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Calm Parenting Podcast
MEN: How to Stop the Yelling & Power Struggles (Men In The Arena Guest Podcast)
01:05:59
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- [00:01]
Kirk Martin
Hey moms and dads, don't you just love when your child reminds you about a school project at bedtime the night before it's due? With Skylight Calendar you can avoid those last minute oops moments. It visually displays your family schedule in one place with different colors for each family member so you can eliminate those last minute surprises that upset your kids. Skylight Calendar is a wi fi connected digital display that syncs seamlessly with with all your calendars and visually showcases your family schedule on an HD touchscreen. You can manage events, chores and grocery lists on the go with the free Skylight app. This is a game changer for families like ours and your happiness is Skylight's happiness. So if in 120 days you are not 100% thrilled, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. This is a great Mother's Day gift and right now Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendars by going to skylightcow.com calm go to skylightcal.com calm for $30 off your 15 inch calendar. That's S-K Y-L-H-T C A L.com calm.
- [01:20]
Jim Ramos
How do you father your children without falling into anger? How do you raise a strong willed child and remain calm in the process? Find out as we unpack ways to do it today.
- [01:36]
Kirk Martin
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strongman stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who was actually in the arena, whose face is marked by dust and sweat and blood. Welcome to the Men in the arena podcast where we interview specialists in the realm of manhood. Each of our guests is an expert in their chosen field or cause as it relates to men. Our conviction is to call you into the arena of manhood, call you out of the faceless, nameless bleachers and call you up to be the best version of you. Because when a man gets it, everyone wins.
- [02:13]
Jim Ramos
Enjoy Today's Episode Men in the arena army, we salute you. Hey guys, thanks for listening to this episode of the Men in the Arena Podcast. I'm Jim Ramos, your host and guide, leading you to your best version in the stress bubble of life and beyond. Welcome to today's Episode. Hey guys, before we jump into that episode, we want to share with you an exciting hero story that we received last week. This is Hero story number one, 43 out of 365 that we're collecting this year. This comes from Wilson and he just said, hey, Jim, I greet you in the name of Jesus, so you gotta love it when they address you like the apostle Paul. He says, I've been listening to this blessed podcast for more than six months now and it's impacted my life. I'm now a better father. I'm now becoming a better father, husband and leader. Thanks for the great work. So, hey, Wilson, hit us up. We want to send you some swag to say thank you and just we appreciate you being one of our men in the arena. Hey guys, make sure you stay tuned to the end of this episode as we unpack our most recent man law for you. Again, those man laws are found in my book, Man Laws 101 Ways to Get your man card revoked and rules to live by. You can get that as a free resource when you Visit us@menintharena.org Hey guys, I'm super excited today to have our guest on for the second time, Kirk Martin. Kirk lives out in Dregs, Idaho with his Beautiful wife of 33 years, Anita. Kirk is the founder of Celebrate Calm and the Calm parenting podcast, teaching over 1 million parents how to stop yelling, defiance and power struggles with our most strong willed children. I can hear some of you saying Amen. Kirk is known for his very practical strategies and scripts delivered with humor and compassion. Learn how to get your kids to listen the first time while building a close, trusting relationship. Kirk, I'm so glad to have you on the show.
- [04:06]
Kirk Martin
Jim, this is all I've been looking forward to this.
- [04:08]
Jim Ramos
I'm serious. I cannot tell you how how many people we've had. A couple of your videos had over a million views on, on Instagram and TikTok. I have guy. This seems to be the biggest thing guys struggle with in parenting. You know, the guys that are there and present, the guys that are present, it seems to me that anger and yelling is their number one struggle. Are. What do you find?
- [04:32]
Kirk Martin
Yeah, that's it. Well, it's what a lot of us grew up with, right? Oh, yeah, I know. I know the right thing to do. My kid's not doing it. And then it's just that natural instinct to go to, hey, cut it out or else. Right. It's just that visceral response. And so the cool thing is though, changing it, you begin to break the generational pattern, right? Like that's. I broke the pattern I got from my dad. So when you. I want to encourage guys, you can overcome this. Like, I was a huge yeller. Like I'm still a really intense person. I have, like the calm guy thing, but inside I'm not like that. Like, I've got to work at it. But once you get it for me, here's what got me, Jim. It just works better when I talk in an even matter of fact tone and when I don't react, if, you know, I'll share this. Right before we went on, I was trying to. I had this little image in my head of like two buddies out. Like, let's say we're out, we're hanging out, and you give me a hard time and say something. What if I was like, jim, what are you thinking? What are you saying that for? I can't. Like, we wouldn't be friends. You'd be like, what are you doing? Right? So if you said that something, you are knocking me for my Yankees hat. Like, we were talking about our Red Sox. Had to be like, dude, like, I really care. Like, I wouldn't give it energy. So with our buddies, we don't do that. Or they'd be like, what are you. But then we walk through the door of our home and they're like, Legos on the floor. And now it's like, who left the Legos on the floor? Right? And then we tell our wife, like, you were home homeschooling all day. Why didn't you get the kids to pick up their stuff? And then it just kind of escalates. And we've all done those things, but it's just interesting.
- [06:19]
Jim Ramos
And you have adult children. So do I. And so before we launch into this, first of all, guys, if you haven't done it before, go listen to episode 614 with Kirk Martin. It would probably also be listed under calm parenting. You will not. You will not regret it. But one of the things I've. And since we've had you on, it's been about a year. Kirk, I've had this revelation with parenting. I'm calling it the four phases of parenting. You know, I. I entered parenting and it was kind of like, you know, father. You know, I want to be this father faithful guy. I want to be available, you know, and show up to all my kids things. Then I turn into this kind of father figure. I'm kind of. As the kids get older, I'm more of an example. I'm present. And then my kids are in their 20s now, you know, so. Just went to church with my son and his wife yesterday. Did a lot of elk hunting with my kids. You know, there's this father friend role that I'm reaping the benefits of what I call, you know, good enough parenting. And then finally there's the father, you know, forever, which is this legacy role. But here's the revelation I've had and I haven't talked to you about this, but I want to ask you about this because you, you and I are in similar places in our fathering phases. You know, the angry parent thing. When my kids were little, in the whole. Because I said so, you know, I, when my sons were in the home, I, for the most part, I controlled the narrative of our relationship because I had power over them. I was the one paying the bills. I was the one buying the food. You know, my wife and I. But what I have noticed. Kirk and I want to talk. Have you talk to this. Talk to. I want you. Hold on. I'm going to rephrase this and I want you to speak to this. But now that my kids are in their 20s, I've noticed that they control the narrative. So they control whether or not they are going to have a relationship with dad. And a lot of that goes to the. When they were younger. But then a lot of that goes on how I interact with them now because the. Because I said so. It didn't work then and it definitely doesn't work. As a father of 20 somethings, what are your thoughts on this whole? Children controlling the narrative as they're adults?
- [08:27]
Kirk Martin
Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, Casey, our son, is 30 and it's very much like that. But what I'm finding is it's the same root that keeps us close and keeps that relationship is that trust. Right? It's. It's the trust of your. Now that I'm older, like, he's going, they. He's getting married next year, so they'll start having grandkids. If I come in all heavy, like, I want time with my grandkids, like controlling again. I'm gonna get the big hand my way. So it is interesting. But he does, you know, it's that Cats in the Cradle song, whatever that one was.
- [09:05]
Jim Ramos
Right.
- [09:05]
Kirk Martin
Like, right. So. But Casey and I are. We fought when he was a kid until he was about nine and a half when I started changing. But now we just have this like awesome kind of adult friendship where I still get to speak into his life. He still will ask me. He's like, dad, I've got this thing because he's got a side job. He works with Celebrate Calm. But he, he's now managing the largest catering company in Jackson Hole.
- [09:34]
Jim Ramos
Whoa.
- [09:35]
Kirk Martin
Why? Because he's Strong willed because he can handle conflict. I always joke it's because he created so much conflict as a kid. He's comfortable with conflict and he's a take charge kid. So all the things that irritated us about him when he was little are the very qualities that helps him kick butt as a young man. But he'll still call and he'll be like, dad, I need your advice on this. What's happening more now is he'll say, dad, you know what you taught me when I was 12? I'm seeing that that was true. So guys, play the long game with your kids, the strong will kids. All I can tell you is they're horrible as kids. They're not great kids. They don't like childhood. But you are going to reap decades of closeness with them throughout their kind of adult years. And if you do this right, even if you've messed up so far, we make a change. And you'll find the kids that you fought most with, you'll often bond with even tighter because you've had to kind of rebuild. You've had to wrestle with that relationship. Right. It's kind of like Jacob with that wrestling with God.
- [10:47]
Jim Ramos
Yeah, for sure.
- [10:48]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. They were tight because they wrestled because it was hard. But yeah, I think I. Yeah, Casey, I was telling you before, like, Casey sends me a schedule. Dad, here's when I'm available to hike with you. I'm like, dude, I've got like every day, it's sunny this week. And I'm like, what do you mean you're working another job?
- [11:06]
Jim Ramos
Yeah, well, it's like my son Darby called me this morning. Text me at 5:40, hey, dad, we need to talk about a deer hunting trip. So I called him back at 5:41, you know, because I was already up, read my Bible. And so it's the same thing. It's like, hey, dad, we need to put this thing in order. We need to plan this thing. But, you know, it's really interesting. You said something I thought really applies even to marriage. My wife and I are so close at 31 years of marriage and you're at 33. So you're a little bit ahead of me. But a lot of that came from the conflict revolving around marriage. You know, we've had to wrestle through three decades of life together, and that's true. So you made a comment earlier I've never heard before, and I want to go back and just let you unpack it a little more. I know what you're talking about, but I've just Never heard the phrase. And I thought, that is a great phrase. We're talking about anger, we're talking about yelling, we're talking about a strong willed child. We're talking about defiance. You mentioned coming in heavy to me. I'm seeing a C130, like with loaded with tanks. Right. Talk to me about this phrase, coming in heavy.
- [12:09]
Kirk Martin
It's just, you know, I just did a podcast on this of. Do you mind if I tell a quick story?
- [12:16]
Jim Ramos
Oh, no, that's. Yeah, it's. It's your stage, man.
- [12:19]
Kirk Martin
So we're, we're going through this thing on kids with big emotions, big defiance. And there's defiance that comes from your strong willed child who has anxiety issues. Right. He's nervous about going to the new taekwondo class. He's like, no, I'm not going. And you misinterpret that as defiance and disrespect. And you come in heavy like you're going to get your butt in the car. I paid $165 for that class. You're going. And we misread it because the kid was just nervous because he's going to a new place and he's probably not great with other kids. And so that's a kind of defiance. And then there was this story, and I hope it doesn't offend anybody. There's a bad word. I won't say it, but I'll allude to it. So it's this father with two sons. And that's partly what I've learned as I've gotten older. What I love about scripture is that they were stories that were told that reflected their culture. And there's always a father with two sons. And one is the compliant child and one is the prodigal, the strong willed child. So this is a real life family from Minnesota. And there's been a lot of pain between this dad and the strong willed child, because the reality is they're too much alike. Right? And that happens with dads a lot. A lot. It's not always the kid who's different from you. It's the one who's like, you're going to make the same mistakes I'm going to make. So cut it out. And. And at the dinner table one night, dad asked the strong willed son to do something. And the son doesn't reply in the right way. And so the dad says, you know what? Your brother never gives many issues. And so the strong willed child says, f you, dad, and says the word. And then when I hear that, that the way that he Said that we go through different kinds of kind of fu and defiance. That was kind of a pleading, like, f you, dad. Like, I can never please you. He runs off, slams the bedroom door, and then dad rightfully is like, you're never gonna talk to me like that. You lose everything you own for the next month because we're men. We give consequences we can't keep. Right? Like, no food, no video games for three weeks.
- [14:25]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [14:25]
Kirk Martin
And then your wife's like, I gotta clean this up now.
- [14:28]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [14:29]
Kirk Martin
And so. But. But in this case, I was actually. I mentor some guys, and so we actually text. So he texts me. He's like, my son just literally flipped me off, dropped the F bomb on me, and I knew their history, and I said, I know what you want to do, and you'd be justified in reaming your son and taking everything away, but it's not going to accomplish what you want. So I want you to humble yourself. You know how hard that is to tell a dad whose son just said, f you?
- [15:03]
Jim Ramos
Yeah. Like, yeah.
- [15:04]
Kirk Martin
He's like, why do I have to humble myself? I'm looking for some contrition from that kid. I was like, I know you are, but you lead a child to contrition, just like God leads us to contrition through his goodness. God didn't lead us to contrition from, like, you know what? If you don't repent, you're going to hell. It was the goodness of God that leads us, Right?
- [15:27]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [15:27]
Kirk Martin
So it's like, here's what I want you to do. We're texting. He's texting. He's like, I really want to ream them. I said, I do, too. Don't. So he goes up and he knocks on his son's door. He doesn't have to knock on his son's door, but that was a sign of respect to his son to say, I'm not going to barge in, even though this is my house, and you just called me that name. And I gave the guy a script, and he said, son, sorry for what I said, and I'm sorry for the way I've treated you all these years. I'm gonna. I'm gonna leash up the dogs, go for a walk, and if you want to come join me, I'll listen to you and I promise I won't lecture. And when I was recording the podcast and. And. And remembering that what the dad told me afterwards, he said, every single step walking upstairs, and I almost want to cry at this. Was laden with burdened with guilt all those years I had misjudged my son, all those years I yelled at him, I'd never accepted him. And it was like he said I was pregnant with every step I took up the stairs of guilt and heaviness. Because that phrase, he's. And that's where I got it from. He said I used to come in heavy every time. And it just yielded a broken relationship. And so as it turns out, he goes outside and he's standing outside of the Minnesota cold and waiting for his son. His son finally comes out and they start walking together. And one of the reasons I like dad and son, or parents and child walking next to each other is there's no eye contact. Because in that case, eye contact is way too powerful. There's too much shame, there's too much emotion. And so here's what happened. And this, this reminded me of Casey. The kid ends up saying, dad, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have called you those names. It's the kid who apologized first in a way. And, And I want to encourage dads with this. My. Our son Casey was like this. I would blow up and I was justified because he did something wrong. And so I blew up. And then I'd be like, I'm. I'm mad. I don't want to talk right now. And Casey would come into the living. Dad, we need to talk. We need to talk. I don't want to talk right now. You need to calm down. I don't want to talk. It was my strong willed son who was so difficult. He craved my acceptance. He had to have right relationship with his father. If he and my wife were kind of at odds a little bit, it didn't mess him up much. But a son or a daughter with her dad, there's something really powerful about a dad. I have a lot of power with my son. I have an incredible amount. I, I don't tremble. That's a little bit dramatic. But I realize my wife could call Casey right now and say, you're a loser, you suck. And he'd be like, what do you. You've been drinking. What's going on? He would, it wouldn't affect him. If I look at my son the wrong way, Jim, if you look at one of your sons when you're out elk hunting and you give him that like, cocked head look, or that. Or if you shake your head at him, dad, what's the matter? What's the matter? Like, we have an enormous amount of power in our words and in our acceptance. And anyway, what ended up happening was the kid ended up saying, dad, I don't feel like you like me as much as you like my brother. That opened the dad to say, I love you every bit as much as I love your brother. I just don't know how to connect with you. And we're so much alike. It just, you trigger me and I trigger you. But that moment when that kid dropped the F bomb on the dad became an opportunity for them to connect and heal the relationship. So I, I don't want guys, I don't want you to miss these opportunities that were filled with emotion. Because, guys, we often justify things and then we see kid doesn't listen to anything I say. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna withdraw and. And withhold my affection. And I'll just let my wife handle that kid. Right? That's what I did. And it happens a lot in homes. I'll just handle easy kids. 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- [22:22]
Jim Ramos
Man, you know, it's interesting when you told that story, I was raised in a family where we could write a book about the F word. And the way he said F you dad was in a way that was almost mourning the loss of a relationship. It wasn't a defiant fu. Now I don't get me wrong, you shouldn't say that to your dad. But if reading the tone he was actually saying, why don't you like me? I mean, I know you love me, but you don't like me and it's breaking my heart. So that's really powerful stuff. I want to go back to something that we talked about last time you're on the show because you alluded to it just now. You have this dad who's disrespected. His kid goes to the bedroom. The dad is just in what he's about to do. But as you shared with the, the, this friend of yours that he was, he was about to accomplish something just. But not the end game. So why, why do you. One of the things you like to say, Kirk, is that the quickest way to change your child's behavior is to first control your own. Can you walk us through that a little bit more?
- [23:26]
Kirk Martin
Yeah, because I have, I have so much control over other people's responses by how I approach. Look, this is at a hotel. This is with your waiter or waitress. It's with your wife. It's with everyone with a strong willed child. They're very sensitive kids and they will pick up on tone of voice is really important. And so I realized I was always justified. And look, as a guy, I can justify anything. Yeah, you're in the home. Right. I was tired. I work hard.
- [23:57]
Jim Ramos
Absolutely.
- [23:58]
Kirk Martin
I can justify anything. But I try to keep my mind on that and go, it's about a relationship. And so what I noticed is I'll do two things. One is body posture, right? Guy walks into the home, hands on the hips, standing over kids. Just produces a defensive response, right? So it's. It, it sounds dumb, but sitting down, it's one of my favorite things to do. Changes the dynamic from I'm standing over you because we do project. And I do have to say this is. Guys, just watch this. We're intimidating people. We're very intimidating as men, even when we don't need mean to be. Even being gruff, right? Like I did this one with my wife for many years where I was just kind of gruff. Well, that's a, that creates a barrier. So what I really wanted was for my wife to stop bringing up stuff that I needed to work on. So I just become gruff. And that's a barrier. But it's intimidating to a lot of kids and a lot of women. And so I just be aware of that. Like you're like, you're a big guy, right? You've got you, you have a presence about you. Like when you're on Instagram and you're walking through the woods, right? It's like I'm gonna kill an elk with one hand and I'm gonna give some men some tips with the other one, right? With a smile on your face.
- [25:24]
Jim Ramos
But oh man.
- [25:25]
Kirk Martin
But just be aware of that as men. And so I did the opposite. So I would sit and then tone of voice I'd hit on. I may have done this last time even matter of fact tone. It's the tone you use at work when you're at the office or you have a business and everything's falling apart. You don't run through the office. You know what, sales are down, you're not selling, you need to go, right? We don't do that at the office. We do that home though, right? So sometime try this. Come home and talk to your kids like you're talking to a colleague at. Off at the office. Because the office is like, hey, Jim, here's the deal. Sales are down, got this new competitor coming in, so we need to problem solve. We got to fix this. See, the tone is freaking out, talking like that. So same thing with. Can I do an example online?
- [26:20]
Jim Ramos
Well, here's. So yeah, I want you to. Yeah, I want you to do this for sure. I want to, I want to make sure we talk about the two extremes in tone between. I'm calling them sweet and sour. So the, the overly aggressive, heavy handed. And then the, the guy that or even the mom who's like, oh, honey, I mean, let's talk about both those extremes.
- [26:40]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. Okay. So this is not meant to be offensive to anybody. I'll just tell you what I've realized with all these kids, that sweet tone. And many of you have wives who use that, right? Like sweetie baby, mommy needs your help. Right. As soon as you say that to like a 4 year old, mommy needs your help. The 4 year old strong willed 4 year olds can be like, well, mommy might want to find someone who wants to help because you're not going to be me. Because strong willed kids are like four going on 24.
- [27:07]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [27:08]
Kirk Martin
But that's a big thing in Christian circles especially. I really love the gentle parenting people.
- [27:15]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Kirk Martin
I love their goal. Where, where I would caution is that really sweet tone and referring to yourself as mommy or daddy. I don't like that with a strong willed child. They hear it as condescending and they hear it as weakness.
- [27:30]
Jim Ramos
Weakness in the parenting.
- [27:31]
Kirk Martin
Yes. It also sounds disrespectful.
- [27:34]
Jim Ramos
Yes. Yep.
- [27:35]
Kirk Martin
I'm going to treat you like a baby because you're, you're not capable of actually controlling yourself. So I'm going to talk in this kind of pleading tone. So that's one end and then the other end was the one I did, which is fear and intimidation. My way or the highway.
- [27:48]
Jim Ramos
Yes. Yes.
- [27:48]
Kirk Martin
And in between it is the quarterback who is in complete control is the Patrick Mahomes down by what was the almost two touchdowns in the super bowl at the half. And he comes out in the second half not freaking out. Hey guys, we're down by 10 points. We're going to march down the field, execute our plays, score, get the ball back and score again. Break. His team follows him. Precisely because he's in control of himself is the magic of Brady. Last year when he had a horrible team, then he freaked out a little bit. But it's, it's the guy that you want to follow into battle.
- [28:25]
Jim Ramos
Yes.
- [28:27]
Kirk Martin
I'd encourage you have that mindset when you walk through your home of I am going to be the calm, authoritative leader in control of myself and no matter what the kids are doing, you sit down, say, huh, that was interesting. So what do you, so what do you think's going to happen if you keep doing that? Son or daughter? Because now I'm talking to them rather than you better cut that out right now, young lady. It, it just escalates things. So tone of voice, sitting down, controlling myself. I'd encourage the guys try this this week. Walk into a room, let's see if you can do this. And don't fix it. Don't fix the situation. Don't fix your wife's mood. She doesn't want you to fix it. Right. Because that's one of one thing, Jim, that took me a year. Took me a full year to get this one to stop proving my point. Because that's a big thing that.
- [29:25]
Jim Ramos
Oh, for sure.
- [29:26]
Kirk Martin
I always told you guys, your wife is never going to say, honey, you know what? I'm so glad I married someone who's always right. And you're always there to point out that my emotions are illegitimate. It really makes me feel safe. Can't wait to go to the bedroom. Like, she's never going to say that.
- [29:41]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [29:42]
Kirk Martin
Right.
- [29:42]
Jim Ramos
Ever.
- [29:43]
Kirk Martin
Ever. So. So practice walking into a room. I don't have to fix that situation. As a guy, you feel like, I better stop this. I better clamp down. Jim, a guy told me the other day, he said, I thought my role as a dad was to walk around correcting everybody. And I was like, that works if you want to be seen as a jerk, right?
- [30:05]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [30:06]
Kirk Martin
And have nobody like you. But discipline means to teach, not to punish, and not just to down people. So I don't know if I answered your question or not.
- [30:15]
Jim Ramos
Well, it's interesting. I was. Because I've been a pastor for 30 years, I tend to get preachy in my tone. You know, I tend to want to fix the thing. And I thought about what you were saying, and as you were speaking, I said to myself, self, if you would just take one second longer, like, instead of going in and going, okay, let's do this thing. Just stop, change your tone and carry on like that one second to stop that one second. When I do that, everything works out better. When I don't do that, I'm sleeping on the couch and living a marriage of celibacy. I mean what I'm saying. And so, I mean. But no, what you're saying is absolutely right. And I'm just thinking for my own personal failure, which this anger thing is probably my biggest parenting failure, and thinking, man, if I would have stopped preaching. I mean, I'm a good parent. I. I love my kids, I'm close to my kids. But I'm thinking if I reflect on my two biggest failures in life, it was not framing my wife the way that I should have framed her in front of the kids and then dealing with the boys with anger more often than calm. So this stuff here is one of my favorite parenting episodes because you're teaching something I wish I would have learned. Right. So if I Would have just stopped and taken one second. Calm your tone. Just self talk to myself or Lord help me, help me Jesus. So, so we have body posture sit down instead of tower over. We have the tone of voice at that balance between sweet and sour or gentle and authoritarian the eye contact. So now this is interesting. I want to go back and visit this. So I as guys we like to do life side to side, right? So I mean it's always good to have the guy over here. Right? So how do we deal with eye contact not only with a strong willed child, but how do we deal with eye contact with our daughters versus our sons? Is it all the same across the board?
- [32:16]
Kirk Martin
I'd say here's a couple things. One is with the strong willed child who is upset I tend not to do eye contact.
- [32:25]
Jim Ramos
Okay, good, good.
- [32:26]
Kirk Martin
Because. Because when child does something wrong, throws something hits his sister, yells at your wife, he knows what he did was wrong. Now there becomes that shame and embarrassment. Now it's like look at me, look at me when I'm. And now it's like God's saying hey Jim, just saw. Just heard that thought in your brain. I saw. I will take it out of you. Hey Robert, just saw you check out that other woman in church. Look at me, look at me. Right? You're like nope, don't want to look at you in the eyes right now. Too much shame. Also think about this. Nobody likes to be watched when they're freaking out or when they're struggling.
- [33:09]
Jim Ramos
Oh, that's right. That's good.
- [33:12]
Kirk Martin
Isn't that true?
- [33:12]
Jim Ramos
Never thought of that.
- [33:14]
Kirk Martin
Nobody wants. You know what? I was hiking. We were hiking.
- [33:16]
Jim Ramos
Leave me alone.
- [33:18]
Kirk Martin
Mountains over here. And there was a. I was alone and there was this nice couple from Ohio. So we're hiking up because I was kind of leading them. It was a tough hike and I was like I'm going up there, just follow me. So this guy kept turning around to his wife. Honey, are you okay? Honey, you okay? And she finally said if you ask me one more. And I said dude, nobody likes to watch be watched when they're struggling. Let's hike ahead. Give her space to struggle without someone staring at you. So right. So that's part of the eye contact thing is like if let's say a kid is makes a paper airplane, flies it, it doesn't fly well. So strong will kid's going to pick it up. Stupid airplane. This is dumbest airplane. I'm dumb. And he's going to crumple up the airplane and throw it down. Every good Parent walks in, oh, buddy, that was a good airplane. Well, that's a wrong thing to say because child's going to be like, duh for a good airplane would have flown. So instead what I'm going to do is come and say, dude, if I were you, I'd be frustrated too. You put a lot of time into that airplane didn't fly, right. That's frustrating. Listen, I've got to go to the bathroom. When I get back, figure out a different way to do this so I give some intensity. I validate the emotions right there. Yeah, you should be frustrated instead of like, there's no need to be frustrated. No, you should be frustrated. Then the I'm going to the bathroom is I'm not going to stand here and watch you go from being really upset to calming yourself down. Like, is it just think about this. All men do this. We all freak out over stupid stuff, right? Like one little thing goes wrong, you're like, I don't know why this. And then later you're like, I don't even. It was my. A button was off my shirt and then I freaked out for 15 minutes. Men, if when your kids and wife are staring at you like in the car, when you have a road rage, think of the shame and embarrassment of like, I'm a 35 year old dude and I just did that. So that's part of it is I give some space during that time so they're not being watched. Watched. And the other thing with eye contact. I guess my general rule is when I praise kids, eye contact. Hey, that gym, really good choice. Fist bump. When I'm praising a lot of eye contact. When kids are struggling. When I have a hard talk with a teenage girl, right? Instead of honey, let's come, let's have an eye to eye, let's have a big talk. It's too heavy, it's too much. So then I might go sit down and start drawing. Start coloring on something, doodling, saying, hey honey, why don't you come in? Let's. Let's color, let's draw. And now we're together. You have a great conversation with two people. Coloring is phenomenal with teenagers. Actually it's a really and and little kids. But that's kind of my eye contact. I don't know that there's a huge difference with girls. I will say this because this is a guy's podcast. I am going to try, I'm trying to teach women how to. Jim, isn't this true? In the church and elsewhere, men have been taught how to speak like women so that we can connect with our wives.
- [36:37]
Jim Ramos
We.
- [36:39]
Kirk Martin
Yeah, we had to do. We learned that. But you know what's kind of missing in my world is moms learning how to speak the way that their husbands relate to. Or boys. Look, I've got a son that's 30. Casey and I have very short and sweet. If we need to get something across, there might be a couple inappropriate words.
- [37:00]
Jim Ramos
Yep.
- [37:01]
Kirk Martin
But it's not more than three or four words. And where she's like, got it, dad. Got it. It's not like, son, we really need to share our hearts. Right.
- [37:11]
Jim Ramos
Oh, my wife. I'll tell my wife. Speak man. To me, like, women tend to be linear and divergent in how they communicate. You get around a group of women, it's exhausting. And when you get around men, it's like, you suck. No, you suck. You suck more. Okay, thank you. We're bros. Fist bump. But so that's. Yeah. Women need to learn to speak direct and linear with women listening. Right now. We need you to direct.
- [37:33]
Kirk Martin
Let me put it on us as men.
- [37:34]
Jim Ramos
Well, I was going to do that next, but you do it. You can do that part.
- [37:37]
Kirk Martin
Men teach your wife.
- [37:40]
Jim Ramos
Yes.
- [37:41]
Kirk Martin
Speak to you. I was talking to a mom the other day because there's marriage issues. And she was like, well, we were sitting in bed, and I was saying how heavy that makes my heart feel. And I was like, you can't do that. I can't help your heavy heart. Now, if you said, honey, what I really would like, could. When we're sitting in bed, could you sit so that your leg is touching mine? Because I really like the physical. I can sit with my leg next to you, but I don't know what to do about the heaviness in your heart.
- [38:11]
Jim Ramos
I can fix the leg touch. I don't know how to lift a heart. But I will say one more thing. Kirk, and I can't. I can't resist. I'm going to go back because I'm going to give these guys a pro tip. This whole hiking thing, my wife and I have gotten in so many fights hiking. One of them a couple weeks ago ended up where she just left and took the dog. We were watching and went down another trail, and I thought, jim, you know better. Never let your wife walk behind you. Never, never, never let her follow you. Always put her in the front. She can go at her own pace. You can. You got a better view, and there's no arguing. So, guys, I'm telling you, that's a pro tip. Always Hike with your wife. Now, don't hike with somebody else's wife in front of you, Only your wife. And then I want to go back to the eye contact thing because I know you were thinking this, but you didn't say it. I know. With me, I've got one what I would call strong willed child. I'm probably emotionally closer. I'm very, very close to him. I'm very close to his heart. He shares really deep things always. But there was a season in my life I had to tell myself, smile with your eyes when you look at him because sometimes our eyes communicate I hate you. And that's where that fu. Dad comes from.
- [39:27]
Kirk Martin
Right.
- [39:27]
Jim Ramos
So that's why, that's why I love your advice on the eye contact because sometimes our eyes just don't communicate the right message.
- [39:35]
Kirk Martin
Right.
- [39:35]
Jim Ramos
So. And then there's shame involved. So they don't want to, you know. You know, when I, if hypothetically I've ever flipped somebody off when I was driving my car, I don't want my kids and family staring at me. You know, I'm hoping they didn't see me. Right, right.
- [39:50]
Kirk Martin
Well, that's. Jim. It's a lot of times. Why? Like, like when Casey was a teenager and we were kind of going at it, I'd be like, hey, I gotta run, gotta run up the store, stop at Taco Bell, get a couple tacos. Now we're driving in the car next to each other. Conversation's just a lot easier because I'm not bearing down on him again. There's a little bit of an intimidation thing that we have as guys where we look, we all know we go to a hotel and the room's not ready. We know we step forward. Right. We do these subtle things because I know I'm bigger than that clerk at the desk and I'm going to pull out my thing and then. So I just try to do the opposite of that sometimes and just watch how it works. It's so, it's just cool that it just works better.
- [40:37]
Jim Ramos
So. So it's really interesting that you said that, Kirk, because I have a phrase in my brain that I think you just said it. I try to get smaller. I had a kid, I had a 14 year old kid in Colorado and I was at a speaking event and he said, you're like a rhinoceros. Like, you know, I got to make sure I'm not horned down, ready to charge. So I try to get smaller. Right. Because it's really easy for us to overpower, you know, try to overpower so you talk about body posture, tone of your voice, eye contact, and you've alluded to this other thing. And I want to go back to. Because I think this is important that, that we, we should not ignore the emotion of the moment. Right. That we should acknowledge it. Can you unpack that a little more?
- [41:20]
Kirk Martin
So in, in. Look, it's just acknowledging reality.
- [41:25]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [41:25]
Kirk Martin
Because I think one of our weaknesses as guys is we're really good at problem solving in the work environment. Our brains, we just go there. And then when we come home, our wife is emotional, our kids are emotional, we go to, hey, it's no big deal, shouldn't be upset. Honey, just overreacting. Hey, there's no need to be upset. And I think I joke at our live events sometimes. I'll say what the honest statement you make to your wife or child is, look, I'm just so immature that I can't handle you having emotions. Your emotions make me uncomfortable. In fact, look, if you're a guy, go home and tell your wife that tonight. Just say, hey, you know, all those times you've kind of shared and then I dismissed you or your emotions, that's not your issue. I'm just uncomfortable with your emotions because I think that my job is to fix your emotions. It is so liberating in life to know my job is not to make you happy. My job is to not make you not feel disappointed. Right. With kids, that's modern day parent. One of the beautiful things that our parents had going for them is that they didn't get moved by the fact that we were bored or unhappy. It wasn't that they weren't caring. I think there was a certain respect of human nature where what they were saying is, look, you guys had all day long to roam the neighborhood and do stuff. If you weren't happy today, that's your issue.
- [42:56]
Jim Ramos
Right.
- [42:56]
Kirk Martin
It's not my job to be your entertainer. But modern day parents are so engaged with their kids, we notice, we notice every mood. Oh, he's not happy. He's up in his room and he's not happy right now. And I'm not talking about depression and severe anxiety. I'm just talking about letting your kids own their own moods and your wife owning her own mood and me being able to say, hey, honey, it sounds like you're frustrated. Listen, I'd love to listen, preferably at halftime, but I would love to listen. You can say that it's fair. No, but I'd love to listen. But watch, when you get out of this cycle of Having to fix her mood. And you can say, if you want to be in a bad mood for the rest of the day, you have the right to be in a bad mood the rest of the day. I gotta grow up and realize that's not a reflection of me. My job is to control my own emotions, which is hard enough. Is, Jim, you've already found this in 30 years of marriage. It is so liberating to know I don't have to fix that. And I hold, lack of a better word, hold space for it. So when my wife or my son, my kids, want to talk about it, then I'm like, oh, yeah, I'd be frustrated, too. That's. Sometimes that's all people want to hear.
- [44:12]
Jim Ramos
Right. I'll tell you what. In my marriage, I've learned I say two phrases over and over again. The first phrase is. And I say it every day is I love you. The second phrase I say over and over and over again. I mean. And she knows what I mean when I say it. It's. Here it is, honey, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I just say it because I know I can't fix it. And normally that launches a whole nother marital conversation. But just that phrase says, this is your emotion, not mine. I love you, and I acknowledge how you feel, but I'm not here to fix it. But it launches the thing. But I will say something else, too, that you're alluding to these parents that are overly engaged in their child's emotion. And I want to just draw a distinction here, because what you're talking about right now is you're talking about, generally speaking, good parents. These are parents who want to engage. They're present physically, they're present emotionally. We're not talking about these absent parents. We're talking, you know. You know. And if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already a pretty good parent. We're talking to you guys. We're talking to you guys. So I just don't want you to feel like you're a bad parent or you're somehow exempt. You know what I mean? So you talk about. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
- [45:29]
Kirk Martin
No, no, go ahead.
- [45:30]
Jim Ramos
Well, you talk about acknowledging what they're experiencing, and then you have another thing that you like to tell parents. And you already alluded this. You talked about this going to Taco Bell. I'm going to go take a dog for the walk. I'm going to go color you. There's. You probably could write an entire book about this in conflict. Give them A job to do.
- [45:52]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. Okay.
- [45:53]
Jim Ramos
Seems like that's a go to for you.
- [45:54]
Kirk Martin
Yeah, it's definitely a go to. And here's, here's something a little bit new that I didn't do last time that I think it'll help guys a lot.
- [46:02]
Jim Ramos
Yes.
- [46:03]
Kirk Martin
So, so child's melting down, freaking out. What's our, our first go to is, hey, you need to calm down. And, and I guarantee every man here, if someone says, hey, you know, Jim, you just need to calm down. You're like, oh, you know what you need to do?
- [46:19]
Jim Ramos
You want some calm, buddy?
- [46:21]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. That's when the F bomb comes out.
- [46:22]
Jim Ramos
Oh, you know it.
- [46:24]
Kirk Martin
No, nobody likes that. And so here's the switch. And I'll spend a minute setting this up. 30 seconds. The reason kids and adults get upset is because something is out of our control. Right? And, and strong willed kids have these very, very busy brains. They've got a lot of anxiety. Usually everything feels like it's out of their control. It's why they're controlling and bossy. It's why you can't play board games with them. They cheat, they change the rules of the game, they quit. Because that's all about controlling the outcome of the game. Guys. It's not that they're poor sports. They just feel like if I lose, that makes me a loser. It's a confidence issue. But when a child loses control of himself, then they start freaking out. So here's the switch in your mind. Try this. This week, when you walk into that room, instead of your goal being, I need to calm the, that kid down. Switch to, I need to give my child something he or she is in control of. And that's where oftentimes the job comes in. So I quick example I had, we had a lot of kids that came to our house for these camps back in the day. They come in all bossy, they'd be upset and I'd say, oh, you know, I just forgot I've got this broom in the basement, it's broken. If you could find some duct tape, fix that up for me. It really helped me out. So watch. This was a kid who three seconds ago, this is stupid. I hate you. This is dumb. Freaking out. And instead of addressing that and trying to get him to calm down, because how do you make someone calm down? I shifted and said in my head, he's out of control. Nothing feels like it's in his control. And that's why they freak out. So I gave him a job to do, fixing my broom. Well, that's concrete. He can hold it, he can feel it. He can see he accomplished something. So that's why I like giving jobs a lot is because a job is something concrete to do. Right? It's. Oh, you know what? And this is my go to. This is just my honest. Oh, you know, I just remembered or I'd forgotten. That buys me like three seconds to think of something. You know, there's mulch. Some of you have weird kids that'll move mulch. They love shoveling stuff. Be like, dude, you know what? I forgot there's some mulch in the backyard. I really needed it moved from this side of the yard to that side of the yard. Do you think you could do that? And you get a kid who's really upset. It feels really good to dig a shovel into mulch and to move it because now I've got a pile and I'm moving it from here to here. There's something very grounding about having something concrete to do when I'm upset because you can't think yourself calm. Okay, Breathe. Because breathing makes me more upset. I hate deep breathing and I hate counting down from 10.
- [49:16]
Jim Ramos
I always run out of air.
- [49:18]
Kirk Martin
I want to murder someone.
- [49:19]
Jim Ramos
I've tried to. This block, they call it box breathing. I keep running out of air. I'm like, this sucks. I can't hold it. Blow out all my air and then hold another force seconds. I'm getting pissed. So here's my question. So here's my question. So, okay, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a child who's angry. I'm a strong willed giant child. So. And you're giving them a job to do. How's your success rate on that? When that, you know, go tape that broom. Are they going to do that? Are they going to. Whoa, you're giving, you know, are they going to push back? Talk to me about that.
- [49:52]
Kirk Martin
It's not a choice chore. It's a favor. Right? It's not a chore of like, go empty the trash. It's some kind of mission. We, we would call it a mission, okay? Because. Because these kids are very mission oriented.
- [50:07]
Jim Ramos
Okay.
- [50:07]
Kirk Martin
So I'm giving them a mission of like, oh, just remembered this. Bet you can't do X.
- [50:12]
Jim Ramos
Okay, Right.
- [50:13]
Kirk Martin
Some kind of challenge. Not a chore of go take the trash out. Hey, you're really upset. Go take the trash out. It's always right, like, I'll make you more upset.
- [50:22]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [50:23]
Kirk Martin
It's something that they would be good at. Now the, the broom example is because Most of the strong will kids we had were very good at tinkering with things. They like to tinker with things. They like to build things. So one of my examples is always, child's really upset. I may sit on the floor, Right. So child's freaking out, and I say, hey, I can tell you're frustrated. Listen, I'm going to go in the living room, dump the Legos out. When you're ready, if you want to come in. I bet we could build a really cool spaceship. Why? Because holding those Legos in my hand, I can put them together. See how. See, this is in my hands. You just told me, calm down. I don't know how to calm down. I do know, though, how to build a spaceship. I do know how to build with my Legos. I know how to fix a broom. I know how to color. I know how to. You know, if you've got an athletic kid, it could be, hey, let's go. Let's go shoot free throws. See who can shoot, get the most out of the first 20. Okay. I'm good at that. That's rep. Repetitive things, Right. Shooting hoops. Shooting hoops. Same motion. Does that make.
- [51:31]
Jim Ramos
Yeah. So. Yeah. So I'm just trying to unpack the whole thing because I. It generates questions in my mind. I'm sure it's generating some questions of other guys. So. So is this assuming the kid's frustrated, but not frustrated directly at you because he still wants to spend time with you shooting baskets or building Legos? Or does this matter? Do you find it matters if they're angry at you or not?
- [51:51]
Kirk Martin
Look, it's. I'll separate it in two things. Usually it won't matter that much if you're actually leading them to a calm place.
- [52:01]
Jim Ramos
Yes.
- [52:02]
Kirk Martin
Right. They want to be calm. They don't want to freak out. They just don't know how to get from here down to here. Because we don't know. Yeah, we have a model to form.
- [52:14]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [52:14]
Kirk Martin
So they're freaking out. So it's like you've been in situations where you're drawn to that guy, that fireman, that the emt, those guys exude so much. You're like, I can do anything with you because it's going to be okay. You feel? I don't like using the word safe, but it's kind of what it is when I be. When I get to that role, I'm like, dude, look, with boy or girl, I could say, you know what? If I were you, I'd be freaking out, too. Things that your. Your Brother. Your brother took your Doritos. You should want to hit him. I don't, but you should want to hit him. He took your. Your Doritos, dude. Totally get it. I. You know what popped in my head, Jim, is. Is this thing I used to do with kids at our house. Because we had all these kids that would come to our house, and they were all on the spectrum and upset, emotional kids. I just learned to literally sit on the sofa and put my feet up and say, yeah, totally get why you're doing that. So what are you gonna. What do you want to do next? Like, that. That conversation and that tone. Because instead of like, oh, no, why are you getting so upset or going to. You know what? If you don't play right and do that, you're going to lose your Legos forever. There was a conversational tone that normalized frustration. Of course you're frustrated because your sister. Your sister ate the last brownie. But what do we do? We lecture. You know what, there are kids starving in Africa. You know, a little bit of gratitude would be nice, right? It's like, acknowledge human nature. There was one brownie left, and the kid's sister took it. What's he supposed to say? You know what? I love when my sister gets the last brownie. Like, that'd be weird, right? Is his. His normal response should be, how come she always takes the last brownie? Dude, if I were you, those brownies are awesome. I'd be mad at your sister, too. So we got a couple options here. You can go hit your sister, but then you're not getting brownies for, like, another year, you lose all your stuff. Or we can problem solve. What's it. What's another way we'd handle that? And now I'm shifting his brain. Oh, can I share one thing, Jim? I just learned?
- [54:22]
Jim Ramos
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [54:24]
Kirk Martin
This. This is an advantage that men have over our wives. I was just listening to this other podcast, and this guy was talking about tone of voice. You know, that, like, late, late night FM voice. That kind of deep, low key tone. When you talk like that to someone, it automatically creates a neural response in the hearer that bypasses anything rational. There's just something about that tone. You are bypassing their emotional circuitry by just saying, like, yeah, of course you're upset because your sister ate the last brownie. Why wouldn't you be upset? So what are we gonna do? What are our options here? Well, I could go hit her. Yeah, you could hit her, But I could pound the crap out of you too. Probably not a good option. So what's option number two? Well, dad, could, could we go up to the store and maybe don't tell mom. Could we go up and get some Doritos? You know what, dude, you get in the car right now. I like the way you handle that. And then you go to Dairy Queen because you wanted to, you wanted the brownie Frosty or whatever, not. What do they have?
- [55:31]
Jim Ramos
Blizzard baby. Blizzard.
- [55:32]
Kirk Martin
Blizzard. Yes, I want the black brownie Blizzard. But it's so that tone. We have an advantage as men that that tone is automatically calming the high pitched or higher pitched. And a lot of talking makes people much more upset and feel much more unstable. So it's something in the circuitry.
- [55:54]
Jim Ramos
Well, what? I, well I heard you speaking there and I go, okay, I'm getting this now. So there's an element of. When I'm giving a job, not a chore, there's an element of deflection. I'm deflecting their anger to something else. Maybe it's the, maybe the correct word is projection. And then I'm becoming. Even if they're angry at me, I've allied myself with them. Now instead of becoming, instead of their adversary, with my tone of voice, with my posture, with my eye contact choices, with my giving them a job to do, I now have become an ally which lowers the level. That's what I'm hearing you say.
- [56:34]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. Well, let's do an example where my son's younger, I tell him something he doesn't like. Stupid. Why can't I go? You're not going to let me go to my friend's sleepover? They're doing a big thing and he's mad at me. Look, some of this Jim, as I get older, you probably found, just don't take it so personally, right? Like what? Like what's your, is your 13 year old supposed to say, dad, you know what? I only have a 13 year old brain and my brain's not developed. So I really appreciate that you have the wisdom and courage to say no. Like they should say, what were you thinking? That's dumb. Why can't I do that? And then I normalize it. And I used to tell Casey, of course you're mad at me because your job as a teenager is to push the limits. It's to do all these experiences with your friends. That's your job. My job is to give you as much freedom as I can give you without you making a stupid teenage decision that will ruin the rest of your life. And I Like having those talks of like, Casey, this is a cat and mouse game that we're going to have throughout your teenage years. You should want to push and I should want to bring you back. That's that, that's how it's going to work. And there are times where I'm going to say no and I did this where I'll say no on purpose just so you're disappointed. Because I want two things. One, I want you to know that life is filled with disappointment, right? So if you're going to be like a Denver Broncos fan this year, even though you have your great new coach, a little bit of humble pie there. Yeah, you're gonna have a disappointing year. And then the other part of this that I wanted to teach myself was, I'm okay with your disappointment. I'm okay with, with you being mad at me. I don't need you to be happy with my decision. Now this is not that old school. I'm the authority figure in the home, which means I get to yell and say whatever I want. I'm a dictator. I've been to former Eastern European countries, right, that were under dictatorships. Dictatorships are not that awesome. Right. It's an old school Christian thing of like, I'm the dictator in the home. I'm like, it didn't work any place else. I'm not the dictator. I'm a leader. Leaders a lot different. But anyway, I, I got to where I would say that of like, of course you're mad at me because I won't let you do what you want to do and I'm okay with that. So be mad at me. You can give me the silent treatment for the rest of the day. I'm comfortable with that. I'm a grown man. I get it. Or when you're ready to move on, I bet we could come up with plan B. And then I give him some space to process that and later he come in, okay, what's stupid plan B? Right? And I'd be like, okay, right? And then you have to not get upset because he called it stupid plan B. He's a disappointed 13 year old kid. So. Yeah. So I think you become that ally. I, I wish I could say it in this way of like, just stop fighting everything. We're grown men. We've seen stuff in life like, was your five year old is your five year old. Your five year old is supposed to have tantrums every day. That's like their job description, right? Until they finally learn it doesn't work because mom and dad, sit down. When I'm having a tantrum and they don't give me what I want, and so then they figure out a more mature way to handle it. But take some of that pressure off of yourselves as men. Like, I've got to correct every infraction in my home or my child's going to grow up and be a reprobate. No, you were an idiot as a kid too. And we did all kinds of stupid stuff. And look, we turned out to be pretty good as adults.
- [60:20]
Jim Ramos
Yes.
- [60:21]
Kirk Martin
Being relaxed with some of that stuff.
- [60:23]
Jim Ramos
Well, I love what you're saying. Again to good parents who want to grow. We have to be okay with our children's anger. I'm okay with that. I do want to. Just one last question here. I do want to dive into my anger, so I'm okay with my child's anger. But what are some tips for a dad to not lose his control and lose his temper? What are some ways to keep the situation de. Escalated?
- [60:48]
Kirk Martin
I'd say one of my favorite things is do the opposite of what you normally do because what you're doing now is ruining the situation. Escalating. So I'd be. So when I walk into the room like this, that's when I started sitting rather than getting on the child. I ask questions.
- [61:06]
Jim Ramos
That's great.
- [61:07]
Kirk Martin
Hey, I'm curious. Looks like you're upset about something. What's going on? And do you. Do you think that this is going to get you what you want? Because the kids already know what they're doing is wrong.
- [61:20]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [61:21]
Kirk Martin
Right?
- [61:21]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [61:22]
Kirk Martin
There's no, there's no need to point. Like every kid lies. Kids lie because they know what they did was wrong. I don't get upset about lying. Everybody, they lie because they messed up. And it was the first thing a human being did on earth.
- [61:34]
Jim Ramos
Yes.
- [61:35]
Kirk Martin
Right. Adam, I just read that again and it was really interesting. Adam, don't eat from that tree. Adam eats from the tree. God says, hey, what happened over there? And he's like, that woman that you put here with me, that was even worse than I remember.
- [61:51]
Jim Ramos
Oh, it's. Yeah.
- [61:52]
Kirk Martin
That woman that you put here with.
- [61:55]
Jim Ramos
Me, it was like that naked lady over there. That one.
- [61:59]
Kirk Martin
Yeah, yeah. @ Ms. Lewinsky. Yeah, that woman. So it's normalized. Go. You know what would be a helpful thing is go back into your childhood and remember what it was like to be a kid. Right. Because we get all into like, especially Christian men a lot because we're like, we've got to raise a God fearing man who does he's on the straight and narrow and it's like we weren't that great as kids. We had room and space to do mischievous stuff and dumb. Look, we're guys, we're still doing dumb stuff, right? That's part of our job description too. I'm an ultra responsible CEO, but I do dumb stuff sometimes because I'm still a little kid, right? We, Jim, we were at a. Because we're older now and we're in a cold area. So we go to this hot springs and you know, I grew up as an athlete. So there's this dad in there playing catch with his kids. Why? Just jumped in and intercepted. Because I wanted to do the pick six. Why? Because I'm a 57 year old boy that wanted to do a pick six. I playing with the kids and the mom's like, oh, honey, it looks like you found another big boy to play with. Because that's who we are. We're just boys, Right? So give yourselves for the anger part, I sit down, just try this week, do this tone. Talk to your kids in the same manner that you talk to your colleagues at work because I guarantee you don't walk. Talk to your colleagues at work. Like, what were you thinking? How many times you don't go to your room, go to your cubicle.
- [63:35]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [63:36]
Kirk Martin
Talk to them like adults, walk in, bond with them. And if you want to go like an extra step, I'd say find. This is a cool one. Find the trigger that irritates you most. Right? Let's say it's a messy bedroom, right? Because you're going to have orderly thing. Because you're not orderly in life, you're not going to be orderly later on. Right? Like all those things. So it's so nice being older, isn't it, Jim? You can look glorious and you're like, that didn't matter. Why did I? We spent three weeks fighting over that. But find something that irritates you and then bond with your kids over it. So you've got a little daughter whose room is an absolute mess and you say, honey, if you just spend three minutes a day on it, it would stay orderly. She's not going to spend three minutes a day. Why? Because she's not 42 like you, she's seven. Instead, come in, play some music and say, all right, let's do dance party cleanup. How many songs we doing, honey? We're going to do one song or two song cleanup and play some obnoxious kid music that you hate that she loves and dance around with her And. And enjoy her and help her clean up the room. And at the end, give her a hug and say, man, that feels so much better. Doesn't it? By the way, take a picture of the room before and after and put that up on the wall so that your messy kid can visually actually see this is what it looks like. Because they're not naturally always good at what. But right then, instead of standing in the hallway or in the doorway, honey, you know what? No dessert for you until your room's clean. No. That's what we get into now. I just danced or I just had fun with my daughter, and I helped her clean up her room, and I showed her how to do it. And even if I have to do that for the next 12 years, that becomes our bonding time. And then we lay down and we talk, and then she's going to be 15, and she's been like, dad, can we do that, like, bonding? Can we do that, like, music thing? And she'll always love it, and she'll be 35, and she'll say, like, dad, you know what? I remember as a kid when you would come in and dance with me in my room, and I knew you hated Britney Spears or whatever stupid pop music I listened to, but you bonded. And then they'll listen to you. If you bond with them, they will listen to you. But if you're just barking orders, it's just like at work. People leave and work for another company. Yeah.
- [65:59]
Jim Ramos
That's so good, man. Yeah. Remember when we used to dance together, dad? And you're going, yeah, helping you clean your dang room. That's good.
- [66:05]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. And now they've got their own home. Casey lives seven minutes from here. His room was a disaster as a kid. Now, Jim, if you're ever over here and you come along, we'll hike. We'll do a guy hike.
- [66:18]
Jim Ramos
Oh, yeah.
- [66:18]
Kirk Martin
So get in trouble with our wives. And so when you walk in Casey's house, here's what he's gonna say. Got to take off your shoes. And I was like, seriously? Seriously. Like, you never cleaned your entire childhood, and now you want a spotless home? So I intentionally bring some dirt into his room.
- [66:36]
Jim Ramos
Oh, yeah.
- [66:36]
Kirk Martin
Into his house.
- [66:37]
Jim Ramos
Got to rub it in. Literally. That's too.
- [66:39]
Kirk Martin
Man.
- [66:39]
Jim Ramos
I'll tell you what, Kirk. It's always great having you on the show. You've got great resources for our guys. Can you give us some links to your stuff? Where can they get a hold of you, get your material?
- [66:49]
Kirk Martin
Just. The podcast is calm parenting podcast, so you can listen to that. Find that on any platform. Our website is celebrate calm.com. my email's there. Feel free. Email. Tell me you heard me on this podcast. So then I know I can talk to you like a guy like Jim would do.
- [67:07]
Jim Ramos
And.
- [67:08]
Kirk Martin
No, there is a. There is something.
- [67:09]
Jim Ramos
No, there's a DNA there, right? You know how you can address them? You don't have to go, how are you doing as a parent?
- [67:15]
Kirk Martin
Yeah. I talk to you like a guy and like, what are you screwing up with? What do you want to change? Let's roll. And he's like, thanks. That was three. That was three sentences. I'm like, good, because with moms, no offense, moms, because I know some of you are listening. I get, like, nine paragraphs. I really appreciate you sharing your heart. And I have to do a long one with a guy. It's like, hey, dude, cut the crap. Stop doing this thing. It'll be much better. And they're like, got it. But, yeah, reach out to us anytime, and we'll be glad to help you out.
- [67:42]
Jim Ramos
Well, Kirk, it's great, great having you on the show, man. You are pouring so much into our guys, and you are definitely a difference maker. Thanks a lot, man.
- [67:51]
Kirk Martin
Hey, quick thing.
- [67:53]
Jim Ramos
Yep. I've got all day, man.
- [67:54]
Kirk Martin
Follow Jim on Instagram. I don't have. I have Instagram and Jim's the only. Every day it pops up and there's Jim walking through the woods with a dead animal in his hands, giving a pro tip to the men. It's really, really helpful stuff. And you've got a real. I told you before. But I'll tell you in front of the guys.
- [68:11]
Jim Ramos
Yeah.
- [68:11]
Kirk Martin
Has a gift for mentoring, right? Like, you could tell guys anything, and they'd be like, I'll do it. Because of the heart, the pastoral heart you have. So I appreciate what you're doing.
- [68:21]
Jim Ramos
Appreciate that. I will say this. I'm tired of the hobbit comments. I've already made it to Mordor. I don't. I don't need to go to Isengard. I mean, and my feet are not hairy. So just stop teasing me. Find another way to get at me. But the hobbit comments. I'm done.
- [68:37]
Kirk Martin
Okay?
- [68:38]
Jim Ramos
I get all these comments. Are you going to Mordor? Are you a hobbit? I'm like, dude, if guys email me.
- [68:43]
Kirk Martin
And we'll come up with a little campaign to get under Jim's skin.
- [68:46]
Jim Ramos
Yeah. Hashtag, not a hobbit.
- [68:50]
Kirk Martin
That's awesome. Thank you.
- [68:51]
Jim Ramos
Have a great day, Kirk. Guys, as we conclude this podcast, I want to share with you man law number 25 out of the 101 found in my book Man Laws. This is from an unknown source. He says this Never go to the toolbox if your pocket knife will suffice. I could not agree no more. I use my knife every day. I carry it every day and man it's crazy some of the weird things I've used this knife for. So the life rule here guys is always carry a knife or multi tool on your person man. If you haven't done so yet, make sure you subscribe to the Men in the arena podcast. It helps us in our rankings and and it gives you the opportunity to receive our weekly downloads without doing a thing. Until next time. Feel the wet sand on the arena floor. Hear the deafening roar of the crowd. Taste the sweetness of victory. Smell the stench of battle. Get in the game. Get dirty. Grind it out calmly. Parent and be a man.