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Call Her Daddy
Halsey: Power Dynamics & Toxic Relationships
01:28:35
Join Alex in the studio for a sit-down interview with Halsey. Halsey opens up about her volatile childhood, loneliness, the danger of using sexuality as currency, breaking the cycle of toxic relationships, and finally finding happiness with her fiancé. Halsey also discusses their health journey and their new album. This episode is so powerful and insightful...Enjoy!
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- [00:03]
Alex Cooper
What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy Halsey. Welcome to Call Her Daddy.
- [00:13]
Halsey
Thanks for having me.
- [00:14]
Alex Cooper
I am so happy that we're finally doing this. I feel like I've been waiting to meet you for so long.
- [00:19]
Halsey
I know. Me too.
- [00:20]
Alex Cooper
So thank you for coming. Of course. I realize that some of the Daddy Gang may not know that your legal name is Ashley and Halsey is a stage name. What do the people closest to you call you?
- [00:31]
Halsey
Ash.
- [00:32]
Alex Cooper
Ash.
- [00:32]
Halsey
Everyone calls me Ash. My son just started calling me Ash. I was like, you better get it together. I'm mommy to you. Okay. Like, I'm going to start. I'm going to have to make him a shirt. Make myself a shirt. Says, call me Mommy. Like, I'm obsessed. He's like. He goes, ash. I'm like. He goes, well, I want to call you Ash. I'm like, well, you can't.
- [00:53]
Alex Cooper
You can't. I'm mother.
- [00:55]
Halsey
I know. I don't know how to explain it to him in a way that doesn't sound, like, so, like, psychotically, like, you have to respect me and give me this. Like, there's no way to explain it. Like, he's like, why can't I call you Ash if everyone else does? I'm like, that's a great question. No, it's. But I just don't like it.
- [01:09]
Alex Cooper
But I also think it's like, the rite of passage. Like, when you become a parent, you're like, give me at least, like, 10 years of calling me, like, mom and Mommy and.
- [01:17]
Halsey
Yeah, you're three.
- [01:18]
Alex Cooper
Right.
- [01:18]
Halsey
You can call me Ash later. Like, it's like. It's so funny. Yeah, it's crazy.
- [01:23]
Alex Cooper
Is it weird if anyone in your life would, like, refer to you as Halsey?
- [01:27]
Halsey
Some people do. Like, I think it's kind of interchangeable at this point. I, like, answer to it the same way as if it was my name. It feels the same in my body.
- [01:36]
Alex Cooper
It does.
- [01:36]
Halsey
You know, like, it feels like. It's like it registers the same emotionally, as if someone says Ash or Ashley.
- [01:42]
Alex Cooper
Have you ever looked at it like it's an alter ego?
- [01:46]
Halsey
Recently? Yeah.
- [01:47]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [01:47]
Halsey
I didn't mean to. When I started, it was just a name because my name is Ashley Frangipani. And, like, you can't. You can't be Frangipan. You know, you have.
- [01:56]
Alex Cooper
You have to say it in your New Jersey actor.
- [01:57]
Halsey
My name is Ashley Frangipani. So, you know, there was no. That wasn't happening. So it was just supposed to be, like, an Easy. Like moniker.
- [02:05]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [02:06]
Halsey
And then, yeah, I would say, like, a couple years ago, I started having thoughts like, that were like, oh, well, that's very Halsey. Or like, well, I dress like this when I'm Ash, and then I dress like this when I'm Halsey. And then I kind of was like, whoa, when did I start differentiating between the two? Like, when did they become two separate things?
- [02:24]
Alex Cooper
Was that, like, freaky or.
- [02:26]
Halsey
No, Kind of. Yeah. Because I was kind of like, how did it happen?
- [02:29]
Alex Cooper
What is the difference between Halsey and Ashley? Like, give us an example.
- [02:32]
Halsey
Well, you know what's funny is I think Ashley is like. Like, when I'm Ash, like, I'm definitely way more, I think, masculine than when I'm Halsey. And I'm not really certain, like, where that kind of started to divert, you know what I mean? Like, when I'm home, like, I'm like a. I'm like a boy. Clothes, short hair, like, not to, like, gender clothes, but, like, you know what I'm saying?
- [02:55]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [02:56]
Halsey
And I'm definitely kind of. I think that Ash is, like, less provocative. Like, I'm very, like, chill. I'm very patient. You know what I mean? Like, very, like, maternal. And then I feel like, Halsey, a lot of people have this idea that I'm, like, really provocative. And, like, you know, I'm, like, always, like, yapping. I'm a big yapper. Halsey's a yapper. Ash is not so much a yapper.
- [03:25]
Alex Cooper
Have you ever become, like, a little resentful of the Persona that you've created?
- [03:29]
Halsey
Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I think that the part. Part of the problem, though, is that, like, you know, people just kind of decide who you are based on, like, when they got to know you. You know what I mean? Like, I've been seeing a lot of that happening. Like, every now and then, like, I'll see, like, a comment under, like, a picture of, like, me and my partner and someone's like, I thought she was dating, blah, blah, blah. And it's like someone from, like, six years ago, and I'm like, oh, your update. And, like, I don't expect everyone to know everything about me that's going on at any given moment, but, like, they just locked in something from, like, a big press moment or, like, a time when I was, like, really on, or, like, they were reading about me a lot and they were like, and that's who you are forever? And I'm like, whoa, it's been like, six years. So much has happened.
- [04:11]
Alex Cooper
That's like, Kind of a mind fuck mentally to be like, no, no, no. I've progressed and grown. But you guys see this Persona that, like, was very there in your minds, and it never grew. And I fully grown as a human being.
- [04:24]
Halsey
Totally.
- [04:24]
Alex Cooper
And yet Halsey is just, like, almost, like, stuck in time for people, which I think a lot of celebrities or performers have that. Like, and everyone decides when they want to grow with their performer or not. Like, yeah, it's fucking confusing.
- [04:37]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [04:38]
Alex Cooper
How would you describe your relationship to Fame?
- [04:41]
Halsey
I'm kind of indifferent at this point. I used to be, like. It used to be not that way. It used to be just torturous. You know what I mean? Like, I. I will say, like, it never really felt normal. It still doesn't. Like, I've. I've been doing this for, like, 11 years. You would think at this point that I would just be like, yeah, I'm famous. No, that is not how it is. I, like, still wake up every day and not. And they're like, I wake up every day and I'm like, oh, my God. It's more like, I wake up every day and I'm like, what the. You know what I mean? And I think that I also, like, I've kept, like, a lot of really normal people around me. And you know what? Actually, that's the distinction. That's when the distinction started happening. Was that. Was that when I started to become, like, a celebrity? Like, the distinction between Halsey and Ashley, I think, is very much that, like, Ashley stayed the same. You know, we're like, when I'm out with my friends, like, my best friend Erica, she's my best friend since I was, like, 13, and she's like. She says to me, like, once a month or like, a couple of times a month, like, we'll be out somewhere doing something, and someone will be like, oh, can you picture? There's, like a paparazzi? I was like, whatever. And she'll be like, dude, I, like, just forget you're famous every day.
- [05:51]
Alex Cooper
That's the best.
- [05:52]
Halsey
I just forget all the time. And she's, like, lived with me. She's been around for, like, every step of the journey. She's like, backstage at the VMAs with me. And then, like, the next day, she's like, I very famous. I'm like, how the VMAs yesterday. How did you forget? And she's like, you just are still so. You're exactly the same as you were. You know what I mean?
- [06:10]
Alex Cooper
I do think, like, that's so important to have, though, because at the end of the day, like, all these people that are famous, it. You're famous for, like, something that you're really good at. Obviously, some people are just famous because they're famous, but, like, you are so talented and your talent has made you famous, of course. But with that, like, you are just still a human being that, like, likes to sleep and likes to eat and likes to chill with friends. And so I think having those, like, friends around you must still make you feel like the person from New Jersey just growing up and, like, had a talent. I think that's helpful to have. When do you feel most like yourself? Like, what would you be doing?
- [06:48]
Halsey
Well, I'm pretty boring. I didn't used to be. I, like, I got it out of my system. You know what I mean? Like, I had, like, a couple of years where I look back on and, like, cringe into, like, a black hole when I see those photos or, like. But I'm also really grateful for them because I just, like, did it in a contained set of years, and then I'll never have to do it again. So, like, now I'm just boring.
- [07:09]
Alex Cooper
Like, no, you're not boring, but I know what you're talking about. I think we all have that where we're like, yeah, what was I doing? Like, what. What would you say you did? That was cringe.
- [07:19]
Halsey
Oh, my God. There's like, so many pictures of me just, like, up, like, leaving a club. Like. Like paparazzi. Like, it's like three in the morning. I'm like, what are you doing? But also, I was, like, 22. You know what I mean? So when I see that, I'm, like, gentle with myself about it, but, like. Or, like, times where I, like, I don't know, there's stuff that's like, maybe cringe, but also maybe part of me. I'm a little bit, like, go off, like, you know, or like, I, like, I clapped back at someone, or I, like, you know, like, I went off or something like that. And, like, I see that and I'm like, gosh, you were so angry and so confused and so, like, overwhelmed, and, like, you had no one to help you. So I have, like, a lot of compassion for that version of me. But then there's also times where I'm like, girl, shut up. You know? I'm like, shut up.
- [08:03]
Alex Cooper
No, I think that's like, no matter if you're famous or not, like, people can look back at old Facebook photos and be like, what was I up to? What was going on there? Alex. But then at the end of the day, you're like, well, I was fucking young. And, like, I was having, I think, a good time.
- [08:17]
Halsey
I mean, I didn't go to college. You know what I mean? So I didn't have, like, those years. And it's funny, the same, like, I feel like, the same people who will pass judgment for, like, photos of me in, like, my 20s, like, not even in my 20s, like, at 20, you know, because I was 19 when I wrote my first album. And, you know, there's, like, pictures of me from that time, and people are like, oh, gosh. Like. And I feel like there's this almost indication of, like, no class. And I'm like, what if I were at, like, a university? And, like, these pictures were just, like, on Facebook or, like, whatever, and I was just, like, going. Like, you would just consider that a natural part of me, like, finding myself and, like, you know. But because there's this extra set of expectations, I think there's, like, a separate judgment that's passed. And, like, I try to. I try to, like, contextualize it that way and be like, girl, you would have been doing the same thing if you stayed in Jersey, if you went to Rutgers. You know what I mean? You made even worse, actually, I was.
- [09:10]
Alex Cooper
Gonna say, if you went to Rutgers, you would have been, like, face up on a keg stand. Like, you would have had pictures of you on the keg stand. Like, it would have been similar, if not worse.
- [09:20]
Halsey
I know.
- [09:21]
Alex Cooper
How do you choose what to keep private and what to put into your art and your music?
- [09:30]
Halsey
I don't know that I really choose.
- [09:33]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [09:34]
Halsey
I think it kind of. I just, like, write what I'm feeling. There's a song on this album called Hurt Feelings, and it's about my dad. I've written a song about my dad every single album and every single time. Just when we get to the time where we're deciding the tracklist, I cut the song. So I'm like, I can't do it. I'm too scared. I'm too scared. I'm too scared. And this time I didn't, and I put it on the album. And that was, like, a moment for me where I was like, okay, this is something I have kept private. But now I feel ready to, like, get out there, and I feel like I have a responsibility, kind of.
- [10:03]
Alex Cooper
Do you have a relationship with your father? Like, does he know this is going to be on the album?
- [10:07]
Halsey
He doesn't know it's going to be. Be on the album. We have A pretty complicated relationship, which is, like, you know, I don't think that's, like, groundbreaking. I feel like a lot of young women have complicated relationships with their fathers. I think for me especially, you know, I started making music when I was 18, and it kind of started to blow up when I was 19, and it just changed everything about our family's dynamic because I became the breadwinner, and I became kind of, like, you know, in a way, like, I became, like, the matriarch, patriarch of my family. And I think that, you know, for a man who, like, spent his whole life, like, working really hard to support his family, and then, you know, I kind of come in and I'm, like, still a kid to him, and I take that role. I imagine that's probably just, like, conflicting, you know, in, like, an existential level. And it definitely showed up in our relationship, and so it's, like, affected itself.
- [11:06]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, I can imagine that was very confusing for both of you. Like, also you coming in being like, I don't know what the to do either. Like, this is. And when you do look back, what is your earliest childhood memory that comes to mind?
- [11:21]
Halsey
It's so hard. I'm like, one of those people that doesn't remember, like, a lot of their childhood. I had, like, a really. I had, like, a really hectic childhood. My parents, really young, when they had me, they dropped out of college. They met at Fairleigh Dickinson in Jersey, and then they were, like, 19 or 20 when they got pregnant. They'd only known each other for, like, a couple months. And, you know, they both dropped out and started their family with me. We moved all the time. Every year we moved. Like, I wasn't out of school until, like, high school. I wasn't out of school longer than, like, two years. And I was always starting over in a new place. We were just trying to go where there was, like, cheaper apartments, better jobs, and parents working, like, multiple jobs, and, like, my experience felt so irrelevant to, like, what they were going through. You know what I mean? It was like, my. I think that when I look back on my childhood, my experience. My experience was very much to just, like, not get in the way because of how hard it was. And, like, I failed at that miserably. I was getting in the way all of the time, you know what I mean? And then I feel like that has probably attributed to, like, why I am in, like, the line of work that I'm in, because, like, you know, we're all looking to satisfy some sort of, like. No, I don't Want to say need for attention, because I feel like that's like, derogatory, but, like, maybe like we're looking for our voice and our experience to matter, you know?
- [12:43]
Alex Cooper
But don't you feel like even hearing you say that when you're like, I was always in the way, I'm like, yeah, but I feel like that's what kids are supposed to do.
- [12:49]
Halsey
Totally.
- [12:50]
Alex Cooper
And like, I imagine you, though, like, under those circumstances of your parents constantly having to move. You were like, hyper aware of just like, stay over here. Like, don't do anything. Don't, like, get in the way. Like, I am not that important right now. Do you remember what you felt about when you would view your parents romantic relationship?
- [13:11]
Halsey
My parents were really, I guess, kind of volatile. They were either super in love and cuddled on the couch, laid the fuck up, going on dates, obsessed with each other, like kids. They were like, at each other's throats. There was like, no, no in between. And, you know, like, I've actually never really talked about this before, but my household was, like, pretty. My household was pretty volatile, you know what I mean? Like, there was a lot of, like. There was a lot of, like, aggression, you know what I mean? And aggression just, like, thrown in every direction, like, you know, And I think that it's so funny because I. It's so obvious that you witness that you form that as your perception of. Not necessarily of what love is, but what's acceptable in love, you know, and then that you apply that. When I look on past relationships of mine, I'm like, okay. I'm like, literally, this is two plus two equals four. Like, it's so simple. You know what I mean?
- [14:25]
Alex Cooper
It's fucked. Yeah. Oh, that was. That is why I went for this. But so simple. But it's like, not also. Yeah, because you don't catch yourself immediately doing it. And then when it's like a pattern.
- [14:36]
Halsey
Then you're like, whoa, I know. And then it's funny because you think you do the work. And then like, a different trauma sneaks up on you where it's like, okay, so you're like, all right, I'm going to tolerate, like, violence or aggression or, like, whatever it is, because I experienced it. But now I'm going to unlearn that so it never happens again. And then you get into another relationship, you're like, this one's better because it's not like the last one. And then like, a different thing sneaks, you know what I mean? Where it's like, the person's like, Putting you down, or they're like, I don't know, like, gaslighting you or, like, whatever. And you're like, is this a whole other thing?
- [15:08]
Alex Cooper
Right?
- [15:08]
Halsey
I'm. This is a whole other thing. Is it all just my childhood again?
- [15:11]
Alex Cooper
No, it's like, no, literally, it's like, whack a mole. Because you're like, oh, maybe it's not, like, physical this time, but it's, like, emotional this time. But it's all under the same fucking umbrella.
- [15:20]
Halsey
Totally.
- [15:21]
Alex Cooper
First of all, thank you for sharing that, because I feel like you're someone that, like, your. When you write in your songs, like, it's so fucking powerful. And I think a lot of people connect to you on how real you are in lyrics, especially this new album coming out. When I was listening to it, I was like, I need. I feel like I need to pull over. Like, this is. This is, like. It's very heavy and emotional.
- [15:39]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [15:40]
Alex Cooper
And I feel for you. But I think a lot of people can sadly relate to what you're going through. When you were in those moments with your parents and it was volatile, like, were you someone that would just, like, be alone and not tell anyone? How would you, like. Yeah, basically get through it?
- [15:59]
Halsey
I think I kind of coped in that way. Or just, like, waited for it to be over. You know what I mean? Also, like, it changes hands when you're in a household like that. Like, it usually starts, and it's like, you can kind of feel it happening to your mom. And I'm the only daughter and the oldest. Okay. Wow. So there was definitely a point where, like, the target kind of changed to me. And you feel, I think, really alone in that. In that sort of situation. I definitely just mostly coped by writing. I've always been a writer, like, my whole life. And, you know, I, like, used to keep journals and, like, keep diaries and stuff like that, and I read a lot, and I def. I was someone who kind of, like, I was into escapism, for sure.
- [16:42]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [16:43]
Halsey
You mean, like, novels and, like, just putting myself into, like, other worlds that just felt, like, different than mine.
- [16:49]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. Would you ever talk to your mom, like, about it since she had.
- [16:53]
Halsey
I have.
- [16:54]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [16:54]
Halsey
Yeah. No, I have. My mom and I are super close.
- [16:57]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [16:57]
Halsey
Yeah. She's like, my mom is, like, my. My best friend. And, you know, we have talked about it, and, like, I think there's a couple stages of it. Right. Because then there's the first part where you have to be like, hey, why didn't you stand up for me? And then there's the second part where you have to be like, also, I forgive you. You were going through a lot. And then there's, like, the third part of it, which is, like, there's still stuff you do today that pisses me the fuck off. But I understand why now. Because, you know, you've been conditioned. You know what I mean? In a certain way. And, like, you have to have just, like, so much grace and understanding. And, like, at a certain point, you have to just decide. You have to decide what's forgivable. Right. And some things are. And some things aren't. Like, I don't stand by the thing with people where it's like, oh, like, they're your parents. Like, whatever it is, it's not that serious. Like, you know, you have to. You have to just, like, make sure you keep the relationship. Like, I don't agree with that at all. But then at the same time, I also don't agree with the idea of, like, we should punish our parents forever for what they did to us. It's like, some things you forgive, some you don't. And that's up to you to decide. That's a good point.
- [18:02]
Alex Cooper
And it takes so much fucking time because, like, the resentment I feel, like, goes in and out. Like, depending at where you're at in life, like, you can be like, okay, we're feeling good now. And then, like, something, like, triggers you and reminds you of something they did when you were younger. And you're like, oh, my God. Actually, we're not done with this conversation.
- [18:20]
Halsey
Totally.
- [18:21]
Alex Cooper
There's more shit I just remembered. And it's like an endless cycle. But I agree, like, it doesn't. It can't just be black and white where you forgive or it's, like, all perfect. Like, there's gonna be conversations that keep having to happen.
- [18:31]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [18:32]
Alex Cooper
I think also something interesting that you were talking about was, like, going to all these different schools, like, when we are young, a huge part also of, like, what forms our personality and our tendencies is, like, our relationship with our friends and our peers. You going to new schools constantly. Like, how did you approach a new school?
- [18:50]
Halsey
I was definitely like, this is an opportunity. You know, I was always like, if there's something I want to try out or someone I want to be, like, I can do it here because no one knows me.
- [18:58]
Alex Cooper
Oh, interesting.
- [18:59]
Halsey
You know, like, when I was growing up, I was like, Ashley with a Y. I was like, Ashley with two E's. Oh, there's, like, one school I was at for, like, a really Short period of time where I was like, I'm Ashley, but everyone calls me Sky. Like, not true. I made that up. I was like, nine. And then, like, it was like, years later. I was, like, in a bar in New York, and someone came up to me, and they were like, sky. And I was like, what? And they were like, sky. Like, we went to school together, and I was like, bitch, I'm. I don't even remember being that person. Which is ironic now, because if you know anything about me, like, as an artist, like, you're like, that tracks. Like, you're constantly. Constantly look and seem and act, like, different, you know?
- [19:35]
Alex Cooper
But that's kind of, like fun and tough as a kid, you're constantly not having to have this, like, stable foundation around you of, like, I went to the same fucking school from, like, kindergarten to eighth grade. So, like, we all knew each other's parents, and we all knew each other's shit, which has its pros and cons, but, like, constantly moving. I feel like you can, yes, reinvent yourself, but you also, I feel like, aren't really seen then.
- [20:01]
Halsey
No, definitely not. Yeah, you're just, like, fragments of you out in the world. Just like these little whispers of a person who's, like, barely even formed. Like, my. My manager, Anthony, has a tattoo on his arm, and it's a tattoo of his childhood home. And he was like, yeah, this is, like, a drawing of my childhood home. And I was like, bitch, I don't. If you asked me what my childhood home was, I can't think of one because, like, I had so many. Like, I can't. I can't picture, like, a childhood home. I lived in, like, eight houses, like, apartments, like, you know what I mean?
- [20:27]
Alex Cooper
You couldn't even, like, draw something?
- [20:30]
Halsey
I mean, I would have to if I had to pick one that was, like, my childhood home. Like, maybe the house I lived in when I was in high school. But that's not really childhood. You know what I mean? It was like, I lived in so many different apartments. I lived in, like, Florham Park. I lived in Linden. I lived in Clark. I lived in, like, Sussex. I lived in. I just lived in so many different places and all these, like, little apartments, and they're all just kind of this, like, this, like, amorphous goo of, like, a bedroom. And I'm, like, in there with my little brother. And then there's like, the kitchen. And then, like, you know, like, the apartment complexes, they all, like, blend into, like, one. Like, when I picture it kind of.
- [21:09]
Alex Cooper
I'm interested To get your take on this. Like, what do you think is the difference between, like, hyper independence versus loneliness?
- [21:19]
Halsey
I think it's whether it's forced or it's a choice. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's kind of the difference. I think, like, if you're choosing to be hyper independent because it's like, it's better for you and, like, you function, you know, better in that way versus if you're forced into hyper independence because you're not trusting or you have, like, an attachment issue or, like, you know, you're. You put a lot of self, like, a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed or to accomplish. That's kind of that, like, loneliness, like, that solitude.
- [21:54]
Alex Cooper
Like, would you say you were lonely as a kid?
- [21:57]
Halsey
Oh, my God, Yeah. I was so lonely. I was. I'm still lonely. I'm like, you know, loneliness is, like, when it affects you on. You know, I feel like there's, like, clinical loneliness. You know, it's like there's, like, there's being sad because something happened, and then there's, like, obviously, like, depression, which is like, you know, it's clinical. I feel like there's a version of that with loneliness, you know, where it's like you're lonely because people aren't around and you have no one to hang out with, or you're lonely because you're going through something singular, and there's, like. Like deep, like, carnal loneliness. And I think that I've definitely felt that way for, like, a lot of my life, and it's hard to fix, you know, it's like, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to. To get around that, especially if you become comfortable in it, you know? Well.
- [22:56]
Alex Cooper
And I feel like what you're sharing, too, about your life, which I appreciate you sharing all this, just to pause for a second.
- [23:02]
Halsey
I feel like I'm being so dark.
- [23:03]
Alex Cooper
No, you're not.
- [23:04]
Halsey
Fun podcast. I was lonely as a kid.
- [23:07]
Alex Cooper
Let me just say, like, this is the shit that I think when we now listen to your music, it even adds more context. And in my opinion, I feel. Not in a creepy way, but I feel closer to you now because I'm like, oh, fuck. So many people are preach. Yes. Same, same, same. Like you talking about your childhood. I think that when people are listening to your music, it's. It is kind of helpful to know, like, no wonder you are lonely because, like, you came from this household environment that you had to become lonely because you constantly were just, like, surviving alone and, like, I think that happens a lot of times when there are volatile or abusive situations at home. Like if there's multiple people getting abused, you can't even connect in the moment over it because you're just sur. And then you talking with your mom later on down the line, like, of course you wish you guys could have bonded over or talked about it when you were that young, but you couldn't because you didn't have the tools, either of you, to be like, this is happening. A lot of times it takes getting out to be able to talk about shit.
- [24:12]
Halsey
And it's generational, you know what I mean? Like, I always say it's like our, like our. A lot of. For a lot of us. Our parents were in the generation of survival, we're the first with the luxury of existential thought. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't have the luxury to like, be like, putting. Putting thought into, you know, their existence or like, the roles and dynamics at play or like, you know, the reasons why they're doing something. Like, it was mostly just like, surviving.
- [24:38]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. You know, I'm really interested to talk about this high school glow up that you had because I could not relate more to something. I know that you've mentioned the past. You were kind of like insecure and unnoticed. And then going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life? Going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life?
- [25:23]
Halsey
I was, like, really underdeveloped.
- [25:25]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [25:25]
Halsey
You know what I mean? I was, like, really skinny. I like, didn't hit puberty until like a lot later. And I was like, super nerdy. The glasses and like, you know, I was like, yeah, I was just like a geek. And then, you know, I hit puberty and like, I came back and all of a sudden I had, like, huge tits. And like, you know, I got contacts and like, I. I also kind of, like, that was where I sort of entered my, like, I kind of entered my villain era, like when I was like 15, where I was like, tired of being nerdy and geeky and I was like, fuck you guys. Like, I actually have really cool interests and I hang out with adults, like, which is not good. That's like a whole other separate bad thing. But. Yeah, but I felt very, like, you know, I felt very, like, emboldened by that and was just like, at school, like, I don't know, my coping mechanism of, like, not getting along with the kids I went to school with or not, like, really fitting in. And having a friend group was by telling myself it didn't matter because I had like, cooler, more interesting friends and people I knew, most of whom were just like, online, like, didn't really hang out with them in real life. And I was like, you know, we're talking about like, you know, intellectual things and like, whatever else. But yeah, I definitely. I feel like everything really changed really fast for me. And I went from someone who was like, look who looked like a nerdy 10 year old when I was 15, to like, someone who was getting like, tons of unwanted, like, sexual attention. And I was like, what the.
- [26:58]
Alex Cooper
How did Having like. Because I experienced a similar thing of like overnight going through puberty and being like, no, no, no, no, no. Like the same guy that's like bullying the out of me is now like, wanting to like, take me on a date. Total pause. You fucking piece of shit. Like, nothing changed except my looks. And yet now you're into me. Like, how did that impact the way that you, like, felt about yourself?
- [27:26]
Halsey
I think it did in, like, a lot of different ways. The first was I had to like, differentiate, you know, between what attention was like, kindness and what wasn't. Because my first instinct is I was like, oh, people are being really nice to me now. And I just missed the agenda completely. And like, that was really hard to navigate because I didn't have a lot of extra experience with that. And I. It took me a long time to learn, like, if someone is like giving you that kind of attention, you're not obligated to return it. But I was really afraid of like, making people mad or making people not like me. And like, you know, on. On like the simplest level, it's like a guy will be like an to you if you are kind of. If you reject him.
- [28:10]
Alex Cooper
Yes.
- [28:10]
Halsey
And then on the worst version of it, there's violence. You know what I mean? So it was kind of like it's. I had to learn how to navigate. Like, I am not obligated to concede or to give in to the sexual pursuit of me just because it's happening.
- [28:26]
Alex Cooper
But it's hard because when you go from not experiencing any of it that like a lot of your peers are experiencing, and then all of a sudden all this validation comes. Like, I remember when that happened to me, I felt at first so excited, like, kind of like you're talking about. There's that excitement, a validation, but underneath it, I think when I was alone, I had some like, anger because I was like, totally. What, like, is it. It's so surface level. Like, I've been the same person the whole time, but you guys, like, didn't give me any fucking attention until I had tits and an ass.
- [29:00]
Halsey
And, like, that's when you have to start doing the. Would you have been nice to me before? And if the answer is no, then bye.
- [29:05]
Alex Cooper
Bye. It's really confusing. Yeah. You said once that you thought your sexiness was a superpower, kind of like we're talking about.
- [29:13]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [29:13]
Alex Cooper
And made it so no one hurt you, and you would enter these rooms just, like, for sure, feeling that confidence.
- [29:19]
Halsey
Yeah. I definitely wielded sexual power as like a. You know, I don't know, like, as a. As a tool of acquisition, you know? Like, I definitely used it in certain circumstances because it was kind of all that I had.
- [29:33]
Alex Cooper
Can you give me an example?
- [29:34]
Halsey
Well, like, you know, if you're in a room full of people, especially men, you know, and in this business, as I was starting my business and I was learning how to navigate the industry, is not just, like, I write songs and, like, I have to build a business, you know, you're in a room full of people who are more experienced than you. They're older than you, they're richer than you. They're very often men, white men, you know, and at the time, I was. I started out by trying to be like, look how smart I am, and look how much I know. And it was kind of like, okay. And I was like, well, that's not working. Okay. And then at a certain time, I think in the beginning, I kind of figured out, like, I can make all of these, like, really smart men dumb instantly if I'm just hot, you know? Like, it's so crazy how fast they become stupid. Like, there's so. They have so much power over you in the moment where you're like, all the experience, the money, the power, the whatever. And then you have this one little magic trick in your pocket where you can just be like, really? And all of a sudden, that guy is like. And you're like, oh, God, that was so easy. It's like, why wouldn't you use it if you have it then?
- [30:39]
Alex Cooper
And I think so many people can relate to this. Like, I do think, yes. Like, women can relate to using that part of us that is so sexualized and leaning into it. You can feel this, like, great, great energy from it. And it's like.
- [30:58]
Halsey
Until it becomes. Feels gross, though. Until it gets gross.
- [31:02]
Alex Cooper
And it feels gross pretty fast. I feel like. And I think, like, a Lot of conversation. I always see online, like, I know Emily Ratajkowski has talked a lot about it of like, there's this weird fucking thing where, you know, you can use it to an advantage, but then you also have to like, have some ability to like, navigate for yourself what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.
- [31:25]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [31:25]
Alex Cooper
Like, when do you think if you have like a memory that you were like, oh, I'm. I'm taking it too far. This actually is like, I'm not feeling chill about this.
- [31:33]
Halsey
I mean, there's been like a couple times. There's definitely like some times where like I was, you know, I was like out with like some collaborators and it was like late and like someone was just like. We were kind of like playfully flirting in a way that was like, seemed really harmless.
- [31:55]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [31:55]
Halsey
And then they got like really drunk and they just started kind of like touching me, like in public. And I was like, whoa. But at the time, you know, it's like I was younger then, but it was like, you don't want to cause a scene. You don't want to like, you know, there's other people there. You don't want them to see you freak out and then they don't want to work with you because they think you're a drama queen and like whatever else. And you know, and these are all, like I said, younger minded belief systems of mine that have obviously since changed now that I'm older. But like, was those kind of things where I was like, this is not worth it. You know, it's because it's becoming unsafe. And I don't want, you know, I don't want this to seem like I'm signing a. I'm signing some sort of invisible contract where I'm promising something to someone.
- [32:42]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. You know, and I think the concept of like being a young person in a situation where there's a power dynamic, like you're just, it's such this like hard thing to explain until you're in those situations where you referenced it earlier of like, I didn't want to make this person upset and I didn't want it to escalate where it could literally get to the point where it goes like, violent. So you kind of just like appease the situation. And I think that is where it can get really scary and it. And you keep just like, we just can appease people and like make it be like, oh, no, no, everything's fine, everything's fine. And it's like. But then you go home and you Feel, like, gross and shitty with you?
- [33:20]
Halsey
I had, like, a really strange situation a couple years ago. I mean, I guess it was quite a. It was quite a long time ago, but I was out, and I was with this executive, like, this really powerful executive who worked. Works in music in some capacity. And I'd been going out and, like, hanging out with him and, like, some other people at the company, and, like, you know, we were working together, and, like, everything was, like, really fine. Like, it was very just, like, celebratory. And, like, there was a lot of, like, industry talk. I didn't feel weird about it at all. And I, like, had, like, my two managers with me who were kind of, like, older guys, and, like, I never felt, like, unsafe or anything. We were out one night, and, like. Like, he was like, oh, like, I want to send a photo to, like, my niece of us together or something like that. And I was like, okay. And I, like, took out my phone. I took, like, a selfie, the two of us. And I handed him my phone, and I was like, text it to yourself. I have to pee. And then I went to the bathroom, and when I came back, he, like, handed me my phone like this. And I saw he was, like, going through my nudes on my phone.
- [34:23]
Alex Cooper
What is wrong with people?
- [34:24]
Halsey
And I, like, sat down, and I was, like. Actually didn't even know what to do. I was just, like, frozen. I was like, did I just imagine that? Was that an accident? Like, did the phone, like, scroll up? Like, what. What the heck just happened? And then I was like, did he text them to himself and then delete the messages? Like, I don't even know where these are now. Like, I was just, like. I was, like, frozen. And I was like, that's so crazy that, like, I'm in this situation where, like, I have so much power. I have a bodyguard. Like, I have a. I have a bodyguard, and I have, you know, all the leverage in the world. And I'm in this, like, exclusive space in this, like, vip. Like, you know, I've reached the ranks of, like, oh, I am protected, or, like, whatever else it may be. And then this invasive thing just happens, like, on a whim. And I was like, oh, my God. I was. I. It made me feel. I felt like it regressed me so much. Like, it made me feel. I went from being like, yeah, I'm, like, hot, and I'm one of the big players. Like, and I sat down. And when that happened, in that moment, I was like, you're nothing. You're nothing. You'll always be nothing. You're still just like that fucking girl who's, like, getting, you know, taken advantage of or like men are talking about you behind your back or you're some sort of, like, collateral. I was like, you're nothing. It was so demoralizing. It's so and so many worse things have happened to me than that. But that one stuck out for some reason because it was so nonchalant.
- [36:06]
Alex Cooper
Right? No, that, like, that's what I think. It's so. I appreciate you sharing the details even. Of like, you're where you at. You're in your career. You have a fucking bodyguard. And it's like, I think and you technically, like. Like we revert to that, like, little child of, like, men ruling the world and us just having to appease them. Like we were just talking about. And you in that moment, like, no, of course. And people be like, why didn't you just say something? It's like you don't get it until you're fucking in those moments where it's like there is kind of nothing to say, but even if you said something, then you're the crazy bitch that it's like, oh, and then someone calls you a slut because then what do you mean? What are you talking about? You're nudes. You take n. Like, they can turn it so fast on you.
- [36:48]
Halsey
Also, it's like, are you. Are you, like, a bad businesswoman? That's the other thing is, it's like, at what point, you know, where's the line between, like, I am a powerful woman, so I have to stand up to myself and the line between that and I'm a powerful woman, so I have to not let certain things bother me so that I can outplay these men in the long game. There's so much to think about in that moment. You know what I mean? It's like, am I going to let this bother me, this, like, pathetic, squirmy little worm action of this man when, like, I could just let it go and then I'll get the last laugh because I'm building my business and I'm looking out for my life and whatever. Or like, do I have a responsibility as a woman in a position of power to stand up for myself in that moment? I don't know which is what is expected of me.
- [37:31]
Alex Cooper
I don't think anyone in your position or anyone really in those moments knows what to do. Even, like, the highest of powered people, like. And I think that's why this is a really interesting conversation, because it's like, you. You're so fucking right. Had you said something and made a scene, then you're just like, oh, she's like, the crazy bitch. Like, no one work with her anymore. She, like, makes stuff up and she, like, uses her, like, sexual being parts of herself as, like, a way to, like, get people in trouble. We don't touch her anymore.
- [38:01]
Halsey
Like, she's like a black widow. She'll flirt with you and then she'll, like, screw you, like, later. I'm like, whoa, okay.
- [38:07]
Alex Cooper
And men don't have that experience where they're never being, like, overly sexualized in those moments. So, like, can't relate. Gotta go. Ew, she's crazy.
- [38:14]
Halsey
Yeah. Yeah. Get off of me. Whatever. Tw. Totally.
- [38:16]
Alex Cooper
It's not only is it the best interview because you're fabulous, it's also, like, I have been wanting to have these type of conversations with someone that gets it and can talk about it, but also is not, like, above it, where you're like, you are in it and you've experienced it. And I think so many young people are gonna be like, yeah, thank you for just talking about something that we don't have the answer to any of this.
- [38:37]
Halsey
No. Also, that's the thing. People look to us and they're like, so what do you do in those situations? Cause they're like, oh, thank you for sharing. So what's the solution? And you're like, I don't know.
- [38:45]
Alex Cooper
I don't know.
- [38:46]
Halsey
I'm still figuring that out.
- [38:47]
Alex Cooper
I don't know.
- [38:47]
Halsey
You know what I mean? Like, I'm still figuring out so many things. Like, I Even now, like, you know, I like, where are the lines? You know, like, sometimes it's just like, if someone's being, like, a little overly friendly, it's hard sometimes to be like, okay, is it, like, because they're excited to talk to me, or is it because they're like, they don't understand social cues? Or, like, you know, what is it? Or like, is this worth being? Like, yo, chill.
- [39:17]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. You know, And I think I had a situation that happened to me this past year, and I feel, like, odd because my show, you would expect me to immediately, like, run and sit in front of the camera and talk about it for all of the young people listening to me. I'm still trying to figure out, like, how to talk about that situation, because it is a work situation. And I'm like, I may see this person again. And it's a situation where, like, wow. Like, I don't think anyone would expect me to not Say something. And I didn't say something in that moment, and I was so uncomfortable. And it's like. I think the point is two people in seemingly positions of power are sitting here acknowledging today to young people that experience this, like, there is no answer. But I do think through a show like this and through your music, like, by us just talking about it, writing about it, singing about it, it just starts to, like, normalize more of the conversation. So people don't feel so ashamed to talk to even a friend. You don't have to report something immediately. Like, it doesn't have to go to the highest level. Just, like, acknowledging it, I feel like, is the first step to making some progress.
- [40:25]
Halsey
Absolutely. It's an ongoing conversation. Also, people don't like it when rules change. That's like. The other thing is, like, people also don't like it when you have, like, nuanced rules. You know, like, for example, like, I'm topless on my album cover for my fourth record, and it's like my nipple was in Target. Like, it's everywhere. But, like, people sometimes will just, like, walk into my dressing room and I'll be like, yo, the door. And it's like, the expectation is like, what? You showed everyone your tits? And I'm like, okay, well, I'm revoking that right in this moment. Like, I'm allowed to decide. I don't want you to see me naked right now just because you've seen me naked before. Like, I'm allowed to change my mind. Or like, someone's like, oh, like, you know, I saw you in this one interview with, like, this person, and you were like, so touchy feely and, like, so comfortable. It's like, why are you being so standoffish to me? And I'm like, I have a. Like, you don't know my relationship with that person separate of that interview. Or like, you don't know this. Or like, you know, I'm. I reserve the right to change what I'm comfortable with. But people don't like that because then they go, oh, she's so wishy washy. They're always changing their mind. Like, pick one. Like, what is it? And it's like, I'm allowed to change my mind.
- [41:31]
Alex Cooper
Not only are you allowed to change your mind, like, there are different boundaries per situations you're in in life of, like, you may have been having a really rough morning. And so, like, yeah, I'm not in the mood for this. And, like, no matter what the fuck you're in the mood for, that's okay. And people that make you feel uncomfortable or like you're being unreasonable, that is a red flag. Like, if something's. If someone is constantly coming at you and making you feel like you're over dramatic or you're being high maintenance and you're pause.
- [41:59]
Halsey
Or like, you took away the blanket consent that I thought you gave to all of us, and, like, I wanted that too. And, like, the reason they're reacting that way is because what they believe you've given them is, you know, with this, like, hypothetical blanket consent is like, they see an opportunity, that they want to leverage that for their own personal gain or their own whatever. And when you take it away, they're offended. It's like you've taken something from me and it's access to you.
- [42:25]
Alex Cooper
They feel like ownership over you in a way. Like that example of your nipple being in Target.
- [42:30]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [42:31]
Alex Cooper
You made a decision the day of your photo shoot to do something creative and artistic that you were comfortable with that day. That does not mean that everyone in the world, when you're walking down the street, can be like, I'm just gonna pull out my.
- [42:44]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [42:44]
Alex Cooper
Like, nipple free for everyone to see. Like.
- [42:46]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [42:47]
Alex Cooper
It's wild that they, like, people feel entitled. The entitlement to our bodies in moments. If you. It's crazy.
- [42:53]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [42:54]
Alex Cooper
I want to talk about romantic relationships.
- [42:56]
Halsey
Okay.
- [42:56]
Alex Cooper
Because we kind of started about your childhood, and I feel like again, what we've been kind of talking about is, like, they're all connected. Did you tend to fall in love easily when you were younger?
- [43:06]
Halsey
Not when I was younger. Actually. When I was younger. Like, when I was a young adult, definitely. When I was a teenager, not so much. I wasn't, like, super trusting. You know what I mean? When I was. I think, honestly, once I became famous, I think I fell in love faster because I was so desperate for, like, stability and, like, partnership and, like, I just wanted to be seen, and I wanted, like, a constant. And so, you know, I think that I, a lot of the time, would sort of project that onto people.
- [43:44]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [43:44]
Halsey
Like, you've ignored a lot of red flags, like, that kind of thing. And, like, not even, like, some of them super, like, insidious red flags, but some of them just, like, more harmless ones of, like, we're just not really compatible in that way. You know what I mean?
- [43:57]
Alex Cooper
You have talked about a relationship you had when you were 17. The guy was 24.
- [44:02]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Alex Cooper
And he was a pretty big drug addict and was into drugs. What drew you to that person initially?
- [44:10]
Halsey
I'm a fixer I am a fixer. I'm like, I can fix you. I can fix you. Like, you know, I. It's funny. I felt like becoming a mom was so natural to me. I struggle with it in the same way that every mom does. But at the end of the day, I think I had so much blanket patience because of how much, much time I spent trying to, like, fix and mother people up until that point where, like, my. My, like, patience for someone not growing the way you want them to or as fast as you want them to or, like, whatever was, like, already so established.
- [44:50]
Alex Cooper
But you're like, I've been a mother way before my child.
- [44:53]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [44:53]
Alex Cooper
Seriously, I've been mothering these men for a long time. No, that makes sense. And I think it's, again, like, interesting to hear you talk about a dynamic that can be, like, someone struggling so much with an addiction. Like, I had a relationship with someone that struggled a lot with addiction, and I was very young, and he was older than me.
- [45:12]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Alex Cooper
And I remember the power imbalance was, like, so ever present, and I would feel so insecure, and I would want to, like. I think when you're the person that's not. Not in the position of power, you find yourself, like, doing things to try to, like, even the playing field.
- [45:31]
Halsey
Totally.
- [45:32]
Alex Cooper
It's like kind of you appeasing them and doing what they want you to do so you feel closer to them.
- [45:37]
Halsey
Absolutely.
- [45:38]
Alex Cooper
Did you experience that with this relationship?
- [45:40]
Halsey
Yeah. I mean, I dated a lot of addicts. Like, that was a kind of a reoccurring theme for me until I was just like, okay, no. You know, and, like, I think that, you know, part of. The. Part of the problem, I think, when you're romantically involved with someone who is in active addiction is that there's no logic. Right. So you try to reason with them, and you try to go, like, okay, well, can't you see that if you do this, then it hurts me, and then I feel this way? Or, like, you did that. I watched you do it. And it's like they live in a completely different reality that they've constructed to, you know, as a survival mechanism to not think about the fact that they're an active addiction. You know what I mean? So it's like you're arguing with someone or you're reasoning with someone based on reality, and, like, that's not their reality. So there. There's no. You can't. You can't, like, reason with someone who's not living in a world of reason. And then it turns into, like, this cognitive dissonance, like, thought spiral where you start to feel like you're crazy.
- [46:46]
Alex Cooper
You start to go insane because there's no growth. It feels like growth when they're. It's a loop, right? They're not on drugs. So then you're getting closer, and you feel like, oh, we're so back. And then it happens again. And then you're like, wait, no, but then. And the progress. That feels like progress. It's just. You're just getting a little bit back to, like, normal. It's like. It's a really, really difficult spiral that I, like, empathize with anyone going through it right now that's listening of, like, you're not crazy. And I do agree that a lot of people in those positions want to fix things. You can't fix someone that's going through that. And I think a lot of times we feel like we can. Yeah, you can't. And I. I know it's easier said than done, but, like, once you get out of those moments, you obviously have clarity. But when you're in it, like, I just have empathy for, like, friends going through it or people listening. Like, it's hard. And again, there is no solution that we're providing today. I think it's just, like, talking about the real that you go through.
- [47:39]
Halsey
I needed someone to tell me at that time, like, you're not a bad person if you leave someone who's, like, hurting you. You know what I mean? Because, like, I was always kind of like. Like, making excuses for those things and being like, oh, but what kind of person am I if I leave someone who's, like, in this great of need, and I really needed someone to be like, baby, that is not your responsibility. You know what I mean? Especially because I was just so young. And also I had to unlearn this thing that I was going through at that time where I was like, I've spent so long in just, like, misery wanting to fix this person. What if they get better one day and then someone else gets to have the better version of them that I worked so hard to build? And you're. And it's like, that is what kept me in. It was being like, well, no, one day, like, they're gonna get better, and then someone else is gonna get to have the version of them. And I always dreamed what existed. And all I got was just, like, the suffering. And then what am I? I'm just like, the lesson. I'm the martyr. I'm the catalyst. I exist in their life just so that they could go be better for someone else. And I was, like, determined to not have that because it also. It felt like losing. I'd also deconstruct that, too. That thing of, like, winning and losing. I was like, no, baby, this is your life. This isn't about winning or losing, you know? I don't know. Sorry. It was intense.
- [48:59]
Alex Cooper
I'm more just, like, speechless because I don't think I've ever heard someone, like, articulate it so perfectly that I can imagine everyone listening right now is like, maybe, like, pulling over to the side of the road just, like, have a pause because it's so fucking real. Of, like, most of those relationships, you go to the very possible end, to the point that, like, you even are at risk of your own life when you go that far down with someone. So to leave feels like. But what was this all for?
- [49:28]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [49:28]
Alex Cooper
And it's like, it's just gonna keep going.
- [49:30]
Halsey
Yeah. It feels like giving up, but it's not. It's like making. You're making, like, a. It's like, it is a hard choice. I think that I started learning, like, in a way, you really do become someone when you're spending that amount of time with them and you're, like, connecting with them on an energetic level. That much. We're now, like, if I look at my partner and I wouldn't want to be them, if I wouldn't want to be just like them, then, like, I probably shouldn't be with them. Like, you should kind of really only be spending that amount of time and putting that much love and connection and vulnerability into a person if, like, you know, if you would be okay becoming them as a result.
- [50:11]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [50:12]
Halsey
You know, you're preaching right now.
- [50:15]
Alex Cooper
I'm like, keep going. You're giving us a TED Talk. In one of your poems, you wrote, I won't love a man unless he is angry because of my father.
- [50:40]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [50:41]
Alex Cooper
How did normalizing anger in these relationships that you were having make you more willing to put up with the things that they were doing?
- [50:52]
Halsey
I think that I. Well, first of all, I had to change the way that I talk to myself. You know what I mean? Like, I had a therapist once who was like. Was like. I was. I was talking to them about a partner, and I was like, they just, like, constantly tell me or make me feel like I'm not special or, like, you know, I'm. Like, I'm embarrassing or, like, I'm weak or I'm like. I don't know. Just, like, all these things, and the person was like, okay, well, can I ask you a question? Like, do you think you're special? And I was like, no. I was like, I'm. No, I don't. Like what? Like, I'm better than everybody else. No, I think that she was not asked. You asked you, do you think you're special? And I was like, no. I was like, and what do you tell yourself, like, in those situations? Like, how do you talk to yourself? And I was like, well, I just try to remind myself, like, you know, like, you have to be humble and like, you're not better than everybody else, and like, you're not special. And like, you know. And she was like, okay. She was like, so if that's how you talk to yourself, then when someone else talks to you the same way, you're not going to notice that that's out of the norm. You know what I mean? Like, that's. If you're. If you're. If you're communicating with yourself in that way, like, if you believe those things, you know, I was like, yeah, but it's one thing for me to humble myself, but I want my partner to build me up. And they were like, no, you have to build yourself up. That's not. You can't depend on another person to do that. Which was a really interesting conversation because. Because I feel like sometimes we go into therapy so often when we're struggling with relationships and we're like, what's wrong with all these people? And then there comes a part where you have to take responsibility, you know, like, one of the things I start. I had to take responsibility for, to end up in a healthy relationship was sort of this, like, toxic empathy and like, this sort of, like, toxic. Not, like, people pleasing. But I was like. I was realizing that if I don't set clear boundaries for myself and people repeatedly cross those boundaries, it's my fault because I'm not giving them. I'm not communicating with them or giving them a chance to learn that that's a boundary. And then also it's building up, building up, building up, building up. And then I'm blowing up out of resentment. But they're confused because I never told them that that boundary was being crossed. And so, you know, that was a moment of where I was like, oh, God, like, I have to also take responsibility, you know, or like. Cause I went through a phase, I think, where I was really, like, I don't even. Like, I don't even ask my partner for anything. Like, I take care of all my own stuff. I don't Bring myself into the relationship. Like I'm not asking them to like support me or emotionally, whatever. Like I literally just like, I take care of all my own shit and I take care of them and like still they can't even like be there for me in the 5%. I'm actually asking them to. And she was like, well, you're not showing up. Honestly. She was like, you're not being yourself. She was like, you think that they're being like dishonest or they're being disingenuous, like, bitch, so are you. And just because you think it's in a nice way doesn't mean that it's okay. Like you're not like this like self sacrificing act or whatever is actually you showing up and lying to them. And that shook me because when she first said it I was like, well, no, I'm, I didn't do anything wrong.
- [54:08]
Alex Cooper
I was like, why are you telling.
- [54:09]
Halsey
Me I did something wrong? And then I had to look at that and I had to be like, damn. Okay, you're right. Right. You're right. If I'm showing up dishonestly, even if it's well intending.
- [54:17]
Alex Cooper
Right.
- [54:17]
Halsey
I'm just as bad as it them.
- [54:19]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, you have a great therapist. Who is the therapist. We all need this person. No, it's so true. Like not communicating something to your partner that you're like, something is like festering inside of you and you're watching it all the time being so upset and they have no idea you're upset about it. It's like, how would they know you're upset if you don't tell them you're upset in, in one of your new songs, Panic Attack. I was listening to it and I was like, this is the most relatable thing I've ever heard. And so many people when they hear the song are like, yes, thank you, Halsey. I am, I have, I have two been there. You talk about struggling essentially to differentiate, like, am I having this like these panic attack feelings or am I falling in love and like what is the difference? Can you talk about from your experience, like how those two are kind of similar in the beginning phase of a relationship?
- [55:11]
Halsey
Yeah, I think like, you know, if you're like anxiously attached, like you kind of get those feelings of like nervousness, like, and it's really easy to misinterpret those. I said this a long time ago. I have like a song from like a couple years ago from an album, Manic, a song called Graveyard, where like in the bridge, I Say, it's funny how the warning signs can feel like butterflies, you know? And so, like, I've kind of touched on this before. Panic Attack is like a more expanded version of it, which is like, you know, there is that moment kind of like, you know, your heart's freaking beating out of its chest when their name pops up on your phone. What's that about? Is it because you're now entering this, like, dopamine cycle of, like, you know, you actually aren't sure. Like, if you're not sure, they're going to answer you, and then it excites you and they do. I don't think that's love. I don't think so. You shouldn't be putting that level of energy into a person if you're not sure that they're gonna have the decency to respond to your message.
- [56:07]
Alex Cooper
It's so confusing. And I love that you brought up graveyard, because I was, like, gonna reference that and I'm like, no, but we have, like, a new and improved version. Yeah, Panic Attack over here they are. And I feel like those butterfly warning signs are so easily misconstrued in the beginning phase. And I empathize a lot because it's hard until you start to just have your life experiences and go through multiple relationships. And it's that again, us not giving you guys the answer, but knowing, like, the more you experience, the easier it is to kind of be like, oh, no, no, no. I've felt that way before and I know how this goes down. Like, I need to pump the brakes. But the beginning of relationships can be very hard to discern.
- [56:48]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [56:49]
Alex Cooper
Is this excitement or is this because this person is essentially like, love bombing me or whatever the fuck is going on, or is it, like, slightly mentally abusive? But I'm seeing it as like, he finally is giving me attention. Oh, my God, I'm amazing.
- [57:03]
Halsey
Validation also toxic. Like, toxicity in relationships is addictive. It is. It's absolutely addictive. It's just like a cycle of, like, norepinephrine. Like, that's like an adrenaline chemical, you know what I mean? And like dopamine and, like, you start to build patterns and, like, neural pathways to the ups and downs of feeling that, like, rejection, validation. Rejection, validation. Rejection, validation. And I remember when I kind of like, when I had had, like, some distance from, like, my most toxic relationship, and I was in relationships that were, like, a little bit more content. I do remember at times being kind of like. And I don't want to say this as any kind of, like, diss to the people who might hear themselves in this conversation, because, you know, this isn't a diss, but I did find myself kind of bored and, like, not bored with them, but bored with the lack of intensity and the lack of the up and down and kind of just like, wondering if, because I had experienced such highs and lows in a toxic relationship, if every other form of love was going to feel, like, less than satisfactory to me.
- [58:19]
Alex Cooper
So real. Yeah, like, that's so real.
- [58:23]
Halsey
It's not true, because I'm very much in love now and I'm getting. Yeah, I'm in all the.
- [58:28]
Alex Cooper
I see that ring, girl.
- [58:31]
Halsey
I will say to anyone listening, that's not true. But I do think there's a period of time where, like, safety comes, where you just kind of feel like it just doesn't hit the same and, like, you can't go back. I definitely was like, oh, I wonder if I'm just going to be like, what is it for me? Is it contentment? Is it settling? Is it settling for safety? Do I get to have that same intensity without all of the danger? You know?
- [59:00]
Alex Cooper
And I feel like something I had to learn along the way and it's. Everyone has to, like, take their time with it is like, you're right, the toxicity is addicting. But there's such a difference between, like, safe and boring or just not the same thing. And it can take you a really long time. But understandably, if you're on this fucking roller coaster ride and then you're slowly just, like, sitting in the little. The, like, the game that you're just, like, riding around and it's slow, you're like, this isn't fucking fun. I want to be screaming my head off and I want to have my hair all over the place.
- [59:30]
Halsey
It's like, what if we told you that, like, 10 people died on that ride, like, last week? And you're like, well, it was fun, though. Like, you know what I mean?
- [59:35]
Alex Cooper
And keep going back. And it's like, why do we do this to ourselves? Because I was going to ask you about, like, you have written about these, like, volatile relationships that you've been in. And, like, when you do get out of them, I guess you just answered it of, like, what do you learn about yourself then when you get into new relationships that aren't as volatile? And it's like, I guess your answer was, like, kind of learning to be okay with peace a little bit more.
- [59:57]
Halsey
Yes and no.
- [59:58]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [59:58]
Halsey
Because then what happened was, is I was like, okay, I guess this is it. I guess I'm just settling for contentment. And then I realized that that wasn't true either. That was me putting safety before my happiness. You know what I mean?
- [60:12]
Alex Cooper
Cause I was gonna say, like, if you have any advice to maybe someone that's watching this right now that is, like, fully in that cycle of. Of whether it's with an abusive partner or a toxic partner and they just can't get out of it, and they're like, but I'll never find something that makes me feel, oh, you will.
- [60:28]
Halsey
You will. You have to heal first. When you get out, it's not going to feel that way right away because you need to heal. And then, like, that new healed version of you is gonna, like, you know, I don't know. It's kind of like when you get a wound and then, you know, the wound hurts and it hurts and it hurts, but at least you're feeling something, and then it scars and the scar is numb and you're like, I don't have no feeling here. But then eventually, new skin grows and you get to feel again, but it's not. It doesn't hurt. You know what I mean?
- [60:53]
Alex Cooper
No. It's so. It's so hard to tell people when they're in it. We're like, I'm promising. I know if you leave and you get out of it and you heal, it's going to get better. I want to ask you, like, as an artist, because I feel like a lot of people have these moments where they collaborate with someone they were in a relationship with, and you've done that in the past, and you have this, like, very famous song with someone that you have, like, talked about, like, not having a good relationship with. Can you describe the feeling of, like, having a piece of art tied to a very, like, hurtful and not, like, positive experience?
- [61:29]
Halsey
I think the one thing I've been really smart about is they're never my songs. I'm always on their songs. So then, like, that's your problem, not mine. I get to do my whole catalog and I don't have to deal with you. So, like, sorry that. That some of your biggest songs have me on them. I don't know what to tell you, but I tend to be sort of the gatekeepy about my art for that same reason where I'm like, yeah, I'll get on your thing, but, like, not mine, you know, like, this needs to. This. I need to preserve this for. For myself. You know, I think whether I'm on a record with someone and are and, like, you know, the relationship changes or not. Or I just wrote a song about them. Like, songs just carry so much cellular energy, but the good thing about them is that they do evolve, you know, I mean, like, I've gotten on stage and sang the same song, like, over. Like, I've. I've been singing without me for years, you know, and every time I sing it, it feels different. Feels like it's about a different thing. And, like, you know, I have so many songs that are about so many different times in my life or, like, experiences. And, like, I don't know. I think that. I think that I'll never shy away from being honest. You know, it's like. And if you have to deal with the consequences of that later, then so be it. But, like, I would rather regret. I would rather regret being honest and being reflective of where I was in my life at that time than regret not saying something or doing something that I wish that I had. I don't know. I just.
- [63:02]
Alex Cooper
It's a great answer.
- [63:04]
Halsey
Yeah. No features on this album, though. Just me. Nobody else getting in the way of my narrative period.
- [63:10]
Alex Cooper
There is a ring on your finger. We've gone through childhood. We've gone through your previous relationships and going through the mud to get to. Congratulations. You're engaged.
- [63:21]
Halsey
Yes, I am married.
- [63:24]
Alex Cooper
I know. It's crazy. It's insane.
- [63:26]
Halsey
I have to get all the tea from you.
- [63:28]
Alex Cooper
No, I have to tell you everything.
- [63:29]
Halsey
Tea.
- [63:30]
Alex Cooper
It's insane. And it still feels weird to say, like, I have a husband. Like, what is happening? You're a fiance.
- [63:36]
Halsey
I know.
- [63:37]
Alex Cooper
This is exciting. How did the proposal happen? Can you tell me?
- [63:40]
Halsey
Sweet.
- [63:41]
Alex Cooper
Tell me.
- [63:42]
Halsey
So he proposed in Barcelona. It's kind of like, where we first started hanging out. So it's, like, really special to us because we had this, like, kind of this show these few days where we were, like, we were hanging out a bunch, and it was very, like, not. You know, I wasn't sure that I was ready. And so it's kind of like, you know, But I was also kind of like, you're literally the like, most amazing, like, smartest, hottest, nicest person I've ever met in my life. So I was like, please don't go anywhere. I'm gonna. I'm trying to figure it out. Like, you know what I mean?
- [64:21]
Alex Cooper
Stay here. Just, like, give me a little time.
- [64:22]
Halsey
Yeah. And, you know, so he. Yeah, he proposed in Barcelona. It was really sweet. And immediately afterwards left to go shoot a show for, like, six months in Canada. And I was like, okay, bye.
- [64:37]
Alex Cooper
Stop.
- [64:38]
Halsey
Yeah, so we. We haven't really had, like, the chance to be, like, engaged. You know what I mean? But he's coming home and, you know, just the time for me to go start, like, all the album promo or whatever. And, you know, I think we're gonna get to have, like, our. Our time then. But I never wanted to be married.
- [64:57]
Alex Cooper
Interesting.
- [64:58]
Halsey
Never?
- [64:59]
Alex Cooper
Never. What changed?
- [65:01]
Halsey
Aven? Yeah. I don't know. I never thought that I would ever want to be married. And then, like, I. I just knew I wanted to marry him. And I couldn't explain why, because I would deconstruct marriage, like, from such a logical perspective beforehand. Like, I was so, like, practical sur, like, you know, like, fiscal, like, about it. Like, you know, the way that I was. I always broke down marriage and, like, I couldn't really understand the point of marrying just from, like, an emotional point of view. It was like, well, if you love each other, then just be together. Why don't you get married?
- [65:31]
Alex Cooper
Yes.
- [65:31]
Halsey
I didn't understand it. And then, I don't know. It was just something with him where I just knew I wanted to marry him. And, like, I can't even explain why. You know what I mean? Cause I do. I love him in such a way that I feel like we would be just. Is fine if we didn't. But something about that makes me want to do it more.
- [65:50]
Alex Cooper
I relate a lot to what you're saying because I was very vocal. Like, even when I met Matt, I was like, I don't want to get married. I never want to get married. Like, I thought it would threaten my independence. I was. I felt the same way. Like, why do we need a piece of paper? And then I just, like, knew he was the person if I was going to do it. And I think that's so beautiful that it was just like something within you is like, I know this is right.
- [66:13]
Halsey
I just knew.
- [66:13]
Alex Cooper
And that's like, how did you guys meet? Meet?
- [66:15]
Halsey
We met kind of just, like, floating around. He was, like, floating around Europe. And so was I. We were both doing like, some, like, Fashion Week stuff and some. Like, I was playing some festivals and, like, you know, we. I. We'd been, like, aware of each other. Like, we followed each other on Instagram. You know what I mean? But it was like. And we. Neither of us can really remember if we had, like, met in passing before that, I think I would remember. So I don't think we have. Okay. You know what I mean? But I always. I had, like, always had, like, a weird feeling about him, you know? And then, you know, I got pregnant and I was, you know, with my son's father. And then like, I didn't have any feelings about anyone. Cause I was like, super committed to like, making my family work. And like, you know, this new life is like a mom with like my son. And so like, I wasn't really thinking about any of that kind of stuff. And then I became a single mom and I was like, I am never dating anyone ever again and it's gonna be. I had so much to figure out. I was like, it's just me and my son. Like, you know. And I was also really sick. I was really sick in like a life changing way. I was like, not thinking about dating at all.
- [67:25]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [67:26]
Halsey
And so then we met. We like met up for a drink one night. And I just remember walking into this bar, this like, hotel bar. And he was just like sitting in this like, little beer garden at the hotel. And I walked in and I saw him. And the only way I can explain it was. Is like, you know, like a vampire movie when the vampire, like glamours you, like, they do that thing that makes you like. Yes.
- [67:49]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, whatever.
- [67:50]
Halsey
Like, it felt like that was happening to me. Like, I walked in all like, I walked in and I was like, hey. And he was like, hi. And I was like, hi.
- [67:57]
Alex Cooper
Hi.
- [67:58]
Halsey
Okay.
- [67:59]
Alex Cooper
He. Edward coloned you.
- [68:00]
Halsey
No, he straight up, like, mind tricked me. Like, and he wasn't doing it on purpose. He just is very charming. You know what I mean?
- [68:07]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [68:08]
Halsey
And I was just like, whoa. There was just like this like this warmth and this like, light just like emanating off of him. It was so compelling. It was so alluring. I just like sitting at the table, just wanted to lean over the table, sit closer to him. Like, I was so just like drawn to him. Like, I don't know how to explain it. It was so. It was different than like when you meet someone and you're like. I could see this working and I'm like planning in my head and I'm like doing the calculation of like, how this would work out. And like, okay. You're like that. And I'm like this. And this would be good. It was just like. I was like, whoa. I was head empty. I was not head full of. I'm going to get him math. I was head empty. I was just like, hi. Yeah. I don't know.
- [68:51]
Alex Cooper
We're all just like swooning in here. Like, whoa. Keep going. No, that is like, that's when you know there's something special.
- [68:57]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [68:57]
Alex Cooper
What if you had to say what do you love the most about him?
- [69:03]
Halsey
That's hard. I mean, he's so like freakishly, like, adjusted isn't the right word, but like, there's nothing I could ever bring up that would freak him out. There's like no conversation we can't have like in like, he's so solution oriented. Like, everything between the two of us is always like, it's always with the goal of solution and bettering and like, you know, we're never like locked into like, who's going to win this or who's going to whatever. Also, he's just like. I remember when I first, when I first started seeing him, I was like, what's it going to be? I was like, you are like super successful. You've been in this business for like a really long time. You, you were smoking hot and everyone on the planet knows it. I was like, what's wrong with you? And he was so nice and he was so family oriented. And like, I was like, oh, you're about to be the biggest psychopath of them all.
- [70:13]
Alex Cooper
You're about to ruin my life.
- [70:14]
Halsey
You're about to be the final boss. Like, you can't be like this. I was like, there's gonna be. Whatever's wrong with you is gonna be like FBI's most wanted. Like, you're gonna be secretly like, have bodies in your basement. Like something. You have to have the worst thing ever wrong with you. And then it was like I was kind of like unsure for like a while. And then like, you know, as time went on. Well, first I met his parents and they're fucking lovely. And so that's where I was kind of like, oh, maybe this is real. Maybe he is just that great. Because he's great. Parents like raised him really well.
- [70:43]
Alex Cooper
Yep.
- [70:43]
Halsey
And then, you know, he, he has got his relationship with my son now, you know, and just like watching the way that he shows up for my son in like such a authentic way, I was like, okay, you really are just like the best person. And then came the panic of me being like, well, I don't deserve someone that great. And so I had to kind of like, it was short lived, but I had that little process of like, whoa, oh my God, if he really is that great, then like, what the hell is he doing with me? You know? And I. And then I had to kind of like, I had to start seeing myself. I had to value myself more, you know what I mean? Where I had to be like, well, I'm also really ambitious and I'm a really good mom. And like, I create like a really welcoming and like safe environment. I'm really patient, I'm really communicative and I'm rational and I am, you know, supportive and proactive. And like, I had to start seeing myself like, in that way. Yeah. To have peace and to not enter like a cycle of insecurity, you know.
- [71:45]
Alex Cooper
Dude, that must have been so refreshing because I think when you are met by a, a healthy, good partner who we all have our own shit, but like someone that's genuinely trying to be like, no, I really want to make this work and I don't want to fuck you up and I don't want to be fucked up and I want to do this together. Like, you just start to raise your standard for yourself of like how you are going to show up. And like you said, it's so beautiful like with your child knowing how you care for a whole ass human being and how you show up for your child to see a partner like come into your life and be able to not only like embrace you guys, but also add value to the dynamic. Like, that's so fucking refreshing and probably nice for you.
- [72:29]
Halsey
Yeah. It also forced me to do everything, like, really, really in the right way. You know what I mean? Becoming a single mom was like a real grown up wake up call for me. That was like a moment where I was like, I can't just like, like, you know, skirt past this. Like, you know, this has changed the entire dynamic of my life. Like, it's changed everything about like my own feelings of hurt and wanting to act on those versus like what's right for my child. And like, you know, I had to, I had to like, I had already like speedrun grown up when I became a mom. But then I had to like secondary, like speedrun grow up where like I grew out of that not wanting to be inconvenient or not wanting to be a problem or not wanting to be clingy or not wanting to be extra. Like, I had to grow out of that to date again as a single mom. Whereas like, I wasn't in a situation where like, you know, I'm. If you're like, I couldn't be in a situation where I'm like texting a guy or like a girl or talking to whoever and I'm like, hey, so like, do you want to make plans for next week? And they're like, oh, I'm not really like big into plans. Like, I'll see you when I see you. Like, I couldn't be like, okay, like, how do you make. I'm a mom. I have a schedule. Do you want to see me or not? And if you don't, then, like, by. You know what I mean? And so it was like, I. It just, like, it forced me out of being able to, like, accidentally, like, people, please, I guess, like, make myself smaller because I was like, I can't. So, like, what's up?
- [73:58]
Alex Cooper
You know, that is, like, so beautiful to hear. And I'm so happy for you in, like, everything you've shared today. I feel like that has, like, beautifully led you to where you're at now, where, like, you are engaged, you are a mother. Like, you are so successful. You have this new album coming out, which we have to talk about. Like, like I said, I was listening to it. I'm like, there is a lot in this album, and it's called the Great Impersonator. What is the meaning behind the title? What is the meaning behind the title?
- [74:42]
Halsey
I think it's, you know, it's sort of. It's like a double entendre.
- [74:48]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [74:48]
Halsey
You know, like, on the one hand, I think it kind of touches on some of what we've talked about this time, was there's me figuring out that Halsey's kind of serving as more of an alter ego than, like, just a stage name.
- [74:57]
Alex Cooper
Yep.
- [74:57]
Halsey
And, like, kind of admitting that and, like, coming forward and being like, I've built a career off of being really honest and authentic, and maybe I haven't been as honest and authentic as I thought lot the past couple years. I. Maybe I have more to say. And what forced me into that was obviously getting so sick that I thought I was gonna die. You know, like, when you think you're gonna die, you have an existential crisis that is just, like, indescribable to your former self. Like, you kind of have to, like, live through it to understand it. And, like, I just started looking at myself and being like, okay, if you do die, is this. You're happy with this. This is how everyone's gonna remember you. It's like, the last thing you did. Last thing you said, like, have. You know, we tell ourselves a lot of time. We have more time, and, like, we do, but, like, nothing is promised to us. So there's times where I was like, like, example, like the song about my dad. I told you. I was like. I was like, I'll do it on the next album. I'll do it on the next album. Because I was too scared. And with this one, I was like, might not be a next album, bitch. Put it out. Speak your truth. There might not be a next album, you know? And so it kind of, like, forced me into the situation where I was like, I have to just act and do and be as truthful as I possibly can. But I started thinking about fate a lot. I started thinking like, okay, does everything happen for a reason? Right? Like, I'm born in 1994. Does that. Is that how I end up, Halsey, is because, like, I'm born at the right time, at the right moment. Like, if I'm born 10 years earlier, five years later, do I end up famous? Do I end up an art teacher? Do I end up, like, in jail? Like, what am I? You know? And then, so I was like, what if I debuted in the 70s? Like, what if I debuted in the 80s, the 90s? Like, I started exploring all these different, like, versions of me making music in, like, different decades. So in a sense, I'm kind of, like, impersonating other, you know, stars of. Of that time and kind of doing an exploration or like, a thought experiment on that, because it's like the big thing that kept coming up when I got sick was a lot of people, like, in the medical field were pretty adamant with me, like, you're sick because of your job.
- [77:04]
Alex Cooper
Interesting.
- [77:05]
Halsey
Some said it just directly in some, you know, in not so many words, just kind of like. Well, like, stress and, like, lack of sleep and traveling and jet lag, poor nutrition, putting strain on your body. Like, these things can trigger autoimmune diseases. And the particular autoimmune disease that have lupus can trigger, you know, it can trigger leukemia, lymphoma. Like, a lot of. A lot of, like, blood cancers and, like, lymph cancers are more. More common in people who have chronic, you know, autoimmune conditions. And so they all kind of just trickle down to this, like, you're stressed out all the time kind of thing. So that led me to be, like, you know, becoming Halsey was, like, the craziest thing that's ever happened to me in my life. But, like, is this a consequence of that? You know? And, like, does it go this way? No matter what, if I become Halsey, is this how my life goes? Am I a single mom? Am I sick? Am I, like, is there any way to, like, beat that fate or beat that destiny?
- [78:02]
Alex Cooper
Can I ask, like, how are you feeling today?
- [78:04]
Halsey
Pretty good. Yeah. I, like, I came back from. I came back from New York. I was there for the VMAs, and I noticed I was kind of starting to have a flare, like a lupus flare, okay. And I haven't had one in a little while because, you know, my disease has been, like, you know, in remission. And I was kind of, like, thinking about it. I was thinking about how, like, a lot of my fans or a lot of my audience that's also dealing with chronic illness, they say to me all the time, like, I don't know how you do that. Like, you must be so much stronger than me. Like, I can really get out of bed, or I can barely go to school. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want you thinking that I'm stronger than you, or, like, you can't accomplish as much as me. Like, I went and did the VMAs. I worked really hard that whole week, and then I had a flare as a consequence of that. That's reality. That's the risk. And you guys, like, the fans, like, you're the reward.
- [78:59]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [78:59]
Halsey
And I have to kind of, like, balance that. Every time I do something, it's just, like, knowing that that's a possibility and kind of adapting to that new normal. And, like, so what happens then is, like, I have to rest or I have to go get treatment or I to, like, you know, I have to change certain things. But it's by no means, because, like, I'm built differently than anyone else. It's like, I'm also in a significant position of privilege compared to most people who are dealing with chronic illness, you know, in terms of, like, you know, the treatments I can get, the access that I can get, like. And so I'm just using all those things to kind of. To mitigate what is my new normal. I definitely had a situation, like, a couple. A couple, like, weeks ago. And that's why I'm kind of, like, chuckling to myself about this flare, because I did the thing where I was like, I'm feeling so good, I don't know if I need treatment anymore. And so I was like, I'm gonna stop treatment. Like, I don't want to put this stuff in my body. Like, I'm gonna be fine. It's like, also, like, bitch, you didn't learn your lesson. You did that with antidepressants, like, first of all. But then, like, you know, I was like, I'm feeling really good. Like, I don't think I need to do it anymore. And, like, you know, I'm putting all this. These medicines in my body, and, like, maybe I can just do it with, like, diet and, like, with whatever. And I stopped for, like, a Little bit. I like skipped a treatment. Immediate flare. I was like on the flight home and like one of the first signs of a lupus flare is you get this butterfly shaped rash across your cheeks.
- [80:23]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [80:24]
Halsey
I got up to go use the restroom on the plane, I looked in the mirror and I was like, you've got to be kidding me. No. And I kind of like had to like, I like walk ashamed back to my seat and like sat down and was like damn. That was a sad moment for me because I was like, I had felt so good. Like you know, I was like on TV and on the carpet and I was like, I'm doing it again, I'm great and everything's good. And like it made me like kind of emotional cuz I was kind of like, I'm still sick, that's still reality. Like this is forever now. That was hard, you know, I couldn't just be like, well that was crazy those two years. Hahaha. Moving on. Like I had to be like, no, this is still, this is forever. I'm still like coming to terms with that like little by little.
- [81:04]
Alex Cooper
I can only imagine how hard that is. And like I, I think in different capacities everyone can find a way to relate to that feeling of like, oh no, no no, I don't need this anymore, I'm going to be fine. And then it, you go back to not being fine and you're like, this is so emotionally heavy to deal with. But I do think that it's incredible that you have, have been open as much as you want to be about that because I do again believe it helps other people realize like someone that is as successful as you also is just not living this perfect fairy tale life and everything's fine. Like everything you're writing about in this album is so real. Like what is the hardest song that like you wrote like to write?
- [81:44]
Halsey
The Life of the Spider.
- [81:46]
Alex Cooper
Really?
- [81:46]
Halsey
Yeah, that was like the hardest. It's like just like me in a piano kind of sounds like a voice note like a little bit and every time I hear it I cry. Just like hearing my voice like in that state. And I wrote that song about being sick and about just like feeling like such a burden and also just feeling disgusting. I felt so gross and so terrible about myself when I was sick. It's like, you know, I was like, like I was really gaunt and like my face changed and my face had just, my face and body had just changed because I just had a baby, you know, I was pregnant and like I went through all those changes and then it changed again like this when I got sick so fast, you know, and I was like vomiting. But then like, you know, I was brushing my teeth, made me scared because I was scared it was going to induce more vomiting. And like, I was. I was just so sick and so gross and like, I felt revolting. Like I didn't feel good about myself at all. And like, you know, I felt. I felt, you know, kind of trapped in like this cycle of feeling resentment from people close to me. You know, some real, some imagined, you know, think both classic and just kind of this feeling of like everyone had depended on me for so long. And I kind of like, it was a hell of my own design because I told everybody for so long, like, I don't need help, I can take care of myself. And then I needed help and everybody was like, what do you mean? Like, you conditioned us to believe that you take care of yourselves. And now you're getting mad at us because we're not helping, but we don't know how to because you've never let us before, you know, and so that was really, really hard. But also just kind of feeling like, God, what a. How dare I inconvenience you so much by being. Dying, I was gonna say.
- [84:01]
Alex Cooper
But again, going back to everything you've shared today, like you're used to being the one that's taking care of and fixing everyone. So like, to ask for help must feel just so unnatural to you. But like, you need help from people, you need support, you need people to be there for you. But it's hard to ask when you're someone that is not used to asking.
- [84:22]
Halsey
A big thing for me was like a lot of my relationships I felt like because I'm traveling all the time and because I'm gone and because I am really like insulated and self sufficient in that way where it's like, you know, I feel like when you're in the public eye or like you are like, you know, you're financially like secure in the way that like you are in the business, it changes your friendships, right? It's like, I'm moving, right? I don't have to ask my friends to come help me move because I'm just gonna move like at the moving company and do the thing or like I need someone to pick me up from a surgery or like take me to the dentist or like, you know, whatever, and it's like, I'll get a driver. It's like, you know, you lose that kind of like village community, we look out for each other kind of thing. But then on the flip side, I'm always taking care of stuff for other people, you know what I mean? So it changes the dynamics of the relationship. I'm also a spiritual person, so I also believe sometimes that like you will end up in situations where if you're like spirit guide or your guardian angel or whatever it is that you believe knows that you won't make a hard decision for yourself, they'll kind of put you in a position where the other person does it for you, but it's for you. You know what I mean?
- [85:29]
Alex Cooper
Yes. Like, you can feel it when it's happening.
- [85:31]
Halsey
Yeah.
- [85:31]
Alex Cooper
This whole album is incredible. I'm so excited for you. Last two questions, I promise. One, what are you most excited to perform? What song?
- [85:40]
Halsey
Okay, there's two for two different reasons. I really can't wait to play Panic Attack because it's just like such a musical song. Like, it's got like the piano, the piano is so warm and the guitar is so great and the drums are so like. I just imagine I'm gonna get on stage and feel like I'm a part of like a big, like a 70s big band, you know what I mean? And like with all the musicians on stage just like twirling around like it's very Laurel Canyon. Like, you know, it's got that like Fleetwood Mac vibe. So I can't wait to do that because I just feel like it's going to be so like classic, but then definitely the only living girl in la. It's a six minute song, so like, I don't know how I'm gonna play it live, but I think there's so many fun moments for the fans to like, join in on like ad libs and stuff. But it's gonna feel like like we're performing it together. And I love when a song feels like you and the audience are doing it together, not like you're doing it at them, you know, it's so sad.
- [86:30]
Alex Cooper
And beautiful and listening to it, I was like, Halsey, I wanted to like give you a hug. I was like, this is so fucking sad. But it's so. It's really an incredible song. I mean, every single song is incredible. And you're such an incredible writer, but I'm just so happy for you because you are clearly so talented and everything that you have gone through in your career and your personal life. To see this new work of art that you've put together is truly incredible. And I wouldn't say that if I didn't feel that way, like listening to it in my car. I also chose to listen to it in the car because I was like, I need this in the car.
- [87:05]
Halsey
That's it.
- [87:05]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. And I. I'm so happy I got to meet you because your energy and your spirit and just who you are as a person, like, it does change my. My fandom over you even more. Like, I feel like an even bigger fan after getting to speak with you today. Thank you for like, taking the time today because it was. I think the Daddy Gang is going to freak out over this, and I know your fans will, but thank you for giving me the time.
- [87:27]
Halsey
Oh, my gosh, of course. Also, you have to teach me how to plan a wedding. I don't know what I'm doing.
- [87:32]
Alex Cooper
Trust me.
- [87:33]
Halsey
I have no idea. I'm really overwhelmed.
- [87:36]
Alex Cooper
Trust me, I've got you. Because I was like, I didn't even know what I would want to wear. I was like the antithesis of a bride when I first started. And, like, I figured it out.
- [87:44]
Halsey
Well, I told you I never wanted to be married. So when I'm talking, people are like, when you were a little girl, what did you dream about? Like, nothing. And I was like, I didn't. I have no idea.
- [87:53]
Alex Cooper
Right? Like, being successful.
- [87:54]
Halsey
I'm just obsessed with my fiance. And I just, like, fucking, like, wanna, like, I wanna crawl inside his skin and be, like, a part of him. And, like, I need a wedding where, like, I can either do that and it's not weird or, like, like it. There's something in place that prevents me from trying to do it, you know.
- [88:11]
Alex Cooper
Halsey, I could not relate more to you, and I will give you all of the wedding tips that you need. Thank you for coming on. Call her daddy.
- [88:18]
Halsey
It was an honor.
- [88:19]
Alex Cooper
Thank you.
- [88:19]
Halsey
Thanks for having me.