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- [00:01]
Kirk Martin
Hey moms and dads, don't you just.
- [00:03]
Casey Martin
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- [01:21]
Kirk Martin
So this really nice couple comes up after our live event last night asked this. They said we had $400 bills in a cupboard after selling something and then noticed that three of the bills were missing. Our daughter informed us that she had seen the missing money in our son's room. Now I played like I didn't know. I got down at my son's eye level and I asked him if he had taken the money and he denied it. So I then placed him over my knee to give him a spanking. He confessed and I admit that I was kind of irritated that he lied to my face and that kind of breaks our trust. So I gave him an extra spanking. What would you have done differently in this situation? That is what we're going to discuss on this episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. So welcome. This is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm. You can find us@celebratecalm.com if you need any help. Reach out to Casey, our son, right? He was just like this little guy, right? That the couple was talking about it. C A s e y celebratecalm.com Tell us about your family, ages of the kids. What are you struggling with? We will get back to you. If you ever need help setting up a live event, maybe scheduling a zoom session, phone consultation or with any of our products, just reach out to Casey. He can help you with all of that. He's awesome at it. So a few points come to mind, and I do want to say this. It's 10:54 at night. I'm sitting in a Hampton Inn fitness center room because last night we had this great event. I usually stay around for like a half hour, an hour, however long. Parents stick around and ask me questions and this nice couple come up and I don't feel. I didn't feel like I'd given them the best answer that I could have. And I felt really bad about that all day. So I had a 10 hour drive today and I was kind of formulating this in my head as I was driving and I thought, I need to do this tonight. So if this sounds a little funky, forgive me for that. But I like to record these things while it's top of mind, while I'm passionate about it, while I'm really into it. And I didn't want to be. I asked the front desk, I said, are there people staying in rooms next to me? And she said, yeah. And I said, okay, I don't want to be a jerk and wake them up because, you know, kind of talk.
- [03:37]
Advertiser
A little bit loud.
- [03:37]
Kirk Martin
So I'm actually sitting on a treadmill doing this. So I hope it's worth it and I hope you find this helpful. So a few thoughts come to mind. Number one, I have a distinct bias here. I expect a kid to grab the $100 bills. I don't know if you've ever seen $100 bills, but they're cool looking and it's a lot of money, right? So I'd be. Honestly, I'd be shocked if a kid didn't go for that. And I'd ask you to read history, study human nature. And for my Christian and religious friends out there, actually read what's in those ancient stories. It's a book filled with people who constantly disobey authority figures. They eat from the forbidden tree and then lie and blame others when confronted by the authority figure.
- [04:30]
Listener
Right?
- [04:31]
Kirk Martin
Like she made me do it. And that's just the opening scene. Then you have a brother murdering his brother. And you actually have a series of brothers leaving their brother for dead and lying to their father about it. And another brother deceiving his own brother and his father. You've got a favorite king committing adultery and murder. You've got a father of many nations apparently fathering different children with different women.
- [04:57]
Listener
Right?
- [04:57]
Kirk Martin
You've got drunkenness and incest. So stop acting like, oh, well, if we're a really good family, nobody ever does Anything wrong? It's just not how it works. It's human nature.
- [05:08]
Listener
Right.
- [05:09]
Kirk Martin
So why would this surprise you that a kid stole some tantalizing looking hundred dollar bills? Am I excusing it? Absolutely not. Was it right of him to do it? Absolutely not. I just don't get that worked up about it and make it into this big thing of like, our son's a kleptomaniac and he steals and he has integrity issues. No, stop doing that.
- [05:35]
Listener
Right.
- [05:35]
Kirk Martin
So number two, of course your son lied. It's actually. Look, if you think about it, it's a good sign. It means he has a conscience and he knows he did something wrong. There's no moral ambiguity here. There's no need for a long lecture about stealing. Kids know this from a very early age.
- [05:56]
Listener
Right?
- [05:56]
Kirk Martin
That kid knew when he first set his eyes and fingers on those crisp dollar bills that it was wrong. That's why he hid them in his room. That's why he lied when asked about it, because he knew it was wrong. He didn't want the consequences. He didn't want to get caught disappointing you. He was possibly afraid of your reaction and the consequence you'd give. So he lied right to your face. See, that makes perfect sense to me. And please note this. It's not just that our kids fear the consequences of getting caught. They don't like disappointing us. And they often feel embarrassed and ashamed by their behavior and they want to hide it. Sometimes they just fear the anger. They dread the long lectures that we give. And I'd also realize that direct eye contact can be intimidating. And I want the guys to know this. Sometimes it's just too intense. Sometimes men are just plain intimidating. We are. And look, there's a healthy balance in here, right? There are things that my son would say to his mom that he'd never say to me. Right there just those things happen. And so there is a healthy respect sometimes for, you know, the man, the guy. But see, I want respect. I don't want intimidation. My dad ruled our home and his four boys through fear and intimidation. It's not my goal. I want my son to listen to me because he trusts me and respects me. I don't want him to obey out of obligation or obey out of fear. I want him to listen to me because he respects me and he trusts me. And that's going to be a mindset shift for some of you.
- [07:53]
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- [10:23]
Kirk Martin
So if I'm being honest, here's kind of like third thought. If I'm being honest, your slight game of Gotcha was also kind of dishonest, right? You asked him if he had taken the dollar bills, but you already knew that he did. Unless your daughter's a psychopath who planted the dollar bills in his room to make him look bad. So in a way, what you did was a form of entrapment that didn't need to happen. And this is for all parents. And I do mean this. If you know that your child didn't wash his hands or brush his teeth or do his homework assignment or complete his chore. Stop asking him if he did when you already know he didn't. In some ways it's dishonest. It's not a trustworthy way of handling these situations. You're basically asking your child to lie and then you're gonna ask, but why won't he just tell me the truth?
- [11:15]
Listener
Right?
- [11:16]
Kirk Martin
Well, it is intimidating, right? Do you ever, I mean, ask yourself.
- [11:19]
Casey Martin
Do you ever lie?
- [11:20]
Kirk Martin
Like, even tell a white lie? When confronted with something, especially by a boss or someone bigger than you, like, it's really think it's really hard to look into your mother, mother's or father's eyes and say, I took something that I wasn't supposed to and then I deceived you.
- [11:36]
Listener
Right.
- [11:36]
Kirk Martin
I know we want them to say that, but that's a hard thing to say. Yeah, absolutely. I took that from my brother's room. Yeah, I said that to my brother.
- [11:43]
Listener
Right.
- [11:44]
Kirk Martin
That's hard to do. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, right? But I bet if they could, what they would want to say is, please don't be upset at me, Please don't be disappointed. And sometimes, sometimes they want that more than please don't take things away. Taking things away isn't that big a deal. But it's that emotional thing, it's that lecture, it's the anger that comes. Number four. I'm not going into detail on the issue of spanking in this podcast. I'm just not. I'll just tell you this bluntly. I did this myself when Casey was little. I tried that. I've worked with almost a million families. And I'll say this with 100% conviction. I can give you 10 more effective ways to discipline. And remember, discipline means teach. It doesn't mean to punish. Discipline disciple. I can give you 10 more effective ways to discipline a child than spanking without the potential downsides.
- [12:36]
Listener
Right?
- [12:36]
Kirk Martin
Because in this case, the dad, well meaning dad, did give an extra spanking out of frustration and that's a definite no go. And it's entirely avoidable. In my mind, spanking is simply an unnecessary and ineffective tool to use with a strong willed child. It's just not going to work, right? Because they just don't care. Actually, you know what? That's a false statement. They don't always care about consequences, but they will care about this one because it is more personal and it can be humiliating and I just find it to be unnecessary and Ineffective. And if I can give you 10 better ways to do it that work better, why would we not do that? Right. So. And by the way, I was thinking about this on the drive today. Look what happened. Your son lied to avoid getting spanked for stealing money in the first place, and then he told the truth later to avoid getting spanked.
- [13:37]
Listener
Right?
- [13:37]
Kirk Martin
So the spanking, he actually lied to avoid it. And then later he tried to avoid it by telling the truth and he still got spanked. So there is a better way. Right. So what would I do differently? Here's my favorite option. I'd be direct. I try to find a situation which you're playing catch, you're going for a ride, you're playing with Legos, doing something where there's nothing, you know, big direct eye contact, like, son, we need to sit down and have a talk. Because that puts people on the defensive. And I'd simply say this in the course, just in a casual, direct way. Hey, listen, I know you took those hundred dollar bills from the cupboard. I'm not mad. I'm not angry. I get it. I know that you know that was wrong and that's why you hid the bills. So listen, mom and I have to run to the store for about an hour. When we're gone, just put those bills back where you found them and we won't mention it again. See, now that would be a simple, honest way to deal with it. No. Gotcha. No big dance, no drama. You give him an opportunity to do what's right and make restitution without making it into some big drama, without putting him in a position to lie again, without having to do the walk of shame in front of everyone.
- [14:53]
Listener
Right.
- [14:53]
Kirk Martin
It's kind of a merciful way to handle it. And I know some of you are going to chafe at that. But I guarantee you, and I mean this, you wouldn't want to have your secret adult sins and weaknesses exposed because you have them. Because I'm a man and I know this. You and I have secret stuff, right, that we struggle with in our adult life. You wouldn't want to have that exposed in front of your family or friends and have to answer for it all the time. You'd be embarrassed and you'd be ashamed. True. So when you come home from the grocery store, wherever you're going, and you see the money back there, do not make a big deal out of it. No big praise. Look, he simply. Your son, in many ways, did what was expected of him. Both times he took the shiny dollar bills. I kind of Expect that. And then he put them back. And that's what was expected because that was the right thing to do. And you're not raising a sociopath. You're just raising a little impulsive kid. So maybe just a little fist bump in passing and then move on with your day. See, that promotes trust. Because now he can trust that you are not going to freak out when he does tell you the truth. You don't escalate something normal into some major issue, wring your hands and lecturing endlessly about integrity and trust. And we can't none of that right now. Separately, here's what else I would begin doing with your child. And I want this to be kind of separate from the incident, but I would begin practicing some new skills. And we did this in our home. It's dorky, it's uncomfortable at times, but we would role play. Why? Because role play is practicing new skills and behavior. So your son, your daughters, they need to practice verbally saying, hey, mom, dad, I did that. I apologize. I was wrong. I took the money, I didn't do my assignment, I didn't do my chores. Have them practice it. Then you need to practice not overreacting, not grimacing and not lecturing. Lecturing is not teaching, usually. Lecturing is usually shaming, and it's usually provoking your child to anger. So here's a cool script that I would start to enact. Hey, son, daughter. I realize that sometimes I make it difficult for you to tell me the truth. I can be kind of intimidating, scary at times. Sometimes I yell, I shake my head, I grimace, I lecture, and I make you feel ashamed. So I want to practice learning how to respond better when you do tell me hard things. So can we practice this? And I want him, like I said, verbally practicing using the words, mom, dad, I didn't do my chores. I did take that money, I didn't brush my teeth. Lied to you. And then you practice saying, you know what? That takes courage. I'm proud of you for telling me the truth. So what are we going to do to fix this situation now? Is there anything I can do to help you? See, that's how it should work. They come to you and tell you something instead of, I can't believe that you would do that instead. Instead of like, that took courage. That was really cool. I like how you handle that. So we've got this situation. Now what are we going to do to fix it? Now I'm problem solving. There's no need to go on and on. And I would role Play that. I would practice verbalizing this so they just get to say it out loud. And you practice responding in stride again without overreacting, creating drama or an anguished face. Think about this. I want you to make it easy for your kids to come boldly to ask for grace and help in time of need. Instead of being afraid, instead of being tentative that you're going to be mad, right? For my religious friends, very, very, very important. If you want your kids to trust, to be able to trust God, then they've got to be able to trust you. But if you're kind of scary and intimidating and give them shame, guess how they're going to picture God, right? I want them to be able to come to you and say, hey, Pop, I write to your face. And you'd be like, yeah, I know, I know, it's nothing new. So what are we going to do about that? And look, I'll add something here that I hadn't thought about in a little while. Our kids oftentimes, if you say, hey, so what do you think the consequence should be for lying or for taking that? They'll often choose a more difficult consequence. Is that not true? So put it in their court instead of making this. This like, we create this us versus them dynamic, right? I'm telling you, many of you. Many of us, Many of. I wasn't going to say you people, many of us, right? People of faith make this, make faith stuff a thing of like, us versus them both in society. It's like God versus us. And then we wonder why people don't want to be part of it. Because it's not pleasant. It's just always conflict all the time and it's shame. So they will choose a more difficult consequence sometimes. So let's make it more about problem solving. So here's another idea. You could actually have a predetermined code word or routine. So if your child comes and says, hey, mom, dad, are you going to throw the football with me? Or you go for a walk or you go grab a slice of pizza, or will you, mom, will you paint your nails with me? Maybe that's a sign that they want to talk to you. And it lets you both know, like, oh, we're going to talk about something of consequence here. So I've got to be ready so I don't overreact. And in this situation that just happened, you could even, you could prompt it and say, hey, think it'd be a good time to go out and play catch? Hey, honey, you want to go get the Nail polish out, right? And that's it. It's a prompt to do something together where you're both relaxed and it's free of drama. So I'd like you to have this in place especially for the teen years when your kids are going to need to talk about deep stuff and tough issues of great importance without being afraid of your reaction. So final thought. The way we typically handle this, there are still these overriding feelings of shame and distrust, trust and worry, fear hanging over everyone.
- [21:34]
Listener
Right?
- [21:34]
Kirk Martin
It creates this whole, like, icky feeling over it. And I don't think that has to be that way. It's not healthy. And that doesn't inspire a kid to be open and honest.
- [21:44]
Listener
Right.
- [21:44]
Kirk Martin
The shaming, the spanking, the anger can actually create a dynamic in which kids are more likely to just get better at sneaking, hiding, deceiving, and lying. So rather than put all the onus on the child to create trust, I want to take the lead on creating trust. You know why? Because I'm the adult. It's my job. I want to demonstrate very clearly and consistently to my child, you can trust me. You can trust that I won't shame and get angry and lecture. So it's safe to come to me and tell me anything. That is a higher form of discipline because that shifts it from being about changing behavior to being based on a two way trusting relationship. That's what I'm after. So let's practice this. Moms and dads, let's break those old patterns you've got. You and I have all these old patterns. Like, well, it's just the way we did it as kids. And this is the way I've always wanted to do it. They're not working with this kid. The relationship is strained and broken. So let's break those old patterns. Let's create new ones. It's so cool when you do this. And I promise it's hard at first, but once you start doing, it gets easier and easier. So if you need help with this, reach out to Casey. Go through the calm parenting package. Actually, you know what? Get the. Get everything packaged. You know why? It has everything. We have created well over 30 hours of materials, written materials. It's got the no BS program, which is 25 specific action steps to rebuild your relationship, which would be perfect in this situation. Go through that, and I'm not going to apologize. Make the investment in it. If you need help financially, reach out to Casey. We literally help everyone who asks for it. But for some of you, it's just, it's a sign of. I'm going to make the investment. I'm going to put the time into this and we're going to go through this and we're going to make changes that last. You're talking about lifetime and generational patterns being broken. Anyway, thank you for that. I hope that was found that helpful and I didn't wake anybody else up in this meeting room here. Thanks. Love you all. Talk to you soon. Bye.