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- [00:00]
A
Being around them, you know the line not to cross. The waiter over there, the guy that's got a roughed up looking face and some messed up ears, that's an enforcer, you call him. He's the guy that'll break somebody's leg. Those are the cast of characters that I grew up around.
- [00:11]
B
This is Tony Hernandez. He's a former NYPD transit cop who has an absolutely fascinating life. He's been on this show before where he explained to us his craziest stories as a cop in New York City. But today, it's gonna be a little bit different. Tony, despite his last name being Hernandez and looking like he plays his speaker too loud on the L train, is actually half Italian and grew up spending most of his time with his Italian family here in New York City. And Tony's connection with the Mafia in New York City goes deep. As a matter of fact, his family was actually connected to the French Connection, a drug smuggling operation from Europe to bring drugs into New York City.
- [00:44]
A
The mob always controlled Virgil Alessi. He was connected to the French Connection. Him partnered with a guy named Vinnie Papa. All these guys were heavily involved in the narcotics trip.
- [00:54]
B
On top of that, he knows all the spots that the real New York City mafiosos used to go. Not the stuff you see in movies, but, like, the real places. And he tells us everything.
- [01:02]
A
It's all about respect. The Parkside and Corona that was run by tough Tony Bermontes has a rumored past of being connected to the wise guys. I'm not saying they're connected.
- [01:10]
B
And of course, Tony tells us what it was like working inside a mob joint. That's right. He actually worked with his father in a restaurant that was owned and frequented by mob boss.
- [01:20]
A
I winded up working in these places as well. Like, me and my cousin would open the doors and we would get like 50 bucks and be like, holy. We used to leave it hundreds of dollars. Forget about it. It was like the best thing ever.
- [01:30]
B
This episode is absolutely fascinating. If you were interested in New York City Mafia stories, this is the one for you. I'm telling you, nobody knows this stuff better than Tony because he is as close as you can get and still be alive to talk about it. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and, you know, welcome to camp, Tony Hernandez. We're back. Thank you so much, brother.
- [01:54]
A
Appreciate you having me back, man.
- [01:56]
B
Absolutely. We talked a lot about New York City crime and your life as a. As a police officer in transit. But I kind of want to talk about a different area. Of expertise that you have growing up in New York City. You grew up around a lot of mob guys. And on your YouTube channel, you talk a lot about New York City crime as it relates to the Italian mafia specifically. But there's obviously a lot of mafias in New York. So I'm curious, what was your connection growing up to the mob and who did you know? What kind of guys were you growing up around?
- [02:22]
A
So I grew up in a neighborhood called the Hill. It's a little section of Flushing that borders Main street in the lie at that time, it was a generational neighborhood, especially when I was growing up, I guess you could consider me the last generation. My grandparents, my grandmother specifically was from Italy and they were. When they came over on the boat, they settled in Corona on National Street. Still has Italian influence or whatever, but it was very heavy back then. Spaghetti Park, Parkside restaurant we were talking about, that was one of my favorite spots or whatever. So like many other families, they wanted bigger, better opportunities for themselves. So on the other side of the park of Corona, which was the world's Fair, the Flushing Meadow park was Flushing the Hill. Nice little neighborhood, tree line suburbs or whatever. And they all moved there. But what also moved with them there was the organized crime, you know what I mean? It was just entrenched in the society of who they were. It was just part of the culture. So during that time, whatever, I would see things like as a kid growing up or whatever with my grandmother, because she was established in that neighborhood. And I didn't know it was mafia or anything like that. I didn't know these guys were gangsters or whatever. Guy would come by, drop off a carton of cigarettes to my grandmother. He'd have a big stack of cash or whatever, like as a kid, like, whoa, look at all that money or whatever, you know. But you're not thinking anything. You're like, oh, he sells cigarettes or whatever, you know. Then I would go into the Key Food, which was the local supermarket. And anybody that knows Key Food, it's owned by Taps, their parent company, which is a mob run company, at least mob influence. Patsy Conti, who was a captain in the Gambino crime family, he had like a 25, 30% stake in the company. And when a mob guy has stake in a company, I can guarantee nobody's telling him what to do. I can almost guarantee it that nobody's telling him.
- [04:10]
B
Even if it's a minor share, it's.
- [04:11]
A
Like, even somebody sure, you know who he is probably, you know, the kind of connections he has. And you, you know, a lot of these guys are presidents on paper. But you know, who's really the boss on the spot? That's a mob joint.
- [04:21]
B
Wow.
- [04:21]
A
So growing up, you know, I would go into the Key Food, and there'd be tons of guys in there. Some of them were wise guys. Later to find out, whatever, but they were super nice to me, give me baloney from behind the counter, a candy bar when I went into the candy store or whatever. Oh, they used to call my grandmother Dolly. Oh, your Dolly's grandson. Come over. Very nice people. It's the culture, you know what I mean? I didn't see the organized crime, what everybody thinks, the violence, you know, the Al Capone, the killing in the street and all that stuff. I didn't see that side of it. So, you know, growing up, whatever, these were just the people I grew up around. So my. One of my. One of my uncles, he came straight from Naples. He was born and raised there, whatever. He came to this country, I believe, when he was 17. He was not a member of organized crime, but his whole family that preceded him to this country were involved with organizing. They settled in the Queen section, Long Island City section, whatever. And during that time, there was a very prominent gangster named Virgil Alessi. Now, if you know anything about the mob, there was. The mob always controlled drugs. The myth is not true that the mob never sold drugs. They controlled every single aspect of the drug trade back from Lucky Luciano, whatever, Getting on a heroin bust. Vito Genovese, we're talking about the Godfathers. The origination of the five families of mafia were involved in drug trafficking. Their mentor, Arnold Rothstein, also a big H mover, involved in a lot of drug trafficking and stuff like that. So this just. This is all their predecessors. So they didn't give up moving drugs. They continually moved drugs.
- [05:55]
B
And do you think they hid it because there was like a little stigma? Like, you know, there's like this Catholic religiosity to these early mob guys. You think they were kind of like, ah, we're not really in drugs. Even though they were.
- [06:03]
A
Well, no, I think they thought it was a dirty business, but it had nothing to do with the stigma. And, you know, it's funny or whatever, because what's stigma? They'll kill people, but they won't sell drugs. It's like. It's a little, you know, it's a hypocritical. I think it was more of the. They thought the heat that it would bring down from law enforcement wasn't really worth it, which is Also hypocritical, because if you got a guy out there selling some powders for you or whatever, and each transaction is 30 years, it's not like the four or five you might get for bookmaking or loan shark and something like that, breaking somebody's legs. This is like life changing time that these guys are getting. So they might flip. However, it's also like an oxymoron or hypocritical because you're gonna send a guy out a button, man, you're gonna send him out to go push a button on a guy or whatever and take somebody out, which could get him life. But you won't let him sell drugs. I don't know, I feel like the Mafia in itself, the bosses or whatever, they're just hypocritical. It was almost the do as I say, not as I do. Because almost all of the bosses were involved in some kind of drugs. You know, Carlo Gambino put a drug edict. Nobody was allowed to deal drugs. However, there was certain members of the Gambino family that were heavily entrenched in drugs. And rumor has it that he had a boss from the west side, Genovese family, killed in the 70s for a drug deal gone bad using Gambino's money.
- [07:19]
B
Wow.
- [07:20]
A
So it's just all a big hypocrisy. So going back to what I was saying about Virgil Alessi, he was connected to the French Connection. Him partnered with a guy named Vinny Papa, Vincent Papa. They were from the Astoria, Long Island City section of Queens. And they had a direct line to the French Connection.
- [07:38]
B
Now, can you, obviously people know the legendary movie the French Connection. Can you describe what the French Connection was in actuality?
- [07:44]
A
Yeah, so it was a group of drug traffickers from France. They were actually from Corsica, a little island off of France with Corsican mafia. Paul Carbon, Austin Rinkor, bunch of these guys, whatever. I forget the rest of the names off the top of my head, but they would source the opium from Indochina, Thailand. Don't forget, at that time a lot of that was under French rule. So they had, they controlled, I'm sure, the crops and whatever else was going on. Vietnam, all that, Burma, all those kind of places. Thailand, you know, the basis of the French Connection comes from those regions, you know, the Golden Triangle, Indochina, all that stuff where they would mine raw opium from villagers, farmers and stuff like that, smuggle it into France by way of Corsica, process them labs in Marseille and stuff like that, and then transfer the heroin through Canada, eventually to the United States.
- [08:45]
B
Wow.
- [08:46]
A
So there was Big players from a lot of families involved in this, I believe Carmen Galante, obviously, he was the rogue, renegade banana mafia boss. He got killed in Bushwick here, Joe and mary's spot in 1979.
- [09:00]
B
Wow.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah. It's not far from here. So he was, he. He established a pipeline or whatever from the French with the Sicilians as well as Big John Omento. He was with the Lucchesis. I mean, all these guys were heavily involved in the narcotics trade. And one of the sources that Vinnie Papa was supposedly getting the heroin from, I mean, these were the guys that, when I say they had the French Connection when it got off the boat, they were the guys that got it first. That's what I mean. Like, that was their connection. The few guys that had it. You know, it wasn't just one guy that had it. It was a guy named Herbie Sperling. He was a tough little Jewish gangster connected to all these wise guys. He dealt with Nicky Barnes and all these top.
- [09:37]
B
Meyer Lansky probably.
- [09:39]
A
No, Lansky was different. I'm not sure if Lansky was involved in drugs. I'm sure he was, but that was the time. But a little bit before.
- [09:46]
B
I see.
- [09:46]
A
Yeah, by the 60s, I believe Lansky was already retired and stuff like that.
- [09:50]
B
Got it.
- [09:50]
A
This was the new generation. The guys that came up to like Herbie Sperling, he was like a gopher, like a phone man or something for Vito Genovese. Yeah. So it was like these guys have very entrenched in the life. So fast forward whatever to the 60s and now they have this prominent H connection or whatever that, you know, is supplying pure heroin to organized crime families. And Vincent Popper and Virgil Alessi were partners who had a piece, a direct line to it.
- [10:20]
B
Oh, wow.
- [10:20]
A
And at one point in 1975, Virgil was listed as one of the 13 most biggest drug traffickers in New York City. On the Italians. There was four Hispanic, I believe, five black and the rest of the Italian. One of them is Joe Decided. Joe Beck di Palermo. He's a famous heroin age trafficker with Lucchese family. And right above is Leroy Nikki Barnes, the famous Nicky Barnes. And Virgil's kind of this guy who was very well known or whatever. And he is my uncle Michael's family.
- [10:51]
B
Wow.
- [10:51]
A
So I kind of grew up around him. And my uncle worked for him. My father worked for him in legitimate businesses that they had. My father saw the terrible side of organized crime and my uncle did too, back in their respective countries. You know, my uncle would tell me stories, the things that he Saw in Naples, he's like, you know. You know, I really never wanted to get involved in that. Because you'd have to kill your own brother. That's what he told me.
- [11:13]
B
Wow.
- [11:13]
A
He would tell me some crazy stories, whatever, like. And he'd be shocked, you know. So, you know, Virgil spent a lot of time in jail during the 70s when he was doing, like, his rise. You know, he was a French Connection guy or whatever. So these guys, like I said, the mob outlawed the drugs, but these guys were all mafia connected drug dealers. You know, they were probably paying someone, but the mob was actually bringing the drug in. The guys that they moved it were guys like Virgil and Vinnie Papa who weren't made, but could have a meeting with Carlo Gambino. Not many men could sit down with Carlo Gambino, but Vinnie Papa could.
- [11:45]
B
Wow.
- [11:45]
A
You know what I mean?
- [11:46]
B
And so did you meet any of these guys?
- [11:48]
A
I met Virgil many times. And his partner, Rocco Evangelista. Yeah, Rocco, I saw. Rocco didn't die. Rocco recently died. Rest in peace. He died in 2021. So I never really spoke to him about any of that stuff. I didn't cross the line and ask him those things, like, because he was older by now, you know, this was when these guys were young, you know, they had served their time. They did different lives. Now, you know, I'm not really sure what, like, you know, I think Rocky worked for a company and Virgil had passed away. So it was like, you know, I knew who they were, you know what I mean? And I remember being young, meeting Virgil. I used to meet him a lot because I used to go with my father sometimes. A lot of the parties, like Fourth of July and Christmas Eve and stuff like that or whatever, you know.
- [12:28]
B
Wow. And they. They didn't treat you any different because you're half Mexican, half Italian. Like, they didn't see there was not like any type of.
- [12:33]
A
Like, I was family, you know what I mean? And my father was a respected man. You know. My father told me a story once, and Virgil used to give my father kisses on the cheek. Now, how many Mexican guys can get kissed by. And Virgil was made at this time, he got made later, which I'll tell you about. But how many Italian guys like that, of that prominence or whatever would kiss a guy like my father who's, you know, just family, but not in the world of organized crime on the cheeks? And the two at that time, that was big respect. Funny story is, he told my father one time, he said, tony, shave the mustache. That's like a thing with mob guys or whatever. Maybe it reminds him of rats. I asked him. I was like, dad, did you ever ask him why? He's like, nah, you just told me to shave it. But I was assuming it was something like that. There's only one guy who's allowed to have a mustache here, and that was my Uncle Michael.
- [13:20]
B
Wow.
- [13:20]
A
And I think that was because Virgil respected the fact that he came off the boat. And the Italians, you know, they had, like, their own thing going on, you know, like, they respected that, you know, so he was allowed to have a mustache.
- [13:30]
B
Wow.
- [13:31]
A
Remember what I was telling you about these wise guys? They're like the fucking Japanese. They're very, like. Respect is, like, paramount, you know? You have to walk on eggshells sometimes.
- [13:40]
B
Wow. Now, can you share what the business was your dad was running?
- [13:44]
A
Restaurants. Okay, Restaurants, bars, catering halls, stuff like that?
- [13:48]
B
Mm.
- [13:49]
A
Yeah.
- [13:49]
B
So can you explain sort of like, how that economy works? Like a mob guy, like a maid dude might have a restaurant, and then he gets, you know, good guys he respects to kind of, like, run it.
- [13:58]
A
Trusted people.
- [13:59]
B
Family usually, and so that kept your family out of the actual business of it. But they were obviously working with guys that were owning the restaurants that had the money and all that shit that were. That were mobbed up.
- [14:10]
A
Right. So both my father and my uncle were approached to join that life in any capacity, you know what I mean? Just because of. They were capable men. They know their background, they know their blood. I mean, they trace this stuff all the way back to Italy. Like, my uncle's generation and his family goes back in Naples for I don't know how many centuries, but a long time. So it's like they know where you come from, and that's really who they want to recruit. They want the people that they know. Will you ever rat in your family? Most likely not, you know, so that's the kind of people they want. And if they trust you, you know, they. They want you around them, you know? So my uncle was approached, like I said, and he didn't want to. He was approached in Italy, he said, but it was more the fact that he said, he's like, you know what happens when you get into that life? You have to kill people. And my father, he saw the dirty side of it from growing up and his cousins and shit actually getting killed. They pushed a boulder one time on my uncle in Mexico. They have the. You know, the big boulders on the side of the cliff or whatever in Acapulco, you know, where the cliff divers going, all that stuff. Or whatever. And my uncle was in the car with a girl and they fucking threw the boulder on or whatever and crushed.
- [15:18]
B
Him and that was it. So your dad saw that, he saw.
- [15:23]
A
That stuff and he was like, it ain't worth it in the end because, you know, you gotta do all this shit and yeah, you live a life, but one day it stops and then that's it. He's like, I'd rather, you know, their family so you could be close and you know, you'll make money with those guys, you know, just from being around them in a way just like, you know, the line not to cross. Now, is there some guys that did cross line? Sure, there was one of the bartenders there. Known bookie, used to bartender, whatever as a 9 to 5, but he was a bookie. The waiter over there, the guy that's got a fucking roughed up looking face and some messed up ears or whatever, that's an enforcer. He's just chilling there as a waiter. He's probably a street guy or whatever, but you call him or whatever and he's the guy that'll break somebody's legs. Those are the cast of characters that I grew up around.
- [16:05]
B
Hey guys, really quick. Did you know that on this day in history, in 1582, Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian calendar, which most of the world still uses. Uses today? Or that in 1957 the Soviet Union launched Sputnik 1, the first artificial satellite into orbit? This event triggered the space race between the USA and the ussr. I learned these facts pretty recently actually on the Smore Camp newsletter. That's right, Smor Camp, the inner sanctum. For this kind of show, we do a ton of research. I have different researchers and friends that help me find information. And not everything can make the episode either it's like too crazy, it's too like weird or gory and it will get demonetized on YouTube or it's just additional. And it doesn't always make it, but it always makes it into the Smore Camp Inner Sanctum newsletter. So if you are interested in expanding your mind, learning new information and being the most interesting person into every room you step into, check it out in the description or this QR code right here. Now let's get back to the show. Was it disrespectful for your father, your uncle to say no, thanks?
- [17:03]
A
No, not at all?
- [17:04]
B
No, no. Do you have to be careful with that or could you just be like, hey, I appreciate the offer, but I'm actually, I'm okay as long as you're.
- [17:10]
A
A man and you're respectful, there's nothing to be worried about, especially when you deal with organized criminals. When you deal with disorganized criminals, you don't know if they're gonna kill you over a five dollar hit of coke, you know what I mean? But when you're dealing with businessmen, and that's what they were, they were businessmen. Violence when needed, you understand? Not because I want to. Spoiled, out of control like everything else, but when you have the kind of respect of, you know, listen, I don't want to be involved, whatever. I just want to do straight or whatever. Unless you really have something they want, let's say, like something of value that they might go after you for. But usually you're protected. Like, oh, don't buckle him because he's so and so's uncle or cousin. Somebody will speak for you. Call it having their arm around you, you know, anybody got their arm around you, it's a saying, you know, that's what they say. So I don't think that they offended anyone by turning it down. It's just, it would offended someone more if you say yes and then fucked up or backed out, you understand? But if you say no from the beginning, how can you get upset?
- [18:06]
B
That makes sense.
- [18:07]
A
My dad was approached actually to set up like a drug connection because one of his family members was, you know, pretty prominent or whatever. I'm not gonna say his name, but he was pretty prominent or whatever. And when they found out that my father was like a cousin of his or whatever they wanted, the Italians wanted that connection.
- [18:21]
B
And he was like, I don't, I don't. That's not, that's not my role.
- [18:24]
A
They invited my father, a girl approached my father, a girl. And a lot of people will probably be like, oh, you don't know what he's talking about. Da, da, da. The mob doesn't use women. Blah, blah, blah. Are women in the mafia? No. Does the mafia use women to do their bidding? 1 million percent. Okay, so a girl actually came to my father. Flirt, whatever, you know, try to establish a bond to introduce him to people who were interested in his context. And he was. He didn't go to the meeting. He told me.
- [18:57]
B
Wow.
- [18:58]
A
That was like his way of saying no.
- [19:00]
B
Wow. I mean, that's like. It's just high stakes. You're playing, you're playing a high stakes game.
- [19:06]
A
It's really not worth it in the end because my father told me, like, when everything's. When all the chips started to fall or whatever. Especially since the fact that he could never be made. He would have been one of the first guys to die, probably. Fuck. You know, so he didn't really want that stuff.
- [19:18]
B
He made the right choice.
- [19:19]
A
He made the right choice.
- [19:20]
B
But if you're running a business, you know, a legit business for guys that are mobbed up. If I know one thing about mob businesses is that they're not, you know, fully clean.
- [19:28]
A
They'll never be 100% legit. You're correct.
- [19:30]
B
And so did he have to do anything or like, do you see anything while he was working that he had to be like, oh, all right. These books are not exactly correct. Or like, maybe there's a money laundering thing. Or did he see anything like that?
- [19:40]
A
They weren't in the back. They weren't in the back office. They were in the front running the joint.
- [19:44]
B
Gotcha.
- [19:44]
A
When you run the joint, you're responsible for what goes on in the place. At the time, my uncle was in charge. My father was his first captain. So you know, my uncle, hey, this is going on, this and that, he reports back. That's it. As far as finance, all that kind of stuff where the money goes, the envelopes and whatever else comes in, those are all made that was above his pay grade. That you actually have to probably be involved in that other side, the other thing, that's when they start trusting you.
- [20:08]
B
But he's gotta do all the hospitality with the dudes. When they come in, they have the table ready for him, make sure that.
- [20:14]
A
There'S no bugs, make sure that nobody's listening, make sure there's no rare people there or whatever. Is it safe to talk? Who's this guy? Or whatever. I never forget one time, and I winded up working in these places as well. That's how I kind of got in. I got into trouble as a kid. And the way to save me, my uncle, because I was dipping, dabbling as a kid, going there, like, me and my cousin would open the doors and we would get like 50 bucks and be like, holy shit, we got $50.
- [20:40]
B
We were like, you're rich, bro.
- [20:42]
A
We were like seven maybe, you know what I mean? And wise guys, they got a lot of money, so they would pop on. Then we started doing co check at like 11, 12, or whatever. Forget it. We used to leave it hundreds of dollars. We were like, 12. Forget about it. It was like the best thing ever. Dad, I want to go back to work with you. I want to go back to work with you. It was like a thing, you know, I wanted to. So finally, when I got a little older, my uncle, to keep me out of the street, whatever, you know. Cause he saw I was getting in trouble. I got arrested. I did some shit. And actually, the first time, no, I had some weed. And my father found my stash. So my uncle was like, oh, your father told me, you're getting in trouble. What are you doing that for? I was like, make a little money. Smoke, whatever. He's like, you want to come work with me? So he gave me an opportunity to be a busboy. And that's how I got in officially.
- [21:22]
B
Oh, wow.
- [21:23]
A
I did a little co check when I was younger. Like, I said holidays and stuff like that, and we would open the doors, but the real money started coming in. When I became a busboy, that was when I saw, like, serious money. Like, my friends at that time, minimum wage was 875 or something like that, maybe 775. If you made like 10 bucks an hour or whatever you're doing, fantastic. I was making 50 an hour, 40 an hour. 30 was bad. I was considering. You know, I was 14, 15 years old.
- [21:49]
B
Wow.
- [21:49]
A
So I was making crazy money. So when I saw that it wasn't a bad thing. You know what I mean? It wasn't really bad. I knew to keep my mouth shut about certain things that I saw and was just like, you know, whatever. Like you said, there's always something that goes on illegal. And it might not be the typical mob racket that's, you know, breaking legs and all this kind of stuff and shooting and moving big piles of money and drugs or whatever. But let's say there's filling up the liquor bottles, you know, taking the truck of meat from a guy that, you know, just stole it and shit like that. You know what I mean? Like, remember in Goodfellas when they're wheeling the thing in. In the front and then wheeling it out the back, things like that or whatever. I would see, like, there are illegal cartons and cigarettes and stuff like that, you know?
- [22:33]
B
Now, if a mob guy came into the restaurant, does he have a table set up at all times? Do they leave it empty? Or, like, do they have.
- [22:38]
A
Depends who you are.
- [22:39]
B
Like, what if they're packed? And it's like, yo, some guys just came in, like, hey, guys, we gotta wrap up. No dessert for y'all. Y'all gotta go.
- [22:46]
A
I'm sure that's happened. I never had to do it the one time. I've been around a lot of mob guys or whatever. You make them a table, they feel more special. Like Goodfellas. All the tables are all packed or whatever. Don't want to make you one. Over here, please come. It might be a small table in the bar, but this is just for you, you know? And then, boom, I get 100 bucks or something. You know, I used to play those games, you know, sometimes you make people feel more special to take care of you, especially the wise guys. They throw money like it's fucking water.
- [23:11]
B
Now, would a cop ever come in and try to, like, you know, sneak around or, like, snoop and see what's going on? Like, did you know as a cop.
- [23:17]
A
At that level, you wouldn't have nypd? Because cops and mobsters and cops, we run in the same circles. We grow up in the same neighborhoods. Our kids go to the same schools. It's kind of like, you know, who's who or whatever. It gets a level above, I think, when you go to organized crime. Now there's units in the department for it, but I think it gets a level above when the state police and the federals start touching it. And when the federals come in, you'll never know who's who. There's some that we knew, you know, like, you know, they're feds or whatever, but for the most part, no. There was one guy, one time, my uncle was like, VIP and, like, you know, it was somebody important. And then I saw. You can just tell what a gangster looks like. You know, me personally, I can. So I see this guy, like, oh, these are gangsters. So older. They were Polish from Greenpoint. So older. Man with a mustache and his bodyguard or whatever. This guy was a house bro.
- [24:12]
B
Just.
- [24:13]
A
He kind of looked like Fedor's brother Alexander. Yeah, Like Eastern European. Just face with the big features or that, like, his head was like a pit bull. Just huge. Whatever. And when I was. I was busboy at this time, I believe, and VIP meant at that time, whatever, because I was a busboy. Give him, like, cheese and olives or something. Not just bread. Give him something special. So I think I gave him maybe bruschetta and, like, cheese and olives. And as I'm walking with the thing over or whatever, the. The mob boss, I heard him say this because he's talking to my uncle or whatever, and he's like, who's that? Who's this guy coming over the table right now? That fucking monster of a man turned around, and I remember, I told you I seen the eyes of killers or whatever. He scary, dude, bro. Scary. Talking about six, four, like, 300 something. Just a big house of a man or Whatever. Ready to snap my neck in two seconds if that guy told him to. Yeah, that was one experience I had, or whatever. But the other guys, or whatever, most of them were nice, you know, like, they were classy guys. You know, a lot of I'm the man shit, you know, and you gotta. As a man, sometimes that's hard. But in the service industry, I don't think of that. I put my head down and I say, yes, sir. No matter what, I'm there to do a job. I don't care. Treat me like shit. Whatever you want, whatever. As long as you give me 100 bucks, I'll take it.
- [25:23]
B
Wow.
- [25:23]
A
You know, so that was. That was the kind of vibe I got growing up around those guys. It wasn't, like, bad or this and that, but. But going back to your question or whatever, I think that every single mob join or anyone that's, like, there, you know, you walk on your toes, you step on your. You. You walk on eggshells a little bit. But it's all about respect at the end of the day, if they see you're trying, if you're not being disrespectful, like, they don't expect you to go kick someone out of their table so you can get it. Some guys, they got egos that big, but most guys, you know, if you make them feel special in another way, you're okay.
- [26:00]
B
Wow.
- [26:00]
A
Yeah. So you wouldn't really feel any kind of problem if you didn't give them what they wanted or whatever.
- [26:06]
B
So what are, like, the mob spots in the area? Like, what are the mob joints that people would go to? What kind of guys would pull up?
- [26:11]
A
Like I had mentioned, I think, on our previous podcast, last time I was here, Parkside and Corona, that's gotta be one of the most famous ones that was run by Tough Tony, which is hilarious because the guy was a captain, a known captain, supposedly, according to the FBI, with the west side, the Genovese family. And never was in jail. Went to jail once. So you know what it was for? Shooting hawks on his roof because he had a pigeon coop with a shotgun. That's the only time he ever went to jail.
- [26:35]
B
Wow.
- [26:35]
A
Guy was a pillar in the community. Everybody loved him. He'd give money to everybody. The food is fantastic. You got politicians that eat in there, judges, wise guys. You know what I mean? That's the typical wise guy joint, for sure. There's a few more around this neighborhood. Bomontis, you know, has a rumored past of being connected to the wise guys. I'm not Saying they're connected. I said they had a rumored past of being connected to wise guys. And you could look it up on the Internet. It's very famous. A lot of guys used to operate out of there, you know, it was creeshies in this neighborhood. Also a known wise guy joint right now. Do you know where Joe's Pizza is? Right down the block over here. That was a wise guy joint.
- [27:12]
B
What was it?
- [27:12]
A
And nobody knows. It was a ball, I think. I have pictures before. My friend from the Navy, he was going to jail. He was going to take a little rest. We had his going away party in there. Yeah, the guy's name was Rocky. I won't say his last name. That had that spot. He used to own a bar under the bridge too. But I was too young for that one. And my father would tell me about it when he found out I was hanging in there. He wasn't happy. But it was a bar, so when you walked in it was a corner spot. Had like one of those old school doors where you. Like diagonal almost where you walk in. It was like a little lounge. Like a couple old ass couches, straight hipster style, you know, like fucking. They just found some couches in the garbage and put them in there. A little dance floor, then a nice bar in a backyard. And used to be able to just chill all night. He was like a bookmaker. I know he used to sell a little dope and his lady a little coat to the patrons and stuff. Just like a supplement. I don't know what else he was into, but I know for sure he was a connected guy. He passed away and they try. Two girls, I believe tried to run that ball for a little while. Yeah. After. I think he might have sold it to him for nothing because they were like his longtime workers, but they didn't do well. And Joe's boy and turned into a pizzeria. Wow. Yeah.
- [28:17]
B
And so what kind of stuff were these guys doing in the restaurant? Like card games, like stuff like that. Like I imagine, you know, it'd be like a little gambling, little, you know, like hangout.
- [28:26]
A
So there's a coffee shop and there's tons of them. So I'm not outing them as I used to go to in Middle Village. And it's bakery, gelato in the front and straight up Atlantic City in the background.
- [28:41]
B
Really?
- [28:41]
A
Yeah. Roulette table, card table, craps table, security cameras and shit.
- [28:47]
B
Probably, of course.
- [28:48]
A
Wow. You know how many spots that you can probably walk into as a civilian or whatever, not even being connected and see A joker poker machine. I saw one the other day. Yeah. At a bar in Ridgewood.
- [28:58]
B
It wouldn't even cross my mind.
- [28:59]
A
You wouldn't even think that it's illegal. You'd probably be like, oh, look, a nice little nostalgic slot machine.
- [29:03]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [29:04]
A
You know, and they'll tell, like, oh, this is just for fun, but everybody knows whatever what's going on.
- [29:08]
B
And so how do you get into the back car game? You gotta know someone like.
- [29:11]
A
Yeah, yeah. To actually sit down at a card game. I sat down at a card game for the first time when I was 15.
- [29:16]
B
Oh, wow.
- [29:16]
A
Yeah. And it was definitely, like, connected people, street guys and stuff like that. I was just drawn to that. The things that I like to do, the illegal vices that I like to do back then are now legal as long as you do them within the confines of the United States government's parameters. You know what I mean? They don't really have a problem if you smoke weed and gamble, as long as they get their cut. But if you're rolling dice on a corner and you're smoking a blunt, in my day, you would be fucking locked up for a little while.
- [29:38]
B
Yeah.
- [29:38]
A
You know, so those are the things that I kind of liked as a kid and I would gravitate towards. So that's how I would find these underground card games. And then where I was was very situational, like where I grew up, because I spent a lot of time here as well, in Williamsburg. And if you know anything about it, it's a very connected mob neighborhood as well back in the day. Probably still is, you know, but growing up, whatever, you know, I was close to downtown Flushing, So before the Asian invasion or whatever you want to call it, that came up Main street or whatever, going that way towards the hill, you know, there was a lot of Chinese gambling spots down in Flushing. A lot. A lot. And one thing about the Chinese gambling joints, as long as you don't cause no problem, they'll let anybody in there. Really? Anybody in there? Anybody.
- [30:25]
B
Did you ever play those games?
- [30:26]
A
They play, like, mahjong and a couple other games or whatever. I would try to play the dice games that I knew, you know, but I wouldn't really. I didn't get too much into the car games. And blackjack, they had blackjack, probably baccarat, they had baccarat. They did have a roulette table in one of the ones I went. There was one. I didn't see it, but there was a sergeant that I worked with, and he told me in. In Ozone park that used to be Gotti's neighborhood or whatever, you know, a lot of wise guys are from there. Another generational neighborhood that's lost. It's all West Indian, Guyanese, Trinidadian Indian, you know. Now he told me that it was on Liberty Avenue, I believe. And they got a call for like a disturbance or whatever, you know. So they're like this Guyanese restaurant or whatever. And they go in and in the basement was the most intricate, full fledged casino he had ever seen in his life. Like slots against the walls. He's like, I felt like I walked into Trump Plaza back in the 90s. He's like, slots against the walls. They had posters, everything in the basement of a bar on Liberty Avenue in this time right now going on. I'm not talking about 80s 90s Italian stuff.
- [31:34]
B
I'm talking about right now, people upstairs drinking regular Joes. And then downstairs, full casino. Wow.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah.
- [31:41]
B
And you got to like, know a password. You got to come in with a guy.
- [31:43]
A
You got to know someone. There's a lot of them. I mean, I'll take you with me if you want to go, if you like to gamble. But I don't even know some of them. I know I'm not allowed in anymore. Cause I haven't. I don't even know if they're around anymore, some of them. But I know some that friends of mine will take us in.
- [31:55]
B
And how. I mean, how'd you do that first card game you played when you were 15?
- [32:00]
A
What do you mean by how I did?
- [32:01]
B
Like, how'd you do?
- [32:02]
A
Oh, did I do good?
- [32:03]
B
Yeah.
- [32:03]
A
I don't remember, to be honest with you. I was just so excited to be there. I was a little nervous, you know. I'm sitting down with men, grown men at 15, you know, and they treat you like a man. But your money. Cause your money's green but you know, you can't get away with. Oh, I'm just 15. I didn't know. Not at those games, you understand. Like, you better come correct with everything.
- [32:19]
B
If you win too much, do they get pissed?
- [32:22]
A
I've heard stories where guys weren't invited back. I heard stories where guys got fucked up. But in my thing, nobody got robbed or anything. They would just make you feel uncomfortable, maybe so you wouldn't come back.
- [32:31]
B
Interesting.
- [32:32]
A
Yeah. Like talk shit to you and stuff like that, you know. The guys were older and Italian and, you know, some of them could be arrogant, you know, like they think they're better than you in a way, you know. So I look down on you and talk shit to you and it's like you might be semi connected but it's like I'm not gonna start a problem with you anyway. Talk your shit, whatever. I'm just here to play cards.
- [32:50]
B
Were women around at all?
- [32:52]
A
There was girls serving drinks. Yeah, yeah, girls serving drinks.
- [32:54]
B
But they were, they were employed. There was no like women playing.
- [33:01]
A
Nah, I don't think I ever sat down with a woman playing. I'm trying to think, but no, but it makes sense.
- [33:05]
B
This is, you know the way these guys are gonna take a break from the family and go hang out with some dudes.
- [33:11]
A
Yeah. And one of the, one of the girls, I knew her or whatever, like she was a bartender in the place and they asked like, hey, you want to come and wait on these guys? You know, they'll tip you or whatever. And she was the one that actually got me into another game. Yeah, so sometimes it would be like that. I used to be quite the ladies man. So I used to run around.
- [33:25]
B
I couldn't imagine.
- [33:27]
A
Don't call me Tony Handsome or nothing. So you know, I would. And that's how I would. That's honestly why I know so much about so many different neighborhoods. Women.
- [33:35]
B
Yeah.
- [33:36]
A
I would go to any neighborhood. If you look good and you were into me, I would meet you wherever. Local hookup. So wherever I met you, hun, I would go to. You could be fucking Jersey or wherever.
- [33:46]
B
Staten Island.
- [33:47]
A
I went to Staten island when I got a car though. When I got a car. I wasn't taking no train.
- [33:51]
B
Yeah, I gotta take a boat.
- [33:52]
A
The longest I ever went to go see a chick and it was before I drive was. And I didn't know that the LIRR had multiple lines. I thought it was just one line to go to Long Island. I went to see a chick in Freeport when I was like 15.
- [34:05]
B
How far is that?
- [34:06]
A
Fucking far as hell. And I took the train out there and you had to take two trains so I had to transfer. I didn't know. I got totally lost at that time. Freeport was infested with Ms. 13. Infested. The girls picked me up from the train station. She's these two hot Dominican chicks or whatever. I met them at the parade. So, you know, I knew what they looked like in person. They were smoking.
- [34:27]
B
That sounds like a setup, bro.
- [34:28]
A
Nah, I didn't give a shit. I didn't even care. I didn't even care I was going.
- [34:32]
B
You would die for it.
- [34:33]
A
That would have been a good fucking story to die from. Like how'd he die. Oh, he met these two smoking hot chicks. So I get there and the girl's bleeding on the back of her ankle. So I was like, you bleeding? She's like, oh, son of a bitch. They were throwing bottles at me. I was like, throwing bottles at you? Who? She's like, the Mara. I was like, the Mara Salvatruch, the Ms. 13. She's like, yeah, there's a bunch of them we gotta walk past. I'm like, oh, God. I'm like 15 years old, bro. So luckily, or whatever, they like, at one side of that, they lived in this big white building in Freeport. I don't know if you're from Freeport, you know what building I'm talking about. So back in the day, it was rough, bro. It was like. I don't know, that side or whatever you think. At that time, I thought Long island was nice, you know, like suburb and palm trees. I didn't know that there was hoods out there. So, like, when I got off, I was by like this fire station and I went down this block and it reminded me of dirty south, bro. Tons of guys hanging out on their corner. The fucking street sides are bent like this. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna get murdered here. I'm like, I'm dead. I walked through. Nobody really mess with me. And as soon I'm with these two smoking hot girls, I'm young as hell. I'm walking through the. I get through all these guys, right? So I get to, like the corner of the building and she. And they're like, run. And I'm like, what? I want to be a pussy, you know? Lord of the jungle. You don't run. You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna be prey. So I'm like, they're running, and you see the MS.13 or whatever right there. So I'm like, oh, my God. So I'm like, just speed walk. As soon as I hit that corner, I could have won America, bro. I tell you right now, no, Usain Bolt, you couldn't even beat me, bro. I fucking hit that door so fat. As soon as I turn that car, I got right into the door. You can hear bom bom, bom, bom banging on the door, coming after me or whatever. I was like, oh, I'm stuck here. I'm stuck. Oh, long story. I know.
- [36:11]
B
So that's a good place to be stuck, though, on the inside.
- [36:15]
A
It's a nice night, you know. It's a nice.
- [36:17]
B
Worth it.
- [36:17]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, nice.
- [36:20]
B
And then Going home was chill.
- [36:21]
A
I went, I left in a taxi. I waited till like 5, 6 in the morning when everybody was done, paid.
- [36:25]
B
200 bucks and got the out.
- [36:26]
A
At that time it was 75 bucks.
- [36:28]
B
Okay?
- [36:28]
A
I wanted 75 for a 15 year old.
- [36:30]
B
That's all your bus boy money.
- [36:31]
A
That was a lot of money, bro. Bro. I maybe had $78 cash. So it was like, I just got the guy, like, to the thing. I was like, ah, yeah.
- [36:38]
B
Oh, that's wild.
- [36:39]
A
But so you would think growing up around mob guys and stuff like that and being in the street, whatever, as a kid, you wouldn't see stuff like that outside Long island, but it exists, you know. But like I said, growing up, I kind of dipped and dabbled in the street. But, you know, I didn't. I knew that there was also lines that I wouldn't cross. So, like at these card games or whatever, you know, there was also, you network, you talk, you know, what are you into? What do you like to do? This guy's doing this. Or you hear some guy talking about a business thing and you might want to get involved, you know, some of them are semi illegal maybe, you know, so that's how you kind of make connections. And I think the way, you know, I always keep my mouth shut, you know, I don't really like to tell people's business and go and be like, oh, this guy's got this big warehouse full of shit. Whatever, this and that, whatever. It's like, I wouldn't do that. You know what I mean? So it was like, I kind of gained a lot of respect with those guys as well.
- [37:27]
B
You also had good role models. Like, your dad was like, look, you can be around it, but don't be in it. And so you were able to be like, okay, I can be around, I can dabble, I can have my fun, but I'm not going to get, you know, fucked up.
- [37:37]
A
That's exactly right.
- [37:38]
B
Yeah, that's. That's smart. Can you explain dice? Like, I'm not from New York, so I like, see guys on the corner, like, rolling dice.
- [37:44]
A
Like, dice?
- [37:45]
B
Yeah. Like, how do you play?
- [37:47]
A
You'll get three. You'll get three dice, right? And the, you'll roll the two dice. Okay? The, the ceelo is his own game. So it's like, it's the three dice game. 1, 2, 3 is automatic loss. 4, 5, 6 is an automatic win. You have something called trips where three numbers come out the same, depending if they're one to six, the highest triple win. And then you have Points. So in order to score a point, let's say you roll Snake eyes, which is one and one and then a five. The third dice is your point. That's how you play. So right now, I got a five, you roll deuces two, two, and a four.
- [38:20]
B
I won because you had the higher point.
- [38:23]
A
But if you got a 4, 5, 6, you don't even wait for me to roll. You just take it. You get a 1, 2, 3. Automatically lose. You just take it. Thousands of dollars can change fast, so really change hands so fast.
- [38:32]
B
Because you normally see them on the corner. They'll be throwing down, like, you know, ones. Maybe.
- [38:35]
A
Those guys, I think, play craps.
- [38:37]
B
Oh, really?
- [38:37]
A
Yeah, I think those are crap. If they throw them one or two dice, that's craps.
- [38:41]
B
Gotcha. But those play on the corner.
- [38:43]
A
Yeah, you will play it on the corner. You use the backdrop as the felt. I don't know how they do the point system. I don't like in Bronx Tale or whatever, you know, and he's like, I don't want him touching looking at my dice or whatever, you know? Like, I don't know how they set the points like that. The street dice games, but there's. There's ways to play street craps.
- [38:59]
B
If you say three dice that three days, that's called. Yeah, that's Cee Lo.
- [39:03]
A
Yeah.
- [39:04]
B
And you make some money playing Cee Lo.
- [39:05]
A
That was big bro. And if you were the bank, there's guys that used to be the bank. You used to just bet with him, you know, like, all right, I'm the bank, or whatever. You're all betting against me, the bank. You have to have money to be a bankers. You have to cover everybody's bets. But the banker there with all the money or whatever, you know, and all he was doing was just. He's literally playing five different guys. They're all just betting against him because it's his game.
- [39:23]
B
And how does that guy protect himself?
- [39:25]
A
It's his game, but he's walking around.
- [39:26]
B
With all his cash on the corner somewhere like he's good.
- [39:29]
A
You answer your own question. Come on. How do you protect yourself in New York City? Come on. If you were in that game, if you were in that life, you. You're strapped. I don't know many guys. Didn't that rapper get killed.
- [39:41]
B
In the city?
- [39:43]
A
Not offset the other one over a dice game?
- [39:46]
B
Take off, right? Yeah.
- [39:48]
A
Everybody has guns. When you gamble, if you street gamble, you gotta have a gun or you gotta have something to enforce that that money's yours. And that nobody's taking it. Because there could be a guy that just walks up on the game and take. What are you gonna do? A big guy, like a depot, comes over, whatever, and takes your stuff or whatever. What are you gonna do?
- [40:05]
B
Even as a player?
- [40:06]
A
Yeah, even as a player. People, you know, how many people get jacked from leaving the dice game as a winner? A lot.
- [40:12]
B
Wow.
- [40:13]
A
There's an episode in the Wire. You talk about that. Remember the kids? You never saw it. I'm leaving. There's an episode. He's two little kids. They, like, do probability. So they go on the street corner in Baltimore and test it out, whatever. And they're asking one of the guys, he's like, you're not gonna rob us? He's like, you made me so much money, I'm not gonna rob you. He's like. But they needed him to walk him off.
- [40:34]
B
Oh, wow.
- [40:34]
A
Cause that's how you get hurt. There's a lot of guys have been shot and killed over dice games.
- [40:38]
B
Oh, that's crazy. I mean, that's insane. And so these guys, they would just run these games. What about, like, numbers games? How do those work?
- [40:45]
A
What do you mean by numbers games? Like, the numbers. When somebody says they take numbers.
- [40:49]
B
Yeah, you hear that? There's, like a woman in the community.
- [40:51]
A
It's like the lottery.
- [40:52]
B
And so literally, she was running a little lottery.
- [40:54]
A
Pretty much the same thing. It depends because Cubans have their own thing, the bolita system. I think the Dominicans now are doing that as well. Like all the. All the barbershops or whatever are all Dominican owned. A lot of them, whatever. And they do things computer now. You know, I've bet myself. I'll be honest. Whatever. I've gone in there. Whatever. You don't have to pay taxes. Oh, shit. Tax evasion. But it's like, you know, it's like they got a computer system. They're right there. They take cash, you're good to go. How would they do it back in the day without the bolitas or whatever? They'd have the actual thing, or it would be the. The numbers from the horse races. Whatever the take was in at the horse races, the last three numbers, that's what people would play. So when the paper would come out and they'd take the tally at whatever Aqueduct took in for the day, whatever the money was, the last three digits, that's what the number was. So they would take bets off of that.
- [41:41]
B
You ever played Domino's?
- [41:43]
A
Yeah, but I'm not that good at it.
- [41:45]
B
No.
- [41:45]
A
Yeah. I don't have the patience for. Domino's is a game, I guess you just chill to and get drunk.
- [41:51]
B
That's not like a money game.
- [41:52]
A
It is. I see people play domino's for money. Sure.
- [41:55]
B
Gotcha.
- [41:55]
A
Yeah, they have domino tournaments and all that kind of stuff.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah, I mean, I see them, like, even on the corner here, you'll see him playing domino on the south side.
- [42:01]
A
Over here, you'll still see a lot of the guys playing dominoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The old school Puerto Rican dudes still chilling over there. Those guys lasted, man. Because I tell you, man, this neighborhood was terrible. Although it had a huge mob influence. Like, if anybody asks you about the Green Point Williamsburg section, there's many famous mobsters that have come out of this area. I mean, you had Sonny Francis, who. His son, Michael Francis, has got the big podcast in the mob genre. He was from Greenpoint neighborhood. Jimmy Knapp, who was one of the biggest bookmakers in the whole country. You know, he was with the west side. I mean, the list just goes on and on of how many wise guys and how this place was. You know, it's. It's maybe still got some of the remnants, but, you know, when you walk outside me and you weren't ducking shots on Havemeyer Avenue, you know, my father. I got two very distinct memories of viol growing up. Not violence. One violence and one. I guess I don't know what you would call it, New York City, the way it was back then. Let's. Let's just call it that. Whatever, right? Things that were normal back then that we really wouldn't consider normal now. So it happened to be in the. Both neighborhoods. One where I'm front and flushing and one over here. There's two times I was in the car with my father. So the first time, whatever, there was a mob connected pizzeria. And it was. It was right in my neighborhood, that guy. Actually, I'll tell you a story about it later, but. So there was a high school with all these young kids or whatever. Always used to cause problems, whatever. We would have neighborhood fights with them later on. But this was a little bit before. I was still young. And I don't know what they did in the pizzeria, these two kids or whatever. And there was fucking knife fight, right? I was in the car. I must have been like seven. And my father. Yeah, I was young, and my dad was like, look, look, they got knives. And it came out. And the guy was a pizzeria guy. You know, he had, like, apron or whatever. You Know, and he had, like, a thing and the kid had a knife, and they were having, like, a knife fight. Yeah. That was a mob connected pizzeria.
- [44:01]
B
Oh, wow.
- [44:01]
A
And another time here in this neighborhood, driving down on Kent Avenue, I was like, dad, what are these girls? Look, they got, like their bathing suits and everything. Not thinking. It was all prostitutes. All prostitutes. So much ass and tits everywhere, bro. This is what Kent Avenue was. Bikers, dead bodies and prostitutes. He told me, my father, this little strip over here by Havemeyer and South first, you wouldn't even want to drive down. That's how bad it was really. They would hop in front of your car was bad. Really bad. Forget about walking. Forget about walking.
- [44:39]
B
Wow.
- [44:40]
A
Yeah. It was that bad. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that Williamsburg was one of the most dangerous places in New York City, may possibly the country at one point.
- [44:51]
B
That is crazy.
- [44:52]
A
All you saw infested with. That's all you heard. Infested with mobsters, bikers and prostitutes and dead bodies. Because that old Kent Avenue and stuff was underdeveloped. I saw that development happening little by little.
- [45:04]
B
And so what happened? Like, artists came in and they kind of like got studio space and kind of like turned into a little art district. There was like some graffiti kind of thing, like art graffiti and stuff.
- [45:14]
A
So when I was hopping around this neighborhood and a couple other neighborhoods, I would work in these mob connected areas as well. And I saw the influx coming in, and I would listen to the conversations and the two people. Usually that's why I made a lot of connections, too. Because the two people that know the most about you are usually what, Your hairdresser and your bartender. You tell them everything and maybe you're a coward, you know what I mean? So it's like those people saw. People would spill their guts to me and I.
- [45:39]
B
As a bartender.
- [45:40]
A
As a bartender, right. So I. After busboy, I worked my way up. Maybe left that out of the story. But now I was hopping around. Now I wasn't only under my uncle, now I was making my own connection and going to the other spot, like I said, Rockies. And all these other people, like, yeah, they knew I was. But I was doing my own thing now. I was hopping I was bartending at a spot in Hell's Kitchen, which was the old Westies neighborhood or whatever. Right. Right next to a spot called Mickey Spillanes, who was the Irish Westies mob boss or whatever, you know. So it was like a lot of history or whatever of all that. I'm working as a bartender and there was a lot of influx of. We call them yuppies, hipsters, you know.
- [46:16]
B
Like people like me. You can just say.
- [46:19]
A
I mean, you're not too bad. You're late, bro. You're a laggard in this whole thing. These motherfuckers with trailblazers. So what is it? They're the hipsters, you're the yuppie? Is that what it is?
- [46:27]
B
Those are my OGs, the hipster mob boss.
- [46:31]
A
So there was a couple, and you would. They would throw parties, you know, and that's what I love to do most. I would love to do the catering. Bartender. It was just way better for me. I didn't have to sit there and count money and all that stuff. People just throw you tips, cash stuff. So there was a lot of artists, like you said, and the film industry. That's what started to bring things over here. Restaurant film and artists. Because. No, the artists come and the restaurant film follows. That's what I think. There was always a lot of good, solid restaurants here, but you really saw all these little boutique things pop up. And who loves these boutique fucking things? Yo, yo, people, listen, I like it too. Don't get me wrong. It was good. Nice to see some of these spots, you know, Like, I saw them coming in. Like, I was a little weird. It's not really for this neighbor, but yeah, I'll try it out. Whatever, you know, Like, I don't know, just. Just a barbecue joint in general. Like, we didn't have, like, Texas barbecue here, you know? And I'm not talking about, like, Texas Road. I'm not, like, legit barbecue spot.
- [47:27]
B
Another spot in the corner, whatever, is still here.
- [47:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, they were good, man. They. When they first came, they were one of the only ones. Like, a lot of these restaurants you've seen, they were established in, like, 2010 or 11. I've been to all of them. Every single one in Williamsburg. I've visited them all. My spot is my stomping ground.
- [47:42]
B
Wow.
- [47:42]
A
Yeah.
- [47:43]
B
Were there ever any, like, fights at these, like. Like, connected things you had to do? Like, as a bartender, you have to get, like, active.
- [47:52]
A
I never had to put my hands on anyone, that's for sure. But they had. I've had to break up fights, you know, or lay down the law, you know, like smack your hand on the bar or whatever, to try to, like, calm situations down, you know? I think that prepped me as well, you know, for going into law enforcement, because I've seen a lot of, like, that or whatever, like, rowdiness, you Know, And I knew how to deal with drunk people, you know what I mean? I know how, you know, to deal with them. You know, I got a fucking Mexican father, an Irish uncle, you know what I mean? I'm very skilled in dealing with. I know how to maneuver around drunk people. And I myself used to partake a lot in the alcohol. So it's like, you know, I understood them, you know, I mean, like, some drunk people just want their way sometimes, you know, and sometimes you can't give them your way. But you sell them the facade that they get their way, and that ends a lot of fights. So I think that's what I would do. I would go the diplomatic approach. Sometimes you can't. It was one time, union guy and bikers fucking started fighting each other. Like in the parking lot. Yeah, just straight up fucking. I don't know what happened. He must have said something to one of the guys, wife, whatever. These guys were in their colors. They were at a party on one side and the other guys were like, in suit. Union guys. It was a fucking battle.
- [49:07]
B
That's crazy.
- [49:07]
A
Battle.
- [49:08]
B
And you just lock the door and watch out the window.
- [49:10]
A
I'm just watching. Lock the door and I'm just watching, like, what the hell? The one, the good thing, a lot of the times when you're in a joint that's popular or something like that is the cops come like this, you know, so that makes sense. I never really had to break up any kind of, like, brawls or anything like that. And I wasn't a bodyguard, so if I saw a brawl, I just let it go on until, you know, until the proper authorities come and address it.
- [49:35]
B
That makes sense.
- [49:36]
A
That could have been, you know, the fucking guy that's loading the seafood or whatever. He's a big dude. He could have did.
- [49:40]
B
Yeah. Now, you had mentioned a little bit before, like, there's a biker gang presence in New York City. Like, you kind of hear about it back in the day. You don't really think of New York City as like a biker spot. Like, in my opinion. I don't know. I think about, like, west coast, like, biker gangs when I think of, you know, like, bikers and shit. But you said that you had seen that a little bit in New York.
- [49:56]
A
Can you.
- [49:56]
B
Can you explain, like, oh, yeah. What that is? Like, who's involved, what kind of hustles they would run.
- [50:00]
A
I've seen. I think all the major players have a clubhouse here in New York City.
- [50:04]
B
Oh, really?
- [50:05]
A
Pretty sure. I know the Pagans have one, the Angels have one. Now, I was surprised to see this because going back to west coast or whatever, you know, the Mongols and the Hells Angels, they like, got this bit of rivalry. I saw a bunch of Mongols hanging out in Astoria just like two years ago in front of bas, like that Colombian restaurant lined up. When the hell did you ever see Mongols on the East Coast? Yeah.
- [50:26]
B
That's interesting.
- [50:27]
A
So I'll tell you why if you want to know. So I have a friend of mine who is a. I call him a drug detective. You know, I don't want to give his exact title. So he said that the Hell's Angels have dominated the east coast for so long, but they want the Mongols drug connections, so they let them start coming into the territories East.
- [50:51]
B
Oh, wow.
- [50:52]
A
Because they're all the Mongols. A lot of them are Mexican, so they got direct lines to cartels. So they. I think the Angels kind of saw the writing on the wall. This is my opinion, but they saw the writing on the wall is if, like, whoever controls the drugs controls the streets, and if they control the fuck, you know what I mean? They're gonna buy more power, influence, guns, whatever else, and we're gonna get knocked out.
- [51:11]
B
So they kinda like made the pieces on this side. They kind of got to squash it a little bit.
- [51:14]
A
I think, though, like, these biker guys, though, they are the organized crime of today, for the most part. You know, I think a lot of them, like the Hell's Angels, it's weird. Like, you know, they. They're branded. Like, they'll actually take you to trademark court if you use their stuff.
- [51:28]
B
Really?
- [51:28]
A
Yeah.
- [51:29]
B
Oh, wow.
- [51:29]
A
You know that?
- [51:30]
B
I had no idea.
- [51:31]
A
Yeah, they're like legit gangsters, I guess you would say.
- [51:34]
B
Like, running, like, a business.
- [51:35]
A
It's a business. It's. It's actually trademarked and everything. The Hell's Angels, so it's like they have this reputation of being these outlaws or whatever, but they look pretty legitimate to me. And, you know, they do outlaw shit, so.
- [51:48]
B
Wow. Now, do you think there's any more of, like, the five families that we always hear about, Right? Like the Cosa Nostra or whatever? Like, does that still exist in New York City at its present?
- [51:58]
A
I think so, thousand percent.
- [52:00]
B
And in what way? Like, how could it exist? Like, do they still, like, gambling is now federally, I mean, state legalized? You know, weed is legalized. Like, drugs are kind of decriminalized. Like, I don't know if they're doing, like, extortion rackets or if they ever did do that. Like, what is the money Making operation now.
- [52:18]
A
So I think now, as far as you have to think about this generationally, all the crimes that you have just listed are more crimes that you do when you're trying to come on the come up. Like the drugs and all that stuff, you know, like the petty crime, trying to get it all up. Most of the mobsters now, they're not in street scrapping. They come from neighborhoods like Howard beach or whatever. Generations get watered down, and it's generational crime money, but it's still generational money. So you don't really have to do those things that you did before. So that kind of falls into the hands of other organized crime groups that are very hungry. The Albanians, Dominicans, the Serbians, the Jamaicans, Guyanese, whatever. So the traditional mob rackets like extortion and loan sharking and bookmaking, I don't really think they'll ever go away because when you go to the bank, you got to do a credit check, you got to do this, you got to do that or whatever, you know, nobody's gonna want to do that. And when you borrow, or let's say when you bet with, I don't know what you bet with. Mgm, Caesars, whatever you bet with or whatever, you gotta have that money up front. It's gonna go on your taxes, this and that. A wise guy's not gonna ask you for a 1099.
- [53:27]
B
Interesting.
- [53:27]
A
You know what I mean? And loan shawkin. You know, some people just. You might have a lot of money and just you got shit credit, might not qualify for a loan or whatever, and you need then, you know, somebody with some money. But as far as the generations being watered down from the crime, I think they just gotten a little bit more sophisticated. Construction. The mob is heavy in construction. Everybody knows that. There's unions, you know, things like that. Do they still control the importation of drugs? I mean, maybe to. To a point, but I think that's more concentrated on the Italian side, you know, like, not American Italian Mafia. More like mafia from Italy. And they have no rules. They do whatever. They blow up politicians and all that stuff over there. Yeah, they don't play no games. So, I mean, the traditional rackets as far as that, and a lot of them have been sophisticated now where they get into a lot of white collar crimes, you know, like stock a lot of pumping dumps. That's huge. You hear a lot of guys talking about that.
- [54:19]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [54:20]
A
Yeah, that they get into. They set up these phony companies and. And all that kind of stuff.
- [54:25]
B
Interesting. Yeah, I'm always so curious about that, like, how it manifests now. You know what I mean? Like, was the extortion racket thing ever a thing that the five families would do in the city? Like, go to a business, be like, hey, you need protection. Da, da, da. You see it in movies.
- [54:38]
A
But if I told you today that every single business pays an extortion, would you believe me?
- [54:47]
B
No.
- [54:48]
A
Okay, so I'm going to explain something to you. The mob, like I said, got sophisticated. They're no longer going to send someone to. And I've never said this on camera, and I wasn't going to say it, but I'm going to. They've never. They don't need to hire someone to break your windows anymore and say, shit, you know, you get your windows broken, don't worry, I'll take care of it. You give me $100, I'll make sure nobody touches your spot. They're not coming to you like that no more. They're coming to you with legitimate companies, community associations, you name it, whatever. You know, that a business improvement district, whatever it is that they'll come with or whatever, under the guise of, you pay us 1000 bucks a year and you're a part of us, you're a part of the association. Where's my money going to?
- [55:37]
B
What?
- [55:37]
A
What am I getting for that? What? For what? Just to be a part of it, you know? The mob has legitimized itself in a way, to do illegitimate shit. You know, it's. It's nothing else. The same old thing they've been doing. It's just like a loophole, I guess. You know what I mean?
- [55:51]
B
Yeah.
- [55:52]
A
Think about it. Why. Why would you send some kid to break somebody's windows and the guy gotta get paused and then they maybe start to investigate and this and that. Whatever. No, why don't you just set up a company or whatever that's like a neighborhood watch and now. Whatever. Like, every business pays. So you don't want to be ostracized, so you'll pay, too. And it's like, okay, you know, make sure your garbage gets picked up on time. The oil guys come, all this stuff. What do you call that, friendly exhaustion or what? You got to pay the fucking thing no matter what. And sometimes you don't even. It's already in the lease.
- [56:18]
B
Oh, wow.
- [56:19]
A
Yeah, they go to the landlord first.
- [56:23]
B
Because he doesn't want his shit fucked up.
- [56:24]
A
There you go.
- [56:25]
B
So what happens if you're like, nah, I'm good. I don't want to join. I don't I don't think it's worth it.
- [56:29]
A
I don't know. You'll have to find that out. I don't know. I can't answer that.
- [56:32]
B
Fuck.
- [56:33]
A
Yeah. Oh. That's why different things happen. I mean, they're not killing people anymore.
- [56:37]
B
But they got other ways of getting their gap back.
- [56:40]
A
They're not killing people anymore or whatever. But you could get hurt or you could get financed. If they use those same tactics that they used back in the day where you're like, oh, the mob's gonna break your legs. It's like, well, they'll cripple you financially somehow or something.
- [56:54]
B
Or they got money for lawyers and they got all the legal. They know the legal loopholes better than anyone.
- [56:59]
A
Right?
- [56:59]
B
What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I want to help you make sports more fun. That's right. If you like watching sports, there's a way to make it 10 times more fun, and that is with Prize Pick. Prize Picks is the largest independently owned daily fantasy sports platform in North America. It's absolutely super fun and super easy to play. All you gotta do is pick two to six player stats and hit more or less, and you can watch the winnings roll in. And to be honest with you, I've. I'm pretty good. I've been winning some money, but I've. I've lost more. I'll be honest. I'm bleeding money right now. I'm terrible at this game. I know nothing about sports. I'm awful. I always click more or less on the wrong things. So whatever I do do the exact opposite of. Apparently people are winning money on this. There are some people that are making, you know, they turn $10 into $1,000 in just a few taps. Not me. Maybe you. Maybe you can figure it out. I don't know how to do it. So let's look at the picks from this week, shall we? All right, guys, Thursday, December 12th. Let's check out what we got going on. Thursday night football. Rams versus the 49ers. Yeah. Matt Stafford. I'm going more. I don't know who Matt Stafford is. I don't know what team he plays for. I'm going to be honest, Christos just put this in my hand and he knows a lot about football. George Kittle. I'm saying more. I know that guy. He's tall. Brock Purdy. I'm going to go less. You know what? I'm going more, actually on Brock Purdy. You want to know why?
- [58:19]
A
Yep.
- [58:20]
B
We're not going to do that. Christos. I hope you guys didn't hear that. Anyway, guys, if you want to play prize picks, go to the App store, download the Prizepix app on your mobile device, use the promo code Camp C A M P. And with your first $5 lineup, you will get 50 instantly deposited into your account that you are able to play with. That's right. I. Although here I am giving the good people some funds to play with, so you're welcome. Let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you about an amazing service known as BlueChew. That's right. BlueChew is a service that basically delivers this chewable tablet to your door whenever you want, once a week, once a month. I don't even know if they could do it that frequently, but they'll send it right to your door. You don't have to go to the doctor and have some awkward conversation with some guy in a lab coat. Some dude that's judging you, probably, if I had to guess, with bluechew, it's super discreet. The packaging is discreet. It's just a couple questions on their website. And they will send you chewable tablets that have basically the same active ingredients as like a Viagra or a Cialis, but at the fraction of the cost and in a chewable form. It's great. It truly is. I mean, one time I was in the woods and we were cold and everyone. It was raining and I. I pitched a tent with the help of Blue Chew. And everyone gathered under it and we were safe. And it saved me and a lot of. A lot of lonely people. So if you're interested in bluechew, here's how you get it. You're going to go to bluechew.com and use the promo code Gagnon. That's right. G A G, N O N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code. I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're going to receive your first month for free. That's right. Bluechew.com use the promo code Gagnon. Check it out. Bluechew. Let's get back to the show. What about sanitation? You always hear about that, like, you know, being mobbed up. Is it still that way in New York City?
- [60:03]
A
I don't know if it's completely mobbed up now. I know at one point it was, of course, but I mean, how can you really judge it? I mean, like, what Are you gonna say, like, every guy who owns a garbage truck with an Italian name, you're gonna just assume, you know, it's like everything else. Is there organized crime involved in the carting industry? Yes. Now, is it just the mob? No. Like I said, a lot of the rackets that they gave up gave way to these other criminal organizations to kind of rise the prominence. The Albanians, the Serbians, the Dominicans, they're huge. I mean, Dominican control all the Washington Heights and the Bronx as far as businesses, the gambling, the drugs, they're huge. The Russians control a lot of Brooklyn. You know, the Albanians, they got spots in Queens. They got spots in the Bronx. I mean, you heard the stories about the quote, unquote, six family, the Rudi organization, the Albanian mob that took on the Italians back in the early 2000, late 90s, early 2000s.
- [60:57]
B
Wow.
- [60:58]
A
They went to war. They went into certain spots in Queens, in Astorias, a spot called Soccer Fever. It's a very well known story. The guy goes in there, whatever, and fucking pistol whips the guy or whatever, and he's like, this is my spot now. Took the game. Robbed the game. It's a known Lucchese gambling spot. Albanians went in there, took it over. And in the Bronx or whatever they took. One of the guys was a Gambino, I think, or his name was Gambino, but he was definitely connected. He might have been a Lucchese guy, I'm not sure. But they beat the shit out of him and took his wallet, whatever, left him in the underwear, in the street, whatever, and put the locks on his coffee shop and said, this is ours now.
- [61:33]
B
Whoa.
- [61:34]
A
If you look at most of the Little Italy section in the Bronx, it's all Albanian. They've completely taken over. So, I mean, that's where I think that when you were telling me, when you were asking me before, does the mob still control this? Yeah, a mob still controls it, but it's not the Italians anymore.
- [61:51]
B
That is fascinating now. You know a lot about, like, Sinatra and, like, his mob connections. I watched that episode that you did, like that one.
- [61:59]
A
That was, like, my most successful video. Not a lot of people know about that story.
- [62:02]
B
It's wild. So, like, I knew a little bit. I actually had a guy on the show recently that. His name is Thomas Mayor Major. I don't know exactly pronounced the last name, but he's a journalist that covered the story of when the CIA sort of worked with Giancana and Roselli to try to take down Castro.
- [62:17]
A
Right.
- [62:18]
B
And it's the most insane story but part of the story is that Giancana was tight with Sinatra. And obviously Sinatra performing and all these mob spots, and as a singer, you gotta work in lounges and nightclubs, and all of those, especially back in that time, were all mobbed up. So you got to be tight with these guys. And they apparently, according to the story, again, I don't know if this is necessarily true, Giancana had tried to introduce Kennedy to a woman named Judith Campbell. Judith Campbell was like a starlet back in the day, and he was kind of dating Judy Campbell. And basically he used his connection to Sinatra to introduce Judy Campbell to President JFK to try to get like, a little, you know, blackmail little. A shared relationship, so to speak, that if that went public, could become very detrimental to his political career. So Sinatra was part of the whole ring that made that happen. And so that was the first time I'd ever heard, like, oh, shit. Sinatra was like, you know, deep with these guys.
- [63:14]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [63:14]
B
But you have some stories that are, like, pretty crazy that Sinatra had even deeper ties. Could you share it? Could you share that one?
- [63:21]
A
Sure, sure. So Sinatra career basically was backed by the mob. I mean, everybody knows you had mentioned Sam Giancana or whatever. Judy Campbell wasn't the only connection. You missed the most famous one, Marilyn Monroe, right? That was his gumada, whatever. That was like his girlfriend or whatever, but she was also banging the President. So you don't think that a little pillow talk or whatever, that she maybe had mentioned something or maybe she played both sides. Who knows? So there's a lot of rumors that the mob had her killed. Who knows? Maybe she outstayed her welcome. But. But Frank Sinatra was like the male version of that, you know what I mean? Delivering messages between families or whatever. Obviously, he's a young Italian singer. Whatever. A lot of people loved him. His good looks and his guinea charm, you know, like they say. So, you know, he was very popular. You know, so they needed a star attraction. They talk about this in the Godfather. They think like, oh, he'll be this great star attraction or whatever. So Sinatra, he's. He's got friends all over the place at this point. But his rise to power was kind of facilitated by the Faschetti brothers. They were brothers connected to the Chicago outfit. So through there or whatever was where I think he kind of got his rise to stardom and then his Vegas and all the movies that started coming after. The problem with Sinatra, although he was around guys like, he was performing at the something premiere theater that used to be Greg DePalma's spot. Somebody will look it up. I forgot the name. Hollywood premiere or maybe something like that was in Long island whatever whatever. Greg DePalma was also very close with Sinatra. He's the guy that got caught up in the recent bus. Like. Well, I say recent, 20 years ago was the Jack Garcia, the big fat guy that went undercover. I was telling you what to do to his life or whatever. So, you know, that guy was around Sinatra. And if you look at all the pictures that I had put actually on that video, a lot of people haven't seen him. Sinatra's pictured with Michael Spilotro, who was Tony Spilotro's brother, who, if you've seen the movie Casino, Joe Pesci played him. He ran Las Vegas. Sinatra's in a picture with him. He's got a picture with the Fischetti brothers. He's got a. There's so many pictures of Sinatra's with mobsters. There's one famous picture when he's with Carlo Gambino and Greg De Palma and all these really big wigs in the Mafia. So he kind of was under the. I don't know if you would consider him an associate who's definitely connected, but it all went to his head. So one day in. I want to say, he also was a part owner in the Cal Neva, that was the casino right on the border of California and Nevada that he was partnered with, supposedly with Sam Giancana. That was one of Frank Sinatra's places. So Sinatra had this aura about him. Listen, if you're connected to that many guys or whatever, you yourself, I guess, start to believe that you are a mafioso. You know what I mean? Like, you deserve the same respect that they do. So like I was saying before, it's not only the Italian mafia, it was the Jewish mafia, the Irish or whatever. So it was a really prominent Jewish gangster at the time who was also from the Mayfield role mob gang. Carl Cohen, he was like the manager. So something happened with Sinatra. He was being a diva and I heard he was terrible. If you read his book My Way by Paul Anka and then His Way by Kitty Kelly. Kitty Kettle or Kitty Kelly, I think her name is. They talk about how bad Sinatra was when he drank. He just had that aura. He thought he was a God. He had that God like feeling. I can get away with whatever I want. Until one night when he's in the coffee shop at the Dozen Inn and he runs into this Carl Cohen, who's a Jewish mob that connected to the whole syndicate. The Mario Lansky, that whole thing back in the day. And he thinks that he can talk to Carl Cohen and eventually throws coffee on Cohen. Cohen stands up, knocks Sinatra's teeth out. And Cohen had a reputation for this because he knocked out the El Rancho's teeth. Owner. The owner of the El Rancho. He knocked out his. He knocked him down or something like that, too. Belden Kettleman, there's a story about that. So Cohen's no slouch. Cohen's a real mobster. But now you're hitting a guy like Frank. This could be a problem for a lot of people. Frank puts a lot of money, a lot of people's pockets, very connected. Cohen did what he had to do. It's a huge sit down about it. Sinatra wanted Cohen dead. He wanted to kill him. He went to people, try to put a contract on Cohen. The mob told Sinatra, basically, nothing's going to happen to Cohen. Behave yourself. You can be connected to these guys, but you can't put your hands on them. You can't do anything. That totally passed everything. So that, in its own sense, shows how much of a gangster Sinatra was. He just was playing. He was just connected. When he read, when he actually went up against a real mobster, he was told. They told him, don't ever go near him again. Don't ever go near a car cone again. And from that night on, Sinatra didn't perform in deserting anymore. He went across the street to the Sands. They bought the contract for 25 grand.
- [68:18]
B
Wow. And that's how the Sands Casino became what it was. Wow. That's crazy.
- [68:24]
A
Yep.
- [68:24]
B
Do you think that happens? Like, has that happened since, like, Sinatra was such a big star? Like, it'd be the equivalent of, like, Taylor Swift, like, being. You know, it's like he was massive at the time, specifically in that community, you know, being an Italian dude from.
- [68:37]
A
Jersey, Martin in a Rat Pack, and Sammy Davis Jr. I mean, they were trained. The one thing I got to say about Sinatra, he was a pioneer for civil rights. Like, there's a couple stories that I talked to about people in Las Vegas, like, when it was like, all whites and all black culture.
- [68:49]
B
Sammy's coming.
- [68:49]
A
He's like, sammy's with me or I'm not going in. That was. That was stand up.
- [68:52]
B
Yeah, it's dope. But the fact that that could happen where he's, like, so interconnected with the mob is pretty wild. Do you think that has happened since, like, through, like, the 80s and 90s? Like, oh, yeah.
- [69:04]
A
I mean, look at all these guys that are Coming out now on YouTube, telling their stories. Like Dom Sicali, Mikey Scars and Sammy the Bull. And Michael Francis even says it himself. They own Roulette Records. That was. I forgot the Jewish guy's name, whatever that. God. But Corky Vestola, whatever. He was a main member in the Decalcantis or whatever. You know, he was. That was actually the family that Virgil was made in. We'll go back to talking about that. They were out in Jersey. They were like, kind of the basis for the Sopranos. A little bit like that. And he owned Morris Levy. He owned Roulette Records with Morris Levy. Morris Levy was a front boss for Roulette Records. Who Sonny Francis, his father had a piece of. They all had pieces of. So you're telling me that those artists. And this is after Sinatra, right? This is. I guess they started in the doo wop, but now we're going. We're talking 70s, 80s. Sinatra is already probably old by then.
- [69:53]
B
Right.
- [69:54]
A
So it's like you're pushing. Sinatra was probably at his height in the 50s, 60s. So now you're talking 70s, 80s. You're talking a different group. All those guys that you see Rhodes, I don't know who was signed to Roulette Records, but if you look them up, I guarantee the mob had a hand in pushing them through.
- [70:08]
B
Wow.
- [70:09]
A
Yeah.
- [70:09]
B
I mean, that's like the Mob, it seems like they like to have sort of like, public figures associated with them.
- [70:17]
A
Right.
- [70:17]
B
You know what I mean? Like, not necessarily. Like.
- [70:19]
A
I think it's both ways, though.
- [70:21]
B
Yeah, of course. Right. Like, these, you know, big musicians, they like to have muscle like that, protection, like to have guys around them.
- [70:27]
A
Look at the guys. It transcends not only the Italians. Look at the. The black dudes, the rappers, you know, Suge Knight and all those guys in west coast or whatever. He was a gangster? No, he was a blood. They have all these bloods with him. The guys from New Orleans, Lil Wayne and all those guys, they're all gang members. You know, they always throw in some blood stuff or something.
- [70:43]
B
Yeah. So even if they're not in it, they're connected to it. And you kind of have to be.
- [70:47]
A
It seems like rappers, musicians, actors, superstars, they run in the same circles. Just like mobsters and cops in those neighborhoods. It's like. It's just where you hang out. It's just what it is.
- [70:56]
B
Yeah.
- [70:57]
A
So it's like you want to be around it or you just around it, and that's it.
- [71:00]
B
You know, I've heard this thing, like, whenever they make movies like, they make like, Sopranos or they make, like, you know, the Godfathers. They have to do almost do like, a street tax. Like, they have to, like, work kind of with the mob to, like, make these films and stuff like that. Do you know anything about, like, how that relationship works where you have, like, these Hollywood, you know, sort of like writers and directors and producers that live a very regular civil life, but then they also have to be in close contact with, you know, criminals and people that are involved in, like, real violence. Like, do you know how those relationships work, or have you heard stories about that?
- [71:28]
A
Well, it usually goes back to what I was telling you with the Patsy Conti story on how he's a known mobster who's on a fucking board of directors for a huge in national supermarket chain. You know what I mean? It's almost like you have to do business with them in a way, because they're. They're so entrenched. You know what I mean? So if you're not really used to it, I mean, I don't know if I'm getting your question fully, but if. If you know that they're already there, you're gonna have to do business with them anyway.
- [71:58]
B
I've heard you had to, like, pay them to, like, tell the story.
- [72:01]
A
I mean, doesn't that go more, like, around the unions? I would say, like, I don't know, like, you know, they control the unions, too. You know what I mean? So maybe if you don't pay them, they'll just tell the guys the stage hands or don't show off at work. No lighting or whatever. You know, I know that was happening during the Godfather when they were filming. They said that, you know, and even construction projects. And the mob's not immune from that either because, you know, Sammy the Bull was talking about this or whatever on his podcast. He said that in certain neighborhoods or whatever, when they used to build in these rough areas with the black and Spanish people, whatever that were there, whatever, they would go to just, like, the local guy. Instead of, like, somebody fucking up the job or stealing this and that, they would go to, like, the local gang leader, whoever controlled that neighborhood, and be like, we're going to pay you. Just make sure nobody loses the thing and forget it. That guy was so happy he was getting paid, he would really make sure that nobody was touching anything. Not only was it his neighborhood, but now he's got this responsibility on a big project. It just went through the roof.
- [72:53]
B
So that makes sense.
- [72:54]
A
Yeah.
- [72:54]
B
I didn't realize the mob. Do you think the mob still is controlling unions today in New York City?
- [72:59]
A
Yes. I don't know about controlling, but they have heavy influence.
- [73:02]
B
And how would that work? Like, I always figured the unions were like, I don't know, like, close with like the government. Like, I don't really know how the unions work, to be honest.
- [73:09]
A
I don't want to get into too many specifics, but there are a lot of organized. And it doesn't have to be Italian. Like I said, when we talk about organized crime today, I'm not really speaking about Italian for the most part. Like they. They're still around or whatever, and they're very powerful. Whatever. But there's so many groups that have come up that are so powerful and they are in legitimate. Like I said, you know, Dominicans, uptown, everybody knows or whatever that they. They control everything up there, from legitimate business to illegitimate business. Taxicab companies, restaurants. They call it the home of the Hays. When I was growing up, I mean, they're still selling the best weed up there, you know what I mean? It's a known spot to find drug connections, like big drug connections for whatever powders or whatever you're dealing with. So it's like these guys are around and it's just change faces, you know what I mean? It's not like they're going anywhere. They're still here. So as far as controlling unions, there's definitely still some influence, but they're not controlling it the way they did on the Jimmy Hoffa or anything like that.
- [74:04]
B
That makes sense. Now, as far as, like Giuliani's sort of like, you know, approach to the mob and like putting in all the RICO's and stuff like that? Does that still affect mobs today and like organized crime today in the same way that it did when they took down all the. All the guys, you know, when Giuliani was in charge?
- [74:19]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, a thousand percent, I think now. Whatever. I don't know if they're really building as many RICO's against the Italian mob or just organized crime in general. What you're seeing now or whatever is they're using that against a lot of the gang members, you know, like the young thug or whatever. You know, I'm not too familiar with the case, but I heard they're getting hit with rico. They don't look like the typical mobsters. I would look like that we would expect to be getting charged in rico, you know. So I think today, you know, between the five families and the other ethnic gangs that are coming in, like the Albanians and the Serbians and whatever else I mentioned. I think that they, you know, they've kind of set their foothold where they established themselves to where they really don't need to do anything. I don't want to say anything outlandish or whatever, but the influence is there and they aren't going anywhere. You know what I mean? It's kind of just molded. They're not killing people anymore, like you said, but they're still entrenched in pretty much every business.
- [75:15]
B
That makes a lot of sense. Now, you had mentioned this guy Virgil, right? Now, you had said he became made.
- [75:21]
A
So when we were talking about his French connection days.
- [75:24]
B
And again, could you just clarify Virgil's relationship with your uncle?
- [75:28]
A
Again, he's related to my uncle from their grandmothers or cousins or something like that. But it was first contact when he came over, you know what I mean? In that day, the 70s or whatever, if you weren't around a mobster or this and that, whatever, it was probably a tough life for you. Cause they controlled the city. You couldn't do anything. I think that's what the difference is. They had a complete graduate. Now the grass is loosened up, but it's kind of spread to other ethnic groups and other people. The Chinese, like I told you, whatever, they took over a lot of rackets as far as gambling. And they control all the pot that comes in. And then that's grown, you know what I mean, in the country. So it's like they're here, you know what I mean? They're still here. You know, they're organized crime and they're still here. So back to. You'd asked me the relationship or whatever.
- [76:16]
B
Yeah. And how Virgil got made and his whole come up.
- [76:19]
A
So, you know, he was actually a phone man. If you've ever seen the movie Goodfellas, remember when he's running around with the phone or whatever, you know, he was supposedly a phone man for Jigs Forlano, and he was one of the biggest bookmakers at the time. He was partnered with Ruby Stein, who was the biggest bookmaker in the country. I think at the time. He was. He had allegiances to the west side, the Genovese as well, but the Irish mob, the Westies, cut his head off. Ruby Stein, Yeah, so. And they took his black book. So when that happened, Jigs Forlano, kind of. He got demoted to, I believe, a soldier or whatever, you know. So I don't know really know what happened with him and Virgil from that point. But Virgil was still running gambling for him somewhere along the Line, I'm guessing between the 60s or somewhere like that or the 50s or whatever, you know, probably from the neighborhood, he met Vincent Papa. They eventually became partners and rose to having the French Connection. So when the French Connection. And that's not even why he's famous or anything else. So the French Connection, when it got busted up and we all saw the movie in 1972 at 400 Broome street in Manhattan, New York, New York, 400 Broome street was the property clerks office for the NYPD in 1972. They went to go look for the French Connection dope to present before Congress or whatever else. The Senate Committee. The Senate Committee. And when they went, they couldn't find it first, but then when they found it, they saw that there was red spots on the dope. And they're like, what is this? And they went closer and they saw there was beetles, bugs were eating it. Turns out it was sugar cane, sugar flour. So Virgil. And this is not proven, this is just suspected. Virgil, Vinnie Papa, the crew, whatever, stole it back. Now, there is some proof of it. There's a book out there or whatever that talks about this. People can look for it. I'm not gonna say it, but there's a book out there. Talk for it, whatever. And Rocco Evangelista, the gentleman that I was telling you that I had convers, I guess I spoke to the most out of all of them. Whatever. Rocky, Rocky, nice guy, he passed away, rest in peace. He was caught on wiretap. They bugged Virgil's boat and he was caught on wiretap saying, I personally made $180,000 from the dope stolen out of the property clerk's office. Something along those lines. Or the stolen dope, whatever. Yeah. So the radar was on them, but they can never prove it. So that was when Virgil Staz really went to, like, infamy. And he was a known enforcer. He's got bodies. They tracked him to I don't know how many bodies later on in his life when the French Connection, he was busted up or whatever. Right? The myth, I guess you're not supposed to sell drugs, whatever. I'm guessing somewhere along 75. When he came out in that article, he was still. He was in jail a lot during the 70s. In and out, in and out. They were trying to bust him for anything, parole violations. He picked up a phone one time just to say hello. And the guy who called on the other line was a mobster. And they fucking violated him. So it was like they were looking for any little thing, throwing back in jail going forward, he winds up getting made, I believe around 77 from my research. And he gets integrated into New Jersey Decal Conti family. That's who he's made under. How that happened, I don't know. I'm trying to get in contact with Sammy the Bull. Maybe he knows. Answer my fucking text, Sammy, you son of a bit. But you know, no, seriously, I'm trying to reach out. He's probably one of the only people that know this. This kind of information. And the people maybe that do know won't talk. So the only person that's really talking about this or whatever. But he's a queen's guy. He integrates himself. And maybe it's because he had that stigma of being involved in drugs at such a high level is why they didn't want to make him in the five families. I'm not sure. But the D. Kawakanti family had a faction in Queens and Manhattan and he integrated with them and that was how he got made. And then later on, he was still with the bookmaking, but he was a well known enforcer. Wow, there's a story. And later in the years, in the 80s, when he gets out of jail, I don't know why I'm drawing a blank on it or whatever, but people look up the story. He has a heart attack while he's on a hit. He's with the Genovese guy and he's with someone else or whatever. And there's a newspaper article about it. I just have to refresh my memory. I got so much stuff in my head. But somebody actually recently spoke about this or came out, but Virgil was waiting for him in the garage. Do you remember when John Gotti sent someone to bust up the union guy? I think his name was John O'Connor or something like that. The guy who did it, I guess, messed up. I forget his name. I don't know why I'm drawing a blanket. Anyway, they lured this guy to a garage and Virgil was there waiting for him and killed him. And while he killed him, he had a heart attack and he had to take him to the hospital. Oh, shit. That was like one of the last hits he on. He died later on in 98 from like heart complications. He had a bad heart.
- [81:15]
B
Wow.
- [81:15]
A
Yeah.
- [81:16]
B
That's crazy.
- [81:17]
A
Yeah. So I mean, his story is crazy. A guy that started as a phone man in the world of organized crime. He started as a phone man, then, you know, gambling, then the French Connection, then stealing it back then. Known enforcer, connected to all the five Families, in a way, you know. And I got more stories about him that come out on my podcast. You know, I'm trying to. Nobody really knows about him too much, you know. And he was the inspiration for Virgil Sollozzo and the Godfather. If you think it was like him and Vinnie Papa maybe mixed together. But that's who he was. He was like an independent guy who did his own thing. And if you see pictures of him, he just looks like in the book. It's just like your typical MGM, 1950s mobsters. Like white suit pressed to a teeth. My uncle used to tell me he had the cigarette holder, gold one, pop it open like class, class. Not a piece of shit in the street class.
- [82:09]
B
Wow. Did he ever write a book? Did he write anything down?
- [82:11]
A
Are you fucking nuts? No way, bro. You gotta never talk or whatever. These guys are probably pissed that I'm talking about. I only waited for my uncle, you know, to pass away, to actually say some of these stories. Cause me and him used to talk a lot. If you saw my uncle, maybe he smiled twice in his whole life, you know, he was always very serious man. Yeah, very serious man. Everybody knew that every, you know, he'd get in a good mood once in a while, but he just stoned face most of the time. And he didn't really talk about any of this stuff to anybody but me, you know, we used to drink a little cognac. I go over every Monday. Not every Monday, but some Monday nights he invite me over for dinner. He made the best pasta vajoules. Oh, my God, the pasta vajou. Forget it. It was amazing. I licked the bowl. So we go over, we'd have some wine, we'd have some soup or pasta, whatever. And when there was this thing, we break out the cognac. And I like to drink. So you know, the conversations you could have over. And I love to be around old guys like that, campfire like this, telling the stories and stuff. I could sit there all day and listen to the old timers. And that's what I used to do. And he would tell me some real good things.
- [83:09]
B
Wow.
- [83:09]
A
You know, history stuff. Yeah, I didn't really know about Virgil like that as a kid. I just knew, like, he was my father's boss or his daddy's boss, go say hello, shake his hand or whatever. Oh, hello, how are you, sir? You know, things like that or whatever, you know. But when I got older, you know, and the Internet came about or whatever, and you'd hear, and I'd be like, ass Jeeves, you know, like, things like that. And I'd be like, I never forget one time, I think it was, like, right around the time that cell phones came around or whatever. Like, you could actually Google something on the phone and it would come up. I don't remember, maybe it was a BlackBerry. And I was like, oh, look at this cool. I was like, uncle Mike, look at this cool info I found on Virgil or whatever. It says he was connected to the Gambino. He fucking read me the riot act or whatever. And if you've ever been yelled at by an old Italian man, you know exactly what I'm talking about, or whatever. I was just put my head down, was like, holy shit, what the fuck are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you looking at stuff? What are you asking so many questions?
- [84:03]
B
What is the question?
- [84:04]
A
He went nuts on me or whatever. And I was like, oh. I was like, all right. Sorry. I was like, I don't know. I just looked it up or whatever. I didn't realize. And then when I started researching, that's why I didn't, like, idiot. I said that, like, out loud in front of everybody. Like, duh, look at this.
- [84:17]
B
That's when you learn to keep your mouth shut. That you're like, that was the moment.
- [84:20]
A
I knew to keep my mouth shut before that. But I just thought it was. I thought it was, like, okay to say. And it's never okay to say with those guys. Like, all these things now, like I said, is because they passed away and this history will die. Like, look, you're a guy who comes very often to Williamsburg. You have your studio, you're in Brooklyn a lot or whatever, right? You would never know about any of this stuff, you know, forgotten streets, just things just swiped up in history and gone. So it's like, if you don't kind of keep this stuff alive, you know, it's like, eh. And I mean. I mean, not only did I see it, but when you start going down those rabbit holes, you know, yo, this is my family. Yeah. Like, oh, my God, I remember that guy. And then, like, things start clicking you when you're older, like, hearing things as a kid of stories. And then, like, my dad would have newspaper articles, and I'd be like, did you know this guy? And he'd be like, yeah, I knew him. That's Joe. Or whatever. And it'd be like, the guy Joe just got shot in the head or whatever during the Colombo war. Yeah, it was like, things like that or whatever, you know? And I be like, damn, I Can't believe, like, this was like a kind of a part of us, you know? And then as I grew up, I started watching, like, the A and E documentaries. Bill Curtis or whatever. So, you know, I mimic my channel a little bit off that. Like a crime noir, like, let's find out, like a detective series. Double Indemnity. Ever seen that in the 40s?
- [85:35]
B
No.
- [85:35]
A
It's a real good film or whatever. It's. If people know what I'm talking about, it's like a crime detective film. Yeah, it's a little inspiration for my channel as well.
- [85:41]
B
So who was at these dinners? Like these little. These. These, like, Italian Monday night cognac dinners. Like, was it just Virgil? Was it? Were there?
- [85:49]
A
No, no, no, no, no. Virgil wasn't at those dinners. The Monday night dinners was more like when I got older and I could talk with my uncle as an adult.
- [85:58]
B
Ah, I see, I see.
- [85:58]
A
Right, right, right. So the time that I would say that I spent with, like, Virgil and Rocky and those guys or whatever, like, as with my family during family events. So it was like Christmas, July 4th was a big deal. July 4th, we hung out a lot. Christmas Eve, trying to think, like, Memorial Day, barbecues, stuff like that was when I was kind of like, guaranteed to see them and hang out with them and run around with their kids and whatever.
- [86:24]
B
Oh, that's cool. Can you explain the allure of John Gotti? Like, I'm obviously familiar with him through pop culture and kind of the things that, like, most people kind of know, but as far as, like, what his role was in sort of, like Italian organized crime and, like, why he's so respected.
- [86:43]
A
He didn't care who he was. He didn't try to hide it. He lived life on his terms. He did whatever he wanted to do. If you're going to do something, try to be the best at it. That's my motto. And for me, I don't think he was the best gangster, but he was one of the best to do it in regards to the way he flaunted it, the way he carried himself, just his demeanor. He was almost godlike. And most of the guys that you'll talk to that are around him, he just had that aura. There's certain men that you'll meet that have that. That charism and that personality where you follow them. A lot of them are dictators, a lot of them are bad people, but they have it. And he had it.
- [87:21]
B
Interesting.
- [87:21]
A
So he just happened. If he was a politician, he could have been president. If he was a. He worked For Ford, he'd be the CEO. You understand those kind of people. That was him.
- [87:33]
B
And people want to follow him.
- [87:34]
A
People want to follow him. They respect him. He had balls. He had charisma. He was tough. Smart moneymaker.
- [87:40]
B
Yeah.
- [87:40]
A
You know, and. And just his. His whole rise to it all. And he was also super connected. He. He had, like, the. The assimilated rank of captain before even being a made guy.
- [87:51]
B
Wow.
- [87:51]
A
That's the kind of pull he had. He was running, like, the Fatico Club, I think, before he was even made.
- [87:56]
B
He's almost like a prodigy in a way.
- [87:58]
A
People would talk about, like, how he would go certain places, how he was gonna be destined to be the top. Funny story with John Gotti and Virgil. When this is in Al Diarco's book, they forgot the name of Al Diarco. He was an underboss in the Lucchese crime family. Recent during the Vic and gas, the whole mob wars going on in Brooklyn during the 90s. He flipped. And there's a section where nobody can believe that Paul Castellano got killed. And the first person to say had to be John Gotti was Virgil.
- [88:31]
B
Oh, wow.
- [88:31]
A
It's stated in Al Diarco's book. It's like everybody else read, like the book goes on or whatever. Al is in shock. Everybody in, you know, wherever he is, mdc, MCC or whatever, you know, everybody. And the consensus according to New Jersey, drug dealer, gangster, but he wasn't from New Jersey. It was something that the book got wrong. He was from Queens, but they probably thought he was from Jersey because he was made with the D's. So they're like. In the book, they're like, everybody was in shock. The whole Mafia row. And all those guys were like, holy shit. Like, the boss got whacked or whatever. And the person to say had to be John got Gotti was Virgil.
- [89:05]
B
Wow.
- [89:06]
A
So they. They obviously knew each other.
- [89:08]
B
Interesting.
- [89:08]
A
I don't know the extent of the relationship, but my father met Gotti.
- [89:11]
B
Oh, really?
- [89:12]
A
Yeah.
- [89:13]
B
He would, like, come by the restaurant kind of situation.
- [89:14]
A
Yeah, I got a great story. I think I might have saved this one, though. I'll keep it. You have to bring me back maybe.
- [89:20]
B
Yeah. Or we can check it out in a corruption connection.
- [89:24]
A
I'm waiting for a guest. Sammy. Sammy. Sammy was talking to my father face to face, having a conversation while John Gotti was there. And something happened. And I want Sammy to confirm it. And if he confirms it or whatever, it'll be a great story.
- [89:38]
B
Oh, wow.
- [89:39]
A
Yeah, I know it's true because multiple People have told me it, and it was all the game. There was a meeting. It was tons of Gambino guys there. Tons of dicapi guys. It was during. Everybody thinks that the merger happened. There was like a peace talk or a merger or something like that, where Gotti went to the ball. John Rhee at the time had told him to stop making guys in New York and all this stuff. Some people say it happened at a funeral, but I know that it happened at a meeting at a restaurant.
- [90:09]
B
Wow.
- [90:10]
A
And not a lot of people know that. And Sammy was there, and Sammy knows it. I don't know if there's anybody else around that maybe could confirm it, but my father was talking with Sammy and something happened or whatever. It's funny. Whatever. It's a good story.
- [90:23]
B
And you gotta come back once you get confirmation.
- [90:26]
A
I mean, if the guy will answer his emails. Yeah.
- [90:29]
B
Now, some people would say that the biggest Mafia in New York City is the police.
- [90:34]
A
We the biggest gang. We're not the biggest Mafia.
- [90:37]
B
What's the difference?
- [90:38]
A
The Feds are the Mafia. The Feds have that power. They come and get you wherever you want. You're not safe. NYPD does have a lot of the technology that the Feds use, but I would. I think people shit in their pants a little bit more when they hear the FBI is coming for you, as opposed to nypd. Yeah, you know, makes sense. State, federal, local, federal. You know what I mean? It's like they'll ask you and you hear local. They're just, hey, whatever. But when it's Feds, something serious, those are the big boys, you know? So it's like, same thing with the mob. You might deal with a couple street guys. You might think a guy is made. You might think he's the biggest mob boss ever. He's like the scariest guy in the neighborhood. There's guys, but he's answering to somebody else. There's a guy who tells a story about this on one of the podcasts I watched. And he was a reformed gangster with the. With the Gambinos in Queens. And he talks about this gangster called Ronnie One Arm. I think he's alive still. He's in jail. Always had a gun. Everybody thought he was like, he had like, a shorter arm from an accident or something. So always had in his pocket, but he always had a gun on him. And he was like a known big shot from Ozone park area, big bookmaker, killer, tough guy, all that stuff or whatever. And he answered to people. Supposedly, two smaller guys that are still around. I'M not gonna say their name. That supposedly beat the shit out of him one day and everybody thought he was the big bad mob boss guy.
- [91:57]
B
There's always someone bigger, somebody behind you. So I'm curious, in your time in the, in the biggest gang in New York, as a cop, did you see any corruption? Did you hear any, like, rumors of corruption, like, happening internally with, you know, any of the people in a different precinct? Like, oh, this guy's, you know, getting money from this thing. This guy's robbing this guy. Like, were there rumors of that stuff?
- [92:15]
A
Stuff, yes. So I love when people say, and this is sarcasm too, especially cops or whatever. Like, you know, oh my God, why would somebody risk their career and badge and all they work for or whatever, you know, they wouldn't do that or whatever. And there's another guy who was retired who had said this, whatever. And it kind of makes no sense what he's saying because every day. Not every day. All right, that's exaggerating. But every once in a while you'll hear a story of a low level cop that gets busted doing shit. Guy got bodyguard. There was a cop who. Bodyguard. He was detective, I believe. Bodyguard for El Chapo's wife. He was a cop. All on the force. There is a female officer who was connected to a Bronx fentanyl drug trafficking ring. There was a Asian sergeant or detective or whatever who was taking bribes from some of the biggest gambling houses in the 109, you know, and that got totally swept under the rug. I mean, what you see nowadays as far as the corruption is it's maybe not concentrated so much towards the lower level cops because they won't do it on Dewey, you understand? Like that girl that was protecting the drug dealers or the couriers, she's just showing her shield and thinking she's getting out of shit. That's actually how she got got caught, because they were already investigating. And then when she showed her shield, she kind of threw herself under the bus. That's what I told you. Does that sound like a mafia? So to you that sounds like a gang or whatever, but if I showed a fed shield, those cops would run away, right? If I was a fed and I was protecting the drug guys, that sounds a little more Mafioso to me.
- [93:55]
B
Yeah.
- [93:55]
A
You know what I mean? So that being said, or whatever, you know, you see, organized crime doesn't have to be mafia or whatever, just organized crime. Any nationality. And mostly, you know, I don't know what you would consider because there's so many different ethnic Backgrounds and this and that or whatever. But prostitution, gambling, all the stuff, all those vices or whatever that were supposedly harmful, but they generate a lot of money. You best believe that there is some upper echelon cop brass that is okay with that.
- [94:33]
B
Wow.
- [94:34]
A
Or is not addressing it.
- [94:35]
B
Wow.
- [94:36]
A
So what would you call that? I would call that corruption.
- [94:38]
B
Yeah.
- [94:40]
A
They all know what's going on in their precincts. I don't want to say that they're going in there like the old days and getting envelopes and stuff like that or whatever. But favors, that's what you'll see. Favors. It's like I was telling you before with that guy who was a nobody and now he's a somebody. That's a favor. That to me is corruption. There's also nepotism, which is very prevalent in the nypd, and that kind of breeds corruption a little in itself. And it really depends on what you consider corruption. Like are they would consider what, me taking a cup of coffee or whatever and not putting $1.25 down at the time. Maybe corruption, like, oh, he's gonna get corrupted by this guy at a coffee shop because this, that a third, you know. But meanwhile, whatever. You could take a. You could take dinner at Peter Luger's or wherever else or whatever with a known organized crime figure or someone who owns the building where the prostitution's taking place.
- [95:29]
B
Hmm, I see. I see.
- [95:32]
A
Landlords know the deal, precinct commanders know the deal. And I know this whatever, because I have a friend who's a landlord and he has the precinct commander on his fucking speed dial. So he owns a lot of buildings, and when there's a problem, he addresses it. And when there's not a problem, he doesn't address it. Unless somebody makes a problem about it. You know what I mean? Unless somebody raises the issue. It's like you think that the CEO, the commanding officer, the 125 doesn't know that 125 and Lex. Oh, the 25 doesn't know that 125 and Lex or whatever is a drug haven, that people are dropping like flies left and right, that there's fentanyls. They know. They know what goes on. They have a sheet, a robbery patent. They study their executives. They go to CompStat. They know all the stuff that needs to be addressed. It depends how much you want to address it. And then that goes also with the politics, you know what I mean? There's local leaders who don't want you doing stop and frisk in NA neighborhood who don't want you busting up that restaurant because his brother in law owns it. I would call that corruption.
- [96:31]
B
Interesting. Yeah, I think people, especially me, have sort of this, you know, kind of glassy, you know, perspective when it comes to law enforcement.
- [96:38]
A
Still wet behind the ears.
- [96:39]
B
Yeah, exactly right. You see the law enforcement like, oh, you know, these are good guys, they're helping out. And most of them are, of course, but at the higher levels, there's always some type of scheme happening. There's always. There's always some type of relationship that needs to be preserved.
- [96:51]
A
They call it white shirt immunity. That's what they call it. Once you hit that executive rank, you take care of each other. You know, listen, that is the way it's supposed to be. Don't tell me you wouldn't do it. Don't tell me I wouldn't do it. Don't tell me they wouldn't do it. You take care of your own, I get it. But at the same time, you're supposed to. Everybody knows politicians are corrupt. Everybody knows that cops and politicians go to the same dinners, are in the same circles. You can meet a local leader or whatever in a really bad neighborhood and the priest and commander and they're having the little conversations or whatever. They know what goes on. Whatever you sell to the public is just a facade. We're doing things. If people complain otherwise, we got other shit to worry about. You know, look at the mayor. He's in Miami. You know what I mean? He's got other things to worry about. He doesn't have the city to worry about. As long as he gets his free dinners and he take care of him and a couple contractors or whatever else, it's all favorable. They won't leave traces now because they learned. They learned the way to do it. They perfected the game. You know, the government stole all the secrets from the mob, and now the government workers act like mafia people. That's exactly what it is.
- [98:04]
B
And as I guess like the legal forces like the ricos and things like that come down, people just get better. Like I heard this with like counterfeiting money, like they would. The FBI would always put out, like the minting service would put out, like what to spot to see if something's counterfeit or not. And they would release these big public press releases like all through the 70s and 80s. And the counterfeiters obviously were looking at it and they got better and better at perfecting the counterfeits to where you couldn't even tell the difference. And then they stopped releasing the Discrepancies. Because they're like, every time we put a discrepancy out, then they change it. So I feel like it's the same thing where you have, you know, crackdowns on organized crime. And as the crackdowns get better and better, they're learning. They're learning and they're perfecting it to where now there's like no trace, there's no trail. And everyone can kind of work together.
- [98:46]
A
That's why the real Italian mob that's still operating is all underground. Everybody says the west side, the Genovese, they are the pinnacle of what the mob is supposed to be. They have no informants maybe one in the last, I don't know how many years, 20 years or 30. They don't talk. You don't know who's in charge. You don't know who the boss is. You don't know where he operates out of. And you don't even know if he's doing anything legitimate. Illegitimate is. He's super clean and isolated, perfected. So they learn and they don't kill people anymore. That's what brought a lot of heat down.
- [99:18]
B
They have other ways.
- [99:19]
A
But see, that in itself is good and bad. Because it's good. Because you legitimize yourself. Now why are you going to kill him? Go. You got a. You got a legal business. I was telling you, an association, sue em. You got lawyers now. You put your kids through law school or whatever or something. So sue them, right? But those other ethnic groups, they don't think that way. They think violence. You know, Albanians, they saw fucking war. Kosovo, whatever. These like, you know, the Yugoslavia war or whatever with the Serbians, they hate each other. So it's on site with those guys. So do you think like, you know, they're the ones that took over the street and all that other stuff, it leaves a gap because the gap is gone. Because the Italians or whatever, they're not killing people anymore. How are you gonna be feared if you're not killing anybody? Go do something to an Albanian, they'll kill you, probably. You know what I mean? Organized crime, you know what I mean? But if the Italians are not really dropping bodies like that, Most of the violence now anyway, the body drop is the gang members. But some of the Italians are supplementing stuff out to the gangs. You've seen that the Lucchesis were hooked up with the Bloods. And a guy from my neighborhood is actually doing 30 years. He contracted one of the Bloods to take out somebody. He's with the west side yeah. He grew up right on my block.
- [100:28]
B
And we'll leave it at that. Tony Hernandez, thank you so much, brother. If you're interested in hearing more crime stories, more mob stories, kind of the noir genre, we're talking about corruption, connection. Great YouTube channel, awesome Instagram page.
- [100:41]
A
Appreciate it.
- [100:42]
B
Is there any other place people can find you or those?
- [100:44]
A
I'm on TikTok. I'm trying to get the TikTok going as well, so definitely TikTok. You know, I'm all around Vegas. If you see me, say, know back in New York, I love it. Yeah, man.
- [100:54]
B
Thank you so much, brother. I really appreciate this. This is awesome. Thank you so much. Absolutely.
- [100:58]
A
Without a doubt.