Why Your Child’s Fierce Autonomy is Good & How to Get Husbands/Siblings To Understand #583

Summary

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Calm Parenting Podcast Episode #583

Episode Title: Why Your Child’s Fierce Autonomy is Good & How to Get Husbands/Siblings To Understand
Host: Kirk Martin
Date: April 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and heartfelt episode, Kirk Martin digs into the misunderstood world of strong-willed and PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) kids. He reframes fierce autonomy as a virtue, not a vice, and offers practical strategies for fostering independence while strengthening family understanding. Kirk also addresses the challenge of getting spouses and siblings on board, underlining the importance of parental self-awareness and collaboration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Fierce Autonomy Should Be Celebrated

• Main Point: Society often labels strong-willed, autonomous kids as defiant, rebellious, or demand-avoidant. Kirk reframes these behaviors as strengths that, when guided with respect, help raise responsible adults.

  • “Our goal is not really to raise obedient or compliant kids…but responsible kids.” (03:45)

• Personal Reflection: Kirk shares how his own son Casey was rarely obedient outwardly, but always responsible when it truly mattered.

  • “If you just give him a mission and say, ‘I don’t care how you get it done, just take care of it,’ he does. And that’s an extremely valuable trait.” (05:22)

• Thought Experiment: Kirk prompts parents to consider the risks of raising only compliant kids versus autonomous ones, highlighting the potential for compliant individuals to be taken advantage of.

  • “Are some of these kids or adults…in danger of being taken advantage of or used by others? Absolutely.” (07:10)

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2. Understanding the Internal World of Strong-Willed Kids

• Autonomy = Integrity: For many kids, Kirk explains, autonomy is woven into their identity—it’s as fundamental as integrity to a parent.

  • “Your kids don’t care that much about losing things. They just don’t want to lose their autonomy. For some of you, that would be like losing your integrity. It’s part of your identity and your soul.” (10:14)

• Learning by Struggle: These children extract meaning from wrestling with challenges, not taking shortcuts, even if it means longer, harder paths.

  • “The aggravation is part of the process. I wouldn’t call it joy, but I call it meaning and satisfaction.” (13:50)

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3. Real-Life Example: Letting Autonomy Lead to Growth (Daniel and Golf)

• Story Summary: Daniel, a naturally good golfer, struggles with his swing. Despite his mom’s anxiety and eagerness to help, Daniel insists on solving the issue himself. When given space, he figures it out and shares his solution with pride.

  • “Daniel wants no part of your help. He wants to practice his swing and make adjustments…and then try again…until he finally, finally figures out what he’s doing wrong.” (12:16)

• Parental Strategy: Mom learns to manage her anxiety, avoids interfering, and focuses on her own activities instead.

  • “She goes and focuses on improving her game on the putting green…You lead by example, and you give these kids space.” (13:00)

• Outcome: Daniel derives deep satisfaction from self-discovery—something that no shortcut could have delivered.

  • “Once they figure it out, it brings an immense amount of internal satisfaction and pride and confidence.” (14:25)

• Key Quote:

  • “Sometimes by accommodating our kids, we are actually satisfying our own need for comfort while robbing our kids of the internal satisfaction that comes from doing something hard and meaningful.” (15:12)

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4. Bridging the Gap with Spouses and Siblings

• Understanding Spousal Resistance: Many fathers, Kirk notes, feel disconnected or frustrated by “too many accommodations” or what seems like letting a child “get away” with things, sometimes due to their own experiences growing up.

  • “Many men just get flustered and say things like, ‘Well, you just can’t let them get away with everything.’…in reality, many men have experienced what Daniel just experienced.” (18:34)

• Inviting Collaboration: Kirk suggests sharing these insights and examples with a spouse to open new lines of communication and encourage mutual understanding.

  • “Maybe you can both humble yourselves and apologize for not really understanding each other’s intentions—because it makes a huge difference.” (19:45)

• Sibling Perspective: Explaining the reasons behind different accommodations to siblings can help them better understand their brother or sister—and themselves.

  • “If they are the generally compliant types who can be vulnerable to falling into the trap of people pleasing…then you can work with them on learning how to say no and being assertive about their own needs.” (21:15)

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5. Self-Awareness & Course Correction

• Focus on Parental Growth: Kirk emphasizes that true parenting growth happens when parents develop self-awareness—not just when ‘fixing’ kids.

  • “This isn’t really about parenting kids anyway. It’s about all of us gaining self-awareness and learning new skills so we can grow up and have healthier relationships ourselves.” (22:45)

• On Apologies: If appropriate, Kirk recommends a succinct apology to your child for misunderstanding their motivations—then, course correct through action, not repeated apologies.

  • “The best apology is just course correcting and changing so you don’t have to keep apologizing.” (24:52)

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6. Shifting the Narrative & Building Confidence

• Reframe Resistance: Turn complaints about non-compliance into recognition of a child’s perseverance and independent problem-solving.

  • “Instead of the narrative always being, ‘Why won’t they ever listen? Why are they so resistant to being taught?’—Why don’t we say this: ‘I love my child’s independence…I admire that.’” (25:12)

• Parent Testimonial: Kirk shares a listener email describing how, after apologizing for too many accommodations, their son felt “noticed for how hard he works to build complex projects and buildings.” (26:10)

• Building Confidence:

  • “See, when we do that with our kid…like: ‘You just spent 90 minutes working on your swing—problem solving—man, I love that quality in you.’ It builds confidence. You’re communicating: ‘I believe you’re capable of doing hard things because I’ve seen you do hard things.’” (26:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Raising Responsible Kids:

  • “Our goal is not really to raise obedient or compliant kids…but responsible kids.” (03:45)

• On Internal Satisfaction:

  • “The aggravation is part of the process. I wouldn’t call it joy, but I call it meaning and satisfaction.” (13:50)

• On Parental Anxiety:

  • “Sometimes by accommodating our kids, we are actually satisfying our own need for comfort while robbing our kids of the internal satisfaction that comes from doing something hard and meaningful.” (15:12)

• On Sibling & Spouse Dynamics:

  • “Maybe you can both humble yourselves and apologize for not really understanding each other’s intentions—because it makes a huge difference.” (19:45)

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Actionable Takeaways

• Give strong-willed kids the space to figure things out, even if it means watching them take the slow, hard road.
• Support autonomy by focusing on your own growth as a parent and resisting the urge to rescue or ‘fix.’
• Communicate openly with spouses and siblings about family dynamics and parenting approaches to foster mutual understanding.
• When appropriate, apologize succinctly to your child for misunderstandings, then make positive changes.
• Celebrate your child’s hard work and resourcefulness, even when it comes through resistance or struggle.

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For resources, further learning, or support, Kirk invites listeners to visit CelebrateCalm.com and explore the PDA Parent Program.

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Host’s Closing Thought:
“I have so much respect for you. Love you. If we can help you in any way, reach out…Listening is all that matters to me and I hope it helps your family. All right, love you all. Bye bye.” (26:58)

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Transcript

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If you misunderstand what really motivates your kids and their need for autonomy, it will provoke even more fierce defiance, pain and pushback. So I want to show you exactly how to help kids who don't always want to be helped. I want to show you how to help siblings who may not understand why you give your child accommodations and also help a spouse who is reluctant and just thinks you're letting your child get away with things. So that is what we're going to discuss on this special episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. I'm going to pull some examples and excerpts from our PDA Parent Program program to use as examples here. PDA is very different from just being a strong willed child. They're not the same, but there is some overlap and we can use some principles and strategies that work with PDA kids for our other kids. And it's important to note that so much of this has nothing to do with the child and much to do with our own response as parents. No matter what your child is like. And if you're interested in PDA, you can go to celebratecalm.com PDA just look for the PDA tab. I've got a bunch of separate podcasts there entire program and we also have our spring sale going on there. So I do think we often misunderstand our kids. Most of society punishes these kids because they do desire autonomy. They want to do their things their own way. They they need to touch that hot stove. And I personally think the drive for autonomy is a net positive. It's what we should be cultivating in our kids, obviously with clear boundaries and respect. Our goal is not really to raise obedient or compliant kids or childs, but responsible kids. Look, our son Casey was rarely easy, frequently argumentative, virtually never obedient outwardly. But he was always responsible when it mattered. And he is to this day. That's why he's a very reliable person. If he says he's going to do something, he does it. If you just give him a mission and say don't care how you get it done, just take care of it, he does. And that's an extremely valuable trait. So we're ultimately raising our kids to grow and mature into humans who are who can make their own choices, be responsible for their decisions and lead others. I'll just give you some perspective, encouragement. Since I'm older guy with a grown son. Two of my favorite qualities that Casey possesses to this day are these. Right? If I call Casey and I'll say, case, I've got this idea, you know, something to do with the business or something else. He just always tells me the truth. Hey, dad, that's a really dumb idea. And I appreciate the bluntness. If I ask him why, I get a very detailed, thoughtful, well reasoned explanation with bullet points. He's not doing it to prove his point. He's doing it because he genuinely cares about me and also thinks my ideas are stupid sometimes. So that's just who he is. It's who he's always been. And sometimes we're like, well, that was rude. And it's like, no, he, he was just being honest. I asked his opinion and he knows in different situations not to always be that blunt with other people. I also love that if Casey is into something he's passionate about, whether that's his other work or ski mountaineering or being a good friend or cooking for us or taking me on a hiking trip, I never have to worry about him being prepared and conscientious. He is 120% all over every detail. He's thought through all the possibilities from different angles. Angles. He's prepared for emergencies. He knows how to stay calm and be decisive under pressure. It's pretty amazing because I'm not always like that. But I can't say the same thing about him not leaving lights on in his house. So I'm constantly over there and I'll be like, why are the lights on? It's the thing that I got from my dad, but guess what? Not my electricity bill. But I do go around and I turn the lights off. So quick thought experiment. It's very easy to label more strong willed and PDA kids as defiant and rebellious. But what about the kids who never say no to demands or accept even arbitrary expectations as legitimate? Are some of these kids or adults, if you're like that, in danger of being taken advantage of or used by others? Absolutely. You know, threw this thought in there as well. You know, we get on our kids who push back all the time, but you know what? Oftentimes they're pushing back against arbitrary standards that don't matter. And the real issue is that there have been millions or billions of compliant people that came before them who just said, oh, I'll take that. And they establish that arbitrary standard as a norm when they should have pushed back. But then our kids come along and they have the courage and the intelligence to say, hey, that's actually not very important. And they push back. And then they get in trouble for doing what other people should have. And I'll tell you, with our PDA kids, I think I put this in one of the first PDA parent podcasts that I did. Some of our kids are angry. You know why? Because they're pushing back. Because we didn't have the courage to do so. Some of us as parents didn't have the courage to push back on arbitrary things in school or in churches. And then our kids come along, they're like, why didn't you do this? You knew better and you didn't have the courage. So just something to think about. And I know in balance, our kids can be tough. Sometimes they're enigmas. They want desperately to do things their way, even if that makes it harder, even if that path is less traveled. How many of you have kids who will choose the path with the harsh consequences rather than just doing what you ask? They've got to touch that hot stove. It's part of the learning process. Your kids don't care that much about losing things. They just don't want to lose their autonomy. For some of you, that would be like losing your integrity. It's part of your identity and your soul. Well, that's what autonomy feels like for our kids. It's not about being self centered or selfish and rebellious. Look, I only feel rebellious or angry when I'm being pressured to conform or give up my independence. I know this is hard to understand for those of you who are not like this, but I'm very content and happy when I'm allowed to pursue what intrigues and makes me curious. I'm not out looking for a fight or I'm not wanting to tell other people what to do. I just want to be left alone and. And not have arbitrary expectations placed on me or that impede my pursuit. And I know you love your kids and inside you're screaming to them, please let me show you how to do this a different way. That's faster, easier, more effective, and that won't hurt you. Your intentions are noble, but they will fall on deaf ears because our kids and kids with PDA do not care about doing things faster, easier, or your way. They want to tinker with things. They want to see how they work. They want to come up with the answers themselves. And I think you'll find this real life example helpful. And look, it's advantageous it's what we ultimately want. So Daniel's mom signs him up for golf. Nice individual sport, which, you'll notice a lot of our kids gravitate toward individual sports. Why? Well, they don't have to listen to some coach go on and on. They don't have to stand in line. They don't have to compete with other kids on a team. It's theirs. They determine solely by their own effort how well they do at rock climbing or gymnastics, whatever it is. So Daniel is actually pretty good naturally at golf, and he wants to make the high school golf team, but he slices the ball a lot. And mom is at the golf range, and she can see what Daniel is doing wrong very clearly. She sees it. She offers to help. Only her offer sounds like she's insisting because it's laced with her reasonable anxiety. These kids, they pick up on that anxiety, right? Like, and here's what the mom's thinking. I can see so clearly how to help my son. I know he really wants to make the team, and I can help him. If he doesn't fix this slice, he'll be incredibly disappointed. And I don't want to see him sad and dejected and rejected from the team. Plus, if he makes a team, he'd finally be on a team with some other kids. Plus, I pay a lot of money and I invest a lot of time in golf for him. I mean, a little gratitude and willingness to let me help seems reasonable. Yes, it would be reasonable for most other kids, but. But Daniel and our kids. Daniel wants no part of your help. He wants to practice his swing and make adjustments and get frustrated and drive his driver into the grass and then try again until he finally, finally figures out what he's doing wrong. Now, some older guy may even walk by, make one small comment in passing like, hey, move your hips forward. And he'll listen to that. Because our kids often listen to other adults, not us. So mom, to her credit, controls her own anxiety. She goes and focuses on improving her game on the putting green. That's a huge part of this. Like with food. Stop paying so much attention to what your kids are eating and just focus on what you're eating. You lead by example, and you give these kids space. So she leaves and she says, hey, honey, I know you'll figure this out. Now, does she really believe that? Not sure. But she gives them space to tinker and experiment and fail without being watched. It may be 90 minutes later, and Daniel finds her in the clubhouse having a drink. I'm kidding. But Daniel finds her on the putting grain and says excitedly, mom, I want to show you something. And then Daniel proceeds to excitedly show her the adjustments he made to his swing. Now, inside, she's thinking, I could have told you that in three minutes and saved you all that aggravation. But we're missing the point here. The aggravation is part of the process. I wouldn't call it joy, but I call it meaning and satisfaction. See, these kids derive meaning from the struggle. Not struggling with homework or things they don't care about, but the struggle from problem solving with things they care about, from wrestling with the issue and running it through their brains and seeing patterns and putting it all together. Because once they figure it out, it brings an immense amount of internal satisfaction and pride and confidence. See, that is demanding. That's why I hate that we say these kids have demand avoidance and need accommodations all the time. That's not what just happened on that golf course driving range. That was a young man who demanded a lot of himself in that moment. He was mentally grinding those gears, intensely focused on problem solving. He was being emotionally vulnerable. And we miss that. See, if he didn't figure out his swing, he would have failed and possibly beaten himself up. Maybe he would have had to ask for help. And that's hard. It requires something deeper of you when you do that. And he did that. He was man. This is such an important point. He just rejected the external pressure and demand so that he could revel in the greater internal satisfaction from his own autonomy and problem solving. I hope you can see that sometimes by accommodating our kids, we are actually satisfying our own need for comfort while robbing our kids of the internal satisfaction that comes from doing something hard and meaningful. And I want you to let that sit for a moment. I don't want to rush past that. 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Just take a few hours or the rest of the day or maybe a couple days to kind of meditate on this idea. I'd encourage you share this with your spouse. And I'm just going to make some assumptions here. Forgive me if I'm wrong. There are a lot of men who feel shut out of parenting a strong willed child and especially a PDA child because they're just too rigid and immature. That's actually not what I was going to say at first, but it's kind of true because I was. That I was always rigid and immature. Well, that's. He just needs to get with the program. I don't need to do this. But here's the truth. Also. Many men feel shut out of parenting because many of us have. Men have experienced what I just described above with Daniel in their own lives. And so something about all these accommodations and just letting the child decide what they're going to do has rubbed them the wrong way, but they haven't been able to verbalize what it is that really bugs them. So many men just get flustered and say things like, well, you just can't let them get away with everything. And oftentimes we, as the more empathetic or understanding ones, have attributed that to them just being inflexible and judgmental and rigid. And sometimes that's true, when in reality, many men have experienced what Daniel just experienced in that example above. So I encourage you share this with your spouse and ask, hey, could you just listen to this one? If you have our program, just listen to this one track where you can say, listen to this one podcast. Let me know if this explains what you feel inside about our child and our parenting. See, it may open up a new conversation and invite your spouse back into the process. Maybe you can both humble yourselves and apologize for not really understanding each other's intentions because it makes a huge difference. If one of you can say, you know what? I just didn't understand. I've been a little bit too rigid, I know I pushed too much, that's not working. And the other one can say, you know what, you know, I think I'm caught up in a little bit of an anxiety loop with our child and giving too many accommodations, and that's not good either. See, now you can come out, you can support each other as you find a balance. That would be incredibly helpful. And if you have a reluctant husband, that may get him to listen to more of the program and get on board because he's like, oh, see, I could handle that situation with Daniel like that and I could identify with him because that's how I see the world. I would also consider asking your child if this is how they view the world and their place in it. Can you relate to this example? Right, ask them. They need to feel understood. They also need to understand themselves, that there's nothing wrong with them, that they're not demand avoidant, but they actually place great demands on themselves and it's a good quality that they want to figure it out themselves and expend all of that emotional effort and be vulnerable. I didn't realize a lot of things about myself like this until I was well into my 30s and even 40s, and I'm still unpacking insights from five decades into my life. Now, down the road, after you've gone through the entire program, if you have, you may consider letting your other Kids listen to particular parts of it. Why? So they can understand why their brother or sister does things a certain way. It will also give them insight into themselves. And if they are the generally compliant types who can be vulnerable to falling into the trap of people pleasing and doing things so others will be happy, well, then you can work with them on learning how to say no and being assertive about their own needs. See, for some of your kids, that's one of the most important things they need to learn in their childhood is, hey, I deserve better. It's okay for me to say no. This is a huge one and I've struggled with this one. It's okay for me to say no even if I disappoint someone else. Oh, because does that mean they're going to be mad at me? How many of you have been tripped up like that? So look, this is about all of us growing together. The mom and dad each have to grow in different ways. The child with PDA has to grow. The more compliant kids, we all need to grow. So look, this isn't really about parenting kids anyway. It's about all of us gaining self awareness and learning new skills so we can grow up and have healthier relationships ourselves, ourselves and with others. Right, with ourselves and others. So this could change the entire family dynamic over time. Now, if you think it necessary or appropriate, you could apologize to your child and simply say, hey, I'm sorry, I've misunderstood your motivations. That's it. You don't have to go on and on and explain things. An apology is just a statement of fact. Hey, I've misunderstood you and I'm sorry for you for that. Honest and concise. Don't apologize over and over again. That becomes annoying and it puts pressure on your child to constantly forgive you or say it's okay. The best apology is just course correcting and changing so you don't have to keep apologizing. Spend some time running through scenarios like the above that happen in your home. What has caused you in the past to act out of your own anxiety or discomfort? Do you have control issues? Yes, you do. We all do. What has the result been? There's no blame, no guilt, no judgment. It's just assessing the situation. Now, what can you do differently next time? Like this, mom, who said, hey, I'm going to give you some space and time to figure this out and I'm going to focus on my life and improving my golf swing and I'm going to focus on eating what's healthy for me. See, that's What I ultimately want to help you out with throughout this program. Now that feels kind of exhausting even from here. So couple more quick examples. Instead of the narrative always being, why won't they ever listen? Why are they so resistant to listening or being taught? Why don't we say this? Look, I love my child's independence. I love their willingness to learn the hard way. When my child puts his or her mind to something, oh, nothing stops them from learning how to do it. My child refuses to take the easy path and insists on the harder path, making his or her own way and path. I admire that. Now, I know that's hard, but our kids, man, would you can get behind that. It is so cool. So I just got another email from a couple. They're going through the PDA parent program saying we think we may have shot ourselves in the foot a bit by giving our child too many accommodations and communicating that he's not capable. Now, I do not want you feeling bad about that or blaming yourself. You all are kind hearted parents doing your best in the moment when you encounter a child whose nervous system is on high alert. This is hard. So this couple did apologize to their son and they've been planting seeds about all the way. This child has actually been very demanding on himself. And they said last night he told us that for the first time he feels like someone has noticed how hard he works to build complex projects and buildings. See, when we do that with our kid, like Daniel of like, you know what, that was cool. You could have taken the easy way out, but you just spent 90 minutes working on your swing. Problem solving, man, I love that quality in you. See, that builds confidence. You're communicating. I believe you're capable of doing hard things. You know why? Because I've seen you do hard things. When you create your own music compositions. When you build things. That's so cool. So moms and dads, I have so much respect for you. Love you. If we can help you in any way, reach out to caseyelebratecolm.com if you're interested in the PDA parent program, go to celebratecalm.com you'll see the PDA tab or our regular programs. Thank you for listening to the podcast. I do ask you if you don't mind. I've never done this before. If you enjoy this, give it a five star rating. It helps more people find it and that's a way to support us here. But you don't owe me any support, by the way. You owe me nothing. I love this and I just appreciate you. Listening is all that matters to me and I hope it helps your family. All right, love you all. Bye bye.

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