Halsey (2:24)

I know. I don't know how to explain it to him in a way that doesn't sound like, so, like, psychotically like, you have to respect me and give me this. Like, there's no way to explain it. Like, he's like, why can't I call you Ash if everyone else does. I'm like, that's a great question, but I just don't like it.

Alex Cooper (2:39)

But I also think it's like, the rite of passage. Like, when you become a parent, you're like, give me at least, like, 10 years of calling me, like, mom and mommy and.

Halsey (2:47)

Yeah, you're three, Right? You can call me Ash later. Like, it's like. It's so funny. Yeah, it's. It's crazy.

Alex Cooper (2:53)

Is it weird if anyone in your life would, like, refer to you as Halsey?

Halsey (2:56)

Some people do. Like, I think it's kind of interchangeable at this point. I, like, answer to it the same way as if it was my name. It feels the same in my body. It does. You know, like, it feels like it's like it registers the same emotionally, as if someone says Ash or Ashley.

Alex Cooper (3:11)

Have you ever looked at it like it's an alter ego?

Halsey (3:15)

Recently? Yeah.

Alex Cooper (3:16)

Okay.

Halsey (3:17)

I didn't mean to. When I started, it was just a name because my name is Ashley Frangipani. And, like, you can't. You can't be Frangipant. You know, you have to say in your New Jersey accent, my name is Ashley Frangipani. So, you know, there was no. That wasn't happening. So it was just supposed to be like, an easy, like, moniker. And then, yeah, I would say, like, a couple years ago, I started having thoughts like, that were like, oh, well, that's very Halsey. Or like, well, I dress like this when I'm Ash, and then I dress like this when I'm Halsey. And then I kind of was like, whoa, when did I start differentiating between the two? Like, when did they become two separate things?

Alex Cooper (3:54)

Was that, like, freaky or. No?

Halsey (3:56)

Kinda. Yeah. Cause I was kind of like, how did it happen?

Alex Cooper (3:58)

What is the difference between Halsey and Ashley? Like, give us an example.

Halsey (4:01)

Hmm. Well, you know what's funny is I think Ashley is like. Like, when I'm Ash, like, I'm definitely way more, I think, masculine.

Alex Cooper (4:10)

Okay.

Halsey (4:11)

Than when I'm Halsey. And I'm not really certain, like, where that kind of started to divert, you know what I mean? Like, when I'm home, like, I'm like a. I'm like a boy clothes, short hair, like, not to, like, gender clothes. Like, you know what I'm saying? And I'm definitely kind of. I think that Ash is, like, less provocative. Like, I'm very, like, chill, very patient. You know what I mean? Like, very, like, maternal. And then I feel like Halsey. A lot of people have this idea that I'm, like, really provocative and, like, you know, I'm, like, always, like, yapping. I'm a big yapper. Halsey's a yapper. Ash is not so much a yapper.

Alex Cooper (4:54)

Have you ever become, like, a little resentful of the Persona that you've created?

Halsey (4:59)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I think that the part. Part of the problem, though, is that, like, you know, people just kind of decide who you are based on, like, when they got to know you. You know what I mean? Like, I've been seeing a lot of that happening. Like, every now and then, like, I'll see, like, a comment under, like, a picture of, like, me and my partner, and someone's like, I thought she was dating, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, someone from, like, six years ago, and I'm like, oh, your update. And, like, I don't expect everyone to know everything about me that's going on at any given moment, but, like, they just locked in something from, like, a big press moment or, like, a time when I was, like, really on, or, like, they were reading about me a lot and they were like, and that's who you are forever? And I'm like, whoa, it's been, like, six years. So much has happened.

Alex Cooper (5:40)

That's like, kind of a mind fuck mentally to be like, no, no, no. I've progressed and grown. But you guys see this Persona that, like, was very there in your minds, and it never grew. And I, like, fully grown as a human being. And yet Halsey is just, like, almost, like, stuck in time for people, which I think a lot of celebrities or performers have that, like. And everyone decides when they want to grow with a performer or not. Like, yeah, it's confusing.

Halsey (6:07)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (6:07)

How would you describe your relationship to fame?

Halsey (6:10)

I'm kind of indifferent at this point. I used to be, like. It used to be not that way. It used to be just torturous. You know what I mean? Like, I. I will say, like, it never really felt normal. It still doesn't. Like, I've. I've been doing this for, like, 11 years. You would think at this point that I would just be like, yeah, I'm famous. No, that is not how it is. I, like, still wake up every day and not. And they're like, I wake up every day and I'm like, oh, my God. It's more like, I wake up every day and I'm like, what the. You know what I mean? And I think that I also, like, I've kept, like, a lot of really normal people around me. And you know what? Actually, that's the distinction. That's when the distinction started happening. Was that. Was that when I started to become, like, a celebrity? Like, the distinction between Halsey and Ashley, I think, is very much that, like, Ashley stayed the same. You know, we're like. When I'm out with my friends, like, my best friend Erica, she's my best friend since I was, like, 13, and she's like. She says to me, like, once a month or like, a couple times a month, like, we'll be out somewhere doing something, and someone will be like, oh, can I picture? There's, like, a paparazzi. There's like, whatever. And she'll be like, dude, I, like, just forget you're famous every day.

Alex Cooper (7:21)

That's the best.

Halsey (7:21)

I just forget all the time. And she's, like, lived with me. She's been around for, like, every step of the journey. She's, like, backstage at the VMAs with me, and then, like, the next day, she's like, I very famous. We were at the VMAs yesterday. How did you forget? And she's like, you just are still. So you're exactly the same as you were. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (7:39)

I do think, like, that's so important to have, though, because at the end of the day, like, all these people that are famous, it. You're famous for, like, something that you're really good at. Obviously, some people are just famous because they're famous, but, like, you are so talented and your talent has made you famous, of course. But with that, like, you are just still a human being that, like, likes to sleep and likes to eat and like to chill with friends. And so I think having those, like, friends around you must still make you feel like the person from New Jersey just growing up and, like, had a talent. I think that's helpful to have. When do you feel most like yourself? Like, what would you be doing?

Halsey (8:18)

Well, I'm pretty boring. I didn't used to be. I, like, I got it out of my system. You know what I mean? Like, I had, like, a couple of years where I look back on and, like, cringe into, like, a black hole when I see those photos or, like. But I'm also really grateful for them because I just, like, did it in a contained set of years, and then I'll never have to do it again. So, like, now I'm just boring. Like.

Alex Cooper (8:39)

No, you're not boring, but I know what you're talking about. I think we all have that, where we're like, yeah, what would I doing?

Halsey (8:46)

Like, what.

Alex Cooper (8:46)

What would you say you did? That was cringe.

Halsey (8:48)

Oh, my God. There's, like, so many pictures of me just, like, up, like, leaving a club, like. Like paparazzi. Like, it's like three in the morning. I'm like, what are you doing? But also, I was, like, 22. You know what I mean? So when I see that, I'm a gentle with myself about it. But, like. Or, like, times where I, like, I don't know, there's stuff that's like, maybe cringe, but also maybe part of me, I'm a little bit, like, go off. Like, you know, like, I clapped back at someone, or I, like, you know, like, I went off or something like that. And, like, I see that, and I'm like, gosh, you were so angry and so confused and so, like, overwhelmed, and, like, you had no one to help you. So I have, like, a lot of compassion for that version of me. But then there's also times where I'm like, girl, shut up. You know? I'm like, shut up.

Alex Cooper (9:32)

No, I think that's like, no matter if you're famous or not, like, people can look back at old Facebook photos and be like, what was I up to? What was going on there, Alex? But then at the end of the day, you're like, well, I was fudgeing young. And, like, I was having, I think, a good time.

Halsey (9:47)

I mean, I didn't go to college. You know what I mean? So I didn't have, like, those years. And it's funny, the same, like, I think the same people who will pass judgment for, like, photos of me in, like, my 20s, like, not even in my 20s, like, at 20, you know, because I was 19 when I wrote my first album. And, you know, there's, like, pictures of me from that time, and people are like, oh, gosh. Like, and I feel like there's this almost indication of, like, no class. And I'm like, what if I were at, like, a university? And, like, these pictures were just, like, on Facebook or, like, whatever, and I was just, like, going. Like, you would just consider that a natural part of me, like, finding myself and, like, you know, but because there's this extra set of expectations, I think there's, like, a separate judgment that's passed. And, like, I try to. I try to, like, contextualize it that way and be like, girl, you'd have been doing the same thing if you stayed in Jersey, if you went to Rutgers. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (10:37)

Like, you.

Halsey (10:38)

Even worse, actually.

Alex Cooper (10:39)

I was gonna say, if you went to Rutgers, you would have been like, face up on a keg stand. Like, you would have had pictures of you on the keg stand. Like, it would have been similar, if not worse.

Halsey (10:49)

I know.

Alex Cooper (10:51)

How do you choose what to keep private and what to put into your art and your music?

Halsey (11:00)

I don't know that I really choose.

Alex Cooper (11:03)

Okay.

Halsey (11:03)

I think it kind of. I just, like, write what I'm feeling. There's a song on this album called Hurt Feelings, and it's about my dad. I've written a song about my dad every single album. And every single time, just when we get to the time where we're deciding the track list, I cut the song because I'm like, I can't do it. I'm too scared. I'm too scared. I'm too scared. And this time I didn't, and I put it on the album, and that was, like, a moment for me where I was like, okay, this is something I have kept private. But now I feel ready to, like, get out there, and I feel like I have a responsibility, kind of.

Alex Cooper (11:33)

Do you have a relationship with your father? Like, does he know this is going to be on the album?

Halsey (11:37)

He doesn't know it's going to be on the album. We have a pretty complicated relationship, which is, like, you know, I don't think that's, like, groundbreaking. I feel like a lot of young women have complicated relationships with their fathers. I think for me especially, you know, I started making music when I was 18, and it kind of started to blow up when I was 19, and it just changed everything about our family's dynamic because I became the breadwinner, and I became kind of like, you know, in a way, like, I became, like, the matriarch patriarch of my family. And I think that, you know, for a man who, like, spent his whole life, like, working really hard to support his family, and then, you know, I kind of come in and I'm, like, still a kid to him, and I take that role. I imagine that's probably just, like, conflicting, you know, in, like, an existential level. And it definitely showed up in our relationship, and so it's, like, affected it since.

Alex Cooper (12:35)

Yeah, I can imagine that was very confusing for both of you. Like, also you coming in being like, I don't know what the fuck to do either. Like, and when you do look back, what is your earliest childhood memory that comes to mind?

Halsey (12:50)

It's so hard. I'm like, one of those people that doesn't remember, like, a lot of their childhood. I had, like, a really. I Had, like, a really hectic childhood. My parents, really young when they had me, they dropped out of college. They met at Fairleigh Dickinson in Jersey, and then they were, like, 19 or 20 when they got pregnant. They'd only known each other for, like, a couple months. And, you know, they both dropped out and started their family. With me. We moved all the time. Every year we moved. Like, I wasn't out of school until, like, high school. I wasn't out of school longer for than, like, two years. And I was always starting over in a new place. We were just trying to go where there was, like, cheaper apartments, better jobs, and parents working, like, multiple jobs. And, like, my experience felt so irrelevant to, like, what they were going through. You know what I mean? It was like my. I think that when I look back on my childhood, my experience, My experience was very much to just, like, not get in the way because of how hard it was. And, like, I failed at that miserably. I was getting in the way all of the time. You know what I mean? And then I feel like that has probably attributed to, like, why I am in, like, the line of work that I'm in, because it's like, you know, we're all looking to satisfy some sort of, like. I don't want to say need for attention, because I feel like that's really, like, derogatory, but, like, maybe, like, we're looking for our voice and our experience to matter, you know?

Alex Cooper (14:13)

But don't you feel like even hearing you say that when you're like, I was always in the way? I'm like, yeah, but I feel like that's what kids are supposed to do.

Halsey (14:19)

Totally.

Alex Cooper (14:19)

And, like, I imagine you, though, like, under those circumstances of your parents constantly having to move, you were, like, hyper aware of just, like, stay over here. Like, don't do anything. Don't, like, get in the way. Like, I'm not that important right now. Do you remember, like, what you felt about when you would, like, view your parents, like, romantic relationship?

Halsey (14:41)

My parents were, like, really, like, I guess kind of volatile. Like, they were either, like, super in love and, like, cuddled on the couch, like, laid the fuck up, like, you know, going on dates, like, obsessed with each other. Like kids or they were, like, at each other's throats. There was, like, no, no in between. And, you know, like, I've actually never really talked about this before, but my household was, like, pretty. My household was pretty volatile. You know what I mean? Like, there was a lot of, like. There was a lot of, like, aggression. You know what I mean, and aggression just, like, thrown in every direction. Like, you know, And I think that it's so funny because I. It's so obvious that you witness that you form that as your perception of. Not necessarily of what love is, but what's acceptable in love, you know? And then that you apply that. When I look on past relationships of mine, I'm like, okay. I'm like, literally, this is two plus two equals four. Like, it's so simple. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then.

Alex Cooper (15:56)

Oh, that was. That is why I went for this. But it seems so simple, but it's, like, not also.

Halsey (16:01)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (16:02)

Because you don't catch yourself immediately doing it. And then when it's, like, a pattern, then you're like, whoa.

Halsey (16:07)

I know. And then it's funny because you think you do the work. And then, like, a different trauma sneaks up on you where it's like, okay, so you're like, all right, I'm gonna tolerate, like, violence or aggression or, like, whatever it is, because I experienced it, but now I'm gonna unlearn that so it never happens again. And then you get into another relationship, and you're like, this one's better because it's not like, the last one. And then, like, a different thing sneaks in, you know what I mean? Where it's like, the person's, like, putting you down, or they're like, I don't know, like, gaslighting you or, like, whatever, and you're like, is this a whole other thing? I'm. This is a whole other thing. Is it all just my childhood again?

Alex Cooper (16:41)

No, it's like, no, literally, it's like, whack a mole. Because you're like, oh, maybe it's not, like, physical this time, but it's, like, emotional this time. But it's all under the same umbrella.

Halsey (16:50)

Totally.

Alex Cooper (16:50)

First of all, thank you for sharing that, because I feel like you're someone that, like, you're. When you write in your songs, like, it's so powerful. And I think a lot of people connect to you on how real you are in your lyrics, especially this new album coming out. When I was listening to it, I was like, I need. I feel like I need to pull over. Like, this is. This is, like. It's very heavy and emotional.

Alex Cooper (17:09)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (17:09)

And I feel for you, but I think a lot of people can sadly relate to what you're going through. When you were in those moments with your parents and it was volatile, like, were you someone that would just, like, be alone and not tell anyone? How would you, like yeah. Basically get through it.

Halsey (17:29)

I think I kind of coped in that way. We're just like, waited for it to be over. You know what I mean? Also, like, it changes hands when you're in a household like that. Like, it usually starts and it's like you can kind of feel it happening to your mom. And I'm the only daughter and the oldest. Okay. Wow. So there was definitely a point where like, the target kind of changed to me. And you feel, I think, really alone in that, in that sort of situation. I definitely just mostly coped by writing. I've always been a writer, like my whole life. And, you know, I like, used to keep journals and like, keep diaries and stuff like that. And I read a lot and I def. I was someone who kind of like, I was into escapism for sure.

Halsey (18:12)

Yeah.

Halsey (18:12)

You know, I mean, like novels and like, just putting myself into like, other worlds that just felt like different than mine.

Halsey (18:18)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (18:19)

Would you ever talk to your mom, like, about it since she had.

Halsey (18:23)

I have.

Alex Cooper (18:23)

Okay.

Halsey (18:24)

Yeah. No, I have. My mom and I are super close.

Alex Cooper (18:26)

Okay.

Halsey (18:27)

Yeah. She's like, my mom is like my. My best friend. And you know, we have talked about it and like, I think there's a couple stages of it, Right. Because then there's the first part where you have to be like, hey, why didn't you stand up for me? And then there's the second part where you have to be like, also, I forgive you. You were going through a lot. And then there's like the third part of it, which is like, there's still stuff you do today that pisses me the off. But I understand why now because, you know, you've been conditioned, you know what I mean? In a certain way. And like, you have to have just like so much grace and understanding. And like, at a certain point you have to just decide. You have to decide what's forgivable. Right. And some things are and some things aren't. Like, I don't stand by the thing with people where it's like, oh, like they're your parents. Like, whatever it is, it's not that serious. Like, you know, you have to. You have to just like, make sure you keep the relationship. Like, I don't agree with that at all. But then at the same time, I also don't agree with the idea of, like, we should punish our parents forever for what they did to us. It's like, some things you forgive, some you don't. And that's up to you to decide.

Alex Cooper (19:31)

That's a good point. And it takes so much time because, like, the resentment I feel, like, goes in and out. Like, depending at where you're at in life, like, you can be like, okay, we're feeling good now. And then, like, something, like, triggers you and reminds you of something they did when you were younger, and you're like, oh, my God. Actually, we're not done with this conversation.

Halsey (19:50)

Totally.

Alex Cooper (19:50)

There's more. I just remembered, and it's like an endless cycle. But I agree, like, yeah, it doesn't. It can't just be black and white where you forgive or it's, like, all perfect. Like, there's gonna be conversations that keep having to happen.

Halsey (20:01)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (20:01)

I think also something interesting that you were talking about was, like, going to all these different schools. Like, when we are young, a huge part also of, like, what forms our personality and our tendencies is, like, our relationship with our friends and our peers. You going to new schools constantly, like, how did you approach a new school?

Halsey (20:20)

I was definitely like, this is an opportunity. You know, I was always like, if there's something I want to try out or someone I want to be, like, I can do it here, because no one knows me.

Alex Cooper (20:28)

Oh, interesting.

Halsey (20:28)

You know, like, when I was growing up, I was like, Ashley with a Y. I was like, Ashley with two E's. Oh. There's, like, one school I was at for, like, a really short period of time where I was like, I'm Ashley, but everyone calls me Sky. It's, like, not true. I made that up. I was just, like, nine. And then, like, it was, like, years later, I was, like, in a bar in New York, and someone came up to me, and they were like, sky. And I was like, what? And they're like, sky. Like, we went to school together, and I was like, I'm. I don't even remember being that person. Which is ironic now, because if you know anything about me, like, as an artist, like, you're, like, that tracks. Like, you're constant. You constantly look and see, seem and act, like, different, you know?

Alex Cooper (21:04)

But that's kind of, like, fun and tough. As a kid, you're constantly not having to have this, like, stable foundation of. Around you. Of, like, I went to the same school from, like, kindergarten to eighth grade. So, like, we all knew each other's parents, and we all knew each other's, which has its pros and cons, but, like, constantly moving. I feel like you can, yes, reinvent yourself, but you also, I feel like, aren't really seen then.

Halsey (21:30)

No, definitely not. Yeah. You're just. There's, like, fragments of you out in the world. Just, like, these little whispers of a person who's, like, barely even formed. Like, my manager, Anthony, has a tattoo on his arm, and it's a tattoo of his childhood home. And he was like, yeah, this is, like, a drawing of my childhood home. And I was like, I don't. If you asked me what my childhood home was, I can't think of one because, like, I had so many. Like, I. I can't. I can't picture, like, a childhood home. I lived in, like, eight houses, like, apartments. Like, you know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (21:57)

You couldn't even, like, draw something.

Halsey (22:00)

I mean, I would have to. If I had to pick one that was, like, my childhood home. Like, maybe the house I lived in when I was in high school. But that's not really childhood.

Alex Cooper (22:08)

No, no.

Halsey (22:09)

You know what I mean? It was like, I lived in so many different apartments. I lived in, like, Florham Park. I lived in Linden. I lived in Clark. I lived in, like, Sussex. I lived in. I just lived in so many different places and all these, like, little apartments, and they're all just kind of this, like, this, like, amorphous goo of, like, a bedroom. And I'm, like, in there with my little brother. And then there's, like, the kitchen. And then, like, you know, like, the apartment complexes, they all, like, blend into, like, one. Like, when I picture it kind of.

Alex Cooper (22:38)

I'm interested to get your take on this. Like, what do you think is the difference between, like, hyper independence versus loneliness?

Halsey (22:49)

I think it's whether it's forced or it's a choice. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's kind of the difference. I think, like, if you're choosing to be hyper independent because it's like, it's better for you and, like, you function, you know, better in that way versus if you're forced into hyper independence because you're not trusting or you have, like, an attachment issue or, like, you know, your. You put a lot of cell, like, a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed or to accomplish. That's kind of that, like, loneliness, like, that solitude. Like.

Alex Cooper (23:24)

Would you say you were lonely as a kid?

Halsey (23:26)

Oh, my God. Yeah. I was so lonely. I was so. I'm still lonely. I'm like, you know, loneliness is like, when it affects you on. You know, I feel like there's, like, clinical loneliness. You know, it's like, there's, like. There's being sad because something happened, and then there's, like, obviously, like, depression, which is like, you know, it's clinical. I feel like, there's a version of that with loneliness, you know, where it's like, you're lonely because people aren't around and you have no one to hang out with. You're lonely because you're going through something singular, and there's, like, deep, like, carnal loneliness. And I think that I've definitely felt that way for, like, a lot of my life. And it's hard to fix, you know, it's like, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to. To get around that, especially if you become comfortable in it, you know? Well.

Alex Cooper (24:25)

And I feel like what you're sharing, too, about your life, which I appreciate you sharing all this. Just to pause for a second.

Halsey (24:31)

I feel like I'm being so dark. No, you're not a fun podcast. I was lonely as a kid.

Alex Cooper (24:36)

Let me just say, like, this is the shit that I think, like, when we now, like, listen to your music, it even adds, like, more context. And, like, in my opinion, like, I feel. Not in a creepy way, but, like, I feel closer to you now because I'm like, oh, like, yeah. So many people are like, preach. Yes. Same, same, same. Like, you talking about your childhood, I think that when people are listening to your music, it's. It is kind of helpful to know, like, no wonder you are lonely because, like, you came from this household environment that you had to become lonely because you constantly were just, like, surviving alone. And, like, I think that happens a lot of times when there are volatile or abusive situations at home. Like, if there's multiple people getting abused, you can't even connect in the moment over because you're just surviving. And then you talking with your mom later on down the line, like, of course you wish you guys could have bonded over or talked about it when you were that young, but you couldn't because you didn't have the tools, either of you, to be like, yeah, this is happening sometimes. A lot of times it takes getting out to be able to talk about shit.

Halsey (25:42)

And it's generational. You know what I mean? Like, I always say, it's like our. Like, a lot of. For a lot of us, our parents were. In the generation of survival, we're the first with the luxury of existential thought. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't have the luxury to, like, be, like, putting. Putting thought into, you know, their existence or, like, the roles and dynamics at play or, like, you know, the reasons why they're doing something. Like, it was mostly just, like, surviving.

Halsey (26:08)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (26:08)

You know, I'm really interested to Talk about this high school glow up that you had because I could not relate more to something I know that you've mentioned in the past. You were kind of like insecure and unnoticed and then going into sophomore year of high school you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life? I.

Halsey (26:41)

Call her Daddy is brought to.

Alex Cooper (26:42)

You by Airbnb I have been so into taking little weekend trips this year and when I start to get stressed at work and know I need a vacay, I open up Airbnb. Okay? Matt and I are about to go away for the weekend and I found the cutest, coziest home on Airbnb for us. I need to make sure I can travel with my dogs. Henry and Bruce are not getting left behind. Okay? And Airbn makes it so easy to find pet friendly properties on a romantic getaway. Having our own home ensures that Matt and I will have the privacy that we truly need to unwind. I feel like I'm non stop talking all day so when I do get a break, I don't want to see or speak to anyone but my husband. Okay? I also love that Airbnb shows guest reviews. I am someone who is on the page scrolling through every single review a place has and seeing that so many people have stayed at home and loved the experience makes me feel secure when I'm booking a place. No matter where I want to drive off to on a random weekend, I'm always able to find an incredible place to stay. And if you just want to go somewhere but you don't really know where to go yet, let Airbnb make the decision for you. They have a guest favorites tab that might inspire you and perhaps even create a new tradition as you book your 2025 travel. My number one tip is to check Airbnb to find the perfect place to stay because your accommodation can really make or break the trip.

Halsey (28:14)

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Alex Cooper (29:42)

Going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up. Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

Halsey (29:49)

I was, like, really underdeveloped.

Alex Cooper (29:51)

Okay.

Halsey (29:51)

You know what I mean? I was, like, really skinny. I, like, didn't hit puberty until, like, a lot later. And I was, like, super nerdy. The glasses and like, you know, I was like, yeah, I was just like a geek. And then, you know, I hit puberty and, like, I came back and all of a sudden I had, like, huge tits. And, like, you know, I got contacts and like, I. I also kind of, like, that was where I sort of entered my, like, I kind of entered my villain era, like, when I was, like, 15, where I was, like, tired of being nerdy and geeky. And I was like, you guys, like, I actually have really cool interests and I hang out with adults, like, which is not good. That's like a whole other separate bad thing. But we'll get there. Yeah, but I felt very, like, you know, I felt very, like, emboldened by that. And just like, at school, like, I don't know, my coping mechanism of, like, not getting along with the kids I went to school with or not, like, really fitting in and having a friend group was by telling myself it didn't matter because I had, like, cooler, more interesting friends and people I knew, most of whom were just, like, online, like, didn't really hang out with them in real life. And I was like, you know, we're talking about, like, you know, intellectual things and, like, whatever else. But, yeah, I definitely. I feel like everything really changed really fast for me. And I went from someone who was like, look who looked like a nerdy 10 year old when I was 15 to, like, someone who was getting, like, tons of unwanted, like, sexual attention. And I was like, what the.

Alex Cooper (31:23)

How did. Having, like. Because I experienced A similar thing of, like, overnight going through.

Halsey (31:31)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (31:32)

And being like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, the same guy that's, like, bullying the out of me is now, like, wanting to, like, take me on a date.

Halsey (31:40)

Totally.

Alex Cooper (31:41)

Hold on. Pause, you piece of. Like, nothing changed except my looks. And yet.

Halsey (31:46)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (31:46)

Now you're into me. Like, how did that impact the way that you, like, felt about yourself?

Halsey (31:52)

I think it did in, like, a lot of different ways. The first was I had to, like, differentiate, you know, between what attention was, like, kindness and what wasn't. Because my first instinct is I was like, oh, people are being really nice to me now. And I just missed the agenda completely. And, like, that was really hard to navigate because I didn't have a lot of experience with that. And I. It took me a long time to learn, like, if someone is, like, giving you that kind of attention, you are not obligated to return it. I was really afraid of, like, making people mad or making people not like me. And, like, you know, on. On, like, the simplest level, it's like, a guy will be like an asshole to you if you are kind of. If you reject him.

Alex Cooper (32:35)

Yes.

Halsey (32:36)

And then on the worst version of it, there's violence. You know what I mean? So it was kind of like, it's. I had to learn how to navigate. Like, I am not obligated to concede or to give in to the sexual pursuit of me just because it's happening.

Alex Cooper (32:51)

But it's hard because when you go from not experiencing any of it that, like, a lot of your peers are experiencing, and then all of a sudden, all this validation comes. Like, I remember when that happened to me, I felt at first so excited, like, kind of like you're talking about. There's that, like, excitement of validation. But underneath it, I think when I was alone, I had some, like, anger.

Halsey (33:14)

Because I was like, totally.

Alex Cooper (33:16)

What? Like, is it. It's so surface level. Like, I've been the same person the whole time, but you guys, like, didn't give me any fudgeing attention until I had tits and an ass.

Halsey (33:25)

And, like, that's when you have to start doing the. Would you have been nice to me before? And if the answer is no, then bye.

Halsey (33:30)

Bye.

Alex Cooper (33:31)

It's really confusing. Yeah. You said once that you thought your sexiness was a superpower, kind of like we're talking about, and made it so no one could hurt you and you would enter these rooms, like, for sure, feeling that confidence.

Halsey (33:44)

Yeah. I definitely wielded sexual power as, like, a. You know, I don't know. Like, as a. As a tool of acquisition, you know, Like, I definitely used it in certain circumstances because it was kind of all that I had.

Alex Cooper (33:58)

Can you give me an example?

Halsey (33:59)

Well, like, you know, if you're in a room full of people, especially men, you know, and in this business, as I was starting my business and I was learning how to navigate the industry, it's not just like, I write songs and, like, I have to build a business. You know, you're in a room full of people who are more experienced than you. They're older than you. They're richer than you. They're very often men, white men, you know, and at the time, I was. I started out by trying to be like, look how smart I am, and look how much I know. And it was kind of like, okay. And I was like, well, that's not working. Okay. And then at a certain time, I think in the beginning, I kind of figured out, like, I can make all of these, like, really smart men dumb instantly if I'm just hot, you know? Like, it's so crazy how fast they become stupid. Like, there's so. They have so much power over you in the moment where you're like, all the experience, the money, the power, the whatever. And then you have this one little magic trick in your pocket where you can just be like, really? And all of a sudden, that guy is like. And you're like, oh, God, that was so easy. It's like, why wouldn't you use it if you have it then?

Alex Cooper (35:04)

And I think so many people can relate to this. Like, I do think, yes. Like, women can relate to using that. That part of us that is so sexualized.

Halsey (35:16)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (35:17)

And leaning into it, you can feel this, like, great, great energy from it. And it's like.

Halsey (35:24)

Until it becomes. Feels gross, though. Until it gets gross.

Alex Cooper (35:27)

And it feels gross pretty fast. I feel like. And I think, like, a lot of conversation I always see online, like, I know Emily Ratajkowski has, like, talked a lot about it of, like, there's this weird thing where, you know, you can use it to an advantage, but then you also have to, like, have. Have some ability to, like, navigate for yourself what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.

Halsey (35:51)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (35:51)

Like, when do you think if you have, like, a memory that you were like, oh, I'm. I'm taking it too far. This actually is like, I'm. I'm not feeling chill about this.

Halsey (35:59)

I mean, there's been, like, a couple times. There's definitely, like, some times where, like, I was, you know, I was like out with like some collaborators and it was like late and like someone was just like. We were kind of like playfully flirting in a way that was like, seemed really harmless.

Alex Cooper (36:20)

Yeah.

Halsey (36:21)

And then they got like really drunk and they just started kind of like touching me like in public. And I was like, whoa. But at the time, you know, it's like I was younger than. But it was like, you don't want to cause a scene. You don't want to like, you know, there's other people there. You don't want them to see you freak out and then they don't want to work with you because they think you're a drama queen and like whatever else. And you know, and these are all, like I said, younger minded belief systems of mine that have obviously since changed now that I'm older. But like, it was those kind of things where I was like, this is not worth it. You know, it's because it's becoming unsafe. And I, I don't want, you know, I don't want this to seem like I'm signing a. I'm signing some sort of invisible contract where I'm promising something to someone.

Halsey (37:08)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (37:08)

You know, and I think the concept of like being a young person in a situation where there's a power dynamic, like you're just, it's such this like hard thing to explain until you're in those situations where you referenced it earlier of like, I didn't want to make this person upset and I didn't want it to escalate where it could literally get to the point where it goes like, violent. So you kind of just like appease the situation. And I think that is where it can get really scary and it. And you keep just like, like we just can appease people and like make it be like, oh, no, no, everything's fine, everything's fine. And it's like. But then you go home and you feel like gross and shitty with you.

Halsey (37:45)

I had like a really strange situation a couple years ago. I mean, I guess it was quite a, it was quite a long time ago, but I was out and I was with this executive, like this really powerful executive who works in music in some capacity. And I'd been going out and like hanging out with him and like some other people at the company and like, you know, we were working together and like everything was like really fine. Like it was very, just like celebratory and like there was a lot of like industry talk. I didn't feel weird about it at all. And I like had like my Two managers with me who were kind of like older guys. And, like, I never felt, like, unsafe or anything. We were out one night, and, like, he was like, oh, like, I want to send a photo to, like, my niece of us together or something like that. And I was like, okay. And I, like, took out my phone. I took, like, a selfie, the two of us, and I handed him my phone, and I was like, text it to yourself. I have to pee. And then I went to the bathroom, and when I came back, he, like, handed me my phone like this, and I saw he was, like, going through my nudes on my phone.

Alex Cooper (38:48)

What is wrong with people?

Halsey (38:50)

And I, like, sat down, and I was, like. Actually didn't even know what to do. I was just, like, frozen. I was like, did I just imagine that? Was that an accident? Like, did the phone, like, scroll? Like, what. What the heck just happened? And then I was like, did he text them to himself and then delete the messages? Like, I don't even know where these are now. Like, I was just, like. I was, like, frozen. And I was like, that's so crazy that, like, I'm in this situation where, like, I have so much power. I have a bodyguard. Like, I have a. I have a bodyguard, and I have, you know, all the leverage in the world. And I'm in this, like, exclusive space in this, like, vip. Like, you know, I've reached the ranks of, like, oh, I am protected, or, like, whatever else it may be. And then this invasive thing just happens, like, on a whim. And I was like, oh, my God. I was. I. It made me feel. I felt like it regressed me so much. Like, it made me feel. I went from being like, yeah, I'm like, fucking hot shit, and I'm one of the big players. And then I sat down, and when that happened, in that moment, I was like, you're nothing. You're nothing. You'll always be nothing. You're still just, like, that fucking girl who's, like, getting, you know, taken advantage of or, like, men are talking about you behind your back or you're some sort of, like, collateral. I was like, you're nothing. It was so demoralizing. It's so and so many worse things have happened to me than that. But that one stuck out for some reason because it was so nonchalant.

Alex Cooper (40:31)

Right? No, that. Like, that's what I think. It's so. I appreciate you sharing the details, even of, like, you're where you at. You're in your career. You have a bodyguard. And, yeah, I think And. And you technically, like, we revert to that, like, little child of, like, men ruling the world and us just having to appease them. Like, we were just talking about. And you in that moment, like, no, of course. And people be like, why didn't you just say something? It's like, you don't get it until you're in those moments where it's like there is kind of nothing to say. But even if you said something, then you're the crazy that it's like, oh, and then someone calls you a. Because then what do you mean? What are you talking about? You're nudes. You take new. Like, they can turn it so fudgeing fast on you.

Halsey (41:13)

Also, it's like, are you. Are you, like, a bad bitch businesswoman? That's the other thing is, it's like, at what point, you know, where is the line between, like, I am a powerful woman, so I have to stand up to myself, and the line between that and I'm a powerful woman, so I have to not let certain things bother me so that I can outplay these men in the long game. There's so much to think about in that moment. You know what I mean? It's like, am I gonna let this bother me? This, like, pathetic, squirmy little worm action of this man when, like, I could just let it go and then I'll get the last laugh because I'm building my business and I'm looking out for my life and whatever. Or like. Like, do I have a responsibility as a woman in a position of power to stand up for myself in that moment? I don't know which is what is expected of me.

Alex Cooper (41:57)

I don't think anyone in your position or anyone really in those moments knows what to do. Even, like, the highest of powered people, like. And I think that's why this is a really interesting conversation, because it's like, you. You're so right. Had you said something and made a scene, then you're just like, oh, she's like the crazy. Like, no one work with her anymore. She, like, makes stuff up and she, like, use her, like, sexual being parts of herself as, like, a way to, like, get people in trouble. We don't touch her anymore.

Halsey (42:27)

Like, she's like a black widow. She'll flirt with you and then she'll, like, screw you later. I'm like, whoa, okay.

Alex Cooper (42:32)

And men don't have that experience where they're never being, like, overly sexualized in those moments. So, like, can't relate. Gotta go. Ew. She's crazy.

Halsey (42:39)

Yeah. Yeah, get off of me. Whatever. Totally.

Alex Cooper (42:42)

It's not only is it the best interview because you're fabulous, it's also, like, I have been wanting to have these type of conversations with someone that gets it and can talk about it, but it also is not, like, above it, where you're like. You are in it and you've experienced it. And I think so many young people are gonna be like, yeah, thank you for just talking about something that we don't have the answer to any of this.

Halsey (43:02)

No. Also, that's the thing. People look to us and they're like, so what do you do in those situations? Because they're like, oh, thank you for sharing. So what's the solution? And you're like, I don't know. I'm still figuring that out.

Alex Cooper (43:12)

I don't know.

Halsey (43:13)

You know what I mean? Like, I'm still figuring out so many things. Like. Like, I. Even now, like, you know, I. Like, where are the lines? You know, like, sometimes it's just like, if someone's being, like, a little overly friendly. Yeah. It's hard sometimes to be like, okay, is it, like, because they're excited to talk to me? Or is it because they're like, they don't understand social cues? Or, like, you know, what is it? Or like, is this worth being? Like, yo, the chill.

Alex Cooper (43:43)

Yeah. You know, And I think I had a situation that happened to me this past year, and I feel, like, odd because my show, you would expect me to immediately, like, run and sit in front of the camera and talk about it for all of the young people listening to me, I'm still trying to figure out, like, how to talk about that situation, because it is a work situation. And I'm like, I may see this person again. And it's a situation where it's like, wow, like. Like, I don't think anyone would expect me to not say something. And I didn't say something in that moment. And I was so uncomfortable. And it's like, I think the point is two people in seemingly positions of power are sitting here acknowledging today, two young people that experience this. Like, there is no answer. But I do think through a show like this and through your music, like, by us just talking about it, writing about it, singing about it, it just starts to, like, like, normalize more of the conversation so people don't feel so ashamed to talk to even a friend. You don't have to report something immediately. Like, it doesn't have to go to the highest level. Just, like, acknowledging it, I feel like, is the first step to Making some progress.

Halsey (44:50)

Absolutely. It's an ongoing conversation. Also, people don't like it when rules change. That's like the other thing is, like, people also don't like it when you have like, nuanced rules. You know, like, for example, like, I'm topless on my album cover for my fourth record and it's like my nipple was in Target. Like, it's everywhere. But like, people sometimes will just like walk into my dressing room and I'd be like, yo, the door. And it's like the expectation is like, what? You showed everyone your tits? And I'm like, okay, well, I'm revoking that right in this moment. Like, I'm allowed to decide. I don't want you to see me naked right now just because you've seen me naked before. Like, I'm allowed to change my mind. Or like someone's like, oh, like, you know, I saw you in this one interview with like this person and you were like, so touchy feely and like so comfortable. It's like, why are you being so standoffish to me? And I'm like, I have a. Like, like, you don't know my relationship with that person separate of that interview. Or like, you don't know this. Or like, you know, I'm. I reserve the right to change what I'm comfortable with. But people don't like that because then they go, oh, she's so wishy washy. They're always changing their mind. Like, pick one. What is it? And it's like, I'm allowed to change my mind.

Alex Cooper (45:56)

Not only are you allowed to change your mind, like, there are different boundaries per situations you're in in life of like, you may have been having a really rough morning. And so like, yeah, I'm not in the mood for this. And like, like, no matter what the you're in the mood for, that's okay. And people that make you feel uncomfortable or like you're being unreasonable, that is a red flag. Like if something's, if someone is constantly coming at you and making you feel like you're over dramatic or you're being high maintenance and you're pause.

Halsey (46:25)

Or like you took away the blanket consent that I thought you gave to all of us. And like, I wanted that too. And like the reason they're reacting that way is because what they believe you've given them is, you know, with this, like, hypothetical blanket consent is like, they see an opportunity, that they want to leverage that for their own personal gain or their own whatever. And when you take it away they're offended. It's like, you've taken something from me, and it's access to you.

Alex Cooper (46:50)

They feel, like, ownership over you in a way. Like that example of your nipple being in Target. You made a decision the day of your photo shoot to do something creative and artistic that you were comfortable with that day. That does not mean that everyone in the world, when you're walking down the street, can be like, I'm just gonna pull out my.

Halsey (47:09)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (47:10)

Like, nipple free for everyone to see. Like.

Halsey (47:12)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (47:12)

It's wild that they, like, people, feel entitled. The entitlement to our bodies and moments. If you. It's crazy.

Halsey (47:19)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (47:19)

I want to talk about romantic relationships.

Halsey (47:21)

Okay.

Alex Cooper (47:22)

Because we kind of started about your childhood, and I feel like, again, what we've been kind of talking about is, like, they're all connected. Did you tend to fall in love easily when you were younger?

Halsey (47:32)

Not when I was younger, actually. When I was younger, like, when I was a young adult, definitely. When I was a teenager, not so much. I wasn't, like, super trusting. You know what I mean? When I was. I think, honestly, once I became famous, I think I fell in love faster because I was so desperate for, like, stability and, like, partnership, and, like, I just wanted to be seen, and I wanted, like, a constant. And so. So, you know, I think that I, a lot of the time, would sort of project that on to people. Like, you've ignored a lot of red flags, like, that kind of thing, and, like, not even, like, some of them super, like, insidious red flags, but some of them just, like, more harmless ones of, like, we're just not really compatible in that way. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (48:22)

You have talked about a relationship you had when you were 17. The guy was 24.

Halsey (48:27)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (48:28)

And he was a pretty big drug addict and was into drugs.

Halsey (48:32)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (48:32)

What drew you to that person initially?

Halsey (48:36)

I'm a fixer. I am a fixer. I'm like, I can fix you. I can fix you. Like, you know, I. It's funny. I felt like becoming a mom was so natural to me. I struggle with it in the same way that every mom does, but at the end of the day, I think I had so much blanket patience because of how much. Much time I spent trying to, like, fix and mother people up until that point where, like, my. My, like, patience for someone not growing the way you want them to or as fast as you want them to or, like, whatever was, like, already so established.

Alex Cooper (49:15)

But you're like, I've been a mother way before my child.

Halsey (49:18)

Yeah. Seriously.

Alex Cooper (49:20)

I'VE been mothering.

Halsey (49:21)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (49:22)

For a long time.

Halsey (49:23)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (49:23)

No, that makes sense. And I think. Think it's, again, like, interesting to hear you talk about a dynamic that can be like, someone struggling so much with an addiction. Like, I had a relationship with someone that struggled a lot with addiction, and I was very young, and he was older than me. And I remember the power and balance was, like, so ever present, and I would feel so insecure, and I would want to, like, I think when you're the person that's not in the position of power, you find yourself, like, doing things to try to, like, even the playing field. And really, it's like kind of you appeasing them and doing what they want you to do. So you feel closer to them.

Halsey (50:02)

Absolutely.

Alex Cooper (50:03)

Did you experience that with this relationship?

Halsey (50:05)

Yeah. I mean, I dated a lot of addicts. Like, that was a kind of a reoccurring theme for me until I was just like, okay, no. You know, and like, I think that, you know, part of. The. Part of the problem, I think, when you're romantically involved with someone who is in active addiction is that there's no logic, right? So you try to reason with them, and you try to go like, okay, well, can't you see that if you do this, then it hurts me, and then I feel this way? Or, like, you did that. I watched you do it. And it's like they live in a completely different reality that they've constructed to, you know, as a survival mechanism to not think about the fact that they're an active addiction. You know what I mean? So it's like you're arguing with someone or you're reasoning with someone based on reality, and, like, that's not their reality. So there. There's no. You can't. You can't, like, reason with someone who's not living in a world of reason. And then it turns into, like, this cognitive dissonance, like, thought spiral where you start to feel like you're crazy.

Alex Cooper (51:11)

You start to go insane because there's no growth. It feels like growth when there's a loop. Right. They're not on drugs. So then you're getting closer, and you feel like, oh, we're so back. And then it happens again. And then you're like, wait, no, know. But then the progress, that feels like progress. It's just. You're just getting a little bit back to, like, normal. It's like, it's a really, really difficult spiral that I, like, empathize with. Anyone going through it right now that's listening of like, you're not crazy. And I do agree that a lot of people in those positions want to fix things. You can't fix someone that's going through that. And I think a lot of times we feel like we can. Yeah, you can want. And I. I know it's easier said than done, but, like, once you get out of those moments, you obviously have clarity. But when you're in it, like, I just have empathy for, like, friends going through it or people listening. Like, it's hard. And again, there is no solution that we're providing today. I think it's just, like, talking about the real that you go through.

Halsey (52:05)

I needed someone to tell me at that time, like, you're not a bad person if you leave someone who's, like, hurting you. You know what I mean? Because, like, I was always kind of like, like, making excuses for those things and being like, oh, but what kind of person am I if I leave someone who's, like, in this great of need? And I really needed someone to be like, baby, that is not your responsibility. You know what I mean? Especially because I was just so young. And also I had to unlearn this thing that I was going through at that time where I was like, I've spent so long in just, like, misery wanting to fix this person. What if they get better one day and then someone else gets to have the better version of them that I worked so hard to build? And you're. And it's like, that is what kept me in. It was being like, well, no, one day, like, they're gonna get better, and then someone else is gonna get to have the version of them that I always dreamed what existed. And all I got was just, like, the suffering. And then what am I? I'm just like, the lesson. I'm the martyr. I'm the catalyst. I exist in their life just so that they could go be better for someone else. Like. And I was, like, determined to not have that because it also. It felt like losing. I had also deconstruct that, too. That thing of, like, winning and losing. I was like, no, baby, this is your life. This isn't about winning or losing. You know? I don't know. Sorry. It was intense.

Alex Cooper (53:25)

I'm more just, like, speechless because I don't think I've ever heard someone, like, articulate it so perfectly that I can imagine everyone listening right now is like, maybe, like, pulling over to the side of the road just, like, have a. Have a pause because. Because it's so real. Of, like, most of those relationships, you go to the very possible end. To the point that like you even are at risk of your own life when you go that far down with someone. So to leave feels like. But what was this all for?

Halsey (53:53)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (53:54)

And it's like it's just gonna keep going.

Halsey (53:56)

Yeah. It feels like giving up, but it's not. It's like making. You're making like a. It's like it is a hard choice. I think that. But I started learning like in a way you really do become someone when you're spending that amount of time with them and you're like connecting with them on an energetic level that much where now, like if I look at my partner and I wouldn't want to be them, if I wouldn't want to be just like them, then like I probably shouldn't be with them. Like you should kind of really only be spending that amount of time and putting that much love and connection and vulnerability into a person if like, like, you know, if you would be okay becoming them as a result.

Alex Cooper (54:37)

Yeah.

Halsey (54:37)

You know you're preaching right now.

Alex Cooper (54:41)

I'm like, keep going. You're giving us a TED talk.

Alex Cooper (54:55)

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Alex Cooper (55:26)

Love this kind of clothing. Okay?

Alex Cooper (55:29)

I want to look comfortable, but I also want to be able to wear.

Halsey (55:33)

It to the airport and to a meeting.

Alex Cooper (55:34)

Okay?

Alex Cooper (55:35)

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Alex Cooper (56:52)

Okay?

Alex Cooper (56:53)

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Alex Cooper (57:20)

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Halsey (57:21)

OG Black Cherry girl.

Alex Cooper (57:23)

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Alex Cooper (57:54)

In one of your poems, you wrote, I won't love a man unless he is angry because of my father.

Halsey (58:00)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (58:01)

How did normalizing anger in these relationships that you were having make you more willing to put up with the things that they were doing?

Halsey (58:12)

I think that I. Well, first of all, I had to change the way that I talk to myself. You know what I mean? Like, I had a therapist once who was like. Was like. I was. I was talking to them about a partner and I was like, they just like constantly tell me or make me feel like I'm not special or like, you know, I'm Like, I'm embarrassing or like I'm weak or I'm like, I don't know, just like all these things. And the person was like, okay, well, can I ask you a question? Like, do you think you're special? And I was like, no. I was like, I'm. No, I don't. Like what? Like, I'm better than everybody else. No, I don't think that. She was not gonna ask you I said, do you think you're special? And I was like, no. It was like, and what do you tell yourself, like, in those situations? Like, how do you talk to yourself? And I was like, well, I just try to remind myself, like, you know, like, you have to be humble and like, you're not better than everybody else, and like, you're not special. And like, you know. And she was like, okay. She was like, so if that's how you talk to yourself, then when someone else talks to you the same way, you're not going to notice that that's out of the norm. You know what I mean? Like, that's. If you're. If you're. If you're communicating with yourself in that way, like, if you believe those things, you know? I was like, yeah, but it's one thing for me to humble myself, but I want my partner to build me up. And they were like, no, you have to build yourself up. That's not. You can't depend on another person to do that. Which was a really interesting conversation because I feel like sometimes we go into therapy so often when we're struggling with relationships and we're like, what's wrong with all these people? And then there comes a part where you have to take responsibility, you know? Like, one of the things I started, I had to take responsibility for, to end up in a healthy relationship was sort of this, like, toxic empathy. And like, this. This sort of, like, toxic. Not like people pleasing. But I was like, I was realizing that if I don't set clear boundaries for myself and people repeatedly cross those boundaries, it's my fault because I'm not giving them. I'm not communicating with them or giving them a chance to learn that that's a boundary. And then also it's building up, building up, building up, building up. And then I'm blowing up out of resentment. But they're confused because I never told them that that boundary was being crossed. And so, you know, that was a moment of where I was like, oh, God. Like, I. I have to also take a responsibility, you know, or like. Cause I went through a phase, I think, where I was really, like, I don't even. Like, I don't even ask my partner for anything. Like, I take care of all my own stuff. I don't bring myself into the relationship. Like, I'm not asking them to, like, support me or emotionally, whatever. Like. Like, I literally just, like, I take care of all my own, and I take care of them. And like, still, they can't even, like, be there for me. In the 5% I'm actually asking them to. And she was like, well, you're not showing up, honestly. She was like, you're not being yourself. She was like, you think that they're being like dishonest or they're being disingenuous, like so are you. And just because you think it's in a nice way doesn't mean that it's okay. Like you're not like this like self sacrificing act or whatever is actually you showing up and lying to them. And that shook me because when she first said it I was like, well no, I'm. I didn't do anything wrong. I was like, why are you telling me I did something wrong? And then I had to look at that and I had to be like, damn, okay, you're right. You're right. If I'm showing up dishonestly, even if it's well intending, right. I'm just as bad as it them.

Alex Cooper (61:38)

You know you have a great therapist. Who is this therapist? We all need this person. No, it's so true. Like not communicating something to your partner that you're like, like something is like festering inside of you and you're watching it all the time, being so upset and they have no idea you're upset about it. It's like, how would they know you're upset if you don't tell them you're upset? In one of your new songs, Panic Attack, I was listening to it and I was like, this is the most relatable thing I've ever heard. And so many people when they hear the song are like, yes, thank you, Halsey. I am, I have, I have two been there. You talk about, about struggling essentially to differentiate, like, am I having this like these panic attack feelings or am I falling in love? And like what is the difference? Can you talk about from your experience, like how those two are kind of similar in the beginning phase of a relationship?

Halsey (62:31)

Yeah, I think like, you know, if you're like anxiously attached, like you kind of get those feelings of like nervousness, like, and it's really easy to misinterpret those. I said this a long time ago. I have like a song from my, like a couple years ago from an album, Manic, a song called Graveyard, where like in the bridge I say, it's funny how the warning signs can feel like butterflies, you know. And so like I've kind of touched on this before. Panic Attack is like a more expanded version of it which is like, you know, there is that moment kind of of like you know, your heart's freaking beating out of its chest when their name pops up on your phone. What's that about? Is it because you're now entering this, like, dopamine cycle of, like, you know, you actually aren't sure? Like, if you're not sure, they're gonna answer you and then it excites you and they do. I don't think that's love. I don't think so. You shouldn't be putting that level of energy into a person if you're not sure that they're gonna have the decency to respond to your message.

Alex Cooper (63:27)

It's so confusing. And I love that you brought up graveyard because I was, like, gonna reference that. Then I'm like, no, but we have, like, a new and improved version. Yeah, they are. And I feel like those butterfly warning signs are so easily misconstrued in the beginning phase. And I empathize a lot because it's hard until you start to just have your life experiences and go through multiple relationships. And it's that again, us not giving you guys the answer, but knowing, like, the more you experience, the easier it is to kind of be like, oh, no, no, no. I've felt that way before and I know how this goes down. Like, I need to pump the brakes. But. But the beginning of relationships can be very hard to discern. Is this excitement or is this because this person is essentially like, love bombing me or whatever the fuck is going on? Or is it, like, slightly mentally abusive? But I'm seeing it as like, he finally is giving me attention. Oh, my God.

Halsey (64:23)

There's a validation also toxic. Like toxicity in relationships is addictive. It is. It's absolutely addictive. It's just like a cycle of like, like norepinephrine. Like, that's like an adrenaline chemical, you know what I mean? And, like dopamine and, like, you start to build patterns and, like, neural pathways to the ups and downs of feeling that, like, rejection, validation. Rejection, validation. Rejection, validation. And I remember when I kind of like, when I had had, like, some distance from, like, my most toxic relationship, and I was in relationships that were, like, a little bit more content. I do remember at times being kind of like, And I don't want to say this is any kind of, like, diss to the people who might hear themselves in this conversation, because, you know, this. This isn't. This isn't a diss. But I did find myself kind of bored and, like, not bored with them, but bored with the lack of intensity and the lack of the up and down. And kind of just like, wondering if, because I had experienced such highs and lows in a toxic relationship, if every other form of love was gonna feel, like, less than satisfactory to me.

Halsey (65:39)

So real.

Alex Cooper (65:41)

Yeah, like, that's so fucking real.

Halsey (65:43)

It's not true, because I'm very much in love now, and I'm getting all the.

Alex Cooper (65:48)

I see that, rain girl.

Halsey (65:50)

I will say to anyone listening, that's not true. But I do think there's a period of time where, like, safety comes, where you just kind of feel like it just doesn't hit the same and, like, you can't go back. I definitely was like, oh, I wonder if I'm just gonna be like, what is it for me? Is it contentment? Is it settling? Is it settling for safety? Do I get to have that same intensity without all of the danger? You know?

Alex Cooper (66:20)

And I feel like something I had to learn along the way, and it's. Everyone has to, like, take their time with it is like, you're right. The toxicity is addicting. But there's such a difference between, like, safe and boring or just not the same thing. And it can take you a really long time. But understandably, if you're on this roller coaster ride.

Halsey (66:39)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (66:39)

And then you're slowly just, like, sitting in the little. The, like, the game that you're just, like, riding around and it's slow. You're like, this isn't fucking fun. I want to be screaming my head off, and I want to have my hair all over the place.

Halsey (66:49)

It's like, what if we told you that, like, 10 people died on that ride, like, last week? And you're like, well, it was fun, though. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (66:55)

Keep going back. And it's like, why do we do this to ourselves? Because I was going to ask you about, like, you have written about these, like, volatile relationships that you've been in, and, like, when you do get out of them, I guess you just answered it of, like, what do you learn about yourself then when you get into new relationships that aren't as volatile? And it's like. I guess your answer was, like, kind of learning to be okay with peace a little bit more.

Halsey (67:16)

Yes and no.

Alex Cooper (67:17)

Okay.

Halsey (67:18)

Because then what happened was, is I was like, okay, I guess this is it. I guess I'm just settling for contentment. And then I realized that that wasn't true either. That was me putting safety before my happiness. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (67:32)

Because I was gonna say, like, if you have any advice to maybe someone that's watching this right now, that is like, Fully in that cycle of whether it's with an abusive partner or a toxic partner, and they just can't get out of it. And they're like, but I'll never find something that makes me feel, oh, you will.

Halsey (67:47)

You will. You have to heal first. When you get out, it's not going to feel that way right away because you need to heal. And then, like, that new healed version of you is gonna, like, you know, I don't know. It's kind of like when you get a wound and then, you know the wound hurts and it hurts and it hurts, but at least you're feeling something, and then it scars and the scar is numb and you're like, I don't have no feeling here. But then eventually new skin grows and you get to feel again, but it's not. It doesn't hurt. You know what I mean?

Halsey (68:12)

No.

Alex Cooper (68:13)

It's so. It's so hard to tell people when they're in it. We're like, I'm promising. I know you're. If you leave and you get out of it and you heal, it's going to get better.

Halsey (68:21)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (68:22)

I want to ask you, like, as an artist, because I feel like a lot of people have these moments where they collaborate with someone they were in a relationship with, and you've done that in the past, and you have this, like, very famous song with someone that you have, like, talked about, like, not having a good relationship with. Can you describe the feeling of, like, having a piece of art tied to a very, like, hurtful and not, like, positive experience?

Halsey (68:49)

I think the one thing I've been really smart about is they're never my songs. I'm always on their songs. And then, like, that's your problem, not mine. I get to do my whole catalog, and I don't have to deal with you. So, like, sorry, that's that. Some of your biggest songs have me on them. I don't know what to tell you, but I tend to be sort of the gatekeepy about my art for that same reason where I'm like, yeah, I'll get on your thing, but, like, not mine, you know, like, this needs to. This. I need to preserve this for. For myself, you know, I think whether I'm on a record with someone in our. And, like, you know, the relationship changes or not, or I just wrote a song about them. Like, songs just carry so much, much cellular energy. But the good thing about them is that they do evolve, you know? Yeah. Like, I've gotten on stage and sang the same song, like, over, like, I've. I've been singing without me for years, you know, and every time I sing it, it feels different. Feels like it's about a different thing. And, like, you know, I have so many songs that are about so many different times in my life or, like, experiences. And, like, I don't know. I think that. I think that I. I'll never shy away from being honest, you know, it's like. And if you have to deal with the consequences of that later, then so be it. But, like, I would rather regret. I'd rather regret being honest and being reflective of where I was in my life at that time than regret not saying something or doing something that I wish that I had. I don't know. I just. Just.

Alex Cooper (70:22)

It's a great answer.

Halsey (70:23)

Yeah. No features on this album, though. Just me. Nobody else getting in the way of my narrative period.

Alex Cooper (70:30)

There is a ring on your finger. We've gone through childhood. We've gone through your previous relationships and going through the mud to get to. Congratulations. You're engaged.

Halsey (70:41)

Yes. Thanks. I am, like, married.

Alex Cooper (70:43)

I know. It's crazy. It's insane.

Halsey (70:46)

I have to get all the tea from you.

Alex Cooper (70:47)

No, I have to tell you, it's insane. And it still feels weird to say, like, I have a husband. What is happening? You're a fiance.

Halsey (70:56)

I know.

Alex Cooper (70:56)

This is exciting. How did the proposal happen? Can you tell me?

Halsey (71:00)

Sweet.

Alex Cooper (71:00)

Tell me.

Halsey (71:02)

So he proposed in Barcelona. It's kind of like where we first started hanging out. So it's, like, really special to us because we had this, like, kind of this, like, these few days where we were, like. We were hanging out a bunch, and it was very, like, not, you know, I wasn't sure that I was ready. And so it was kind of like, you know. But I was also kind of like, you're literally the like, most amazing, like, smartest, hottest, nicest person I've ever met in my life. So also, like, please don't go anywhere. I'm going to. I'm trying to figure it out. Like, you know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (71:40)

Stay here. Just, like, give me a little time.

Halsey (71:42)

Yeah. And, you know, so he. Yeah, he proposed in Barcelona. It was really sweet. And immediately afterwards left to go shoot a show for, like, six months in Canada. And I was like, okay, bye. Yeah, so we. We haven't really had, like, the chance to be, like, engaged. You know what I mean? But he's coming home and, you know, just. Time for me to go start, like, all the album promo or whatever, and, you know, I think we're gonna get to have like our, our time then. But I never wanted to be married.

Halsey (72:17)

Interesting.

Halsey (72:18)

Never?

Halsey (72:18)

Never.

Alex Cooper (72:19)

What changed?

Halsey (72:20)

Avan? Yeah. I don't know. I never thought that I would ever want to be married. And then like I, I just knew I wanted to marry him. And I couldn't explain why because I would deconstruct marriage like from such a logical perspective beforehand. Like I was so like practical survival, like, like, you know, like fiscal like about it. Like, you know, the way that I was. I always broke down marriage and like I couldn't really understand the point of marrying just from like an emotional point of view. It was like, well, if you love each other, then just be together. Why do you get married?

Halsey (72:51)

Yes.

Halsey (72:51)

I didn't understand it. And then, I don't know, it was just something with him where I just knew I wanted to marry him. And like, I can't even explain why, you know what I mean? Because I do. I love him in such a way that I feel like we would be justice is fine if we didn't. But something about that makes me want to do it more.

Alex Cooper (73:09)

I relate a lot to what you're saying because I was very vocal. Like even when I met Matt, I was like, I don't want to get married. I never want to get married. Like, I thought it would threaten my independence. I was, I felt the same way. Like, why do we need a piece of paper? And then I just like knew he was the person if I was gonna do it. And I think that's so beautiful that it was just like something within you is like, I know this is right.

Halsey (73:32)

I just knew.

Alex Cooper (73:33)

And that's like. How did you guys meet?

Halsey (73:35)

We met kind of just like floating around. He was like floating around Europe and so was I. We were both doing like some like fashion week stuff and some like, I was playing some festivals and like, you know, we, I, we'd been like aware of each other. Like we follow each other on Instagram, you know what I mean? But it was like. And we, neither of us can really remember if we had like met in passing before that, I think I would remember. So I don't think we have. You know what I mean? But I always, I had like always had like a weird feeling about him, you know. And then, you know, I, I, I got pregnant and I was, you know, with my son's father. And then like I didn't have any feelings about anyone cuz I was like super committed to like making my family work and like, you know, this new life as like a mom with like my son. And so, like, I wasn't really thinking about any of that kind of stuff. And then I became a single mom and I was like, I am never dating anyone ever again, and it's gonna be. I had so much to figure out. I was like, it's just me and my son and, like, you know. And I was also really sick. I was really sick in, like, a life changing way. I was, like, not thinking about dating at all.

Alex Cooper (74:45)

Yeah.

Halsey (74:45)

And so then we met. We, like, met up for a drink one night. And I just remember walking into this bar, this, like, hotel bar, and he was just, like, sitting in this, like, little beer garden at the hotel. And I walked in and I saw him. And the only way I can explain it was. Is like, you know, like a vampire movie when the vampire, like, glamours you. Like, they do that thing that makes you like. Yes, yes. Like, it felt like that was happening to me. Like, I walked in all. Like. I walked in and I was like, hey. And he was like, hi. And I was like, hi. Okay.

Alex Cooper (75:18)

He Edward Cullen you.

Halsey (75:20)

No, he straight up, like, mind tricked me. Like, and he wasn't doing it on purpose. He just is very charming. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (75:27)

Yeah.

Halsey (75:27)

And I was just like, whoa. There was just like this, like, this warmth and this, like, light just, like, emanating off of him. It was so compelling. It was so alluring. I just, like, sitting at the table, just wanted to lean over the table, sit closer to him. Like, I was so. Just like.

Alex Cooper (75:43)

Yeah.

Halsey (75:44)

Drawn to him. Like, I don't know how to explain it. It was so. It was different than, like, when you meet someone and you're like. I could see this working and I'm, like, planning in my head, and I'm, like, doing the calculation of, like, how this would work out. And, like, okay, you're like that. And I'm like, this. And this would be good. It was just like. I was like, whoa. I was head empty. I was not head full of. I'm gonna get him math. I was head empty. I was just like, hi.

Halsey (76:10)

Yeah.

Halsey (76:10)

I don't know.

Alex Cooper (76:11)

We're all just, like, swooning in here. Like, whoa. Keep going. No, that is like. That's when you know there's something special.

Halsey (76:17)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (76:17)

What if you had to say, what do you love the most about him?

Halsey (76:23)

That's hard. I mean, he's so, like, freakishly, like, adjusted isn't the right word, but, like, there's nothing I could ever bring up that would freak him out. There's, like, no conversation. We can't have like in like a. Like he's so solution oriented. Like, everything between the two of us is always like, it's always with the, the goal of solution and bettering and like, you know, we're never like locked into like, who's gonna win this or who's gonna whatever. Also, he's just like. I remember when I first, when I first started seeing him, I was like, what's it gonna be? I was like, you are like super successful. You've been in this business for like a really long time. You're smoking hot and everyone on the planet knows it. I was like, what's wrong with you? And he was so nice and he was so family oriented. And like, I was like, oh, you're about to be the biggest psychopath of them all.

Alex Cooper (77:33)

You're about to ruin my life.

Halsey (77:33)

You're about to be the final boss. Like, you can't be like this. I was like, there's gonna be. Be what? Like whatever's wrong with you is gonna be like FBI's most wanted. Like, you're gonna be secretly like, have bodies in your basement. Like something. You have to have the worst thing ever wrong with you. And then it was like I was kind of like unsure for like a while. And then like, you know, as time went on. Well, first I met his parents and they're lovely. And so that's where I was kind of like, oh, maybe this is real. Maybe he is just that great. Because he's great. Parents like raised him really well.

Alex Cooper (78:02)

Yep.

Halsey (78:03)

And then, you know, he has got. He has a relationship with my son now, you know, and just like watching the way that he shows up for my son in like such a authentic way, I was like, okay, you really are just like the best person. And then came the panic of me being like, well, I don't deserve someone that great. And so I had to kind of like, it was short lived, but I had that little process of like, whoa, oh my God, if he really is that great, then like, what the hell is he doing with me? You know? And I. And then I had to kind of like, I had to start seeing myself. I had to value myself more, you know what I mean? Where I had to be like, well, I'm also really ambitious and I'm a really good mom. And like, I create like a really welcoming and like safe environment. I'm really patient, I'm really communicative and I'm rational and I am, you know, supportive and proactive. And like, I had to start seeing myself like, in that way to have Peace. And to not enter like a cycle of insecurity, you know.

Alex Cooper (79:04)

Dude, that must have been so refreshing because I think when you are met by a healthy, good partner who we all have our own, but like someone that's genuinely trying to be like, no, I really want to make this work and I don't want to you up and I don't want to be up and I want to do this together. Like you just start to raise your standard for yourself of like how you are going to show up. And like you said, it's so beautiful like, like with your child knowing how you care for a whole ass human being and how you show up for your child to see a partner like come into your life and be able to not only like embrace you guys but also add value to the dynamic. Like that's so refreshing and probably nice for you.

Halsey (79:49)

Yeah. It also forced me to do everything like really, really in the right way. You know what I mean? Like, becoming a single mom was like a real grown up wake up call for me. That was like a moment where I was like, I can't just like, like, you know, skirt past this. Like, you know, this has changed the entire dynamic of my life. Like it's changed everything about like my own feelings of hurt and wanting to act on those versus like what's right for my child. And like, you know, I had to, I had to like, I had already like speedrun grown up when I became a mom. But then I had to like secondary like speed run grow up where like I grew out of that not wanting to be inconvenient or not wanting to be a problem or not wanting to be clingy or not wanting to be extra. Like I had to grow out of that to date again as a single mom. Whereas like I wasn't in a situation where like, you know, I'm. If you're like, I couldn't be in a situation where I'm like texting a guy or like a girl or talking to whoever and I'm like, hey, so like do you want to make plans for next week? And they're like, oh, I'm not really like big into plans. Like I'll see you when I see you. Like, I couldn't be like, okay, like I had to be like, I'm a mom, I have a schedule, do you want to see me or not? And if you don't, then like, bye. You know what I mean? And so it was like I, it just like it forced me out of being able to like accidentally like people please I guess like make myself smaller because I was like, I can't, right? So like, what's up up?

Alex Cooper (81:17)

You know, that is like so beautiful to hear. And I'm so happy for you in like everything you've shared today. I feel like that has like beautifully led you to where you're at now where, like you are engaged, you are a mother. Like, you are so successful. You have this new album coming out which we have to talk about. Like, like I said, I was listening to it. I'm like, there is a lot in this album and it's called the Great Impersonator. What is the meaning behind the title?

Halsey (81:54)

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Alex Cooper (83:51)

Boom.

Halsey (83:52)

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Alex Cooper (84:42)

Okay.

Halsey (84:42)

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Alex Cooper (84:58)

Okay?

Halsey (84:58)

I like being taken care of. So thank you, T Mobile. Check out the VIP treatment@t mobile.com benefits.

Alex Cooper (85:07)

What is the meaning behind the title?

Halsey (85:09)

I think it's, you know, it's sort of. It's like a double entendre.

Alex Cooper (85:15)

Okay.

Halsey (85:16)

You know, like, on the one hand, I think it kind of touches on some of what we've talked about this time was just me figuring out that Halsey's kind of serving as more of an alter ego than like, just a stage name.

Alex Cooper (85:24)

Yep.

Halsey (85:24)

And, like, kind of admitting that and like, coming forward and being like, I've built a career off of being really honest and authentic. And maybe I haven't been as honest and authentic as I thought the past couple years. I. Maybe I have more to say. And what forced me into that was obviously getting so sick that I thought I was gonna die. You know, like, when you think you're gonna die, you have an existential crisis that is just, like, indescribable to your former self. Like, you kind of have to, like, live through it to understand it. And like, I just started looking at myself and being like, okay, if you do die, is this. You're happy with this. This is how everyone's gonna remember you. It's like the last thing you did, Last thing you said last. Like, have. You know, we tell ourselves a lot of time we have more time and like, we do, but, like, nothing is promised to us. So there's times where I was like, like, example, like the song about my dad. I told you. I was like. I was like, I'll do it on the next album. I'LL do it on the next album. Because I was too scared. And with this one, I was like, might not be a next album, bitch. Put it out. Speak your truth. There might not be a next album. You know? And so it kind of, like, forced me into the situation where I was like, I have to just act and do and be as truthful as I possibly can. But I started thinking about fate a lot. I started thinking like, okay, does everything happen for a reason? Right? Like, I'm born in 1994. Does that. Is that how I end up, Halsey, is because, like, I'm born at the right time, at the right moment. Like, if I'm born 10 years earlier, five years later, do I end up famous? Do I end up an art teacher? Do I end up, like, in jail? Like, what am I? You know? And then, so I was like, what if I debuted in the 70s? Like, what if I debuted in the 80s, the 90s? Like, I started exploring all these different, like, versions of me making music in, like, different decades. So in a sense, I'm kind of, like, impersonating other, you know, stars of. Of that time and kind of doing an exploration or, like, a thought experiment on that, because it's like, the big thing that kept coming up when I got sick was a lot of people, like, in the medical field were pretty adamant with me, like, you're sick because of your job.

Alex Cooper (87:31)

Interesting.

Halsey (87:32)

Some said it just directly in some, you know, in not so many words. Just kind of like. Well, like, stress and, like, lack of sleep and traveling and jet lag, poor nutrition, putting strain on your body. Like, these things can trigger autoimmune diseases. And the particular autoimmune disease I have, lupus, can trigger. You know, it can trigger leukemia, lymphoma, like, a lot of. A lot of, like, blood cancers. And, like, lymph cancers are more. More common in people who have chronic, you know, autoimmune conditions. And so they all kind of just trickle down to this, like, you're stressed out all the time kind of thing. So that led me to be, like, you know, becoming Halsey was, like, the craziest thing that's ever happened to me in my life. But, like, is this a consequence of that? You know? And, like, does it go this way no matter what? If I become Halsey's is how my life goes. Am I a single mom? Am I sick? Am I, like, is there any way to, like, beat that fate or beat that destiny?

Alex Cooper (88:29)

Can I ask, like, how are you feeling today?

Halsey (88:31)

Pretty good?

Halsey (88:32)

Okay.

Halsey (88:32)

Yeah. I, like, I came Back from. I came back from New York. I was there for the VMAs, and I noticed I was kind of starting to have a flare, like a lupus flare.

Alex Cooper (88:42)

Okay.

Halsey (88:44)

And I haven't had one in a little while because, you know, my disease has been, like. Like, you know, in remission. And I was kind of, like, thinking about it. I was thinking about how, like, a lot of my fans or a lot of my audience that's also dealing with chronic illness, they say to me all the time, like, I don't know how you do that. Like, you must be so much stronger than me. Like, I can barely get out of bed, or I can barely go to school, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want you thinking that I'm stronger than you, or, like, you can't accomplish as much as me. Like, like, I went and did the VMAs. I worked really hard that whole week, and then I had a flare as a consequence of that. That's reality. That's the risk. And you guys, like, the fans, like, you're the reward. And I have to kind of, like, balance that. Every time I do something, it's just, like, knowing that that's a possibility and kind of adapting to that new normal. And, like, so what happens then is, like, I have to rest or I have to go get treatment, or I have to, like, you know, I have to change certain things, but it's by no means because, like, I'm built differently than anyone else. It's like, I'm also in of significant position of privilege compared to most people who are dealing with chronic illness, you know, in terms of, like, you know, the. The treatments I can get, the access that I can get, like. And so I'm just using all of those things to kind of to mitigate what is my new normal. I definitely had a situation, like, a couple. A couple, like, weeks ago, and that's why I'm kind of, like, chuckling to myself about this flare, because I did the thing where I was like, I'm feeling so good, I don't know if I need treatment anymore. And so I was like, I'm gonna stop treatment. Like, I don't want to put this stuff in my body. Like, I'm gonna be fine. It's like, also, like, you didn't learn your lesson. You did that with antidepressants, like, first of all. But then, like, you know, I was like, I'm feeling really good. Like, I don't think I need to do it anymore. And like, you know, I'm putting all this, these medicines in my body and like, maybe I can just do it with like diet and like with whatever. And I stopped for like a little bit. I like skipped a treatment. Immediate flare. I was like on the flight home and like one of the first signs of a lupus flare is you get this butterfly shaped rash across your cheeks. I got up to go use the restroom. On the plane, I looked in the mirror and I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. No. And I kind of like had to like, I like walk ashamed back to my seat and like sat down and was like, damn. And that was a sad moment for me because I was like, I had felt so good. Like, you know, I was like on TV and on the carpet and I was like, I'm doing it again, I'm great and everything's good. And like it made me like kind of emotional because I was kind of like, I'm still sick, that's still reality. Like this is forever now. That was hard. You know, I couldn't just be like, well that was crazy those two years. Hahaha. Moving on. Like I had to be like, no, this is still, this is forever. I'm still like coming to terms with that like little by little, little.

Alex Cooper (91:32)

I can only imagine how hard that is. And like I, I think in different capacities everyone can find a way to relate to that feeling of like, oh no, no, no, I don't need this anymore, I'm gonna be fine. And then it, you go back to not being fine and you're like, this is so emotionally heavy to deal with.

Halsey (91:48)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (91:48)

But I do think that it's incredible that you have been open as much as you want to be about that, because I do again, believe it helps other people realize like someone that is as successful as you also is just not living this perfect fairy tale life and everything's fine. Like everything you're writing about in this album is so real. Like, what is the hardest song that like you wrote to write?

Halsey (92:11)

The Life of the Spider.

Halsey (92:13)

Really?

Halsey (92:14)

Yeah, that was like the hardest. It's like just like me in a piano kind of sounds like a voice note like a little bit. And every time I hear it I cry. Just like hearing my voice like in that state. And I wrote that song about being sick and about just like feeling like such a burden and also just feeling disgusting. I felt so gross and so terrible about myself when I was sick. It's like, you know, I was like, I was really gaunt and like my face changed and my face had just. My face and body had just changed because I just had a baby, you know, I was pregnant. Like, I went through all those changes, and then it changed again like this when I got sick so fast, you know, and I was like, vomiting. But then, like, you know, I was like, brushing my teeth. Made me scared because I was scared I was gonna induce more vomiting. And like, I was. I was just so sick and so gross.

Alex Cooper (93:15)

Yeah.

Halsey (93:15)

And like, I felt revolting. Like I didn't feel good about myself at all. And like, you know, I felt. I felt, you know, kind of trapped in, like, this cycle of feeling resentment from people close to me, you know, some real, some imagined, you know, I think both classic and just kind of this feeling of like everyone had depended on me for so long. And I. I kind of like, it was a hell of my own design because I told everybody for so long, like, I don't need help. I can take care of myself. And then I needed help, and everybody was like, what do you mean? Like, you conditioned us to believe that you take care of yourselves. And now you're getting mad at us because we're not helping, but we don't know how to because you've never let us before, you know, and so that was really, really hard, but also just kind of feeling like, God, what a. How dare I inconvenience you so much by. By being. Dying, Right?

Alex Cooper (94:26)

I was gonna say, like, like. But again, going back to everything you've shared today, like, you're used to being the one that's taking care of and fixing everyone. So, like, to ask for help must feel just so unnatural to you.

Halsey (94:39)

Yeah, but like, like, you need help.

Alex Cooper (94:42)

From people, you need support, you need people to be there for you. But it's hard to ask when you're someone that is not used to asking.

Halsey (94:49)

Yeah, a big thing for me was like a lot of my relationships. I felt like, because I'm traveling all the time and because I'm gone and because I am really, like, insulated and self sufficient in that way where it's like, you know, I feel like when you're in the public eye or like you are like, you know, you're financially, like, secure in the way that, like, you are in the business. It changes your friendships. Right. It's like, I'm moving, right. I don't have to ask my friends to come help me move because I'm just gonna move, like at the moving company and do the thing, or like, I need someone to pick me up from a surgery or like, Take me to the dentist or like, you know, whatever. And it's like, I'll get a driver. It's like you lose that kind of like village, community, we look out for each other kind of thing. But then on the flip side, I'm always taking care of stuff for other people, you know what I mean? So it changes the dynamics of the relationship. I'm also a spiritual person, so I also believe sometimes that like, you will end up in situations where if you're like spirit guide or your guardian angel or whatever it is that you believe, knows that you won't make a hard decision for yourself, they'll kind of put you in a position where the other person does it for you, but it's for you. You know what I mean?

Alex Cooper (95:56)

Yes. Like, you can feel it when it's happening.

Halsey (95:58)

Yeah.

Alex Cooper (95:59)

This whole album is incredible. I'm so excited for you. Last two questions, I promise. One, what are you most excited to perform? What song?

Halsey (96:07)

Okay, there's two for two different reasons. I really can't wait to play Panic Attack because it's just like such a musical song. Like, it's got like the piano. The piano's so warm and the guitar is so great and the drums are so like. I just imagine I'm gonna get on stage and feel like I'm a part of like a big band, like a 70s big band, you know what I mean? And like, with all the musicians on stage just like twirling around. It's very Laurel Canyon. It's got that like Fleetwood Mountain Mac vibe. So I can't wait to do that because I just feel like it's gonna be so like, classic, but then definitely the only living girl in la. It's a six minute song, so, like, I don't know how I'm gonna play it live, but I think there's so many fun moments for the fans to like, join in on, like ad libs and stuff that it's gonna feel like we're performing it together. And I love when a song feels like you and the audience are doing it together, not like you're doing it.

Alex Cooper (96:53)

At them, you know, it's so sad and beautiful and. And listening to it, I was like, Halsey, I wanted to, like, give you a hug. I was like, this is so sad, but it's so. It's really an incredible song. I mean, every single song is incredible. And you're such an incredible writer, but I'm just so happy for you because you are clearly so talented and everything that you have gone through in your career. And your personal life. To see this new work of art that you've put together is truly incredible. And I wouldn't say that if I didn't feel that way, like, listening to it in my car. I also chose to listen to it in the car because I was like, I need this in the car. And I. I'm so happy I got to meet you because your energy and your spirit and just who you are as a person, like, it does change my fandom over you even more. Like, I feel like an even bigger fan after getting to speak with you today. Thank you for, like, taking the time today because it was. I think the Daddy Gang is gonna freak out over this, and I know your fans will, but thank you for giving me the time.

Halsey (97:54)

Oh, my gosh, of course. Also, you have to teach me how to plan a wedding. I don't know what I'm doing. Trust me, I have no idea. I'm really overwhelmed.

Alex Cooper (98:03)

Trust me, I've got you. Because I was like, I didn't even know what I would want to wear. I was like the antithesis of a bride when I first started. And, like, I figured it out.

Halsey (98:11)

Yeah.

Halsey (98:11)

I told you I never wanted to be married. So when I'm talking, people are like, when you were a little girl, what did you dream about? Like, nothing. And I was like, I didn't. I have no idea. Right?

Alex Cooper (98:20)

Like, being successful.

Halsey (98:21)

I'm just obsessed with. With my fiance, and I just, like, like, want to, like, I want to crawl inside his skin and be, like, a part of him. And, like, I need a wedding where, like, I can either do that and it's not weird or, like, if there's something in place that prevents me from trying to do it. You know, Halsey, I could not relate.

Alex Cooper (98:41)

More to you, and I will give you all of the wedding tips that you need. Thank you for coming on Colorado.

Halsey (98:46)

Thank you.

Alex Cooper (98:47)

Thank you for having me.

Halsey (99:02)

Thanks to lieb by Yves St. Laurent for sponsoring today's episode, Make a Statement with Lieb L'nou, the fragrance that sets you apart. Shop now at Sephora. Hi, Daddy Gang, it is your father. I am so excited that Caller Daddy has officially joined the SiriusXM family. I cannot wait to talk to new guests and continue to share my crazy personal stories and experiences with you every single week. If you want to hear new episodes ad free, subscribe to SiriusXM podcasts on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

Halsey (99:41)

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Halsey (100:00)

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Halsey (100:06)

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Halsey (100:20)

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Alex Cooper (100:25)

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