Called to Unify w/ Fr. Mike Schmitz and Dave Arnold

Summary

Podcast Summary: Called to Unify

Podcast: Called (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Host: Ascension
Episode: Called to Unify w/ Fr. Mike Schmitz and Dave Arnold
Date: November 14, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the power and process of unity, reconciliation, and healing—personally, in communities, and across entire nations. Fr. Mike Schmitz sits down with Dave Arnold, a business leader turned pastor and strategic director at Saddleback Church, to discuss his experience with the transformative Peace Plan in post-genocide Rwanda. Their conversation covers the heart behind Dave's vocational shift, the practical outworking of faith in service, and lessons for listeners seeking to answer God's call in their own lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dave Arnold’s Journey from Business to Ministry

• Background: Dave spent 25 years in the medical device business, even taking a company public ([03:54]).
• Calling: Inspired by Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven” vision, Dave felt a personal call to shift from donating to directly participating in ministry ([06:11]).
  • "He talked about the layperson, he was going to turn the audience into an army... It busted the paradigm I had and made me feel like I could do it, but should do it." – Dave Arnold [06:11]
• Vocation Decision: With his wife's crucial encouragement, Dave volunteered at Saddleback, even when his business board thought it was a “midlife crisis” ([09:29]).
  • "They said, okay, Dave, this is a midlife crisis. We've all had them—do what we all do, get a sports car, get a girlfriend...this is bad pizza." – Dave Arnold [09:29]

2. The Peace Plan – Vision, Goals, and Origins

• Concept: Local churches are empowered to address the world's five major problems: poverty, disease, illiteracy, spiritual emptiness, and corrupt leadership ([01:01], [14:19]).
• Roles: Rick Warren provided the vision; Dave oversaw operations, leveraging his business background ([14:19]).
• Lay Leadership: Emphasis on equipping ordinary people (the laity) to be active agents of change, not just spectators or check-writers ([06:11]; [11:49]).

3. Rwandan Genocide – Context & Aftermath

• Background: Rwanda, a densely populated, landlocked African country, suffered a 100-day genocide in 1994; nearly 1 in 10 people were murdered—mostly by neighbors ([15:00] through [18:46]).
  • "These were neighbors, these were people your kids went to school with... Pastors, the local... There was horrific. Nobody was untouched." – Dave Arnold [18:46]
• Aftermath: Three groups left—perpetrators, victims, and witnesses—all traumatized; over a million orphans in a population of 10 million ([15:00]).

4. The Peace Plan in Rwanda – Implementation and Impact

• Invitation: Rwandan President Paul Kagame, after reading “Purpose Driven Life”, invited Rick Warren to help unify and rebuild Rwanda ([19:13]):

  • "He called Rick and said, ‘I would like you to help me make us a purpose driven country.’” – Dave Arnold [19:13]

• 3-Legged Stool Model: Government, business, and church must work together for lasting change ([19:13]).

• First Steps:

  • Removed Hutu/Tutsi labels from IDs—"we're all Rwandan" ([21:54]).
  • Prosecuted perpetrators (orange jumpsuits as accountability and public contrition) ([21:54], [27:06]).
  • Pastoral Apology & Unity: Brought together 40 denominations, fostering relationships between Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, and other church leaders ([23:11]).
    • "I like my Catholic brother, I like my Anglican brother... we agreed the church had to step up..." – Dave Arnold [23:11]

• Justice & Forgiveness: The process included accountability (justice), public contrition, and an invitation to forgiveness.

  • "You cannot not resent, you can forgive and not forget... someone has to absorb the pain." – Dave Arnold [25:02], [26:05]

5. Revival, Transformation, and Local Empowerment

• Role of the Church: Shifted from political/tribal leadership to true spiritual leadership—restoring trust and rebuilding community ([29:14]).
• Tangible Impacts:
  • Over a million Rwandans moved above the poverty line.
  • Drastic improvements in public health, education, community life ([30:25]).
    • "We literally moved over a million people above the poverty line financially because of the businesses and things that were developed through the peace plan..." – Dave Arnold [30:25]
  • Focused on equipping locals, not outsiders, to be the ongoing protagonists in their context ([33:11]).
    • "We wanted to have the local pastor be the hero, not so Saddleback Church came... But now he's the hero because he's going to be there marrying and burying and counseling long after I go home." – Dave Arnold [33:11]

6. Principles for Global Application

• Subsidiarity: If a problem can be solved at the local level, it should be ([32:28]).
• Man of Peace: For the Peace Plan to work elsewhere, it needs a “man (or woman) of peace”—local leadership open to partnership ([40:38]).
  • "Go into the town, find a person who's going to listen to you and work with that person. And if you don't find the man of peace, dust off your shoes and keep moving." – Dave Arnold [40:38]
• Listening over Dictating: True impact starts with listening to local needs, not importing foreign solutions ([42:54]).

7. Personal Transformation and Call for Listeners

• Transformation: Dave recounts how ministry softened and deepened him, and “made [his] wife like [him] more.” He credits the Bible’s principles with guiding true relief and transformation ([44:06]).
  • "My heart's been softened, my worldview's been widened... I feel incredibly blessed that I had a front Row seat to see some incredible things that God clearly did..." – Dave Arnold [44:06]
• Practical Advice:
  • Love God. Love people.
  • Begin with simple, daily acts of availability and help ([47:45]).
  • “If we all just did one more of those a day... we would move it forward.” – Dave Arnold [47:45]
  • When in doubt, “Tag, you’re it.” ([49:07])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "He was going to turn the audience into an army." – Dave Arnold [06:11]
• "The Holy Spirit speaks very often through other people and very, very often to your wife." – Dave Arnold [08:54]
• "This is a midlife crisis... this ain't going to last. This is bad pizza." – Dave Arnold quoting his board [09:29]
• "God doesn't waste a drop of you. He may not use it all every single day, but..." – Dave Arnold [13:46]
• "We want to eliminate the Hutu/Tutsi distinction... we’re all Rwandan. Hard to do, but brilliant." – Dave Arnold [21:54]
• "You cannot not resent, you can forgive and not forget. So they knew someone had to absorb the pain." – Dave Arnold [25:02]
• "People that stay angry are drinking poison, hoping the other person dies." – Dave Arnold [28:12]
• "We did 40 days of purpose... as a country, so anyone could participate." – Dave Arnold [30:25]
• "It was the power of God with the collective work of churches, plural, 40 denominations coming together." – Dave Arnold [30:25]
• "The price of admission of being a member of a church is also being on mission." – Dave Arnold [38:27]

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Important Timestamps

• Dave Arnold’s Call & Shift from Business to Ministry – [03:54] to [09:29]
• The Peace Plan Explained – [11:49], [14:19]
• Rwandan Genocide and Aftermath – [15:00] to [19:13]
• How Peace Plan Addressed Rwandan Wounds – [19:13] to [30:25]
• Practical Principles (Subsidiarity, Man of Peace) – [32:28], [40:38]
• Personal Transformation Reflections – [44:06]
• Advice for Listeners: “Love God, Love People. Tag, you’re it.” – [47:45] to [49:12]

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Service is for everyone. Ordinary people can make extraordinary, lasting changes.
• Reconciliation is both justice and healing. Real unity requires accountability, forgiveness, and sometimes painful honesty.
• Transformation starts locally. Solutions must be homegrown, empowering local leaders and communities.
• Being available and attentive to needs is powerful. Big change often begins with one person being willing to listen, love, and act.
• You are called. If you see a need near you, “Tag, you’re it!”—step up, love God, love people, and be the answer to someone’s prayer.

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“Remember, the gospel is more than words. It's a way of life.” – Fr. Mike Schmitz [49:12]

Transcript

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Coming up in today's episode of Called.

[Dave Arnold]

We started a company which we took public, which gave me some resources and did that for 25 years and literally was sitting in church and our pastor, Rick Warren, who had this vision for the world, I sat there spellbound. My wife looked at me and I looked at her and I said, well, who do you think does that? And she said, you should do that. A gentleman named Paul Kagamen was one of the liberators of Rwanda after the genocide and still is the president of Rwanda today. He read Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book and he called Rick and said, I would like you to help me make us a purpose driven country. After we were finished looking back, we literally moved over a million people above the poverty line. Rwanda today is the envy of all of Africa and economically and socially and spiritually the envy of all of Africa, really. No question about it.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Hi, my name is Father Mike Schmitz. Welcome to Called, a podcast from the Catholic Initiative in partnership with Ascension. When I first got involved with the Catholic Initiative, I was inspired by their heart for renewal, to strengthen the church, and to serve those most in need. Their work revives parishes, it revives schools, it builds up communities, and it reminds us that faith isn't meant to be, isn't meant to stay in our hearts. Our faith is meant to be lived. And that's what this podcast is all about. Real stories of mercy, real stories of courage, real stories of hope that show faith in action. Jesus tells us In Matthew chapter 25, he says, Whatever you did for one of these, least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. So each episode we meet people who are answering that call in powerful, practical ways, and we discover how you and I can do the same. Today's theme is called to unify. In St. Paul's second letter to the Corinthians 5, 18, St. Paul tells us he says all this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. We know that God is a God of unity, and through Christ we are reconciled to Him. Through him, we're given the responsibility to reconcile with one another. But we know that reconciliation isn't just about forgiving individuals. It's about healing. Healing individuals, about healing relationships. In fact, it's about healing whole communities and even entire nations. And that's what today's conversation is about. How do we bring people together after deep division? How do we help people move from pain to peace? So today we're joined by Dave Arnold. He's a Pastor and a business leader whose life was transformed by his pastor Rick Warren's vision for global peace. Dave served as a pastor and director of Strategic initiatives at Saddleback Church, one of the largest churches in the world and maybe the largest church in the United States of America. We'll talk about that. His heart was captured by the Peace Plan, which is a global movement that empowers local churches to tackle the world's five biggest problems. Poverty, disease, illiteracy, spiritual emptiness, and corrupt leadership. Dave has helped lead this work through the Peace Plan, Purpose Driven Ministries, Saddleback Church and Pastor Rick's Daily Hope. He's served as executive pastor of Operations, the coo, and most recently as Director of Strategic Relationships for the Peace Plan. So, Dave, I'm glad you're here. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Dave Arnold]

Thank you so much. I'm so honored.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Well, that was a long intro, but I just, I was like, oh my gosh, this man is incredible. You have done so much. I think you fill me in. I'm going to ask a little bit about your own journey, but I think you spent more than 25 years in the business world before moving into full time ministry and eventually into your role as Saddleback. So could you just give us a little bit of your background? Just where, where are you coming from? How'd you get to where you are right now?

[Dave Arnold]

That's great. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm a very interesting anomaly in the ministry world because I started out head down in manufacturing of medical devices. I was part of a very large American medical company. That was my career and I was in love with what I did. It was no turning back. That's. That was. Turned my clock and made me excited and I did very well in it. We started a company which we took public, which gave me some resources and that was very valuable, tremendous experience and I think I built a pretty good reputation in the business. Did that for 25 years and literally was sitting in church just like any other Saturday night or Sunday morning in church because our church had Saturday night as well, Sunday morning. And our pastor, Rick Warren, who by the way, at this point in time, this is 20 plus years ago, had one church, single location. Wasn't any of the global ministries any of the things I like to tell people. I knew Rick Warren before he was Rick Warren.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Right.

[Dave Arnold]

But he had this vision for the world and he talked about exactly what you just described. That was his plan where we could do that. And I sat there spellbound. And when the service was over, my wife looked at Me. And I looked at her and I said, well, who do you think does that? And she said, you should do that. And literally, I wrote him a letter. And I said, here's my resume, which I'm only sending you so you don't think I'm crazy, but I can do this for free and I would like to come and help you. And it sounds like you need some help. You're going to set these things up. I'm pretty good at these things. I've got a little track record of being able to set things up. And shortly thereafter, I walked in the board of directors and resigned my job and never went back.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Wow. So here you are this weekend. You're in, as you said, an ordinary service. Now, of course, Rick Warren, who is famous for many, many Christians throughout the entire country, maybe the world, for the purpose driven life and many other things, obviously. But what was it about that message that, like, captured your heart? Was it just like him spelling out the need? Or was it. Was it about him spelling out, like, oh, here's what you can do? Or what was it that grabbed you.

[Dave Arnold]

The one you just said, here's what you could do? I had grown up with missionaries in my world, and they'd come for a couple, like a Sunday service, tell you what they did, we'd write them a check, and we'd maybe see them next year. And I thought missionaries were professionals. I'll never be a missionary there, be a missionary. So that was my worldview. My view of my role was to write checks. And I got to the point where I love writing checks. I love supporting ministries. It's the reason I liked making money. However, he talked about the layperson, he was going to turn the audience into an army. He was going to turn us into. It was going to be done by lay people. So we're going to plant churches, equip servant leaders, assist the poor, care for the sick, educate the next generation, and we were going to do it. And that grabbed me as a big, hairy, audacious goal. I mean, this was. And I'm a guy that likes big goals, and it just captured me. We're going to put church in a box, hospital in a box, school in a box, and we're going to do this stuff through the church. The busted, the paradigm I had and made me feel like I could do it, but should do it.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Yeah. Was that like a moment where you would say, this is like this podcast is called, called? Right? Was that a moment? You're like, okay, this is. The Lord is calling me to this, like, he was saying, not just like, oh, that's an option. But, no, this is what I'm being asked to do by God.

[Dave Arnold]

I sleep like a baby. It was the first sleepless night I ever had that I can remember where I tossed and turned after that message and said, wow, I have to do something about this. I've had two moments that I would describe by you. One is called the first one was that moment. The second one was probably two years later when I decided to go to seminary. And it just solidified that I am doing what God wants me to do, regardless of what the world thinks I should do, what my resume says I should do, and where my friends and family are going. What happened to you? But I will tell you, my wife is most supportive human being in the world.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

We just sounds like she was pretty critical.

[Dave Arnold]

She has gone with this. She's gone on. I call them both rides. Because running a public company is not exactly something that your wife embraces because you're home about 14 hours a week on a good week, and you're present about two of those hours when you're home. So my wife has had. And being a pastor's wife didn't get any better. Particularly, I was gone. We were traveling the world and back and forth to Rwanda quite a bit. So I was gone a lot.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

But. But. But she was the one who had said something about, like, you're gonna. This is what you're gonna do. Right? I mean, she was.

[Dave Arnold]

By the way, to anybody who's listening, the Holy Spirit speaks very often through other people and very, very often to your wife from your wife. Both, be careful or be bold. And they both come. But. But listen, the still small voice could be Katie sitting next to me saying, you should do that. I could go into a lot of detail during that moment in time. I'm running a company. I got people. I've got lots of things going on. I had investors. I had, you know, the conversation with the board didn't go well.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Really? That was tough. Well, they.

[Dave Arnold]

They said. The truth is, they said, okay, Dave, this is a midlife crisis. We've all had them do what we all do. Get a sports car, get a girlfriend. I mean, that was the. That was the cure. And then they even went so far to say, this will. You'll get out of this, out of your system in a few weeks. So we'll leave you on the payroll. We're not even. We just take a. Whatever you want to call it, just, we'll see you. Because this ain't going to last. This is bad pizza. This is. They didn't understand calling. That wasn't boardroom conversation. I had to be honest with you.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Wow. But wow. So they wanted to hang on to you for a while, which is kind of nice. That's kind of. Kind of them, I guess.

[Dave Arnold]

Well, this is the truth. I never walked back in that building again. Wow.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Wow.

[Dave Arnold]

God. God didn't want me to do that anymore. And I had a road to Damascus experience, leaving corporate world and going to the church world.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

So Pastor Rick, he gets your resume, this letter, and so you have this experience right, too, when working in the church. Like, someone can come up and say, hey, I've got an idea. I think what you've preached on the last weekend, I think that's me. And then it can be like, okay, how did, how did he respond to your. Hey, I think what you preached on last weekend is me. I got to be. I have to move from audience to army, and here I am.

[Dave Arnold]

Well, the conversation was pretty interesting because the church in a box, school in a box, hospital box, up on the stage, they were empty. And so he had to admit that it was a peace plan, which was more like a peace concept. It wasn't really a plan yet, but we had no money, we had no staff, but he still had this vision. So literally we turned around and hired one person to run that. And I became at that because I was an employee, I was a full time volunteer, and so I literally came alongside and we started it from scratch. But to answer your question, a lot of people feel that, and I think in a good way, we had a policy at Saddleback to say you're it. So if somebody walked in and said, we want to start a ministry for alcoholism because I'm an alcoholic and I'm recovering now, Rick would say, you're it. That story, by the way, is a guy named John Baker who formed something called Celebrate Recovery, which has helped over a million people. But that was a tag, you're it story from Rick Ward. Yeah.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

That's incredible. So how long were you an unpaid or a, you know, volunteer employee?

[Dave Arnold]

So I went two years, just paid everything, paid my own way. And. And at that point in time, I was asked to come on staff, which was. Which was. Made me a employee or a staff member.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

And then the next year you went to seminary.

[Dave Arnold]

Yeah, and that's because when I got to staff, they had this odd MBA guy that nobody understood. And the conversations always went like they were a little. And I did become a little defensive. They Went like, well, you wouldn't understand because we're pastors and we're ministers and you're an MBA and a business guy. And the term business guy was not used in a positive.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

It was a compliment.

[Dave Arnold]

All you think about is money, you know, that kind of thing. And so I said, I'll tell you what, you go to B school and I'll go to seminary, and I'll meet you on the other side and we're gonna be best friends. Nobody took me up on business school, but I did finish seminary, became a pastor. And the only irony, I will tell you, I did go to a seminary called Rockbridge Seminary, which is an online seminary, because that worked for me, being full time plus employee full time plus doing what I was doing, traveling constantly. At that point, I was never home. But the irony is, when you're an MBA and you graduate from seminary, the next thing they do is invite you to be on the board of directors of the seminary. So I was on the board of directors for 10 years of the seminary, got them accredited and did a whole bunch of other things financially with them. So fun stories that God just decided not to make my MBA just sit on a shelf or 25 years of business experience be wasted and worthless. I did all the contracting for the church. I did all the negotiation for properties and expansion because we ended up with 19 locations in five different countries, a worldwide ministry, a radio program, Daily Hope you mentioned. And we started all of that. And so some of that experience, really, God doesn't waste a drop of you. He may not use it all every single day, but it was a. It was a fun ride.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Well, yeah, it seems like all of these things contributed to your ability to serve in this completely unique way and start this really massive project, the peace plan. It's almost. I have this image again and again of like the Slumdog Millionaire movie where like all these things of his past contribute to his ability to serve in this, you know, to answer the questions for him. But for you to be able to take this church in Southern California and expand it in its ministries to make a global impact.

[Dave Arnold]

Well, you make it sound like it was one person, but it was. Rick is a visionary. I'm an operations guy, so putting the nuts and bolts together is something I love and enjoy. But we were able to build a pretty big team and a pretty good team to get it done. And especially the. God just blessed us in what we did, and especially in Rwanda.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

You know, I imagine there might be some people who don't know about the Rwandan genocide, or if they do, they don't know the actual details about that. Would you mind sharing a little bit to kind of some people who are listening know exactly what you're talking about when you talk about the work you did in Rwanda.

[Dave Arnold]

So first of all, and I don't like to be real critical of people, but a lot of people refer to Africa as a country or as a place. But Africa's got over 50 different countries speaking many, many different languages. But Rwanda is a little country that doesn't get a lot of attention. It sits completely land bound, surrounded by other countries. It's one of the smallest geographic countries, but also one of the most densely populated. So those 10 million people live on a very dense area in this completely land bound country, piece of property in Africa. If it hadn't been for a movie called Hotel Rwanda, most people wouldn't even know what went on down there. It wasn't on the front page news of any US newspaper. But in the early 90s, Rwanda had a very interesting thing happen. A genocide where they pitted Hutus and Tutsis, two groups which could be considered tribes, against each other. And a civil war broke out. And during that hundred days, over 800,000 people, almost one out of ten people were murdered. As guns, partially, but machetes and weapons mostly because bullets were running out, but you could use a machete. Multiple horrible atrocity, very little publicity. There were three kinds of people left after the genocide. Those who participated in it, guilty of crimes, guilt for that. Those who it was done to them. You killed my mother, my sister, my wife, my son, my daughter. A third one was people who watched it. They were traumatized. So anger, hatred, trauma. And it left over a million kids without any parents. Between, between AIDS and the genocide, there was a million orphans in a country that has 10 million people, a nothing, tiny little country devastated. And 100% of the people affected by it.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Yeah, I mean, so I, I did watch Hotel Rwanda, which is maybe the first time, like you said, that I even knew this. And I remember thinking, wa. What they're wearing and the things they're taught is modern. This didn't happen 100 years ago. This didn't happen, you know, in ancient history. This happened the year after I graduated high school in 1994. Right. And then there's a woman, maybe you know her Immaculate Ilibagiza. So, Immaculate Illibagiza, she wrote a book called Left to Tell, which was her own personal story of being in Rwanda. She was a college age person. So we're about the same age home on Easter break. And when this broke out and the, one of the, the things you, you had just highlighted, Dave, the, that a lot of the, the weapons were like tools, right? They were, it was your machete or your, your farming implement, your gardening implement, that kind of situation. But she had highlighted this fact that it was neighbors, like neighbors killing neighbors with their bare hands essentially, or you know, with, with the tools they had at their disposal. She said that the people who actually murdered her family are people she knew. They weren't strangers and they're people that they had been over to their home and for dinner before. And so when you're describing those three groups of people, those who lost, those who watched and those who participated in it, they all, many, correct me if I'm wrong, many of them knew each other prior to all of this. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're living next to each other again. Is that, is that accurate or is that kind of.

[Dave Arnold]

That is, it's mind boggling, but 100% accurate. These were neighbors, these were, these were people your kids went to school with, that they were the local pastors, they were the local. There was horrific. Nobody was untouched.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Wow, that is. So you come into this. So the genocide ends at after 100 days. How did the peace plan come into Rwanda, into this country? And so what you guys did, a.

[Dave Arnold]

Gentleman named Paul Kagame was one of the liberators of Rwanda after the genocide. Came in and settled it down militarily mostly. He was then elected as the president of Rwanda and still is the president of Rwanda today. He keeps getting reelected. And Paul Kagame had a vision for peace, although he had a mess down there of I don't think unprecedented and never repeated unprecedented place. Paul really went out to try and get the world to help him. He tried to get support financially through world banks and so forth. And he really was a very positive force in there and winning these elections by large, large support within his country. He read Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book and he called Rick and said, I would like you to help me make us a purpose driven country. And Rick felt the invitation by a leader and said, you know what? I believe that this can be done on what we call a three legged stool. Government, business and the church. It's going to take all three of those. No one of them can do it. They all have a role and they all work together. It's a three legged stool. No two of them can hold the stool up. It will fall over. We have to work together but he had government now and he knew he could probably figure some other things out. So on an invitation, Rick went to Rwanda. We went down there and just took a look at it, going, what could we do? And we had the peace model. So the idea of taking the peace model to a country and trying to make an entire country work was big goal, but it was our model. It was going to be the model. We took the worst case scenario. And if we can fix that, we can do something with the rest of the world.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Well, that which makes sense. I mean, I was. Even as you're describing this, and I was thinking, okay, we've had a civil war in the United States of America, and yet those people who faced each other in a civil war, they went back to their home. I mean, if you survived, you went back to your home like you didn't live next door to the people who you fought moments before this or months before this. How. Okay, so the president invites Rick and yourself. Let's do this. In Rwanda. Where do you start? Wait, just. I mean, especially this is the daunting call that so many of us experiences. It's okay, like you're. Personally, I wanted to do something. Where do I start? Where did you all start?

[Dave Arnold]

So the government did two things that I think were amazing. The first thing they did is you can't tell a Hutu from a Tutsi. But what they did was on your papers, your passport, your papers, it said Hutu, Tutsi. Now, no one cared. So maybe if my daughter decided she was more my dad or more my mom, I'm a. Well, she might have picked the wrong one that day because my next door neighbor. You killed the opposite. So the first thing was, it was different than the civil war in that there was north and south. You lived over here, you lived over here. Pretty clear, right? But I live next door or I'm married too, or my brother in law is. It wasn't defined. So the first thing the government did was take that off the language. There are no Hutus. And on Tutsis were all Rwandan. Hard to do, but brilliant. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. We're not even going to use those terms anymore. The other thing was they prosecuted. And the way they prosecuted was they arrested the people who had murdered and they put them, when they were out on the streets, they put them in these orange jumpsuits of shame to try and basically do that. And they did an awful lot of apologies. They really did work towards contrition and so forth. But we had another chore because Rick's convening power. Now that he had a relationship with the government. His real convening power is with the church. The pastors respect Rick's leadership and his convening power. So we decided we would collect all the pastors and churches together, which also had some apologies to do because a lot of the people fled to a church and were slaughtered in a church, and some of them were even sold out by their pastor, who was one of those two. So there was an awful lot of damage done. So I made a bad assumption that when you go to a small country, everybody knows each other. So all the Baptists know who the Catholic leaders are, and they know who the Anglican leaders are and the Presbyterian leaders are. They don't. They didn't know anybody. So we got 40 different denominations because we went to each and every one of them and brought them together. We paid for everything, sponsored this event for them to come together and meet each other. And the best thing ever happened was two things you found out. Number one, they all liked each other. I like the guy. I like my Catholic brother, I like my Anglican brother. And number two is we agree on a lot of stuff. You know, you wear a collar. I don't. But we agree on an awful lot of stuff. Because there was so much we agreed on. We agreed the church had to step up. We agreed apology had to happen. We agreed we had to work together. And those guys to this day are best friends.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Wow. So. So one thing I heard you say that, that the. We're going to eliminate the Hutu Tutsi distinction, which has its roots. I mean, I don't know, it has its roots in, in the gospel. It has its roots in, in like, you know, along a Jew or Greek, gentile, male or female, slave or free. But here there's a common identity. So this shared identity is Rwandan. But you also mentioned that there was prosecution. So it wasn't simply a matter of we're going to just move past this and not deal with it. So justice, it sounds like justice is a big part of this peace plan.

[Dave Arnold]

Yes, justice was a big part of the political side of it. The government was prosecuting. The peace plan was more convening government, business and churches to work on the go forward plans. But no, they. The government took the idea of getting Hututsi off the table and getting prosecution. So we were going after the people who committed crimes. We weren't dusting it under the table, but we were also asking for forgiveness for the people who had been traumatized and harmed. And that to me was probably where God showed up in a big way. Because under your own power, you cannot do that. You cannot not resent, you can forgive and not forget. And so they had to, they knew someone had to absorb the pain. In any, in any situation where there's an offense, one of you has to absorb the pain. So they were able to work through that and see a brighter future and a future where we've corrected the underlying things that would have this happen again, but we would make a go forward plan, working together to be a better country.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Wow. So I want to come back to the mention, Nick. Someone has to absorb it, right? At some point, forgiveness has to happen. But there's another piece too where you mentioned the orange jumpsuits. What did that do in the. By way of healing? Or what did that do by way of, you know, I just keep coming back to this place of, you know, if I'm. Here's my, my own kind of distinction between guilt and, and shame, which I think there's a lot of different definitions or distinctions that are very helpful. One though, I think is guilt is when I know that I violated some objective standard. So I know I shouldn't lie, but I've lied. Shame is when I know that, you know, that I violated this objective standard. Like I, I know, you know, that I've done this thing that I'd rather, you know, not know. And so it seems like to some degree the jumpsuit thing is not only punishment, but also is, is kind of this, is this forced, I guess, accountability is, is that, I mean, what did it do? What did, what did that jumpsuit thing do by way of moving things forward towards justice and healing?

[Dave Arnold]

I, I think it was the accountability. In other words, I can feel guilt and I can feel shame and you can be angry with me, but you're gonna, but I'm gonna own my mistake, my, my crime, my, my sin. And I'm gonna move forward with it. And, and I think that's what you're doing is, is I'm expressing contrition by wearing this and telling you I did it. I'm standing up and saying I did it. I'm not hiding. I'm not, you know, it's not my hidden sin. It's my public sin now. And I'm, and I'm. And I'm gonna come out forward with it, which actually goes a long way to healing. It's a very long way to healing as a country and just as an individual, when you own your mistakes, God forgives me, but I need you to. And you may never be able to get. We may never have the relationship restored, but what, we've at least started that point. So you're not waking up every day angry at me either. Because you have to release that as well. It's a two way street. You have to release your anger so you can move forward. You know, they say people that stay angry are drinking poison, hoping the other person dies.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Right.

[Dave Arnold]

It's the worst thing in the world to live with. So you ha. They had to, they had to work on both of those.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Yeah, yeah. Because I can imagine how, you know, they're in, in some gang world where the fact that you've murdered someone is a tattoo that you wear as like a mark of pride, like that sense of like, yeah, this, don't mess with me, I've done this thing. But the culture in Rwanda was the opposite. It was this. No, this sense of this is I'm guilty of this thing. And again, taking accountability for this so that you have again, it seems like it'd be a way forward. Not a scarlet letter necessarily.

[Dave Arnold]

It was a way forward.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Yeah, way forward.

[Dave Arnold]

It was very cathartic for both parties to own it and move forward through it.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

So when it came to that, the role of the church in forgiveness, what was the teaching? How did you, how do you get, you know, 10 million people or 9 million people to forgive from their heart, which. The worst thing that ever happened to them by the person who's living next to them. Right.

[Dave Arnold]

So the church had to own that too. So a lot of pastors had to stand up in front of their communities and say, I let you down and I'm not going to do it again. And here's why. And a lot of them started some of the principles of the Purpose Driven Church, which is, you know, any standard church, we've got community, we've got worship, we've got fellowship, we've got discipleship, and now we got missions. So they started the people back on the foundations of the church and the format of the church again. Get people back into the church, people back into community. Because community was scary, you know, now community had to be something you rebuilt. But let's get them back in community, let's get them back in the word, let's get them back. And having the pastors lead them again and lead them in a stronger biblical way instead of in a political or.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Fearful human way, I can't imagine offering someone who has hurt me or the people I love to this degree. I can't imagine offering them forgiveness. Unless I've encountered Jesus. Like, I just. I wouldn't do it unless I encountered Jesus. And so was there a revival that happened in Rwanda through the peace plan, or. Or was there something different? The combination of things.

[Dave Arnold]

Well, you said it right. You couldn't do it on your own. There's no human power that would allow me to forgive a person for doing that at all. It was the power of God with the collective work of churches, plural, 40 denominations coming together. We did, by the way, we translated the Purpose Driven Life into Kinney Rwandan and gave a free copy across the board, including. We printed it in the newspaper. So they did 40 days of purpose, 40 days of the book as a country, so anyone could participate. So there's a lot of these unifying things we were trying to do to get them to do it together, to come back together and get the focus on that. After we were finished looking back, we literally moved over a million people above the poverty line financially because of the businesses and things that were developed through the peace plans. Some of the financial models we did, some of the savings programs, some of the other things we did. We improved their health care through basic, simple healthcare training. You think we didn't have to build a hospital. We just had to teach people how to wash their hands, boil water, get fresh water. We dug wells that gave them water so that they could. You know, a lot of people don't think America. I got hot and cold water. It runs perfectly, and you expect it to be fine. Just flip the switch, the lights come on. They don't have that there. They walk for half an hour, carry five gallons of water, which, by the way, eight pounds per gallon is 40 pounds of water, carrying it back from there in a jug before they get the kids off to school. And by getting them some wells, getting them some basic, simple things, we were able to move the quality of the health care, quality of the education, because now the kids can go to school. And you just keep going through all of these various little steps, little steps, little steps, little steps. And eventually the country is actually. Rwanda today is the envy of all of Africa, economically and socially and spiritually. The envy of all of Africa, really. No question about it.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Well, that's what it sounds like. So there is a principle of Catholic social teaching called subsidiarity, and subsidiarity is that if the problem can be solved at the most local level, it should be solved at the most local level. It sounds like. I mean, in an analogous way, washing your hands is the most local way to prevent the Spread of disease and sickness kind of thing. But it sounds like you came in to address the people who were living in Rwanda, working in Rwanda, and saying, okay, if you do these things, like, not we're going to come in and rescue you, but if we do these things, your lives will turn around. And when people embrace them, their lives turned around.

[Dave Arnold]

Yeah, you're absolutely right about the local level, and that's missed by a lot of people. It's a core principle that without it, I don't think you could do anything. We believe that all the work has to be done locally. The answer to almost all prayers is a person I need help with, and here's somebody who will do it. And so we didn't want to. Rick Warren had studied acts in a great way. The principles of ministry and mission were covered. Never bring a purse. We didn't go down there with millions of dollars and say, hey, what do you want? You know, we went down there with simple skills, by the way, people who know nothing about agriculture, who could show them how to do certain things, because it's easy to see one do one, teach one, right? Very simple things. These people weren't. They didn't understand why having the cow that close to the back of the house was a problem for the sanitation in the house. And so moving the toilet, the latrine, 50ft back. Simple. I mean, none of this was complicated. So it allowed laymen to do it. But you're 100% right. It had to be done at the local level. So one of the things that we did was we always asked questions, what do you need? And we wanted to have the local pastor be the hero. Not so Saddleback Church came down here, and we never want to wear a saddleback shirt. We wanted to put the pastor on the corner on the pedestal. Now, he knows some people that came and helped him, but now he's the hero because he's going to be there marrying and burying and counseling long after I go home. So we really wanted to leave him with the tools, and the well was put on his property. So he was the. He was. Somebody else put the well there, but.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

It was his well.

[Dave Arnold]

And you come to our church for the well and for the water, and you see the hand of God being this pastor on your corner doing those things, not the foreigners coming. I'll tell you a real interesting story. The US Government simultaneously was trying to help out Rwanda. And one of the things they wanted to give them was mosquito nets, you know, so you could put it over your bed and sleep in It. And they came to us and said, hey, you guys have a deep relationship with them. Would you distribute the mosquito nets for us? And we said, we're not sure. Let me ask. So we went down to that group of pastors who'd become our conduit to what we needed in the area. And we said, do you want mosquito nets? And they go, why? They said, well, the U.S. government has a lot of money and wants to give you mosquito nets. They said, dave, do you sleep under a mosquito net? And I go, no. He goes, why not? I said, I don't have mosquitoes. Not malaria bearing mosquitoes. And he says, why not? I said, well, we years ago, we sprayed some DDT and we don't have any standing water. And we, we don't have them. They go, well, why can't we do that? Well, we can. Well, then why do you have to give me a mosquito net? Because we're going to use fishing nets or wedding veils or curtains. We've never used a mosquito net for what a mosquito net was intended to be used forever.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Yeah.

[Dave Arnold]

Most profound conversation you could ever have. And we're going to go shove mosquito nets at you and it's going to make us feel good. And they said, no. Going to teach our people to do the right thing. Spray, get rid of the mosquitoes and get rid of the standing water. And they solved the problem local level, not from Washington, dc, Not from Lake Forest, California, from the local level. But they needed that conversation. They needed a little help. And could you give us some of this and some of that? Not a lot of money, not a lot of expertise. No, it's great.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

One of the things earlier I mentioned that this podcast is sponsored by the Catholic Initiative. So the Catholic Initiative is one of the Pulte family charitable foundations. They have a legacy of hope projects. So its founder, William Pulte, when it came to the Pulte Family foundation, he wanted world peace to be a focus of his philanthropic vision. And so what he did was he, with leaders from eight different faith traditions, he co authored this World Peace prayer. And it says that it has a little snippet. One sentence says this. It says, it's a prayer saying, God help me and all the people of the world to learn how to replace hate, war, oppression and division with love, peace, freedom and reconciliation. And then to have that sense of. Then the prayer ends with, and I commit myself to this sacred task throughout my life. And so that sense of being able to say, I'm gonna replace all the things we normally experience right all the broken things we normally experience with the things that can only come from Jesus, they can only come through God's grace. And then having that sense of okay, and I commit myself to, to this, this sacred task throughout the course of my life. It sounds like that's what you've done. I mean, it sounds like you have this spark of encountering Jesus. At one point in your life you're invited into the church, but not to like abide in the church. You're invited into the church to, to go out from the church. And have you ever. I mean, I'm sure you have, but a lot of people, like, you know, yeah, I'm called to do church work. And so, yeah, I go to work in church and when people come, I help them learn how to pray. I help them with their problems. Help them. Your church work has been, I'm going to face the world with the face of Jesus. Is that accurate or am I just.

[Dave Arnold]

Well, you said a bunch of things. But first of all, I want to tell you that the Pulte Foundation's goals line up directly with what we did with. Probably he didn't want to plant churches per se, but our original P and piece was promote reconciliation by planting churches. So reconciliation a critical part of it. So we totally align in all of those. What we believe is this local and global peace, local and global missions. You absolutely need the local church. And person walks in local church, they need everything you just described. They need prayer, they need care, they need relationships and so forth. But this was the difference between are you going to be working a church and be the keeper of the aquarium or the fisher of men? Rick's idea was it's not a church's seating capacity, it was a church's sending capacity. So it's both. And so the price of admission of being a member of a church is also being on mission. Now, mission could be your next door neighbor. It could be a person you're driving down the street and needs help with their car. That's local missions. And some people like myself have more called for global missions. And some people would tell me, well, I'm not going to go to Africa till we save everybody, you know, in America. And I'm fine with that, you know, But Jesus did not come to save America, came to save Americans, but not America. He came to save Africans and he came to save all of us. But the Bible does say in Revelations in two places that there will be every tribe and every nation represented. So either they have to be from a local, meaning Rwanda, to Uganda, which by the way, is. The way this spreads is Rwanda now helps Uganda and, and I help my neighbor. So both things happen at the same time. So that at the end we all have an opportunity to hear the word.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

What are the elements that you would say, okay, this is how it worked in Rwanda, where the president's on board and the president says we need to get the government, the business and the church united. And then you came in with, with the peace plan somewhere else. What. Where would they start if. Can it be done somewhere else? Yeah. Where do you begin?

[Dave Arnold]

So the good news is we had, after Rwanda, we had what we call a very, very successful model. And we created something called the All Africa Initiative, where we set out to do it in all the countries of Africa. And after that, actually in 2020, we launched something called the All Latin America Initiative, where we started in Costa Rica and, and demonstrated the principles in Costa Rica to spread it into all of Latin America. So the model starts with one hypercritical thing, what we call the man of peace. And the man of peace, again comes straight out of the Bible. Go into the town, find a person who's going to listen to you and work with that person. And if you don't find the man of peace, dust off your shoes and keep moving. So our first thing was to find a man of peace. And in Rwanda, it was Paul Kagame, we call a man of peace. It could be a woman. A lot of countries are led by very powerful leadership. So the Bible just needs that one person who's got a listening ear and a kind heart and has a reputation and can start things going. And we were very, very successful across Africa and now it's starting to take place in Latin America. We had a little setback called Covid, but we had already launched it before COVID and the people that we launched it with kept going all through Covid. We didn't. We couldn't go back and forth, but the seeds were planted. So it's actually had some remarkable roots there. But great question, but it can be done anywhere.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

And so the first step there is that finding someone who's open to this. And that goes back to the subsidiarity, right. That, that sense of the local person.

[Dave Arnold]

It'S a core, it's a. It's almost. There's no way around that. In fact, the Bible says if you don't find that, just keep going. You found hard soil.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Well, and also it makes sense because if you don't have that local person who is open, who is, who's in not just open to open to receive, but also open to be available to help. Is it becomes another malaria tent or net kind of a situation where it's, okay, so we found a person. Now here's what we're going to do for you. Here's what we're going to give to you as opposed to the local person who's able to say, here's what we need. And so my guess is that first step is pretty clear, but. But the step after that's gotta be pretty dynamic maybe, or kind of once.

[Dave Arnold]

You open that up, but finding that person's the beginning of everything. And then you start the principles, bringing church, government, business together, getting the conversations going, asking those questions, what do you need? Because that's the question just so few people ask, what do you need? And even your neighbor, you know, what do you need? I got a pie. Maybe he doesn't want a pie. Just what do you need? Because sometimes it's not what you think it is, and sometimes it's not as hard to do as you think it is. When you're in developing countries, they have so little. We found that they needed soccer balls because they were playing with, like a wad of something. We have soccer balls so they could play, you know, play games and do things like that. So the best thing you can do is go down there with the two ears and an open heart and open mind and Listen.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

I have two last questions for you. This, I imagine the last 30 years now, give or take, you've been part of something really transformative. Are there parts of you that you'd say, oh, I am very different because I have been doing this ministry for so long.

[Dave Arnold]

You know, I asked that question two ways. I believe it completely to be true, that my heart's been softened, my worldview's been widened. But I hear my wife say she likes me better. And I think the person I've become is just, I'm deeper in the word. I believe the Bible has been proven over and over again to be correct in all these principles and all of the things that we talked about, they are straight out of the Bible. In fact, when man tries to interpret by going, so relief should look like this. We'll do this. We'll give them malaria nets then. It's not the Bible's way. The Bible and Jesus always went and found the exact need the person had. The woman at the well needed water. She didn't know what else she needed, but he started with her need. I feel incredibly blessed that I had a front Row seat. To see some incredible things that God clearly did, we could not have done without miracle after miracle after miracle. But we were doing his work. Ricky's talking about, don't try and make a wave to surf. Surf the wave God made. So we did surf a wave he made. He made it. He created an opportunity in Rwanda by a disaster. And so I feel like I was able to see something and see God's work in that, because we know God wants unity, that we're in his will when we work towards unity. And I've learned that. Let's skip them. Let's skip them all. Let's get right to the ones we totally agree on. And that in itself is probably what's been a change in me, in my approach to almost everything I do in this world. Every day when I walk out of the house, I think I look at the world through those eyes and through the eyes of a need that a person may have, that I may be the one in their blast zone to help them. And sometimes it's silly. My wife came home the other day. She'd been in a grocery store. A woman came up to her and said, I can't pay for my groceries. Would you mind? And my wife said, of course I would. She came home and told me that story, and she said, I knew you wouldn't mind, because those are the hands right there that get to do that. I look for those opportunities. I live for those opportunities. I wouldn't have said that 20 years ago.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

Well, that's a big thing of one of our missionaries on campus here. She mentioned that our students, the more and more they serve, the more and more they reach out, the more and more they give of themselves, they become more and more converted. Like, they become more and more like Jesus. The more they live like Jesus, essentially, you know, and for you to be able to say that. Yeah, that's. That's a part of your story as well, is just really powerful. One of the things. One of the great lessons that we've. I've. That I've learned and been. It's been solidified in my. In me, since we started this podcast is one of the greatest spiritual gifts a person could have is availability. That. That sense of, okay, God, I'm. I'm willing to be used in whatever way you want me to. And then this other thing you just said, which is when I meet people, what I want to start doing is if you have started doing this, I want to find a common place. Yeah, there's division. But when we start with okay, what do we have in common? Like, what do we have that. That unites us? What have. What do we have that makes us similar, more than difference? That is. That's a better place to start, seems like.

[Dave Arnold]

Absolutely. You couldn't have said it better.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

What would you say to someone, Someone who's listening to this and they want to live out God's call for their life, but they just don't know where to start. What's that thing that you say? Okay, just do this. Start here.

[Dave Arnold]

Well, I'm going to start with love God. I mean, love God. Just if your core is love God, some of the other stuff will fall in place. Love people. Love his sons and daughters. He created them. They're his children. You gotta love them. So love God, love people, period. I would say that starts the whole thing. Then I would say start to look at the world through this set of eyes. I could be the help that God needs me to do something today. I could be that person and maybe when it feels a little uncomfortable, step a little further into it. Maybe you can be the one that could do that. And you could be the opportunity to love on one of God's children today. And if we all just did one more of those a day, you know, we would move it forward. And you said it so well. You don't do it for that reason. But the rewards. There are rewards in heaven, no question about it. But to feel like you really, your life was bigger than yourself today, if you stepped out of that bubble, and you actually may have been the hands that God needed in that situation today on a very simple act, helping somebody at the grocery store, helping somebody, you know, loading a baby stroller, somebody who has too many things in their hands at a door. I'm not talking about the big stuff. I'm talking about a lot of little things. But do it out of love. Love God, love people.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

And tag, you're it, right? Do you see it?

[Dave Arnold]

We're in it.

[Father Mike Schmitz]

You do it. I'm so grateful. Dave Arnold, thank you so much for joining us. I just. I've been moved by your work, and I've been just inspired in so many ways. And I'm so grateful for you taking the time in your life to be able to just talk with us, hopefully. My prayer, of course, is that people listen to your story, that they're like, okay, I can also be inspired to move. And so thank you so much. And I want to thank everyone here for listening to Call. This podcast is made possible by the Catholic initiative, whose inspiring, bold faith in action. It invests in vibrant but under resourced Catholic communities and re revitalizes iconic parishes and schools and communities. And if you want to learn more about their projects at the Catholic Initiative, you can discover how you can actually be part of it. Visit the catholicinitiative.org so thecatholicinitiative.org Remember, the gospel is more than words. It's a way of life. And remember, it's Jesus reminds us in Matthew 25 when we serve the least of these, we serve Him. So till next time, let's keep listening to God's call, and let's also have the courage to answer it. God bless.