← Camp Gagnon
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- [00:00]
A
I think someone was just in my brain. In 2022, I saw five UFOs in my backyard turned around. There's five lights in the sky, perfectly spaced. They just. Just took off. Things incrementally started to get really strange. Later that year, on October 14th, I was. I call it a mini abduction. After I'd given a talk at the International UFO Congress. I was taken out to this balcony. A complete stranger pulled up a chair right into my crotch. Knee in my crotch. Face here told me something that I only thought in my head. And I'm like, how the hell could you know that? These entities speaking through him and me speaking to them through him, say, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that. They allowed me to ask them questions. One of my first questions from UFO encounters that people have abductions. This is how aliens communicate. This how future humans, potentially. This is how we may all communicate in the future. I didn't have to experience it firsthand to know that. But after having experienced it firsthand, what else is there?
- [01:05]
B
Can't even recall what you had seen at the time. Dr. Mike Masters.
- [01:19]
A
Yes.
- [01:19]
B
How are you, sir?
- [01:20]
A
I'm doing well. How about you, Mark?
- [01:21]
B
I'm doing excellent. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [01:23]
A
Absolutely.
- [01:23]
B
Man, deep in the woods. I. I know you had to hike a long way to get up here.
- [01:26]
A
Well, I know. And I wore my little mountain man jacket. You know, camping. This is pretty much my camping gear.
- [01:32]
B
I love it.
- [01:33]
A
I thought about wearing one of those mosquito net things, like over your head, a little elastic band right there. I thought that might be too much.
- [01:39]
B
Now we sprayed. We got. Okay, we mitigated mosquitoes.
- [01:42]
A
Don't. It seems pretty good in here. As long as there's not flies. Oh, my goodness.
- [01:45]
B
Have you seen those? Where. That's an alien right there.
- [01:48]
A
Yeah, I know. It's crazy parasites that do the weirdest things to you. I'm lucky. We're lucky we don't have those. Yeah, but. And I heard you got to put like a piece of meat over the hole and then it crawls out into the air.
- [02:01]
B
Like you suffocate. You got to put tape over it and then like. Like starve it out of oxygen. Then they come out and then you got to pop.
- [02:07]
A
It's not much different than ticks. I don't know how we got on parasite so early here, but. Yeah. No, man.
- [02:13]
B
Not dissimilar to the. To the top. We might discuss.
- [02:15]
A
In some ways, that's a really good point. Yeah, I guess it was A beautiful segue after all. Right, all right.
- [02:22]
B
You are a, an expert in a couple of fields that I'm fascinated by. An anthropologist by expertise. You have a PhD in anthropology and you now are in the, I guess, non human intelligence world, the UFO world, the traveler world. I don't know exactly how you would define it.
- [02:39]
A
Visitor, traveler. I steer away from NHI because I think part of them are human and that innately discounts the human component there. So I try to keep it general, I try to keep it vague when I talk about it. Visitors, travelers. When I talk specifically about this theory, I use extra tempest real because it's kind of a tie in where we have extraterrestrial which was outside of Earth, replaced the terror with the tomp, which is time. So outside of time. But yeah, when just speaking about the phenomenon, I try to keep it pretty open ended. It's funny because originally it was extraterrestrial and now it's nhi. Who knows what will be next. But yeah, I'm with you. I think we should keep it more, more broad.
- [03:23]
B
Yeah. And I love the way that you have sort of, I guess, combined these two fields that you take a sort of a materialist scientific approach to the phenomena, but also take a, you know, very open minded approach to the science in a certain way that you kind of accept a lot of different data points and try to form this, I don't know, commingling that I find, I find really approachable and palatable for me.
- [03:47]
A
Oh, that's, that's good to hear. Yeah. I mean it, it's funny, it's, it's been a work in progress for me, still is. I call this, you know, an evolving notion, an EVOL project because I, I did initially approach this with a very reductionist, materialist perspective and have been forced to rethink that in multiple ways because of multiple things. And I see now that it's much more complex than just these physical craft and physical entities physically putting things in people's butts and like observing them and taking samples, that's all a part of it. We can't discount that material aspect. There's way more involved. And I owe a lot of that, I think, to Jeff Kripel at Rice University. He's brought me into, you know, a number of conferences that just blew my mind and made me widen my aperture and then just realizing and digging deeper into this, going farther down the rabbit hole, that there's just so much related to consciousness and energy and potentially you know, even near death experiences, psychedelics like Anything that challenges our notions of, of this reality. And UFOs are certainly one of those I think we need to pay attention to. And I kind of wonder how much overlap exists among all of those.
- [05:07]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that that's kind of where I'm coming from it where as of right now. And again, I'm sort of a casual in the space. I, by no means a self professed.
- [05:16]
A
It's a good way to be. You don't want to go too deep and into this rabbit hole. It's, it's dangerous down there. People have knives and swords cutting each other.
- [05:24]
B
It's a knife fight. But, but I'm fascinated by all of these things and how they kind of interplay with each other. And I think there are a couple things that have happened in the last maybe five, eight years that I think have brought this topic into the mainstream. The Overton Window has shifted and now it is sort of in this collective consciousness, if you will. You have things like David Fravor and Grush and other, you know, high ranking military personnel that are describing craft and non human biologics, presenting them in front of Congress in very significant and legitimate ways.
- [05:54]
A
Yeah.
- [05:55]
B
Which has not happened in the past. And I think as human beings, researchers, academics, there is sort of an impetus to kind of explain what is happening. What are these things that we're seeing that are moving in these unconventional and unpredictable ways. And then furthermore, we have, I mean, at this point, thousands, hundreds of thousands of reports across time and geography of people describing experiences that have happened to them. Some of them certainly are fraudulent, some of them could be explained with materialist terms. But I think certainly some of them are very legitimate, real experiences that have happened to these people. Whether it's abductions, sightings, interactions and conversations with entities that are perhaps, you know, interdimensional, intertempestral. And there's many different theories that we can discuss. But today I really want to unpack the theory that you've kind of put forward, which is this idea that perhaps these things that we know as aliens, grays, whatever you want to call them, could be future humans in some capacity. And the way that Danny had kind of put it in, Danny Jones, a great podcaster and a friend of mine, had put it in his YouTube episode that perhaps these craft could be quasi time machines in a way. And it's a fascinating hypothesis that I think does a lot to kind of move the ball forward and kind of puts a lot of things into context that makes sense for people. Even I think people maybe come from A more skeptical worldview. So, yeah, I would love to know, you know, what is the best place to start as far as laying out this theory for how human beings.
- [07:31]
A
Well, one caveat to start with is that I don't consider what I'm doing. I didn't put the idea forward per se. I tried in my second book. In the first chapter, I tried to identify everybody I could, whether they be authors, researchers, film producers, TV writers who also had this idea and tried to put it forward in some way. And, and what I'm seeing lately is sort of a culmination of all of these different efforts where a lot of people. So, so a good example is how natural selection was discovered at the same time by both Alfred Russel Wallace and Charles Darwin. Working independently. Alfred Russell Wallace was mostly studying Beatles and Charles Darwin's all over the place. But the Galapagos is where he really made the connection with finches and descent with modification that grew out of what he was seeing with the different variants of those finches. But they came to the same conclusion at the same time independently. And I think that's sort of what's been happening over the last couple decades as people are realizing there's a lot of problems with this extra, no, I can't even not say my own term, extraterrestrial idea. And, and that's, I don't discount it, you know, and that's another thing I'd like to point out is I don't think this extra Tempestua model explains all of it. I get pigeonholed a lot and kind of put in this box that I'm not actually in. And I say all the time, I think this does check some of those boxes, but I don't think it explains the whole thing. So as, as George Knapp told me early on, he's like, you know, this idea has been around for a while, but you sort of brought a lot of different fields together and a lot of information together to make a stronger case for it. And I think that's all I've been really trying to do. Like, it did come to me independently when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Sort of had this, this moment of realization, this epiphany. Looking back on it, we might even use the term download or, you know, something a little more cosmic or consciousness based. But it occurred to me independently at that time. And then as I went deeper into this, I realized, oh, wow, a lot of other people have thought of this too. So I think it's important to acknowledge that. But yeah, outside of those two little disclosures, I guess a good place to start is probably where I first approached this from in a biological sense, an evolutionary sense, because that was really the crux of this download. And for people who haven't read my books, I talk about it in my first two books because I think it's important, sort of backstory into how I got into this. But it was a situation where my biological father had seen a UFO prior to my birthday. I heard him talking about it to some friends at our house. I was kind of hanging out on the stairs just like, what the hell is he talking about? That's crazy. Didn't know UFOs existed. And he bought Whitley Strieber's book Communion, that happened to be facing out on the living room shelf. And I came in from our dining room into the living room and just kind of froze and there was this like white light. I guess I don't know how else to describe it, but just a moment of just. Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, it's happened to me a couple times since as an adult. Almost like a sort of precognitive event or just there was information that became available in that moment. When I looked at the COVID of the book that has your archetypal gray alien on the front of it, and I envisioned an early hominin or a chimpanzee like creature, a modern human, and then this archetypal gray alien. And with that came the realization or the thought, could they be us? Could these characteristics that we share among ourselves, what we now call synapomorphies, or shared derived characteristics, in an evolutionary biology sense, could we share those because we're all related, the ancestor, the chimpanzee like form is earlier, we're right in the middle, and then project that forward and we have these same traits, eyes, nose, mouth in the same place. Bigger head, smaller face. We can get into the details of that if you want to, but I, I sort of had this sense that they might just be us, but a future version of us, like Danny said, using that UFO. I don't think all of the UFOs but the, the disc shaped ones specifically seemingly have a form consistent with the function of traveling backward in time. So putting the morphology together with the physical aspects of these craft kind of paints a picture that we should take this seriously. There's still too much variation for this to explain everything, but I do think we should look at the physical aspects of the craft, the beings, and be open to this question of whether they could be Us.
- [12:24]
B
When your dad had the experience, did he see craft or being or both?
- [12:30]
A
Just the craft, the way I heard him say it. And then I asked him about it again in college because I wanted to make sure, you know, I was eight when I heard this, so I wanted to make sure I had the details right. But he was a veterinarian in Northeast Ohio, kind of Amish country, sort of spreads from where we are all the way into western Pennsylvania. But he was out on a call, happened to have somebody with him because a lot of times students and vet school would ride along with vets in various places. He went to Ohio State. He's actually at Ohio State with Jack Hanna, the well known vet for the Columbus Zoo. And he's on TV all the time with his animals and stuff. But so he had someone riding along with him. So there's another witness, which adds legitimacy to the account. And he said they crested this hill and could see this glowing orb of light, like a large ball of light. And he described it. One of the things I remembered most from when I was young and when I asked him again is that it wasn't emitting rays of light. You know, you look at a big street light and you can see all the little rays. This was just glowing. And he said it was, you know, off in the distance. And all of a sudden it shot toward them. It was like right in front of their truck for some period of time, I don't remember exactly how long. And all of this is very strange in Amish country. You know, you notice a big light like that because there aren't lights. So there was the initial recognition of this thing that stood out in the darkness of Amish country. But then the non prosaic thing it did was dart right to them, hover. No propulsion system or anything like that that's observable. No wings. And then went back to where it was and then shot straight up into the sky. So that was the gist of that interaction. No beans though. As far as I know. There's no missing time. It was just that, that brief interaction with this glowing light.
- [14:28]
B
Interesting. Now, when you had seen the COVID of the book and received this download, you had this sort of intellectual apparition where you sort of see these beings sort of, you know, connected to each other. Early hominid, Homo sapien human. And then, you know, this future being kind of in this linear way. Did you feel anything emotionally? Did you feel euphoria? Did you feel excited?
- [14:50]
A
Yeah, big time. So, you know, it's funny, not just this Project evolving. But my perception of all of it is highly evolving, too, or constantly evolving, I think is a better way of saying that, because I. I've had precognition my entire life. Like, I'll dream something and then I'll see it. Sometimes it'll be 2 years, 5 years, 10 years. I dreamt about my kids before I met them. I dreamt about my wife. I recognized her the second I saw her from these dreams about my future and the life we had to get. She was married at the time, so it was very confusing for me. But. But there was, like, this sense for a long time that that must have been a moment of conscious precognition, because I've had five of those as well. Like something I see that eventually I'm doing or is happening. But it happens constantly in my dreams. I get glimpses of the future through my dreams. So I initially thought of that as some sort of conscious, precognitive moment, like a very distant one, because I was 8 or 9, and I didn't start talking about this publicly until 2018. Didn't start writing my first book until 2012. So obviously a big chunk of time between those. But since then, in learning more about what people describe in download situations, having experienced things like that myself in different capacities, I don't know if it was just a precognitive moment. And part of why I say that is related to your question, where I do remember seeing a bright white light. I feel like there was missing time involved. I don't know how long I was standing there, but there was like a flood of information. And. And, yeah, it's kind of your classic download scenario. Like, it's almost like I was activated in some way to go on to do the things that I'm doing now that were a part of that moment. So it's. It's sort of a linkage through time, I guess. But. And I think it's interesting, too, I mentioned this talking to. To Julian recently, Julian Dory, that it's. It's interesting to me that that's also the time when the Catholic Church gives you agency to decide whether you want to join the church or not. So that whole religion is determined at age 8 is when you have enough volition as an individual to make this choice yourself.
- [17:15]
B
Do confirmation and first communion things.
- [17:18]
A
Exactly. So. And that's when it happened to me at that age and early on when I first started talking about this. 2018, 2019. I had so many people reach out, age 8, AJ, first abduction, first download, first time Something happened to them.
- [17:33]
B
And ironically, you were looking at a book called Communion.
- [17:35]
A
Yeah, yeah. Actually, I never made that connection. That's hilarious.
- [17:38]
B
Interesting.
- [17:39]
A
Yeah.
- [17:39]
B
So you have this experience. You feel this sort of excitement. Like, was the euphoria element there? I don't want to insert that if it's not that.
- [17:47]
A
The. The light that came, the information that came was sort of, you know, that feeling when you get, like, the. The wiggly ticklies, you know, like goosebumps, and you're kind of. It's like you raise up a little bit and. Yeah, that was definitely a part of it.
- [18:03]
B
It's just interesting. I've spoken to a few people, have had experiences like this, Kelly Chase, James Iandoli, that both of them describe being in this sort of, you know, liminal state. There's no time really receiving information. And they feel amazing.
- [18:15]
A
Yeah.
- [18:16]
B
Like, they feel like it's euphoric, for sure.
- [18:18]
A
Yeah.
- [18:18]
B
The euphoria is such an interesting element that goes along with it. Now, I've spoken to some people that have had anomalous experiences that are not as euphoric, but it is interesting, and.
- [18:26]
A
We definitely need to take those into account too. For sure. But. But when it's an. An energy, mostly one way, I would say. But I'm sure there's some sort of exchange in the more conventional sense of that term. Yeah, it goes. It feels like it goes through all parts of your body. Since I was. I don't even know when, but since I was young. One of the things that's funny about all of this is, like, I've had a lot of experiences throughout my life, but as I dig deeper into the more spiritual consciousness, energy side of this phenomenon, I realize there's words for all this. And I feel like such a noob learning this stuff. But. But I've always had the ability to, like, bring energy into my body, and it always starts with like. For this will sound crude, I don't know how else to say, but, like, clenching my B hole.
- [19:21]
B
A little Kegel action.
- [19:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if we have Kegel muscles, but there's some equivalent in males where. Where it starts with that. And then, like, I feel this rush of energy come through and just spread throughout my entire body. And I'm able to do this at any point. And I'd love to see it on, like, an EEG or an FMRI or something. But I. I just learned there's a word for that. It's called, like, Bonda banda, something like a Sanskrit word. Is this yeah, yeah, because. Because all of this stuff has been known, you know, with mystics, Eastern mystics.
- [19:54]
B
And ayurvedic medicine and meditation.
- [19:56]
A
Yeah. And it's cool because like, you know, there's clearly something there. We say in anthropology we have these cultural universals, as we call them, things that exist in every society throughout the world. And they teach us more than just looking at the differences among people because it shows us that there's something innately important about that. Something the essence of being human.
- [20:18]
B
Dancing, music. Yeah.
- [20:20]
A
Marriage, incest, taboos. There's a huge list of them. Some sort of political system, economic system. But when you start to find that these common characteristics exist and there's names for them, and there's similar views about death and reincarnation and what happens to the soul when the body dies and all of these things that so many different groups have talked about and written about and discussed for thousands of years, like that's really something to pay attention to. And I feel like a total noob because I'm, I'm realizing that a lot of experiences I've had involving this energy that, that I can bring into my body that starts with my B hole is like, this is something people have been doing for ages, you know, and there's a word for it, I wish I could remember the whole word is banda something. But like Brahma Maharta is another one I learned recently. It's this, this time period where you wake up and have sort of a deeper connection with the other side. What lies beyond the veil, where we come from, where we go, what people experience in near death experiences, psychedelic trips. Whitley Strieber has written five books in that space. And I remember the first time he talked about this at the opening of the Archives of the Impossible conference. He was talking about waking up every morning between 3 and 5am but he's actually woken up and he interacts with these beings, he interacts with this energy and he's using that to bring in the information from the other side, from across the veil, the Akashic records or whatever you want to call it. And that started happening to me too over the last couple years. So there's all of these things that I think that happen to a lot of different people because I talked about this at Esalen. Whitley was there too, and you know, mentioned to him that it was so helpful for me to hear him talk about this because I didn't know there was a word for it. I was pissed about it all the time because I'm waking up and I gotta Go to work. And my daughter was being a brat his teenage years, you know, so I'm fighting with her. I'm not getting sleep. But then I heard him talk about it with Kelly Chase, actually, on her podcast, ufo, Rabbit Hole. And it just opened everything up for me. I was like, wait, this is a thing. There's a word for it. And you can use it. You can use this thing. And. And talking about it at Esalem, there's another guy there who's like, wait, that happens to me. So we had a little conversation afterwards, and he's like, same thing. He's like, I started using it. I got a colleague at Montana Tech who I had this conversation with. He started using it instead of seeing as, like, you know, I'm awake now, don't have enough time to go back to sleep. I gotta get up. And it's been hugely transformational for him, too. So it's like, you know, that's why I think these conversations are important, because we can talk about things that normally we don't in Western society that actually may have so much impact in individual people's lives and as a society, if we can just have the space to talk about it. So I really appreciate these types of conversations. And, yeah, the ones like at the Esalen Institute and Big Sur and what Jeff's doing with the archives at Rice University. So we're going to discuss the sort.
- [23:35]
B
Of morphology of the Homo sapiens and how things progress. But on this specific topic, as it's sort of come up organically, you having these experiences, not only you having these experiences from a young age, but then you go into this field of proper academia, you can earn a PhD. I'm curious, though. You become the chair of the department at Montana Tech, was it difficult for you to square these sort of strange phenomena that you're having that are sort of difficult to measure, difficult to test, difficult to replicate with this very staunch sort of scientific field that you're entrenched in?
- [24:12]
A
No, because most of the weird shit didn't start happening until two years ago. So really it was just that experience when I was eight that was weird to me. But I rationalized it with just being an aspect of the precognition that I have all the time. So I didn't really have much challenging my materialist view until 2022. So it was easy to go through as far as what I was doing and why I was there. Like, that was what activated me or set me on this path. And that's a big part of why I saw it as a precognitive thing. So I go on to do the thing that then send information back to my 8 year old self in that moment. Create this sort of closed time like loop of cause and effect. That's sort of how I viewed it. That's not too woo, you know, that's not too strange. So I just went through the process, the sieve that is graduate school and the biological sciences that's very data driven, hypothesis testing driven. So no, there wasn't really any cognitive dissonance in that sense. However, in 2022 initially I saw five UFOs and that I don't feel like it was necessarily related to the waterfall of absolute insane shit that started happening after that. But it was clearly a point in time that demarcated the previous staunchly held physicalist mentality with what would come after is this slow descent into a broader worldview that includes much more energetic spiritual consciousness based things.
- [26:04]
B
So do you see these UFOs simultaneously or in success?
- [26:07]
A
Yeah, all five at the same time.
- [26:09]
B
And where were you?
- [26:09]
A
In my backyard.
- [26:11]
B
Just. Did you have a feeling to go outside?
- [26:13]
A
Yeah, it was that classic, hey, go outside.
- [26:16]
B
So you're in your home and just kind of take them through the whole progress.
- [26:19]
A
Yeah, so I was having a nice glass of bourbon, a nightcap if you will. It's about 12:30 at night, kids are in bed, wife's in bed. And yeah, I was standing in my kitchen and that, you know, little voice or whatever, something compelled me to go. And we live in this steep canyon kind of at the end of the canyon where the canyon walls are like this. But the, the part behind my house is sloped enough that you can walk up and I've got a little, I call it a sundowner spot. There's one day, on a whim, we were moving some logs around and created this like platform like probably 100, 150ft up the, the canyon wall that looks out over the east ridge and view like this beautiful little mountain range. So I walked up that trail that goes up toward the sundowner spot, turned around and there's five lights in the sky, perfectly spaced. I can't give a distance, I can't say how far they were, but they were low enough that they definitely weren't stars. They were bright enough and they were close enough that I instantly realized they weren't stars, but they weren't moving.
- [27:26]
B
What color were they?
- [27:27]
A
Just kind of a whitish yellowish color. So. And you know, naturally I'm like, oh, that's weird. So I sit There and watch them for a second. After maybe 45 seconds to a minute, one by one, from right to left, they just. Just took off, like, at incredible speed, kind of leaving that, like, trail behind them, you know, shooting off toward the southeast. Just one after another, all five of them. And then as the last one went, I was like, I think I just saw Starlink. That's crazy. Starlink's way crazier than I ever thought it was. So I go inside, shake my wife awake, like, I saw Starlink. It's fucking nuts. Like, you wouldn't believe how crazy this is. It wasn't Starlink. It took me about six months to realize. I remember. I remember the exact moment my. My daughter was getting a couple teeth pulled out at the pediatric dentist that we go to, good friends of ours. And for some reason I was sitting there, I was like, wait a minute. That was not Starlink. There's no way. So I start frantically googling pictures of Starlink, and it looks nothing like that. And I've seen Starlink satellite releases many, many times. You know, it's this string of lights. They're just kind of going like this. And. And it's funny, I don't know if it was an aspect of my brain that wouldn't let me say, wait, this is not normal. Let's put it in a normal box and just put it away. But I was still, like. I was excited about it. I was, like, incredibly just moved by what I was seeing, enough that I shook my wife awake. But I said the wrong thing. I didn't say I just saw UFOs for my first time. I was like, I saw Starlink and it's crazy. Or if it was one of those cases where you're sort of told to think something, to sort of obscure what's actually happening. I don't know. But I still find it weird that that was my first UFO sighting and it took about six months to realize that it was actually UFOs.
- [29:29]
B
Do you think you and your dad were similar ages when you had seen UFOs?
- [29:33]
A
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, this was early 2022, maybe. That's a good question.
- [29:44]
B
Strange. I'd be curious.
- [29:45]
A
I could probably reverse engineer the timeline for those things. Yeah. Because I know it was right before I was born. And they. Yeah, maybe.
- [29:53]
B
That's fascinating.
- [29:54]
A
Yeah.
- [29:55]
B
So you see this, and then shortly thereafter, you start kind of having more kind of precognition downloads, so to speak. Could you take through that process as well?
- [30:04]
A
Yeah, yeah. No things incrementally started to get really strange and then started to get even stranger faster. But not long after that, I was getting ready to go to the original archives of the Impossible conference opening of the archives, where they had people like Edwin May, who ran the Stargate program, Jacques Vallee, Diana Pasulka, Whitley Strieber. A lot of notable people in this space. Not just UFOs, but, you know, psy, remote viewing, telepathy, things like that. About a week before, I had a very intense conscious precognition moment where I, my wife had just take the kids to school under the bus stop. We live in a pretty rural place, so they have to ride the bus for 40 minutes. I feel kind of bad about that, but they don't mind, and they just put their headphones on and chill out. But she was taking the bus stop, missed the bus stop, because they got there just a little late. So she follows it, gets them to the next bus stop, goes to turn around, and the snow had drifted over this big ditch and she puts the car straight into it. It was deep into this thing. But what was interesting about it is I picked up my phone and thought, oh, it's weird. My wife hasn't called me to pull her out of the ditch yet. And she's never. This is the only time then or since that she's ever been stuck in the snow. But as I'm thinking that, the phone rings and it's my wife, hey, I'm stuck in the ditch. Can you bring the truck up? And the tow straps? And it took us a solid 45 minutes to get her out, like digging and pulling and. But I, I precognized that consciously. It wasn't a dream. I picked up my phone and I was like, oh, it's weird. And I had to go to work too. But when she did call, it was like I was already prepared for. I wasn't angry or upset, you know, even though I was going to be late for work, I just said, huh? And I still couldn't even really process that. I'd already thought that before I knew that that had even happened. But this was about a week before going to that conference. And I think it's really funny because at that conference I was on a panel with Eric Wargo, who wrote three books about precognition, Precognitive Dreams and precognition, all of these various capacities. So I don't know, I still find it hilarious that about a week before I was on a panel with him at this conference that I had one of the most Intense conscious precognition. Moments of my life.
- [32:43]
B
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- [34:42]
A
But also around that time I was getting all of our ski equipment ready because we were going to go out hit the slopes that weekend, I believe. So I was just going through all of our equipment, you know, making sure the bindings are set up for the boots and everything that we need is in there. Because when you have kids and you go skiing, it's an absolute nightmare. And nobody else knows enough about it to make sure everybody thing is there, you know. So I check, check, check, check, check. So I'm doing that and I step outside of the garage and look up at this light in my neighbor's yard. And all of a sudden I am hearing words like it's talking to me, or something is talking to me through this light. And it was. You know, I've never just really heard words. Like there's a couple times that I have, but they're always kind of quiet and, you know, like guiding sorts of things that you can separate from your internal monologue. I have a very, very active internal dialogue. But there's been times where I will hear a voice. I know we're not supposed to say that because, you know, everybody's schizophrenic that hears voices. And it's not like it's all the time or I'm dancing around in the street saying things. It's not like that. But it's different enough from my internal monologue that I know it's not me. And that's what I heard. And then at that moment, it was like way more intense than any of the little subtle voices I heard. And so I responded.
- [36:16]
B
What did you hear? What were the first words?
- [36:18]
A
I can't remember, to be honest. I wish I could, but it was something that got my attention. And I'm staring at this slate and, you know, one thing, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but one thing that I think is really important, because a lot of things that have happened since have involved light, communication, feelings, energy. And what's really interesting is that growing up as a kid in a fundamentalist Christian household, we were told not to look at the light. Divert thine eyes. And for some reason around that time I started. It might have been that might have been the first time I looked right at the light, like stared straight into it. And this something happened, some connection was made because there was a communication that took place. I responded, next thing I know, I'm having a conversation with some sort of entity through this light.
- [37:16]
B
And what time of day was this?
- [37:17]
A
It was probably around 10:30 or 11 at night.
- [37:21]
B
Okay.
- [37:22]
A
And it's. Yeah, it's just this big ass security light in my neighbor's yard. It's still there.
- [37:28]
B
So you identified what the light was?
- [37:30]
A
Yeah, it's just a big pole with the light on it. It's. It's always there, you know, and a lot of other things have happened involving this. I had some filmmaker friend and Darren King was at my house one time. And like, you know, I've talked about this enough and it's been instrumental enough in the early stages of sort of reshaping my perception. My buddy's like, oh, is that. Is that your God light over there? I was like, if we're gonna call it that, sure. But I wasn't talking to God. I don't know what it was. And I didn't believe that it was real. I went back inside, I was like, I think I just talked to a light. But nope, that's just all in my head. So, you know, my imagination.
- [38:11]
B
And you stayed in your physical body the whole time?
- [38:13]
A
Okay, Yep, yep. Right there in the body.
- [38:16]
B
And what was this conversation?
- [38:18]
A
It was mostly centered around anxieties I was having related to the travel I was doing. Like I said, that opening of the Archives of the Impossible conference was coming up in one or two weeks. I don't remember exactly when. And I was really concerned about the safety of my family and just, you know, having to leave them because I was doing a lot of conferences, a lot of TV shoots, and I just had this sort of anxiety about the travel and leaving them and, you know, wanting to be there for my kids and just not knowing how to circle this square. So that's the main thing that stood out to me is will my family be okay? Will my kids be okay with my house and my, you know, home be all right? It was very anxiety driven. It's almost like it was an intervention of sorts, you know, like, hey, chill, it's. It's gonna be fine. You know, just go do the stuff, whatever. It's cool. And so, like I said, I wrote that off just as a figment of my imagination. Overactive, you know, internal monologue. Even though it was clear, it wasn't like I was legit having a conversation back and forth telepathically with the light as the medium of exchange. And the. The reason I know it was not a figment of my imagination is later that year, on October 14, 2022, I was. I call it a mini abduction. And I've talked about this in some other places. You're aware because you said you Listened to a couple of these podcasts, too. But I was taken out to this balcony after I'd given a talk at the International UFO Congress in Mesa, Arizona, Phoenix. And two individuals took me. One actually, speaking of that. That root chakra or the. The banda thing, this complete stranger, someone I did not know at all. I know him now. I know him quite well now. Complete stranger pulled up a chair, like, right into my crotch, knee in my crotch, face, right here, told me something that I'd only thought in my head. There's no way he could have known, because I don't know this person. And even if I did, how could he know something?
- [40:28]
B
I'm thinking, like, he just walks up.
- [40:29]
A
To you and says, yeah, I was sitting in this chair. He comes up, pulls this chair, and tells me something that was only a thought in my head. And I'm like, how the hell could you know that? They, through him, say, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that. And telepathically, I asked future humans, and they didn't answer. They just kind of moved on and said, so you know how we know that? Okay, yeah, kind of nodded. And then from that point on, the conversation initially vocally exchanged, you know, vocalizations, mouth words, probably use a better word for that. We talked, not him, not with him, but these entities speaking through him, and me speaking to them through him, along with this woman who's also involved in this, standing to my left, who initially took me there so this Eric person could come and do what they needed to do with these two individuals in physical form on this planet here with us, so they could do those things. But the reason I know that initial light conversation was real is because they allowed me to ask them questions. One of my first questions, still having those same anxieties from back in March before this conference, was, will my family be okay throughout all of this, not even just the traveling, but other things that I feel are related to all of the insanity of this phenomenon and consciousness and a conscious shift and this thing that everyone feels is coming as experiencers, and even non experiencers, I think, are starting to feel this as well. But I specifically asked, will my family be okay? And they said, through him. We already talked about that before you went to the conference at Rice University. And it made this connection to me that was like, oh, that was real. That wasn't just a figment of my imagination. And it was these same entities that I'm talking to now that I was talking to then. So it was like a lot of other Things happened in that moment. But as far as what we were talking about initially with, you know, how did I deal with going through the academic program and the process where you're beat into this materialist mentality when these weird things are happening? All of these things happened much more recently in the last two years, two and a half years, so I didn't have to deal with that. But since these moments of interaction that have forced me to reconceptualize ego, reconceptualizes physical reality, reconceptualized telepathy, which now people are starting to talk about a lot, because the most popular podcast in the world right now is the Telepathy Tapes, which I think is awesome, you know, and they did it so well. I'm only about halfway through it, so my friend Jesse Michaels just made an episode about it, so I might cheat a little bit and watch that first. But it's amazing. You saw it.
- [43:35]
B
Yeah. Not Jesse's, but I listened to the whole series.
- [43:38]
A
Yeah.
- [43:38]
B
Kai Dickens is.
- [43:39]
A
I know. And my wife shifted, too. I was like, we need to listen to this. I know you would like this. Because she's always been like the spiritual enlightened person, and I was just some dumb little reductionist. It was like, yeah, okay. And it wasn't that I dismissed it. I just didn't understand it. And we tend to fear or ignore what we don't understand, and that's how it was. I see this beautiful human being, my wife, who has such an interesting worldview, but I just couldn't understand what it was. I couldn't connect to it. And we have this joke that I'm evolving into her. Not just because of this, for a lot of reasons, I'm just kind of turning into her, which is great because I was kind of a shithead before. So it's like, after this experience, it really forced me into a new framework for conceptualizing reality that move from being conventional to much more obscure. And I'm still trying to figure all of this out. And I don't have an answer as to who or what was communicating with me through that light and through Eric and Heidi on that balcony. I've tried to read things, listen to things, just to get a sense of, you know, what is this that exists beyond our normal everyday lives. Like, telepathy is real. I didn't need to experience that to know that. Because I take the work of people like Dean Radin at IONS and other people who do this and test it scientifically and adhere to the scientific method in doing So I know that's real. I know that's real from UFO encounters that people have, abductions. This is how aliens communicate. This is how future humans, potentially, this is how we make. They all communicate in the future. So I didn't have to experience it firsthand to know that, but after having experienced it firsthand, there's no question in my mind. And then it's like, it's this rabbit hole, this cliche where it's like, what else is there? And I think a lot of people are experiencing this right now with the UFO in general. Like, oh, wait, UFOs are real. What else is out there? What else don't we know about? What else has been kept from us? Or we just weren't quite at a place with our collective consciousness to be able to understand about this universe that we live in, or this reality being much broader than we, we thought. I'm sorry, that was probably a way.
- [46:15]
B
Longer answer than you wanted, but no, that's, that's remarkable.
- [46:18]
A
It ties in a couple different things we were talking about earlier.
- [46:21]
B
So, of course, now if I were to be observing you three speaking on the balcony or, you know, quote unquote.
- [46:26]
A
A lot of people were. A lot of people were watching us.
- [46:29]
B
And those people just said, oh, you, you three were staring at each other.
- [46:34]
A
Yeah, well, initially, like I said, we were talking with their voices. There was nobody in there then at that time.
- [46:42]
B
But hypothetically, if I were to be there, it would just be you guys staring at each other, looking at the ground like, what was the.
- [46:48]
A
Well, so I. Eric, who pulled up the chair, face right here, eyes like this, knee in the crotch. And somebody pointed out to me later that maybe that was an aspect of. Because they specifically said through him, because that was my initial thing is like, who the is this guy, you know, and why is he up in my. I. I'm very much on the fight side of fight or flight. Yeah.
- [47:15]
B
You don't strike me as sort of a passive.
- [47:16]
A
No, no. And if somebody does that to you, you kind of was good. Yeah. So this complete stranger who we'd been waiting on for 20 minutes, like Heidi took me up there. I, I know now that Heidi wasn't Heidi. She had already been co opted and took me up to this room. It's this VIP room in this hotel where we had a little like meet and greet party before. And then everybody went down to a Halloween party that was happening in the main area where all the talks are given and the panels and stuff. Stuff. So she took me up there initially and Then kept saying, my friend Eric's coming. He really wants to talk to you. No idea who Eric is. Eventually, Eric does come. Complete stranger, knee in the crotch face right here. But that was the initial weird thing. Even prior to them saying, the thought that I had, which was specifically, we know you've been thinking about quitting lately, because I was. But I just thought that about a week before this conference. I never told anybody. I never said that out loud. Just a thought in my head. Even before that weirdness, they said through him, we know this makes you uncomfortable. Or we know something about what they were doing. Like, we know this makes you angry or something, but we need to be this close for this to work. And I didn't know what the hell that meant. And it didn't make sense, but it didn't matter because that anger and me about to throw punch, this dude feeling that I had was just, like, washed away. I felt like from top to bottom, just, like, washed away. And I'm like, all right, whatever, strangers, guys, knee in my dick. So what eventually happened, though, to answer your question about what people would see, is that, yeah, we were communicating vocally. There's a question and answer session during the. Toward the end of that, people did start to come back to that room because it was the common meeting place where the after party would be. And, you know, Travis Walton was there with his guitar and can pass it around and play music. But as people were coming in, like, we could see them, I wasn't really able to turn my head. I couldn't just go like this. Like, I was kind of locked in to this Eric person. I like, eyes wide open, just. Just straight ahead, but, like, right here. And. But at some point, three women did come out because they were concerned. They were like, what the hell's going on with masters out there on the balcony? Like, I have friends in this community. I know a lot of people in this community, and they could see us. And it must have looked very strange because I think at that point, we weren't talking like it. That was after the conversation moved from being vocalized to telepathic. And what's really interesting, another thing speaking of chakras, is that I felt, and I've described this before, even before realizing what some of these terms might be, but I remember feeling like I was elevated just above my body. And there's a word for that, the crown chakra. And that makes a lot of sense because that is like this gateway between the spiritual and physical world. You've got the violet, the indigo ray. Areas. And I felt like we were Me at least. I can't speak for them, but I felt like I was sitting right on top of my head. And that whole conversation was instant telepathic information exchanged without moving our mouths. And that probably did look weird as shit to the people inside. It probably looks tense.
- [50:49]
B
I mean, two guys just facing off.
- [50:51]
A
Like, yeah, but not moving and not talking to each other. It must look very strange. And then Heidi has her hand on my shoulder right here, just standing next to me. I would have been like, what the fuck's going on out there? You know? And three women did come out. I can't tell you who they were because I wasn't able to turn my head. But they came out in the balcony to check on me. I found out later. And Eric or them through Eric said, can you close the door behind you? All three turned, walked inside and closed the door. Nobody came back out the whole time. But by the time all of this was over, there were probably about 15 people inside. But it got really weird, at least from my point of view, because it's not something I knew was possible. Because they wanted to put. And this is why they said initially we need to be this close for this to work and this to loop back again. This is probably more information than was needed. But to loop back to why I think they said that based on these chakras is in the root chakra, that place where the banda thing happens, where I sort of stop the energy, pull it down from above. I think that was maybe the knee or that's what somebody pointed out to me later is why that needed to be there to make this sort of connection, this full connection between theirs and my chakras or energy centers. And honestly, still to this day, I catch myself saying this stuff. And I'm like, what the fuck happened to me? What are these words coming out of my mouth? Because it sounds insane to my wife. It wouldn't and hasn't for a long time because she's always thought this way. But this is all pretty recent for me. But as people say stuff like that and I think about them like, wait, yeah, that does make sense. It's like this. This plugging that energy there and. And this will make sense in a second. Because why they were actually there in addition to the mini intervention, you know, please don't stop doing this yet. We know you've been thinking about quitting. Please don't do that. Is that they said we need to put three things in your brain for some future times. Are you okay? With that, and off camera, we were talking about free will. And there was a very strong sense that I had volition and I had free will in that moment and could say, no, that's just too weird. I draw the line there. But they explained exactly what would happen. They said my eyes would go black. Even though they're still wide open, they go black from top to bottom. And there would be. I would see and feel information coming in my brain, but I wouldn't have access to it. I wouldn't remember it, and I wouldn't be able to remember it. Are you okay with that? And I said yes. I agreed. And it kind of makes sense with this whole chakra thing, because they just dumped incredibly fast, rate all of this information. Like, my eyes were open, but everything was black. But in that moment, I could see these bright colors, like streaming colors, mostly blue and purple and a little bit of red just streaming into my brain. And I could see it at the time. And Heidi could see it, too. She's not in my brain. She's standing next to me. But she's watching all of that same information. Which, again, makes me think there's some sort of crown chakra connection among the three of us with these entities in this space. And we're just the physical forms that are facilitating this information transmission collectively, like those two together. Because her role was somehow important, too. Like, Eric mostly did the talking and, you know, the interaction. He's the one that they're using to shoot this information into my brain. But she could see it, too. And every now and then she'd say, did you get that? Did you see that? And I could see it. Like, I could see what, what, what. It was like actual things in physical reality that are apparently going to happen according to them. And I could see it. And she would say, did you get that? Did you see that? And I'd go, huh, huh, huh? And I don't know how long this went on. There was missing time, lost time, whatever you want to call it. But I've. I do remember registering that. And then it got locked away and poof, gone. Like, I have no ability to access it.
- [55:08]
B
And you can't even recall what you had seen at the time.
- [55:11]
A
I have one little piece that I remember consciously at one of the times she said, or they said through her, did you get that? Did you see that? Like, this one little blip, Just tiny little piece. It's just a building. It's a brown building. That's all I have. And it was apparently three things for three different times or they said three things. I don't remember how exactly it's supposed to be partitioned out, but yeah, I don't know how long this went on. It was intense, very, very intense. But when it was over and they released me from this sort of mesmerized state, it just reversed. Like light returned from bottom to top and I was able to stand up very like disoriented. My head was very heavy, like I could barely even lift my head. But I walked through that room and now the room's full of people. So yeah, there must have been a good number of people that watched us probably. And I've talked to one of them since and they were all like, you know, we were worried about you. We didn't know what was happening. And it probably did look very strange.
- [56:23]
B
Do you have a sense that the download was cataclysmic or that it was in some way negative or was it positive? Like was there any emotional state connected to the data?
- [56:32]
A
Well, that's where it gets tricky because, because what happened is that after, after they released me, I walked through this room. A woman, probably one of the ones that came out in the first place, put her hand on my arm and said, are you okay? And I just kind of go, uh huh. Like I couldn't even lift my head to see who it was. And I've asked a couple people, they're like, no, that wasn't me. So I still don't know who it was, but I almost positive it was one of the three women that came out and then was forced to go back inside. But a funny thing that I didn't realize because I was in a very fucked up state like after this was over as far as like my connection with physical reality. So I guess I walked out of this room and the two organizers, Alejandro Rojas and Karen were, were apparently coming down the hallway to go into that room dressed in their, you know, tuxedos and nice dress. And, and I guess I saw them. I didn't, I didn't remember this until about eight months later when I had dinner with them in Phoenix after a talk that I gave. And I was telling them this story and they were like, oh, that makes so much sense. We saw you when you were leaving the room. Because my room was about four or five doors down on the same floor, the fourth floor of this, this building. And I guess I came out still in this dazed, mesmerized state. And they just looked at me like, are you okay? They thought I was drunk or something. I had one Beer the entire night. No drugs, no alcohol other than that one beer. And I guess they looked at me and said, are you okay? And I. According to them, they. I said, I think someone was just in my brain, which was very true. Went down, four doors down, went into my room, laid back with my clothes still on, shoes on the floor, passed out for, like, 12 or 13 hours. Woke up and, to your question, just started crying uncontrollably. And this is where the debate comes in, because I don't know why I was crying and couldn't stop crying. Personally, I think it was some sort of morphological thing. I think something happened in my brain to my brain, where it was just completely decimated. You know, like this information came in and just morphed something and caused this physiological response that came out as crying. Or I was telling this story. This came out. I guess I can talk about it, but I was on this road trip with George Knapping and the executive producer of this show called Investigation Alien that came out on Netflix last month, two months ago, I think it was November. And I'm. You know, they're talking about Jesse's Daco. And like, oh, yeah, that was interesting. You know, I saw you in that. It was interesting, your part. And I thought they were talking about the one that had just come out where I tell the story for the first time, which was very hard for me because it's still hard to talk about this sometimes. But it turns out they were talking about the one that he did with Grush that I had a little cameo in. And so I was like, yeah, you know, that was a crazy event on the balcony. And I'm still trying to process that. And they're both like, wait, what? Because they were talking about my little part in the Grush one. And so I'm relaying this story because we're traveling between, like, Capitol Reef and some other petroglyph site in Utah. And so we had a good amount of time. It was dark, you know, So I told him the whole story, start to finish. And the version I just told you is the gist of it, but there's some details in there, too, that I left out for time. But I told the whole thing because we didn't have anything else to do. And George asked that question. He was like, do you think your uncontrolled crying was a response to what you saw? And again, it probably didn't need to take that long for me to answer that very simple question. But I feel like there was some parts in between that were Important backstory. And I said, damn, I don't know. I never thought about that. That's a really good question. So did my conscious memory, in that brief moment where I was allowed to see what was going in, see something that made me very, very sad, or was it a physiological response to being brain in this way and having that information coming fast, like there was a sense of urgency, you know, Eric will tell you, too. Eric Mitchell's his name, and he's starting to talk about this stuff publicly, too. He'll tell you that the dial was cranked up like shit was getting forced into my brain very, very, very fast. And he's like, you took it. It was amazing. I don't know how you did that. I didn't really do anything. I just sat there and, you know, I had shot into my brain. But it could be either one. I don't know. I could see it being a physiological response. I could see it being an emotional response to what my conscious mind saw in that short moment or some combination of the two. But I had lunch with Leslie Kane not too long, actually, last December, after Jay and James and Doli's conference. The Inquiry into Anomalous Events, I think is what it's called. But I was having lunch with Leslie and we asked. We were talking about the same thing. I told her what George had said because we just filmed this daco about a month before, and I pitched that hypothesis to her, and she's like, I don't know. I don't know about that. So when George said it, I was like, yeah, maybe that makes sense. And then Leslie and I talked about it more, and she had some good arguments for maybe why it wasn't. It was more of a physiological response, overly long response to a simple question. I don't know. I could see it going either way.
- [62:35]
B
I wouldn't call it a simple question. I think this is a very borderline traumatic thing that had happened.
- [62:40]
A
Regardless, at the time. It was extremely traumatic. Yeah.
- [62:43]
B
And I'm curious, why did you accept the transmission? And knowing what you know now, would you have accepted it again?
- [62:49]
A
Absolutely. I did that willingly and would do it again willingly because they did a fantastic job. Initially, it was very shocking and in fact, like, I'd known Heidi for three years. Not well, you know, but I. I did a talk at this conference three years previous. We, you know, I met her. I liked her. She plays music, I play music. So kind of bonded over that. Met her daughter and her husband. So my wife, when I told her about all this, she's like, it's kind of up that Heidi didn't warn you about this, that she wasn't like, hey, this is about to happen to. This Eric guy's gonna come and decimate your cerebrum. But I realized later, a year later, when I was finally able to reach out to Heidi and be like, hey, you remember that night on the balcony? She doesn't remember any of it. She doesn't even remember taking me up there. That's why I say Heidi wasn't Heidi when she was like, you can't go because my friend Eric wants to talk to you. Who's Eric? Doesn't matter. He's a friend of mine. You'll like him. So what? She kept saying over and over, but it wasn't her, you know.
- [64:08]
B
But you couldn't tell that.
- [64:09]
A
No, I had no idea. I just assumed I was hanging out with Heidi and she was being mean, wouldn't let me leave.
- [64:15]
B
And does Eric remember?
- [64:16]
A
Yes. So that's what's interesting about this is, is there's different levels of this. There's a term for it called deep trance mediumship. And when you're in a deep trance. So for instance, like Nora Roberts, who channeled the Seth material, or Carla Ruckert, who channeled RA and the RA contact, the law of one, Deep trance mediumship, they're not there. Their voice is speaking words of these entities, Seth and the previous and. And Ra and the latter. But they're not consciously aware of what's happening. That was Heidi. She was completely gone. Eric, however he came in, knew he was supposed to come this room because Heidi, them through Heidi brought him up. They had never hung out face to face. I found that out later, too. They knew each other. They kind of talked from time to time online, through email, but they had never hung out. But she. They brought him there for this thing. And I'm getting to your question. I'm sorry.
- [65:17]
B
No, not at all.
- [65:18]
A
There's so many things that pop into my head. Details I think are counting. So Eric, the stranger to me comes up, and it was very shocking initially, when somebody knows your thoughts, a complete stranger knows your intimate thoughts that you never articulated out loud. That was the initial, like, oh, shit, what the fuck's going on? And from that point on, it was a slow sort of opening up of my psyche. And at some point, I was allowed to remember. I was allowed to see past the veil. And I think it was an important part of them wanting to convince me that I should keep doing this, because I agreed to do this even prior to entering this body. And I know that sounds insane, and a lot of people listening to this will probably be like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. But speaking of Carla Ruckert and the raw material, the law, the contact, the. The law of one.
- [66:29]
B
Yeah, I've looked into this recently. It's a fascinating case.
- [66:31]
A
So amazing. It's been so therapeutic for me and so helpful for me because so much of what's said through Carla Ruckert from ra, who's a social mind complex. It's not like one person, you know, Seth in the Seth material is a person. Ish, you know, an energy being of sorts. Raw is a social mind complex. It's a lot of different experiences of people who lived in this physical space, along with energy entities in the place where I've come to believe we all come from and we all go and we die.
- [67:04]
B
Could you explain the law of one experience and those tapes that exist relating to ra?
- [67:08]
A
Yeah. So I think it was back in the late 70s, early 80s, Carla Ruckert and another fella, I can never remember his name, realized they were able to make contact with. Actually, the Seth material was the first one. So you have the situation where I was just listening to this recently, where Nora Roberts is doing a Ouija board and they're asking questions. And it got to the point where they're like, wait, there's something else happening here. These are too specific. This is too right. And it got to the point where she is answering the questions the second they ask them, but then realizing it's not her, there's something speaking through her. And that was one of the first instances, I think this was in the 60s, and it really. It was transformational for people in society as a whole. Because now we realize, wait, there's a way to contact the. And it wasn't necessarily new to that time. You had people like, you know, the Stanford Research Institute and the Society for Psychical research in the 80s, which Alfred Russel Wallace was a part of. So Frederick Meyer was part of this group in the 80s. They were interested in telepathy. I think he might be the person that coined the term telepathy. No, that's not right, actually. Maybe it was. In any case, I recommend Jeff Kripel's book, authors of the Impossible. He talks about the Society and Frederick Meyer's contribution. There's also a chapter about Jacques Vallee in there. Great book. But it highlights sort of the fact that these things have been happening and people have been studying them. However, the Seth material and the realization that you could communicate with the other side really started to enter the cultural zeitgeist around the 60s with the channeling of Seth. And then not long after that was Carla Ruckert and the raw material. But so the process that she lays down. And I highly recommend everybody read these series of books because it was really instrumental for me because I was so pissed off for a while and just caught in this tornado of cognitive dissonance and just a lack of understanding of physical reality. But this book has added some context. Doesn't answer any questions, but it adds a lot of important context related to what our relationship is in these physical bodies, in this physical reality with a much more fundamental root source, consciousness, existence, which we likely all come from and is where we go in various levels of that once we leave this physical vessel. This is sort of an illusion that we're living in. And I was really pissed off about this question for about three months, not long after this interaction on the balcony, because I saw that world. I was brought into that. When I was lifted out of my body to have this conversation and to interact with these entities in their world almost as an out of body experience. I would go as far as to say it was not a body experience. I was shown and existed in that space despite having this body. And you ask anybody that's had an out of body experience, astral travel, near death experience, everything's really different, you know, so. So to answer your question, the reason I agreed to it and would agree to it, is I was allowed to remember. I was allowed to look past the river of forgetting that we all walk across when we're born into these bodies. Because we have to. I've found it's very hard to have one foot in both realities. We need to cleanse ourselves of the knowledge of what exists outside of this illusion. And we do that when we're born. But according to the raw material, the law of one, one of the main things we're supposed to do is exactly this. What you and I are doing right now is seek answers, seek information, just seek knowledge about this existence and about that existence. And in that moment, starting with the shock of how do you know my thoughts? Why is your knee in my dick? From that point on, it was this slow opening up a movement into the space above the crown chakra, if you will, where I saw and remembered everything for that period of time. And I liken it to a. A heavy acid dose, or you know what you call it, hero dose. Of mushrooms, where, like, you're blasted into this other reality, or the veil comes down for you for a temporary period of time, but when you come back in your body, you're like, wow, that was the most transformational thing. Can't believe I had all of these thoughts. I saw everything. I talked to God. You can't bring that back with you, you know? So. So in that moment, though, I was allowed to remember, and I was like, oh, shit, I know them. I know them. Well, of course you can do this. Why was I being a little bitch in the first place? You know, in that moment, that's how I felt. And I was like, yes, of course I agree to this. There was still the free will, and I highly recommend the raw material, because off camera, you're talking about this question of free will. That's a huge part of that book, the Law of One. Like, they talk about free will a lot. That's like the first rule, you know, like the. The Prime Directive in Star Trek. Like, don't interfere with a society. Civilization's development. That's the first rule. And interacting across the veil and even with UFOs, is do not impinge on free will. Everyone has the ability to choose. They have agency. And I was given that, too. They said, do you agree to this? Can we black your eyes out and brain you for a little while? And I was like, yes, because I remembered. I remembered that I had agreed to this, and I was just being a turd because of all of the stuff that was difficult for me in this physical reality and still is, you know, like, my flight into LaGuardia last night was garbage. We barely made it, you know, But.
- [73:44]
B
But, like, yeah, that Runway LaGuardia is a little short. Yeah, you kind of. You hit the ground pretty good three times.
- [73:48]
A
It took us three times to land. Really? We were right. You know, you go over those buildings and Home Depot Endeavor, and then the. The water, and then straight up again twice.
- [73:57]
B
Wow.
- [73:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And everybody's looking at each other like, are we good? We're good. Get on the ground.
- [74:01]
B
We're good.
- [74:02]
A
Are we cool here? But, like, you know, like, that, like, it sucks. You know, just. It's work, you know, It's. It's. I love these conversations. We were talking about this off camera, too. Like, this is why I do it. But it's also important because so many people have had so many experiences, and I get emails every single day, like, thank you for just talking about this. You know, and it was hard for me. It took me a year, and I Knew Jesse would want to. He already knew about it because I told him a year earlier, like, right after it happened, and just unloaded because I was just a mess. And he happened to have me down to LA during the time I was a mess, and I had to tell somebody, so I unloaded all this shit off camera. But then he invited me down to finish this daco project and, yeah, I knew he'd want to talk about it. Didn't know if I could. Sat on my balcony and cried for like an hour, just like, can I even do this? You know? But it's important because this is real. It's a very real aspect of all of our existences. And if we don't talk about it, one, that's not seeking, you know. Two, there's so much more beyond this physical illusion that is so important to our existence as energetic, spiritual beings that we should absolutely be talking about. And I think everybody should. And it's hard, you know, you wouldn't believe how many people I know in this UFO community who have had very similar experiences to what I just described, but they won't talk about it. Interesting. And I understand, you know, they're. They're in faculty positions. They're in esteemed research positions.
- [75:38]
B
The secret college, so to speak.
- [75:40]
A
Yeah. And I absolutely get it, but I just. I don't know, I. I feel that whatever I get, and I do get a lot of. From people, especially on Twitter, Go figure. Is worth it, because this is real, you know, we should all be talking about it.
- [75:56]
B
Did you get the sense that the entity or entities were benevolent?
- [76:00]
A
Oh, extremely.
- [76:01]
B
They were seeking the goodness of mankind. They were trying to help in some capacity.
- [76:05]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. There's no question in my mind, which is another reason I agreed. I wouldn't want to be a part of something. And it's funny because after I talked to this with George on that road trip, his producer reached out to me on my way back saying, hey, George would like to have you on coast to Coast AM for four hours. And he's like, he never does four hours with the same guest. You should think of this as an honor. I was like, okay, that's nice, but I'm gonna be in New York on Eastern time. So we're talking about 1 to 5 in the morning for the show or 12 to 4, or whatever it was. But, you know, I was. That was the first time we really went deep on it because George knew the whole story from this road trip. He knew what to ask. And he's an amazing journalist. He's an amazing. Just interviewer in general. So the first two hours, you know, we talked about the theory, which I apologize, we haven't even gotten to.
- [77:00]
B
No, no, I think, I think it'll tie in better knowing some of the background.
- [77:03]
A
And then the last two hours was just this crazy shit it with question and answer. And of course, the main thing, this was demonic. These were demons. You know, they know the future. I'm like, bro, the angel Gabriel came to Mary and said, hey, you're gonna have a baby. It's gonna be the son of God. That's the same damn thing. You don't consider the Archangel Gabriel demon. So, like, why is it that we cherry pick and say, well, these must be demons or Eric's a demon. Eric didn't. It wasn't even him. You know, I was communicating with entities that transcend all of us, but that's still the default. People don't understand that. They say, oh, that must be demonic. And I grew up with that. You know, my dad, my biological father would always say, these UFOs are demons trying to lead you away from God and all this. And it's like, sure, okay, if you want to believe that, that's fine. But what I know and what I saw and what I felt during this intense interaction was extreme benevolence and unconditional love. It was your classic Ryan Gosling on Saturday Night Live. You know, like just love and light. And I felt so, like, connected to the universe. Then you got Kate McKinnon. Like, they shove shit up. But no, like, in that moment, it. It was what people feel, near death experiences. It was your classic love and light situation.
- [78:23]
B
What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I gotta tell you about an amazing service known as BlueChew.
- [78:28]
A
That's right.
- [78:29]
B
BlueChew is a service that basically delivers this chewable tablet to your door whenever you want. Once a week, once a month. I don't even know if they could do it that frequently, but they'll send it right to your door. You don't have to go to the doctor and have some awkward conversation with some guy in a lab coat. Some dude that's judging you probably. If I had to guess, with bluechew, it's super discreet. The packaging is discreet. It's just a couple questions on their website. And they will send you chewable tablets that have basically the same active ingredients as like a Viagra or a Cialis, but at the fraction of the cost and in a chewable form. It's great. It truly is. I mean, one time I was in the woods and we were cold, and everyone. It was raining, and I pitched a tent with the help of BlueChew, and everyone gathered under it, and we were safe. And it saved me and a lot of lonely people. So if you're interested in BlueChew, here's how you get it. You're gonna go to BlueChew.com and use the promo code. Gagnon. That's right. G, A, G, N, O, N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code. I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're gonna receive your first month for free. That's right. Bluechew.com. use the promo code. Gagnon.
- [79:33]
A
Check it out.
- [79:34]
B
Bluechew. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, it's interesting. The free will component, I think, is fascinating as well, because it is so integral to, specifically Catholicism, the religion I was raised in. But I think many modern religions sort of have this underpinning of free will and agency as we sort of interact with God, that we are willingly choosing God. And, you know, you look at the fall of Adam, it couldn't have been predestined or preordained, because why would a benevolent creator create something that was sort of bound to fail? Perhaps an omniscient God would know this, but isn't necessarily catalyzing it to happen, but is instead giving agency to the creation. And then even with the apparition of Gabriel, to the blessed Mother Mary, saying, you know, you will carry the savior of the universe, Jesus Christ, into existence. It's always pointed out to me, at least growing up Catholic, that Mary had agency. If you reread the scripture, she says, you know, do as thou will. Like, she accepts the will of God to let this thing occur.
- [80:34]
A
Yeah. And still, with future knowledge being conveyed like this is what will happen. Do you accept this?
- [80:41]
B
And she did.
- [80:42]
A
Yeah.
- [80:42]
B
Yeah. And that the free will component is always important because people try to, you know, put, you know, sexual violence into the story, which is, I think, far from the case. And I think, you know, potentially blasphemous.
- [80:52]
A
But I think so, too. Speaking of blasphemy, I wrote another book, a third book, that highlights that scenario, that story, in a very heretical way, but a very comical way. It's satire, it's funny, but in that Mary has absolute agency. She's the protagonist. She has control over everything. Very sexual. In fact, I hired two actors to read this book because I wanted to make an audiobook, But I Can't do that because it's fiction. And. And there's certain characters. They signed on to it, they were working their way through it. They get to that section of the book and I get a phone call, half hour conversation, half hour into it. Dude's like, hey, just so you know, we. We can't do this project anymore. I'm like, why? You know, he's like, we're Christian. I'm like, so what? You know, I was raised Christian. I appreciate Christianity. The book is about Jesus's teachings and how important they are and how we should all follow them. Because it's some, you know, really instructional information that is good for everyone. If we actually follow the teachings of Jesus, he's like, yeah, yeah, I get all that. But the way you wrote, Mary's character can't be a part of that. Sorry. And if people read the book, they'll see why. But it was never anything critical about her. It liberated her. Because I feel like a lot of the ways the story's been retold over time sort of takes away from the role of women. It's highly subjugated. Mary Magdalene is a great example. Or the women that Jesus interacted with in various capacities that were prostitutes or whatever. I think that's unfortunate. So I sort of flipped the script and brought the power back to the women and Mary in this book because. Yeah, I completely agree with you because I think. I think we oftentimes we'll take something like that and interpret it however we want. But you're right, the original scriptures give her agency in that decision.
- [83:12]
B
Yeah, it's just an interesting connection that I'm kind of making the moment. But I'm curious, do you think the entities have a familiarity with the teachings of Christ? Do you think? If you could ask them hypothetically. I don't even know if this is an answerable question. I'm curious what their perception of Christ would be.
- [83:29]
A
Yeah, I do. And I think it's tied in with UFO phenomenon too. I think it's all the same thing. I think these entities are probably just a very evolved form of consciousness that exists all around us that likely is tied to God in the strict sense of the Word. And again, they talk about that in the law of one a lot, that it was the initial thought. There's an infinite creator, and that consciousness imbues everything. And it started with thought, it started with light. Let there be light. Which I think is, if not consciousness itself, the transmission or medium with which consciousness is exchanged. I don't think it's any coincidence that that light in my neighbor's yard was the initial point of contact or that we have terms like enlightenment or seeking the light or the very first thing that was written is Let there be light. You know, I think light is very much instrumental to all of this. And then from that grew the smaller things that cohesed into bigger things. And then you have these logos that allow things to unfold in different ways, like you were talking about with, you know, localized agency free will. You create a space for these things to develop and they develop however they're going to, based on their own choice. That's what they talk about in that book over and over. I think you'll really enjoy it. It's just a really different perspective that has helped me a lot. But yeah, these entities are interesting with regard to the Jesus question too, because one of the first case studies in my second book, the extra tempestorial model, is this miner named UDU Ortena. He was a Dutch or German miner that came over working, actually not far from where I live in Montana. And he came across this craft. They took him inside, they showed him everything. They taught him how it worked. He didn't really understand it all, but it involved electromagnetism and counter rotating flywheels. And he wrote to John Glenn and explained all of this stuff because he was so struck by how advanced it was and how he thought this could help America if we had access to information about this technology. But I bring it up because Warren Astin, the guy who really went deep into his story, one of the things that stuck out to him the most is that he asked specifically, he was like, so do you guys believe in Jesus or religion or whatever? And what's interesting is he said that that is the one question they wouldn't answer. The one thing that they would not respond to him about or give him an answer to is the question of Jesus. And that I think speaks volumes because why? You know, they'll show them the craft, they'll show them where they eat and poop and do everything else, but they won't answer questions about Jesus and about religion. And I can't help but wonder if a lot of things and others have wondered this too. Diana Pasulka's written and talked about this a lot where a lot of things we see in these religious. You just did a whole damn podcast about this with like the ways that UFOs have worked their way into.
- [86:56]
B
Right. And how people interpret religious scriptures.
- [86:58]
A
Yeah, I was listening to that on the plane last night. The One about the Ark of the Covenant and Isaiah and Ezekiel. Yeah, and. And I think that's important because if we do take these stories literally, if we interpret the Bible literally, there's a lot of UFO in there. You know, the way people levitate, the way there's radiation burns. You know, the guy that got hit in the hand, I can't remember his name right now. The UFOs that are seeing all of this religious imagery, the star, actually, I think you mentioned in that episode, the star that led the three wise men to the manger. That's the back cover of my third book, because I think that was a UFO, too. Asteroids don't do that. Stars don't do that. UFOs do that. UFOs will take you to where the next Messiah was born. So if we take that at face value, how many other things that we have put into our religious texts, not just Christianity or Judaism or Islam, but all of the other religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, all of the different Native American indigenous belief systems, how many of those were influenced by things like that, by UFO encounters or telepathy or abductions? So, yeah, I mean, I wrote my third book as fiction. It's called Revelation the Future Human Past. I wrote it for a very specific audience, but it. Because I can't write that as a scientific book. I needed to write that as satire, and I needed to write it as fiction. But a lot of stuff in there I do think is probably accurate with regard to the way UFOs may have interacted with people through time and how that may have influenced religious belief systems.
- [88:47]
B
Interesting. Yeah. Again, looking at scripturally speaking, these ancient texts, to say that a light guided these people that ostensibly were wise, that some speculated they have astronomical knowledge, that they're stargazers, perhaps, and that they see this one particular light that then leads them to the birth of the Christ, which seems like a compelling and positive moment as it's sort of represented in the scriptures. And then for these other entities, perhaps the same entities, to not engage with the question of Christ, I find it's curious to me, are they. And again, there's also this question of, are these all the same entity? Right. Is it all the same choice?
- [89:30]
A
True. That's a really important question.
- [89:32]
B
Is it possible, again, I'm always going to be seeing things through my religious upbringing, but, you know, to say, like, you know, within the Christian tradition, there is good and there is evil and that there are positive entities and negative entities, and it's, you know, possible that, you know, the law of one and, you Know, the communication with Seth. These could be different entities. They could be, you know, different versions of the same consciousness. Like, I don't know if it's necessarily possible to parse what exactly it is. You know, was the wheel within the wheel from Ezekiel, was that angelic? And the serpent in the garden, was that necessarily demonic? Obviously, people have disputed these things, but it just leads one to wonder, and.
- [90:13]
A
Where do we draw the line between metaphor and something that actually was.
- [90:17]
B
Sure, right, Exactly. So I don't know. It brings up the question of not engaging with the question. Makes you wonder, okay, why.
- [90:24]
A
Yeah. And to the extent. Jeff Craple, who's a. A religious scholar, PhD, religious studies. @ the first Esalen event that he invited me to, he started his little talk, you know, like, welcome everyone's PhDs from all these different fields, psychology, biology. But he. And I guess I thought it was interesting, but he put a slide in his welcome presentation. What I just told you, the one question they wouldn't answer was about Jesus Christ. And then a pause. Like, let's all stop and think about that for a second. Like, this guy who studies religion and comparative studies and through time was like, wait a minute, this is really important. And the whole, like, welcome talk didn't really have anything to do with that, but he saw it as important enough to stick it in there and say, let's all talk about this. I. I agree. You know, I think. I think we could learn a lot from that, especially with regard to how much they might all be the same thing. Religions, belief systems, worldviews, how much they might have been shaped by these same types of interactions that we have now. These abductions, the telepathic communication, seeing lights in the sky. Was it all similar or the same, and they just developed these worldviews around it, or was it intentional? That's the thing I struggle with. Was it intentional? Some sort of catalyst to help humans sort of follow the carrot and the stick towards some other more grandiose realization later on. I don't know.
- [91:55]
B
Yeah, no, it's interesting. Again, I don't want to overly moralize things. I think that's probably a trap that religious folks can fall into to say, that's bad, that's good. Especially if things are helping people in certain capacities. Right. For a long time, weed was seen as satanic, but now we can kind of see it's used medicinally to help people sleep or with chronic pain. So. So I want to try to steer away from that on a personal basis, but it does leave a little bit of an Open ended feeling for me to say, like the fact that that specific entity. I don't want to group all type of spiritual entities.
- [92:28]
A
No. And I wish more people were like you. The world would be a better place. There's a lot of people still that just want to nounify and moralize and put into little boxes all of these things in it and then push them aside.
- [92:41]
B
Right.
- [92:42]
A
Not put it in a box and hide it in your closet, you know, with your porn stash. That's a bad thing to do. We should be talking about all of these things and be having these conversations about ethics and morals and just intentionality and free will and I think it's all important. But if we just put it in a box and stash it away. But we can't do that. Yeah, yeah, but that's not easy.
- [93:06]
B
That specific entity, I might look at it sideways, be like, all right, maybe. Maybe I won't accept a download from you.
- [93:10]
A
Yeah, well, and that's the thing. Had the. Had there been any sense, like, I'm a very empathetic, nice person, you know, I. I'd like to think I'm. I'm full of love. Had I had any sense that this was negative in any way, of course I'm out of there.
- [93:27]
B
Yeah.
- [93:28]
A
You know, yeah.
- [93:29]
B
No, of course. And I think, Yeah, I think most reasonable, you know, ethical people would probably do the same thing.
- [93:34]
A
With that said, who knows what the future holds? If the things they put in my brain were related to some cataclysm of some sort, even then we could say, well, they must be bad because, you know, maybe they know the future and it's bad and they don't stop necessarily.
- [93:52]
B
Right.
- [93:52]
A
No, I don't.
- [93:52]
B
I don't think the revelation of John is cataclysmic.
- [93:55]
A
Yeah, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate. Right. Again. I don't know what's in my damn brain. Which is weird as shit if you think about it.
- [94:02]
B
Well, no one really even.
- [94:04]
A
The ability to put things in my brain with a time release stamp. How do you do that? What is our brain? What is our mind? What? Our memories? You know, it's still. Yeah, it's still very confusing, all of it.
- [94:18]
B
Have you, have you received any other downloads since that one?
- [94:21]
A
Yeah, there's been a couple other times that similar things to that have happened through a mediumship. Or was it. Well, what's interesting is. No, once one of them, I was just sitting in my backyard feeling a lot of gratitude, just kind of looking at the house. There are a Lot of lights, we have these floodlights that go. We never turn them on because it's a tremendous waste of energy. But for some reason they were on. And I was just sitting there. It had maybe three beers and the. The same thing happened with the eyes open and the light. And then I'd have some missing time. I don't know how long I was sitting there. It was a nice night, so I wasn't cold or anything. And then that was an isolated situation. And then one night I was asleep and I woke up. Sat up. Usually I just wake up and kind of roll around because it's cozy. But I sat up and realized the same sort of color and light and information thing was happening, which I think is what woke me up. And then I laid back down. Exactly a half hour later, I sat up again. And this time I was like, oh, this. This is familiar. Like I knew it from that balcony. It was after probably two or three months after that, but much slower. It was a really slow process. And then I lay back down, instantly asleep, which also never happens to me. This happened probably five times where I would sit up. I was aware of what was happening, but it was like a break in the transmission. And I can't confirm this, but I had a sense that there was something above my house. I have no way of confirming that was just an intuitive sense. I didn't get up and look. In fact, every time I sat up, I was Only awake for 15 seconds, 20 seconds, lay back down, instantly asleep.
- [96:17]
B
Between the hours of 3 and 5.
- [96:19]
A
I don't remember the time of night. I don't even know if I looked at a clock, to be honest. But I was aware from that experience on the balcony that this was happening in the same way it did then. But instead of the fire hose of information, it was like a slow trickle and I didn't have the physiological response. The next day. My brain wasn't heavy, it wasn't crying, but I was aware that that same thing happened.
- [96:45]
B
With, again, no memory, partial memory of any of the download.
- [96:48]
A
I have no idea what was happening with either of those instances.
- [96:52]
B
And that was the last one.
- [96:54]
A
No, there was one other one too, which I don't think I've ever talked about because I don't like talking about it. So it makes me sad. But I'm willing to if you want, if you're comfortable.
- [97:07]
B
By all means. I would love to know. I think it'd be interesting. But.
- [97:10]
A
Yeah, well, I think it's important for what we're talking about, and I'll Mention too. Like there a lot of this stuff I'm talking about probably sounds insane. I'm aware of that. You're a more open minded person.
- [97:25]
B
It's extraordinary.
- [97:26]
A
It's extraordinary. It's at the edges of our circumscribed reality. Sure. Pushing at the edges so people don't have to believe it. You know, I'm telling the truth. It would be extremely difficult if this was a lie to try to maintain this lie and all of the details involved. Like this shit really did happen.
- [97:45]
B
Yeah. And I don't know if you have any motivation to lie.
- [97:48]
A
It sucks. I didn't want to talk about this.
- [97:50]
B
Right.
- [97:50]
A
You know, a year after this happened knowing Jesse would want to. And that was another thing that came up in this question answer session as I asked can I talk about this? Because it was clear to me instantly that it was extraordinary. And they said we want you to talk about this. So I felt kind of tasked to. And like I told Julian recently, like I dedicated my second book to the brave women and men who were willing to talk about their abduction experiences. Because I can't as a researcher do anything unless people talk about what happened to them. You know, can do observational studies based on the data that comes from people's experiences. And so I feel like that's what I'm doing too. In the same way. Just here's what happened to me. Do with it what you want. Call it demons and put it in a safe little box. That's fine. Tell me I'm lying. That's fine too. I don't care. It would only take a little bit of research to find out. At least with the Phoenix mini abduction that I'm not lying because there's a lot of other people that were involved and or saw it. This, this other one though was just me and a cat. So it's, you know, take it for what you will. There weren't other people involved. It's not verifiable in that sense. But basically the last year has sucked ass big time. It's been a bad year. I've had this chronic stomach pain that has gone on since mid February. Getting a colonoscopy next week. First one pretty excited about that. But they did the CT scans and all kinds of blood work and they don't know what the hell it is. So they're going to give me drugs and put stuff in my butt. Around that time, one of my best friend's child died in a horrible ski accident. And we got a little beautiful little kitten. And it it was very vibrant. My daughter's cat slept with her and like, all of a sudden it just wasn't acting right and its belly got real big and it had some, like, autoimmune disease. I guess that's untreatable. There's certain treatments in other countries, but the US hasn't approved them, so we don't have them. So this beautiful little kitten was dying in my arms one night, and I was thinking about my friend who had just died and just in constant pain. I also had a torn mcl at that time. And I was sitting in this chair in my office slash bar, slash living room area. And I was facing that same God light. And I don't know exactly how this works, but somehow I left my body and went over to the window that looks at that light. But I had the cat with me too. And that's what I don't really understand because, like, my body was still in the chair, but I was there with the light and the cat was still with me, like, dying. It was like the day before we had to put it down. It was pretty much already gone. So maybe it left its body too, I don't know. As it was about to the next day. But that was like. That was the most recent interaction where I was fully astral, out of body, communicating with them in a very, like, you guys kind of way. Like, what is this? You know, like, why. Why is there death? Why is there. Yeah, I just, you know, where do you go for answers with that stuff? And I was just trying to get some clarity and it. It was useful. I mean, it was like. It was like on the balcony, you know, when I was talking about sort of the crown chakra interaction, instant communication, telepathic communication, like seeing that beautiful existence where there is no pain. I was brought back into that for that period of time when I was standing at the door to my balcony with the cat. And there's. There was a lot of clarity in that moment. There were a lot of. Not answers, but just realizations. But I do remember just not feeling any of that pain, physical or emotional. And one thing that stands out is I. You know, it was kind of a back and forth. Like I was angry about all of these things. And I remember holding up the cat and saying, you know, like, why? Why this beautiful little creature and they. Whoever they is, is like, that's just me. You're just showing me myself. I was like, fine, but I like yourself in this cat body. You know, I love this little thing. But it made sense too. Like, it's we're all just the same thing in different physical vessels as far as I can tell. And honestly, a lot of the same channel material. Aaron, Quo, Seth Ra, they all say that same thing. So many religions do, so many different traditions argue that we're all just little droplets of light, you know, fractal expressions of source consciousness, as my friend Darren King likes to say. But what's funny is as much like that acid trip where you can't bring things back, I remember a lot of what was communicated in that moment with utmost clarity and understanding. Still didn't like it, still disagreed with a lot of it, but I saw things in a different way. But then I got back into my body. I remember very clearly just sort of sitting back down in the chair and just bawling. Like the clarity I had in that moment was just gone. And it was like just a really, I don't know, just a really hard transition to make. This place kind of sucks sometimes, this physical existence. I was trying to talk to Julian in the last podcast I did about this book and I couldn't remember the name of it, but since looked it up. But it's called Application of Impossible Things by Natalie Sudman, which was recommended to me by a woman named Sharon Hewitt Rowlett, who's doing this. She's an author. She's written about a lot of near death experiences. She was one of the runners up for Bigelow's competition, million dollar competition about best evidence that the soul survives bodily death. But she recommended this book and I recommend it to everyone as well. It's really interesting because she was blown up in Iraq and then had sort of a timeless out of body experience where she interacted with these beings in various ways and they would show her ways they could put her body back together and what her life would be like without a leg or without an eye. And she was a part of this. She got to choose how she would re enter her body and how she would go on to live her life. Because they were like, we need you back in your body. We need you to, you know, be alive still. But she was like, okay, but can you make it suck less? Like that shit sucks. And I, I can't do that anymore. I don't want it to suck this much. And there was sort of an agreement like, yeah, we'll, we'll help you. We'll find this way that you can live. Your body's up, but we're gonna make it so it's usable and you'll have some problems, but we'll we'll minimize those. And she got to choose. But then there was also an agreement that when I go back, things are going to be easier, which I thought was kind of cool.
- [106:35]
B
Were they easier for her?
- [106:37]
A
I don't know. I. I don't remember if she said. I think she did in the book. I just don't remember what she said. But yeah, I recommend all of your listeners read that one and they could probably answer that question. Because I do think she said that things are still difficult, but in a different way. But don't quote me on that. It's just what I remember. I listened to audiobooks because I have dyslexia and attention span problems, but I still don't remember everything from the audiobooks either.
- [107:14]
B
I read them. I don't remember anything. Yeah, it's an interesting moment, going to this light, sort of astral projecting, for lack of a better term, leaving your body, holding the soul of this being that you love that's passing away. And then asking that problem of evil as it's known in philosophy. Why does evil exist? Why do bad things happen? Why is death necessary? Do you remember any type of takeaway as to an answer for that? Did they obviously filled you with a piece in that moment while you were in that space? But was there an answer that you can kind of take away to say this is why evil exists?
- [107:50]
A
No, not really. I don't know if there is an answer in this illusion. I don't think we're allowed to know. I think we're supposed to seek answers, but I don't think we're allowed. Maybe I should rephrase that. I'm not sure if that's the right way of saying it. I don't necessarily think that we're not allowed. I just don't know if we can comprehend. And what's the point of being here and living in these bodies and doing these things in this physical reality if we were able to understand all of those things? If this is a place where our soul comes to grow and develop and face those hardships as catalysts that help us to further evolve our spiritual essence, what point is there to have a cheat code and to know the answers to those things?
- [108:49]
B
Yeah. The point of the movie is to.
- [108:51]
A
Watch it, is to experience and learn from it.
- [108:54]
B
Yeah. It's not necessarily to just know everything that there is about it.
- [108:57]
A
Right. It's meant to be experienced and suffering and bad things are catalysts for other things, for growth. You know, like if think about Trustafarians and how they just Do a lot of drugs and drink all the time because there's never any hardship in their life, you know, And I'm speaking of a couple people I know personally, but it tends to be the case for a lot of people, just never. And that's what sucks. Like, you want to take care of your kids and, you know, help them with bullying and any problems that they have, but they need to live their own life and experience their own things. So the best you can do is support them. But if you try to shield them from all of those things, they're not going to grow. You're robbing them of the experiences that will help them become what they are in this body, in this time. But we all have to experience those things in a cosmic perspective to grow our souls and evolve our existence for whatever comes next. I'd really. I don't think this is it. Like, I think we're going to leave these bodies and go on and do a lot of other things and other bodies. And this is just one small snapshot of a much bigger existence. It's just my personal take on it.
- [110:15]
B
Thank you for sharing that experience specifically. I know it's difficult, and just even feeling the heaviness of how you're describing the emotive state that it brought on to you, it's extremely difficult. I'm sorry that that happened.
- [110:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, it hasn't been a good year, but everybody deals with shit. Everybody's going through, like, bad things. And again, those bad things aren't necessarily evil. You know, if we look at this question of morality and good and bad, positive and negative, good and evil, it's just. Yeah. I mean, many would argue that's why we're here is just to experience those things because you can't experience them. And the fundamental reality that we come from and return to now, the sadness.
- [111:04]
B
Of that moment, was it primarily the death of this pure soul that you loved, your daughter loved? Was it the download that you had received, or was it it both? Like, if you could try to pin what. The emotive state, like, what brought that upon, can you identify it?
- [111:23]
A
It was mostly the death of our. Our friend's son. Our friend, too. He's our friend, too. That was the main catalyst. And then just the. The constancy of the physical pain. And then this kitten was like the last straw. It's like, what the. Yeah, I just. Why? Yeah. And I mean, everybody's got a breaking point. That was just my breaking point. I needed to step out of this body for a while now.
- [111:53]
B
Do you think that fundamental reality that we may enter into once we're out of this physical body, how do you see that place? Or how do you, you know, given what you've experienced? What do you know about that place?
- [112:04]
A
I don't know anything. I guess my worldview currently is some amalgamation of personal experience, largely stemming from the balcony mini abduction and experiencing and remembering. But then also a lot of a big thing is that in that moment I realized channeled material is real. Like, channeling is real. That's what I was watching. Something was channeling through Eric and Heidi at that moment. I know they don't necessarily like that word. I haven't found a better one for it.
- [112:46]
B
Have you talked to Eric about it? Like, oh, yeah. And what is his perception? Like, what is his. Oh, I had to do this. I had to share this with you. Like, again, because he was partially him, but also partially channeling.
- [112:58]
A
Yeah, I started to mention this earlier and got sidetracked, if you can believe that. But, yeah, he walked out onto the balcony. He didn't know who I was. I didn't know who he was. And he sat down and he remembered saying the we need to be this close thing and the we know you've been thinking about quitting and we'd prefer you not do that. Yet he was fully consciously aware. For those. He didn't know why he was saying it. He didn't know me. He didn't know that thought. So there's no way he could have said that from his conscious mind. So they were already channeling through him at that point. But he was present, partially present. And then he says, from that point on, there's bits and pieces, but he was there. He wasn't completely. His consciousness wasn't completely pushed aside like Heidi's was. He was still there, but it was usurped or just cast aside to the extent that they needed it to be. But I mean, and then when those women came out, like, did he return for that? I never asked him. It'd be great to ask him, like, was that him that was, like, turned back on? Like, hey, can you go back inside? Or the way they all three turned, though, because I could see him out of my purse. I could see him on my periphery. The way they all three turned makes me think whatever entity was controlling him and Heidi were also somehow controlling them too. Because it was eerie the way they all three turned and walked in at the same time. Like, I remember that being a point of eye strangeness too, just the way that unfolded.
- [114:42]
B
And did you Ever speak with them about it?
- [114:43]
A
I don't know who they were.
- [114:45]
B
But one of them spoke to you afterwards? Potentially?
- [114:48]
A
Well, they did. I just don't know who it was. I wasn't able to lift my head and.
- [114:52]
B
Do you have an interest in talking to them? Like, do you feel like that would help to.
- [114:55]
A
I've tried to figure out who it was. Just everybody I've talked to has not been the right person.
- [114:59]
B
Eric didn't know who they were either.
- [115:01]
A
He didn't know any of those people. He wasn't even a part of the conference. He was only brought there. Well, he was going to be there already because him and Heidi, like I said, knew each other. This was. Was the first time they were going to meet and hang out face to face. And he's friends with Travis Walton, who had his abduction experience in the Sitgraves National Forest in 75, I think. So he's friends with Travis, and he was excited to hang out with all of them. He was just pulled up to the balcony for this purpose by them, through Heidi, for this thing. And I don't know what happened afterwards. I haven't asked him, but I assume they hung out and did stuff later.
- [115:44]
B
Does he do this frequently, Dina? And, yeah, he's sort of drawn to people.
- [115:48]
A
That's another thing. Is this was one of many data points for him. Yeah, no, I can put you guys in touch. He's. He's starting to, you know, emerge. I think there's even a little documentary about experiencers that features him prominently in it that's coming out, I think he said, later this month. So I'll send you a link to that if you're interested. But the three of us got together and talked on a podcast maybe like a year ago. Well, that kitten was still alive because it's in the picture. It would always crawl around on me, like, sit in my lap when I did these interviews. But, yeah, no, he. I don't want to tell his story for him. Sure. But he's had a number of tremendous, extraordinary experiences, some involving UFOs directly and has helped, he says, thousands of people across the world, experiencers who just don't know what to do with their experience. He's sort of taken on the role of, like, I don't know, like sort of a therapist in a space where there aren't a lot of people who have the understanding and experience that he does to be able to help people. There's obviously psychiatrists and psychologists that study the phenomenon and help people, but his role, I think, is A little different because of his knowledge and abilities.
- [117:19]
B
Now, everything that you've experienced that you've shared with us, how do you square this with your understanding of this future human hypothesis when it comes to extraterrestrials or extra temporal beings?
- [117:37]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. I ask myself that all the time. I have no idea what. There clearly is a connection because the whole reason they showed up, other than putting three things in my brain, was to ask me politely not to quit what I was doing. And the only thing I was doing at that time was talking about this future human hypothesis, extra tempestrials or whatever. So I don't know how those are related other than, you know. And it's important to point out, too, that when I asked how they knew my thoughts and I telepathically asked future human, they didn't say yes. You know, they just said, well, then you know how we know that? And I go, huh, I don't know. I don't really know what that means. So I can assume there's some sort of connection because that's what I was working on when they showed up to politely ask me not to stop working on it. But beyond that, I have no idea. There were no UFOs. Like, initially I thought Eric was a future human. He had telepathic abilities, the ability to control my mind and put things in it, not stuff you'd expect people to be able to do in the present time. So initially I thought he was a future human, which would kind of make sense and considering what I study. And then I learned more about him and his experiences and what he is and what he does, and realized that this is much more complicated than people coming back through time to push it in my brain. Like, this is about a cosmic reality that exists beyond this physical plane of existence. How that relates to the future human question, I also don't know. But I can only presume that there is some sort of connection based on what little bits and pieces of crumbs were left along this trail that I'm still walking down blindly. I'm not even hungry. And picking up pieces of morsels to eat that I'm like, yeah, I don't know, there's clearly some connection. I just don't know what it is. I ask myself that a lot, though.
- [120:06]
B
Yeah. The future human element that you were discussing, I think, with Danny that I found so interesting is that these grays that people report do look so bizarrely similar to us, that they are bipedal despite, you know, existing on some type of Far off planet, you know, how would they have evolved or, you know, possess the same sort of characteristics. Two eyes, some type of nose, some type of mouth structure, elongated brain.
- [120:35]
A
All in the same place, too.
- [120:37]
B
Yeah. Like, there is an element of that that is fascinating. The kind of the way that you sort of lay out the genetic morphology. We have these sort of. Of common ancestor with a sort of smaller head, large stomach and intestines to now our current version of the Homo sapien, a much larger head, perhaps walking more upright. I think you described it as domestication and that we've had this sort of encephalization of our minds as our brains have expanded, and that it kind of follows to reason linearly that you have these. The description of these grays, or extraterrestrials, for lack of a better word, travelers, perhaps, is that they have an even larger brain than us, they have an even smaller mouth than us, they have wider eyes, they have almost like a cuteness factor that you would describe. And it does kind of follow on this progression that you can kind of look at the progress of man to say, like, oh, it does exhibit something oddly human. And why does that exist in that way? So given kind of what I had laid out based off your research, when would these future humans have gone to some other place? Was this avoiding cataclysm in prehistory? Was this through some type of time travel mechanism at some point, ostensibly, it would have to be in the past. So how exactly does that work in theory?
- [122:04]
A
Yeah, that's a great question and very good synopsis of the research. That was spot on. Yeah, there's a couple things there. One is that it does seem like. And this is what a lot of people have said, because when I started talking about this publicly in 2018, a lot of folks were like, oh, I've always thought this. This makes sense. And, you know, if we live in space, our eyes will get bigger. Lack of light if we're underground, same thing. The radiation will affect our bodies and make us change faster. And that's all very possible, but we can't know what happens between now and then. So I sort of tried to just start at the beginning of hominin evolution and show for the lay reader, because obviously we know this stuff in biological anthropology, paleoanthrop biology, human biology, but just show what that progression was like and focus on dominant trends over the last 6 to 8 million years since we did start walking upright, which was the catalyst for us to develop into the way that we have what were some of the main Factors that drove our evolution up to now. And if we project those forward, how they might connect the past, present and future based on the same enduring trends. So whether or not we live in space or underground, we do know that since we stood upright, and especially in the last 800,000 years, that we've had a tremendous degree of encephalization. Our brains have gotten bigger, but not just bigger, they've also changed shape. So the brain has grown out over the eyes, and we're the only mammal that has a brain that sits on top of the eyes size. And you also have a lot of medialateral expansion of the parietal lobes. So our frontal lobe has increased in size and gotten wider, which is the main part of our brain for high level cognition, intellect, social skills, tool making, all of these things are important for our survival. And then also the parietal lobes have expanded, which is related to a lot of those things too, and motor function, but then beyond the brain, increasing in size and becoming globular, as we say. That's the trait that defines modern humans, is that our brains got. We got kind of bobbleheaded, you know, just got wider. And as that happened, we also had a reduction and retraction of our mid and lower face to the extent that we have a chin. Now, we're the only hominin species with a chin because one of the main drivers of facial reduction is the use of tools and fire. We can cut our meat, we can cook our meat, we don't need the masticatory muscles to chew, so our face can get out of the way of the Brinks. You can't have both. Like in the book, you probably remember the example of the dogs like the Doberman pinscher versus like a chihuahua. And those are pictures I took of dogs, one of which ruined a rug because it was the neighbor's dog that got loose and came in the yard. I like grabbed it to take a picture because it had that really long snout. Didn't realize it was covered in mud. I was house sitting for a guy and it ruined his rug, but I got the picture. And so, yeah, it's a good example of this because if you think of like a collie or a Doberman, they have this long projecting snout, a little sloping forehead versus a Rottweiler or a pug or a chihuahua that has a tiny little face and a big brain. So you can kind of imagine that scenario throughout human evolution, because that happened to us too, right? But once we invented fire, 1.8 million years ago, stone tools about 3 million years ago, depending on who you ask, we could take these things and cut our meat into smaller bits which are easier to chew. We cook them, you know, so it tenderizes them. And then our faces can get out of the way of the brain. Free use of our hands is another big one to even make those tools, to use those tools. So you have this feedback loop, what we call the runaway brain, where our brains getting bigger allows us greater intellect, which allows us cultural technological innovations that then allow our brain to get bigger. Because we can have this biocultural evolutionary situation where things like that, using tools, using fire, gets our face out of the way of the brain, brain gets bigger. And this has been happening throughout human evolution, especially in the last 800,000 years. So that's a trend that's not likely to just stop, that's probably going to continue into the future. Why? Why would it stop now? You know, and there's a paper, I didn't know about this paper when I wrote that book, but it has shown that given the networks and the ways in which the brain helps with intellect, that the ideal brain size is actually three times larger than a modern human brain, brain. And our brain is already three times larger than the australopithecines, you know, if you can go back three and a half million years ago. So we're looking at basically that same amount of encephalization from these earlier hominins to ourselves, from us into the future, to have the ideal brain structure. So I basically started with that biological perspective, you know, when I was 8, that was the thing I saw the hominin, the modern human, the alien, and I saw this connection with our morphological form. And then rather than working backward and saying, well, they must be us, let me just find proof of that. Rather I was looking at this from a very open ended perspective with that awareness of potential selection bias and confirmation bias, like, oh, this must be right, because that would make us look like humans. Rather, I just went deep into human evolutionary anatomy. It was my main specialization in paleoanthropology and graduate school. And then a lot of my subsequent research and academic papers have focused on these too. It just seems inevitable, honestly. And then you have things like self domestication like you mentioned, where we have selection for pro social behaviors because we went from being hunter gatherers where to quote Carmen from South park, like, screw you guys, I'm out of here. You know, like you could just leave when your nomadic hunter gathers, but once we started to settle down during the Neolithic, about 12,000 years ago, you can't just take off anymore. Your family is there, your crops are there. All of the hard work you did to make sustenance for yourself and your family, you got to stick around. So you got to get along. You can still go fight with your neighbors. We do that all the time. But you got to get along with the people that you're with. And that self domestication process has led to craniofacial feminization where we all start to look more like, like females of our species. And they tend to have more of those characteristics that are future human ish. You also factor in paedomorphosis, which you mentioned, the cute characteristics. And that's a really interesting evolutionary characteristic of many species where you start to look more like the children of your ancestors as an adult. So you sort of. And there's different ways in which this happens. I had to write about this from a general's exams and doing my PhD. It's complicated as shit because we're talking about a change to the timing and rate of evolution throughout evolution with regard to ontogeny. So growth and development, how changes to our rate of growth and development are affected over evolutionary time. So there's two different types of changes that are happening and we have to study the way in which those take place. But, but outside of heterochrony which can be either one. So you could also have the opposite where you develop hyper fast and you have hyper masculine characteristics in adulthood. The opposites happen with humans. We sort of arrested our growth and development cycle, our life history cycle and we've prolonged it. So for instance, we're one of the only species that has a post menopausal, most postmenopausal, post reproductive phase in women. Like 90 year old with some cialis can still get it on and make a baby. But we have this period where we shouldn't even be alive because we can't reproduce anymore. And all evolution cares about is making babies, selective fitness. So we've sort of elongated our growth history cycle partly because we still need to get out of our moms. This is kind of getting into the weeds a little bit. I apologize. But, but one of the ways we can grow a bigger brain is because we have extended each period of growth and development. You know, like a chimpanzee at age 2 is basically like a 10 year old cause they just do it faster. We've drawn everything out, but we also stop at the point where we look more like the babies of our ancestors. And that's called paedomorphosis. It's a version of heterochronic, which gives us those cute characteristics and is related to that, that element of sort of. I think on Danny Jones I said like, why we don't throw babies out the window or something, Just kind of let that one slip. But it's very much all the same thing. It's all related. You know, we, we want to take care of something that's cute, even if it's crying and pooping everywhere. You know this very well because they're adorable and then sometimes they laugh and smile and you want to give them hugs and kisses. So all of these different aspects of our evolutionary history, from the biocultural, the social selection, the changes to our rate of ontogeny over evolutionary time at least to petomorphosis, these are long standing trends in human evolution that have continued. Whether we've lived in Africa or Asia or Europe or the Americas. Regardless of our political system, economic system, social system. They're just dominant trends that have continued. There's absolutely no reason to think they would just stop. If they do continue, we're very likely to look and act and have technology very similar to these alien beings that are flying around in our skies and picking people up and doing the exact same thing I would do as a paleoanthropologist if I had access to that technology. And then I mentioned earlier, the form of these crafts seems to indicate they have the function of traveling through time. Like it's not even just the evolutionary stuff. If you look at these machines, they're very similar to a Tipler cylinder where they have this rotational energy that can warp space and time around them. Engineer the space time metric is how Puthoff says. So really you can just put all of this into a big time travel soup and, and add a little salt and it tastes delicious. It makes sense to me.
- [133:16]
B
You have one excerpt from the book where you say that there was a gentleman who was abducted and then was precluded from some type of examination because he was too old. I believe he was like in his 70s or 75. And they said, you're not useful for our purpose.
- [133:30]
A
There was another one that got rejected because he had a vasectomy. Yeah, because there's a very, very heavy focus on gamete extraction. That's like, like the most ubiquitous thing in all of these different cases. People that initially weren't willing to talk about it later on will be like, yeah, that happened to me too. And you gotta, gotta wonder like the same thing. We're talking about how it's hard to discuss the. You Know, this weird that's been happening to me is like when somebody puts something on your junk and you ejaculate into a tube, you know, that's violating. That's your. No, no square. That's personal space. Somebody puts something in your butt to take fecal samples or whatever they're doing up there. That's, you know, that's pretty invasive. Willie Strieber compared it to.
- [134:18]
B
I mean, yeah, if it's not consensual.
- [134:19]
A
I mean, it's not. And certainly not consensual. You know, it'd be funny to know if there was somebody that just, you know, went doggy style. Stick it in there, baby. Let's do this, you know. But 99.9% of the time, no, they're doing things to us without our consent. But yeah, the gamete extraction, I also spent a lot of time on that because it makes sense, given other recent trends in human evolution, largely related to a 50% reduction in sperm counts in men worldwide, 60% reduction in the last 40 years in Western developed nations, which is largely attributed to pollution and microplastics, which tend to accumulate in your balls, I guess. Yeah. So just. There's reduced fecundity and fertility in women, too. Also genetic homogenization. We used to have different populations that could interject gene variants into other haplogroups. And we're eventually becoming one isolated inbred population on the island of Earth. So if that continues, where do you get new gene variants? You can't go to Mars, you can't go to Alpha Centauri. Maybe you can, but even if there's beings there, they're not going to look like us or probably even have DNA in the same way we do. Unless we're all seeded by something then, of course. So you go to the past, you combine that with the rather ominous predictions or sensed knowledge of an impending cataclysm in the future, which would create a massive genetic bottleneck. You might need those genes. And a lot of people, mostly just me, I guess. I don't know why I try to attribute that to a lot of people. I've heard Whitley say this too, and maybe others too, so I guess it's not just me. But what if this period of intense focus on gamete extraction that took place from about the 60s to the early 2000s and then seemingly just tapered off? You don't hear about dudes getting, you know, the, the, the tube ejaculations anymore. And women, too. It didn't just affect males. A lot of women had fetuses implanted, taken out, eggs extracted. So it's both sexes, but this intense focus on gamete extraction. Why now? Why in that period between like the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s? If you look at that in the context of this very strong sense that there's an impending cataclysm that will affect all of humanity. If these are future humans, it makes a lot of sense why they'd be coming back to this time that predates that cataclysm and that massive genetic bottleneck neck. There could also be environmental factors like our genes might, you know, just be going to. Because of the environment. There's folks that argue that we're going to hybridize with technology and we might get to a point where that's a runaway train that we can't come back from. So we need to circle back to get wild type genes from pretty singularized. Yeah, pre singularity genetic material. I don't know. Clearly it's important. It makes more sense in the context of future humans than it does extraterrestrials in my mind, for a lot of those reasons I just listed. But that is one of the main things, is that there's a really heavy focus on genetic material and reproduction. And then people, you know, claim they've had babies given to them, like, this is yours. We made this from you. There's all of the reports of these hybrid babies floating in exogenesis chambers, incubation chambers. There's ones like Travis Walton, who interacted with both the short grays initially that were doing a medical intervention on him after he got shocked by a ufo and then later by a human, a large human with a familial connection to the other individuals. Like they were all made from the same stock of gametes. Hybrids, essentially. So, yeah, there's just so many things that seem to paint a picture of them being us coming back to do things that aren't evident yet. But if you take it seriously and look for patterns across all of these different accounts, you can kind of get a sense of what might be happening, who's doing it, and potentially why.
- [139:06]
B
What do you make of arcane texts that sort of reference similar things to this? The Book of Enoch describes watchers coming down and breeding with human women. Or I believe even the Epic of Gilgamesh describes the gods or these supernatural deities coming down and co. Mingling with human women, specifically.
- [139:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like what we talked about earlier with, with how we have these same types of things happening over long periods of time and we just Interpret them based on our cultural knowledge of that time, which I think you also mentioned in your cases of the Bible and religious texts. Like we could have the exact same thing, and I think this is further evidence that they're time travelers, personally, is that you could have the exact same thing that's happening to people now and in the 80s and the 60s and the 50s happening to people 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 years ago. But they're not going to explain it with lights and electromagnetism and anti gravity capabilities because they don't have that terminology. They're going to talk about wheels within wheels and burning embers, chariots, voices booming and yeah, levitation and all of these things that make sense to them. They can only put it in the context of what they understand. So it could be the exact same thing, the exact same time travelers. Imagine it's the same group of people that pick somebody up in 2010, that also picks somebody up in 2000 BC. But they're going to be described in such different ways because of the cultural understanding of that time. That could be argued for extraterrestrials too. I'm not saying it's evidence for this per se, but clearly there is a time component to this. And if you are going back in time with similar technology, the way Ezekiel described it is very similar to how we would describe a modern day ufo, but we would ascribe the words that we know now that they didn't have.
- [141:04]
B
Then and then as far as our understanding. Again, time is linear to us in this space. But, you know, all spiritual, religious people understand that there is a existence outside of time. Obviously we understand that space time is, you know, different depending on where you are in relation to mass and gravity out in the universe. So as far as the timeline would go, perhaps a million years from now, Homo sapiens, or whatever, that hominid future ancestor, develops time travel, and then they're able to then go backwards in time from that point.
- [141:38]
A
Is that a. I don't think it's going to take a million years, honestly. And I apologize because that was a part of your initial question that I sort of danced around and never addressed. But there's a couple reasons. I think that. One is that a lot of these entities, one, one bit of oversight from my first book, identified flying objects that I published in 2019, was mostly derived from that experience I had as a kid where it's like chimp, human, alien. So I was, I was focused on that Grays question, which are probably future humans from a very distant point in our evolutionary future Based on their physiological characteristics. However, in researching my second book, the extra tempestrial model, I realized very quickly that there are a lot of cases that involve humans that look exactly like us and aren't hybrids. Many of them speak vocally. They haven't even reached the point of telepathic communication yet. They have bathrooms and kitchens, and their clothes are all over the floor in their bedrooms. A lot of people are given tours of these ships. The people that freak out and scream the whole time they're in and they're out, but the people that are kind of cool with it or have been on these ships before and have already gotten past the ontological shock of that initial initiation, they get to hang out, ask questions. There's a lot of people that reached out to me that said they told us they were future humans. There was one woman, I found this case really fascinating back in 2020, I think it was. She told me that they were at a desk. They're all sitting around this desk, and she was being cool. So she got to ask them questions. And they said they specifically told her that they're future humans. But they don't want people to widely recognize that, because then they might focus on what they look like and use that to fight over who's going to dominate in the future. She thought that there might be wars, or they communicated to her that it might lead to wars or some attempt to become the ones that are in these craft that have this technology in the future and the ability to go back. And then you got to wonder, too, if that is the case. Take this a step farther. What about when grush is talking about how some of these craft didn't just crash, they were landed and left? Is that gifting technology to yourself and your society, your nation from the future? Is that some kind of time war? In a sense, you know, if you can reverse engineer this technology that was gifted to you from the future, how does that relate in a global political context or an economic context? And I get the sense that farther enough into the future, all of these petty divisions that we have now Aren't going to matter. We'll look at humanity as one thing without this ridiculous sense of nationalistic pride that, combined with religion, has created most wars in human history. I think we'll evolve to the point where we see the unity in humanity Rather than focus on these constructing the other arbitrary differentiations that we have. But prior to that, what they told her in combination with grush saying that some of these were gifted does raise some interesting questions.
- [145:09]
B
And then furthermore, why were you so encouraged to do this work if some of these future humans are reporting that they don't want people to know that they're future humans?
- [145:19]
A
Yeah.
- [145:20]
B
Have you pondered that?
- [145:21]
A
I have, yeah. And, and it is, you know, I, I do. One thing that I do, I am bothered by is that there's not a lot of reports of Black people and UFOs that, that bothers me. In the UFOs, in the UFOs, you know, you have the East Asian looking ones, you have the Nordics, you have a lot of Caucasian people. But it kind of pisses me off that there aren't, aren't a lot of descriptions of sub Saharan African characteristic individuals. If we were to go back in time now from this current point in history, and I do discuss this in both my first and second books, are we seen in the future? If these are future humans, are we seeing the remnants of current geographical racial disparities, Ancestry as we call it, because we don't use the term race anymore because it's completely meaningless, biologically speaking. But are we seeing that continuation of modern geographic variation? So like Nordics, probably northern Europe derived, East Asian like Whitley described, they look Asian but just a little more slanted of their eyes, larger eyes, or are we seeing variation across time? So temporal ancestry, where like the grays are probably from a very distant point in time, the East Asian characteristics might be a little before that, I don't know. But it does kind of bother me that there aren't descriptions of black people in these craft. And that might be a part of what they were talking about in relation to not wanting people to, you know, fight over who dominates the future. But innately, if they are future humans, and we're talking about it, and we're supposed to be talking about it and it's supposed to increase as a viable theory within the space, then it's also inevitable, like you're talking about. But it's still a question how many people are listening to me talk about this? A lot of people don't give a shit about UFOs in general, which is also really weird. But this isn't fact. It's not something that we would take up arms over per se, because it's just one little theory out of a number of other theories. So yeah, I don't know, like a lot of this stuff, I hear what people tell me, I add it to the data set, but I try not to just focus on one thing. But I mentioned that because I thought it was an interesting aspect of this whole situation?
- [147:59]
B
No, it absolutely is. I mean, are there any reports of black people on ships to your knowledge? Knowledge?
- [148:04]
A
I don't, I don't know of any. But. But like, I was like I started to say, you know, if, say some nations had time travel capabilities right now, you know, you're probably not going to have. Unless there's some Wakanda, like civilization that exists in sub Saharan Africa, there's not a lot of nations. And this is largely because of European colonization. Yeah, of course this isn't anything about black people or their abilities. The opposite. Like they were victim and beaten down, subjected to the extraction of resources and slavery. Like, there's a lot of reasons why you don't have NASA like programs in Kenya or, you know, Nigeria and other places like that. Like, there's a history involved that we all need to acknowledge. But largely because of that, if you were to have groups going back from right now, it would likely be highly developed, technologically advanced populations in South Korea, Japan, China, Russia, Western Europe, US Pretty white and Asian looking groups. So does that persist into the future? And again, I don't think it's going to be that long into the future before we start doing this. I initially started saying my first book, I made the mistake of thinking it's going to be 50, 60,000 years before we look like the Grays and then they're going to come back. Back. No, I think it's going to be within 100 years, most likely. We already have this technology and importantly, at any point in the future when it's developed, it exists in all of the different points in the past that can be reached by that time machine. It doesn't have to be invented right now for us to time travel. If there's people 300 years in our future that have a time machine, it also exists now. If they're able to come here, they can pick us up and take us as far back as they want. They can land this thing wherever they want. They can crash it and we reverse engineer it. So there's all of these different components to that question that I think a lot of people overlook because they look at it as linear. In linear time, you would have the invention of this thing and then it exists. Not the case with a time machine. It exists at whatever point in time it can reach.
- [150:24]
B
Dr. Masters, this has been phenomenal.
- [150:27]
A
Are we done?
- [150:28]
B
I think so. Unfortunately, I have to run, but I could chat with you all day. I would love to do this again. As a matter of fact.
- [150:33]
A
You should. Yeah. It's such A cozy environment.
- [150:35]
B
This has been awesome. Thank you so much for the time. I appreciate you sharing your story. Absolutely. I notice even the difficult details and then additionally sharing your research is fascinating. I'm definitely going to finish Identified Flying Objects and probably get through a couple of the other books because it's, I mean, right in my wheelhouse. And again, I would really love to discuss more of this at length. I think there's a lot more here.
- [150:58]
A
That there is, you know, that I would love to know. I hear people all the time, they're like, yeah, your idea is stupid because I heard what you said on this podcast. I'm like, well, I can only describe so much of the theory and these long form ones are great because you can go a little deeper. But this is why we write books, you know, we don't write them because we have dreams of making it rich. As an Author, I'm not J.K. rowling. I'm writing this book to try to explain this theory and there's a lot more detail in there. So I do recommend the books. The first two Identified Flying Objects and the extra Tempestu model are very scientific grounded approach to this, where we go deep into the things we've been talking about. But yeah, no, I appreciate you having me on. It's great to be able to discuss these things and. And kind of, yeah, just approach it in different ways. Every one of these conversations is different. I really love that.
- [151:51]
B
That's awesome. Well, I hope 2025 is a little better for you.
- [151:55]
A
Yeah, me too.
- [151:57]
B
Thank you so much. Let's do this again soon.
- [151:58]
A
Thanks, Mark.