Alien Science: UFO Encounters Precognitive Dreams, Telepathy Tapes | Kelly Chase & Jay King

Summary

Camp Gagnon: Episode Summary – "Alien Science: UFO Encounters Precognitive Dreams, Telepathy Tapes | Kelly Chase & Jay King"

Introduction to the Episode and Guests

In this captivating episode of Camp Gagnon, host Mark Gagnon delves deep into the enigmatic world of UFO phenomena, consciousness, and anomalous experiences. The episode features two distinguished guests: Kelly Chase, a renowned UFO researcher and experiencer, and Jay King, a seasoned participant in the show's discussions. Additionally, Pat Price, director of the Experiencer Group, joins the conversation, enriching the dialogue with his extensive knowledge on remote viewing and telepathy.

Kelly Chase's Personal UFO Sighting and Journey

Kelly Chase shares her early experiences with UFOs, highlighting a pivotal sighting from her childhood. At approximately 13 years old, while at the Outer Banks in North Carolina, Kelly observed a UFO that exhibited erratic movements unlike any conventional aircraft ([10:27] Kelly Chase). This sighting planted the seeds for her later obsession with uncovering the truth behind UFO phenomena.

The Profound Anomalous Experience and Consciousness Shift

Kelly recounts a transformative event that altered her worldview irrevocably. In 2021, amidst her intensive UFO research, Kelly experienced what she describes as the most profound anomalous experience of her life. While sitting in her room, immersed in her studies, she felt as though she transcended time, gaining simultaneous insights into her life, the planet, and the universe ([05:13] Kelly Chase). This experience was marked by an overwhelming sense of love and understanding, leading her to embrace spirituality after years of atheism. The encounter left her feeling directed towards her purpose of starting the podcast, fundamentally changing her perception of reality ([10:27] Kelly Chase).

Telepathy Tapes and Historical Military Remote Viewing

The conversation shifts to the intriguing topic of telepathy tapes and their historical applications in military operations. Pat Price introduces Pat Price, a documented remote viewer involved with the CIA's remote viewing programs. He emphasizes the potential of telepathy and remote viewing as challenges to our understanding of consciousness and reality ([00:45] J. King; [00:53] Pat Price). The discussion touches upon the CIA's investment in such programs and how individuals like Pat Price contributed to these clandestine efforts.

Integrating Anomalous Experiences and Religion/Spirituality

Kelly delves into the interplay between her UFO experiences and spirituality. She articulates the mistake of separating UFO phenomena from religious and spiritual contexts, arguing that there are direct parallels between mystical experiences and anomalous UFO encounters ([00:33] Kelly Chase). This integration is further explored through her relationship with Jay King and other experiencers, highlighting the communal aspect of understanding and processing these profound events.

Connection to Remote Viewing and Government Programs

The episode explores the connection between remote viewing practices and government initiatives. Pat Price elaborates on historical programs like the Stanford Research Institute's remote viewing projects and their implications ([75:08] Pat Price). The discussion references notable figures such as Cal Puthoff and Russell Targ, who were pivotal in advancing these studies. Kelly shares a compelling story about Tom Matt, a former addict who developed unique remote viewing abilities, underscoring the blurred lines between mental health and anomalous capacities ([42:19] Kelly Chase).

Discussion on Consciousness and Anomalies

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the nature of consciousness and its relation to anomalous experiences. Kelly posits that consciousness is a cosmic, non-local entity that transcends our physical existence, suggesting that our perceptions are mere filtered versions of a more profound reality ([103:32] Kelly Chase). Pat Price and Jay King contribute by discussing theories that consciousness interacts with a universal field, enabling phenomena like telepathy, precognition, and remote viewing.

Recent Drone Sightings in New Jersey

Towards the latter part of the episode, the focus shifts to contemporary UFO sightings, specifically the surge of drone-like observations in New Jersey. Pat Price recounts personal encounters with large, unconventional drones that lacked typical identification markers ([126:50] Pat Price). The guests speculate on various explanations, ranging from advanced military technology and foreign government surveillance to potential extraterrestrial involvement. Kelly suggests that these sightings might be part of a broader agenda to acclimate the public to unprecedented aerial phenomena ([132:46] Kelly Chase).

Final Thoughts and Conclusion

In wrapping up, the guests reflect on the transformative impact of anomalous experiences on their lives and the broader implications for humanity's understanding of consciousness and reality. Kelly emphasizes the importance of embracing these experiences openly to foster greater empathy and interconnectedness among individuals ([97:20] Pat Price). Mark Gagnon encourages listeners to explore these mysteries further through resources like the Cosmosis series, advocating for a more inclusive and multifaceted approach to studying UFO phenomena.

Notable Quotes

• Kelly Chase [00:00]: "I had probably the most profound, anomalous experience of my life. I was changed."

• Kelly Chase [00:33]: "People really want to separate this stuff from religion and from spirituality, and I think that's a mistake."

• Kelly Chase [05:13]: "I had started hearing these stories in the news about UFOs, and I was like, this week that I'm at the beach, I'm going to figure this UFO thing out."

• Pat Price [00:53]: "There's a guy named Pat Price. He was one of the most gifted remote viewers that anybody's ever documented."

• Kelly Chase [22:38]: "It was extremely benevolent, and it felt ancient, and it felt like somebody very familiar to me."

• Kelly Chase [103:32]: "I have this kind of understanding that consciousness is somehow cosmic, that it's beyond us, that what we're experiencing here is some sort of filtered down version of ultimate reality."

Conclusion

This episode of Camp Gagnon offers a deep dive into the intersections of UFO phenomena, consciousness studies, and personal transformation. Through the insightful narratives of Kelly Chase and the expertise of Pat Price, listeners are invited to explore complex questions about the nature of reality, the potential for remote viewing, and the profound impact of anomalous experiences on individual lives. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, this episode provides a thought-provoking exploration of some of the most intriguing mysteries of our time.

Transcript

[Kelly Chase]

I had probably the most profound, anomalous experience of my life. I was changed.

[J. King]

This is Kelly Chase. She's a UFO researcher and experiencer, and she's joined by friend of the show J. King. And today she will explain her experience with an unknown entity.

[Kelly Chase]

All of a sudden, I felt like I was almost outside of time and I could see and understand a lot of things at once and that I was shown a lot of things at once.

[J. King]

How the UFO phenomena might not actually be aliens traveling here from other planets, but rather some type of challenge to our understanding, consciousness and reality.

[Kelly Chase]

And I think that people really want to separate this stuff from religion and from spirituality, and I think that's a mistake. There's direct parallels between spiritual and mystical experiences and these sort of anomalous experiences that people have.

[J. King]

And lastly, we discussed the extremely popular telepathy tapes and the historical use of telepathy in remote viewing in military operations.

[Pat Price]

There's a guy named Pat Price. He was one of the most gifted remote viewers that anybody's ever documented.

[J. King]

Was he utilized by government agencies?

[Pat Price]

Yes, the CIA was very involved.

[J. King]

This episode is out. Absolutely fascinating. Obviously, you know Jay, he's been on the show a bunch of times. And Kelly brings a brand new fresh perspective to the UFO phenomena that I find really interesting that it has less to do with space travel, but more to do with maybe something happening with our consciousness. Anyway, there's more to that to discuss. Tune in, zip up your tents, and welcome to camp. What's up, everybody? And welcome back to camp. This is the show where we explain the most interesting, fascinating, and unexplained phenomenon in the entire universe. And today, I have before me the unexplained in the flesh. I have my dear friend Jay King, and most importantly, my new friend, Kelly Chase. How are you?

[Kelly Chase]

So great. So glad to be here.

[J. King]

Absolutely. This is gonna be a lot of fun. I just watched episode one of Cosmosis, the series that is now on Apple TV as well as YouTube, is actually where I purchased it and Amazon and a bunch of other places. I think it is a fascinating introduction to understanding the current state of, I guess, UFO affairs. Like, if you don't know anything about this, if you don't understand uap, if you're like just a casual. You're like, I've seen these drones over Jersey. And I don't. This is all very strange. Watching that series I got halfway through episode two gets you up to speed. You're just like, hey, here's everything that's going on. Here are some of the Major theories that are happening. And here are all the major players in the current space that can, you know, explain the phenomenon up to this point. So excellent job. It was really, really good. How much time went into making this? 10 years in the making.

[Kelly Chase]

Just like all of 18 months. Just every. We. Every last drop out of those 18 months, I think.

[Pat Price]

Yeah, it was quite the journey. Yeah. But 18 months about start to finish for that season, and we've already got plans for future seasons, but it just dropped on December 30, and as of the next day. We did this independently, by the way, this is completely independent production.

[J. King]

Oh, really?

[Pat Price]

Yeah, we put together a production company just to do this and other related projects, but we did it because we wanted nobody telling us what the to do and what to say. And it seemed really important to us. I mean, Kelly, I'd love to hear your perspective, but to not have filters, to not, like, dumb down the conversation and to really get to a far place.

[J. King]

Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating.

[Pat Price]

Anything you want to say about that, Kelly?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, I mean, I just think it was. It was a crazy process. As Jay says. You know, we do these things not because they are easy, but because we didn't know how hard they would be.

[J. King]

By Jay, you mean John of Canada? That j. That Jay.

[Pat Price]

Him too.

[J. King]

He was chopping up. Yeah. So annoying, this guy.

[Pat Price]

Right.

[Kelly Chase]

But we're really proud of it. And, you know, we did try to go to a place that was deep enough for the people, the UFO faithful, to find something new and to find some real value in it, to get excited about it and to bring some new voices to the table. But we really did want it to be something for, like, if you don't know anything about this at all, you can start on episode one and you can really get into the deep end in just a few episodes.

[J. King]

Yeah, absolutely. So I definitely recommend people go check it out to get up to speed. Your story, Kelly, is very interesting, Jay. Obviously, as we've spoken before, you've been on the program a couple times. I'm sure the audience is familiar, but you've had experiences with, and we'll kind of use a couple different blanket terms here, high strangeness, the phenomena, uap, aliens, grays, whatever that may be. Demons. Perhaps we can discuss that. You've had experiences of these things for a long time, since you were a little kid. You've had bizarre things that have happened that we've detailed. Kelly's story, I think, is more similar to mine, and I think probably a lot of other people's where you went the majority of your life, kind of, as you said, a strict materialist, not having really any strange experiences. And then within the last three years, with literally a thousand days, you've gotten so deep but, you know, like, eponymous to your, you know, podcast down the rabbit hole. You've gone into the UFO rabbit hole deeply. I'm curious, how does that start? What was your mindset before this event changed your perspective and what ultimately happened that brought you into this world?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, so it's been. It's crazy to me that it's been such a short amount of time, honestly, with everything that's happened. But it was back in 2021 that I was going to the Outer Banks with my family, and that was a place where I'd actually seen a UFO as a kid. So I think, like a lot of people, although I didn't really take anomalous experiences seriously, when I look back at my history, I see that I'd had several, including, you know, more than one UFO sighting. But there was one in particular when I was a kid that had always kind of stuck with me. And I had started hearing these stories in the news about UFOs, and I was like, I'm going to go to the beach. I'm not good at taking time off. So I was like, this week that I'm at the beach, I'm going to figure this UFO thing out. Just get right to the bottom of it. I did not get to the bottom of it in a week, but I got obsessed because I suddenly realized that the amount of evidence that was there, and I had no idea what was going on, but it was clear to me that, like, I had seriously miscalculated. You know, I considered myself to be a strong, critical thinker and a very rational person. And the fact that there was just this insane thing going on in the world that I had just completely discounted and also seemingly very much misunderstood, because the way that the UFO phenomenon is presented to us in, like, the media and the news is really kind of like a shadow of a shadow of. A shadow of what that experience is actually like when people actually report it. So I realized I really had no idea what was going on, and I got obsessed and I started, like, digging really deeply into this stuff. And after about maybe three months of that, and I was just reading anything I could get my hands on, I had a. Probably the most profound, anomalous experience of my life. And it was very strange. I was sitting in my room on my bed on a just random Saturday morning, drinking my Coffee. And when I get obsessed, I really get obsessed. So, I mean, I was like, I had books spread out all around me and pens and highlighters, and I was ready to spend the day just, like, going deep on this UFO thing. And all of a sudden, I had. I don't even know what to call it. I did an episode about it, and it took me, like, a year to write it. It's called through the Looking Glass, where I explain it in as much detail as I can. But it's hard to talk about in detail because I basically kind of experienced a sort of consciousness that feels very different than kind of day to day. I felt like I was almost outside of time, and I could see and understand a lot of things at once, and that I was shown a lot of things at once. And I felt like there was an entity that I never saw, but I felt like I was being sort of directed through this experience. And I'd been an atheist up to that point in my life, and I suddenly understood that there absolutely was a God and that all the weird things that had happened to me in my life had happened for a reason and that they had brought me to this moment. And this was what I was supposed to be doing with my life. And I was supposed to start this podcast. And a million things, I don't remember most of it. It probably lasted about two minutes. And as soon as it was over, I had some, like, flashes of things that I remembered. But I was changed. Like, I was. I. The first thing I did, my husband, who's my fiance at the time, you know, he and I had just gotten engaged, and we had been friends for, like, 10 years before that. So something we both really loved about our relationship was that we both knew what we were getting into. Right? Like, there are no surprises. And we really shared this view of the world. Like, we grew up near each other. We saw the world the same way, and I knew in that moment that I was a different person. And I immediately just started sobbing. And I went to him and tried to explain to him what had happened, and he was very concerned, but very understanding. Jay knows my husband. He's like the Zen master of the universe. He can handle a lot sweethearts. Yeah. But I did change after that. I became a different person. And I suddenly. I started the podcast just a couple months later. And, you know, I had a really hard time for a long time integrating that experience. It took me a couple years to even start to talk about it. Even when Jay and I first started hanging out, I didn't Even identify as an experiencer, because first of all, that experience was so different. It didn't. You know, I'm used to stories of like a little bit more like Jay's story, where it's like there are entities and there's craft and there's, you know, what happened to me, especially as someone who was an atheist, I think it was more of along the lines of a mystical experience of some kind. But I didn't have a place to put that in myself. And so it's been a really weird three years because on the one hand, I've been obsessed and working really hard at making my way through this field and feeling like I know what I'm supposed to be doing. That that stuff is very important to me. I had been a marketer before and in pr, and that was my world. And so I really have felt as though kind of my role is to help people who are coming from the mindset that I was in, to try to get them to this place to understand what it is that we're dealing with, like what our non human intelligence is, what's going on right now with the phenomenon and trying to explain it to people in a way that they can kind of. If you take it piece by piece, it actually makes a lot of sense. But there aren't a lot of places, like when I started where you can take it piece by piece. So that's what I've been doing for the last three years and just getting super deep into it, and my life just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

[J. King]

Wow. Okay. I have a bunch of questions. I'm curious. What was the UFO sighting you saw as a child?

[Kelly Chase]

So I was like, maybe 13 years old. I was at the beach with my family at the Outer Banks in North Carolina. And I was sitting outside. I would sit outside at night because I was a suburban kid, so I never really saw stars. Not like that. And so I would sit out on the porch at night and just look up at the stars. And I was staring out at the dunes one night just by myself outside. And I had this thought, which sounds crazy, but I found out as I got more into this stuff, this happens to people all the time. But I had this thought that I'd never had before, which was, if I look up right now, I'm gonna see a ufo. And I looked up and sure enough, there was a light going across the sky that like, could have been a plane, but then it did two really sharp, like, right angle turns and then just like, like off across the horizon, like Nothing I'd ever seen before. And so I went inside and told my family what I'd seen. And I was very excited or whatever, and they just thought I was smoking weed. And I was like, I was allowed to bring weed.

[J. King]

You gave a free set. That was a free smoke sesh. You would have gotten into no trouble.

[Pat Price]

Right.

[Kelly Chase]

I was like, I didn't even bring my weed, man.

[Pat Price]

So.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah.

[J. King]

And you thought you're like, oh, that's a weird thing. Kind of a fun thing to tell my friends at school, but you're 13, so you have no real concept of how bizarre that is.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, I'm not sure that I even talked to anyone else about it after that. And every long once in a while, I would think about it, but when I didn't have anything, I had nowhere to place to put that information. And so I think with a lot of people, when you have an experience that you can't explain, and it's like two seconds long of your whole life, the rest of your life is very normal, it's very easy to just assume that those two seconds were like, I don't know what that was, but I probably don't need to worry about it.

[J. King]

Right, so then fast forward to this consciousness shift. This happens when you're like, late 20s, 30, late 30s.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, this was like, three years ago.

[J. King]

Oh, gotcha. Okay. So you're just sitting on your bed, just doing work, looking to get into, you know, more UFOs research. Now, I understand that consciousness is a difficult thing to even define as we presently are experiencing it. So describing a consciousness shift will obviously be more difficult and less accessible. So I'm curious, and you already kind of put the disclaimer on details, but if you could explain the details more explicitly. You're sitting in bed and then time changes. Do you have a visual perception change as well?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, it was a very immersive experience. Like, I was no longer on my bed in my room, at least in terms of where my awareness was.

[J. King]

Okay. And how does that happen? Like, how quickly does that happen?

[Kelly Chase]

In a flash, it was like I felt it coming on.

[J. King]

Do you fall.

[Kelly Chase]

For me? It felt more like going up.

[J. King]

Okay.

[Kelly Chase]

But it was very. All of those things, like time and direction all became kind of irrelevant very quickly because I felt like what I could see was almost. It was like I was outside of time, and I could see the connective tissue of time and different timelines and the history. I feel like I was simultaneously looking at the history of my life, the history of the planet, like the history of the universe all at the same time. And that there were certain things, particularly in my own life timeline, that were being pulled out for me, like this, this, this, this, this. And it was really in a kind of way to say these things happen to you because you're going to need this next. Like, with what's coming next. You're going to need to know this like, or this lesson is going to come back, or it's going to be important. And I feel like I was shown similar things about the planet and about the universe, but those things are. I can't get them now. Like, it's. And if that's a strange thing to even talk about or to say, but it's something that I've found it's been easier to talk about it because I've met so many other experiencers, actually. Even Mike Nastors, who you're gonna talk to soon, also is somebody that I helped me get the courage to start talking about this stuff because he's had experiences where he was shown things and then it was like, you should talk to him about that, where it's walled off in his mind afterward. And you kind of know it's there and you kind of know it's going to come up at some point, probably, but you don't know what it is.

[Pat Price]

One of the interesting things about this, I don't mean to, is that there are long standing cultural contexts for this, that different cultures call it different things. But if you were coming from a more shamanic tradition, you would talk about this as being maybe an initiatory experience. And then if you're coming from a kind of more religious, kind of Judeo Christian perspective, like Jeff Kripal pointed out to us earlier, you would call this revelation. And that revelation, the etymology there is like something's revealed to you, right? And that situations like this go back thousands and thousands of years and have been written about in religious doctrine, spiritual texts, all this other kind of stuff. And we still just don't have like this great. We don't know how to wrap our hands around this stuff. But then when you look at the world and you look at the great. If you look at, say the words of Nikola Tesla, for example, or so many of the other great geniuses that have benefited humanity, they'll talk sometimes in guarded terms or very openly about having similar weird flashes where it feels like their whole world changes in a couple minutes and then they are kind of like alight with something. And we've almost come to depend on that in terms of where our Society goes in some ways, because you have to think, if so many of these bright people that have done so much for us reveal things like this. Carl Jung, one of the fathers of psychology, wrote very much about this in his autobiography. And he. He tried to hide some of these details until he was dead because he recognized that it could be troubling for some people to understand. But, I mean, it's like, this stuff happens, and, like, what do we, you know, what are we going to do about it?

[J. King]

Yeah, that is interesting. Now, just to placate the skeptics, okay, at this moment, were you under the influence of psychedelic drugs?

[Kelly Chase]

No, this was like a very normal.

[J. King]

Were you drinking? Was there some type of chemical explanation? Is, like, the first thing people would ask? Like.

[Kelly Chase]

Of course, of course. No. And I mean, honestly, sometimes those things do help people have experiences, and people can debate that. But no, I was dead sober. It was a Saturday morning. I hadn't even drank the night before. I was just. I'd had coffee.

[J. King]

Yeah, yeah, I've had coffee before, and that's never happened to me. Yeah, it's a strange thing. And then, furthermore, this has never happened to you before. Like, you don't have a history of mental health where you're hearing voices and things like that. Would that be. No, not that that would even necessarily preclude the experience, but just to contextualize it for people that maybe are like, oh, well, you know, crazy people have crazy thoughts.

[Kelly Chase]

No. I mean, this was completely different than anything that had ever happened to me. And I can't tell you how much I was the least likely person on the planet for this to happen to. I was an atheist, and I was very comfortable in that. I was certain I was not seeking. I felt very solid in my worldview. And, like, I got into this UFO thing, but I still was approaching it from this very kind of, like, physicalist, rationalist place. And to be honest, part of the thing that was the hardest for me to come to terms with this, and I was lucky enough to have people like Jay and I became friends before I even started to really get into this stuff, because I denied it for a long time because I couldn't accept it. Even though it changed everything about me and it changed my life, I couldn't accept it. And I was very much afraid, and still kind of afraid, to be honest with you, that I was losing my mind, because those are. I didn't have a worldview that accepted that something like that could even happen. And yet it had happened to me. And so even as it changed everything about my life. I somehow just kept moving forward in a way where you kind of split off that part of yourself and you're just like, well, we'll think about that later maybe.

[J. King]

Yeah. No, it causes a lot of problems because either you're going crazy, which is bad. Right. And then you have to be on psych drugs and you have to question every experience you have. Like, is that person in the grocery store real, or am I having something?

[Kelly Chase]

Well, I'm the daughter of psychiatrists, so, like, I have a very. That's how I see the world.

[J. King]

So now you know things and you're able to understand how your brain is operating internally. And so now you're questioning all of your senses, which is debilitating in its own. Right.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah.

[J. King]

Or you have to accept that there is some type of God, Creator, you know, some type of unmoved mover. Right. And then now you have to change your behavior accordingly. And how do you change your behavior to now live in accordance with this, you know, Creator, this being. Now you have to look at all the history of religious tradition and try to come up with some type of formula for who this, you know, entity is.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah.

[J. King]

To then serve. Right. Like, it'd be. I think it would be. I think it'd be strange to now have this profound understanding of God than exist outside of what his will is. Right. Like, to just fully reject, like, oh, there's a God, but I don't care. I've seen God, but I'm not going to change anything. I think that would be strange. I'm curious. Have you now gone more towards, not necessarily a religion, so to speak, but a behavioral change with this understanding that, oh, there is this being? I'm not just flesh and bones inside this body bag. There's actually perhaps a soul or some type of eternal essence to my.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. And that part happened almost instantly. Without understanding it or integrating it. I felt. I knew that I had a soul because I could feel it. I knew I could feel it in myself and in the past. It's not that it didn't matter to me to be a good person, but I also just thought that kind of, like, if you mostly did the right thing and you didn't hurt anybody and you weren't a jerk, that that was enough. But I came out of it with this understanding that my thoughts and my intentions are almost. Are just as, if not more important and that the energy that I cultivate within myself and that I transmit to other people is of profound importance and is almost sacred and that I need to be taking seriously what it is that I put out into the world. And there were a lot of other things too. Like, I was just. As a kid. I was a kid who would have panic attacks about dying and death and that sort of thing. And even as an adult, I feel like I would still confront that at times. And I was instantly like, I'm no longer afraid of dying. I'm no longer afraid of death. Those things happen almost instantaneously. Like, I was very changed. It took me a couple of years to intellectually catch up to a place where I felt like I had some kind of an ontological scaffolding to support these things that had already changed in me and to understand them.

[Pat Price]

But.

[Kelly Chase]

But the changes happened, like, instantly.

[J. King]

Now, this realm that you enter into, that you're sort of, you know, downloading these revelations, perhaps you're not in a physical body. You. Would you consider that a soul? Would you consider that, like, you just were in communion with consciousness?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. I felt like maybe it was even a higher self. I felt like I had awareness of. Of a larger piece of myself, if in a way, like, I saw my life kind of from the outside, and I had an almost like, parental compassion for myself. Like, that felt kind of outside of myself in a way. Like I suddenly could see myself very clearly, but, like, with a lot of love. Like, the experience was overwhelmingly loving. Like, it was euphoric, and it was. I mean, I cried and fell into a lot of grief afterwards because the change was so profound and it was hard for me, but in was like, absolute love and acceptance of everything.

[Pat Price]

Hmm.

[J. King]

Yeah. It reminds me of two different experiences. One would be the experience that people would have on psilocybin or some type of psychedelic drug. Because I've heard numerous experiences, myself included, with my own experiences, not to the same extent, but I've heard people, close friends of mine that have done mushrooms then looked in the mirror and they saw their body, which, again, I've heard mixed things. Like, perhaps don't look in the mirror while you're on psychedelic drugs. That it invoke things that maybe make you feel uncomfortable. Like, ketamine is notorious. Like, don't look in the mirror on ketamine because you're disassociating. It can cause a breakdown or some type of bad trip, quote, unquote. But mushroom, specifically. A friend looked into the mirror, saw himself. He's not overweight or unattractive. He's probably just a regular guy, you know what I mean? And he looked at himself and said, and saw how beautiful his existence was, saw his body and was like, what an amazing body I have. Like, my heart's beating all the time, it never stops beating. Like all my cells are working so hard. Like my brain is functioning so well. Like perhaps I'm not like, you know, some type of sculpted, sculpted demigod, but there's still a intrinsic beauty to my creation because I'm made, you know, he's a religious person, but made in some type of creation of a higher being, which, depending on your faith, tradition, maybe that doesn't hold up, but that's the way he saw it. And he came out of the experience with way more confidence, self esteem, appreciation for himself, and someone that historically had dealt with self esteem things. So I was like, oh, wow, that's a really fascinating thing. And even in the way that you're describing this euphoria and parental acceptance of yourself, it reminds me of that experience a little. The other experience I think of is like near death experiences. So our friend James Iandoli talks about in his near death experience that he spoke about on this program that he, after a car accident was above and the timeline, you guys probably even know the story better than I do, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in the sort of liminal space that he was in after his car accident, he was above his accident. He was seeing himself, but also simultaneously seeing the time span of his life, all at the same time that he was seeing the past, present, future, and then even looking at the future of the earth, but also the past of the earth. And he's like, it's difficult to explain because we see time so linearly because that's how we experience it. But he was outside of time, looking at time as like it's this own tangible thing in a way that was all happening at the same time and it made sense then, but it doesn't now. And again, it sounds like a similar thing with you where you're looking at your life experiences and it's non linear, like they just are experiences that are all kind of happening at the same time. Perhaps you're understanding and experiencing them outside of time. Is that a fair attribution to your experience?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, absolutely. Because, I mean, I've done my fair amount of psychedelics and psychedelics can get you close, not even close, it can get you to something similar. But this was definitely, I think, more like a near death experience. I think that's why I'm not afraid to die now is because I have this understanding after that that what we're experiencing right here is a very filtered, filtered down version of. This is just a very small bit of what we even are and that we're here to have a very particular experience. And there's all this anxiety right about, am I good enough? Am I loved, Am I contributing enough? Do people like me? But as soon as you're outside of that, it's like there's differentiation, but we're also all the same. And it's not just that I realized that I was loved. It was that I realized that I was loved. And when you have that, you don't really need to be loved. You just are love. And it's enough for you and it's enough for everybody. And it's. And so, you know, like, I love being alive. I'm in no hurry to check out. I think this is great. But when it happens, we're in the.

[Pat Price]

Beautiful tent and we hike down here.

[J. King]

Exactly. Yeah. We're deep in the Adirondacks right now. It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

[Kelly Chase]

And it's kind of fun that, like, we kind of play this game where we have a life where we pretend like we don't know what we are and we have to kind of remember. And I love all of this, but when it's time to go, I'm ready. The next party's better.

[J. King]

Yeah. This is so interesting. Is it possible? And again, this is from a skeptic point of view. You had some type of brain aneurysm and that your mind was collapsing on itself and you had a near death experience and then you kind of came out of it and this aneurysm stopped. Like, did you have some type of like, personal assessment of like, your autonomy afterwards? Like, am I healthy? Like, am I, am I okay?

[Kelly Chase]

I didn't have any signs afterwards that I'd had any kind of a physical thing. But like, technically, could it have been like a mini seizure or a something? I think absolutely. But even that, the more I've learned over the last few years about anomalous experiences and how they happen, it's that, you know, trauma, whether that be physical, emotional, spiritual trauma, sometimes it can be, you know, actually something like a seizure or a brain aneurysm or a near death experience, but also, you know, psychedelics or meditation or just maybe reading too many books about UFOs, like if you alter, if you quickly alter your viewpoint or you alter something about your body, altered is rapidly altered. Most anomalous experiences are precipitated by some kind of event like that. And so it really Begs the question of, like, what is going on there? Because I think even if that was what was happening, there's something about our, like, our bodies and our brains, the theory is, at least, are kind of filtering down consciousness and they're giving us a very particular perspective that's constrained by not just sort of our cultural understandings and our languages and the agreements that we've made among each other, but also our senses. You know, like, you can't see the whole color spectrum and you can't hear things that a dog hears. So there's. Our senses don't give us a sense of all that is. And so we're having this, like, very particular experience right here together in this kind of bubble of sensory and cultural information. But as soon as. If something happens to you that can. That pops you out of that for a minute. It's really interesting that when that happens that people end up reporting things that are very similar. You know, that like what I had is very similar to, you know, James Ian Dolley's near death experience or, you know, even going back, reading the Bible, like a lot of the Paul story, right? Like on the way to Tarsus. And like, you know, that story I identified with a lot. You know, like, it wasn't like the light just came down and he was like, all right, God, I'm here, let's do this. Like, he was blinded for a time and like, they had to take him to the city and like, people had to take care of him and he was like a wreck. And like, eventually he got it together and went out and kind of fulfilled this mission that he felt he was given through that experience. But that was very traumatic and there was a lot about that that I identified with. So I don't know. I mean, like, I think it's a very fair question. I just think that, like, even if that was the case, it still begs the question of, like, why is it that when people have something go wrong with their brain or they almost die or they take a psychedelic or something, that we end up accessing this realm and then come back and we all kind of report very similar things?

[J. King]

Yeah, no, I don't see it as a. As discrediting the experience. I do see it as, like, contextualizing it perhaps like some type of. I don't call it a gateway, but some type of, you know, catalyst for these experiences. Like, I'm not even someone that discounts, like, psychedelic experiences. People, like, people have these profound. I've talked to friends that have done ayahuasca and Dmt and have reported having some type of experience with God. And I don't discount that to say like, oh, you were on drugs, duh. I say that to say like, perhaps you're on drugstuh or maybe you found some type of portal or gateway to have some type of communion with some type of entity that we don't interface with in our current level of consciousness. I don't discount it. And then that goes for near death experiences or other things of that sort. I'm curious why from this experience. Actually, before I get to that question, the entity that you claimed to have interfaced with, not necessarily visually, but just felt the presence of, was it a good entity? Was it benevolent? Was it neutral? Like, how would you describe your relationship and experience with that being? What's up guys? Let's take a break really quick because you're nostalgic. You remember in your childhood sitting down, watching cartoons, having a big old bowl of cereal. I tried doing that. Now as a 28 year old father, okay, I sat down with my little baby, I bought cereal from the store, I sat down and I looked at the box. Immediately was like, this is the craziest thing ever. It's so sugary. I tried taking six bites. I felt nauseous afterwards. I mean, it's insane that I used to be able to eat this stuff as a kid. And then I found out about this company called Magic Spoon. 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[Kelly Chase]

It was extremely benevolent, and it felt ancient, and it felt like somebody very familiar to me. Like, it felt like this was somebody that I had known forever and that was, like. That we loved each other very deeply, that we had a deep history. I didn't necessarily have a. At least I haven't brought out of that experience a sense of what that was. But, yeah, it's hard to explain. I didn't really ever see them. It felt like we didn't have a body at the time. So it's hard to translate these things, but kind of like they were just right over my shoulder. They were in my ear, but I couldn't see them. But I didn't really see myself either.

[J. King]

Were you afraid in the experience?

[Kelly Chase]

No. In the experience, I was the happiest I've ever.

[J. King]

The whole time?

[Kelly Chase]

The whole time. It was like, when I came out of. Was almost like all of a sudden, I started seeing patches of my room kind of coming back through, and all of that seemed almost repugnant. You know what I mean? Everything in the real space looked so. Just kind of dirty and crooked and not quite. And. And it felt like. But when I came back to it, I was kind of horrified to be back in my bed. I'm like, what is this place? This is awful. And my room's very nice, actually, but a great place.

[J. King]

But in comparison to the euphoria of this space.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. And I was like. And I just had, like, tears running down my face, like it was a rapturous experience.

[J. King]

Yeah. Now, I can preclude that because you were doing UFO research prior to. And then having the experience, that that would be the path you would go down. But was there anything else from the experience that would indicate that it was anomalous in the route of ufology, or was it just sort of a journey of consciousness that brought you to this path? Like, why did the path not bring you into a deep spiritual tradition to say, like, oh, I'm going to become Catholic or Muslim? Why was that the path that this took you down?

[Kelly Chase]

I mean, I think, at least from what I was shown, that this was very particularly what I was supposed to be doing, that the skill set that I had and that the way that I saw the world, and very particularly the fact that I had been so certain that there was nothing on the other side, the fact that I had been so atheistic that I'd had that worldview and then the skill set that I had from marketing and PR and I'd had podcasts in the past and that sort of thing, that was necessary. And I've always felt like. And I don't feel like I ever attached it to any particular belief system, although I certainly entertain it. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools all the way through, and so much of my context is through that lens. And it certainly had me go back to the faith of my childhood and embrace it in a different way. But I also feel like, for the work that I'm doing right now, that being, as my dear friend, the philosopher James Madden says, I try to stay ontologically promiscuous. I like that, you know, just because I feel like so much of what I do is just to try to make things palatable for everybody within their own worldview. And that, like, stamping too much of my own particular answers on anything wouldn't be super helpful. And so I don't. But, yeah, I was just sort of given the idea that that was what I was supposed to be doing and that that was kind of always the plan. And it's like. Like it's go time. Interesting.

[J. King]

Could you share more in detail, things that you firmly remember from the experience, like what you were shown? I know you kind of tacitly remarked, like, things from your childhood, but what specifically came up in that experience that you could share?

[Kelly Chase]

I think I remembered a lot of just about being a kid and about the things that I cared a lot about kind of before the world got to me, you know, like the things that I. I was very into parapsychology as a kid, and I was just always a seeker. I was just always a questioner. And I. And the things that I'm doing right now feel like a really natural progression of who I was as a kid. And so I think there was a lot of just sort of remembering that there was looking back to particular anomalous experiences that had happened in my life and realizing, like, oh, there was something to that, and that in some way that those were like breadcrumbs that were being left for me to kind of affirm to myself that these things were. Were happening on purpose. And there was just also a lot of like, very, like, almost procedural things that was just like, you know, you know, how to do this from this job, you had to do this from this job, and you're going to need this skill, and you're going to need this skill, and it's going to take this and it's going to take that. And it just sort of like instantly wove my whole life that I had always felt like was kind of bizarre and checkered. I've done all kinds of weird stuff. I've had a million different jobs. I've lived all over the world. Like, I've done weird. I've always been weird. And. And all of it never really made a lot of sense. And then it was like, no, all of that was for a very specific reason. And you're gonna need all of it.

[J. King]

Now and then revelations about the planet and like, perhaps the future.

[Kelly Chase]

That stuff is way murkier. Like, I think that there's a sense. I don't even. Sometimes I don't even like talking about this stuff just because I worry about what it does to people. It's such a meme and like a destructive meme. But I mean, I think, like a lot of experiencers, I know that it involved kind of coming cataclysms and like that sort of thing, which is extraordinarily common not just among experiencers now, but back through, you know, generations and through millennia when there's people who are reporting, having contact, whether it's with, you know, gods and goddesses or fairies or djinn or whatever you want to call it, this kind of theme of cataclysms, floods and, you know, comets, annihilation is something that comes through all the time. And so I don't know what that means necessarily, which is why sometimes I don't talk about it because I worry that people hear that and they're like, the end is nigh. And like, who knows? Could be, but it's certainly not. I'm certainly not the first person who's been shown that. And so far, so good. We haven't died.

[J. King]

And was it a clear example or was it just a general feeling of cataclysm?

[Kelly Chase]

At the time, it was extraordinarily clear and I knew exactly what was going to happen. And now I don't.

[J. King]

Bizarre.

[Kelly Chase]

I don't remember.

[J. King]

Well, it's interesting that you can have like such a dire and sort of tragic revelation, but simultaneously be filled with so much peace and, you know, sort of solace.

[Kelly Chase]

Like, you weren't concerned and I'm not concerned. I mean, I am concerned in that. I mean, I think we're all concerned, right? There's like a bunch of really plausible ways that the world could end imminently, right? And that's a fun way to exist. But I think I had this understanding that, you know, I'm a Battlestar Galactica fan that like, all this has happened before, and all this will happen again, and that it's all. That there is a very important thing that's being done here with sort of the human project and that. And that whatever comes is not necessarily gonna be great, but that, you know, the real. We come here to do something very specific. But the real us is in the place that I went to. Like, the real. That's. And that's where the real stakes are. And whatever we're working out here is very important. It's very, very important. But it's not reality, necessarily. There is a more real real on the other side. And so it makes you kind of less. It's not that I don't care that I don't think it's important. I think it's extraordinarily important. It's just that I'm not. I'm not afraid.

[J. King]

Interesting. And then since that event, you obviously get more involved in the community. You start your own podcast and connect with Jay and get a better friendship with more people that are experiencers. And then you said that there were more experiences that have happened since.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah.

[J. King]

Could you share about any of those?

[Kelly Chase]

Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, there's one. I just did a whole episode about it. It took me forever to write about it. Cause it was so weird. But one thing that I did remember out of that weird experience that I had, one of the flashes of pictures that I kind of held onto was I was shown human DNA, like, a strand of DNA, and it had this, like, weird vortex of energy going up through the middle of it. And it had these, like, weird rings around it that had these kind of candy cane, like, structures hanging on it.

[Pat Price]

Like the double helix thing. Yeah, yeah. And then. But then these strange.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, like, they're like little candy canes, like, hanging on the side. And it was one of the few things I could remember. So then afterwards, I was, like, trying to find, like, what was that that I saw? Like, is that a real thing or is it. Is it not a real thing? And I couldn't find anything that looked like that. And so I was like, well, it's not real. And if that's not real, then probably the rest of it's not real. Then, like, probably just had a seizure or something. We're good, right? Let's move on with our lives. But then out of nowhere comes this guy that I met on UFO Twitter. And then we were in. We took a class from Daniel Spas. Elka together, and we started talking, and I. His name's Tom Matt. And long story short, Tom, Matt has this like whole. He. Okay, so he had a whole drug fueled mental breakdown. Like he had a cocaine addiction and he literally like burned his house down because he thought his wife was like running some sort of like ring, but also was involved with the government.

[Pat Price]

It was like he was deep in the shit.

[Kelly Chase]

Like he was. It was bad, right? And then he started like moving from city to city. He has a book called Jesus Goes to Hollywood, A Memoir of Madness, which. Cause he literally thought he was Jesus at one point, right? So this goes on for like two years. He finally like gets it together, gets sober, gets some help, regains his faculties because he had been a very successful businessman and owned a marketing agency and stuff before that. And in the wake of this, he suddenly found that he had a new capacity for math. And he also had this thing that he calls upsight, which is basically this holographic overlay over his reality that he can kind of interact with and that non human intelligences can kind of communicate with him. And I think to any person, right, and especially somebody like me who grew up with psychiatrists as parents, to me it sounds like, well, your psychosis didn't really end, it just sort of like changed shape and now you think you've got this holographic overlay over everything. But he came to me and he told me all this and he told me he wanted me to tell his story. And I was like, absolutely. Like, no, like, that's not. But I liked him. Like there was just something I couldn't quite walk away from. And like, long story short, it's an enormously long story. He wanted me to read this paper that he had written on like dark matter and dark energy. And he said that he had been told through UPSIGHT these things. And I go to print out the paper and at the top of that paper is exactly the DNA strand that I saw with like the vortex of energy going up the middle, the candy canes on the side. And there were a bunch of other kind of crazy synchronicities that happened around that same time. But all of a sudden this guy who's like a stranger, who I thought was like, probably crazy, his story is now deeply and intimately connected to mine in a way that like, I couldn't ever prove to anyone else. But like, I now can't let this go, right? And he ended up going, I told him, like, listen, if you can get somebody to study this and prove that upside is a thing, I'll tell the story. And he ended up like, just A couple weeks later, getting a team led by Dean Radin at the Institute of Noetic Sciences to take on his case and got a great lab. Yeah. And they've got a paper coming out in the next couple months show I've got seen an early version of it. And basically they established that what he was seeing with upsight is a distinct brain state that is anomalous. That's different from if he was hallucinating or if he was imagining or if he was there for a whole week while they did this. And they're like, so apparently he does have this ability, whatever it is.

[Pat Price]

One of the interesting things about that case is that that often when people are using their creative visualization, you're kind of like in your mental creative space, you're seeing them. You sit back and you think and you look at Michael J. Fox in Back to the Future and you can call it up, you can call up his puffy vest, you can call up his jean jacket and the whole thing and you can see it in your mind. But this guy Tom, they tracked his eye movements in this lab and when he was getting himself into this state and kind of like seeing this visual overlay that he'd been talking about for a while. And he approached me too and I was like, this guy's crazy, you know what I mean? Or there's something going on with this guy that seems. It's just so different from so many of the other reports that I've hear that I don't know where to file this. It's kind of more it. But there was the part where I was like, he says that he was crazy before, he's probably still crazy or that he's mentally ill.

[J. King]

Some type of material explanation for what's going on.

[Pat Price]

Exactly. But then they're tracking his eye movements and they see that his eyes were moving in a way that only happens when you're actually looking at something.

[Kelly Chase]

Like if you're tracking a bird flying, it's really hard to fake that when your eyes track onto something that's moving, if you're faking it, your eyes will jump along that path. But if you're actually tracking it at all. And so that's one way that they're able to tell. But I mean they did it with actual brain scans and oh, that's above my pay grade. But I mean it's gonna be a peer reviewed paper that's out that. And so that, that, and that, that all story. I mean there's so much more to that story. But that took Place over a series of like, almost, like, literally almost this whole three years since I had my experience that's been going on. And I was like, slowly. And it's just stuff like that where people just come into your life in very strange and bizarre ways and weird things happen and you just. Yeah.

[Pat Price]

One of the things that I like best about this, the Tom Matt story, and, like, Kelly hosted a couple of conferences with me. The Inquire Anomalous conference series back in 2022. Right? Yeah. And Chris Mellon and Gary Nolan, all sorts of great folks were in those early conferences. And Tom was like a guy. He was just somebody that was attending. And I was like, ah, he showed up early. He's got this weird energy. Like, what's going on with this guy? And I remember when you were telling me about him sending you this weird paper, and people send people like Kelly and I. Weird shit. My email is all the time, yours probably too, at this point. But then when she printed it out and she saw that picture that she also saw in that vision. One of my favorite parts about the story is that you got irrationally mad at me.

[Kelly Chase]

I was so mad. There have been a lot of times when I've gotten mad about this whole thing. I mean, even though my life is much better, I'm very happy. Like, this is my job right now. I'm having a blast. Okay. But I'm also someone whose values. I value my freedom over anything really. Like, my freedom and liberty. And just like, the ability to do what I want to do is something that I have always placed at a premium in my life. And so the idea that something could just reach into my brain one morning and change who I am as a person, it's violating. Yeah. Even though I like the result. It's hard not to be like, how dare you? You know, like, it's. And so. And I felt that way about when I saw that strand of DNA on his paper because, like, I really liked Tom a lot. But I did not want to tell this story because it's not. It's a complicating story. I was trying to find a way to tell a story where it was, like, rational and science based. And I'm gonna explain what happened to me, and I'm not crazy. And now my story is connected to Tom's, you know, And I'm like, and for what? Of all the things you showed me, you showed me this, and now this is the thing I'm. And I don't know anything about DNA. Are you kidding me?

[Pat Price]

Right?

[Kelly Chase]

So it Was just. It is funny. I've gotten jc. There are points along the way where I get very angry because I'm just like, what is this?

[Pat Price]

Yeah.

[J. King]

Especially when you're having a corroborating experience with someone that you maybe have written off or kind of had some type of material explanation for, you know, oh, he's having a psychotic break. Now you have to investigate it more deeply because now it's going back to that initial concern we had is like, well, am I crazy?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah.

[J. King]

Because if I think this guy's crazy and he's saying the same shit as me, then am I crazy or is he less crazy than I think?

[Pat Price]

Right.

[J. King]

Yeah. That's concerning. And I could see that being frustrating.

[Kelly Chase]

It's very concerning. Yeah.

[J. King]

When you had the sort of, like, candy cane apparition, was that in that same experience we had talked about in your bed?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. And it was one of. Almost. There were very few things outside of kind of like my. Things I'd seen in my own life and things that I had seen that I was supposed to do, and kind of a very vague idea of what literally, like the next three years, which are about the end of that and it's all ended up being true, that were gonna happen after that, but everything else was gone. There's just, like, small flashes of things that were still there. And that was one of the very, very, very few things I could still remember.

[J. King]

Interesting. And now, what was your. What do you make of that now? Like, this candy cane thing based off of the research, plus your own experience? Like, what are these sort of aberrations to human DNA?

[Kelly Chase]

You know, I'm not convinced that they're anything like. I have a few different ideas about it. I mean, Tom, I think, tends to think that there might actually really be something to that. He wrote a whole paper on it. I don't discount that. But I also. I don't know anything about DNA, and I don't. I'm just not sure if anybody was gonna be shown this, like, shown some show somebody who knows something about DNA. You know what I mean? Like. And I'm not going back to school for this. Like. Like, why me? Right. It doesn't. And that part never really made sense to me. And so I've had a lot of different thoughts about why. Like, why. I think part of it, for me, on a very personal level, being forced to reckon with my story. And not just to reckon with it, but to reckon with my story in the context of Tom's story, you know, especially coming from the background. I come from with psychiatrists as parents and that sort of thing, I think that that humbled the shit out of me. I had to deal with every single sticky, ugly, hard, messy bit of being an experiencer. And because, like I said, there's a lot of. There is a lot of involvement with trauma and with addiction even, and with drugs and with, you know, all kinds of things that make these stories more complicated to tell. And it would have been a lot easier for me to protect myself and to tell a cleaner version of what happened to myself, and by extension, through my podcast. And the fact that I was forced, in a way, to reckon with it in that way made me better at what I do, and it brought me to a place that I think I needed to be to be able to do a better job of telling experiencer stories and of doing the work that I'm doing moving forward. And also, Courtney, who's in our first episode, he's at the end of episode one, a good friend of both of ours now, and he was texting with me about it after that episode came out. And an idea that he had was that sometimes these synchronicities that happen like that are almost like encryption, that it was. That it's a way of communicating to the recipient of that synchronicity that, like, this is something that you in particular need to pay attention to. That there was that, like, this was something that only I knew. I never even doodled that DNA thing that I saw. I never told anybody else about it, you know, and like I said, I can't prove that to anyone. I'm not interested in that. But, like, for me, it became something that, like, I could not walk away from, no matter how much I wanted to. I, Like, I knew that this was for me. And so he thinks that maybe that's part of it, but I don't know. And the story's still evolving, and things are still happening, and I have a feeling that this story is not done with me yet. And Tom has actually found lots of other people now who report having this same holographic overlay thing going on in their vision. And I actually had a. Somebody sent me the other day, a guy who wrote in Italian a book, a biography of Nikola Tesla, who was like, you know, what he's describing is what Nikola Tesla was describing in terms of how he would. He had almost like, this hologram in his mind that he could use to create different, you know, his inventions or whatever, and that he could create the whole machine, and he could even run the machine as a hologram in his mind. And then if it didn't work, it wouldn't work. And so he would like be able to kind of. Right. And so it seems as though this is something that more people have. And now the next step is getting multiple of those people in a lab and seeing like, can they interact with each other through this interface, whatever that is.

[J. King]

Perhaps.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah.

[J. King]

Interesting. Now, based off Raiden's work, like was there any type of conclusive explanation or I guess, you know, that they were able to look at with the DNA structure? Like what, what did Tom think of it? Like, I guess what, what do other people outside of yourself think of this, you know, candy cane DNA thing?

[Kelly Chase]

I'm not sure.

[J. King]

I mean, theories. Like, it just seems, it seems so specific and so bizarre.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, I mean, Tom has very specific ideas and I probably won't represent them well, so I won't try too hard. But he has ideas about what they are and that the ways in which they help kind of like sequence genes and that it all has to do with dark matter and dark energy and like I won't be able to explain it very well, but he sure.

[J. King]

Do they exist in all people or just people that experience things?

[Kelly Chase]

I have no idea. I don't know if they exist at all. Right. So I have no idea. I mean, the whole. It's crazy how that seems like it's like such an important piece and I have no more data.

[Pat Price]

I mean, an interesting thing here is that of course, among other things, I'm the director of the Experiencer Group. I deal with anomalous experiencers quite often from around the world. And what Kelly's reporting here is there's a lot of unique, completely particular facets to what she's talking about. That little diagram, the kind of download that she got. Other people might call it an initiation or a revelation. There's a lot of words for this. But I know, for example, some of the people that come into my group are folks that have experiences as adults that start recognizing that they're having experiences as adults. And one of the groups that, that is kind of overrepresented in that batch are people that became long time meditation practitioners. And so in deep meditation, they felt like they had some kind of contact experience where they were trying to zero out or trying to kind of remain in a meditative state. And then somebody started kind of knocking at the mental door. Right. And in some of these cases I've. I've heard about folks getting almost like a code word, like what Courtney was talking about, encryption or Something like that. A term, an equation, like a message that seems impertinent. It seems unnecessary, because the message isn't for you. But then eventually you find somebody that you have a weird connection with. And that. That term, that equation, whatever that was, makes perfect sense to that third party.

[J. King]

And Courtney's the black gentleman in the program that gets this sort of message to. It was from his son, I believe, to go. He was looking to buy a home, and he had all these sort of ideas about where to purchase a home. And then he talked to his realtor, and they said. He said, hey, cut out everything else except for the little red house. This is what my son told me. And this feels very profound. And so they go to this place where this little red house is, and it happened to be the place where his ancestors, who were enslaved during American slavery, were buried and where they were actually working at the time of enslavement.

[Pat Price]

That's right.

[J. King]

Which is, I mean, remarkable and bizarre and unexplainable. I mean, it's truly like, you know, you have this deep, traumatic family history that then ties in with something that your son says. And now he owns the place where his family was enslaved.

[Pat Price]

Yeah.

[J. King]

I mean, it's, like, insane.

[Pat Price]

It's amazing, and it's apparent. And it's a ranch where, like, his history, his family history, there's a lot of precognition. There's a lot of mediumship. There's a lot. There are some profound UFO sightings. Like, it's a range of experiences.

[Kelly Chase]

Cattle mutilations.

[J. King]

Cattle mutilations that don't even make the.

[Pat Price]

Show, that didn't even make it through. But, like, his ranch.

[J. King]

There were cattle mutilations on his ranch.

[Pat Price]

Yeah, we actually shot one for the show, but, like, it just didn't fit into the show because of all the other kinds of stuff that were going.

[J. King]

On where we shot it. Cattle mutilations are these bizarre things that happen all over the country, all over the world, where, you know, farmers or, you know, people, pastoralists, will go out and see their, you know, livestock, and they will be, you know, there's a couple of different, I guess, experiences, but typically it involves some type of bizarre mutilation that happened that seems outside the realm of natural animal predation. It'll be like all the blood will be drained out, or it almost looks like ritualistic in certain ways, like certain.

[Pat Price]

Organs will be removed and almost surgical precision. Sometimes the blood will be completely drained out of the animal and very precise cuts that didn't even seem possible. Using our Own surgical methods until maybe very recently. It's strange stuff, but it's not the only thing that happens at his ranch. There's poltergeist activity, or what people would think of as poltergeist activity. There are many forms of anomalous phenomena that happen around there. And it's like there's a chicken and the egg issue, because it's like, is that he's in. His family have had that outside of that ranch, and then they went back to that place, which is their family land, which is where they were enslaved. Right. And then there's, like, heightened activity there that also mirrors the activity that they've had throughout their lives elsewhere. And so it's just like, you know, how much of that is married to that land? Specifically, how much is embedded there?

[J. King]

Yeah. What is he bringing to it?

[Pat Price]

What is he bringing to it? How much of that just traveled with him outside of that?

[J. King]

Did the prior owner of that home discuss any anomalous experience that you know of?

[Pat Price]

Not that I know of.

[Kelly Chase]

Not that I know of, no.

[J. King]

Interesting. So as he got there, things began to happen.

[Pat Price]

But the guy was like, one of the most interesting things about that story that you brought up. I mean, there are a lot of interesting aspects of that story. But his real estate agent had given him this whole pile of houses, and some of them were in that kind of area of east Texas. He was looking for a second house. He was looking for a weekend house, a vacation property. He was also looking at places in Colorado. He was looking in places that were more traditional vacation areas as well. And then it turns out that the little red house that his son. That he heard and his son kind of prompted him to get in to try to commune with a dead ancestor and then buy the little head red house came through. Right. The thing was, is that the little red house that was in the real estate listings wasn't even for sale. And so among all of this, it was a complete aberration. He heard this voice that was like, buy the little red house. He told his real estate agent, there's a little red house in the pile. I know there is. Like, let's just go look at that. And then they went to the property, and the guy answered the door and was like, the place isn't for sale. There must have been some kind of mistake. And then Courtney just talked to the guy and then, you know, maybe made him an interesting offer, like, just said that what he thought was going on here. And then a couple weeks later, the guy was like, you know what I Thought about it and I'll sell you the property. So how many weird things had to have happened in that situation? And his family had lost all the records of where they were enslaved. They had no idea. There were some markers. They knew that there was going to be a cemetery there. There were some descriptions that had gotten passed down. There's like a creek verbally and think there's a creek. And then he went around, he went on an ATV with the owner the day that they happened upon the little red house and the ranch surrounding it. And he was like, I think the cemetery should be over there. There's the cemetery. I think if there's a cemetery, then the creek, according family lore, should be over there. There's the creek. And then they found records of like, who was buried there and things like that. And the names matched up, right. And so like it is the spot and like it's not just what it did for his, for him, but like his grandma is also a partial owner of it. She's the family matriarch. And like they started having family reunions again and brought their family closer together. Like they all recognize how or many of them, the ones that we've talked to, they recognize how bizarre and amazing the story is and it brought them back together as a family.

[J. King]

Oh yeah. I could imagine, like even outside of obviously the paranormal or unexplainable phenomenon, just the mere fact of the descendant of former slaves owning the property that the family was enslaved on is beautiful and poetic and almost Hollywood esque. What a cool story. And the fact that it is sort of catalyzed by this bizarre, unexplainable thing is, you know, just adds to it. I mean, I wonder how, I wonder how often that happens other places. I wonder if there's other versions of stories like this. But it's, I mean, just remarkable in general. And I'm curious what you had mentioned, the other experiences there, like, since that. Are there others that you could share, would want to share? Imagine this, you're 30ft underground, digging through frozen earth with spoons and mess hall plates. Nazi guards patrol overhead. One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape of World War II and centuries earlier. In a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood before her accusers. Her crime, leading armies, speaking to angels, and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from Today in History, the newsletter that brings you the most fascinating events from the past delivered fresh to your inbox. From epic wars to religious rebellions, ancient mysteries to modern marvels. Don't miss another piece. History. Scan the QR code now or click the link in the description to sign up for Today in History. Hey, guys, we're gonna take a break really quick because as you know, life gets crazy, and one person's negligence can result in another settlement. That's right. If you've ever been injured by the negligence of another, you deserve to be paid. And if you don't call a lawyer, you're probably leaving money on the table. And that's why, if you are ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan. That's right. Morgan and Morgan is America's largest personal injury law firm. They have over a hundred offices nationwide and more than a thousand lawyers. With $20 billion recovered for over 500,000 clients, Morgan and Morgan has a proven track record of fighting to get you full and fair compensation. I'm telling you, submitting a claim is so easy. Like, there's a lot of things in life that are hard. Okay. A lot of things. I mean, I don't know, trying to, like, open a. Like a. Like a beer can, but your hands are really cold. That's hard. But submitting a claim with Morgan and Morgan is easy. So if you are ever injured, you could check out Morgan and Morgan. This is where it gets amazing. Because their fee is free. Unless they win. That's right. Unless they can win your case and get you money, you pay $0. So for more information, go to. For the people dot com. That's correct. F O R the people dot com Gagnon. Or dial pound law. That's pound five hundred and twenty nine from your cell phone. That's for the people F o r the people.com gagnon. Or dial pound law. £529 from your cell phone. And also, I'm pretty sure this is a paid advertisement. I think I have to say that. Anyway, let's get back to the show.

[Kelly Chase]

Sure.

[Pat Price]

Oh, of your own experience.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, we've seen some weird ones. Something very weird that happens very specifically with me and Jay is that.

[Pat Price]

Curious to see where this is going? Yeah.

[J. King]

Jay's a talisman. I can already tell. I already said he's like a vampire. Like, he's been here a thousand years. There's something with this guy.

[Kelly Chase]

Well, he's a dreamwalker, apparently.

[Pat Price]

One word. Moisturizer. Oh, is that what it is?

[Kelly Chase]

No. I have precognitive dreams at times, and they often involve Jay. Some of it's stuff I can't necessarily talk about because it's just personal. If you're gonna have precognitive dream, it usually cuts. It's a deep cut. But I mean, just as a for instance, like, I had an experience where I had a very, very distinct dream about Jay being in trouble about something bad happening to Jay. And I woke up from that dream, and my phone was ringing on my nightstand. And this was at, like, three in the morning. Like, we don't. And listen, we're besties. We don't call each other three in the morning. And I answered the phone, and it was Jay telling me basically that what I had just dreamed had just happened, basically. And that he was okay, but that, like, something bad had happened.

[J. King]

Wow.

[Pat Price]

Yeah. I would like to go into more detail, but I was with somebody else that would prefer to, you know, the details.

[J. King]

Of course.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. But it's definitely.

[J. King]

Basically, you had a dream that something had happened with or to Jay, and then you had called to confirm that experience.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, like, I woke up to my phone ringing, and it was him telling me that that had happened.

[J. King]

And what was the time span, if you're able to even share that detail? Like, from when you were having the dream? Like, do you think you were having the dream simultaneously to the event? Oh, yeah.

[Kelly Chase]

Like, I woke up from the dream because of my phone ringing.

[J. King]

And was the event happening right prior to when you called her?

[Pat Price]

Yeah, like, it was continuing to happen. Like it was happening. Wow.

[J. King]

So you were almost having the dream simultaneously. So it's almost not even precognitive. It's like cognitive. Telepathic, perhaps, I guess. Like, I don't know what the definition would be. If you're seeing the dream and it's happening in real time.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, Like, I often have. It's happened a few times now that I've had dreams about what was going on with Jay very currently, like, at that moment. And sometimes I don't find out till later that it actually was happening. But, like.

[Pat Price]

And then there are a couple other things that you've reported to me that are, like, things that might be a few years out or something like that. And, like, that's interesting, too. But, you know, I mean, again, the details are things that we can't corroborate. They're sometimes very personal, and I wouldn't even want to mention it.

[J. King]

Yeah, that is the interesting element to a lot of this stuff. Talked about the telepathy tapes. Kai Dickens, I believe, is the woman that put it together based off of Suzanne Powell's.

[Pat Price]

Diane Powell.

[J. King]

Yeah, Diane Powell's work. And it creates an interesting problem. If anyone hasn't heard of the telepathy tapes. It's amazing. I really enjoyed it. Basically, it explores. Initially, Diane Powell's work is exploring autistic savants, children that are on the autism spectrum, typically non verbal, that have what seem like extraordinary abilities, which is well documented. You know, you'll have non verbal autistic people, or even verbal autistic people being able to memorize the digits of PI to like, you know, the 10,000th place, or have a mastery of music in some capacity that is, you know, beyond their years. And it's just remarkable what they can do. And this is documented and it was interesting. Through her research of this, she's now looking at kids that have like extraordinary mathematical abilities. But she realized some of these kids are not necessarily savants, but perhaps they are seeing what the mother is testing them on through the mom's eyes, almost telepathically. So then she says, perhaps they're not savants. Perhaps there's something even more remarkable happening, that there's a telepathic communication with the mother, typically. And then she goes on to do research and study to put a child in a room or under a blanket or with a blindfold or some type of partition. And then the mother looking at words in a book book, looking at a random number generator, and the child is able to accurately depict what the mother is seeing. Now, obviously there's criticism to this with facilitated speaking. People are suggesting that a lot of these non verbal autistic children, because of the disconnect with their mind and body, they have difficulty controlling their bodies. And so because they're non verbal and because they have difficulty controlling their bodies, typically the only way they can communicate is through a spelling board or an iPad. And sometimes they have to be touched by someone in order to do this, which under sort of the materialist scientific approach would preclude the study from fitting within some type of strict scientific measure which creates problems. And then you have this subset of the spelling community within the autistic spectrum world where they say, don't bring telepathy into this because we just got the right to do facilitated communication. And we don't want to bring telepathy into our world because that's crazy. And then you have an even smaller subset, so you have communities within communities that are exploring this whole thing. And it's Fascinating. Then it goes even farther to almost into precognition where there's a child that dies and the other autistic children already knew it without being told. And that they all sort of commune or not all, but many of them commune on a place known as the hill. And that many different nonverbal autistic kids will bury themselves in blankets and pillows to basically block out senses, to then go to this place where it's almost kind of like this non material, non physical world where they can communicate with other people. It's all very bizarre.

[Pat Price]

Is it the consciousness field? Is it the astral plane? Is that where Kelly was for those two minutes? There's a lot of questions.

[J. King]

And the difficulty with so much of this is that because the scientific process is based on the material approach, it requires certain things like double blind studies and replicability. But a lot of these precognitive experiences, it's not promptable. Right. Like, you couldn't just be like, okay, I'm going to have a precognitive thing and then prove it. It happens sort of outside of your control in certain ways.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, I have no control over it. I am compelled that there are people who have a much greater control over it. I don't. It's not something I can do on purpose. Like, I'm not. I wouldn't consider myself psychic. Like, I don't, you know, I. I think I'm very intuitive, but that's, you know, not to a degree that is otherworldly on any level. So I can't control any of this. These things just, they happen and, you know, some of it may or may not even be true is the other thing is that, and that's a layer of complication on all of this is that, you know, there's a lot of talk in the UFO world about, you know, disinformation and psyops and all of this stuff and the things that humans do to other humans to muddy the waters. But the phenomenon, whatever this thing is, also disinfos us. Like I was saying about, you know, for centuries, if not millennia, there have been, you know, groups of experiencers and, you know, or, you know, early religions, cults, that sort of thing where people feel like they're having these kinds of contact experiences where they're seeing the end of the world and then the end of the world doesn't come. And so, you know, you have to be, you know, you take for me, at least, to keep myself sane, you know, I take what's valuable and I take it as it comes. But I take everything with a big grain of salt. Like, I don't assume just because I have a dream about something that it's definitely real. That way is. That's a dangerous place to get, I think.

[J. King]

Right.

[Pat Price]

Yeah.

[J. King]

It's just. I don't know, the telepathy tape specifically. I remember listening to it just being like. I wish that there was a way to control this experience in, like, a more testable way. But perhaps the metrics of our testing are too material, I guess. Which I guess is kind of the criticism. I'm curious, have you, specifically with the experiencer group. I remember you telling me there's a woman that was having precognitive dreams, that she was emailing her psychiatrist. And so they were timestamped. And correct me if I'm wrong on this, it was timestamped and then the events would occur. And you could kind of use that almost again, it's not promptable or replicable, but there is some type of timestamp to say, like, this thing happened. I have it timestamped and then it occurred after the timestamp.

[Pat Price]

Absolutely. Yeah. That was this woman, Elizabeth Crone, really fascinating lady. She lives down in Houston, and she wrote a book with Jeff Kripal, the kind of esoteric religious studies professor, one of the true brilliant minds of anomalous inquiry, who's been kind of the dean of humanities or assistant dean or dean, I can't remember, down at Rice University for quite a while. And he runs a really great program called the Archives of the Impossible down there at Rice University. He's got one of the most interesting kind of departments that would look at this kind of stuff academically in the world. And they wrote a book together called. I think it's called Changed in a Flash, which is.

[Kelly Chase]

It's something like that.

[Pat Price]

Yeah. Which is wildly appropriate. She was in the. She's Jewish, and she was in the parking lot of her temple. She was on her way in for a service and she got hit by lightning in the parking lot. And she felt like she went to a realm for what felt like days. She was only out for a number of minutes. Somebody saw the lightning strike happen. She was holding up an umbrella, came through the umbrella. She got fried. Luckily, there were several doctors already waiting for the service to start. She was. CPR started almost immediately, ambulance almost immediately. But she similarly had this wild kind of download where she felt like she was in a cosmic field. It felt like something that people describe as heaven. And after she recovered, she started having precognitive dreams and A lot of them were actually about accidents, like plane accidents, like planes, trains and automobiles, situations that would happen. And she would write about them in extraordinary detail and then email them to herself or to a therapist or other people. And so she would have a timestamp and then she has an extraordinary track record of those events coming true. And what was it the Sully landed? Like the one with the water, where the plane landed on the water? Yeah, like in New York. She foresaw that one. There are some ones that were like, very particular, where there are details that, you know, you. It would stretch, you know, the bounds of credulity. It would stretch, you know, saying that it wasn't. That would be a little bit hard in some of those situations.

[J. King]

Now you were raised Catholic.

[Kelly Chase]

Yes.

[J. King]

Now, the experience you had didn't necessarily invoke any specific iconography or religious details that were tied to your cultural upbringing. Is that true?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, for the most part, I will say that I had a real sense, like I was talking about, you know, Paul, the case of Paul in the New Testament. Like, I saw that. Which is strange. I don't mean that to say that I see myself as being that kind of a character. But like, it was. It felt related to me in a way as something that I needed to understand.

[J. King]

I'm sorry, when you say you saw that you saw what had happened to Paul or you saw the same thing that Paul had seen, Like I saw.

[Kelly Chase]

What happened to Paul. I mean, who knows if that's what I actually saw?

[J. King]

But that was how you interpreted it.

[Kelly Chase]

That was what I was made to understand. I was looking at. And so, yeah, it wasn't really steeped in any particular religious iconography. But I feel what I encountered, like, I don't. I try not to like, put a name on that entity or what that is. Cause I try to be kind of radically open minded about these things. But of all of the things kind of in the grand pantheon of things that we talk about in this field, it felt most like maybe an angel. Like it had that kind of a. What I would imagine that presence would be, like, very powerful, but also very peaceful and very familiar. Interesting.

[J. King]

Yeah, I'm always curious, like. Cause I understand that people that have like, schizophrenic episodes, they're typically culturally based, to my understanding. Like people that are born within a Catholic or Christian tradition, they'll, you know, typically say, like, oh, I'm Jesus or something like that. And then people within, like a Hindu tradition, they might see like, Ganesh and a Muslim tradition, they Might see Allah or Muhammad, peace be upon them, or, you know, something will happen and it'll be connected to their culture. I'm curious, in the experiencer group, I'm sure you have a litany of people that all come from different faith backgrounds and different cultures. Do you find that their experiences are tethered in some way to their cultural upbringing, or do they seem like pure aberrations from whatever their cultural origin is?

[Pat Price]

It's a both and situation. I see both quite a bit. And for example, we were just talking about Jeff Kripal, Dr. Jeff Kripal, brilliant academic. He's written just books after books after books about this stuff. And his actual first experience, I love this one, he grew up in a kind of Judeo Christian situation and he was in Italy or. No, he was in India. He was in India and he saw and he had a vision that felt incredibly real to him where like a non human intelligence visited him and it appeared as the Indian God Kali to him. And he is not. He's not Hindu, he doesn't follow any Indian religions. He just happened to be there. And it was a profound experience with all the cultural trappings of a mystical experience that would be more likely to be experienced by a South Asian person. Right. And that's interesting. And for whatever reason, that that was not of his culture and that it had all of these trappings, all of that kind of window dressing that he wouldn't have, he wasn't even aware of really at that time. That was kind of what he calls the flip, the kind of ontological flip where you go from being an NPC or you go from being. Having your normal consensus reality viewpoint, and then you go into being like, oh, shit, the world is a lot weirder than they told us about in school. Like, profoundly weirder. And that happens to so many different people in so many different ways at so many different levels. And it can happen with somebody seeing something in the sky. It could happen with somebody feeling like they were visited by an Indian deity, you know, and in certain situations like this, like with Jeff, if he would have seen Jesus Christ, he may not have flipped, kind of according to him, because the part of the flip was that it was not his culture. And I mean, it was a profound experience. But the underline there was that it would not be the cultural overlay like you're talking about. That would be in a lot of situations of schizophrenia and other illnesses.

[Kelly Chase]

I think that's valid. Something that. I think this makes me a little heretical in the UFO community because I Think that because it took us so long to kind of get taken seriously on any level. Right. Like, we're still not being taken super seriously, but kind of like they're talking about it in Congress. Right. And I think that people really want to separate this stuff from religion and from spirituality and from. And from those concepts. And I think that's a mistake. Like, I really think it's a mistake. These things have profound impacts on people. There's direct parallels between spiritual and mystical experiences and these sort of anomalous experiences that people have related to UFO craft and also not related to those things. And I think that religions and those concepts that we have. This appears to be something that's been going on for a very long time. And we have, in some ways, modernity is this kind of aberration, this kind of especially Western modernity in the United States. Like, this idea that we have that there really is just, you know, there was this billiard ball universe where enough stuff knocked into each other for enough time that, like, somehow stuff started waking up and thinking and talking to each other, but then when you die, it's just over. Like, that's a very, very new idea and one that's shared by, like, almost no other culture throughout human history and our understanding of the numinous and of the divine and of the things that are kind of just beyond this world. You know, religion is the way that we've always kind of grappled with that and where we've contained the stores of knowledge that we do have about these things that are so hard to name and so hard to understand. And, you know, in our show, that was like, Courtney, he talks about it even more in episode three. But, like, that was why his voice was so important to us. Not just because his story is so exceptional, but also because for him, he sees all of these things. Like, he is a man of God. He is a Christian. That's a huge part of his life and of his family's life. Like, his mom is a minister. You know, he comes from a long line of ministers. And so all of this for him is. That is the lens through which he understands and integrates his own profound experiences. And we wanted to show that because, you know, a lot of people are religious and a lot of people do, and in this country, a lot of people are Christian. And I don't think it's at all invalid to approach these things through that lens. I think it's important to also understand that what we're dealing with, if you just. Just reduce it and say like it's an angel and so it's only that or it's a demon and it's only that. And there's nothing else we need to learn about it and there's nothing else that could be known. I think that can be a mistake. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad lens to use. I think it's the lens we've used for. It's imperfect as any of them are, but like it's the one we've used for a very long time.

[Pat Price]

And if nothing else, I think one of the aspects of that that's really important. I really appreciate you saying that. Kelly is that is also just that. But like she's saying we get so used to this physicalist mentality and we get so used to the way that we're supposed to talk about stuff to sound like we're making sense and to sound like we're schooled and to sound like we're smart and to sound like we're educated. And part of that involves like, oh, I grew up with religion or I grew up with spirituality, or I grew up with these ideas. But now that I'm an educated person, like I'm just going to cut off whatever that is. But one aspect of this is that a lot of this stuff happens at the edges of our perception like we were talking about earlier. And we know that we have these imperfect, flawed bodies that have just a lens like she's talking about over all of our senses. We can't smell as well as a dog can, we can't see like a butterfly can. Like, you know, it's. If we could just kind of go around and mutate our bodies to what other animals around us see or feel or hear, it would seem superhuman to us or very different to us. And we need to start looking probably at many of these states because what if this is about perceptual interface? And if we can't use the language that's already there, if we can't use some of these frameworks, if we can't. If we have no frameworks to point at, but we do, we have this history that goes beyond cultures. And there are some terms and some frameworks and some useful thoughts there that we can grab back to and be like, actually people have been in this weird interfacing state at times in a relatively universal way for thousands of years. So whether we're talking about an actual physical, non human intelligence that's coming here from another planet or another dimension or another extra tempestrially, as Mike Masters likes to talk about other things like this. Maybe we get so used to the way that we deal with each other, but we don't know how other beings would relate to each other. And maybe what this edge state is is more native to a cornucopia, like a whole ecology of other beings or other intelligences that could be out there.

[J. King]

Right? Yeah. I think that's one thing that Cosmosis does a really good job of, is that it kind of references maybe tangentially this schism within the UFO community. And it's something that I sense as being very much a casual that just sort of likes to dip in, but I'm not entrenched in it. The way you guys are is that you have these hardcore craft people that seem like, okay, there are craft and it's material and they're coming in from a different solar system or some type of different galaxy, and they're entering in through this high tech. And then you have sort of almost a more spiritual consciousness side. And perhaps it's both. Perhaps they're different things, I don't know. But the sense I got from Cosmosis, which for some reason is something that I think resonates more with me, is like, this is potentially something that's more to do with like, consciousness and how we interact with consciousness. That's the sense I got. I don't know if that's what you intended, but like, you know, the way that, like, Courtney's experience was not, you know, some type of like, gray that showed up to him, like, you know, fucking, go, go buy your family's house. Like, as the way it would be shown in, like, film. And again, not to discount those gray experiences, but his seemed much more in line with kind of the way I feel in terms of, like, my spiritual journey and stuff like that. And it also, I think, opens up room for other types of, you know, high strangeness experiences, whether it's, you know, precognition or, you know, telepathy or, you know, even like reincarnation to some extent. Like children with past lives and stuff like that. Yeah, that perhaps these are all sort of like different little aberrations of consciousness that I find, you know, very interesting, especially coming from like a religious tradition. Like, I was talking to someone about the telepathy tapes and he's a hardcore Christian guy and he was like, ah, I don't know if I buy it. And I was like, how do you pray?

[Kelly Chase]

Right, right.

[J. King]

And he was like, well, I think it. Oh, because like, we're saying telepathy as a way for, you know. And I think typically when people say telepathy, they're talking about, you know, inter human communication, non verbal through the mind. But if you're communicating with God through prayer, that's kind of telepathy. It's just sort of a semantic difference. Sure. So. And everyone genuinely that I've talked to that has had these experiences, they say that they've telepathically communicated. And friends with past life regressions. Like, I telepathically communicated with energy. Your experiences. I telepathically communicated with a gray. Like even your experience. I telepathically downloaded something from this entity. I didn't see. That is an element that's a part of all of it. And then even my friends, I've talked to people that are like big rave drug people, and they're like, I've done drugs with my friends. And we've thought the same thing. And we're like, did you say that? And we're like, I didn't say it. Did you say it? Why did we think the same thing? So I don't know. I think it kind of opens up a broader umbrella totally. Now, I'd mentioned to you before that I spoke with. He's not technically an exorcist. He was a former cop that dealt with an exorcist and was an assistant. He's a devout Catholic that would kind of go to be an assistant that he had. You know, he was sort of an unwavering New York, you know, Italian cop. Yeah, he's awesome. He wrote a book actually, called Beware the Night that became a film called Deliver Us from Evil.

[Pat Price]

Oh, cool.

[J. King]

Which was a very popular movie. Like, I haven't seen it independently. I had friends being like, oh, yeah, I saw that movie. I didn't know it was a book. This guy Ralph Sarchie is the man. He's awesome. But he comes from a staunch Catholic tradition of, you know, there is the angelic and there's the demonic. And when I told him about some of your experiences, he was a little bit like, oh, I don't know. It seems a little.

[Pat Price]

Seems because a little demony.

[J. King]

And the thing that I think underpinned it because again, he's not one of these people that, like, you know, ghosts are all evil and, you know, poltergeists are all demonic. He's like, it could just be a lost soul that's in limbo in some type of purgatory state that hasn't, you know, communicated with God fully. Or. Or it could be angelic. He Says typically, you can tell based off of the fruits. So if the outcome is positive, that was kind of like his general litmus. He had a more specific one to say, ask them if they profess the name of Jesus Christ, and if they say no, then this is a demonic entity. And if they say yes, then it's angelic. And that was his litmus. So I'm curious. The thing that I think tipped him off to say, like, I don't know about this, was that your experience was traumatic. It wasn't a positive experience that you were, correct me if I'm wrong, like, angry about this experience, that you had been removed from a safe place for you and that you had been probed and that there was a traumatic sort of violation of your autonomy. And he would. He said that that could be an indication that it's some somehow negative. So I'm curious. I'm sure people have brought this up to you. What is your take as far as, like, what his belief as far as the demonic goes? What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you about an amazing service known as BlueChew. That's right. BlueChew is a service that basically delivers this chewable tablet to your door whenever you want, once a week, once a month. I don't even know if they could do it that frequently, but they'll send it right to your door. You don't have to go to the doctor and have some awkward conversation with some guy in a lab coat, some dude that's judging you, probably, if I had to guess, with Bluechew, it's super discreet. The packaging is discreet. It's just a couple questions on their website. And they will send you chewable tablets that have basically the same active ingredients as, like, a Viagra or a Cialis, but at the fraction of the cost and in a chewable form. It's great. It truly is. I mean, one time I was in the woods and we were cold, and everyone. It was raining, and I pitched a tent with the help of Bluechew, and everyone gathered under it, and we were safe. And it saved me and a lot of lonely people. So if you're interested in BlueChew, here's how you get it. You're gonna go to BlueChew.com and use the promo code. Gagnon. That's right. G, A, G, N, O, N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code. I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're gonna Receive your first month for free. That's right. BlueChew.com, use the promo code. Gagnon. Check it out. Bluechew. Let's get back to the show.

[Pat Price]

Yeah, I appreciate the question very much. And it remains kind of a subject of ongoing debate and constructive thought within the culture of ufology and within the culture of anomalous experience. And specifically kind of like what people think of as, like, abductee culture. And, you know, it's a very small subset. And to some people, including myself, there's also the time factor. You know, we were kind of talking about it earlier, where these weird meat suits that perceive time. And then when we get into this edge state, somehow there's a timelessness that often happens, or people can see a little bit forward or back or time. What is the present moment seems to be perceptually different. One's grasp of what the present moment is can somehow be bigger. And along those lines, yeah, those situations felt very traumatic at the time, and they were very scary. And I didn't sleep with a light off until I was 30 years old or something like that. For the most part, there are a lot of hypervigilance, me making sure all the doors were locked and things like that that weren't even necessarily rational within the scheme of what was happening there, which is that there's this crazy powerful intelligence that's beyond our technology that can go wherever they want, whether it's a nuclear base, like in the situation of Mario woods in the first episode of Cosmosis, or whether it's in people's bedrooms like Whitley Strieber's or mine or others. Right? So even within, even outside of that scope and within that scope right now, here I am, and years later, and what happened to me then, now I'm hanging out with Mark and I'm hanging out with Kelly. And my life is a trip in one of the most beautiful ways that I could ever imagine. And I'm surrounded at the experiencer group with other people that have had a range of wild experiences and they have a lot to share. And then, then we have friends like Whitley or friends like Jeff or Elizabeth Crone, or so many other people, Mike Clelland, so many other people in the field that I feel gifted, that I know some of the brightest minds in the world in this subject. And it's like if that traumatic shit hadn't happened and I hadn't processed it and integrated it and taken the time and then. And kind of felt motivated and felt kind of driven to do something about it we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation right now. And the same would be true for Kelly and you know, and you know, we all. And so on the one hand, yeah, like, what are the fruits of it? And like, when it comes down to it, here I am. And it took a long fucking time, but now the fruits of it are amazing.

[Kelly Chase]

I will say as a non abductee that abductees, having gotten become close with Jay and other people who identify the same, are some of the sweetest and most kind and compassionate people that you will ever meet. I think that there's going through that kind of trauma and coming out on the other side of it. I mean there's like, with trauma, not everyone gets so lucky, but the people who are able to integrate it, to find community, to find meaning and to move past it are just universally. It's striking to me that they are both some of the smartest and the kindest people that I know. And I don't think it would be that way without the trauma, to be honest. Sorry.

[Pat Price]

Yeah, no, I mean, I would probably be a raging asshole.

[J. King]

No, trauma is definitely a forming force. Absolutely. I mean, I've heard people say that human beings are just a collection of their trauma. It can invoke a lot of empathy and great therapists to typically have gone through terrible experiences. But yeah, I don't know, I just, I question. I've never experienced anything of this sort in any capacity. Like very like tangential things sometimes, you know, like drug induced or, you know, like perhaps like precognitive dreams from people that I know, but never anything that myself has experienced. So it's difficult. And I also have no interest in having an experience.

[Kelly Chase]

It's honestly probably for the best not to. It's actually something that Jeff Kripel says a lot. He's like, you know, you probably don't want to. When talking about the flip, he's like, you know, you might not want to flip.

[J. King]

I have no interest. I like to entertain these things intellectually. But the experience, I think about your experience often. Like the idea of like a door opening or like some type of portal or something is like very, very strange.

[Kelly Chase]

Without that, you still have a sense though, of which I find interesting. Right. Because I had to go through something like that to kind of get the sense that there was something beyond. Right. But like you're, I believe, a religious person. Right. And like you. So you have that. You might not have had these like, you know, some slap you up the side of the head kind of experience, but at the same time you seem to have, there's some sense that you have, right, that there's something beyond just your day to day.

[J. King]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not necessarily materialist in that sense. Like I believe like the power of prayer and I believe that there is some type of, you know, creator of the universe. Like those things seem pretty certain to me, which I've I guess maybe intellectually rationalized through like the contingency argument or like the Kalam cosmological argument. Like, like things are necessary, contingent and that is add reductive all the way back to the first necessary thing which is what created everything and why does anything exist even in the first place? These are unanswerable questions for an atheist or a religious person. I think we can speculate, but to me that draws me to say that I think there is some type of force that created all things. What that is. Exactly. I happen to follow the Catholic tradition because that's what I was raised in. And it feels very comfortable to me. I'm also profoundly moved by the life and gospels of Christ. I find them to be the fruits of that I think are remarkable. So that is what has been helpful for me. But I'm kind of one of these people. It's like I kind of just want people to embrace the idea that there is existence beyond what is material here on earth, whether that's Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or even just type of some type of non structured religiosity or spiritualism to say there's something else out there and we should be good to each other. I think that's a general good underpinning that the world could probably take on.

[Pat Price]

More of absolutely ontological promiscuity.

[J. King]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't know. I find that to be, to be helpful, but I do sometimes get scared of like, like I remember I watched a movie with my mom when I was a kid and like the Virgin Mary had appeared. Like obviously in Catholic tradition there's all the types of Marian apparitions that have Our lady of Guadalupe that appeared to Juan Diego in Mexico. And I remember seeing it and being so terrified by this, which again this is like the Blessed Mother, like, like, you know, perhaps like one of the most divine figures in all of Catholicism, aside from like the Triune God. And I was like, I don't want this to happen. And my mom, I asked my mom was like, can you pray that Mary doesn't visit me? And my mom like laughed. She was like sure. And she was like, hey God. Just like don't send any angels, don't send anything to Mark. Let's just leave the. You know, that's fine. But I still do have a. I am drawn to it. And I think that there's unanswerable questions, which is why, like cosmosis because at the end of episode one, it doesn't say like there are aliens, they're coming here from this nebula Reticuli or whatever. It's like. It is more of an interface with consciousness, which I read Jacques Vallee's book, which we spoke about before, and that again, kind of reaffirmed these things that have been happening for a long time. And maybe all of these things are kind of describing the same thing, which is that consciousness is perhaps non local. It's not some type of thing that's created in our brain. And you can look at this part of the hippocampus or the frontal cortex and say, oh, that's where the consciousness is. Like the hard problem, problem that Chalmers points out. But again, it makes me question, like, all right, so what is this whole thing of consciousness? And I like the research and the work you guys are doing because I wonder if it ties in the whole puzzle, parts of the puzzle, like it adds threads to it. I don't discount the experiences that either of you had because I do think it says something about consciousness in some way. And I don't know what way that is, but. Have you read Galileo's Heir? Are you familiar with this book? It's an excellent book. You guys should check it out. It basically, I forget the author's name. Croesus. If you wouldn't mind pulling that up. I should give this guy a shout out. I'm only partially the way through. But basically he says that Galileo's era is like the way he constructs a definition of consciousness and that he kind of promotes a sort of panpsychism approach to consciousness, that it is sort of non local. It is this thing that kind of exists outside of us that we interface with. And sometimes people's attentives to that consciousness can be completely, you know, perhaps, dare I say, abnormal in the case of like, you know, people with non verbal autism that is like an aberration of, you know, development and they have an ability to tap in with this consciousness in some way that, you know, the, you know, what is it neurotypical person wouldn't have. I don't know, like, I'm curious, like in terms of broad consciousness, how do your experiences and the people that you work with and the experiencer Group, Group. What does it say about consciousness? Do you have a theory of consciousness that works well with your experiences? Just broadly speaking? How do you define that?

[Pat Price]

You want to tackle that one first?

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. It's a tough one. I don't know that I have. Mine is very, very broad. I have this kind of understanding that consciousness is somehow cosmic, that it's beyond us, that what we're experiencing here is some sort of filtered down version of ultimate reality, that there's something bigger than this. And I don't really know what that means, but I do think that the way you're talking about it, I actually really resonate with. In terms of how you think about anomalous experiences, where I think that certain people have anomalous hardware or anomalous software that causes them to experience things that are kind of outside of the. But there's a bell curve of human experience and there's people experiencing things on either end of that bell curve that are very different from everything else. But at the same time, I think that human beings in general have this capacity in varying degrees. I don't discount at all that. I think it's very interesting that you have this sense that there is the unmoved mover, that there is a creator God, that there is something outside of this life, that there is such a thing as good, not in a relativistic kind of way, but in a greater way. That there is something that is good and that we're able to know what that is. I mean, this is a capacity that goes beyond what your dog or whatever has human beings. And we have this sense of something beyond ourselves. And whether you're a hardcore experiencer or someone who's never really had an anomalous experience, we all have this capacity to understand this world beyond ours. And we also are limited in our ability to really know what. What lies beyond this life. And so I think that when you look at the broad spectrum of what people experience, that you can. I think it's really interesting to approach it anthropologically and to just look at, you know, not get too tied down to any particular idea, but to look at all of it and compare it to what your own experience is. And to say, like, you know, okay, what do I think about what? You know, I think Jay and I are very not invested in anyone believing anything in particular. And particularly, like, I'm not invested in proving anything that's happened to me. I just think it's. I want people to feel more comfortable talking about the Weird things that have happened to them. Because I know how isolating it can be when you can't. And I do actually think there's a lot of value for us as a species to be taking these kinds of fringe experiences, if not literally, at least more seriously, so that we can understand a little bit more. Because, like, we go around and we live our lives like we know what's going on here, what are we doing? Like, we don't know what's going on here. We don't know what's happening. We don't know what this is all about. You know, like, they gave us a credit score and convinced us that, like, all of this is as it should be. We don't know what's going on.

[J. King]

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with that. I mean, do you do have thoughts about the consciousness question?

[Pat Price]

I do. You know, I think that. I mean, you brought up the telepathy tapes and we know Kai and Jen, who have done such an admirable job working on that show, and you know, what you brought up earlier there, that there are these non. Nonverbal autistic folks, children, adults that are seemingly able to not just read people locally, especially loved ones, people that they're connected with, parents and siblings and things like this. And they talk about that on the show a bit, but then with each other in this consciousness field, in this kind of projected space. And like we were talking about earlier with, say, where Elizabeth Crone went or where Kelly went in that vision, how she kind of like rose up and went somewhere. Where do these or, like, out of body experiences, people have this strange sense of feeling, vibrating, like, vibrating. And then kind of their consciousness or what they think of as their soul or something like that will sometimes leave their body. Right. And kind of float around and this astral projection and. Yeah, and then. And then there are different. People have different classifications for different ways that you can access these other realms. And I don't really know exactly what that is, but the idea that our brains are not the source of everything and that we're somehow in communion with a consciousness field that pervades that is something that there's just a lot of. And if it's not literally true, there is such an amount of anecdotal reportage in so many different situations that point towards that. That, like, I went somewhere or, like I was in this state and I was able to talk to somebody else in this place, and then we were able to confirm it later on. And things like this, like what you hear about in the telepathy tapes. This is actually more common than. Than one might think. And then just the idea of being able to access that state in some way without having the corroborative power of bringing somebody else or meeting somebody else there, but coming back and being profoundly shifted by it. I think I'm also reminded about. We talk about remote viewing on the show, and this is something that world governments have spent millions of dollars studying, which is the capacity for somebody in deep, deep concentration to be able to remotely view something that's happening in another town and across the world. And some of the people that have been very gifted in that degree, like, say, with the Stargate program or with the Stanford Research Institute program, the original program, There's a guy named Pat Price there who people. He died very suddenly, and it seemed very suspicious when he passed. But he was one of the most gifted remote viewers that anybody's ever documented. And he would be tasked to. And he wouldn't even know where he was getting tasked. He would see coordinates or something like this. He'd look at them, and he'd just zone out. And there are reports of him being able to kind of cyclically be in a classified environment in Russia, for example, and being able to psychically look through file cabinets and being able to read documents verbatim, physical pieces of paper that were across the world. And is this government disinformation? Is it like. It could be.

[J. King]

Was he utilized by government agencies?

[Pat Price]

Yes, he was utilized. Like, the CIA was very involved with the Stanford Research Institute program. It was run by a guy named Cal Puthoff, another guy named Russell Targaryen, and it was overseen by this guy named Christopher Green, who is kind of an elusive figure within the realms of consciousness studies. And as we say in the show a little bit, there's a lot of inconvenient overlap, again, with these people that have been involved in government programs for decades that look at consciousness studies, look at these edge states, look at things like remote viewing, and also are very, very interested in subjects like UFOs. Yeah.

[J. King]

Are you familiar with the Pendulum Institute that was utilized by the Nazis in World War II?

[Pat Price]

I'm not.

[Kelly Chase]

I've heard of it, but I don't have to.

[J. King]

This might be something interesting to look into. And again, I will kind of explain this from when we talk about, like, ontological promiscuity, I'm also promiscuous with skepticism. Okay. So, like, that is a part of, like, the worldview that I flirt with.

[Kelly Chase]

Skepticism. Skepticism is important.

[J. King]

I'll kind of lay this out in sort of A like a novel, non, I guess maybe like a non psychic, a non psychic worldview. But basically near the end of World War II, Heinrich Himmler, which was a sort of right hand man to Adolf Hitler, was running. He was like fascinated with the occult and of it seems like the Third Reich and like, you know, the ss, he was like the highest ranking person that was obsessed with this. And Hitler seems to like in his early days was kind of interested, but later was less interested. And a lot of this is documented by Michael Kurlander down at Stetson, who wrote about this in a book called Hitler's Monsters and is exploring the occult as it relates to the Nazis and Third Reich. And basically there's a turning point in the war where British battleships were sinking German U boats in the Atlantic. And Heinrich Himmler said they must be knowing about our coordinates in some way that is beyond military technology. They must be doing remote viewing. So as a result they created a counter, and this is documented. They created a counter group known as the Pendulum Institute, basically to combat this and that. They were trying to use remote viewing for military targets in World War II. They actually at one point put many people that claimed to have psychic abilities, seers, clairvoyance, into concentration camps and then pulled them out of concentration camps to do this work and basically said, if you can be successful in this, we will free you and liberate you from these concentration camps. They pulled them out, they put them into these groups. Heinrich Himmler claims that they were actually able to liberate Mussolini after the Ally invasion of Sicily and that he was captured and put into a place called the Mars Mountains. The Hars Mountains, I forget exactly the name, but he was in an unknown base. And they were able to liberate him, he claims, through a remote viewer that told them the coordinates of this person.

[Pat Price]

Amazing.

[J. King]

And they claimed that they were able to do other types of military strategy and movements based off of the information for the remote viewers. Some of the people that were conducting the research later wrote in diaries afterwards, like, oh, all that stuff was nonsense, it didn't lead to anything. Himmler was just crazy and wanted us to go find Thor's Hammer and stuff like this. He was just out of his mind. But he was a believer so he put us to task to do it. But really it was a guy in an airplane that flew over and saw the base and that's how we liberated him. So Kurtlander's research, which he believes that it was, you know, Himmler was a crazy person that was using this stuff for his own personal interest. Other people will look at it and say, like, well, maybe because I think in the initial diary entries from some of these folks that were doing the research that they were kind of on board, like, wait, is this working? This is bizarre. Like you can imagine the Germans being like, what? Something non engineering that's working. This is crazy. And that that was a documented use of remote viewing even in World War II. That the results of that, I guess are inconclusive, perhaps. But again, another just interesting sort of thread in this large fabric of why are at the time the most technologically advanced armies in the world using this sort of parapsychological tool to try to advance their military gain? Is it possible it's just low cost, high impact, but they just kind of threw something at the wall because they were losing the war? Perhaps. Is it possible that it was useful? I don't know, but it's just a very strange little thread.

[Pat Price]

It's fascinating stuff. I gotta look more into that.

[J. King]

Yeah, yeah, it's very bizarre.

[Kelly Chase]

I will say something I say about remote viewing a lot actually is that I think for people who haven't had anomalous experiences and are looking for kind of a pathway in to try to experience something, that's maybe not too crazy, right?

[Pat Price]

Maybe not for you, Mark?

[J. King]

Yeah, I'm good.

[Kelly Chase]

But that remote viewing is actually kind of a good place to start because you can just get books, you can take classes. But even just with a book, I was able to. I was able to get hits that were convincing enough to me that, I mean, I'm in no danger of being recruited as a psychic spy anytime soon. And it's interesting, I think, the way people, when you experience it, you realize that remote viewing isn't maybe quite what you thought. Like, I know I kind of felt like I was going to have these like very specific images in my mind. And that's not. The information kind of comes in in a different way. But it's easy enough that almost most, the vast majority of people that I've talked to who have put any kind of real time and effort into learning how to do it, and by which I mean a few hours, not like days and days, get enough results that it changes the way they see the world.

[Pat Price]

Yeah, yeah. And I've seen that definitely being the case, I've seen that with dozens, dozens and dozens of people. And. And there's something to it. I mean, there's just a lot of documentation that there's a fundamental reality to remote viewing. And again, we don't know why that is, but pointing towards this idea of there being some kind of consciousness field and. Or that you can get into this kind of more cosmic or more unified or this consciousness field state and that it could still have tethers to physical reality somewhere else, that you could kind of travel via this and then kind of drop down in this kind of overlaid way. I don't know how this is possible. I don't know why it's possible. We can't even necessarily agree on a fundamental definition for what consciousness is. Right. But there does seem to be something to that field, or if we can call it that even.

[J. King]

And people experience it all the time. Right. Like, again, anecdotally, you're thinking of someone and then they call you. Or vice versa. Like, that's just perhaps a weird coincidence or perhaps there's some type of interconnected thing happening. I mean, Rupert Sheldrake's research of people being aware when they're being stared at, it's very strange. Like, which, again, you could look and say, like, oh, that's a very helpful biological mechanism that you can tell when you're being stared at.

[Pat Price]

Mere neuron transmitters.

[J. King]

It's bizarre, but it's like, how is that seeping into the consciousness of the person being observed? How do they have above chance odds of knowing that they're being observed? And then, obviously, the Gansfeld telepathy experiments that are discussed in telepathy tapes, that in this one specific instance, they were able to actually have a viewer and a perceiver in separate bodies. It's just, again, very strange. A lot of this is discussed in telepathy tapes, which is why it's top of mind for me.

[Kelly Chase]

Well, and it makes you wonder if maybe it's something that we lost, like, our capacity that we, like, under. We're not. You know, if you don't use it, you lose it kind of a thing. Because when you look at something like the way that, you know, a flock of birds moves together or a school of fish or. And you see that there seems to be this way that they're all kind of having the same thought at the same time as they're, you know, they're moving in this way that feels very orchestrated, and none of them seems uncertain about where they're supposed to go. And it makes you. You know, our lives aren't set up where we're so. I mean, we're all interconnected and we all need each other in certain ways. But, like, we. We're getting con. You know, increasingly isolated, even just sitting Here I've been like, gosh, I really like doing an interview with somebody that's like, actually here.

[J. King]

You know, that's the only way I do it.

[Kelly Chase]

It creates a whole other vibe. That's really nice.

[J. King]

Absolutely.

[Kelly Chase]

And you wonder if maybe we haven't lost. Like if we were, maybe we had more of that capacity. I mean, that's just pure speculation. But if we were, you know, hunter gatherers and you know, like, maybe you're out the men, I wouldn't be there.

[J. King]

But gathering, get some berries or something.

[Kelly Chase]

But, you know, you guys are out doing, hunting a gazelle or whatever it is, you know, maybe I wouldn't be doing.

[J. King]

I'd be gathering with you.

[Pat Price]

You seem like you could get down with a.

[Kelly Chase]

You know, I mean, I, I'm sturdy.

[J. King]

Yeah, I've seen brave. You know, you have a brave energy. Like you can, you could be nice with a bow and arrow.

[Kelly Chase]

Right? Exactly. I'm a good axe thrower.

[J. King]

Yeah.

[Kelly Chase]

So who knows what I could have been capable of. But I mean, maybe that was an ability that we had or more of it, a connection with each other, but now our lives just aren't really set up that way. And also if you don't have the expectation, you know, if you don't expect that you're going to be able to hear your bro's thoughts, maybe then you can't.

[J. King]

That's an interesting part of that. Sorry to interrupt if you want to add to that, but I just. It's one of those things also that. But from a skeptic point of view, you could say, oh, of course, people that have an interest in this, like you're doing UFO research and then something happens, or a religious person is deeply entrenched in the religion and then they see something.

[Kelly Chase]

Right.

[J. King]

And then you have pure materialist atheists that say, like, you know, what we can measure is what's real and nothing ever out of the ordinary happens to them. I, I asked this to my exorcist friend that I was talking to and I was like, isn't that strange that you know this? It's, you know, people that have never experienced anything, never experienced anything, people that expect to do. And from the skeptic point of view, it's like, well, of course if you believe it, you'll see it kind of thing. But then his perspective again was like, no, because he's coming from a very Catholic, demonic, good versus evil kind of paradigm. He says, well, if you desire for people to not be believing in the spiritual and that if you don't want them to be believing in this sort of non local consciousness, let's say you're a demon, perhaps that you would not want to reveal yourself to someone that already doesn't believe in God. God. So he says that it is the tool of the demonic, again his words, to only appear and interface with people. And again a tool of the angelic to only interface with people that already believe and that they wouldn't want to disrupt the sort of the heroine of non belief that you're kind of placated with what you can see and measure. And again, not to say that people that experience things are demonic, but that was his perspective, that that by believing in something it actually lends to that idea that you can interact, that you can pray for something and then things happen because you are doing the first movement.

[Kelly Chase]

Well, it's like the placebo effect, right? I mean, we give it that name and we feel like it happens in a lab, so it must all. But I mean, the placebo effect is spooky as hell. We know that to the point that we have to control for it in drug trials. That if you think that you are given a medicine that's gonna make you better, we have to literally control for that. Because there are people who will be given a sugar pill who will get better.

[J. King]

Yeah. Isn't that bizarre?

[Kelly Chase]

Right. And so we know this is a real thing. And in, you know, people like Dean Radin who do kind of parapsychological research, things that they have to control, they have to control for stuff like that. And they can find by like controlling all the variables and running it over and over again that actually, yes, if you believe that psi phenomena is possible, you are better at it. And people who don't believe in it are pretty, pretty bad at it. And something that was really interesting from a conversation I had with Dean Radin is that to create those controls is actually the hardest part of putting an experiment together. Because the control group that they need for that is somebody who's never had an anomalous experience, who doesn't know anyone, like close to them and their family or whatever, who's had an anomalous experience and who like, doesn't and who just doesn't believe in them at all. And finding somebody who hasn't had an anomalous experience and who doesn't have anybody in their family who has reported having an anomalous experience is very difficult. It turns out like those are the weirdos.

[J. King]

That's very funny. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. I feel like most people know someone at least that they're like, oh, yeah, I have a friend that, you know some strange stuff has happened to him.

[Pat Price]

Yeah.

[Kelly Chase]

But just that amount of. That amount of, like, I know somebody and, like, I don't know for sure what happened to him, but, like, I don't know. Seems not crazy to me. Just that amount is enough to impact the results.

[J. King]

Right.

[Pat Price]

And the way we use language in a situation like that is so creepy and funny. And that in lab environments, we have to control for the factor of the spooky, magical power of beliefs. You know what I mean? And then that's like, something we have to write into something, but somehow all this stuff is fake. However, we have to control for the placebo effect, which is, again, the spooky, magical power of belief.

[J. King]

Yeah.

[Pat Price]

What does that mean?

[J. King]

Dogs are susceptible to placebo. I had read something somewhere. This is maybe apocryphal, so correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry. But it was something to the effect that they had done placebo trials with dogs and that dogs. Again, I'm so hazy on the details of this. Christos, could you actually pull that up if you're able to? Dog placebo study. But yeah, it was just one of these interesting things where it's like they were doing this research with dogs and they were getting better despite not giving. Doing. Getting medicine and that it was affecting that. It's like, how is. I don't know.

[Pat Price]

It's all very easy.

[J. King]

But this is why I don't get too caught up with, like, the. The drone stuff in New Jersey that's been happening.

[Pat Price]

Yeah.

[J. King]

I, like, I look at this and I'm like, all right, it seems kind of interesting, but to me, that seems more like military tech than anything. But that's kind of my bias. I'm curious, what do you guys make of the. Oh, okay, let's. Let's look at this. Okay. Conditioned placebo effect. A study found that dogs can exhibit a conditioned placebo effect, which can be observed when a dog's behavior is affected by sedative drug conditioning. Interesting.

[Pat Price]

A decrease in seizure frequency. 79% of epileptic dogs had received a placebo. Had a decrease. And see, that's amazing.

[J. King]

How does that happen?

[Kelly Chase]

That's crazy. Our little friends.

[Pat Price]

Our little friends. Because they have unconditional love for us.

[J. King]

And they believe us. Yeah.

[Pat Price]

And then. And we're fucking liars.

[J. King]

Yeah.

[Pat Price]

The dogs lies, and then they believe them. And then they get better.

[J. King]

How crazy. How? Well, I mean, I need to look more into the study, but it's just so, so bizarre. But I'm. Yeah, I'm curious. The New Jersey drone thing, I mean, is that how. How does that resonate for you guys? Is that something you're like, oh, this is definitely. I know, again, UFO community is kind of schismatic in this way, but I'm curious what your personal thoughts are.

[Kelly Chase]

I mean, it's a crazy situation. It's. It's hard. It's crazy how hard it is to parse. I usually reserve judgment. I don't like to just jump on whatever the story of the day is. And I was like, I'll give it a week and I'll sound so smart that I waited until they gave a real answer. Right. And we don't have. We're not getting any closer and people are just kind of getting bored of it. Right. Which in some ways I almost wonder if that's not at least part of the point of it, if there's trying to get us used to seeing more stuff up in the sky and not necessarily even for some kind of, like, you know, UFO reason, but just, you know, for teetering on the brink of World War three type reasons. Right.

[J. King]

There's gonna be more testing going on or there's going to be, you know, foreign military. So it's all for whatever.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. Like maybe we need drones up there to be protecting us. Like maybe it's a domain awareness thing. I don't know. Like you could speculate all day. It does seem like there have been, particularly around military bases, some accounts that sound more anomalous, where we're dealing with things that sound more like an orb, like what Mario Wood saw at the beginning of our first episode of Cosmosis, like actually orbs like that over military bases and, you know, nuclear weapons sites or something that isn't new and is something that goes back a long time and that happened with increased frequency, you know, like the Foo Fighters during World War II or. There are a lot of famous cases at nuclear weapons sites during the Cold War. Like when the Cold War is getting hot, that kind of stuff would happen more. And so you have to. There does seem to be something like that going on that's kind of. Of probably related to in some way, but also separate from or at least the kind of more military tech side. Right.

[Pat Price]

Yeah. And there's a great book on that, by the way, for anybody interested, called UFOs and nukes by a guy named Robert Hastings. And it's very, very well researched and it's a commonly referenced tome within the field in terms of the preponderance. Like, what is up with UFOs? Kind of monitoring nuclear facilities and military facilities in general, but especially nuclear stuff. And as far as the recent drone stuff goes, I think we've only got a few more minutes left, right?

[J. King]

Yeah, but don't rush at all.

[Pat Price]

Cool. So I live in New Jersey. I live in Essex County. And the Sunday after Thanksgiving, I was driving back from Ohio with my partner, and we were driving through Morris county, and we're on the highway, and I look up and there is. Looks like a drone. Like, red and green lights, white lights, like a traditional drone. But it looked like it was between the size of a car and suv and it was kind of low. And I pointed out to my partner, and I was like, do you see that? And she was like, oh, yeah, it's a drone. And she was like, oh, but it's big. And I was like, yeah. And I'm stuck in traffic. It's the Sunday after Thanksgiving. It's one of the biggest traffic days of the year. Everybody's driving back from wherever the hell they moved away from after high school or whatever. And we're sitting there, and it's just, like, putting on a big show. And it looks huge and weird and boxy, and it kind of moves over to this field again. We're in Morris county, and there's just kind of this field off to the right. And she looks up and she's like, oh, there's another one. And she's able to see it more than I was then. The next day was actually. It was the first time that I'd seen it. She sent me a text message that had, like, a local Jersey report of people having reported from the highway. Like, we were, like, seeing these weird things up in the sky. And she was like, I think this is what we saw. And I was like, certainly looks like it. And then it just starts. There's just this crazy cascade. I mean, I'm not going to say there are a lot of people, and it probably wasn't. I know that for a fact, that it wasn't the first night. Looking back on it and having studied it afterwards, it wasn't the first night after the reports came in, but it was the next day that it started really making the news. And a couple weeks later, I mean, they'd gotten so pervasive that. That I was walking out in the town that I live in, and it's a very pedestrian town, you know, and, like, there's. And I live in Montclair. I live in Montclair. In Essex County. I'm not going to, like, make it a big weird mystery, but, like. So I was walking around and it's a very pedestrian, friendly town. There's people out all over, even when it's cold. It was a pretty cold night and it was a Friday. And I go out, I walk outside and with my partner, and she's like, holy shit, there's one again right there. And it's like almost seemingly directly above us. And then there's just a bunch of them. And I like, call or I texted Kelly right away and I took some. And of course, it's iPhone. It all looks like crap, you know what I mean? But I was like, there's something. And it's like right there. And you can hear my partner in the background. And these messages that I was sending to Kelly at the time, and they're like, there's another one. There's another. And you're just like.

[J. King]

And are you able to hear the.

[Pat Price]

Those ones I was not able to hear, but other ones that we saw, we were able to. We started walking around town and it was weird. It was like a freaking Steven Spielberg movie. Like, there's just people, like, stomped on the sidewalk going like. Like that. You know what I mean? It was like straight out of Close Encounter.

[J. King]

Are they making noise? Like, can you hear the propellers?

[Pat Price]

Like, when I was out on one street, there's a more commercial street, I was able to hear kind of hum and propellers on one of them.

[J. King]

And it sounded like what a drone would sound like.

[Pat Price]

Yeah. And there's differences here. I mean, there are some early sightings and they still persist these days where people will see, like, these weird amber orbs that don't have any control surfaces and behave very erratically and seem like intelligently controlled. But, you know, there's no hum. There's no nothing. There's no rotors. There's no FAA lights, compliant lights or anything like this. This did seem very conventional. None of the stuff that I saw seemed weird. It just seemed like a crazy big drone that I'd never seen before. And we're walking over to buy a bottle of wine for dinner. And the wine store guy, my wine store guy, again, it's like a Spielberg movie. The back door of the place is open. He's just in the parking lot, and he's like, they've been out all night, Jay. He's like, they've been out all night. And he's like, look, there's like four of them up there right now. I look and they look like they're just like they were going methodically. It was almost like you've got these giant lawnmowers in the sky. Just kind of like. It was like the whole town had, like, landscapers up in the sky or something like that.

[J. King]

So I think there's probably a bunch of things happening, right. There's probably people erroneously identifying bizarre lights as, like, a helicopter or an airplane or something. Then there's probably people that are seeing this trend happening and then sending their drone up and being like, oh, let's. Let's focus on people and send our drone around.

[Pat Price]

Absolutely.

[J. King]

And then there's perhaps people that are seeing weird lights that are truly unexplainable that they can't parse from the other things people are seeing. So part of me is like, okay, let's say there is some type of weird energy interference, whether, you know, some type of uap, some of unidentified thing. And the government's like, okay, well, we don't want people to be seeing these because we know there's going to be a bunch more that are coming out. So let's send our drones up to sort of act as a diversion. Perhaps it's military technology to say, like, hey, let's do some type of dome because we're testing for radiation from a nuclear bomb.

[Pat Price]

Totally.

[J. King]

Could it be a foreign government sending up a ship from the, you know, Atlantic to be like, all right, let's just. You, like a Chinese drone that's like, surveying and basically has a show of force against the US like, hey, you can't take down our. That one I'm kind of more skeptical on because I feel like the US Government would just absolutely murk those. But who knows? It's. It's all. Yeah, it's all very, very strange to me.

[Pat Price]

Yeah.

[Kelly Chase]

That doesn't seem to be one answer or an easy answer. I agree. I think there's a lot going on kind of simultaneously, and probably at least a certain part of it seems to be that we're supposed to be seeing them. Right. Like, the stuff that Jay is describing.

[J. King]

So obvious.

[Kelly Chase]

Yeah. Like, they're not trying to hide. They want to be seen, and that has to be at least part of it. And so either, you know, like, you're saying, is it a threat from some foreign adversary? And the intended audience for that is really the government. It doesn't seem like it. It seems like. And it seems. But it does feel like we're meant to be seeing them. And I do wonder if there isn't a part of it that's just like that they've had some stuff in the garage for a while that they're ready to get out, and they need us to get used to it. You know, even the early speculation about, like, it being, you know, something that's maybe searching for a weapon or, you know, some kind of trace of that, if you think about it, you would want to get us used to seeing those in the sky first. You wouldn't want to, like, tell us that you have that. And then. And it turns out, like, we see drones in the sky, and then every time there's drones in the sky over New York City, everybody's, like, running for the tunnel. You know what I mean?

[J. King]

There's some type of conditioning happening. Yeah.

[Kelly Chase]

So that we don't freak out when we see it.

[Pat Price]

I think that there's something along those lines. I mean, as you pointed out, some of the early stuff in Morris county, around there, some of the earliest stuff was seen over what people later recognized as a very secure facility called Picatinny Arsenal. And I don't know this for a fact, but apparently some of the staging that is done. I mean, I've heard this, that some of the staging for us giving weapons to Ukraine gets staged at Picatinny, among other places, before it gets sent off. It gets prepped there and then moved off. If that's true, then it adds a wrinkle to the situation. It doesn't necessarily point in one direction or the other. But a lot of the early questions, even from skeptical places, was like, okay, if there's a bunch of weird stuff in the sky, why New Jersey? Ha, ha, ha, New Jersey sucks. Or whatever. Right.

[J. King]

Which is also. Two things can be true.

[Pat Price]

Two things can be true. It can be a total both and situation. I like it. Personally, I like it. Essex County. I think it's great. But, yeah, there are other areas in New Jersey that I spend less time in. Right. In my situation. And around there, it was like, oh, it happened two nights, and then it was done for right there. But then there are other areas around there, like Picatinny Arsenal, and there's also a facility that's run by Lockheed Martin called Aegis, that the last time I was on the show, we were talking about domain awareness, and we were talking about the last congressional hearing, and there's a named Michael Shellenberger that walked in front of congressional representatives, and he was like, I've got this document, and it's about this domain awareness program, crazy radar system that we have where we've been detecting UAP and Siphoning those reports out. And there's some element of AI that we're using with this. And one of the related programs was something that we talked about before called Sentient. And then there's another program called Aegis that's run by Lockheed Martin, another domain awareness program that's very little is known about, but it's run by this major private military contractor. It came up in James Fox's movie. The program which recently came out, Aegis was named as something of interest where folks have been able to document uap, right? And Aegis is again, one of these hotspots. Most people didn't even know that Aegis was there, but it's another one of these hotspots where there's drones up in the sky. Well, does that mean that something is trying to figure out something about Aegis and Lockheed Martin? Or is this Lockheed Martin or it's something else, another program like that that is again throwing this stuff up in the sky essentially to maybe Red Team. There's this idea within banking and so many other situation and the military where you hire hackers and you hire people to try to attack your software, break your own software, and they red team it and then you see what you got, right? And there were recent reports like in the New York Times with the Ukraine, there's a big story, it's really fascinating about the kind of drone wars in Ukraine and Russia and how Ukraine started to change the game over there this last year because they started converting FPL drones, like these racing drones where you use these little goggles and the three $400 racing drones, they started turning those into kamikaze weapons and strapping bombs to them and zipping them under tanks and stuff like that. So they're able to take $1,000 worth of shit and blow up a $5 million tank or whatever, right? And the whole story was like, Russia and Ukraine have been in this fight, but Ukraine, Ukraine really started just training people over and over and over again and started really utilizing this stuff. And a lot of the point of that article was like, whoever has the best drones wins was kind of like one of the general truisms in this situation. And so if that's been really true within the theater of war within the last couple years, that that's been like a new revelation that they're good enough and that people are utilizing them. And so such a way, it does make a certain amount of sense to me. I'm not sure, but it does make an amount of sense to me that there would be A limited program where we would throw up some of. We meaning the National Security State, not me or Kelly or you would throw up some of the newfangled ones that they've got. Not tell anybody about it. Red team the facilities and then see what people report about. About it, see what people are able to discern about it. Because people say like, oh, I tried to bring them down with EMPs. That wasn't able to be possible. We shot at it, we weren't able to track it. And so there could be lots of confidential experimental stuff and it could be something conventional. It certainly looked conventional to me, like some of the stuff that was up there. And all I knew was I was seeing big, weird drones that I hadn't seen before.

[J. King]

Right. That's an interesting. It's an interesting hypothesis.

[Pat Price]

Yeah. This is fascinating, but I don't really know. I have no idea.

[J. King]

Jay Kelly, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. If people are more interested in hearing about you and your stories and the people you speak with about this specific topic, they can find you at your.

[Kelly Chase]

Podcast, which is the UFO Rabbit hole.

[J. King]

UFO rabbit hole, absolutely. They can check it out. Also on X, you're very active.

[Kelly Chase]

Yes, I'm very active on X. Yeah.

[J. King]

And then obviously the experiencer group with Jay. And then of course, Cosmosis, which is now. Right now, Apple TV is the best spot to see it.

[Kelly Chase]

Apple TV, Amazon Prime, YouTube, Google Play. And we're working on an option for international people because there's a lot of people outside of the US who also want to hear about this. So we are working as we speak on that. So hopefully in the next week or so we'll have an option.

[J. King]

That's amazing.

[Pat Price]

Yeah. Right now it's us, uk, Canada, Australia and a few other trains where you can find it. And we're going to be rolling it out towards the end of the month and other world.

[J. King]

Amazing. I really enjoyed it, genuinely. I had so much fun watching it. As someone that's sort of tacitly interested in trying to piece together how I feel about all this stuff, I thought it was a great introduction, definitely going to finish the series and I would encourage everyone else to check it out. Even if you are the most staunch materialist skeptic, it is just fun. It is just fun to watch the stories are fascinating and poke holes in it. Try to discredit the whole thing. I implore you. I think it'll be tougher than you imagine, but it was great. Thank you so much. It was almost as good as this. Conversation. I will say I enjoyed this. I enjoy having you guys here more than seeing you on the screen.

[Pat Price]

It's always better in person.

[J. King]

Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. I think we'll have to do this again.

[Pat Price]

Thank you.

[Kelly Chase]

Anytime.

[J. King]

If you've made it to the end of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest training, true communication, a highbrowed type of person that understands this History is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy, from the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today in History. Our free newsletter, Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything, and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description Today in History because history stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode. We'll see you next time.