Ex-FBI Agent Reveals Undercover Stories

Summary

Podcast Summary: Camp Gagnon – Episode: Ex-FBI Agent Reveals Undercover Stories

Title: Camp Gagnon
Host: Mark Gagnon
Episode: Ex-FBI Agent Reveals Undercover Stories
Release Date: December 30, 2024
Description: Home to the most interesting conversations on the internet. I'm Mark Gagnon and welcome to Camp!

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Introduction to Bob Hamer

(00:00 - 01:55)

Mark Gagnon welcomes back Bob Hamer, a former FBI agent with over 20 years of undercover experience. Bob has previously shared captivating stories about dismantling NAMBLA and infiltrating a Chinese crime syndicate. In this episode, he delves deeper into his adventures within the Italian Mafia, engaging street gangs, and even instances where he was hired as an assassin.

Notable Quote:

• Mark Gagnon (B): "Episode might be my favorite of the three conversations that I've had with Bob. It's absolutely fascinating, and I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did." (00:22)

Infiltrating the Italian Mafia

(01:55 - 06:58)

Bob shares his early fascination with the Mafia, sparked by a research paper in middle school despite warnings from his teacher. His interest in organized crime, particularly La Cosa Nostra, led him to the organized crime squad in Los Angeles. Bob explains the efforts by the Department of Justice and notable figures like Rudy Giuliani in targeting the Mafia during the 70s and 80s.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Hamer (A): "I've always been fascinated by the Mafia, organized crime, and watching those movies and everything my whole life." (02:15)
• Bob Hamer (A): "We knew that they had been involved in drugs and loan sharking and gambling and trying to figure out how we could fit in." (04:10)

Close Calls and Undercover Challenges

(06:58 - 22:49)

Bob recounts his experience using a Nagra, a bulky recording device, during his undercover work. He narrates a tense encounter where a mobster almost discovers his hidden recorder, highlighting the constant dangers faced by undercover agents. Additionally, Bob discusses the complexities of maintaining his cover story as a screenwriter involved in the drug trade.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Hamer (A): "I didn't know Tony Soprano shopped at Kmart." (01:06)
• Bob Hamer (A): "There was one time, and again, most of these… there was a. … man purse sitting on the table. The nagra is running." (06:58)

Infiltrating Street Gangs

(22:49 - 62:18)

Transitioning from the Mafia, Bob discusses his infiltration of street gangs like the Crips and Bloods in South Central Los Angeles. He details the strategies employed, including drug buy programs and collaboration with the LAPD's CRASH unit. Bob describes the heightened risks in gang environments compared to organized crime families and shares specific incidents, such as drive-by shootings and confrontations during drug transactions.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Hamer (A): "I'm dealing drugs in Hollywood and they're saying they control Hollywood." (12:20)
• Bob Hamer (A): "And one night I was just sitting in the truck waiting for them to bring the drugs out from the car. And it was a drive-by shooting." (50:22)

Contract Killing Cases

(63:49 - 98:07)

Bob delves into two high-stakes contract killing cases. The first involves a lawyer wanting his father killed, where Bob adopts the role of a mercenary to fulfill the assassination demands. He narrates the challenges of maintaining his cover, negotiating with criminals, and the eventual arrests resulting from these operations.

In the second case, Bob recounts infiltrating the Mexican Mafia to take down key figures like Robert Salas. He shares the intricate details of setting up meetings, the risks of carrying recording devices, and the tactical maneuvers that led to successful convictions.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Hamer (A): "The pretense of the meeting is that I can get the job done. That I'm essentially, I'm a mercenary." (66:20)
• Bob Hamer (A): "When I throw the baseball at the surveillance van, you guys come out and arrest everybody." (85:21)
• Bob Hamer (A): "I was there just to protect Mark, but not as an FBI agent. I was there as Mark's friend." (95:56)

Interactions with the Mexican Mafia

(98:07 - 107:28)

Focusing on his work against the Mexican Mafia, Bob explains their operations within Los Angeles, particularly their involvement in the drug trade. He discusses the hierarchical structure led by figures like Joe Morgan and Robert Salas, and the strategies employed to dismantle their network. Bob also touches upon the collaboration with informants and the personal risks involved, including attempts on informants' lives.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Hamer (A): "He runs things when he was out of prison. Really good looking guy." (98:46)
• Bob Hamer (A): "We ended up doing partial deal. Ends up shooting in the Denny's parking lot." (83:25)

Notable Anecdotes and Lessons Learned

(107:28 - 109:51)

Bob shares memorable moments from his undercover career, including courtroom dramas and unexpected interactions. He recounts incidents like jurors actively paying attention to his testimonies and the emotional toll of dealing with violent criminals. These stories underscore the psychological resilience required in undercover operations and the intricacies of legal proceedings involving organized crime.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Hamer (A): "It's like, you got to screw with the people, so you just go with it." (85:22)
• Bob Hamer (A): "But yes, I did this … I didn't, I didn't run away. I didn't cry. I'm capable of being an FBI agent." (94:35)

Conclusion

(109:51 - End)

Mark wraps up the conversation by expressing gratitude for Bob's candid storytelling. Bob briefly touches upon another intimidating encounter with a criminal named Milton Parness, highlighting the lingering fears and challenges he faced even after successful operations. The episode concludes with mutual appreciation, hinting at future discussions and deeper dives into Bob's extensive career.

Notable Quote:

• Mark Gagnon (B): "Wow, this is just so crazy. Thank you so much for sharing all these stories, brother. I really do appreciate this." (109:51)

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Key Takeaways

• Undercover Complexity: Bob Hamer's experiences illustrate the multifaceted nature of undercover work, from maintaining credible covers to navigating dangerous criminal networks.

• Psychological Resilience: The ability to remain calm and composed in high-stress situations is paramount for undercover agents.

• Collaborative Efforts: Successful operations often involve tight coordination between various law enforcement agencies and informants.

• Legal Intricacies: Courtroom battles are as challenging as field operations, requiring meticulous evidence handling and strategic testimonies.

Notable Quotes with Attribution:

• Bob Hamer (A):

  • "I've always been fascinated by the Mafia, organized crime, and watching those movies and everything my whole life." (02:15)
  • "I didn't know Tony Soprano shopped at Kmart." (01:06)
  • "When I throw the baseball at the surveillance van, you guys come out and arrest everybody." (85:21)
  • "I'm dealing drugs in Hollywood and they're saying they control Hollywood." (12:20)

• Mark Gagnon (B):

  • "Episode might be my favorite of the three conversations that I've had with Bob. It's absolutely fascinating, and I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did." (00:22)
  • "Wow, this is just so crazy. Thank you so much for sharing all these stories, brother. I really do appreciate this." (109:51)

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Note: This episode offers an in-depth look into the shadowy world of undercover law enforcement through Bob Hamer's firsthand accounts. Listeners are treated to gripping narratives that reveal the sacrifices and dangers faced by those who risk everything to dismantle organized crime from within.

Transcript

[A]

We were going to build a lab in North Korea.

[B]

What?

[A]

Oh, did I forget to mention that?

[B]

This is Bob Hamer. If you've never seen him before, he's been on this show twice, and he's absolutely fascinating. First, he told us how he took down nambla. And then he told us how he infiltrated a Chinese crime syndicate. And today he's here to tell us even crazier stories from his over 20 years of undercover FBI work.

[A]

And I jump in front of him with my gun drawn and freeze. FBI. Because he had said he would never be taken alive.

[B]

He'll tell us about the time he was an undercover drug dealer that got into a shootout at a Denny's, ends.

[A]

Up shooting in the Denny's parking lot. And I shoot Knoll and Steel. Kind of give a new meaning to grand Slam special. I don't think I'm allowed at that Denny's anymore.

[B]

Or about the time that he was hired to be an assassin.

[A]

I did two contract killing cases. The first got introduced to a lawyer who wanted his father killed, and he really liked me because I had killer eyes.

[B]

But first he'll tell us what it was like infiltrating the Italian mob and what happened when he was at a Kmart with his daughter and ran in to the mob boss that he was trying to get arrested.

[A]

Holy crap. FBI didn't shop at K. I didn't know Tony Soprano shopped at K. This.

[B]

Episode might be my favorite of the three conversations that I've had with Bob. It's absolutely fascinating, and I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and welcome to camp Bob Hamer. I'm really excited to talk specifically about undercover work within the Sicilian and Mexican Mafia. So I'm curious. I want to start with the kind of the Italian Mafia stuff. So in your work doing undercover with the FBI, how did you first start hearing about the Italian Mafia? What kind of crime were they doing, and what was your. Your M.O. with that case?

[A]

Well, in terms of the Italian Mafia, I was always interested. I mean, I think in seventh or eighth grade, I did a research paper on the Mafia. And I remember the teacher wrote on the note, you're liable to get whacked or you might be getting killed writing this stuff. But I've always been fascinated by the Mafia, organized crime, and watching those movies and everything my whole life. Most of my education came from tv. It's like I watched too much Rockford Files. That was the best training for being an undercover agent was watch Rockford Files and watching him lie in his way out of situations. So I was always interested in the organized crime and the Mafia, La Cosa Nostra, and was hoping that I would get that opportunity, especially once I started working undercover. So when I transferred into Los Angeles, I was on an organized crime squad. Now look, this is New York where you guys know organized crime. This is where it all began. Louisiana was kind of referred to as the Mickey Mouse Mafia.

[B]

So I would never call it that. Okay, well, if they're, if they're listening, yeah, I would never call it that.

[A]

Actually, thanks to our efforts, there really isn't a Los Angeles Mafia anymore. So you're okay. But. So I looked forward work in organized crime to getting into that. And LA had had a couple different concerted efforts going after the family. They had one in the early mid-70s, then the late 70s, and then when I came into LA was in the early 80s, and it was sort of in 84 and 85 where we took another hard stab. This was back when throughout the federal government and the Attorney General and Department of justice, they were hitting the Mafia hard. And you had the organized crime strike force. So every town that had a mob influence probably had an organized crime strike force. You had a great one here, obviously, Rudy Giuliani and those people did a tremendous job. In Los Angeles, we had an organized crime strike force. James D. Henderson was the head of the strike force, was the top DOJ attorney. And we just, we went after the LA family. I was fortunate. Again, I gravitated toward the undercover work. I wanted an opportunity to work it. So we were taking a hard look at the family and what they were doing. We knew that they had been involved in drugs and loan sharking and gambling and trying to figure out how it was we could fit in. We were looking at two brothers. A hard look at two brothers, Anthony and Larry Fiato. And they weren't made guys, but they were associates. And there's a book out called the Animal in Hollywood and it's about Anthony Fiato. And he was. I mean, he was as bad as any of the organized crime figures in la. He was just a tough guy, a really tough guy. Well, it turned out that we put together a pretty decent case against him and he ended up cooperating. It was funny. In the book the Animal in Hollywood by John Smith, a Las Vegas reporter, he talks about, again, I, I wouldn't screw with you, Mark, because I like you and I like the podcast, but I like screwing with people. And. And we had a wiretap on Anthony. And he was a tough guy. I mean, he was built. Well, I, I, I boxed, but I'm not sure I wanted to get in the ring with him. I, I'd be willing to get in the ring with him. Not sure I want to get in a street fight with him, because he was, he was a tough guy, but he was having anxiety attacks. And we had wiretaps on, on his phone, and he's, he's on the phone talking about. I just went to the doctor. I got an anxiety attack. My doctor says a lesser man would be dead by now because of, because of everything I'm going through. I, you know, I know the fricking FBI is after me, and these people are. I, I don't know. So, so we hit him up with search warrants sometime later. A lot of times when we would have wiretaps, we'd hit up in the middle of the wiretap because we wanted to tickle the wire. We, we wanted him to leave. Sometimes it was dangerous because you'd have the wiretap up and, and you'd leave and they go, oh, freaking idiots. I had all the drugs stored in the, the freezer, and nobody even looked in the freezer. I mean, you know, there would be incidents like that where it's like, oh, this is kind of embarrassing that, that we miss this. Of course, then you get a search warrant, go back in to go to the freezer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But so we knew all this. So we hit him up with a search warrant while the wiretap is still up and searching a back room. He's sitting on the couch, and he's starting to have an anxiety attack. And I think he's blowing into a paper bag or something, because I'm in the back room doing the search, and I come out and he's sitting on the couch. And the assistant special agent in charge, Jim Nelson, was probably the expert on organized crime in the FBI. I mean, you could just name a name, and he could tell you what city the guy was in, what family he was associated with, what his crimes were. I mean, he was, it was an encyclopedic knowledge of organized crime. And I kind of liked to listen to him because he taught at the academy. It was just fantastic. But so he's sitting there, kind of common fiato down, and I'm with Chris Pillsbury, great agent. His brother was Chris Pillsbury. If you look up on IMDb, he played the Lone Ranger in one of those Lone Ranger movies early. But so Chris and I are talking, and I go And I'm whispering because I want Fiato to hear, but I want him to think that I'm whispering. I said, he doesn't look good. And Chris goes, he kind of looks at me because we're behind him. We're in the back while he's on the couch. We're behind the couch. He doesn't look good. He said, I think maybe. I think maybe we better call 91 1. We better get an ambulance here because he doesn't look good. And Fiato starts, what the f. What's going on here? I'm having an anxiety attack. He says, I don't look good. You want to call 911? And Jim Nelson, the ASAC, he goes, who's saying that? He said, that guy right there. He's saying that. He says he doesn't know and he's not a doctor. And I said, well, I'm not a doctor now. I was before I became an FBI.

[B]

So Fiato just.

[A]

He's going off. So we finally. Everything calmed down. We wrap up the search warrant, we leave. He gets on the phone at Effinghamer, you know, get effing Hamer and all this, and. And then he ends up cooperating. And it was. It was an education to work with him.

[B]

In what way?

[A]

Just learning so much about organized crime, how they think, what they. The ways in which they get things done, how he grew up, what. What his background was. And he grew up in Boston, so sort of the history of the Boston family. And it was. I really enjoyed sitting down with him and learning this. And now he's cooperating, so he's on our team. And he and his brother, and we ended up setting up an operation. Obviously, I'm not Italian, so, you know, Joe Pistone did a great job as Donnie Brasco, but I'm not going to. I'm not going to fool Jack Garcia, who's a Cuban but looks Italian. I mean, he did a great job. So I'm not going to go in as. As an Italian. There are undercover cases I couldn't do like they did. Jay Dobbins infiltrated the Hell's Angels. Billy Queen infiltrated the Mongols. I mean, I couldn't do it. One, I don't ride a motorcycle. Two, I'm not all tatted up, you know, So I. But I would have to come up with something. Like, if they said, Bob worked the Hell's Angels, it's like, okay, I'm. I'm selling Harley Davidson mufflers or something. You know, you got to do something to Ingratiate yourself to get in there. So I just thought, well, I'll be a screenwriter now. This is in the early 80s or mid-80s. It's not. Not like now where you got IMDb and you go on the Internet and find out about people. So my story was that I was a screenwriter and I was selling drugs in Hollywood and I was paying a street tax back to the Fiatos. So the Fiatos were taking my street tax money to Luigi. Gelfuso, who was a capo, was taking the money to Luigi.

[B]

And that's a pretty common practice. That's a legit thing that happens. They create the Godfather and there's a street tax that's involved. That would be a fair example.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

And you're basically paying the families that are involved to portray them on screen and to use the story well.

[A]

Yeah, but the street tax is just to operate. If you want to operate in someone's jurisdiction, you got to kick in a piece of everything that you're making to allow them. For them to allow you to operate.

[B]

And what were you operating in? Like to make the film, you mean?

[A]

No, the drug deals. So I'm dealing drugs in Hollywood in my storyline. I'm dealing drugs in Hollywood and they're saying they control Hollywood. And Anthony's story is that he's providing me one with protection. And if I want to operate in Hollywood to sell drugs, I've got to have his permission.

[B]

Oh, I misunderstood that. Oh, wow, that's wild. So you're a screenwriter that's now selling drugs and you're using and you're paying the street tax in order to do that, right?

[A]

Yeah. So that's the story. So now we make. We make a couple payments, enough that Luigi is getting happy with this money coming in. And now all of a sudden, my cocaine connection gets popped and I'm out of drugs. So if I don't have cocaine, I can't make money and I can't pay a street tax. So I end up meeting somebody. I'm not trying to be coy, I'm trying to think who I met. But they. They fronted me a kilo of cocaine to. To get me started. Now, you know, nowadays I'm. That sounds small, you know, a kilo, because you. Miami vice, they do 500 kilos, or the DEA is seizing a thousand kilos at the border or something.

[B]

But a key is probably 20,000.

[A]

But a key back then it was 30,000. So that was. They were going to front me a key for 30,000. And what I did then I was paying off two different people. Not. So I'm, I'm not dealing with fiatos anymore. They've kind of, they're still there to provide me backing if I need it, but I'm. I'm dealing with two other guys and I would, I would meet them and I'd pay it. They'd given me three weeks to pay the 30,000 back. Well, I'm slow on paying, so I'd bring a thousand here, 15 here. And the deal was I'm piecing this out in Hollywood and as soon as I get it all done, I'll get it back and I get back on my feet. But right now I'm piecing this stuff out. So what the bureau was doing, I'd go to A and pay A, and then the surveillance would follow him to B, and then they'd follow B to go to C. So now we're starting to get probable cause. And we ended up having wiretaps on a couple of the capos, the boss of the family. So now we've got these wiretaps over. We got pretty good coverage on most of the major mob guys. And I'm in this position, if you're.

[B]

Like me, you probably read a news story and you're like, this is crazy. What is the truth about this? Is this a partisan spin? Is this funded by some media company or some country, by their state sponsored media to try to warp my brain? I genuinely read news articles now with so much skepticism because I have no idea if this is from the right or the left and what the agenda is and why it's being presented in front of me. And that is why I follow and support ground news. That's right. So even before I started working with this company on the podcast, I've been following them on Instagram because I just thought they gave a very, very great, unbiased, nonpartisan approach to media. It's awesome. Basically, you're going to get a headline and they will show you sort of the different media splits as it comes to understanding the story. They will compare the reporting from different outlets across the political spectrum in one place to show you how the framing and word choice can affect our understanding of a story. I mean, here's a story that my mom sent me from a couple months ago. Robberies, assaults, surge in Central park, leaving New Yorkers and NYC tourists terrified. What is the purpose of this story? Who is writing it? Where is it coming from? Now I can go to ground news, read this headline, and be able to make an assessment as to whether or not, this is predominantly being reported by the right wing or by the left wing and make some type of deduction like, oh, this is actually being used, you know, as some sort of political apparatus. So if you're like me, if you're a truth seeker, if you're trying to find unbiased news, I would absolutely recommend Ground News. It is completely independent, nonpartisan, subscriber funded. It allows readers to think critically about the world around them. And it doesn't tell them what to think, but instead lets them think for themselves. And ultimately it avoids misinformation and tries to heal polarization within our country, which I think is absolutely amazing. So don't let misinformation and sensationalism influence how you think. Save a massive 50% on Ground News's top tier vantage plan. With my link, Ground News, Gagnon G A G, N O N. Or scan my QR code right here or go to the description and click on the link. This unlocks access to all of their news analysis features. Something that I think is, I don't know, super important to have. Yeah. Make decisions based on facts, not spin. Check them out. Let's get back to the show in.

[A]

The middle of this. And. And I'm a screenwriter. So what I would do, I had a buddy that worked at Universal Studios. So I would call him up and I'd say, hey, look, can you leave me four passes at the gate? And he knew I was an FBI agent. I said, can you leave me four passes at the gate? And he says, sure. And so I would show up at 11:30 and pick my pass up and then I'd go to the commissary and I'd, you know, just call up, hey, Luigi, I would be at the comm. I'll meet you at noon at the commissary. Oh, okay. Can I come on the lot? Yeah, yeah, I'm leaving your passes. So we would leave passes. So these guys would get the passes and they would. They would come on the lot and we'd sit in the commissary and eat and you'd have big stars walking by and, you know, they're mob guys, but they're not. They're not the John Gotti's. They're not the biggest mob guys. So nobody knows who they are. But they're still enthralled by the Hollywood stardom. And Hollywood is such. That kind of. Nobody doesn't want to believe they don't know you because their fate might hurt them. So somebody would walk by and it would, it would be You. And it's like, oh my gosh, that's Mark Agnon. It's like, hey, Mark, good working with you last week. Oh, thanks, buddy. Yeah, you know, I appreciate it. See you. See you around the block next time. And it's like, he had no clue who I was. But now these guys are sitting there and they're thinking, holy. You know, this guy does know people. I mean, you know, this is pretty cool. And it was in one of our. When you asked me previously about dangerous times, there was a time back when I first started, most of our recording devices was a Nagra. And typically it was about the size of a paperback novel, a pocket paperback novel.

[B]

And what is a Nagra?

[A]

That's a recording device. So it's like a mini reel to reel recording device, but it's the size of a Niagara. I mean, it's. I mean, it's the size of a paperback. So a thin paperback, not a Tom Clancy novel. But that's why you would see in. In the old days, you know, you see the mob guys, they'd hug you and then they'd rub their hands down their back. They're looking to see if you got something in the small of your back. So there weren't too many places to hide a Nagra. I mean, you could put it in the small of your back, you could put it in a boot, but it's you. You could sometimes fit it in the front of your pants, but it just wasn't easy to conceal. So I had, I had kind of a man purse that just had a bunch of zippers on it, and I would, I put the nagger in that and then I would have other stuff. So it, it wasn't. The FBI didn't make this. It wasn't a manufactured. It was just something that I've found in a leather store. So I could put the Niagara in one of the pockets and zip it and then put other crap in there and all of that. Well, again, this is in the 80s where before cell phones, but we had pagers and I had stuck a. I had a pager and I had it on top of my man purse. It's kind of hooked into, on the man purse and I had the man purse on the table. Because one of the problems you had when you wear a wire is if it rubs up against your clothing, you get to scratches. I had a horrible incident one time. I don't tolerate garlic and I'm wearing a recording device and my stomach is grumbling and it just sounds like farting and so you're listening and it's like, oh, yeah, I remember when I did this. I mean, it was, it was embarrassing. So I tried not to wear the nagger, you know, not to wear it if I could. And it was easier just to put it on the table. And you got that. So I've got the man purse sitting on the table. The nagger is running, and this mob guy grabs the man purse and he holding it up and he rips the pager off. And he's holding the recorder in the one hand and the nag or in the, the pager, pager in the other. What the f is this? What is this? How do we. What if this is a recording device? How we. How do we know this ain't a recording device and he's recording everything we're doing? Now, I wasn't worried about getting killed in the commissary, but it was like, you know, the old idea, you know, you talk about a pucker factor. I mean, you couldn't have, you couldn't have put. You couldn't have put a 10 penny nail up my ass. And I say, it's a pager. You dial this number, you put in your number, then I know to go find a payphone and call you back. I said, here, give it to me. I shut it off, I shut it on. It's going to go all nines and then it's going to blank. So I. And I'm sweating and he's holding the recorder in this hand and finally I take it there. Are you happy now? Give me it back. And I grab the record out of his hand and put it back on the table. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Holy smokes. This was. And that was, that was one of the closer calls. But again, it was just one of those moments that they, they don't necessarily teach you that in undercover school. You don't see it on tv and.

[B]

This is quick on your feet.

[A]

It just happened to work out. But wow.

[B]

And so with this guy, that meeting that you were having with him, was that to discuss some more drugs or is this just kind of like ingratiate?

[A]

Yeah, I just kind of. To be frank, I don't remember. I mean, we're talking mid-80s a few years ago. I have trouble remembering what happened yesterday. But it was again, you just had opportunities. I wasn't the kind of guy that hung out in bars. I wasn't very good undercover agent like that. But I didn't mind having the meeting. I would much rather go to lunch with a mob guy than an FBI agent. So, yeah, so I enjoy just meeting with them and being with them and picking their brains. And I found that a lot of them, and this is true of a lot of people, they prefer to talk about themselves than about you. Sure. We got involved in that particular. And I was under for nine months in that case. But it was really a fascinating sidebar to this whole investigation because one of the guys had worked with the Mafia years ago down in Cuba before Castro took over. So I just. I was a screenwriter. So let's sit down, let's write a treatment. Let's see if we can't get this project sold. And what I need from you is I need you to tell me the true names of what everybody was doing down there. And then I'll change the names for the screenplay. But I don't want to end up, you know, putting. Making up the name John Gotti. And it turns out that it's John Gotti that was doing, you know, obviously John Gotti wasn't in Cuba, but. So you tell me all the true names and then for the treatment, I'll change the name so we can sell this project.

[B]

That's a great.

[A]

So we met. We met several times. And he laid out who was involved in how, who was involved down in Cuba, who did this, who did that. It was kind of a good historical perspective for the FBI. Again, not that we ever used it, but it was just. For me, it was fascinating. This goes back to my seventh and eighth grade term paper.

[B]

Did you learn anything about the Mafia during. Or the Italian Mafia, specifically during that case that most people don't think about or don't know?

[A]

It was during that time that they said they weren't involved in drugs, but they really were. Even if you read about the New York families, Paul Castellano said, we're not going to get involved in drugs, but guys were doing it. So they were saying out of one side of their mouth, we're not going to do drugs. But here it was. They were doing it. They were providing me with that kilo.

[B]

And how were they getting the kilos?

[A]

I have no idea. I mean, it was la. It was pretty easy to get, but it was a guy named Johnny Vaccaro out of Las Vegas that was getting it for him, for me. And so that gave me the inroads to dealing with them. And my involvement wasn't that extensive, but because of the wiretaps, we. We got so many of the admissions and everything. We. We did have a. An interesting time. I I didn't live too far from the boss of the family. I, I, I lived in a small, 900 square foot home, but. And he lived in a much nicer home, but probably lived 15 or 20 miles from where I lived. So it wasn't like I was at the tip of Long island and he was over here, and my daughter at the time was six or seven. I really should sit down and figure this out someday what it was. But we were at Kmart, and it's like, FBI agents don't make much money. They have to shop at Kmart because they can't really go Saks Fifth Avenue. And they had threatened to. Earlier in the week. They'd threatened to run me over the car and break my legs because I was slow on paying this money. And we're sitting in Kmart with my beautiful little daughter, and in comes one of the guys that was there when I was being threatened. And I was like, holy crap. FBI agent shop at came. I didn't know Tony Soprano shopped at Kmart. So I grabbed my daughter, and we kind of run out through the back warehouse section of Kmart. And later on, we had gone to the, the school. Gone to the school teachers conference. And she, the teacher said, you know, Aaron came to school one day and said that how special her daddy was because he. He could take her to that part of Kmart where the regular customers weren't allowed to go.

[B]

That's what she thought was cool.

[A]

That was cool. Not. Not the fact that dad's enough to an undercover FBI agent and we were just about to get whacked. Yeah. Mob boss is going to take you out, boy. I bet you've never been into the warehouse section of Kmart.

[B]

That part is pretty cool. They keep the bathroom back there. It's an awesome time.

[A]

Yeah, that's only for employees. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Or FBI guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wait, so he threatened you?

[A]

Yeah, because I was slow on the payment.

[B]

And how did that work? Like. Like, did they call you in?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so they give you a call. They say, hey, what was your cover name at that time for that case? Do you remember?

[A]

Bob Bourne?

[B]

So they call you up and say, hey, Bobby Bourne.

[A]

So typically, like, I would be Bobby, because I thought Bobby sounded weak, you know? Remember Sun Sar? I mean, Sun Tzu. Pretend you're weak and let them grow strong. So it was. So I was Bobby Bourne, but I had been involved during the course of this investigation. I got introduced to a guy that represented the New Jersey family, and he was out in Los Angeles at that time. A lot of the pornography was produced in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. And a lot of that was being through the New Jersey family and kind of protected by the New Jersey family. And there was, I think, somewhat of an under understanding between both families that New Jersey could do the pornography and LA wouldn't bother them and. And all that. I. I never got all the inside. But anyway, they were part of this. So I met a guy named Dino D'Agostino, great Italian name.

[B]

I mean, unbelievable name, great name.

[A]

And so I met Dino and. And this. This guy. This is not. This didn't really happen. But earlier, a few years earlier, I had arrested a guy named Jimmy Copa and Jimmy Coppola. According to Reader's Digest magazine, it wasn't true, but according to Reader's Digest magazine, he was the only guy that was in the Italian Mafia and the Mexican Mafia. And it wasn't really true, but of course, Reader's Digest says it's true. It must be true. So we ended up. We convicted Jimmy. He went to prison. He got killed in prison. But previous to that, he had been in the movie the Jericho Mile, which was filmed at Folsom Prison. So he and Robert Salas. Robert Salas was on the outside, was the acting head of the Mexican Mafia. Joe Morgan was the head of the Mexican Mafia. Joe Morgan wasn't even Mexican, but was head of the Mexican Mafia in prison. But Robert Salas was on the outside now and was running the Mexican Mafia on the outside. So Coppola and Robert Salas were both in the movie the Jericho Mile, which was just kind of a fun fact for your listeners. That's a fun fact. If you. In the scene where Jimmy's pushing the library cart past the prisoners, Robert's right there, and Jimmy's pushing the library cart. So I met Dino D'Agostino, and of course, we had a wiretap on Jimmy. So I know that Jimmy had talked to Dino. I knew where Jimmy lived and all this kind of stuff. And Jimmy had been killed in prison.

[B]

By the time you talked to Dino.

[A]

By the time I talked to Dino. So I met Dino and I just said, yeah, I don't expect you to remember me. I'm kind of a nobody. But I met you over at Jimmy's place over on Havenhurst. He said, oh, yeah, okay, yeah, so fine. So we kind of have this little talk. And I said, I need to talk to you. What about? And I said, look, I got tied up with some people here in town. I need help. And I know who you're with, but I need help. And what we had done, once I met Dino, the FBI was essentially trying to see if we could start. I shouldn't say the FBI, my case agents. We were trying to see if we start a mob war between LA and Newark, that'd be kind of fun and put me as the fire hydrant and have both sides pissing on me. And so I told. I told Dino that, look, I would. I'd like to affiliate with you guys. I need to get. I need to get the. The LA family off my back.

[B]

Still using the same cover. You're a screenwriter?

[A]

Yeah, I'm screenwriter, yeah. And they had front of me a kilo of cocaine. They gave me three weeks to pay. Now they're pressuring me. I don't like it. It wasn't even good quality stuff. And so I'm having trouble moving it. I need you to. I need your help. And it was in that meeting that he said, I can do it, but you need to bring me five. And he held up five fingers. And I was naive. As I previously told you, I'm Forrest Gump. I'm not a smart man. I thought five fingers meant $500. So I go back to my boss and I said, I need $500. What do you need that for? I said, I think we can do this. I can meet the New Jersey guys if you give me 500. I think what that means is they're going to pay for an airline ticket to bring him. To bring him out here, and then I'll meet him, and then we'll be able to sort of see how far this goes between LA and New Jersey.

[B]

So he was going to come to you?

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what I thought, because I was giving Dino the 500. And so I meet with Dino and bring him the money, and it's like, 500. I told you not to do this. I meant 5,000. And. And really, Mark, it was like, ooh, I didn't think you meant 5,000. You know, I had trouble getting 500 from my boss. I don't think they're going to give me 5,000. You know, obviously I didn't say that, but it was like, dino, I can do 5,000 once I get these guys off my back and they're selling me. So we. That didn't go the way we wanted in terms of getting the New Jersey guys out here because the Bureau wasn't going to pony up the $5,000 to do it and everything. But I ended up then with Dino getting him to Sell me cocaine. Because he said, I. I've got good stuff. You know, if the LA family, you know, essentially, if the LA family doesn't have good stuff, I've got good stuff. And I said, look, I don't. I've already got bad stuff. I don't need more bad stuff. And he goes off again. You let them talk. I know I talk too much in your podcast, but you let them talk. And it's like, I've been to the kitchens of Bogota. I've seen cocaine piled up all the way to the ceiling. I've got beds. I've. I've got the best. I can get the best stuff for you. And he's going on and on and on. So eventually we do a couple buys from him, and when we take down the top 15 guys in the LA Mafia, as the case culminates, Dino is one of them. So we get into court, and we're at the bail hearing in the federal system, in the state system, a lot of times, well, I shouldn't say. I don't know how the bail system works here in Cal, in New York, but in federal system, the bail is to ensure if you're a danger to the community, you can't be released. And so usually drugs are considered a danger to the community, so you can't be released. But if you can, you know, if you can kind of prove that you're not a danger. So we get into court. Dino has a twin brother. And his twin brother had been. He'd been in a couple of the. He was friends with Telly Savalas, so he had been in a couple of those Kojak TV shows and everything. And his twin brother was not a bright man. And we get into the bail hearing, and his twin brother is testifying as a character witness for his brother. And the defense counsel says, do you know the defendant? He goes, yeah, he a good guy. I know him all my life. It's like, it's your twin brother, I guess, probably you have known him all your life. Well, then the prosecution, Jim Henderson, one of the best prosecutors I ever worked with, they play the tapes where Dino says, I've been in the kitchens of Bogota. I've. You know, I know I've got good stuff. I know all this. And whether it was true or not, it doesn't matter. He ran his. I mean, whether Dino had been in the kitchens of Bogota, it didn't matter. He ran his mouth. And so they play that tape about, I've been in the kitchen. And his defense counsel says, your Honor, I can guarantee you that that is not true. And I can guarantee you that if my client had known Special Agent Hamer was an undercover FBI agent, he would have never said that. The judge looks at him and kind of goes, you know, essentially, yeah, that makes sense. I can understand why.

[B]

I wouldn't do that either.

[A]

I guess he. Well, so maybe we should just let him go. Well, but he didn't. And Dino ended up pleading guilty. And I don't even remember how many years he got. He's since died. His brother since died. But Dino was kind of one of those, I guess, the Hollywood type, stereotypical mob guy with.

[B]

The watches, the chains, the looks.

[A]

So now.

[B]

But when they threatened you, that's something that I'm really curious about because that's a pretty scary moment. I can imagine you get a phone.

[A]

Call, and they say, you get a.

[B]

Phone call to your house. I'm assuming they say, well, I had.

[A]

Back then, we had. We had two phone lines into the house. So we and my kids. I learned as we talked in the earlier interview, I learned not to say too much to other FBI agents, but I shared as much as I could with my family when I was going through the CIA interview. The guy said, look, you can tell your wife is, you know, you let. You try to tell them as much as you can without revealing top secrets, because if you're out at 2am in the morning, you may be running around, but you want her to believe that you're doing the Lord's work, so to speak. So I learned early that I shared as much as I could with my family. I mean, they didn't know that today I'm going to meet Jimmy Bag of Donuts at the Pisa Emporium. But they knew I was undercover, and they did it. So we had two phones at our house. We had the good guy phone and the bad guy phone. And they would just say, oh, that's daddy's bad guy phone. We can't answer that. And so it was just. It was just kind of, daddy had the bad guy phone, and when it rang, you weren't allowed to enter. And we had a recording device right next to it. So again, they understood.

[B]

So you get a call on the bad guy?

[A]

Yeah, so I get a call, and.

[B]

They say, hey, Bobby.

[A]

Yeah?

[B]

We need.

[A]

We need to see you. No, we need to see you. And so I went to the meeting.

[B]

Where'd they meet you?

[A]

At a house. At a house in the Hollywood Hills.

[B]

Did you bring any defense?

[A]

No.

[B]

Again, did you bring a tape recorder?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I Mean, I was wired and I, I mean that's just, I'm guessing now it was in the man purse.

[B]

I mean, to go to a mob meeting with these guys that you owe money and to bring a wire, I mean, if they catch that wire, you're done.

[A]

Yeah, I probably would have been. And then that would have been.

[B]

And they sit down with you and they say, hey, Bobby.

[A]

No, they're screaming at me. They're yelling. They're yelling because roughing you up. No, no, didn't touch me physically, but they, we had had earlier conversations on the wire that Luigi Galfuso, the capo would say, somebody would call him and say, I'm meeting with Bobby today. You tell that MF that he better be bringing money more than that thousand dollar stuff that he's bringing and all this kind of stuff. And if not, you break his legs. You tell him you're going to break his legs. You tell him we're going to run him over with the car. So I had heard that before and when we get there, it was sort of that same thing, that. It may be naive but you know, dead men don't pay their debts. So if you owe them money, it doesn't do any good to kill me because. And so I sort of thought they may rough me up, but I doubt it.

[B]

And you weren't afraid of like getting your hand broken or something like that? Like.

[A]

No, I, I wasn't Mark and I, I just, you know, part of it. At that particular meeting, Fiato was there. I mean, he was cooperating and he was there. So I guess, you know, I'm not trying to be coy. It was like I kind of had semi protection because he was there. Yeah.

[B]

So the whole time they're screaming at you, you're cool.

[A]

Fairly cool. Yeah. I mean, at one point they threw an ashtray and I ducked. What. Yeah, crashed in the wall behind me. But yeah. So then it was a couple days later that one of the guys who was at that meeting sees me in Walmart with my daughter.

[B]

Oh, wow. So then when these guys all get jammed up and go to prison, you feel pretty good about it. You're like, yeah, these guys that try to crack my head with an ashtray.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, I had there, there was no love loss.

[B]

Oh my goodness. I mean that, that, that case, was that a, was that a particularly stressful case or is that one pretty straightforward?

[A]

You know, again, I was doing with that case, I was doing exactly what I wanted. So, I mean, that was exciting. I mean, I've Been in. I've been in boring cases. Yeah, I don't want to talk about the boring case, but I've been in that. So. So this, for me, this was like, yeah, this is. This is cool. This is. This is a great. This is who I. Ever since the seventh and eighth grade, this is who I want to investigate, and this is where I am. And I just. I love the guys because they were just characters. I. I boxed a lot and would go to the gym and fight guys that were perfect preparing for title matches and, you know, pros are getting started and everything, and I wasn't that good. I get my head beat in, so I kind of learned how to take a punch, and I could. I could handle myself in the ring, so I was okay.

[B]

No, just as far as fighting and stress and the fear. I mean, you're with these guys, but you weirdly like them because they have a boxing culture.

[A]

Okay, thank you. You're good.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

You bring me back.

[B]

I got you.

[A]

That's why I'm here. This is the best podcast I've. That I hear and I listen to. Oh, thank you. So I. I used to watch it on espn, and I was. I was watching. I was watching it one night, and the next. The next morning, I was meeting with a mob guy in a motel room. And it was a. I don't even know why I was meeting with him, but we're watching, and he's older. I mean, probably younger than I am now, but he was older. And we're watching espn, and he had been a pro boxer here in. In New York and was a made guy, and it won't. We're watching this on espn. We're watching boxing. And he goes, hey, Bobby, that kid's pretty good. And I said, I don't know, Mike. I said, I don't think he's going to last another round. And I said, look, the back of his neck, it's getting red. He said, he's bunching up. I said, I think he's going down. Well, I'd seen the fight the night before, and he gets knocked out the next round.

[B]

He was like, man, you're a genius, Bobby.

[A]

That's great, man. You saw that. But, you know, it was the same guy one time because again, I'm a screenwriter. I'm not. I'm not a mob guy. I said, mike, I don't understand. You got. You're a made guy. I know enough about the mob that you had to kill somebody. So did you kill somebody? And he goes, bobby, is there A statute of limitations on murder. And I said, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. And he goes, next question.

[B]

It's funny because you are a lawyer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's so crazy.

[A]

So, but, you know, my point is they were characters. I just, I love the guys. I worked gangs for five years, but maybe it's because I was white, but they weren't characters. You know, they, they, there, there wasn't. There just wasn't that kind of that, that old Hollywood type of gentlemanness. Yeah, yeah. You know, and again, it was one of, they had, they had rules. I mean, you know, you don't, you don't hurt the family, you don't harm the family. You don't, you don't do this, you don't do that. So you could kind of with that old mob mentality, it was safer to deal with them. I loved Debbie Reynolds, the actress who had the. I think she had a casino or something in Las Vegas. But I saw her interviewed one time and she said, you know, when the mob ran Las Vegas, nobody got killed that wasn't supposed to. And it was like, it was true. I mean, you didn't have drive by shootings where somebody just mowing you down, you know, Obviously did in the 30s, but.

[B]

Right. But I've heard about Boston as well. Like, like before. Oh, who was it? There was a crime family that kind of went up against Whitey Bulger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And apparently Boston was like a little safer. And then once that those guys got taken out, Whitey Bulger kind of ran amok and made it way more dangerous. So I've heard stories like that where some of these Italian mob guys kind of had like a level of decorum and they would kind of keep things at peace for a little bit, or their version of peace, I guess. What was the most. I'm sorry, what were you gonna say?

[A]

No, I was gonna say that there was at one point in the greater neighborhood where we lived, where the mob boss lived, they were gonna put in a porn studio at one of the warehouses. And some lady from our church came to me and said, you know, this is, this is horrible. What do you suggest I do? I said I'd go talk to the mob boss. I'd go talk to Pete Milano and tell him. And so I think she really, I mean, she went to him and said, you're going to ruin the neighborhood by doing this. So they didn't put it in. Oh, wow. But it is, I mean, maybe one of the safer neighborhoods to live in. I wouldn't necessarily live in a Crip and Blood neighborhood, but an Italian mob neighborhood where everybody is. Now, I will say with some of the other organized crime groups, they don't have, you know, with some of the Russians, the Albanians, some of those other groups. Ms. 13 Some of those groups don't have the same values that the old Italians had.

[B]

Yeah. What was the most intimidating or scariest Mafia or crime syndicate that you infiltrated?

[A]

I worked the gangs, so I guess that might work. The Crips and the Blood. So again. And I was white, so it wasn't like I was socializing with them. I was just buying the drugs. They knew who I was. I was going down there buying drugs. One night I was going down at midnight. I had an old beat up pickup truck, my hair was long and greasy.

[B]

And your cover is just, you're a guy trying to buy drugs.

[A]

Well, I, I worked at a tire store in Boystown in Santa Monica. It's pretty much a gay community. So my storyline was that I was selling rock cocaine in the gay community. So that's why. So that's why when I say greasy, I'd have filthy fingernails, my hands. It's like I'm getting off work, changing tires all day and all this kind of stuff. And so I was going down there and buying it. But one night I was just sitting in the truck waiting for them to bring the drugs out from the car. And it was a drive by shooting that took place just about a couple houses up from where I was. And it's like, oh my gosh, this is real.

[B]

But, and so that case, the gang case, what neighborhood was that in California?

[A]

South Central. Los Angeles.

[B]

So that was in South Central?

[A]

Yeah. So it was Crips in the Bloods is what it was. It was kind of one of those situations that we had just finished up, the Mafia family case and it got tremendous publicity. I mean, it was front page. The LA Times, we essentially wiped out the LA Mafia. I mean, there are still some independent guys that would show up there, you know, somebody from Chicago that would come in or this guy would come back and force somebody. But there was no established family. This was the death knell for the LA family and it got huge publicity. Jim Henderson again just did a great case of the organized crime strike force of putting this together as, as they did in New York and Chicago and with some of the other cases that the Department of Justice put together. Well, our boss, Larry Lawler, who was one of the finest administrators I ever worked with, and there's only a handful of Those that I would even put in that category was having lunch with Daryl Gates, who was the chief of police or lapd. And he just said, man, you guys sure did a number on the mob. I wish we could do that to gangs. And he said, I'll send you a couple FBI agents. And so he came back from lunch that day, and I'm sitting down there doing paperwork at my desk, and I get a call from the secretary, said, Mr. Lawler would like to see you in the office. And I said, barb, what's this about? And she said, I don't know. I said, barb, I'm good for like five felonies a day. You know, if you give me a. Give me a heads up, I think I can probably come up with an excuse by the time I walk up to the 17th floor. And she says, I honestly don't think you're in trouble. And I said, okay. So I walk in, I walk into the office, and I said, yes, sir, what can I do? And he said, I was having lunch with Chief Gates today. I was like, oh, that's good. You know, what did you have? You know, you know, okay. And he says he'd like to. He'd like to tackle them, the gangs. Like we went after the mob, and I want you to do it. And I said, okay. And he said, you can pick a partner. And we had a young guy that just come on the squad. I mean, I was young, but he was a Naval Academy graduate. We had been Explosive Ordnance disposal. I know you had Jimmy Jones or Johnny Jones on your great interview, by the way. And I've done a lot of work with the combat wounded, so have a lot of respect for those guys. So Tom was a Naval Academy graduate, EOD and everything. And essentially I was able to give the same sales pitch that Lawlor gave me to Tom. So we were initially the first two FBI agents to work street gangs. And then we got part of a squad and everything. So we went down, worked with crash, the community Resources against street hoodlums. You know, everybody's got to have an acronym. So we worked with the CRASH unit. And for us, this was great because this was like real police work. Initially, we were just riding in patrol cars, we're stopping guys on the street, we're responding to drive by shootings and all that. And each night we would drive home and it was kind of like, okay, what do we do now? We got to do something. So we came up with this drug buy program. And at that time, this was. We started in 88 and they had just passed the modification to the drug laws. There was a huge problem in the inner city with crack cocaine. So you had powder cocaine and you had crack cocaine, and the gang members and a lot of people in the inner city were using the crack cocaine. This was before Hunter Biden started using it. I'm sorry, didn't want to get political. I'm not going to go there. I'm not going to go there. So essentially, and I think I have my figures right, five 50 ounces of powder cocaine was the equivalent of five grams of rock cocaine for punishment purposes. And 500 grams of powder cocaine, a half a kilo, was the equivalent of 50 grams of rock cocaine. So you could fit 50 grams of rock cocaine in your hand where a half a kilo, it was the same punishment. Well, I mean, I can understand the argument that it's draconian, but the idea was this is ruining the neighborhood. You know, this. This rock cocaine is ruining the neighborhood. And a rock could be the size of a baby tooth. We would. We would go in and you do searches and you'd find just little rocks. It just. But anyway, the punishment now it's like, okay, let's. We'll use this as our tool. It's a federal law. Congress once supported this, both sides. It was a bipartisan bill to support this. So we're going to. We're going to use. This is going to be our tool. We're not going to try to do a RICO case. We're not going to try to do a continuing criminal enterprise. So we. We got the money. We put in the proposal. We got the money to buy the drugs, the lapd, the crash. I worked with two cops that. Two of the best cops I ever worked with. Rick Record and Mike Pulley, two of the finest cops I ever worked with. One was white, one was black. I learned so much from them about street people, street justice that work in that inner city. Guy. We were rocking and rolling. But then we came up with this buy program and initially had a little bit of trouble finding a black undercover agent, because our black undercover agents are accountants and lawyers and didn't really get into this business to be a drug cop. And it was one night we had this older man that was the. The informant that worked for lapd and they used to pay him. I want to say it was five or twenty dollars a buy. I mean, it was a small amount of money. And so he would. He would essentially go in to the. To the rock house, buy the buy, come out, show them. That would Be their probable cause. And they go in and arrest it. And they'd seize a little bit of rock.

[B]

And this guy was. He was. He was an informant. So he was someone that was from the neighborhood?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He was just an older black man that was doing all this. So I got introduced to him and essentially I said, we'll pay you $50 to buy. But he ended up. One night. We had some issues that I don't necessarily need to get into, but one of our FBI undercover agents didn't show up. And he had a date that night and didn't show up. And the old man says, screw him and I can sell you. And I said, you can sell me? He said, yeah, I can sell you. I said, let's do it. So we went out and made our first buy together as the old black man, the young white guy. That makes no sense. And that's what started my reputation down there of being the white guy that was able to. That was making buys and nobody was getting popped and arrested. So we were making a series of buys. And now we get to the end when we're ready to wrap this thing up, and we arrest 13 members of the 74 Hoover Crips and the Backstreet Crips. Did we talk about this on the last interview, but where the one guy, Eli, says, you know, I figured the police be too stupid to send a cop.

[B]

Did you. Did you do all the cases with this guy?

[A]

No, no, I was. After. I was.

[B]

You went alone?

[A]

Yeah, I was by myself.

[B]

And did those situations ever get hairy? Were they ever a little sketchy?

[A]

Yeah, they were. Again, I. This wasn't like the Mafia where I'm taking them to lunch at Universal Studios. Right.

[B]

This is business only.

[A]

Go and get the business. Yeah, go in and get. And there was. There was one time, and again, most of these. I'm doing most of this at 11, 12 o'clock at midnight or, you know, midnight, so it's. It's dark. And the very first deal I did by myself, I bought 50 grams. I always tried to do, I think, 50 grams. We tried to do 50 grams. And I can't remember how much it was, but I paid the money and got the drugs. I paid the money and I go back and listen to tape and it's like there's no conversation. I don't know what I was thinking. But yeah, yeah, we. We have the deal. You know, it's my word against his, but it really didn't work. And I didn't have a camera or anything like that. So it was like, okay, we got to do better this next time. So next time I go down there, it's late at night. This kid comes up to the car. What you need, whitey? And I said, hey, get your ass back. But I need Eli. So he goes. And Eli comes out, he says, what do you want now? I said, whatever I needed, but it was $900 worth, is how much I knew that I needed. And again, I apologize. I can't even remember what the quantity was. So it's dark, and he and his buddy are counting the money, and they're going, 5, 10, 15. And they finally get to 700. And he goes, okay, wait a minute. You're short $100. I was like, actually, I'm short 200. But, yeah, so you tell me a hundred dollars. So I said, oh, I. I don't know. Okay. So I count out another hundred. Give it to me. He counts it again. You short another hundred dollars. I said, wait a minute. You just said, I short get out of the car. I was like, I don't think I'm getting out of the car at midnight. So I just. I threw him the hundred dollars, you know, a hundred dollar head. There. Are you happy now? Yeah. Yeah. Get your ass out of here.

[B]

So gave you the stuff?

[A]

Yeah, gave me. You know, I. I had the drugs, but. And he got his money. So that was. It was kind of one of those that I would always. When I would drive down there, I'd always have the gun in between my legs on the seat just so I could quickly reach it. But it. So those kind of situations were a little hairier. But again, I wasn't socializing with them, and they weren't looking to socialize. They were just looking to do business.

[B]

Hey, guys, we're gonna take a break really quick because we got camp updates. That's right. We have amazing stuff going on here at the campsite and all sorts of crazy things going on in history. 1941, Hitler took command of the German army. Whoa. 1997, Titanic premiered in the theaters. 1777, George Washington led troops into the winter quarters of Valley Forge. All of this stuff is fascinating. There's all these explanations for everything that's going on in our newsletter. That's right. That's where I learned all this. And I just dropped this information anytime I'm hanging out. Maybe you could do it. You go on a first date and you're talking to a girl, you're like, hey, did you know 1941, Hitler took over Germany today. Whoa. And she's probably like, that's you. You're an awesome guy, and you're an interesting dude. I appreciate you brought that up on our first date. You could be the most interesting person on every date, get laid easier, and make more friends if you subscribe to the newsletter. Not only that, I'm sure you've seen I've been wearing merch. I've been wearing sick brand new merch on episodes of flagrant. I'm sitting right next to 50 cents in this picture right here wearing brand new merch. And you're gonna get first dibs if you subscribe to the newsletter. That's right. You're gonna be finding out about all the merch. And on top of that, 20, 25, I'm going on the road. Mm. I'm gonna be touring all over the United States of America, Continentally, sorry, Alaska. But if you want to get first access to those tickets, go to the newsletter. Everything that's going on in the camp world, in my world and in our world is going on in the newsletter. S'more camp. Click on the link in the description below, and I'll see you there. Let's get back to the show. When did you do the case as a contract killer?

[A]

I did two contract killing cases. The first, I love this one because I got introduced to a lawyer who wanted his father killed and a client killed. And it was like, anytime you can take a lawyer down, I mean, that's really good.

[B]

But how do you even get on the case? How do you find a guy that wants to kill someone?

[A]

Again, how does that. You just advertise on the dark web? No, this was before the Internet. An informant had said. Had told his contact agent that this guy's looking for somebody to kill two people. And so they came to me and said, we need an undercover agent. You want to be a contract killer?

[B]

An informant.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

This doesn't seem like something you would do on a serial basis, right?

[A]

Yeah, no, I think that, and I'm not sure because I never met the informant, But I think it was, like, a client that this guy had that he was just. And the informant was a bad guy. So he was always trying to score points and put some money in, money in the law enforcement bank account so that if he gets jammed up, he can say, look, I cooperated with the FBI. I cooperated with the police. And so I think he was the one that came to his contact agent to say, this lawyer that I've been dealing with wants two people killed. And he talked to me about it. And so they got to this lawyer that. That I was the guy. And at that time, the FBI in Los Angeles had a seized boat. And I know nothing about boats. I have a kayak, you know, so. But we weren't going to meet on the kayak, so.

[B]

Would have been a way better scene.

[A]

Yeah, it would have been, yeah.

[B]

You two on a kayak just tipping over.

[A]

So we met on the boat and I remember there was a female agent that was attractive and I kind of had. I had her running around in a bikini and he gets on the boat and I wouldn't even know how to start the thing, but we're docked.

[B]

It's a big boat.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, well, it's 35 foot or 40 footer, I guess. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't.

[B]

And what is your cover and what's like the pretense of the meeting?

[A]

The pretense of the meeting is that I can get the job done. That I'm essentially, I'm a mercenary.

[B]

Meet me on my boat.

[A]

Yeah, meet me on my boat. I do stuff all over the world. And so the female agent, she's great because she's just kind of sunbathing and walking around and I think she brought us a beer or something like that and then just turned around and walked away. So he's. And he's not attractive, he's heavyset, but he's really. He's attracted to her, which he should be. And then we sit down and he's explaining what he wants done. And Mark, again, this makes no sense to you, it makes no sense to your audience. But he's explaining who he once killed. It's his father so he can collect the insurance money and it's one of his clients that he's mad about or owed him money or something. So I said, well, tell me on your dad, how much is the insurance policy? Because he wants to know how much I'm going to charge. And again, I don't remember the figures. And he told me what the insurance policy was. So I said I'd charge him a percentage of the insurance policy and. And that would be for both people. Well, he later went back to the informant and told the informant that he met him, that he met me and he really liked me because I had killer eyes.

[B]

Zero percent personality, that's what you need.

[A]

I said, that's why my wife was attracted to. Was the killer eyes.

[B]

Does he specify anything of why he wants them killed other than the money.

[A]

You know, to kill your dad for insurance? And I never. I didn't get into it with him.

[B]

This is not pertinent to.

[A]

Yeah, it. It didn't. It. It didn't matter in that particular case, so it wasn't important. And I do. See, there was. There was kind of a part of me that I don't. I don't want him saying, oh, he molested my daughter, you know? You know, and. And so. So that there's kind of like. Well, maybe there's jury sympathy, that I can understand this. So I'm gonna let.

[B]

You shouldn't have people kill, but that does muddy the waters.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, I. I don't really care why. You know, does he.

[B]

Does he specify, like, how to do it?

[A]

Yeah, he wanted him shot. And I. And this is the part where I'm saying, you don't believe it. I said, I'll do it, but I need you to bring me a clean gun. And he ended up bringing me an automatic weapon that. That. That was clean. And I. I think they had the serial numbers filed off and everything. And so he brings me there, which makes no sense. I mean, you're. You're dealing with a contract killer, and he wants the weapon. You know, he doesn't have his own. He doesn't have his own weapons. He can't get a clean gun. And so we got him on the gun charge, and we got him on the conspiracy to kill two people.

[B]

Did he give you more details as far as, like, oh, they'll be at this place at this time. This would be a good way to do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, do it.

[A]

On this day, he gave me more details. I. As I recall now. And again, I apologize for this. I wasn't sure you're going to ask this about this story, but I think on that particular case, you bring me the gun, and then we'll talk about the details kind of. Kind of deal. So then he did give me. He gave me names and addresses and, you know, brings me the gun. He brings me the names and addresses and. And, yeah, typically you would want to know, okay, where can I see them? You need to be away so that you have an alibi and all that. Wow. So that was the first one did.

[B]

You ever find out of. His father knew, obviously, afterwards.

[A]

Yeah, it all came down. And part of it is, by DOJ regulations, if. If we know that someone's out to kill you, we have to tell you, and it's stupid. Well, even if it's a mob guy, I mean, you know, if. Like. If, like, Paul Castellano, John Gotti says, I'm Gonna kill Paul Castellano. And we hear it on a wiretap. We have to go to John Paul Castellano and say, john Gotti is going to kill you.

[B]

I was just thinking about killing him also.

[A]

It's so crazy.

[B]

Oh, that's really interesting. And then what was the. The second case that you did as a contract killer?

[A]

Second case, I got introduced. We. We had an informant that knew that there was a guy that ran a strip club called the Jet Strip. It was a gentleman's club, now is the politically correct term, probably where you do your comedy act. I don't know exactly.

[B]

Highbrow places.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was near lax, Los Angeles Airport. So it was called the Jet Strip. And the guy that ran that had 10 kilos of cocaine that he was trying to move. And I had his name and his number, and I just called him. The informant didn't even introduce me. I just called him up and I said, hey, I met with so and so. And he said, you're looking to move some product, I'm ready to buy. So we had the meeting, and he never could come up with the 10 kilos. And he was kind of vague. And I thought, well, I didn't think that he suspected me, but it was just like, okay, you're not, you know, you're not a member of a cartel. This isn't. You want to move 10 kilos, but you're not sitting on 10 kilos, and you're hoping to broker this with somebody else. So he was never able to put the thing together. And that was. We backed off. I mean, first of all, we had enough clearly guilty people to go after. And if you can't come up with a product, we're not going to force you to do it. And it must have been. Let me back up. So when I was working gangs, we rolled a guy up as. Became an informant that I really liked. And again, John, another John. Everybody I seemed to know that is John. So John was just. I really liked him. He was kind of a big teddy bear. And at one point, I. I think when I met with. And during the drug deal, I introduced John in. In the drug deal because I was a producer of documentaries and I did a documentary on gangs, which Again, nowadays, if IMDb you find out Bob Bourne didn't do a documentary on gangs, but so I met John while I was doing this documentary, and he's in drugs, and I'm in drugs. And that's how we met. So John and I met with Michael, who ran the Jet Strip. And so we're talking, and then he couldn't come up with the drugs. And the reason I did with John, one, I like John. I was trying to give him credit for working off his beef. And if something happens, I can pay him. And that keeps him happy. And it. It. It keeps us. It has one more arrow in our quiver, one more informed in my stable. And if I can keep these. Keep these guys working and keep them happy. So we. We do that, nothing happens. It's. It's got to be a year later, and I get a. It's. It's opening day, and I'm at Dodger Stadium. There was a group of agents, we'd all always go to opening, Take leave and go to opening day at Dodger Stadium. And the game hasn't started yet. And I get a page, and I look down, and it's this guy's number that I recognize from the jet strip. And I find a pay phone. I call him, and he goes, hey, I. I need to talk to you. I want somebody killed. And I didn't have a recorder on, and I just said, hey, it's opening day. Nothing interferes with baseball. I'll call you tonight. And I hung up. And so I. I got home that night, turned on the recorder. You know, what's going on? He says, well, I. I need two people killed. Some. Some guy, he's an informant. He gave me up. The cops came and searched my house, and. And I think I. I want him. And either it was either Michael's old girlfriend or this guy's girlfriend, he wanted both these people killed. So I met with him, and it was stupid, but he explains who he wants killed, why he wants him killed. And I said, well, okay, this is what it's going to cost. Well, I can't afford that.

[B]

What number? Do you have any idea, like, what that could go for?

[A]

I think it was like 20,000, something like that, is what I told him. And he said, well, I just thought maybe you'd do it. And then, you know, I do something for you later on, sort of, you know, like the Godfather, you know, I will do you a favor.

[B]

And did you ever mention killing to him?

[A]

No, no, no. But he. See, he thought John being a gang member, he thought John would be the guy that he. That I could use to kill these two people.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So. And I'm not bringing John in on this. I'm not even sure. A year later, I'm not even sure if John was still around. So I said, well, I can do it, but it's going to cost you 20. And he's like, I don't have that. And then he calls me back and he said, I've got two people that are looking to move 20 kilos of cocaine. If I can set that up, can I. If I can set that up for you, will that count? And then I can use that money for the killings. So I said, yeah, you know, we might be able to do that. So he introduces. Ends up introducing me to two other people that are working for a Colombian. And I meet those two guys. It was interesting because Michael's a little weird. I mean, he's got a couple screws loose and just a little weird. But he makes the introduction. And at one point in. In Los Angeles, where they used to have the old studios, the old Fox studios, where they did the Carol Burnett show and a couple other shows that. That were there all in the family or no, Married With Children. So they did it. That's a studio right across from a Denny's. So I met the guy Noel, and he was. We had. Michael introduced me to Noel and Steele. The guy's first name was Steel. It's like, what a cool name, you know, Noel and Steele. So I met Noel and we were on the lot, obviously since 9 11. They're much more secure than they were then. But you would go in and there was a visitor's interest and an employee's entrance. And I just. I had done some work on the lot, undercover work, but that we don't have to get into, but we'd done some work there. So I just figured, what the heck, let me see if I can do it. So I just pull into the employee lot, wave to the guard. He just waves back and I drive on in. And I'm driving a BMW. And so I just drive on in. It's like, this will work. So I meet Noel over at the Denny's and I said, you know, let's just go back across the street. It's quiet over there. We can just talk over there. So drive through, wave to the guard. He waves me on through. We park, we go on to the set. And I want to say it was Carol Burnett. To the Carol Burnett Show. I think it was Carol Burnett. And we negotiate the 20 kilo coke deal. And at some point, this again is where I made a huge mistake. And I've pointed this out when I've talked to other agents, but this BMW wasn't my BMW. It was a seized BMW. And I had only used it for like two meetings. Well, up in the Corner of the room, of the. By the visor was a little microphone. And I didn't see it. And he sees it and he kind of goes off, you know, what is that? What is that microphone? I said, oh. He said, yeah, I said it. I said, there's a. This car used to have a phone system, and the damn mic never did work. And so I just. I ripped it out. And I was like, oh, what an idiot. You didn't look to check to see what was all in the. You know, all about the. The car and everything? And again, it was. I didn't freak out. I didn't, you know, start crying. I didn't run. I just. Oh, shoot. That is stupid. What is that up there for? And. And came up with. Came up with, yeah, the car used to have a phone system, and it never did work.

[B]

I mean, that's a pretty clever. That's a pretty clever line on. Off the top of your head.

[A]

Yeah, I was much more clever when I was undercover than I am now.

[B]

And he bought it, though.

[A]

Yeah, he bought it. So then eventually we end up doing partial deal. Ends up shooting in the Denny's parking lot. And I shoot Knoll and steel. Kind of give a new meaning to Grand Slam specials on the. On the Denny's menu. I. I don't think I'm allowed at that Denny's anymore.

[B]

Wait, wait, what do you mean? Like that. That was where it was supposed to happen.

[A]

Yeah. So we were going to. We were going to do the. The 20 kilo deal at the. At the Denny's restaurant.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And in the parking lot, and we had. We knew, for some reason, we knew who his Colombian source was. So we had a surveillance on the Colombian source, and they followed him to about three blocks from the restaurant. And the deal was. It was 400,000 for the 20 keys. I was supposed to have had that in a briefcase. I didn't have any money, but I was supposed to have it in a briefcase. I meet him at the Denny's restaurant. We're sitting in his car. He pulls out a cereal box, and there are one or two kilos of cocaine. I think two kilos of cocaine, and it's wrapped in duct tape. So when you're talking Colombian cocaine, it was usually in fiberglass and packaged much more professionally than what this was. Now, from a prosecutional standpoint, you don't care. I mean, 99% pure cocaine, it's the same punishment as 2% pure. So you don't really care. But. But as a drug buyer, as a drug Buyer. Yeah. And I'm.

[B]

You're pissed off.

[A]

I'm. I'm. I'm. You know, I don't like seeing it this way. You know, how do I know this is any good? You know what? And so he goes off on that. You know, this is great stuff. You know, it doesn't all come packed in fiberglass. And he's going on and on and on, and I do a little slit and act like I'm tasting it, which I'm not. And so I said, okay, let's go across the street. The money's across the street, or. No, the money's in my car, but let's take it across the street and finish it up over there. Because it's safer at the lock. Yeah, I want to do it over at Fox Studios because it's safer to do it over there than it is in the parking lot, so. Which we already had the arrest team set up because we thought they were bringing the 20 kilos. So we had the arrest team set up. So when I gave the signal, then they were going to come and arrest everybody.

[B]

You included.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what? I can't remember on that one, but one of my good friends in the FBI, Mike Kelly. And Mike, I hope you're listening, because I would like to. Call me. Would you? Because I'd really like to talk. We haven't talked in a long time, but Mike played quarterback at Harvard. Just one of the brightest guys you'd ever want to meet. And it was kind of like, you went to Harvard and you're in the FBI. I mean, you couldn't get a better job than that. But Mike was great, and he played baseball and football at Harvard, and I played baseball in college. And so we were kind of saying, well, what can be the sign? And he said, throw a baseball. I bet you can't hit the surveillance van with a baseball. And he said, that'd be the sign. And I said, okay, so when I throw the baseball at the surveillance fan, you guys come out and arrest everybody. So.

[B]

So what?

[A]

It was just, Mark, you got to screw with the people, so you just go with it. So I. I get out, and as I'm getting out of the. The car. His car, of. Of Noel's car, I grab the cereal box that have the kilos in it, and I'm walking away. And he goes, wait, now. And Steel comes racing toward me in his pickup truck. And their plan, they admit later, their plan was to run me over and take the 400 and rip me for the 400,000 and just drive away. And so he. Steele is racing toward me, and I end up shooting him. And then Noel. You can hear the tires in the. In the tape, you can hear the tires squealing. And he's trying to back me over, back. Back up over me. And then I shoot him. He drives off the lot. And then a couple blocks. A couple blocks. Comes. Comes out of his car, and it's in the bushes. And the cops find him bleeding. They both lived, but. So then I was always kind of proud of this because, you know, in TV you've shot somebody now you throw up and you cry, and you ask God for forgiveness and all this. And I had a Model 30, Smith & Wesson Model 36.5 shot. And I ended up firing three times. I didn't realize I'd fired three times, but I'd fired twice and hit two people. And they come. They take my gun away because they're going to begin the process. And I'm sitting there, and I said, look, I got to call Michael, and we need you to sit down. Give me a tape recorder so I can call Michael. So I end up calling Michael. And I said, hey, everything went down. It's great. Why don't you come and pick up the money? But I don't want to do it here in the parking lot. Let me meet you three blocks up. And we set up a location where we were going to meet.

[B]

And I'm sorry, Michael is.

[A]

Again, Michael is the strip bar that introduced me.

[B]

That he wants the people killed.

[A]

So he. Yeah, that one of the people killed. But now he's going to get the proceeds from this drug deal. And then I'm going to kill the people for him because he'd set up this great deal for me. Well, mark, the helicopters, you got the newscopters overhead. You've got. You've got the cops that have brought out evidence tape. They've got the parking lot at the Fox studios. At the Denny's parking lot, right? Yeah, at the Denny's Point. They got it off. And I'm sitting there, and I've called him up. And Michael drives straight past. He's not even looking over. He drives straight past. And I tell one of the other, I said, there goes Michael. And so the cops get on, and they end up arresting him. So now they arrest the Colombian, they arrest Michael, they arrest Steel and. No. And we end up with the Colombian. We go to trial with him. I think the other three must have pled out. I'm pretty sure they did. Yeah. I'M confident they pled out because, again, it was. It's all on tape. I mean, there's not. How do you combat that as a defense counsel? And the Colombian, he's on trial, and I'm sitting here, and it's a jury trial, and this was really interesting. It's a jury trial, and at one point, these three Colombians come and are sitting in the back of the courtroom. And the one guy, as I'm testifying puts like, a finger to his head like a gun and is pulling the trigger as. As I'm testifying, and he's. And he's looking at me. So at one point, the judge calls a. A recess, and I just. I get off the stand and I walk over to the defense. Counselor, do you mind if I talk to your client? What do you mean? I said, I. I need to talk to him. And he said, well, I need to be present. I said, that's fine. I said, you can be present. I said, you know, I can't remember the guy's name. Jose Cano or something like that. And I just said, hey, I don't know who these three guys are in the back, but you better get him out of there. I said, you're going down, and you're going down hard. And I got a lot of friends in prison. I know that's hard for you to believe, but I got a lot of friends in prison, and they are going to mess you up. And so the lawyer says, you get them out of this courtroom. And so the three guys left. But what was so funny in the trial? I was a Marine. I do swear like a Marine. I've tried to be clean on your show, which I know sometimes your guests don't have to be, but I'm trying to fight my urge. And we're playing all these tapes in court, and Noel is every other word. He's dropping the F bomb. And we're playing these tapes in court. And at one point, the prosecution said, I have one more tape to play. And I tried not to swear if I could help it, because I think that my. I always tell agents, think that your grandmother's on the jury because you're going to get these little old ladies that they're going to be offended by your actions as much as they're offended by the other guy. So you, you know, you need them on your side. And so prosecution, the assistant United States Attorney, stands up and says, we have one more tape to play. And the judge goes, I'm sick of these tapes. Everybody's swearing in the tape. And one of the jurors pipes up and he goes, no, the undercover agent hasn't sworn yet. And it was like.

[B]

Backed you up?

[A]

Yeah, backed me up. But you know, a juror doesn't talk to a judge. You're talking to God without the intermediary here. But I always kind of laugh that it was. They were paying attention.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And of course they convicted him.

[B]

So when the guy's threatening you with his hand up to his head, did that freak you out at all?

[A]

You know, not really. I mean, I guess, you know, I didn't cry on the stand.

[B]

But you walked out of that courtroom with your head high and straight to.

[A]

Your car and went down to the, to the locker where we had to check our weapons. Got my gun out, made sure it was loaded before I walked to the car. But yeah. Oh, it was just.

[B]

How many other times did you have to use your gun during your career?

[A]

That was it.

[B]

That was the only time.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, obviously I've drawn it a lot of times, but my very first arrest, well, my first was a bank robber running out of a bank. But my second, my first really big arrest in the FBI. Kind of a long story, but it was another agent, another first office agent over kind of rookies. And we caught a guy that had. That had been a fugitive. He had killed. He had robbed the jewelry store, kidnapped the owner of the jewelry store, threw her off a 70 foot cliff, and she lived to identify him. So he was. Don't know if he was convicted or he was just. Anyway, he was a fugitive and we happened to find him and it was stupid, something I should have never done. But we catch him driving his car out of this underground garage and I jump in front of him with my gun drawn and freeze, FBI. Cause he had said he would never be taken alive. And I just said, freeze, FBI, using my marine command voice. And he stopped the car. I was like, that was kind of stupid. He should have run me over and said, I want to see hands. Throw the keys out. I want to see hands. And then I walked up to him and I stuck my gun in my ear. In his ear. And my adrenaline is flowing and it's going like that in his ears. So again, Reuben and I were rookie agents and this guy was a major fugitive that had been a lot of different jurisdictions were looking for. And Reuben and I just, with dumb luck, found him and arrested him. Well, then the A team shows up and they're interviewing him. And eventually I walk in and the guy's cuffed Sitting at the dining room table. At his dining room table. Because they're interviewing him in his apartment while they're searching the apartment. And I walk in and he goes, that's the son of a bitch who almost shot me. But it was kind of one of those. I'm sure it was similar to what you do the first time you went on stage. It's like, am I ready for this? Is this really what I should. You know, you're so nervous, and it's.

[B]

Like you just black out.

[A]

You did it. And it's like, yes, I belong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And that was. For me, that was early in my career, but was kind of that epiphany that, yep, you can do this. You know, I didn't wet my pants. I. I didn't run away. I didn't cry. I'm capable of. Of being an FBI agent. So that was. And that was within a few weeks of. Of my career. And it's like, yep.

[B]

Was there a specific person or an individual that was the scariest criminal you ever had to. Had to come across?

[A]

Y. I didn't arrest him or anything. And this probably isn't going to mean much to any of your viewers or listeners. His name was Milton Parness, and he was one of the first people ever convicted of a rico, of RICO Corrupt Organizations Act. And he came out to Los Angeles. We had an informant that. Oh, that. We don't even want to get into that guy. But Milton was in his office and was really mad at Mark and was threatening him and everything.

[B]

So Mark is the informant?

[A]

Mark is the informant. So I was there kind of to protect Mark, but not as an FBI agent. I was there as kind of Mark's friend. And Milton came in, and he was an older man. I mean, he was probably well into his 60s, but he just had this aura of fear, and he just kind of stared through you. And it's funny when I think back that I don't know why he got me compared to all the other people that I met. I mean, Robert. I did. Robert Salas, the acting head of the Mexican Mafia. I mean, it did. The mob guys we just talked about didn't. Didn't really present that. The. The gang members that I've dealt with, the. The Russian organized crime figures, the. The Chinese criminal syndicate, none of those guys got me like Milton Parness. And Milton, if you're listening, give me a call.

[B]

Is he still out there?

[A]

I don't. I'm sure he's dead by now.

[B]

Did he get arrested?

[A]

No, not. Not in our Case he and Mark didn't want to. Mark had so many issues. He didn't, he didn't want him prosecuted. He just wanted me there to protect them. Mark had kind of screwed them on some financial deals and I mean, they were mob guys or they organized crime figures and associates and screwed a lot of guys. And it's, it's too long a story to get into.

[B]

Is that the only time you crossed paths with Milton?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And there was the one time and you were like, this guy is the real deal.

[A]

I even, I remember walking away and telling, telling another agent, I said, this guy, this guy just scares me. I don't know why. He just scares me. Yeah, that's so it. And I'm not trying to come off as cool or super brave, but you've heard my stories. And it's like if this guy put off that aura, there must have been something about him because some of these others didn't.

[B]

Yeah, I'll take your word for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now just to end, can you tell me about the Mexican Mafia and how you took them down?

[A]

Yeah. And then it was really, it was Robert Salas. So it was just one member of the Mexican Mafia. It wasn't the whole family or a gang or anything like that.

[B]

And where were they? What kind of crime were they involved with?

[A]

Los Angeles drugs. In California, there were four prison gangs that were spawned in the California prison system. The Aryan Brotherhood, which were white people. I guess you figured that one out. The Mexican Mafia, they were Mexicans. You probably figured that one out. The Nuesta Familia, which was also a Mexican gang. And then the Black Guerrilla Family. So Those were the four in the 70s, 80s and 90s, those were the four biggest prison gangs that were in the California penal system. Ironically, Joe Morgan was the head of the Mexican Mafia, but really wasn't Mexican. And he only had one leg. So he was Peg Leg, his street name was Peg Leg. But he was the head of the Mexican Mafia, but he was in prison. And Robert Salas was his number two guy and he was head. He was on the outside. So he kind of ran things when he was out of prison. When Robert was out of prison, he ran things. Really good looking guy. I'll tell you a funny story about him, but he was a good looking guy. But I had an informant that had. We had worked a big international heroin case that started out of Canada and we were doing it out of la. I was the undercover agent, but the informant that I used in that case was a female. The Canadian dealers, the Heroin dealers put out $100,000 contract on the informant. So we were going to move her into the Witness Protection Program. I really liked Helen, and she just recently passed away, but she. She. She was a nice lady, but she was a lady of the evening. She was a hooker. She was a highline hooker. And she. She knew all the Canadian drug dealers, many of the Canadian drug dealers, and was big into the trade in Southern California. And she ended up becoming an informant. I talk about it in my book, how. How that came about. And she introduced me to Darryl, and we ended up taking Darryl down and two of his associates, a very major operation that they were the biggest distributors of China White heroin in Canada. So the Canadians were so happy when we took him down, but he put out $100,000 contract on Helen. And before Helen went into the Witness Protection program, she had been Robert Salas boyfriend. And so we just had some real issues with the Daryl Simpson case. And Helen, as we were about to kind of wrap that up and put her into the program, she said one day, she said, bob, would you like to do Robert? And I said, oh, Helen, you know, you've been through so much. You've done so much. And she said, no, you and Debbie have done so much for me. Because there was a day you should probably have my wife on the show. But the Witness Protection Program is not tv, where they snatch you out of your podcast studio, they cut your hair, they shave, they give you a new nose, and, you know, and all this. And then they move you down to Laredo, Texas, or something like that. It doesn't work like that. So we pulled her out. She was staying in a motel close to where we lived because we were waiting for the marshal service to get all their paperwork together, and it was taking about three weeks. There's $100,000 contract on this woman's life, and her and her son are staying in this motel and everything. And I can't remember what holiday it was, whether it was Memorial Day, fourth of July, whatever, but we were having a church picnic, and Debbie takes our two kids at the church picnic, and I show up a little bit later with the hooker and her son to the church picnic and our church. Everybody just knew that she had had some problems, and they just welcomed her with open arms. And. And she talked about that, how nice everyone was and how much she enjoyed that church picnic. But I was like, you took the hooker to the church picnic? So anyway, Debbie, Helen was so pleased with that. So she agrees to introduce me to Robert Salas and Robert Spoke very broken English. The first time we met was at a. A fast food restaurant down in Santa Monica, which is on the beach in California. I told him I was a stunt coordinator. I always have a Hollywood. Some Hollywood thing here. I told him I was a stunt coordinator. And I called my buddy at Universal. I said, where are you guys shooting today? And they said, oh, down at Santa Monica. So I told Robert this is where I was going to be. You pull into the parking lot. I just badged my way into the parking lot. I'm there. You can, you know, with Hollywood, with the films, they got all the trucks and all the cameras and the lighting set up, so it looks really important. And he's meeting me just a block down the street. So I just. I just. He sees me walking off the lot, coming across the street and meeting with him. And we talk and we agree he's got. He has access to uncut heroin. I mean, and this. This stuff was close to 100% pure. So we set up the. We negotiate about doing that and setting up the. For that deal. Later on, we have a second meeting in a downtown place in Los Angeles. It's an outdoor restaurant. And we sit down and I think I had videotape. I know I had surveillance agents. But he starts talking, and I get up, I apologize, I get up, and I move on to the other side of him. And I said, I'm sorry, but I said I did a fire gag and blew out my eardrum. I can't hear out of this ear. So this is my good ear. So when I couldn't understand him, I mean, it was like, how much an.

[B]

Ounce holding the recorder.

[A]

Yeah, so I'd keep getting him to repeat.

[B]

Oh, wow, that's really clever. That is really good.

[A]

He bought off on this. So then we have a third meeting at the Bonaventure Hotel. And I can't remember the name of the movie, but it's the Glass Elevator. And I want to say it's a Bruce Willis movie where they're shooting up the guys in the glass elevator and everything. So. So we're meeting there where they're with the glass elevator and everything. And I have a female agent that I asked. She was new to the squad. And I just said, hey, just cover me. And I don't need you to shoot me. I just. Or to shoot anybody. I just. We just need you to write up a report that you observed this meeting going down. Well, if you and I were going to lunch, I'm going to prefer to have my back to the wall so that I can see everything that's going on. But when you're undercover, a lot of times you let the bad guy have the wall and you don't see what's going on behind you, because if you try to make a play for it, it's like, why are you doing this? So I would often let the bad guy have that Wild Bill Hickok seed.

[B]

Or just pick whatever.

[A]

Yeah. So I would let him. And we're talking and we're discussing this drug deal, this heroin deal, more details and everything. And all of a sudden, he goes, goodbye. And I turned around, and it's the fricking female FBI agent. And I said, what's that all about? He said, I don't know, but that cheek has been staring at me the whole time we sat down here, and I looked and I looked back, and I said, you know what? You look like Erik Estrada. I bet she thought you were Eric Estrada. I'm almost surprised she didn't come over and ask for an autograph. He goes, really? You think I look like Eric?

[B]

And I was like, that's a good line.

[A]

Golly.

[B]

You know, this new girl almost blew it for you.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. But then eventually, we. We arrest Robert and. And two other people on. On the heroin deal.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. He got. He got 15 years. That was one of the greatest lines in court. Judge Laughlin Waters, the defense was trying to make up. We could probably do another whole podcast on the. On this other case that resulted in 9th Circuit Court of Appeal decisions and all this kind of stuff, but they're trying to raise the same arguments in this. In the Robert Salas, Rick DeSantis case about my conduct. Gross governmental misconduct is what they're trying to argue. And it involved Helen introducing me, because Helen was a hooker. And so they were making a big deal out of the fact that she was a hooker. It doesn't make sense, and you don't want to even go into all the details, but Laughlin Waters has got the glasses lower on the nose, and he looks down. He goes, counsel, when the scene is set in hell, don't expect angels to be singing in the choir. He's like, yes, that's a bug. That's a line. That's a cut print, you know, And. And so they. Those two guys got convicted.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But. But Salas was the acting hat, and so many guys, so many different agencies had gone after him. And just. I even. It was kind of one of those. Some other agencies called me up and said, I can't believe you did him, you know, that was great. And so that always makes you feel good when your peers are kid. Yeah, yeah. When you appear, it's not. I don't need another letter from some administrator congratulating me. But when a peer says something like that, I didn't bring this picture, but I got an anonymous picture in the mail and I think I know who it was, a sheriff's deputy who sent it to me. But it's a picture of Robert naked on a bed and it was something that they took in prison that he sent to some girlfriend that they seized. No, but I was like, okay, so how many people have a picture of the acting head of Mexican mafia? That's.

[B]

What an insane life. I mean, this is just so crazy. Thank you so much for sharing all these stories, brother. I really do appreciate this.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Let's do this again.

[A]

See you next time.