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Calm Parenting Podcast
A Different Way to Discipline Pure Defiance (Best Podcast of 2025) #487
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Kirk Martin
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One day, an annual membership with Function Health includes two sets of tests for for only $499 per year, but our listeners get a $100 credit at functionhealth.com calm the $100 credit is only for the first thousand listeners, so sign up right now@functionhealth.com calm that's functionhealth.com calm so when our strong willed son Casey was about 10, I walked into his room one Friday evening and said hey Case, remember you need to rake the leaves tonight. And his response was of course. Father, I wasn't having a good time texting my friends or playing video games. I was hoping you would give me additional chores so I can learn the value of hard work and responsibility. Sir. Yeah, that's not what he said. Some of you are lucky you may have a more compliant child, or you have perfect family members that have those kids that just comply right away. But here was our son Casey's response. The that particular evening, he didn't even look up at me. He just uttered, I don't have to. Oh, what are you going to do when your child is defiant and outright refuses to do what you ask? Look, I was raised with that authoritarian approach, but as you have discovered, that often causes our kids to go into fight or flight mode. But we don't want to make excuses or raise an entitled child or. Or get walked all over. And you also don't want to be fearful of approaching these situations. So I want to show you a different way to handle this. And that is what we are going to discuss on today's episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. So thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing this with others. This is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm, and you can find us and our big summer sale@celebratecalm.com so I shared this story last year on a podcast, but as I reviewed it, something interesting happened. I got new insights, and it triggered all kinds of emotions from my own childhood. So I hope you'll find some new insights this time in case you've heard this story before. So let's roll through this. So I walk in and I'm like, hey, remember, tonight you've got to rake the leaves in. Casey's response is, I don't have to. I want you to know that in that moment, my initial immediate visceral instinct was to yank the cords out of his Xbox and start yelling about all the sacrifices we've made so he could have a great life. I never had to lecture him about all the things I do every single day that I don't want to do and talk about how bad my childhood was and what my father would have done to me if I had ever spoken to him like that. I wanted to do and say that, and in some ways, I could have felt justified with that reaction. Look, being calm doesn't mean you become some emotionless robot or fake person who's happy and grateful every minute. No, you should feel frustrated and worried and angry and overwhelmed. You just don't react out of those emotions because they always escalate situations. They rarely change the child's behavior, unless you're just using fear to change the outward behavior for a period of time, and you end up ruining your relationship with your child. You become the one out of control, and your child is now in control. So when I control myself and stop Reacting. Besides allowing my wife to finally breathe and not walk on eggshells, it helps me situations more clearly so I can problem solve and so I can think straight. Look, it's what we do at work all the time. Whether you're in business or let's say an ER doctor doesn't start freaking out when a patient is bleeding all over her room. She takes the vitals, assesses the situation and then leads her team to heal the patient to solve the problem. So before I share my response, let me address a few issues. Well, Kirk, if you have raised your son properly when he was young, he wouldn't have defied you like this. You know what? You're wrong. Because apparently you don't have a strong willed child. This is part of the process of pushing, asserting their independence and figuring out where the boundaries are. And what I want you to know as a parent of one of these kids is just because they defy you doesn't mean you did something wrong or you're a bad parent. I'm tired of you getting judged by everybody. They just have to easy compliant kids because they're not capable of handling our kids. So I have no doubt. Look, I have no doubt that you could apply enough fear and intimidation when kids are young so that they never speak up. And you will get really good outward behavior. But you didn't change their heart. You will have just scared them into changing outward behavior. But now you've created a child who will get used by other people or marry a controlling spouse. How many of you did that because they never learned how to speak up. See, if you're in that situation, you need your kids to behave because if they don't, you can't behave and control yourself. I have no interest in repeating my father's generational patterns. And if you use fear and intimidation with these kids, they will store up their anger inside, wait until they are bigger and then it will come out with a vengeance. Sometimes boys will often sabotage themselves just to prove their dad was right. See, you know what? You always thought I was a loser. Guess what? Proud of yourself. Now you don't want that. Now as a society we have swung all the way to the other extreme. So a parent now responds. Oh honey, you've worked so hard this week. I'm sure you wouldn't talk to me like that unless you were dysregulated. Do you want to talk about your feelings? No. That sweet voice is condescending and patronizing and this kid, whether 3 or 13, is going to look at you with disdain. Thinking. Do you really not know? I was just defiant to your face that I am testing you. Well, Kirk, he wouldn't have responded like that unless he was upset or dis. Regulated. That's not true. I just did a podcast on how the underlying root of outward defiance can be anxiety. Listen to that. But in this case, there was nothing deeper that needed to be understood. Our son was simply testing the boundaries. Boundaries. He knew exactly what he was doing in that moment, and there's no shame in that. Kids are supposed to push, and we're supposed to not be pushovers or bullies. So this story has a winding narrative with a lot of ups and downs, mainly downs and a lot of decision points. I wouldn't handle it like this all the time, but I want to give you some additional tools in your parenting toolbox. So in this case, Cayce was exhibiting outright defiance. I don't have to. For some reason that night, I didn't react. I stayed stoic, and I read the moment, and I decided to take a no nonsense, tough approach to this. So I replied, okay, we've now established in our home we don't have to do things for each other. If that's how you want it to work, I'm cool with that. And I walked away, and I went about my night. He walked away a little full of himself, which is natural for kids that age and especially for our strong will kids. And he was thinking, sweet. I just said no to my dad and didn't have to do my chores. So I went to bed with a plan. I knew the next morning, Casey had a hockey game, and he loved hockey. But I got up early the next morning because I knew what was coming. Look, if you're going to handle situations in a tough way where there's going to be conflict, I want you to make sure that you're emotionally ready, because it's hard. Don't do this when you're tired and frustrated. It won't work. So I got up early, I went for a run, I ate a healthy breakfast, and I'm downstairs early reading paper in the paper in the living room, like, word cleaver, ready for it to happen. And I told my wife, hey, at some point, this might be one of those mornings when you want to go have coffee with one of your friends, because it's about to get ugly. But I can handle this. And I'm not sure she believed me. So Casey comes marching down the stairs, because Casey has never walked. He is always marched with a purpose. Hey, dad, we have to go to the rink. I have a game this morning. And I didn't look up from my paper. I just casually responded, well, I don't have to take you. And Casey's response was, fair enough, dad. You got me on that one. I guess I should have raked the leaves, huh? Of course he'd never say that. His response was, seriously. Seriously. You know how they say that? It's dripping with disdain, and inside you're either seething or just admiring the sheer brazenness of your kids. Seriously, dad, all I did was not rake some leaves. And I replied very evenly, not in a snotty tone, I know, but we established last night that as a family, we don't have to do things for each other. And his response was, they're just stupid leaves. Now, why did he call my leaves stupid? Because we'd been so rigid, and he knew we don't use that word in our home, which guarantees that your kids are going to use that word in your home. Your kids know that, and they'll push that button every single time. Now, here's the thing. I knew that in some ways, I. My response was provocative, and I'm against provoking kids to anger, but I was fully in control of myself, and I wanted to use this to teach, not to punish or be snotty or prove my point or be the authority figure who's in charge. You know what's kind of funny? Looking back, but not in the moment, I got a little triggered when he called the leaves stupid. Not because of the word, but inside. I was thinking, I planted the tree that bore those leaves, and you are not going to, so don't take it personally. Now, here's an interesting thought for you to consider, and this will stretch and push you a little bit. My child cannot disrespect me if I do not give him that power to do so. I don't take these things personally. Our son came out of the womb charging like a bull. It would have been weird if he hadn't pushed back. Once I stopped reacting and getting offended all the time, I could channel that energy of his in positive ways. I could soften the edges a bit so there was still enough edge to do amazing things in life without ruining his life or our relationship. So my wife hadn't left yet for some reason. So this was huge. Trigger. I hear him go to the kitchen and say, mom, come on. He's being like this again. And I will tell you, that triggered me almost through the roof. I heard my son refer to me as he. And in a negative Way. As if those two, my wife and son and had been colluding for years behind my back, talking about my penchant for losing it. And now I felt shame and disrespect. And if I can share something from my childhood, this just came up. I remember I referred to my dad once as he. And he ripped into me with both the belt and his words. But the worst part was the look in his eyes. It was pure fury. I was terrified. And now the moment is revisiting me 30 years later. No, that has to have been 50 years later. And I heard my wife say, you need to listen to your father. He loves you and so do I. I'm running late. And she wisely disappeared. So what's his next go to? Well, dad, what if I go out right now and I rake the leaves? Then can we go? No, Casey, that's not how it works. And I remember for the first time really seeing the switch flip in his heart, in his tone, his body posture, in his face. So, so often before I jumped up and reacted and used my size and my voice and. And my authority as the dad to shut this behavior down. I would get even more upset than him and I'd miss this. I was so full of myself. My pride, my anger, my resentment, my ego, my inability to control my own emotions. And he was a mirror for that, that I missed really seeing my son in these moments. But this time, I saw it happen. I saw the look in his eyes. And I have to tell you, as I recall this, there's something in me that wants to cry. There's some sorrow and regret here. Cayce and I are so close now, but when he was a little boy, I would escalate and his little face would get red and his eyes would be aflame and I would be angry. And I think it's because he was reflecting back to me all the feelings I had as a child. And I needed to shut that down. But this time I saw the shame. I saw the anger turned inward. That moment, that realization that he was going to have to tell his coach and he missed the game because of his choices. So I knew what was about to come. This is the shame fueled eruption we talked about in that May 18 episode. So I encourage you to go back and listen to that on massive meltdowns. So here's what came out. This is stupid. You're stupid. Now I'm going to miss my game and let the team down and. And it's all your fault. You've heard that before, haven't you. Now look, there's a war going on inside my head here. Am I letting this kid get away with being disrespectful? What would my father have done? Are we teaching him it's okay to talk to people like this? Shouldn't I nip this in the bud? Am I teaching him to be an entitled kid? All of these conflicting thoughts and guilt and confusion are going to assault you. And in this moment, I had stuff from my childhood coming back to me. Am I replicating what my dad did to me? But for once, I didn't react because I knew he wasn't angry at me. He was angry at himself. He thought he was getting away with not raking the leaves. But now it's dawning on him that he made a big mistake and he's embarrassed. So guess what he does next. Okay, I admit I am one of those hard to shop for dads. So Casey surprised me three years ago with a subscription to AG1 for Father's Day, long before they became an awesome sponsor. He knows I value my health, being active and staying regular. Funny aside, now that he's 32, he does as well. And our entire family starts our day with AG1. Look, it's a quick, easy win. The first thing we put in our bodies is 75 vitamins, probiotics, prebiotics and whole food sourced ingredients. And now with AG1 Next Gen, their upgraded formula has been clinically shown to increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times. This is the perfect time to try AG1 or give it as a Father's Day gift. If you use my link@drinkag1.com calm you'll get a free gift with your first order. So subscribe today at drinkag1.com calm to try the next gen of AG1 for less than $3 per day. That's drinkag1.com calm. How many of you have kids who struggle with impulse control? We do. So we taught Casey practical ways to delay gratification by saving money because it's very tangible. I encourage you to build this new habit with your kids this summer with the Acorns early app and debit card. I'm so glad today's episode is sponsored by Acorns Early. It's a smart money app and debit card for kids that helps them learn the value of money. I like teaching with money because your kids can see how their choices directly add up in concrete ways. It's one of the best habits we've taught Casey. Acorns early makes building this new habit easy and fun. So head to acornserly.com calm or download the Acorns early app to help your kids grow their money skills today. That's acornserly.com calm acorns early card is issued by Community Federal Savings bank member FDIC pursuant to license by MasterCard International. TNCs apply monthly subscription fees starting from $5 per month unless canceled. Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter from electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new release pieces and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wonderyus that's audible.com wonderyus so Casey stomps up the stairs and slams the bedroom door. Why? Because that was another trigger of mine. Usually he knew it would elicit the old I work hard every day to make money to pay for that door. You don't have to respect me, young man, but you will respect my door. And I know he was expecting me to barge in and lecture him. You know what? If you would have simply done what I asked you to do, we could have avoided all this. How are you ever going to be successful in life if you don't listen to people? And this is when it would usually go sideways and I'd put my wife in this awful position of having to be the referee between an upset child and and the husband she married who still acted like a child sometimes. And that was awful of me to do. And I know many of you are in that situation. Does this mean I was sitting there happy and content? No. I was torn up inside. I could feel the resentment toward my son for making life so difficult because he wouldn't do the simple effing things that I asked. I could feel that it made me angry after how patient we were with him and we bent over backwards to make his life great and this is how he responds. I felt like I should go up and set him straight. I mean, that's what you do, right? That's all. Waging a war against this new part of me that was saying this is an opportunity to teach and to bond with the Son you love. It was like having, you know, that thing of like the devil on one shoulder screaming in my ear and the angel whispering into the other. So I'm sitting reading my paper, trying to hold it together. Only I'm not really reading because there's part of me that just wants to go get it over with and be done. Just go yell at him, tell him to get his stuff and take him to the rink and get on with the day. Because conflict is hard. I grew up in a home in which conflict wasn't just words, it was my mom being hit. And I can still to this day hear the horrifying sound of her helpless screams. So I don't like conflict. I could make all of this go away and be the hero if I just took him. And then we could rake the leaves later. And I don't blame you if you do that sometimes. But I chose to sit in my discomfort. So then he comes pouting and stomping down the stairs muttering stupid leaves. I don't know why it's such a big deal. Now my coach is going to be upset. And it was kind of a passive aggressive way to get me to react or give in and take him. And in this moment, it took all my self control not to say in a snotty tone, if you would have just done what I asked you, but that would be selfish because it would feel satisfying to me to say that, but it would drive his anger further down inside. That would have been my own pettiness as a parent, my own passive aggressive way of saying, look at how you've ruined this day. You're making me so uncomfortable. Being mad at me again, the fear. Am I repeating what my dad did to me here? Even though I love this kid so much? Look, you're making me so uncomfortable, I'm going to lash out at you. But that would have perpetuated a hurtful cycle. You've been there before. The hurtful words, the regret, the sleepless nights. So he says, fine, I'll go rake your stupid leaves. Well, that's his final little last gasp, right? A final attempt to bait and trigger me. And again, I had every right to jump off the sofa right then and there and destroy him with my words. But you just have to grow up and be patient. Play the long game. It's not worth the ego satisfaction in the moment. So I didn't say anything. So he goes to the garage, gets the rake, goes out to the backyard, still pouting. And now I look out the window. What's he doing he's not just raking up my leaves. He's raking so hard, he's pulling up my grass. And for some reason, that made me furious. Look, he's messing with my sense of order. He's not doing it the right way. And you're supposed to do everything the right way because. Well, because if I did everything the right way as a kid, then my dad would be nicer to me. And I could go through a day without an upset stomach, wondering when the fury would come. And I could feel my face getting red. I could feel those waves of anger and sadness and confusion and dealing with that stuff from my childhood in the moment, while I'm dealing now with my own child. And I can hear people saying, but you're being too soft. You're letting him get away with things. And my response is, wait. Just wait till the end here. He's not getting away with anything. He's raking the leaves. Well, actually, my yard. And he's missing his game. He's learning where the boundaries are. But I'm not reaming or shaming him. But my primary goal isn't really to teach him a lesson. It's something larger than that. So after a few minutes, when I've calmed down, I grab a rake, I head to the backyard, and I begin raking leaves. The proper way, of course. So I rake up the leaves without saying a word. While he was raking up my dirt, right? So I decided to break the ice. Hey, Case, remember when you were little, we used to rake up the leaves into a big pile and jump in them? You want to do that? And do you know what my son did to me in this moment? After I had tried a peace offering, he turned his back to me. Is one of the highest forms of disrespect you can show to another human being. He knew he could trigger me without saying a word. And to this day, I am proud of myself for not cracking him over the head with that rake. Because those things go through your head, right? Never, ever do that. Obviously, now I had a decision to make. Again, conflicting emotions inside. Inside, I was like, effort. I've been patient enough. This is too much. And that's understandable. But I can feel myself inside kind of choking up for some reason. I think it's because, look, for so long, I didn't handle these situations well, and it nearly cost me my relationship with my. My son. And some of you are close to losing your kids and your spouse. Do not go down that path. Look, you never stop being a Parent. One of the most gratifying parts of life now is when my grown son texts or calls and says, dad, I could really use your advice. That is a huge high as a parent. And I almost blew that. I almost did what my dad did to me. And I'm so glad I didn't. You know what Casey got me for my birthday and Father's Day? He's organizing and taking me on an extended hiking trip for a couple weeks this summer, just the two of us. My grown son. My grown son wants to spend time with me even after our early years and all that happened. And we are so close, I think partly because we felt fought through this so hard together. He did hard work, I did hard work. There is an enormous amount of respect between us precisely because we're so much alike. So we know how hard it is not to be a jerk to each other. There's something beautiful and deep in that, and I don't want you to miss out on that. It's just so hard. With a strong willed child. Your families and friend and church and even your spouse may judge you, and you have to work through your own childhood trauma and issues to break these patterns. But it's worth it. Now the good news is you don't have to do the extremes. I was raised listening to people saying you had to break a child's will as if they're some animal. Right? If you're not being an authoritarian dictator, then you're not disciplining your kids. And some have swung too far the other way and now you're getting walked all over. And I hope what you find in our approach is it's right in between. We get to be the calm, authoritative leaders that your kids trust who can de escalate situations, teach instead of punish. You can have firm boundaries and you can have that close connection. So I began raking leaves up into a pile. And I will tell you, this was very humbling. And in some ways at the time, it felt humiliating. Why am I doing this? He should be the one apologizing to me right now. But you know, if you demand an apology, you'll just get a forced apology from these kids. So I humbled myself because humility breaks down walls. It is a powerful force and it will lead to contrition. I don't know why that just triggered me inside a little bit. It's that I think it's that our kids build up these walls inside and we try to like, pound them down and we try to reason with them and it doesn't Work. But it is sometimes. It is sometimes that humility that softens them, that they pick up on that inside of us. And I remember I put my rake down, and this was hard for me as a son of a career military father. That war kept raging, the doubt seeping in, but I did it. And then I ran and I jumped into that pile of leaves, and I felt like an idiot. I'm staring up the sky like, whose stupid idea was this calm thing? And I'm lying there in these leaves, which happen to be wet underneath. And I'm sensory like your kids. So I detest the feel of the wet leaves on my skin, and it's irritating me. And so I'm feeling a little stupid now, like I really have taken this too far in being so understanding of my child. I'm lying in the wet leaves while my son is now raking up the dirt in my formerly beautiful lawn. And I wait. And then I see it. I see my son put his rake down. That's the moment. And I've told this story for 15 years. And every time, this part gets me. Because, see, that moment, my son put his rake down, that was the moment. That was what I was looking for. That's when his heart changed. That is him. What? Humbling himself. That's my peace offering being accepted. That's when inside he said, it's time to stop punishing my dad for a choice I made. It's time to stop punishing myself by letting my pride keep me from my dad. This happened nearly 25 years ago. It is still really emotional for me. And the rake goes down, and he comes and he jumps into the leaves. And we're lying there, two guys lying next to each other. What do you think happened right away? Nothing. I was waiting for hours for an apology. And I wanted to say, okay, Case, you know what? It might be a good time to finally apologize to your father. But it didn't come right away. And I wanted to lecture him, but he knew he was wrong the whole time. He knew it. And so I didn't have to demand it. But eventually, guess what I hear. Hey, dad, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said those things to you. I should have just raked the leaves last night. And so I said, you're darn right. Could have saved all this drama and pain. And you need to remember, next time, just do what I tell you to do, okay? I didn't say that. But inside I wanted to. But there was no need to do that. Did he get away with anything? No, he Apologized for being disrespectful. He missed his hockey game and had to tell his coach why he missed the game. He raked the leaves. Well, kind of. And so a father and a son are lying in the leaves. Now we're together. We're connected. Not separated, but together. I went through my childhood separated from my dad, always being yelled at, sent to my room away from him. And now my son and I, we have worked through some huge emotions throughout that entire morning and early afternoon. And we ended up together. And he spent the rest of the day helping me around the house. And so at the end of the day, I kind of rewarded him. We went to a local car dealership because he loved gawking at Ferraris and Lamborghinis. And I'll never forget the look on Mrs. Calm's face when she came home and and saw sitting together, laughing and talking. Later, she told me she hadn't been able to relax all day because she was so used to managing the temperature of the home and being on high alert. And it was one of the first times I felt like I'd actually done this parenting thing right. I was exhausted. That roller coaster of emotions, feeling my son angry at me, me being so angry and resentful at him, and then the relief of connecting at the end. It was a new feeling for me, actually trusting myself to handle these situations. Now, did Cayce learn his lesson? Yes. For the rest of his childhood, we had a code word. I used it sparingly but very effectively. Whenever he was especially resistant and it was important, I would just say, rake, leaves. And that was a code word that meant this is a non negotiable. So he learned that he could trust my word that I would in fact keep my promises. Because that's why I promise you, if you do X, this will be the outcome, that I would keep my promises and follow through, even if it was hard. But mostly, my son learned that he could trust me as a person, that I wouldn't lash out or call him names or take out my own childhood issues on him as a child. Is that the way I would handle that situation every time? Absolutely not. But it's an option. And I thought it was a good illustration of how hard this is with your kids. Now on the next episode, in a couple days, I'm going to share 10 different ways to effectively correct a strong willed child. So please subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss that one. It's really, really good. If you have our programs on that app, listen to those routinely it will really help get these lessons deep inside you so your responses become more natural. And with the app, you'll have so many more options for each situation right at your fingertips. So thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing this journey with me. Thank you for working so hard at this. Love you all, and I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.