group leader today. Okay.
- [00:19]
C
I'm the captain now.
- [00:22]
A
I'm the podcast host now.
- [00:25]
B
All right, host, where are we going?
- [00:27]
A
All right, so I went on to X and I guess I looked at my messages for the first time in, like, two months.
- [00:33]
C
Yeah.
- [00:34]
A
And I had a message from Family History Drama podcast. And they were like, you know, this might be something for you to look into, because I noticed something weird when I'm listening to a podcast. It was Tom billyu's Impact Theory. Sorry if I mispronounce that podcast name. He was like, okay. So he sent me some screenshots, and. And they're in the outline. And here's what's happening. He got two notifications for this podcast, like, back to back, and one's for a normal episode, but there was another, and it looks like an episode. It's from the same podcast, and it says, you might also like on purpose with Jay Shetty. It's labeled as this bonus episode. So when they went back and looked like there's other times this is happening, the other. These same you might also like episodes. And so they wrote, I'm surprised when a suggested episode release from a podcast I listened to is actually just a promotion of somebody else's podcast. Is there money changing hands in these deals? Is this like, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Feed drop. What's going on?
- [01:41]
B
Can I just say, I hate that figure of speech. The scratching back thing just makes me.
- [01:46]
A
Which also doesn't make sense. Like, I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine.
- [01:50]
B
Yeah. That's never happened in real life life. It's very weird that that became a popular figure of speech. Yes. Was there a time in society when that was the normal thing?
- [01:59]
A
You were like, hey, can you scratch my back? No way, man. Not unless you're locking in you're going to scratch mine. And it's not like the two of them at the same time both had a need for a back scratch. Back scratch is like, once in a while, you're like, oh, it really itches in the one spot I can't get to. So good point.
- [02:15]
C
I think my daughter kind of does this. She'll sit on the couch with me, and we do like, the side hug. Thing, and then you just, like, scratch each other's backs.
- [02:21]
B
That's a very sweet mother daughter thing. But it's not. It's a contractual agreement that you're making with somebody.
- [02:27]
C
Like, you and Albin probably wouldn't be caught doing that.
- [02:29]
A
But it's like the business guys are the ones who are saying it. They're like, okay, this partnership is, I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine.
- [02:35]
C
Right.
- [02:36]
A
It's like, no, no, no. This is a. I give you money and you give me, like a physical product. Yeah. All right. Is this just a gift? Back and forth? Is it a promo swap? Is it something else? That's what I started investigating. And I did some, especially since they seem to be consistent. They always say, you might also like and then the name of the podcast, and then they drop in just this full episode.
- [03:04]
B
So is it the name of the podcast you might also like and then a podcast name?
- [03:07]
A
Right.
- [03:07]
B
And then you don't even really see the episode title until you click on it or something.
- [03:11]
A
Yeah, so like this one that was dropped in that we have a screenshot of, it says, you may also like On Purpose with Jay Shetty. On Purpose is the name of the podcast. And then in the description, it's like introducing Lizzo exclusive. And she has a. I guess it's a episode involving Lizzo, but the name of that episode is not in the title.
- [03:33]
C
Yeah, I noticed on one of the feeds of a podcast that I was listening to this morning, there was a bonus episode that dropped in their feed and it said, you might also like the Oprah podcast.
- [03:43]
A
You might.
- [03:44]
C
Yeah, I might. But I keep marking this episode as played because I don't want it to keep surfacing. And it keeps re upping, which I thought was strange for a feed drop. I've never seen that happen in a feed drop before.
- [03:54]
B
Did either of you tap on these to listen to them?
- [03:56]
C
Well, it was in a true crime podcast feed. And I was like, that's kind of a weird choice. And so I didn't listen.
- [04:01]
B
I guess I'm wondering if they are just straight up feed drops, like it's just the regular episode, or if the host of the podcast you're listening to is introing it and saying why they think you might like it.
- [04:12]
A
Yeah, they're just the episode.
- [04:14]
B
Okay.
- [04:14]
A
The host is not saying, like, hey, my great friend Jay Shetty, and he does this other podcast called On Purpose, and we often collaborate and he's been on the show. You know him, he does a podcast. And I thought today I'D love to drop it in. No, it's just a. You're in a new episode, a little bit disoriented.
- [04:32]
C
Yeah. And it's. It has their full episode description with all their links to support the show and everything in it. So it's. Yeah. So if I click the Oprah podcast and I hit play, it goes immediately into Oprah's introduction of the guest that's on her episode. So there's no priming for it, Nothing. It's just there.
- [04:52]
B
And one more question. Are they dropping at the same time? So when the hosting podcast is dropping a real episode, they're also dropping this bonus right next to it?
- [05:00]
C
Yes.
- [05:00]
A
Yeah, these are good questions, Kevin. These are all questions that I think are kind of hinting at what's happening and some of the logic behind it. But yes, they drop them back to back and they sandwich the bonus. You might also like episode between two real episodes. So buzzcast 100 comes out. Buzzcast 101's about to go. Jordan hits publish. And then you might also like Podney's weekly review drops in. And Right after that, Buzzcast101 comes in right behind it. Which, from my thought, I'm like, that's actually a slightly better experience because for a lot of us, if you see a new episode from a show you're excited about, drop. And then you click on it. No matter how much you like Oprah or Jay Shetty, when you hear them talking, not the podcast that you like, you're like, what? No, I don't want to be recommended something new. I already know what I like, and you told me you had it. And now it's a bait and switch. So the sandwiching is better.
- [06:03]
C
It is better, yeah.
- [06:04]
A
But if you search this, this is the naming convention that they use at Pod Roll. Pod Roll being Pod Roll Capital R, the company that does dynamic feed drops, not the podcasting 2.0 feature. So what they do is Hod Roll. You upload an episode to them, and then they will pay podcasters to drop that episode into their feed. They do some sort of redirect where they are measuring whether or not people actually go and listen to that episode and whether or not I think that they actually migrate over to your show since you did the feed drop, to kind of do some measurement. But they're always bonus episodes. They always start with, you might also like colon and they've got links and they do the episode art and all that stuff. And then they drop a disclaimer into the episode description. Yeah, this is like what they do. This is the. You know, this is a company that's doing this kind of at scale, and I'm seeing it more and more.
- [07:08]
C
Yeah, here's where I'm seeing a flaw in their scaling of this. I was reading the disclaimer, and I really. I really don't like this. It says disclaimer. Please note, this is an independent podcast episode not affiliated with, endorsed by or produced in conjunction with the host podcast feed or any of its media entities. And I'm just like, okay, if you're going to be dropping a podcast episode into your feed, perhaps you should be endorsing it. Right. Like, this is just weird.
- [07:34]
B
I'm pretty sure you are endorsing it.
- [07:35]
C
Yeah. If I'm. If I'm being fed an episode from a completely different podcast, I would hope that is one that that podcast I am subscribed to is endorsing like this. It just seems so weird to me. I don't really like that part of it.
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B
Yeah. Disclaimer or not, they are endorsing it first. Just like any TV show that runs an ad, you know they're going to get flack if the ad is offensive.
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A
Right, Right.
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B
Like, you're taking sponsorship money from this company. This company's terrible. They test their products on animals or something, and they're going to come after them.
- [08:05]
C
This happened with Spotify. Remember when there was a bunch of those, like, featured promos popping up on people's podcasts? And they were so upset because Spotify was just putting these promos in that it was products that they would, like, never endorse. Like, I think it was like children's podcasts getting, like, whiskey or something like that.
- [08:22]
A
Like, oh, yeah, there was once where Wild Turkey. It was just. It was like an accident. But a bunch of Wild Turkey ads were dropped in to shows, and some of them were kids shows, but some of them were also. One of them at least was like a Going Sober podcast.
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C
That's right.
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A
Everybody's like, good grief.
- [08:40]
C
Yeah, but that's the thing is, like, you don't have that level of, like, control. And so you're saying, like, yeah, we don't endorse this, but we're gonna put it in our feed in front of our audience. Like that.
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A
This does happen, actually, for all advertisements that the creators are like, we want to remain whole and clean and separate and, oh, we have nothing to do with those ads. Like, oh, don't associate with the ads we're running. But they definitely want the money. And I'm like, You get to have it one of the two ways.
- [09:08]
C
Yeah.
- [09:09]
A
Either you vet the ads and say no, and then it's like your endorsement is there and your integrity is there. Or you take the money and you take the hit too, when there's something in there that's not appropriate and people don't like, you know, you can't take the ad money and then be like, hey, by the way, we didn't actually endorse that, even though it looks like it. All we did was take the money.
- [09:32]
C
Yeah.
- [09:33]
A
Anyway, so when I dug into this, the main difference is Pod Roll. What they're doing is you'll upload an episode, and rather than you going around and trying to find somebody to do a feed drop and record those intros, they work with lots of large podcasts and they will get you into those podcast feeds and hopefully convert some of those listeners over to your show. One of the things, I mean, at least what they had in a press release I found was they claimed to sell the promo episodes for $50 CPM. So the podcaster is paid if the episode is downloaded. And then I'm not exactly sure what the cost. $50 or more is what you're paying if you want your show featured in other podcasts.
- [10:16]
B
Yeah. And then you mentioned briefly like that they're doing some additional tracking. So maybe this is an assumption, but I'm assuming they're probably doing a URL prefix on both podcast feeds so that they can match IPs between who downloaded the source feed and then who downloaded something from the target feed. And if we get an IP match, we can assume that's the same person.
- [10:37]
A
Right. That's the way I would imagine you'd want to run it. So I did look at on purpose with Jay Shetty. They do use the pod roll measurement according to Pod News. So the, you know, Pod News will. Any redirects that they see will list on that page. So I could see they're using Pod Roll. That's how I confirmed. Yeah, that's what this is. It would be interesting to find where these episodes are showing up right now and whether or not they have that tracking. I have noticed because it took me a month to get onto X, the screenshots that I got from Family History Drama podcast, they're different than what's in the feed now.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And so because these are CPM based and they're not forever, they drop it in, you get your million impressions or whatever, and then they pull it back out.
- [11:25]
C
Yeah. And I think it's kind of Cool that they did integrate feed drops with how dynamic advertising works. Like, it's a very interesting take on it, but I, I don't know. Me personally, I feel the same way about this as I do about, you know, the programmatic advertising where it's just like dropped in and stuff. Whereas I much prefer when hosts actually endorse what is going into their content and you know, that they have a personalized endorsement for it. They. They are saying why they think it would be a good fit for their audience. I just much prefer that even with
- [12:00]
A
feed drops, I think feed drops even more. At least with an ad, you roll into the ad, there might be some music, you say, okay, we're going to take a quick break. You have the ads, they feel very different. Yeah, with a feed drop, it can feel like a bit of a bait and switch. There's two episodes, so it only turns out there's only one. Oh, there's this other thing you already feel, at least. I often, anytime this happens to me, I feel let down that there's not a new episode, the show's not coming back. It's just they want the promo, but then if you do click it and the host that you already have a relationship with is there to make the, you know, quote unquote intro like they're introducing you. Oh, here's why I think you would like it. Here's why I went out of my way to give you this show and recommend it. If that's in there, at least. Like, there's kind of the full circle, is there? You feel like, oh, I built a relationship with one podcast, they recommended another. Okay, I'm willing to take this on. So I'd like to see, you know, if Pod Roll could do this, do it as more of a matching service. Say, hey, we'd love to match you to podcasters. So now record an intro for this episode if you think it's a fit. And my guess is that's got to at least be twice as valuable as a listener to hear. Oh, there's actually somebody who I trust recommending this show. I'm so much more excited versus I'd frankly just be frustrated to see. Oh, I got a random episode in here. I thought it was my favorite podcast. No, it's not my favorite podcast. It's a totally different podcast I never would have listened to.
- [13:37]
B
You mentioned this earlier. The thing that they're really doing different is they're doing it at scale. And so when you optimize for scale, you don't optimize for Performance like they're trying to get it into as many podcast feeds as possible as efficiently as possible. And the benefit that we have as smaller podcasters, independent podcasters without large teams and without large budgets, is that you can totally do this yourself just by reaching out to podcasts that you really do like, that you do think your audience would enjoy, and then doing it in a way that's not scalable. We've talked about marketing tactics. Some of the best marketing tactics that are available to independent podcasters are not scalable at all. And that's great news because we can do things that the big people can't. We don't have to do this thousands of times. You just have to do it your one time for your one show. And so if you want to test the idea of a feed drop, find a podcast that you like, that you think your audience would also like. Reach out to them, see if you can set up an agreement. And I scratch your back, you scratch mine agreement or offer a little bit of money, see if they're interested in introing one of your episodes. And then I really like the way that Albin is positioning it. Also, like, talk about the show a little bit, then go into the show and then maybe sum it up at the end, maybe come back in at the end and tell them how they can subscribe to that in the podcast app of their choice. I think that is really valuable. And it doesn't have all the creepy tracking tech, but you don't really need that if it's just like a swap, like, I'll do it for your show, you do it for mine. We have similar numbers or whatever.
- [15:01]
C
So I've actually done this. I've done feed drops, both in a community based, hey, I want to promote your show to my audience just because. And then I've also done it in exchange for money. So it's actually not that technical when you're doing a feed drop. Like, so I've, I've had big networks come to me and say, hey, we have a new, like, storytelling podcast that we want to drop into your feed. And they'll usually offer about 45 to $55 CPM. Like, that's pretty average. And then they just want to know the average amount of downloads. And then after like 30 days, you just send them a screenshot of your buzzsprout stats for that episode and that's it. It's really not that technical. It does work a lot better if you recorded an intro at the beginning. Like, hey, I thought you'd enjoy this. And then, yeah, I. I did that exact thing, Kevin, where I was wanting to take a break on my podcast. And so I reached out on Instagram to some bedtime story podcasts that I really liked. There was one that I talked to that did Slavic fairy tales. And I reached out to her. She was a newer podcaster, and I took one of her episodes. She was totally down for it. I explained what a feed drop was, why it would benefit her, you know, how it would help me take a break, but also endorse something to my audience. And it was cool because then she was able to share that be drop to her audiences as well. And, yeah, I just recorded an intro, a quick intro saying, like, hey, while I'm on break, I want you to check out this. This podcast. I think it'd be really great. And she did get a nice big bump in downloads from it, so it was very beneficial to her. So it's really easy to do. And I've never had someone tell me, no, I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna do a feed drop. So it's definitely something you can reach out to somebody and say, like, hey, do you wanna swap this? Because it is valuable.
- [16:51]
A
So, Jordan, if you were trying, that makes a lot of sense for when you're trying to take a break. Yeah. Or when you want to endorse. As soon as I see the money, I start thinking, okay, probably the reason people are doing this is mostly to supplement the ad revenue for the podcast.
- [17:06]
C
Yeah.
- [17:07]
A
And that $50 cpm, or you said 45 to 55, sounds really good. Because I'm thinking I compare the number 50 to the number 20, and it is a lot higher.
- [17:18]
C
Yes.
- [17:18]
A
But whenever I hear $20 CPM, I have to remember, most podcasts don't have a single ad. They probably have five. And so that episode, while the ads may be $20 ads, the episode is being monetized at, like, $100 CPM. If they've got five ads, 20 times five. So it's actually quite a bit lower than, you know, monetizing one of your episodes with ads. Did you ever think through that? Or what were your thinkings when you've done those?
- [17:49]
C
I mean, honestly, my thinking was if someone comes to me and they say, hey, we want to put one of our episodes into your feed for 30 days, and we'll pay you $850 for it, I'm going, okay, sure. Like, I don't have to, like, craft a whole episode. All I have to do is introduce it and say, like, hey, I think you'd really enjoy this. And of course it's going to be a podcast that I would actually endorse. I would never put something that is going to, like, alienate my audience into my feedback, but I would just record like a 15 second intro, which takes five minutes out of my day, and then drop it. And then you get like 800 bucks for it. To me, it's so little work and so little effort for that money. And then on top of that, I can have an episode come out that also has a couple sponsorships. You know, maybe it's a sponsored episode. And so that week I doubled my money. Right?
- [18:40]
A
That's true. That's a good point.
- [18:42]
C
Especially with this Pod Roll version of it where you literally don't have to do anything. You just let them put stuff in your feed.
- [18:48]
B
Yeah. I gotta be honest, though, unless you're looking to do it at scale, I don't. I don't feel like the pod roll solution makes a lot of sense for smaller independent podcasters. Like, it's not that hard to set these deals up yourself. And you get the benefit of being more selective. You get to go out and find the podcast that you think you want to make this offer. You know, this agreement with. And with Pod Roll, you probably do have some level of control, but it's not going to be fine. Grain control. Like, you're not going to actually get to go scout the exact podcast that you think you want to make this offer to.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah, but you got to remember, Kevin, the independent podcast episode is not affiliated, endorsed, or produced in conjunction with the host podcast feed or any of its media entities.
- [19:27]
B
Oh, perfect.
- [19:28]
A
Clear as day, dude.