← Called (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Called (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Called to Be Hospitable (w/ Fr. Mike Schmitz and John Hale)
00:58:35
What does true hospitality look like? It’s more than hosting a dinner party or planning a great trip—it’s creating space for others to encounter love, joy, beauty, and ultimately, God. In this episode of Called, Fr. Mike Schmitz sits down with John Hale to talk about the deeper meaning of hospitality, how pilgrimage can transform hearts, and why a “theology of abundance” changes the way we live and love. Whether you’re welcoming thousands or simply showing up for the person in front of you, this conversation will challenge you to live with greater joy, generosity, and magnanimity of heart. To receive updates on the podcast text CALLED to 33777. If you have a question or a story of someone living out their calling to serve others, email info@thecatholicinitiative.org.
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- [00:00]
A
Coming up in today's episode of called.
- [00:03]
B
What you can offer and what you can bring is limited. But hospitality starts with a theology of abundance. You know, the more we give, the more everybody gives and the more there is. If we channel God's goodness and his abundance and be that vehicle for him, it's like 2 plus 2 equals 10. Only God can do that.
- [00:26]
A
Hi, my name is Father Mike Schmitz, and welcome to Called, a podcast from the Catholic Initiative and produced in partnership with Ascension. So from the moment I joined the Catholic Initiative board, I was inspired by how clearly their mission reflects the heart of the gospel. Renewing the church by serving those most in need. And through the restoration of parishes and schools, they strengthen communities and they bear witness to a faith that is lived and not merely spoken. This podcast exists to share stories of courage, mercy, and hope that call each of us from belief into action as Christ teaches us In Matthew chapter 25, he said, Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. So every episode we'll explore how ordinary people are answering that call in extraordinary ways and how you and I can do the same. Today we're exploring the call to be hospitable, not just welcoming others, but creating spaces where people encounter beauty, belonging, and ultimately, they encounter God. The letter to the Hebrews 13:2 teaches us, do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. So we know this hospitality is more than kindness. It is sacred invitation. It has the power to transform hearts, to build community, to open doors, to encounter Christ in unexpected ways. And to help us reflect on this call, I am joined today by a good friend, John Hale, who is the president of Corporate travel Services. So John has spent decades hosting faithful events and creating meaningful travel experiences, from tours, educational tours, to vacations, to pilgrimages, in journeys that inspire faith, connection, and wonder. So, John, welcome to the called podcast.
- [02:11]
B
Thank you, Father Mike. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
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A
I am so grateful. We tried to do this conversation a couple times, and the last time we tried to do this conversation, you were actually on one of your tours. What kind of tour were you on when we tried to do it and just the Internet wasn't working, I was
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B
on a ship, we were producing some of our music cruises with our partners at Star Vista Live, and we had a team out at sea on the Flower Power cruise, which is a 60s cruise with beach Boys and a lot of fun music, and boy, we just couldn't get the connection. Father Mike it was the Gremlins after us.
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A
That's awesome. Yeah. No, I actually had done the whole intro and they were like, we lost John. And so I was just praying during this time, like, I'll be still there when I get done talking.
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B
That beach was just too, you know, too tense. Yeah, I had to jump. Had to jump in the pool too.
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A
Enticing.
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B
So.
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A
So in that you mentioned that part of what you do is like, you will have. You'll host many things, a variety of things. But one of those is like themed cruises. Is that accurate?
- [03:10]
B
They are. So our mission is to enhance lives through events and travel that build culture. And the way we feel that, you know, we've been called to build culture, Father Mike, is through travel and event related to education, music, faith and family travel. And we've had a partnership for many years with Starvis to Live. And they produce nine music cruises by theme. Country music cruise, like a yacht rock cruise, a number of cruises that are really fun and we're privileged to have our team on board and to service hospitality, to service future sales and event management. And it's been a great privilege. It's been a lot of fun, and we've learned a lot. And we've been able to apply some of what we've learned to some of the things we're doing in our faith division, which is the growth of the good news crews and some of our other events.
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A
Wow. That's incredible. So if we can go back to this, because you mentioned. So the ultimate goal is this accurate? The ultimate goal is, you said to create culture. Is that. That would be accurate?
- [04:14]
B
Yes. Yeah, I would say so. And through the work that we do that we can build a culture in kind of the broadest sense, a culture of, you know, of not just enjoyment or vacation, but really a culture that leads people back to the heart of Christ is what I would say. Wow.
- [04:32]
A
Wow. So then across the board is it's things like cruises. But could you give us kind of like, what's the breadth of the kind of things that get covered by corporate travel services?
- [04:44]
B
So we organize, as you mentioned, pilgrimages, and we've been privileged to serve you, Father Mike and Catholic Initiative a number of times. And, you know, so many remarkable experiences happen through the opportunity to serve others on pilgrimage. It's really instead of a vacation where you go away from. You're really journeying toward. And we're going back toward an understanding and a relationship with our Creator through these pilgrimage experiences. Education, where we learn, and it could be an 8th grade trip to Washington D.C. to learn about the political process, to learn about our history of America. It could be a family vacation, a trip to bring people closer together through a unit of experience, through generational travel, parents, family, friends, and then music. We have an opportunity to organize travel for bands, orchestras, choirs, including we've worked for and brought the Sistine Chapel choir, the Pope's Choir to the United States on a couple of tours. And we've brought many choirs to the Vatican and around the world to perform and again create a beautiful culture, just to create beauty and with the ultimate goal of leading people back to Christ. You know, through some of this work, we've established a number of annual or biannual events. One of them is called Voices in the hall and that's an event we produce at Carnegie hall. And we have 300 voices and typically a Christian or Catholic artist who performs and we sell out the audience. We've done this at Disney hall, we've done it three, three year series at Sydney Opera House and a lot of venues across. Across the world. Several, of course, in Europe, where we have a lot of our travel and tour going. So those are some of some of the events and some of the opportunities we've had to serve over the years.
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A
So it's not just Beach Boys and yacht rock, it's also the. Some of these world famous choirs that kind of like so pop culture, but also like high culture.
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B
Yes, absolutely, yes. We were just together on the Good News cruise and we had tremendous blessing of having Andrea Bocelli as our guest. And he boarded our ship and performed two concerts that were just, to me, remarkable to be in a 900 seat theater aboard a Holland America cruise ship with Andrea Bocelli and some of his friends and artists performing for us. Just beauty, absolute beauty. I mean, you can't, you can't hear his voice and just get to know him a little bit as we did through that concert, and not know that God is working through his voice, through his work. Let's get him on the call podcast, by the way.
- [07:30]
A
Well, no, so it sounds like not only are these opportunities, so you have your fun travel, you have kind of this elevated travel. You have political, not political, but educational, you mentioned already, as well as spiritual travel like pilgrimages and whatnot. But you didn't like I just. In our conversations, our friendship, you have. It's come up that you did not start your career in the travel world, you started your career in law. How did you make that transition from having a law career to now doing what you do now? With Corporate Travel.
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B
Yeah. Isn't it obvious?
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A
Exactly.
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B
Just travel to law.
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A
Figure it out.
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B
You know, it really is dad's popcorn trail and trying to get out of. Out of his way. And, you know, I had the blessing to go to law school. I was able to practice law for eight years, and that was a real formative experience for me, practiced primarily here in Detroit, Michigan. And my father in law started corporate travel 61 years ago. And he's an amazing man, Just an incredible, incredibly important mentor, and for me personally, and he invited me to join Corporate Travel. But I really, you know, it was a hard discernment process, and it was difficult to make that leap, primarily, Father, because of my own pride. It was, you know, fighting with, gosh, what will people think? You know, I couldn't hack into law, or I got fired, and I had no other option. I had to go work for my wife's dad, you know, and so there were a lot of those kind of struggles from his first initial invitation. And, you know, I wish I could say that you get over those struggles, but you continue to struggle. But it's good to have the history behind you to say no when you really give in and you have this firm understanding that God is calling you to something different, however strange and obtuse it might seem. It didn't seem any less obtuse to me then than it does in your retelling now. And yet I had this moment. I didn't hear voices, but I had this moment of real clarity. I mean, I literally was refinishing a door at our first starter house, and we, Kristen and I, my wife, were really kind of renovating the entirety of this home. And as I was, you know, scraping 60 years of paint and repainting this door, I had this deep sense that that's what I was supposed to do. I can't explain why at that moment or how, but it was. I was so convicted, Father Mike, that it. I just. I never looked back. Soon after I started in the business, within a year or two, there was September 11th, which, of course, was a tremendous impact to our business and scary time for all of us, for all the reasons we know, but also for us having two small boys at home and a wife and a house. But I really wasn't afraid, sincerely. I mean, I was troubled, and it was difficult, but I really wasn't afraid because I've had that God had given me sort of that epiphany or that conviction that, no, this is what you're supposed to do. And, you know, for months and probably years afterward, people scratch their head and were like, what are you doing? Like, why. Why did you go to law school? You know, why did you, you know, so there, you know, kind of came true. A lot of it was like, you know, there must be something more here. But, yeah, there was something more. God was kind of calling, I think.
- [10:48]
A
Well, that's fascinating because you're even saying that sense of, like, all the things you're saying, everything from that taking that step from what could be, I guess, maybe perceived by the world as prestigious to something that's like, oh, this is more humdrum. Or from something that's like, oh, wow, this is kind of rare, a big challenge to something that, like, you mentioned, like, oh, gosh, you're going to work at your wife's dad's place. Even that kind of adjustment. But that conviction of the Holy Spirit just, no, this is where I'm called to go. How, when you come to looking at this, would you say that there are those early experiences of even going to law school and working in law for a while that had prepared you for what you're doing now?
- [11:29]
B
Oh, for sure, absolutely. I often say, and, you know, it could be my own justification of spending all that time and money in law school and practicing, but I don't think so. I really believe that God was preparing me because it was tough. I mean, law school is difficult and the practice of law is difficult. I mean, these are often tough people, you know, very competitive people, and they take no prisoners. And I was at a large law firm, and I. Very early on, for whatever reason, I clerked for the Michigan Supreme Court for two years. So I was working for our highest court in Michigan. And you really had to understand and know and not confuse friendliness and professionalism with familiarity. I think that's been helpful in my career to understand, not my place, but sort of my role to serve. And, you know, I'm not the justice. I'm here to serve and, you know, to be young, to have those experiences. And then when I worked at the law firm, I actually. Our law firm was founded by Henry Ford many years ago, of course, and still represented the Ford family when I began. And I had the real opportunity to be a very junior attorney, but working for the Ford family as they assembled the land for Ford Field, which is where the Detroit Lions play here in Michigan. And the Detroit Lions are owned and have been owned by the Ford family. So that was an incredible experience. I mean, just to see how, you know, how to navigate, you know, big personalities in the Community because we were working with the mayor of Detroit, the governor, a lot of other local people who were involved and watching. I had some great mentors. So all of that was very helpful. Being in combative and difficult situations, having to make difficult decisions. And fundamentally, often you can think of law as presenting problems that are so big people can't solve them themselves. So they have to retain other people to think outside the box and to approach it differently. And so that happens a lot in business where you just have these big issues. Covid. I mean, they shut down the flights between Europe and the United States because of volcanoes erupting. I mean, all sorts of bizarre things happen in life. And I really believe that the law prepared me for that. It also kind of gave me this understanding that I don't think my personality ultimately was suitable for practicing law. I mean, it really can be a combative by its very nature. And you know, as you get into it a few years, you see, well, these people have this quality and this gift and I would say a calling that I don't think was my ultimate calling, but it was part of the calling. It was a stepping stone and a process. And so yeah, no, I think that was a very important part. I think everybody needs a boot camp in life. And that was my boot camp.
- [14:23]
A
It's funny you say that because you and I have talked about this before. We talked about how some college students, I was, I was having a conversation with some college students from some of your kids alma mater and they were talking about how stressed out they were and one guy had just gotten a he hired by a Fortune 50, maybe even law firm or firm. And I was like, whoa, you're complaining about how busy you are in college and you got hired by this place, but they're going to work you like even way you think you're busy now, wait till. And I was kind of that sense of like, you know, if you want to have a life that's, you know, kind of stress free, then maybe you shouldn't be saying yes to this kind of thing. And you pointed out that out. You said, you know, it's actually really, really helpful to have a boot camp. It's really helpful to have that kind of time in your life where it's like, no, you, you're kind of tested to a point where you kind of learn, you learn your boundaries, you kind of learn those limits and that sense of like, I'm going. And also you learn you can probably go further than you thought you could beforehand.
- [15:27]
B
For sure. There's no Question. And, you know, I don't think God shows us all. I think there's a mercy in God by not showing us the entire path from where we're standing from. And we've talked about this too, Father, even through Covid, because I think I would have made different choice as if I had known all the facts. God just doesn't, you know, we can't be trusted. At least I can't be trusted with all the facts today, for the future. When I look back on life, I know in reality that that's a mercy that God's extended to me in many ways is to not know maybe how difficult or how great something is or just to, you know, today, live today. Well, I always tell the kids, tell myself, you know, just do the next right thing. Whether, you know, we're in consolation or in some kind of turmo, let's just do the next right thing. And, you know, with. With God's grace and his mercy with us, he can help us to do that.
- [16:23]
A
Well, you, you mentioned Covid a couple times now for, for the world, you know, for a lot of us, that was a. To varying degrees was really upsetting. You know, in the. Unsettling. It was the kind of thing that, that really unmoored a lot of people and really changed our lives. But for you in the travel industry, where, when no one can go, when everyone's in lockdown, when people are quarantining themselves, when they're not able, not even like not wanting to, but not able to travel, like, how did you, was that a, was that significant? How did you manage that? What did that look like for you?
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B
I think that was probably the most difficult chapter of my life, to be sure.
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A
Wow.
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B
And for many reasons. I mean, one, just we had so many responsibilities to our clients, to our team, to our family. You know, this is a family business. I own the business with my father or my brother in Law, David DeFranco. My father in law is still living. We certainly want to have a going concern that's still going, but there were moments when you just didn't know if it could happen. And, you know, people were tremendously supportive and really amazing in their prayer and their support, helping us get through. But nobody really understood was the reality. And that is, oh, you know, you can't do your work. So that's what's difficult. That was difficult, but that wasn't the problem. The problem was we were. For anyone who knows the movie It's a Wonderful Life, you know, David and I were George Bailey standing There at the run in the bank, saying, you know, we have to cancel 40,000 people in the span of, you know, a few months. So 40,000 people.
- [18:00]
A
I mean, it takes me traveling over
- [18:02]
B
the course of those next months, traveling over the next 12 months, and everybody wants all their money back today. But like George, we don't have your money. We've invested it properly in the cruise line, in the airline, at the Passion Play in Germany, in Rome, in Carnegie hall, in all of these venues and suppliers and partners of ours who aren't for the most part, even answering a phone to get their money, our money back, so we can give their money back. So it was like this knot, and it just seemed absolutely, utterly impossible to get through. And if I hadn't believed in God before, I certainly would today. Because I know it wasn't certainly by our good looks or intelligence that we got through that tremendous crisis. Father. And you know me well enough to know that's true, too. It was really. I mean, I just say this. This is not, you know, false modesty. This is just truth that without, you know, God's mercy, his grace, there's just no way. And it went on forever. And if I had known that it was going to go on for that long, I certainly would have been out. I mean, I would have been looking for a job in law. I'd have been looking for a job at McDonald's. I'd have been looking for anything. But I certainly wouldn't have been, oh, we're just going to hunker down and suffer this day by day for the next two years. I'm not even close to being that strong.
- [19:26]
A
What is fascinating too, because not only does that speak to who you are and your character, even the character of corporate travel in that sense that, I mean, you're trying to honor every one of these, I guess, obligations to people. And that's the thing is, like, that hospitality isn't just that sense of like, hosting someone in your home. Hospitality isn't just kind of taking someone on a trip, but it seems like hospitality is. What is that idea of hospitality that's welcoming, that's honoring the other person? So we were talking about this as a staff here on campus that we say one of our virtues, one of our key behaviors, we call it over the top hospitality, which I realize does not even begin to reflect your over the top hospitality. But we're noticing that part of what over the top hospitality is, is getting back to people when they emailed you is to responding to people when they've called Is to basically, when someone has a problem, to do what we can to be able to solve it, as opposed to kind of excusing ourselves. And we see that as like, that's what caring for people is in kind of your everyday work. And so for you, would you be able to say, I mean, it seems like it, that if there's any reason, you could say, well, you know what? We're going to stop being hospitable. We're going to stop having that noble character. Where you try to do the right thing would be, Covid, our business is collapsing around us. The business isn't, but. But everything is collapsing around us. And so if we have an excuse, if we have a reason where we can just say, let's just stop doing this, you had the excuse, you had the reason. What was it that was in you? That's like, no, we can't just renege on what we owe.
- [21:09]
B
Well, I think that what I've always tried to reflect through a client who has communicated to me is that to have a theology of abundance, not a theology of scarcity. So when we're working with anyone, we tend to think like, either the client wins or we win. Either our supplier wins or we win. And we just try not to build any relationship based on that. We really work hard in our philosophy and in our prayer to embody God's abundance and that the more we give, the more everybody gives and the more there is. It's like 2 plus 2 equals 10. And that only God can do that, right? Only he can make more abundant. Whatever we put on the table, whatever cards we try to play. And so when we were, you know, it's tempting to think, you know, prioritize and variously, I'm sure we were tempted to that, to say, you know, whose priority today among our clients, our guests, our suppliers and partners, among our family. And I really feel like, again, God kind of gave us that view and that grace to say, no, if we do the next right thing and look at everyone and their perspective and listen to everyone in their perspective, he's going to bring good. He's going to bring an abundance, which I believe he has for everyone. I believe that our business has been blessed in so many ways because of COVID And, you know, I can see direct relationships and I can just see ways that he has brought abundance that we were not responsible for. It's only been a gift. And so I think that hospitality starts with a theology of abundance. You know, really believing that what you can offer and what you can bring is Limited. But if we channel God's goodness in his abundance and be that vehicle for him, then that is the beginning of hospitality and not this sort of, what can I get? Or what can get or what are the chips on the table? Which I think the world kind of. And business kind of teaches us, you know, some degree. But I just. I've seen too many examples in others in what God's done here to believe that that actually isn't the right view and that isn't the way to succeed by any sense of the word success.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah, well, it seems like you're caring for the other person. And you mentioned even before in law, where it wasn't like, you're not confusing friendliness or professionalism with friendship or kindness or something more than that. But it sounds like you're saying, but taking care of people is not just the heart of hospitality, but maybe even the heart of your business. Would that be accurate?
- [24:11]
B
I hope so. I do believe that. And the biggest part of that is our team who inspire me every day. I mean, they have a deep, deep sense of care. And I know, you know, you've worked with so many of our team here, and that's just sincere. It's not just extended to you, it's extended to each other. It's extended to our partners. And it's really humbling. They inspire me in so many ways. We had a difficult situation with a flight that was canceled just recently, and our team member, who I just love. I mean, what she endured and worked through to bring a positive result, didn't sleep for three nights, basically, and brought about such an incredible response. And that was all out of understanding that she can get the energy and the grace from God. And then being willing to. To do that is yet another step. And even during COVID Father Mike, we were at risk. We felt like I'm losing more than our business. For me, in some ways, sadly, I felt like I was losing part of my identity because my work. And I did feel like God had called me to do this. Going back to my earlier example, sanding my door, that, well, you have this sense of, well, why are you taking it away? Why can't I do this? And. And yet there's so many lessons to be learned from that because I'm more than what I do. I'm more than what I produce. And I'd sort of diminish my own self when I do that and continue to fight against that by human nature. But at least I was more aware of it during that time. And my wife, Kristin, Had a really beautiful response at a certain point, as we're kind of going along, because not only do we have these tremendous issues and very real problems and existential problem, where are we going to exist and how do we, you know, give back and make right all these relationships, but what do we do? Like, who are we? Like, this is what work is. And Kristen said, you know, if God is only permitting us to extend hospitality to each other and our five kids at this moment, then that's what he's permitting. And let's just do that really well. And whoever is able to be in our life, whether it's someone at the grocery store or at the of you're fueling up at the gas pump, we can still live that charism of hospitality and theology of abundance and love. And that sort of changed everything because for me, I said, well, that's true. I mean, God doesn't. I don't know that in his view, as if you have this embodied in you and you live this way, does it really matter? If it's 40,000 people or four people, because that's what he's permitting in this moment, then it must be okay with him. So it should be okay with us.
- [27:00]
A
That's a really. We need to clip that because that's very, very important right there. I mean, just that sense that I think sometimes I or we, or people could be kind of can start believing that, well, if God's called me to this, if he's given me this charism, then it's made for a large impact. It's made for this big stage. It's made for. It's made to do something amazing. It's made for 40,000. Right? That sense. And yet the reality, of course, is if God gives us a charism, if he gives us a gift, if calls us, and that's the whole point of the podcast, if he calls us, it's just to use it. However he's giving, in whatever circumstance he's placed us, in whatever season he's placed us, and to not kind of belabor or not maybe bewail the lack of abundance or perceived abundance in the sense of like, no, if I have the opportunity to exercise this gift that the Lord has given me in the service of one person, then that's the exercise of the gift that the Lord has given me. And that, just like you said, if it's okay for him, then it must be okay. It better be okay for me.
- [28:04]
B
Right? So it's just our pride, you know, it can become our pride.
- [28:08]
A
Right? Well, and you said that we were kind of stripped of that when it came to Covid in that sense of like, well, if this is my identity, if this is my charism that I've crafted and honed over the course of my year life and then also have made a living out of, well, now what? Which I think is fascinating, I would have the next question, which is, so for a lot of us, you know, we're not in the hospitality industry or hospitality business, and you did a great job of pointing out that it could be for 40,000 or for 4. How would you even just define hospitality? Or maybe that's too big of a question as to. But just kind of that sense of hospitality in a way that could be applied in my life where I don't have a lot of space to host people or I don't really have a lot of opportunity in my life to bring people on a trip.
- [29:04]
B
I think it's extraordinarily important to start with the person who's in front of you. And I believe that that's where hospitality begins. And this is a challenge for all of us. Father Mike we're all extraordinarily busy. We all have these electronic demands on our time. We want to be timely with email because that can certainly be a way that we show hospitality. It's not by neglecting communication, but communication becomes so overburdened that it overpowers our presence, our very presence. So I think being, to me, hospitality starts with being very present and extending ourselves, being hospitable, going back to the word hospital and, and caring for someone. And when you're in Italy, salve is a word that they use to address each other. Say hello. And salve is the root of both health and salvation. And so are we walking around bringing good health, good hospitality, goodness, and ultimately salvation to others through our small actions? If you know me, you know I love ice cream. And Chris and I were driving in Florida a couple weeks ago and I said, you know, I think we need a Culver's to end this. And so we pulled in and it was already late at night and Kristen was being hospitable to me by indulging me in my need for late night Culver's. And so I see that there's a long line outside, so I'm going to dash in and beat the system and get my concrete mixer more quickly. And it did not do anything to cut the line. I was waiting, waiting, and I'm tapping my toe and I'm watching and. And again, I'm welling up inside of me like, I want my concrete mixer. And then it was like, God pierced the moment. And I watched and saw how hard this team of people were working. And this young man came over to me and expressed. I don't know if it was my body language. I certainly didn't say anything. But he expressed, you know, his. I'm very sorry. Thank you for your patience. I'm sorry this is taking so long. And it was like, I just, like that. Like, just cracked. That exterior, selfishness, pride, just, like, cracked. And I was. And I just, like, saw him in a different way and noticed, like, you know, his smile, like, who he was and how hard he was working. And it was just this moment of. And then I struck up a conversation with him and thanked him, and I left and said those 30 seconds or 40 seconds were the best part of my day, because God sort of pierced that moment. And so, you know, whether it's a stranger or even more importantly, our spouses, our parents, our children, our friends, those we take for granted the easiest, those who become our flashpoints because we think they can take the frustration when they can take the heat the rest of the day. You know, I would start there. I think that's where we start with hospitality. And again, I'm, you know, communicating this advice with more fingers pointed back at myself, because that's a challenge, you know, not because we're bad people, but because we have a lot of demands on our schedule. We do have to balance that with being efficient and doing our jobs and our work. But just to be present, I think, Father Mike, I don't know, to make a long story painful, I think just being really present.
- [32:37]
A
Well, it sounds like what you're saying is that, you know, seeing people, noticing them, making the time for them, and ultimately what you're saying is being present with the knowledge of who they are.
- [32:49]
B
I always had this sense, too. I mean, going back to. I had very close relationships with my parents and my grandparents I was very close to. And I always had this sense, even when I was young, that it wasn't even so much me extending myself to them, but allowing them to extend themselves to me. So in that moment of always, you know, it's not like, oh, look at my generosity, look at my hospitality, you know, my amazing magnanimity in giving my time to someone else. You know, it is. You know, that's not the feeling or the thought process, obviously. It's stopping and realizing that, you know, we have a beautiful soul before us and allowing them to, you know, what is it that. How are they Christ to me in this moment, and those are the moments that are most transformative to me is when I can stop long enough not to just be Christ to others, but to really be attentive and listen. It's like that exchange of the Holy Spirit between God the Father, God the Son. We have that little mini exchange of God's love and mercy through the exchange of his love. And, you know, it sounds more grandiose than a small, simple exchange, but I think I believe that in my heart of hearts that, you know, if we can bring that love of the Holy Spirit to as many exchanges every day, that's the root and the beginning of hospitality. And then God will show us what other ways he might want us to live or have be an instrument of his hospitality.
- [34:20]
A
Well, I love that. That is not only. I mean, it's. I think sometimes the idea of hosting is we even say it like this. We say like, you're. We're entertaining. You know, entertain people. I mean, even the scripture from Hebrews, it says, you know, we entertained angels unaware. And so I think sometimes my mind goes to this of, okay, then I need to be charming. I need to be some kind of. I need to be entertaining. As opposed to what you're revealing is. Is like just receive people and, And. And let them be. In some ways, let them be them and kind of meet them wherever they are. Is the heart of hospitality. Because it's kind of like love. Love is what love is. Willing the good of the other. It has very, very little to do with what I'm getting out of this moment, but has everything to do with how am I choosing their good in this moment. And so you're saying making that space for them, being present to them is not entertaining, not charming, but. But receiving and just kind of. Yeah. Being more there for them than you are for yourself.
- [35:23]
B
Right. And I think, you know, actually delighting in them. You know, to.
- [35:26]
A
Delighting in them. Wow.
- [35:27]
B
To use a word that I think we have a mutual good friend, Mike Bishop. And I just think of the word delight when I think of Mike Bishop. I love him so much. And I was praying the other day and I was thinking of how what a delight it is to be able to in some way bring joy to others and then allowing other people to delight and bring joy to us and to know that we can be open. And again, it's. That there is a certain sense of pride in there that no, we're the ones. Especially if you're in the hospitality business or you have your touch on it in any way? No, we're the ones who are bringing the joy and the hospitality. We're the final arbiters of it. But if you can't receive, I don't know how you can give. And certainly we start by receiving from God, but I think receiving him through others as well, and allowing others to delight us with joy and then to be. Then I think we experience it more deeply when we have the opportunity. God gives us the opportunity to delight people. And I've always said to Kristen, as a man, one of my pride points is I just want to, like, say all the time, like, have the big reveal and like, ta da, look what I did for you, you know? And you know, so she knows, like, because I'm expecting a big response. And, and, and yet when you can transcend that and not do it for yourself and not do it. Yeah, right. Yes, exactly. That's where we really, you know, I think God can really work on us and through us and in us.
- [37:04]
A
Wow, that's amazing. And so I just love that. That sense, again, it goes back to about the other receiving the other, being there for them, loving, really. Ultimately. You've also mentioned that one of the big outreach arms of corporate travel is pilgrimages. So how is a pilgrimage different or what makes the pilgrimages you run different than a typical travel experience?
- [37:33]
B
So I think that there's a few things. One, all travel has an effect of detaching us from our daily routine. So that can be good, that can be helpful. Whether it's a retreat, a day away, or multiple days away, I think that's helpful. And then it becomes a question of what are we doing with that time. And I have always felt that there's four pillars of pilgrimage, and the one is that element of breaking away. So often you're going somewhere foreign, somewhere that's. Even if you've traveled overseas a lot, you've been through an overnight flight, you have a different tongue, you're listening to, you have different foods. Things are just done a little differently. And that sets us a little off balance no matter how many times you traveled. And that's good because that's then where the Holy Spirit can work. The second is then the witness of the people in that place, because that's what we pay attention to typically on a pilgrimage, is the witness. Whether we're in the Holy Land or in France or Italy, wherever we are, we're really leaning into what heroic virtue looks like through the lives of the saints. And that again, continues to open us up. And then we pray for all our pilgrimages that the Holy Spirit draws who is supposed to be on this pilgrimage. So we try to be very comfortable. If it's nine people, let's find a way for this pilgrimage to operate. If it's nine, 90 people, and we were expecting 40, let's find a way for those last 50, because that's who God's called. And we prayed for people to be receptive if they're called to go on this pilgrimage. So that means there's an intentionality of who's on a pilgrimage. And we always invite people to consider. Back to our conversation a minute ago. How are you to be Christ for others? And how are others there to be Christ for you? So that community has a very important component. All of those three then serve to lead us back ultimately in anything we do, back to Christ through the sacraments, through confession, and through Mass, the Eucharist. And so that, to me, those are the four pillars. Why a pilgrimage, or you could say a retreat, are different than a vacation. A vacation is to get away from. And then that's it. We don't have the alarm clock. We don't have our creature comforts, but we have other creature comforts that we might, you know, attached to. But when on pilgrimage, what fills in that void is the community, the witness, and then ultimately the sacraments. And through that being off balance that we all experience when we travel, no matter what, that's how I feel like God opens our hearts and cracks it just a little bit.
- [40:13]
A
Dad, that's amazing. Have there been times when you've. I mean, obviously you've seen someone's face profoundly changed on these pilgrimages? Is there any, like, an experience or a story that you'd be willing to share with us of someone who's like that? Their life, their faith was profoundly changed during one of these pilgrimages with y'.
- [40:32]
B
All. Absolutely. I mean, there are so many Father again, only by God's grace. And there was a couple who we were quite close to and were helping us with our kids when they were young, and they would babysit because we would have to travel. And they were falling away from the church. But they were good Christians and great people, and we love them dearly. And they were just praying every day that we might have a better understanding of that the Catholic Church really wasn't away and that we were on the bad track. And ultimately they had the opportunity to go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and came back to the Catholic faith. Wow. And now continue to be dear friends And I think that there are so many stories. Gosh. We have a dear friend who was. She's been very public with this story. She was on a pilgrimage. And I happened to be on with Father John Ricardo almost 25 years ago, and she was hungover. And the morning we were going to
- [41:32]
A
Assisi, she was hungover. Like drunk. Had been drunk. Not just like. This isn't like a pilgrimage term. She was hungover.
- [41:40]
B
Yes, in the secular sense.
- [41:42]
A
And Gotcha, gotcha.
- [41:43]
B
You know, Father John was Ricardo, who, you know, was not having it, and he was pounding on the door. He said, you're going. We're going to Assisi. We're in Rome. And she had a profound experience in front of the San Damiano cross that spoke to St. Francis and spoke to her, and ultimately, you know, totally reformed her life. She was on pilgrimage with her mom and then became a sister, and she's now a tor sister. Sister Rita Claire Yoches. Wow. An incredible friend, incredible lady. And, yeah, Father, you know, I hope my reward isn't here because God has given us the consolation of knowing that the work of this team and the work with you and, you know, many amazing priests throughout the years has made a difference in people's lives. And that is rewarding. And, you know, try not to be prideful in any way about it. Try to really understand that it has nothing to do with any of us, but it's a grace that God has given us to know again that we have had some share in bringing joy and delight to others and transforming a life.
- [42:48]
A
Well, in that, you know, you're allowing for God to work. But I just think of. I've been on many pilgrimages with corporate travel, and I have. Just like that. I just want to, like, say, you're so good at. The whole company is so good at all the logistics and all the details and people who are going over and above. But also there's something about just all the planning that has to happen. How do you have this where you've planned out? You made so much structure so that people can be taken care of. And so we're going to get from here to there, and there's going to be stops for bathrooms and all the things you need. How do you. Do you actively think of how are we going to make space for God in the midst of all that structure? Or is it just like, no, we're going to these places. He's going to be there. We're going to take care of the details and God will take care of the miracles. How do you make space for God.
- [43:43]
B
Yeah, the latter. I really think God does. I mean, he just comes, he shows up, the Holy Spirit. You can't necessarily plan for it other than to know that he will and to trust in. I do think that we employ strategically some tools, and those aren't by our brilliance or design. I think God has kind of showed them to us sort of in deconstruction. And I'll use the Good News Cruise as one example. When we started the cruise, there's a long history of how we decided to do that. But our first sailing was in 2020, just before COVID literally about a month before. And there was so much joy, so much laughter. And that served as an opportunity to break down barriers among almost everybody. That again, for the purpose of leading people back to the sacraments, back to Eucharist. And I'll never know what number of people were struggling in their marriage or personally. But what I have heard anecdotally, a lot, and a lot more than I ever thought I would hear, is that I was sort of dragged on this cruise. I came unwillingly or unwittingly. I didn't fully know what it was. And yet, because of our mc, Father Joe Krupp, Teresa Tamio, Father John, so many people who have a willingness to bring joy and laughter. It's kind of like the great equalizer. I mean, the media, secular media, often uses fear and anger, I think, for a means and to kind of well up in us, this angst. And I think God has shown us that using like joy and laughter can have a profound effect, like a beautiful opportunity to open our hearts in a way that it's emotion and he has used that emotion. And then there's, you know, I know a lot of people, particularly men, who say, oh, I'm not opted out. You know, I sort of opted myself out because I'm not worthy. And then he's there for the week and he realizes, oh, none of us are worthy. I didn't know that. I didn't know that you believed that. I didn't know. I thought you were like a holy roller and that you thought you were worthy. And I'm not. Oh, no, that's the whole thing, you know, none of us are worthy. Like, we're all on our knees. We all need to be on our knees. And that has been, you know, such a joy to witness and to see what God has done through that. So I would say again, to make a long story painful, that there is this sense that we try to create an atmosphere of joy I think any apostolate or work that is done with a spirit of what everybody else is doing wrong, an apostolate does not make, you know, you have to be willing to do something to be out there yourself and then to see how God is using it and can refine it and improve it. And then that is what I think he's done through us to allow the Holy Spirit to work. Does that answer the question?
- [46:46]
A
Yeah, it totally does in that sense of.
- [46:48]
B
I mean, that's the one intentional thing I think we do now because God showed it. We didn't go into it saying, oh, this is what we're going to do. I think we deconstructed it after a couple of cruises and said, oh, that's what God's doing. I see. Now, how can we replicate it? How can we create that atmosphere and then let the Holy Spirit do the work?
- [47:06]
A
It makes so much sense, too, because you're taking care of people. I mean, it's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the sense of, okay, we need to. Okay, am I fed? Am I rested? Am I taking care of. Like, grace builds on nature, right? Elevates it and perfects it. So if grace builds on nature, then you're taking care of people's nature, right? You're not only taking care of their being. Again, fed and rested, but also. Okay, but you're laughing now. And so there's this place of maybe some more equilibrium or peace or this place of rest where you're not defensive, you're not on guard, you're not going to be attacked. And it's so interesting that you're even giving the example of people who were like, well, I thought everyone here would be like the Holy Rollers and they would think that I'm disqualified. And we could say that till we're blue in the face. Like, no, no, no, that's not it. Everyone's called. But you're creating spaces where everyone or everyone who's called to that particular pilgrimage or that particular trip is. There's space for them and so that they actually get to experience it, not just kind of like, hear it in their ears.
- [48:08]
B
Right? Yeah, I'm not.
- [48:09]
A
I just.
- [48:10]
B
Imposter syndrome, you know, feel. And we all have that. I'm not worthy. Yeah, that's the point. Now you'll get it. Yeah, I'm sorry.
- [48:18]
A
No, no, it is good, because I'm just thinking about this. So one of the things with this podcast is it's about, okay, here's what you're doing. Here's how you're living out this charism of hospitality. But of course, we know that not everyone will lead a pilgrimage. Hopefully, many of us will go on a pilgrimage. We probably won't run a travel company, but we're all called to be hospitable. So what's one or two ways that you would say, this is what in your mind, this is what hospitality looks like in everyday life?
- [48:44]
B
Yeah. I would start by creating a beauty. I think beauty is the beginning of again, another beauty and joy, laughter, cultivating that in your life because it's hard to be mad at those around you. It's hard to feel cheated, and it's hard to feel negative emotions when we have positive ones. So if we have a spirit of gratitude, hospitality, and beauty, and I think everybody can do this. Yeah. Not everybody has the opportunity, and we understand that, to be on the conferences or the cruises. We try to reach people, but we also hope to inspire people, you know, to create this way of life. We were very intentional with our kids growing up, having families around us. And a lot of the events, our Mackinac island event that you've attended generously many times, Father Mike, called the Grand Getaway every summer, grew out of a few families going to Mackinac island together. And then we started bringing a priest, and we said, oh, we can have fun. We can push each other off bikes and, you know, try to drown each other in the pool and. And then we can be on our knees and sing the rosary together and then having mass together. So I think there's a lot people can do. Actually. This is a passion of mine, I really think you cultivating in your own home, in your own space, you know, go outside. You know, when it's Thanksgiving or Christmas, like, literally, we do a lot of hosting for family. And I like this. I love nature. And I go outside and start clipping, like, whatever I can find and bring it in the house. And my wife, who has an eye, can create, you know, different things in the house to decorate. And some of our kids, our daughter Anna, in a particular way in the summer, you know, we plant. We have these plants all over our house, and we never buy flowers, but we bring them in the house. And we light candles for every. For every meal, every dinner. And we make it kind of an event, something special set apart, you know, which is that. Which is sacrament. You know, there's something sacramental. And if you have that intentionality in your own life, in how you live, you know, not to over, you know, overdo this, but just to Introduce it. And then I think when. To our conversation earlier, when you have sort of that little bit of that joy and that beauty in your atmosphere and in your life, in your surroundings, when whoever you're welcoming into your home, but then bring that with you on your way. And then, of course, everything has to be anchored in prayer. I mean, that's the hardest thing for me. It's the hardest thing for all of us is to start every day and end every day in quiet prayer. And for doers, that's hard. And I think for everybody struggles with this. But I just think you're, you know, you literally are clipped from the vine. You, you know, you scripturally are. You can't get the life in you that you need without prayer. That is our life. That's the way we're connected to God, and that's how we can hear Him. And it might not be in that moment, and that might be the dry prayer, but I think I know you will hear Him. You'll see him through others. You'll see him at the Culver's store when you get in your concrete mixer. You'll see him when you're a little nervous about something and he'll give you a consolation. And there's just so many ways that God does and will appear. I was watching my own son with our grandson the other day, and you know, our son John was running around with Johnny telling him, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm just sort of a little more detached than when you're a parent and watching him. And I'm thinking, John's one year old. He's like, who is this dude running around telling me no to everything? Can he just, like, get out of my way so I, I can do what I want to do? And I think of the analogy with God and God the Father, God the Son, and how he sees us. And yet the minute something goes sideways, Johnny, da, da, da, da, da, da. And that's all of us, Father Mike. I mean, if we're not connected to him, if we're not listening for that voice of yes or no, we only run when it's like panic mode. And we certainly have to do that. But we can't live the life God wants us that he's calling us to live if we're not anchored in prayer and the sacraments.
- [53:07]
A
Yeah. Wow. Two things I heard in there that were just so powerful. One is there's the mentality of. And I don't want to just blanket statement this, but kind of the more the Merrier that there's something in our hearts that is like, no, I just. I want my people. I just want my. This is our thing. And like everyone else is outside, as opposed to looking. It sounds like hospitality begins with looking for those places where, you know, what we're having here. This is a time of joy. This is a space of beauty, goodness. Maybe this is family or whatever this is, and someone wants to join, or someone is able to join. Great, come on over, Come on in. And there's that sense of. Again, there might be a limit in the sense that it might stop working at a certain critical mass, but there's a mentality or even a heart that seems open to. Yeah, come on in. I think, because I think sometimes we have. Me, I have a small heart and think it's more fun if it's just us. I don't know if other people can be part of this. And maybe that is the case sometimes, but it seems like that hospitable heart would be at least open to considering. Can we invite this person in or these people in to the joy, the love, the fun we're having right now? And that would be a good place to start.
- [54:22]
B
And I think looking for actually people who need or want that because God has put in all of our lives, people are having a difficult moment or a difficult life. I think the prayer earlier in the day or if you're in communication, allows you to kind of say, no, that's not who you are. That's not who I'm calling you to be right now. And then opens up your hardened heart. My hardened heart. And then, then you're just like. You walk away and you're like, oh, my gosh, that was like beautiful, you know, conversation. And I've been transformed and. And through hot. Through. What is hospitality?
- [54:58]
A
Yeah. Well, you had used the word earlier, magnanimity. And it's that. That largeness of heart, right, that. That openness or largeness of heart that is able to, like, not only again find, make space for someone, but also look for space where you can meet
- [55:14]
B
people, you can close in on yourself. You know, Bishop Barron talks about a pusillanimous heart. Yes. You know, you. And we do we want to close in on ourselves or. But the better place to be, of course, is, I think, to be open in that magnanimous heart. We can't do it alone, Father Mike. I know I can't.
- [55:31]
A
Yeah, well, I'm so grateful. Like you said, it's that open heartedness that can find where if we find our place if you want to say it like this, you mentioned that, that, that multiple times. That place for quiet prayer where we're listening to the Lord. If we can find ourself in his heart, then we can find room in ours for the people around us. Any last words that you'd like to share with us before we conclude our time together?
- [55:55]
B
Well, I just. I want to thank you and Bulldog Catholic Father, for all you're doing. The Catholic Initiative, I think there are so many. I think this is a moment of great hope. And I think, you know, Catholic Initiative, Bishop Barron, Father John Ricardo, they're so. I shouldn't name. Because there are just too many people out there and then so many more who are quietly doing extraordinary work and that are making a difference in people's lives. And I think we have a great opportunity right now, I think, as a church, to come together and to have hearts of love and magnanimity, not, you know, not close in on ourselves in any way or, you know, so I think that's a challenge and an opportunity that I just want to thank you for inspiring so many of us and really implore everyone, to the extent that we can, to have that charitable, that loving heart that is going to continue to grow. I mean, people aren't going to be attracted to Christ if we aren't an attractive disciple. So that's where we got to start. Amen.
- [57:03]
A
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that because it's a good reminder for me, too. And I've experienced that in my friendship with you. I'm so, so grateful. And so, once again, John Hale, Corporate Travel Services. I would say that, you know, it's one of those situations where I'm like, I don't want to travel with anyone else other than corporate travel services. And not just because of the friendship with you and Kristen and your kids, but also because it's just so good. You live that charism of hospitality so well. And I'm just very, very grateful for you as well.
- [57:35]
B
Thank you, Father Mike. A blessing to be with you.
- [57:38]
A
Thank you. So, you know, thank you for listening to cald. This podcast is made possible by the Catholic Initiative, which is inspiring bold faith in action by investing in vibrant but under resourced Catholic communities through the restoration of iconic parishes, schools, and community institutions. If you want to learn more about the Catholic Initiative's projects or discover how you can make a difference, you can visit the CatholicInitiative.org Again, that's the. Or the CatholicInitiative.org Remember, the gospel is more than words. It's a way of life. Jesus has told us this in Matthew 25 when we serve the least of these, we serve him. So until next time, let's keep listening for God's call, and let's have the courage to answer it. God bless.