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- [00:00]
A
You've witnessed satanic rituals?
- [00:02]
B
Well, they cut the throat, filled up a glass with, like, blood, and they're passing it around and we're all drinking it.
- [00:10]
A
This is Scott Payne, former FBI undercover who infiltrated and took down neo Nazi groups, biker gangs, and Mexican cartels. And today he's going to tell us how he drank goat's blood in a satanic ritual with Neo Nazis. How he almost died getting strip searched at gunpoint by biker gang members.
- [00:30]
B
In this case is the night before we did the deal, I got pulled down to the basement and stripped at gunpoint. Problem is not getting stripped in the basement at gunpoint when they're looking for a wire. The problem is being wired to the hilt. When they're stripping you at gunpoint and looking for the wire, are you wired? Oh, yeah.
- [00:45]
A
And how he negotiated with Mexican cartel members to free innocent children. Scott is an absolutely amazing storyteller. He's a good old country boy from South Carolina, and he infiltrates the whites, as he says it. I absolutely loved this conversation. He is just an absolute amazing dude. And I think you guys are really going to enjoy hearing all about the ethics FBI undercover world. So sit back, maybe pour yourself a cold glass of dry whiskey, and welcome to camp Scott Payne. How are you, sir?
- [01:22]
B
I'm absolutely wonderful. Thank you. This morning.
- [01:25]
A
Yeah, man. Thank you so much for joining me here in this wonderful tent.
- [01:29]
B
Nice.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah, it's awesome. I appreciate it.
- [01:31]
B
I like the vibe.
- [01:31]
A
Yeah, this is going to be fun. This is. This is going to be an awesome. An awesome conversation. I'm genuinely a huge fan of your work. I feel like you have. You have just a really interesting perspective with everything that you've done. Infiltrating neo Nazi groups and militias, the outlaws, the pagans, you know, just some of the ones that come to mind. We're going to break down all those cases. You've witnessed Satanic rituals, Participated.
- [01:55]
B
Participated.
- [01:56]
A
Participated in satanic rituals. I mean, over two decades in the FBI, in the undercover unit. Just a fascinating career, genuinely. And I'm really excited to get into all of it. But I just want to start. How did you get into undercover work in the FBI?
- [02:11]
B
Good question. I, you know, I go back, I get asked this a decent amount, and I try to go back because I was a cop first, and I say a real cop first because if you're a real cop in uniform patrol, it's different than being a federal agent. There's a different. It's like a group thing. You know what I mean? It's kind of clickish I'll give you an example. I'm here in New York City and I'm a new agent. And then I'm with an NYPD task force, officer assigned. We're at some precinct. And he goes, hey, this is Scott. He's on the squad. He's FBI. And it's like, how you doing? And he goes, no, no, no, no, no. He was on the job before. And they go, oh, how you doing? So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna throw that right out there.
- [02:50]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [02:51]
B
So when I was a cop, I mean, I guess I was always fascinated with any undercover type book I read. And I'm not a huge reader. A lot of crayon and pictures involved, but I. Big fonts.
- [03:04]
A
Yeah, you need a picture book.
- [03:05]
B
Yeah, undercover picture book.
- [03:06]
A
I could do this one.
- [03:06]
B
I can do articles. They're quick. And then any movie as cheesy as it could have been, I mean, I mean, you know, Stone Cold with Brian Bosworth, beyond the Law, Charlie Sheen, anything like that. And I love motorcycle stuff. So at the sheriff's office, I made. I was in uniform patrol for three years, and then I got bison, narcotics investigator. So at that point you go to the South Carolina. Back then you'd go to the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy. You do a one week certification course, and you become certified and undercover. So it started there. I mean, I think the first dope buy I did was a $20 crack rock, and I was probably already 270. I did not look like I was on crack, you know, unless I just started. I fell off the wagon.
- [03:52]
A
Yeah, I'm trying to slim down. I look cracking Ozempic. All right, that's. That's. Do you guys. Do you have any Ozempic back there? I'll take some of that.
- [03:58]
B
I know, right? It's a great diet plan. All of a sudden I have energy and I'm not hungry anymore. Yeah, it's great. So, and then advice. You're ordering up prostitutes, you know, because it was, you know, illegal in South Carolina. So I got the bug right there. And then when I got in the bureau, I knew I wanted to be an undercover agent. It's just how to get in that door. And then I always pictured myself at some point being an undercover on some kind of a biker case. And it ended up happening. So.
- [04:27]
A
Wow.
- [04:27]
B
Divine intervention if you me, you know, that's what I believe. So, yeah.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah. With all due respect, you do have biker gang undercover energy. You know what I mean? Like. Like, I feel like if you walked into to the Hoover Building. You're like, all right, I'm going to go undercover. They're not going to put you necessarily.
- [04:41]
B
With like, I'm not in Wall Street. No, I would joke, I would joke with them. I'd be like, hey, because you got to understand, at least for the umpteen years I was a part of the undercover program. You know, we, we. Your, your workers, I guess. Let me, I'll explain it this way. If you take 11,000 or so agents and you say, how many of them are certified as undercovers? It gets down to about 600.
- [05:03]
A
Really?
- [05:04]
B
If you say, I mean, the certification process is really tough. It's two weeks, two week certification course, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Some say it's the toughest. I usually say it's probably the second toughest to our HRT selection, which is very physical with sleep deprivation. That's your, that's your SWAT on steroids. Basically, it's a hostage rescue team based out of Quantico. We have former Navy SEALs, former Green Berets that come in the bureau and they go right there. But it's hard to get certified. So now you say, okay, let's say you got 600 certified agents. How many of them have been a primary undercover on one undercover case? Well, it dwindles down big time. When you say, how many of you have been a primary undercover on more than one, but less than five. It gets even smaller. When you get over five and especially 10, you're probably down to a solid, at least in my time. Solid 50, 50 or so agents that everybody knows because you go, oh, this is the, this is the guys that are guys and gals doing the international terrorism. But we meet because we come back to the undercover school and help put it on and stuff. I mean, we had the, we had the big black gang bangers, we had the biker looking dudes, we had the accountants. We got foreign. We got this, we got all sizes and shape. It's the most diverse unit I've ever been a part of.
- [06:23]
A
Yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense, right, because you need the type of like cultural and even ethnic diversity in order to infiltrate these groups.
- [06:30]
B
And what does the FBI work? Everything. I mean, we had title 18 and title 21. Authority. So guns. Yeah, I mean, you name it. National security. So, yeah, I'm not, I may there. We used to say, hey, you're the right undercover, wrong case, or it's the right case, wrong undercover, however you want to say it. But sometimes mine, mine didn't fit. Sometimes, you know, I didn't nobody bit and I'm. Time for me to bail out, right?
- [06:56]
A
What's up, camp family? What's up, campers? Two big announcements. Don't skip this. Two massive announcements. The merch store is back open. That's right. Camp goods is back in stock. We got these hats that I'm wearing right now. I've been rocking them both on here on flagrant. I've been wearing them on stage. We got a bunch more hats like the ones behind me. You can see them all here on the website. We also got some shirts. Oh, man. What is this one right here? Come on now. Come on now. Camp gear for all terrain. We got some other ones. What is this one right here? Oh, this one's beautiful. This one might be one of my favorites. The colors. The colors are absolutely crazy. This is Camp Gagnon vintage wisdom across the globe. Come on now. We got all that and more on the store. We also got these sick mugs right here. You might have seen me maybe sipping from one of these in some of the recent episodes. These are sick. They are all available on the website campgoods Co. Check it out. Link is in the description. And by supporting the merchandise, you are obviously supporting the show. You're supporting me, and you're obviously, you know, supporting all the amazing people that make the show happen, like Christos, who is currently throwing me T shirts from underneath this desk here. So please check that out. Additionally, I'm on the road. That's right. I'm doing my one hour of standup comedy. Some. Some of the. The greatest jokes ever written. Okay, that's not true. But they are my jokes and I wrote them. I'll be in Portland, Maine on April 27th. And that one I'm, I'm doing with Joey Avery. You know Joey Avery, a friend of the show. He sat across from me many times and I'm explaining some things to him. And he might be my dumb friend, but he is a brilliant stand up comedian. And we will be there in Portland, Maine. If you are in these areas, please come out. And we're adding a ton of dates all through the summer. So check out my website, themarkagnon.com for all tour dates and updated info. Come hang out with me. I talk to every single person after the show. If you want to kick it with me, maybe have a drink, I'll be there and I will see you guys on the road. Now let's get back to the show. Yeah, can you talk to me about that certification process? Because it feels like, you need to have a lot of things to line up in order to be a good undercover. You can't just look the part. Oh, you can't just have been a part of, you know, organized crime in the past. Or, you know, like, I think you need to have a real aptitude for pressure and stress. So how do they test that within the bureau?
- [09:01]
B
So I won't give away everything because not so much a tradecraft. Well, it could be considered a tradecraft issue, but, you know, if somebody wants to be in undercover, if you give away the scenarios and then how to do them, but they probably still mess them up because you just get so tired and you get freaked out, and I. It's tough to say. The first thing I want to say when I hear you say something like that, because I've heard it so much is, like, from my friends, my peers, mentors, people I've mentored at the office, where they're like, man, I couldn't do what you do. But there I am with a beard down in my nipples and, you know, 280 and tattooed. Ride motorcycle. Yeah. You know, and that's me. I didn't do that for a case. That's just me. But I would ask them, like, so what do you do? What's your background? And they go, oh, man, I was an accountant before I became an FBI agent. Really? Where? I was in Canada with Disney. Okay, you do you. You come in here right now. I will bring you in. We'll just give you a different name. It's not that easy. We have to be certified. But I'm saying I could bring you in to the group of bad people that I've infiltrated, and you be you. You just be the accountant. But we're going to twist it a little bit and talk about. I want you to talk like an accountant because I don't know what the hell you're talking about. But when you leave, it's real. It just looks. And that's the thing. You won't. You have to be as real as you can be. So as far as getting certified, I think I got certified in 2002 with the FBI. I started role playing at the school in 2003 and teaching somewhere after that. Started teaching at the school as well. Up until I retired, and I've never seen 100% graduation, you get 20 slots. You'll have, like. You'll narrow it down to all the applicants. You'll narrow it down. Or candidates, you'll narrow them down to, like, 40. So you've got 20 as backup, but you got the 20 you're picking for the school. But if somebody bails, you can fill those. And after that, once the school started, there's no filters. I mean, you. If you get. If you don't pass and you get sent home, you get sent home. That doesn't mean you're a bad agent. You could be the best case agent in the world. You could be the best firearms instructor, best SWAT operator. You just didn't. You didn't pass the certification process for undercover.
- [11:12]
A
Yeah. Is there a lot of psychological testing? Absolutely. Is it primarily psychological?
- [11:16]
B
Well, there's a couple of ways to answer that. If you are an active undercover, you have to be mandatorily psychologically assessed in the FBI. The unit safeguard was created by Joe Pistone, my mentor and I like to say, friend. You know, Donnie Brasco, the Donnie Brasco movie and all that. Joe Pistone. Joe. I'm pretty sure it's when he came back in the Bureau under Louis Free, because he left for a while. He came back in, and Steve Ban was an FBI agent, but he was also. His background was a clinical psychologist. They created this, this safeguard process because your type A personalities were, you know, your warrior mentality. Whatever, we're going to get it done. We won't say no. We're gonna. And we'll ignore red flags. We'll ignore. Like, as an undercover coordinator, I might look at you and say, hey, you're not going in there. It's too dangerous. But in the back of my head, I'm probably thinking, but I could, right? You know, and that's not being cocky. It's just actually being dumb. You know, it's. But that's, that's that mentality. So you need that kind of oversight. And, you know, I've butted my heads, My butted heads with the unit throughout my career, but on a few occasions. But that was more of a, I think, a management and. And miscommunication thing. But I'll tell you, I totally believe in the process because you basically get psychologically attested on test, and then you sit down with a psychologist, clinical psychologist, and then after that meeting, you'll sit down with somebody like me or just say, Pistone, a senior undercover who's, you know, you've heard the term, you can't bullshit a bullshitter. Well, you can't UC A uc. We use it undercover. UC as a verb. Right? So. And it's really good. And sometimes you need to be put on a break, and sometimes you. They need to step in to Save your family, you know, things like that. But what happened over the years is you had this specialized unit in the FBI that does psychological assessments. And now you've got this whole other branch that's looking at crimes against children where they're like, man, these, these agents and task force officers that are staring at these photos and videos all day. They should probably be psychologically assessed. Well, who should do it? Well, we've already got safeguard. So now that gets packed on the safeguard you've got. Hey, we got people on long, long term surveillance where they're living away from their homes, they need to be. And everything gets so they get it, they get inundated big time. But as far as the testing process goes, you just. Man, my mind are psychology. Two more classes. I'd had a double major. Oh, wow. And I never thought that I would see. When I say I've seen people nut out, I mean I've seen people nut out. And it's simply from, is from sleep deprivation. And I like to put it like this. When I'm teaching or training every week, I'm pretty regimented. Most humans are. Right. If I'm working my normal job and my job is, has normal hours, I'm going to get up about the same time every day. I'm going to work out about the same time every day. Dinner, bed, bathroom, whatever. But can you take that and flip it upside down and sideways to where you're not getting your quality sleep, you're missing the gym workout, you're eating crappy food, if any at all. Can you do that for several days? And then I have an adverse impact on you and that's. You've seen some that just, just break.
- [14:44]
A
Yeah.
- [14:44]
B
And I would have never known it. I mean, one of the people was somebody I was on SWAT team with. I didn't work with them as an agent, but I was on SWAT team with them. But when they got to the UC school.
- [14:53]
A
Yeah.
- [14:53]
B
And I was like, wow. And we, we flipped the script and by day three or four, it was, it looked like he'd been by a tribe of, I don't know. He walked in, zipper undone, shirt tail hanging out, hair all. I'm like, yeah. Are you okay?
- [15:08]
A
Yeah. I think it's even important to note the guys going through the certification process. These, these are not just like random dudes off the street. They're like, I want to be undercover. These are people already with prior experience, prior training. These might be some of the toughest guys, you know, within like their military unit or within, you know, Law enforcement.
- [15:22]
B
In their skill set. Yeah. Because they're already an agent. You can't just come in and be a brand new agent and go to the UC school.
- [15:26]
A
Right. So these are some of the best of the best. And even they are getting weeded out by the process.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah, if. Yeah, if you want to look at it like that. For sure. Yeah. I mean, all shapes and sizes.
- [15:39]
A
Yeah.
- [15:39]
B
You know, and through the years, you know, the certification process changes. There might have been things that were done in the past that could have been improved, and maybe somebody did slip through the cracks and get certified, but they really didn't work.
- [15:54]
A
Right.
- [15:54]
B
It would come out when they work, knock on wood. As far as I know, I retired in June of 21. No certified FBI undercover has ever been lost.
- [16:04]
A
Really?
- [16:05]
B
Yeah.
- [16:05]
A
Wow. I mean, so, yeah, the process is tried and true. Yeah, I mean, that's. That's remarkable.
- [16:10]
B
And that's the whole thing. It's just like tactics. I mean, I'm a tactical guy, but you go out on the range and you. They say you bleed on the range so you don't die in the street. We're doing all kinds of drills and stuff, but you need. For the undercover world, you got to do that from a, like a what if kind of standpoint.
- [16:25]
A
Right.
- [16:26]
B
Or go to the school and role play and stuff like that.
- [16:28]
A
So now if you interview a guy, he went through a bunch of the process and he's. He's meeting with you. Do you have a pretty good aptitude now to be able to assess someone within a 20, 30 minute conversation that they could be an undercover? Like, do you feel like you have the ability to see the potential?
- [16:43]
B
I would say yes to a certain extent. Because some people, like I said the SWAT guy, you don't know until you see them under that pressure. I would have never guessed, you know, somebody with that kind of a background who I've seen in stressful situations. You look at them at this use undercover school four days in, and you're like, oh, my gosh, man, they are done. And it could be. It could be anything. Maybe it's a bad time for them at their home. Maybe they're not, you know, doing whatever, but, yeah, it's tough. And then, like, you were. We were starting to joke earlier. I'm like, I would always joke with them. I'm like, hey, why don't you give me one of those Wall street gigs? You know, because you see me now, right? And they'd be like, my nickname was Big Country. And they're like, no. And I'm like, I'm like, I could be like an old tycoon. I could be like, pull up with a boss hog car horns on and be like, buy sale. And they're like, no. If I ever got to nice places, I was probably just muscle for some mafia guy standing over in the corners, not saying nothing.
- [17:40]
A
Yeah, you in a button down shirt. It looks like just like a Halloween costume or something. Like the buttons are all pulling apart, arms are busting out of the seams. Yeah, I wouldn't buy it, but that's. That's really cool, bro. So you go through the certification process, and then what are the first couple of cases you're getting assigned on and then when are you really getting to, like, long term cases?
- [17:58]
B
So that's. That. It's a case by case basis.
- [18:01]
A
But for your.
- [18:02]
B
But for your experience or for me, I was already doing undercovers in the bureau before I got certified. Because I landed a case, a guy, it got me transferred out of here. That's the classified one I can't talk about. But I was assigned here in New York City, and then I went undercover and I became the primary before being certified. It helps. It kind of helps bump you up to the front of the line to get certified. But the undercover role I was doing was such a crappy job. Not a lot of people who were certified wanted to sign up for it. I mean, you're working straight third shift for a cheesy. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't cakes and pies by any means, but it got me transferred out. I got me transferred to the San Antonio division.
- [18:44]
A
Okay.
- [18:45]
B
So I was already doing that. And then it's. I mean, it's anything. It could be word of mouth. It could be you. I would have loved to been in a division where I could get a lot of work, like a New York City or, you know, the big Northeast or something. Miami, where I could do a lot of cases in a big metropolitan area where you don't have. Have a. As much of a chance to. To be found out. You know what I mean? Like, you're. There's so many people here.
- [19:11]
A
Yeah, you can kind of fall in the fold a little bit.
- [19:13]
B
I would have loved to build up a lot of experience and then go back to the school and bring that experience. That didn't work for me. I was a. I was a white guy with no foreign language skill set. And I just called every. Every two weeks. I think I called the undercover unit and be like, hey, y'all got anything for A redneck with no foreign. I mean, no foreign language, you know, anything for big country. And I just kept hounding, and then I got invited back to the school, and that's when people started seeing me because, you know, again, mentors, peers and people I've mentored. But if. If you're a candidate and you're sleep deprived and you're trying to figure this out because you get training during the day and then we're going to amp it up at night with role playing and scenarios and stuff and put you in some, you know, like, live kind of deals, but they put you through.
- [19:59]
A
All the training and then eventually you get assigned.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah, so, yeah, I get back to the school and then it's as seniors that are there and they'll see whether or not, like, you may not know I'm messing up because you're a candidate and you're freaking out, but they'll know.
- [20:15]
A
Yeah.
- [20:15]
B
And then they're also role playing with you, so they're bouncing off of you. And I was blessed enough to be thought well of by several people, and they started bringing me in on cases, and that's how it all started taking off for me.
- [20:28]
A
And so what was the first, like, biker group or neo Nazi group that. Or white nationalist group, rather. I don't know what you necessarily want to call them.
- [20:35]
B
No, the. The white supremacist, neo Nazi, whatever. White nationalists. I think the. The last term, I think still current for the FBI was racially motivated violent extremists.
- [20:46]
A
Okay.
- [20:47]
B
White. You know, And I'm like, okay, well what if you're a black, racially motivated violent extremist? They go, well, then you're an RMV black. And I go, somebody's. I'm sure somebody got an incentive award for changing the title, but either way, I didn't do that till the end of my career. I may have bumped into those on cases I was on, but I didn't know about the ideology or deep. Until the end of my career. I was always a gang transnational organized crime guy as a case agent. And then, you know, I look like a biker, I ride bikes, lift weights. So it was kind of natural. Even if I did a case that wasn't necessarily a biker case, everybody thought I was a biker anyway.
- [21:28]
A
Right.
- [21:28]
B
Or truck driver.
- [21:29]
A
Right. So you started working with, like, some cartel, some cartel drug situations.
- [21:34]
B
That's when I was a case agent. So I did a couple of cameo undercovers, which is just like it sounds. It's just like in a movie. Like, I pop in for one Night. I'm not the primary. We're just doing a. One thing. We were doing stuff down there with alien smuggler. Now when I got there, I was working drugs. And then the big flavor of the month changed, and it was special interest aliens. In other words, you're coming from threat countries, and they're coming across the Mexican border in the United States illegally. And. But they're from, like, China or they're from. Back then. It could have been, you know, an Al Qaeda member or something like that. So you're looking if they're coming from those threat countries, and that's what we started working. So you work in the cartel. Whether you. Whether you work in drugs or you were working human trafficking, it's the same cartel. Wow.
- [22:22]
A
So take me through some of those cases. You have a guy who would be potentially some type of foreign threat. Maybe they're a spy. Maybe they are coming here for some type of terrorism. And they're coming through the Mexican border, and they're working with the cartels to smuggle over.
- [22:36]
B
Yeah. With the exception of one time we did get a call from Mexico, and I don't want to offend anybody. There's a Mexico. Corruption is rampant. Everything revolves around money. At least it did when I was there. Yeah. And the Gulf Cartel controlled everything, so. But they also knew there was certain heat that they didn't want. And they did actually catch two undocumented aliens coming through from Yemen. And this was fresh. The Al Qaeda said, the 911 stuff. This was, like, fresh. And they were like. They grabbed them and said. And they called and said, hey, we got these two guys from Yemen. Y'all can have them if you want. Because they didn't want that kind of heat.
- [23:21]
A
Oh, wow.
- [23:22]
B
So for. But for the most part, yeah, it's just money.
- [23:25]
A
So it comes from the Mexican authorities for that case specifically?
- [23:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, it could be. I'm not sure exactly how that came across. It could be you got a source, and that source may be a cartel member, and they call the commandante, and the commandante calls our border liaison officer because we do, like, cross trainings and, you know, build. Try to build relationships. But, yeah, it came in, and we went over and picked them up and interviewed him.
- [23:47]
A
So why would these cartel guys want to sell out like, these. These Yemeni guys that are.
- [23:52]
B
Because they didn't want the border shut down because of. I mean, think of what you're getting versus what you're going to lose. I see we shut down the border. That's kilos and kilos. Of dope not making it across. That's a lot more hands on. And this is two dudes paying how much money? It doesn't matter. They're like, we don't want that.
- [24:10]
A
Oh, so Yemeni terrorists get in, cause some type of, you know, terror attack in America, and then the board is cut down and then the cartel is not making any more money.
- [24:18]
B
Pretty much.
- [24:19]
A
Interesting.
- [24:19]
B
So it was always a cat and mouse game, but under Oziel Cardenas, who was the head of the Gulf cartel during that time, there was a, there was an operational procedure. I mean, it was like once, once he was taken off, Department of justice pretty much took him off. It opened a vacuum and now everybody's fighting for that territory. And it got to the point to where like you're driving around in Mexico, if you're in a nice vehicle, it's like. Or a nicer vehicle. It might be. It might be the Setas who used to be the enforcement arm for the cartel looking at you going, well, you're not one of us. Who are you with? Well, I'm just, I'm so and so Joe Blow. I'm coming over here, I'm doing a mission with, no, no, there's no way. And they start chopping head because everybody was vying for that, that territory.
- [25:05]
A
Yeah, I've heard the say those were some of the most like, maybe the most brutal.
- [25:09]
B
Yeah, they're the ones that did the kidnapping. They did the kidnappings. They did the. They would get the quotas if you didn't pay your, your quota for. Yeah, I mean, you're getting kidnapped. I've had sources that were kidnapped multiple times, held for two weeks, had a target. We were interview investigating and she got kidnapped because she got behind on her quotas. Paying the cartel to be allowed to smuggle. You know, I'm paying a fee to you to let me smuggle people in kind of thing. And yeah, man, she was kidnapped for a couple of weeks and beat and threatened and all kinds of stuff. We've had them come across the border, beat the trash, man. They were. They used to dummy. They'd throw bricks, kilos of cocaine, hit them in the head. They'd. Cigar burns, battery cables. Those are the ones we would get back every now and then. One of the last cases I worked as a case agent, that was an extortion kidnapping. It was, it was three, I say kids and it was like at 19, 20, 21, and they didn't know. They ran over their head and money went missing. They, they were mules. They drove A car, they get dropped off at a mall in Dallas or something. Well, then the car goes to the shop and then the bad guys take the dope out of the car, put the money back in and then the kids drive the car back down. Well, the car showed up and it was missing like a hundred thousand dollars, so they kidnapped the kids. Well, now the parents call us and you know, we work these all the time back then. And I'm like, look, I'm not trying to build a dope case. You called us because your kids being held by the cartel and they're demanding this amount of money or they're going to kill your kid. But I need the truth. And if you lie, well, I don't have to deal with you. I'm going to hang up. Is there drug, are there drugs involved? Well, you know, listen, this happens all the time, every week. Are there drugs involved? Well, yes. And there's money missing, okay? And then you start brokering, you get, you start reaching out to the board liaison officer who's reaching out to commandantes, and you go, hey, it was this time of day. Three black suburbans pulled up. Everybody in BDU's got out with mask on. They grabbed this guy. You got the name. The corner of such and such. 30 minutes to an hour. They call back, yeah, they got him. He owes a hundred. Or they got them. And that case ended with, we got the kids back. Because the cartel figured out who took the money. And it was one of the older guys that worked for him. He had a younger dude working with him. And he tried to convince the young guy to split the money with him. And the young guy was like, absolutely not. Well, this guy Aguilar, the eagle, he goes, he goes and starts spending money. Kind of like dumb, like, gets a new car, two new cars, and this, that and the other. And they, they got him. And last I heard was they turned him in. They call it El Giso. They made soup out of him. It's like chop. You put you in the 55 barrel drum of 55 gallon barrel drum of either acid or diesel fuel and burn you slow, chop your fingers off while you're still alive. It's just brutal. But in it there's so many, I guess there's. I don't say you live in a bubble, but a lot of times people don't understand how evil, how much evil there is out there in the world. And it's just not that simple to just say, hey, would you stop doing that?
- [28:22]
A
Sometimes, you know, it's insane.
- [28:24]
B
There's a there's evil. I say it, I say it in the book, but I, I say it all the time. I just want you to understand that there are evil people on this planet. They want to do evil things to good people. And it's been that way pretty much since the dawn of time. If you can't deal with that, then by all means, you know, go back to your home. But lock the door and you know, don't let it ruin your life, but keep your eyes open. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
- [28:46]
A
And I'm imagining that they do these brutal acts and tell people about them, you know, and maybe they end up in like corridos or they end up in songs and they percolate through the country as a form of force. Like that's how they can sort of keep their stronghold on the power that they have in a region.
- [29:01]
B
Yeah, right.
- [29:02]
A
Like, hey, this guy stole from us and now he's, you know. Oh yeah, now he's sup. So what are you all going to do?
- [29:06]
B
OZL had a. There was, we thought it was a wives tale, but they said they had a, a midget. I don't know what the correct term is these days. I don't, I don't know. Little person, I'm not sure. But he was well endowed.
- [29:24]
A
Wow.
- [29:24]
B
And they would use that midget people.
- [29:26]
A
What the fuck?
- [29:27]
B
For punishment. Yeah. So we always thought it was a wives tale. And then one Christmas Eve, some guy had, not necessarily carjacked, but he stole a car from a lady. It was Rio Grande city. So he crosses the border in the car to try to get money from the cartel, as the story goes. And he didn't look in the backseat and there's an infant in the back seat. So now they're extremely pissed because he's bringing all this heat and he's kidnapped a kid. So they start beating him. And we brokered the deal and got him back. And when he came across the bridge, he was crying and he said he was in the room. And we're like, what are you talking about? He was in the room. And he's like, he was in the room, man. The midget was in the room. He was getting ready to what? He was getting ready to get by that guy.
- [30:09]
A
That is insane.
- [30:10]
B
And Ozil also had a. Stories of. He had a line that he would feed people to and there was a friendly that. That flew over and actually I can't remember if it was a fixed wing or it was a helicopter, but they actually did see the lion in a cage and was like, hey, where are all his bones? They're like, oh, that's el pollo. You know, that's chicken. That's a pretty big chicken. Pretty big bones.
- [30:33]
A
A legit lion.
- [30:35]
B
What the.
- [30:36]
A
I mean, it's like, this is like Roman shit. Like. Like, literally, it's like gladiator thing. Like. Like, yeah, we got some prisoners. Feed them to the lions. I mean, that's insane.
- [30:43]
B
Different way of life and. And different value of life.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [30:46]
B
Different value life. Like, they. They just didn't value life. Like. And I'm not saying they. I'm not trying to generalize and say, you know, not Hispanics. It was just the cartels.
- [30:55]
A
Yeah, it's just a rough, rough people in organized crime. And typically, the more competitive the crime is, the more brutal you have to be. Right? Like, there are in, you know, certain parts of Mexico, there are many different cartels that are all fighting. I've even heard, I think Ed Calderon, I don't know if you know him. He's great, but he's. He's worked a lot and, like, done different reporting and journalism on the cartels in Mexico. And I think he was actually a federacial or something. He was like a federal agent down there. And he even describes, like, the police in Mexico as, like, the fifth power. Is that, like, they almost act as their own cartel because it's so dangerous and it's so violent that everyone is upping the stakes.
- [31:32]
B
And when that. When that vacuum opened with OZL losing power, the satisf said, you know, hey, we're the enforcers. We should be the ones running this thing. And then the Gulf Cartel is trying to take back over, and then the senior lower cartel tries to move in. I think at one point, Ms. 13 tried to move in. And then the military wants their peace. You know, there's been. I mean, I was down there on the border for six and a half years, and there were several instances of a dope load or whatever coming across the river and it's being encountered by border patrol or whoever else, and bullets start flying from both sides of the river from. That's. From the. From the Mexico side towards the American side. And it's not the cartel. It's. It's uniform.
- [32:14]
A
Wow.
- [32:15]
B
So, yeah, not trying to. Not trying to generalize and paint a bad picture for everybody. But I will tell you that Miguel Alaman, across from Rome. Roma. Yeah. Roma. Roma, Texas. The. They had a new command, Dante, that was running on no corruption and this, that, and the other, and gonna clean things up. I'M not gonna do the typical thing.
- [32:41]
A
What happened to him?
- [32:41]
B
I think the day he was sworn in, I think by like 11am that morning, he was in the middle of the street with two holes in the back of his head. Two bullet holes in the back of his head.
- [32:49]
A
Yeah, of course. And the, the wild thing that I never even realized is like with these cartels is that if, let's say you, you get leader, let's say you take down the big guy and you take down all of his, all of his men. Right now, it, just like you said, it creates that power vacuum where other cartels can fill in and then they get more territory, more money, they're able to get military grade weapons, they get submarines, and they become actually more dangerous. So by taking out some of these other smaller cartels, you, it creates almost a monopoly.
- [33:16]
B
The devil you know.
- [33:17]
A
Yeah, it's, it's such a, such a.
- [33:20]
B
Bizarre because when things started just like I left, somewhere around the time that Ozil was taking off somewhere, it was in the same kind of couple year frame. And I remember talking to some of my buddies who were agents still down there, and they're like, man, they don't even. Like they used to kidnap and they would use the victim's phone. So we knew we had, they rarely recharged the phone. So we knew we had the battery life of that phone to get this deal done. Right after that, after the OZL was gone, then it was like, they're not even broken, they're just chopping their heads off. You just find a van full of eight heads. Wow. You know, you said, and I've seen some pretty gruesome video that was right there with, you know, jihadist that saw and saw in the head off with a, I mean, almost like slow motion with a rusty old blade.
- [34:12]
A
So when you start building the case, when you're doing this work and you're trying to, for example, get these kids out of kidnapping or these young adults out of kidnapping, how does that start to build out? You start working with the local authorities to try to pinpoint them. Are you ever on the phone with like the cartel bosses themselves? Like, how does that work?
- [34:28]
B
Most of the time if you say you're the family member who's called and you've called and I grabbed the phone, they're like, hey, we got a call for squad. Whatever. I answer and you go, hey, it's me. This is the story. My son's missing. But they're calling and they want $300,000 that they're going to kill him. All right, let's start working backwards. What happened? Don't lie to me, lie to me. I'm hanging up. And then you get to the bottom of it and, I mean, I may put recorders with you, especially if they're the ones calling you. If I'm not with you 24 7, then I want you to be able to record those phone calls when they come across. Meanwhile, I am reaching out to a board liaison officer who basically that, I mean, it's in their title. They're always liaison and with Mexican authorities and we're doing cross trainings and stuff like that and they're reaching out to their counterparts. And then a Commandante calls and you know, I don't know who they're calling. I don't have that. I didn't have the phone records. But they're calling somebody and they're calling back and going, yeah, the cartel's got him. Apparently he lost this much dope. Well, and then you start brokering. Hey, well, what do you want? We want 300 grand. You're with the family, you got 300 grand? Absolutely not. They don't have it. What do you want? A hundred grand? You got 100 grand? No, what do you have? Well, we got $55,000. Okay, they got $55,000. Well, what else do they have? What kind of vehicles? They loved V8, four by fours. So if you got a Suburban, four by four Tahoe truck, quad cab, four by four. You say, okay, how many miles are on it really? I mean, it's just.
- [36:03]
A
You're going to get Carfax.
- [36:04]
B
Yeah. And then you're like. And you're like, okay, Ryan Reynolds here from IT Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have.
- [36:18]
A
One of your assistant's assistants switch you.
- [36:20]
B
To Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
- [36:24]
A
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate, first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com it's.
- [36:37]
B
Got 20,000 miles on it and they got $55,000. Okay, midnight at the bridge, we send the truck and the money over and Pablo or whoever comes walking back across the bridge. And if it was dope related, generally they just look at you and give you the Finger and say, we're not telling you nothing because they've already been threatened that they're going to be killed and their family will be killed and everything else. So in some ways, you can look at it like you just freed a dope dealer. I will say my personal belief is that when the alien smuggling stuff, I did really look at them as victims. And there were several cases where, like the family who's in the United States works, they send their money to get their kids smuggled in. And you have to cross the river in the Rio Grande Valley. So you got to cross the river and then you're usually put at a staging location because then you have to get past the checkpoint and generally, you know, like, where I was at, all roads lead through either the Cerritos checkpoint, which is north of Brownsville, the Falfurious checkpoint, which is north of McAllen, or the Hebronville checkpoint, which was further west, getting towards the Laredo area.
- [37:44]
A
And how do they get across river?
- [37:45]
B
Just a boat walking to waiting. Yeah, I've been down there like you. Again, I don't know what it is right now, but you're riding down the dirt roads because it's not like. Like if you go to El Paso, you look across the highway I10 and there's a fence, and then there's a neighborhood. That neighborhood's Juarez in the Rio Grande Valley is fields, you know, like, at least where I was at, it's like you got like crop fields and all this agricultural stuff. Then it's the river. So you might be on a dirt road. You never know what you come across. There'll be people coming across and all their dry clothes in a bag because they're swimming. They get over, they open the bag up, change clothes and then go. But usually there's a walker they call the coyote. Usually that person had a cell phone and. And they get them to a staging location, at which point they'll be picked up by somebody else and then walked through the brush around those checkpoints. And then they're on their way to Houston or Dallas or wherever they're going. So sometimes we would have it to where the family paid money. And it's this one case I'm going to talk about is a five year old girl and they're calling and saying, hey, she's sick. And she's gonna. If we're not giving her any medicine, if you don't pay us more. They got them across the river. Now they're holding them at a stash house. And now they're extorting. Well, if you want it, we need more money. Well, man, I already paid you the money, right? And now you've got they and they. And in this case in particular, the five year old girl, her aunt was coming with her and another aunt, well, one of the aunts was like a 16, 17 year old, mentally and physically challenged female. And they left her to die in the brush. Luckily she was found and that's how the whole case started. They're like, hey, we got this girl, we don't know much about her. Then child protective services comes in and says, wait a minute, we figured out her, her family members, Honduran are in Manassas, Virginia. So you start calling them. So now I'm, we're cutting leads to whatever FBI office is close to Manassas, Virginia, sending an agent out there with a recorder. Hey, here's this. Coach him on this. And, and then we start working it backwards and trying to find the phone and find the girls. And we did.
- [39:45]
A
In that case, I mean it's remarkable. It's such a, such a tricky thing. I talked to my buddy, Fernando Puente. He used to be a coyote. He ended up getting jammed up and went to supermax for a little bit. Ok? He, like the way he's describing it from his perspective as a guy that was working with cartels is like, look, you grow up in a bad situation, there's no money. You get an opportunity to like start doing low level stuff with the cartel. You're like, all right, sure, I'll make some money doing this. And then he started doing border coyote stuff, going through out of TJ into San Diego, doing just like standard border check. And so he was an American citizen that had dual citizenship. And he was going back and forth taking people, three people behind him, through the border checkpoint. And they would have a high vis vest, they would have a fake passport or stolen passport. And yeah, he would bring people in and he was like, look, I was doing my job and some of the people I was bringing in were bad, probably right. They might have been criminals, they might have worked with the cartel some. But most of the people he said that he was bringing through were like, look, it was an old woman that was reconnected with her family and she got deported and her family's all in San Diego. And I was just trying to bring the family back together. He's like, I'm bringing good people through bad, you know, like old women, some heartbreaking stories. Like a five year old girl that's trying to reconnect with her family that's down there. Like, like you can see both sides obviously.
- [40:57]
B
By the way, we didn't deport that family.
- [40:59]
A
There you go.
- [41:00]
B
We hooked that, we hooked that five year old girl and her aunts back up with her parents.
- [41:03]
A
That's awesome.
- [41:03]
B
And the parents came into the parent and the uncle, the mother and the uncle came down and testified. Oh really? Yeah, at the trial. Because we went to trial, that guy got life. Thank God he got life because when we, when we found the stash house where they were staged, they had bars on the outside and the inside. In other words, they couldn't get out. So they charged them with kidnapping as well. Federal kidnapping, hostage taken. And yeah, it was wild case. But I'm with you. There's on a humanitarian scale, it's tough. Yeah.
- [41:31]
A
I couldn't imagine your position like you're dealing with a 5 year old girl, immensely handicapped, 16 year old. Like. Yeah, they're just in the middle of some, a terrible situation.
- [41:39]
B
Yep.
- [41:40]
A
And yeah, as a father yourself, like it's probably heartbreaking.
- [41:44]
B
Yeah. When we, when we put the five year old girl, we put the five year. I laugh now, but we put the five year old girl on the phone with her mother after we rescued her and she's still in her little Catholic girl outfit, you know, she's talking to her and dude, every guy, we were all like, you know, walking off like it's got something in my face, man.
- [42:04]
A
The dust is terrible.
- [42:06]
B
A beautiful moment.
- [42:08]
A
I mean it is.
- [42:08]
B
But we've also been up for over 48 hours straight chasing this phone, trying to rescue before it's too late.
- [42:14]
A
So I mean, it's amazing, man. What's up guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you are a grown child. Yes. You're a giant man child and you just love stuff in your face. And all the sugary cereals you ate when you were a kid, when you were just a fat little 8 year old, you would sit down on your couch and you would just eat these sugary cereals. And nowadays you try to do that. Like I have, you feel terrible, you go, oh yeah, my blood pressure is rising. I do get a hangover from eating these cereals that I ate when I was a child. And that's why I want to talk to you about Magic Spoon. This thing right here, freshly opened because I was just engorging myself. Magic Spoon is all the flavors that you love that come from your favorite nostalgic cereals. Flavors like fruity cocoa frosted. Do those sound familiar to you. Because legally I can't say what they are. But those are the flavors that Magic Spoon has. And here's what's amazing about Magic Spoon. It's the same taste, it's all the flavor packed into every bite from those childhood cereals. But 13 grams of protein, 0 grams of sugar and 4 grams of net carbs. Yeah, imagine that, 13 grams of protein. This is protein packed cereal. So instead of being a little fat kid, you can sit down on Sunday morning, watch your cartoons and get freaking jacked. Yeah, you'll look like Ronnie Coleman or something. You keep on crushing these, you're gonna be diesel as hell. So instead of being a little fat boy, you can be a giant strong man but still keep your same habits of just sitting down and watching your cartoons. And for the listeners of this program, if you go to magicspoon.com camp, that's right, magicspoon.com camp C A M P. You're gonna get $5 off your next order. Five whole dollars. You can save and apply to therapy for figuring out your disgusting twisted childhood of stuff in your face with processed sugars and red dye 40 and stuff like that. But with Magic Spoon you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. It's all good. 13 grams of protein, none of the sugar, 4 grams of carbs. Get it today, Magic Spoon on Amazon or at your nearest grocery store. Or you can go to magic spoon.com camp C A M P for $5 off. Now let's get back to the show. You fatty. And what of those cases in that six year window is like the most memorable to you? Was it the one with this little girl? Was there other ones pretty memorable? Was there other ones where there was like very bad guys that came through that you were able to, to get?
- [44:36]
B
There's so much because man, so again down there I wasn't just a case agent, I was on SWAT. So we're hitting, you know, Hermano's pistoleros houses at 6 in the morning. You know, it's, there's all kinds of stuff down there. The work was good. The word, I mean it was a plentiful place to work. But that, the five year old girl story, that's. That one sticks out in my mind. I'm sure there's others, but that just, just the satisfaction of finding her. Yeah. Getting the bad guy along with 49 other undocumented aliens at that house. Yeah. You know, yeah, good. But like you said, your, your friend, it is a job. That's what they look at it like. Even the drug smuggling. It's farming.
- [45:22]
A
Yeah.
- [45:22]
B
So that's what they grew up around. It's kind of like I'm, I'm a firm believer in you can be a product of your environment. I mean like, you take somebody like, let's just say Michael Vick, when he got busted for all the dog, all the pit bull fight and stuff. Yeah. It's horrific. The people who don't know, they're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe it. And I think it's horrific. But that's what he grew up around.
- [45:43]
A
Yeah.
- [45:43]
B
Nobody ever stopped it.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah.
- [45:45]
B
I never got in trouble for it. So it just grows.
- [45:47]
A
Yeah.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah.
- [45:48]
A
I had a soccer coach that got arrested when I was like 13 for fighting. He was like, he had a backyard, you know, rooster pit and he would have.
- [45:55]
B
I've been to him, I'm sure.
- [45:57]
A
Like, and it's one of those things when I was a kid, I was like, this is. I can't. I was like crushed. I was like, I can't believe it. And then as I've like grown up, I got more ingratiated with like, you know, Central American culture. Got way more friends that were Mexican and they're all like, yeah, my uncle did that. Yeah, my brother in law did that, my friend. Rural.
- [46:11]
B
Rural Appalachian mountain.
- [46:13]
A
Yeah.
- [46:14]
B
Right.
- [46:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's. It's just, it's pretty gruesome too. Oh, it's, it's.
- [46:18]
B
I mean, like at the end of the day, you just see again, a 55 gallon barrel drum. It's just full of dead roosters.
- [46:25]
A
Yeah.
- [46:26]
B
That didn't make it.
- [46:27]
A
Yeah.
- [46:27]
B
Yeah.
- [46:28]
A
So I think it's easy to look at things, you know, if you're outside of the culture and be like, these people are depraved. It's evil. You know, they're making roosters fight.
- [46:34]
B
But also look at the poverty.
- [46:36]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [46:37]
B
You know what I mean?
- [46:37]
A
It's always connected with that. Right.
- [46:38]
B
Yeah. Right. I mean, what else do you do? You know, that's what they grew up around because that's all they've known and you know.
- [46:43]
A
Yeah.
- [46:44]
B
There's actually a lot of money in. I spent a lot of money on those birds.
- [46:47]
A
You don't. People don't realize that, like they're breeding up these roosters, like thousands and thousands of dollars going to like getting the best ones. And they have these wind records and they rehabilitate them. It's like a proper. Yeah.
- [46:59]
B
You know what I mean? You're getting a bloodline. Yeah.
- [47:01]
A
It's insane. So after you're doing these cartel cases. What. What work we moved on to after that.
- [47:05]
B
That. So while I was in McAllen as an agent, I was. I was doing some undercovers. It's like, it ended up being public corruption. And I did some other, like, cameo, smaller things. And again, like the book, I don't cover everything. There's so many times you get a call or an email or you see a canvas, and you respond and you meet the case team, and they're like, yes, you're the one. Let's start moving forward. And it never. It never comes to fruition.
- [47:32]
A
Sure.
- [47:32]
B
The case never even takes off, you know, so there's tons like that. But when I was down in McAllen, that's when I did land the. The Outlaws case.
- [47:41]
A
So. So take me through that whole process. How does that story or how does that case come across your desk?
- [47:45]
B
I can't remember if I saw. I don't think I saw a canvas. I think that somebody. Somebody I met through the undercover program, it was probably, I'll say, like this. I know that when I was role playing at the UC school, a mentor. Later, buddy of mine grabbed me, and again, nickname was Big Country. He's like, country. He said, I just want you to know I didn't just come here to role play. He was out of Atlanta, and he says, I'm up here looking for possible undercovers because we got a case that's brewing. And I couldn't remember if he was the undercover coordinator or not, but he was clearly connected with undercovers in his division. And he said, what do you think about doing an Outlaws case? And I was like, hell, yeah. That one never came to fruition. So I'm doing this other case that's in Oklahoma, and I either get the call or somebody calls me, and I call about it, but for this case in particular, and they don't all work like this, but I flew out to Boston, and I was interviewed by the case team. It was kind of American Idolish, you know, like, really, Like, I'm. I'm. I'm sitting there, and I'm just getting peppered with questions. But it's not just the FBI. It's the undercover coordinator for the FBI. It's dea. It's atf, had people there. It's local task force officers and stuff. And, you know, I just. I mean, I'm truthful. I'm transparent. It's the only way I know how to be. And it's like, yeah, how many. How many biker gangs have you infiltrated? I'm like, none. I mean, like, undercover. I mean, but I. I was a bouncer in Charleston, South Carolina, and the Hells Angels came in there all the time. I was Bison, narcotics guy. I ride and, you know, and this and the other. And I understand the undercover technique. And. And then we just started working from there, and they picked me, and we came up with a game plan on how to possibly bump or start making contact with targeted individuals.
- [49:44]
A
So now when a case is brewing, like, even before you get involved, what. What exactly does that look like? Like, do you get a source? Is there something.
- [49:50]
B
Can be. It can be all kinds of things. It could just get what we call good old traditional law enforcement.
- [49:54]
A
Okay.
- [49:55]
B
So just like me being a case agent and McAllen, I may. It may be a local PD that comes and says, hey, we got that. We arrested this person. And this, this and this, and you start working it off of that. It could be that you flip somebody. But most likely you're. You're probably going out and interviewing people and gathering information. So you can say at a minimum, hey, it's. We've got several sources of information, whether they're on the books or not, that have reported so. And so is dealing. Dealing dope. Well, then you can do surveillance, and then you can start looking at other things like phones and this, you know, and you might see something else to build enough for you to open a case.
- [50:31]
A
I see.
- [50:31]
B
Because you can't just open a case willy nilly.
- [50:34]
A
You're not going to see four bikers on the highway be like, open the case.
- [50:37]
B
Yeah.
- [50:37]
A
You got to have PD or you're.
- [50:38]
B
On the border of Mexico and say, everybody's a criminal.
- [50:40]
A
Yeah.
- [50:40]
B
You know what I mean?
- [50:41]
A
Right. So you got local PD that arrests a guy. He's got some meth on him or something, and he's dealing. And you say, okay. And then maybe he gives you a little tip.
- [50:49]
B
Or they're just building. They're building their own separate cases. And then. And then maybe you take. You looking. Take it to a federal level so it's a bigger hammer. And the federal. The federal court system is way more consistent than any state system that I've ever seen. Right. So. And you get bigger, bigger licks. Usually. Well, I say usually. It depends. Depends. But for the most part, and better. For better asset forfeiture as well, a lot of times. So now they're expanding the net. But when I'm training or I'm teaching or speaking, I tell them, I'm like, look, man, a lot of these cases, you go on as an undercover. They've been working on this for a year and a half. This is a case team that's been working non stop. They built this. They built this. They've got this person in the pocket, They've got this. But they don't have enough to charge them. But they're finally at a point to where they think, hey, we take this undercover. No different than a wiretap. You know, it is not like TV for somebody to say, hey, I need to be on that phone in 30 minutes. My. I mean, we might. Back in the day, which you can't do now, but back in the day on the border, there was like an emergency kind of a thing. You could send them, maybe Sprint or Nextel and say, hey, and you might get a 24 hour window so you can at least ping the phone and see where it's at. But those situations, pinging for like life stuff, that can still be done, but like to go up on somebody's phone and just listen, we're talking 50 to 80 page affidavits. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's so much court stuff and going through the United States Attorney's Office, OEO, and then you finally get approved, and then in 15 days you got to give another report. So there's all kinds of avenues, but in this particular case, they've been working it and they, they, they had a lot of information on certain members of the Taunton, Massachusetts outlaws that were purportedly dealing in criminal offenses. So you may go in there, say you do infiltrate or say you're the case agent and you've worked. I had a case on somebody on the domestic terrorism side for a year and a half. Couldn't get them on anything federal. And I finally said, look, I'm gonna go talk to them because this is, this is ridiculous. Going for a year and a half, we don't have anything. But I do know this dude is well connected, like, well connected domestic terrorism case. Yeah. So let me just go talk to this guy.
- [53:12]
A
And so you. Did you.
- [53:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's. I, I love connecting with people. And throughout, throughout my career. Let's see, a lot of times what I say to people when I arrest them, maybe with the exception of a pedophile. But I'll look at you and I'll say, man, I don't. I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. What I'm saying is, is you're an adult and you chose to break the law and you got caught. So here we are, you know, let's go from there. But I. I've talked to so many people in my career, and again, not a chest beaten thing at all. It's just. Actually comes from a humble place. I'm just like, I walk away from people who have hated law enforcement their entire life, and they may look at me and say, you know, I hate cops, but you're not too bad. Or, I didn't know there were cops like you. And it's just connecting with people, and then you got to gain the trust. And.
- [54:05]
A
But you don't come from a moral high ground. You come from a place of empathy and understanding. It's like, look, I've chosen this. This job to be a good guy. I'm a cop. I try to help and protect people. And you grew up in a situation where that was not your M.O. and now you're doing crime, and you chose to do crime. And yeah, just like you said, like, you're jammed up, so what do you want to do?
- [54:22]
B
Yeah.
- [54:22]
A
And I think coming from that. That mutual level of respect, like, I'm not better than you. I just. I happen to have a badge and you don't, and you do crime, so.
- [54:30]
B
No, I did a lot. That's what I tell them. I go, man, I did all kinds of stuff. I just didn't get arrested. And I've been arrested and charged, charged and arrested and found guilty. I said, I wouldn't be where I'm at right now. Yeah, it would have been a felon. Yeah, it would have been a felony. I wouldn't have been able to be a cop or an agent.
- [54:44]
A
Right. So it's like, yeah, you're doing your job. I'm doing my job. So what do you want to do? Yeah, yeah, that's.
- [54:47]
B
Let's start here. And I usually lay everything out, too, so that. This is what I got on you. This is it.
- [54:52]
A
So I want to get to the outlaw thing, but before that, this domestic terrorism case. So what happened in that situation and what did it actually. Actually, how did it unfold when you went and met with the guy?
- [55:02]
B
Jump out, you mean? Oh, when I was a case agent. Yeah. I can't give away too much because I don't want to burn the guy. He was a source, but I gained his trust.
- [55:13]
A
So you just showed up at his house?
- [55:15]
B
No, we did like a. There's. There's things we call a wall off. In other words, you can be like, I mean, if I show up at your house and everybody's Watching, they're gonna know the Feds came and talked to you, right?
- [55:23]
A
Yeah.
- [55:24]
B
But if you're already being looked at by local police for a possible vandalism that happened, and they've already questioned. Everybody knows that. I'll have the police call you back. Got one more question for you. And now I'm in there. So you walk in, everybody thinks it's just normal, whatever. And then. But now I'm in there, and I go, hey, specialized guy paying, I want to talk to you. You know? And I'll tell you, I've been following you for a year and a half. I know this. I know this. I know this. All well within your constitutional rights, you know, but I also know this, you know, and it's kind of like. It kind of goes to that Joint Terrorism Task Force thing. You do a lot of knock and talks. You do a lot of going out and talking to people. And because it gets crazy where, like, somebody files a report, and because it's filed in the guardian system, we have to go talk to them. And, I mean, that's been things like, oh, lady says she was kidnapped by ISIS and they replaced her eyes with alligator eyes. And I'm like, who put this in the system?
- [56:19]
A
All right.
- [56:20]
B
You know, now we have to go find her an interviewer. Yeah. You know, so what do you do? You walk up to the door and you go, knock, knock, Shemza. How you doing? The Special Agents Scott Paint Task Force Officer Robert Suarez. Would you do me a favor and look at me? No, I don't see any alligator eyes.
- [56:35]
A
You got to bring some crickets with you or something grabs at them. If she starts eating the crickets, then it's like, all right, you might have some reptiles.
- [56:42]
B
That'd be like, well, okay, she's legit.
- [56:44]
A
Yeah. Wow, that's wild.
- [56:46]
B
But what's the crime? I don't know. Kidnapping, I guess.
- [56:48]
A
Yeah. And I guess, is there a crime.
- [56:49]
B
To replace your eyeballs with alligator eyes? I don't know.
- [56:51]
A
Yeah, and you got arrest her, put her in, like, a canvas bag or something. I don't even know how you take down a reptile, man.
- [56:56]
B
So, yeah, so that particular person I flipped, and, man, what a world of knowledge. And we actually became, you know, pretty good acquaintances.
- [57:03]
A
Yeah.
- [57:03]
B
It's conflict of interest. You can't, like, I'm not going to go hang out with you, you know, if you're a source, I can't hang out with you and get drinking, you know, unless we're undercover together. If you're undercover with me, yeah, we can go drinking together, but perks of the job. Yeah, but it's. Yeah, you got to be careful.
- [57:16]
A
So you get involved with the outlaws in Massachusetts.
- [57:19]
B
Yes.
- [57:19]
A
And at this point, at this period in time, can you just tell me about what the outlaws are? What are you told about them? What kind of crime are they doing?
- [57:26]
B
I already knew a lot of. There's a one percenter biker club which goes back to. My biker friends would be so pissed at me for forgetting the years and stuff. But my brain isn't quite what it used to be. If it was anything back then, let's just say I have fewer brain cells than I did previously.
- [57:44]
A
Almost a double major. Don't forget that.
- [57:46]
B
I know, right? Yeah. And I had a 3, 8 average my last two years.
- [57:48]
A
What are we talking about?
- [57:50]
B
I don't know. Nothing. I don't remember any of it clearly. Didn't help me a whole lot. I've made a lot of bad decisions. But One percenter biker club, and that goes back to World war eras. And it's like the, the head of the American Motorcycle association or something said, hey, because that's back when your gangs were starting to form and stuff, you know, and they would see these guys coming back from war and now they're just wreaking havoc in their neighborhoods because, I mean, there's no transition, there was no decompression. They come back and they're like, hell, we've been running around doing dope and killing people. Well, now what am I going to do to get that thrill? So the statement was 99% of motorcycle riders in America are good people. It's only 1% that are bad. And they took that as a badge of honor.
- [58:37]
A
Oh, wow.
- [58:38]
B
So Now I'm a 1 percenter. And generally if you're a 1 percenter, there's probably going to be crime involved, even though most of them will say there's not. And they do toys for tots runs and all this other stuff. And they do, but it kind of, it's kind of part of being a 1 percenter, you know. Now is that all federal level cases or is it just a little street level? You know, a little bit of dope? A little bit of what, weeds? Not even really. It's decriminalized so much. They should just. I wish they'd go ahead and do it federally and decriminalize it, but. Because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the state says it's okay, but yeah, it's crazy. But the United States Attorney's office isn't really charging anybody with weed. Yeah, unless it's an enhancement. It. You know what I mean? The straight weed case. Yeah, maybe weed laced with fentanyl, but that makes it a fentanyl case. You know what I mean?
- [59:27]
A
So you go into the 1 percenters. They're doing some type of crime in this area.
- [59:31]
B
Correct.
- [59:32]
A
Is it organized? Is there like a main.
- [59:34]
B
Well, that's always the argument, right? They. They say no. It's decentralized. You know, it's a. But every week, they have a mandatory meeting that they call church. Your biker clubs. Now, does that mean every biker club's dirty? No. Does that mean that every time you have church, that is nefarious evil things going on? No, not necessarily. But when you have everybody leave their cell phone, cut their cell phones, I'll put them in airplane mode, leave them outside, and you come in. Well, I mean, you know, you got to pay your dues. What else you got going on? I don't know. I know it varies with. It would vary with the chapter. Not even the. Or not even the club. It just vary with the chapter. So the reporting on the Taunton, Massachusetts, outlaws was moving. Dope, theft, stuff like that. So my goal on cases like that, especially if I'm going in cold, which means I'm not being introduced, that means I just got to come up with my own way to go in. And I won't give away too much tradecraft or. Or anything like that, or try not to, but, you know, I knew how clubs worked, and they did. They had. They had some good intelligence that a certain member, they're like, hey, this guy really loves to be the center of attention. I mean, he has to be the center of attention, and he loves to have big dudes around him. You know, these are my guys kind of thing. So I got a couple of things working for me. And. And they're like. And I said, hey, man, can they wear their colors into the. In this. This strip club they all went to. And for the listeners who don't know, colors are your cuts, which is the leather vest you see? And it might be for the outlaws, you've got the center patch, which is the Charlie and the cross pistons. Charlie's the skull. You have a top rocker, a bottom rocker, and then there's all kinds of patches that mean all kinds of things that you could really just sit here for an hour plus talking about.
- [61:24]
A
Can we get a picture of one of these Christos?
- [61:26]
B
Bam. There's the patch right there. Yeah, right there. So you've got. So that's just the outlook. But like, take a picture of one wearing them. Yeah. So you see the top rockers. Outlaws. And then it's the. The. The state under. Oh, my glasses on. That was Australia. Yeah, Outlaws, Australia.
- [61:43]
A
Oh, wow. They're international, this.
- [61:45]
B
Oh, yeah, man. Yeah. One Percenters are. They're all over the world.
- [61:48]
A
I mean, cool branding. I don't know who they're. I don't know who their branding agent was, but they did a good job with that.
- [61:52]
B
I know. It's actually my favorite colors. I'm not being biased because that's the group I was with, but I'm like, I love their colors. Yeah.
- [61:59]
A
Graphic designers did a good job. It's crazy. Some graphic designer somewhere got a. Got an order. They're like, hey, we need a skull.
- [62:04]
B
Across the years, some of the. The, like, if you look at the. The Vagos is the Vagos. It's the old green Dan. It looks terrible. The Pagans, look there. They're. They're. I mean, as if I don't have enough enemies, you know, he's on there saying, our patch sucks. I'm like, that's. It needs to be redrawn or something. Yeah.
- [62:22]
A
It's one thing to arrest us, one thing to infiltrate us, but you're not going to say the word.
- [62:25]
B
Yeah, see, that's not trash.
- [62:27]
A
Yeah. It's a little. It's a little Hot Topic. It's cool. I mean, don't come for me. I. I respect all, but I mean. Yeah, the. The. The Outlaws is sick.
- [62:36]
B
Yeah.
- [62:37]
A
Wow. Okay, so.
- [62:39]
B
So I asked, man, can you wear the. Did they wear their cuts into the bar? And they're like, no. And I'm like, oh, man. Here I am, an out of town guy at a strip club, listening to heavy metal, drinking, watching naked ladies. And so are they tattooed up? So are they. Yeah.
- [62:52]
A
You're already blasted. This.
- [62:53]
B
Yeah, well, not all the way, but I got some. I wouldn't sleep out like I am now, but I had enough. And again, I'm not saying you got to do that. Like, I'm seriously, like, people are like, oh, you got to look the part. Do you? I mean, what is the part? What is my role? I mean, am I just a truck driver that you're meeting? Well, I'm not. I don't need to look like hell. At one point in the Outlaws case, they told me I needed to shave. And that's exactly what I did. I did exactly what you did at the table. I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, you're looking real ratty. Leave that to the other dudes. I mean, now, they were tatted on their necks and everything, but they had nice haircuts. High and tights, Little j. I mean, and like, maybe a goatee and sideburns. But I was like, like, let me get this straight. The president of the Taunton chapter of the outlaws is telling me that I need to trim my goatee up?
- [63:41]
A
That's so funny.
- [63:42]
B
Okay. All right. Yeah.
- [63:44]
A
Hey, we're a biker game. We're not trash. Yeah, I mean, like, hey, we gotta look.
- [63:48]
B
Ladies don't like that. Usually has something to do with the ladies. The ladies don't like that. That's too bushy. All right, so I've now gone to that club on my own because I know how clubs work. I used to bounce in them. I say in the book, it's an oxymoron. The gentleman's club, that's an oxymoron. There's not a single damn gentleman in there. Neither was I in those days. I've looked. It's hard to find, you know, but I knew how they worked. I knew how that bar scene worked. And I did bounce in other clubs. And so I kind of use my skill set. And I'd go in there and I would order two jack and cokes, you know, Two double Jack and cokes, you know, all right, well, okay. Double fisting. And, you know, you get a dance if it's 20, you pay 40. It doesn't take long for that to kind of. Especially if it's a slow shift. You're going to see the whispering, oh, that dude's got money kind of thing.
- [64:37]
A
And you're billing the bureau for this?
- [64:40]
B
That's.
- [64:40]
A
That's the funniest part to me. Like, you're getting a laugh. Dance. You're like, yeah, it's not. Not my tab. You know what I mean? Let the boys move or pick that up. You're on to me.
- [64:47]
B
No, he's on to me. You know, no, that is not how it happened. But, yeah. Is my face red? I can feel it heating up.
- [64:57]
A
Crispy fresh ones, brand new.
- [65:00]
B
Making it rain.
- [65:01]
A
That's so funny.
- [65:02]
B
This guy just walked in, he started throwing money everywhere. He's got, like, 15 women over there. None of us can get a dance. Wow. Okay. That could probably be some sort of entrapment if we keep pushing. He just had a bunch of money.
- [65:15]
A
So hypothetically, not that you did any of this, but you walk in there and some guy like you could become the man. At the strip club. And now you're. And now you're, you know, drawing some attention.
- [65:24]
B
Could. And so if that happens. Let me ask you this, okay? If that happens. And now you've never seen me or I've never seen you. Let's play it. You're the undercover. Hell yeah, I've never seen you. You're the undercover. You've been there, you've been hanging out. It might only been a couple of times, but human nature is the exaggerate anyway, right? So now you're in that club, and now I'm the Outlaws. And I finally show up, and now you're ready because you've already been in there. You've established yourself a little bit. And now the Outlaws. And I'm over there and I'm watching you and you cracking jokes and everybody's. And I go to the bartender and I go, hey, who the hell is that guy? Oh, that's Tex. He's from Texas. He comes here all the time. It's just. You just want to look real, you know, you don't want to bluff. Almost anytime I've ever bluffed, I've been called on it. Luckily, I wasn't undercover. I mean, I was working on my undercover. I got on a plane out of McAllen, Texas, and I said I was a landscaper. I grew up landscaping. That's all I did. My dad had a retail store. We had like three crews. At one point in my history on this planet, I can name every plant just by looking at it. So I'm sitting next to a nice, well dressed elderly lady to my age at that point. I'm probably closer to her age now, but she's. She's like, what do you do for a living? I go, I'm a landscaper, bro. She started asking me so many in depth questions. She called my bluff so bad, we never even made it to Houston. It's only like a 50 minute flight from account in Houston. I just turned to her, I said, ma'am, I gotta be honest with you. I was lying. I'm an FBI agent. I'm like, I handed her a card. I'm like, I. I go, note to self, you are no longer a super landscaper. You can be a maintenance guy. You can. You can plant some trees and maintain the lawn. Yeah. So, yeah, don't bluff. So I, you know, now you're in there, right? And. And that was me. I'm in there and I'm. I'm being me, you know, you do you. But I'm cracking jokes People are laughing and. And then that one guy that they were right about, Spanky's like, who the hell is that? Who the hell is that? I did forget to throw in, though. They did all walk in with their cuts on, which totally changes me. Right. What am I going to do? Especially with an accent like this in Massachusetts. What do I do? Walk over to you and go, hey, you, you, you. You guys ride? Y'all like. Y'all like to ride? I got my fist outside. You want to get, you know, probably could take a beat down and a slapping and anything else. Yeah. So it changes things.
- [67:51]
A
And the reason it changes things, you can't go up to them.
- [67:54]
B
Well, it would be awkward. Right?
- [67:55]
A
Right. Okay.
- [67:56]
B
Hey, how you guys doing? See a black leather and testosterone, you're like, yeah, yeah.
- [68:01]
A
You know what you're getting into? So you have no excuse either.
- [68:03]
B
Yeah. So eventually he calls over to me and, hey, where the hell are you from? You know? And I say some stupid thing back to him. We go back and forth, a drink's exchange, you know, and then I get called over there and we start talking. And he ends up inviting me to. It's a Northeast regional meet in Brockton, Massachusetts, called the Lobster Fest. We had a bunch of outlaws there from all over, and I got invited. And by the time we went, I'd already befriended a guy named Scott as well. And we went in and I was his bitch for the day. You know, you walk in and it's like, who the hell are you? Who the f are you? And I'm like. Like, I'm just this man. I don't know anybody here. I don't even know how I got in the door. I'm following him. And then you just. From there it. You know, a lot of times you're just trying to ingratiate. You're just trying to make a connection. And like I said, we might be in six months and find out. There's nothing here. I mean, there's nothing federally to charge. We're out. If you've picked up some crimes, maybe the state will take it. If you haven't picked up anything, it's time to pull chalks. That's time to go.
- [69:08]
A
So you might be in for a couple months and just, you know, a couple guys smoking weed, maybe a dude's kind of a junkie on the side, but it's all low level state stuff. We're not going to kick this up to federal. And then you just fade out of the picture.
- [69:19]
B
Pretty much, yeah. Or you do an approach like the case agent might want to go do an approach. Maybe, maybe they do it where nobody can see it kind of thing. And, you know, like, hey, just want you to know, like I did with my guy, hey, I've been watching you for a year and a half. Got you here, here, here, here. I know you were part of this, but that's really like a misdemeanor. All right, what about this? What about this here? Here's what I'd like to pose to you. And again, a lot of times with jttf, you get reports of people wanting to harm people, but because of your First Amendment protected speech, you can walk out in the street right here and be like, I hate all. Any racial slur you want. I hope they all die. That's okay. In the United States, that's First Amendment protected. But if you start doing things criminally to, to like, harm somebody, right? Well, now we got something. I mean, I did, I think I did five months in a neo Nazi group. I won't say their name because the case was it just kind of went away. But I was in a group and I'm telling you, at any given point, it's probably 100 or more members all over the world. So I would go to sleep, wake up in six hours and be like 1500 posts behind. But for five months, because I'm anal and try to be a perfectionist, I did not want to be anybody that missed something, right? So I went through every post of every member for five months straight, all day long, every day for five months, and even met with a couple of them a few times. And I'm like that. They're not doing nothing. They're just talking, they're preparing. But they're not going to go out and do anything based on what we're finding. They just want somebody else to do it. And then they'll claim they're neo Nazis after that, you know, kind of thing. So there's nothing there criminally. So what do you do? You can't keep investigating them. That'd be wrong. You know, so you go out there and maybe talk to them. And then what I was going to say the JTTF thing would be like.
- [71:07]
A
I'm sorry, what is jttf?
- [71:08]
B
Joint Terrorism Task Force.
- [71:09]
A
Got it.
- [71:10]
B
So you do a lot of these knock and talks because somebody reports, oh, so and so's putting out bad language and says they won't, blah, blah, blah. So you go knock on the door, you may not have anything on them. They can tell you to pound sand, but all I'm looking for really is. Hey, crazy times right now. A lot of people get offended pretty easily. It was reported that you said such and such. I just want to make sure you're. You're not really planning on hurting anybody right now. They could tell me to pound sand, but at least I'm doing something. That's just me personally, right? That's not, that's not in the rule book for being an FBI agent. It's just one of your options is being an investigator. I'm like, hey, you're not really going to hurt anybody. And hey, by the way, if you know of anybody that's going to be hurt, I would love it if you would let me know beforehand and maybe I can help you in some way or another, you know, but we really just want to make sure nobody. Look, you can believe what you want. That's cool. I'm not saying it's wrong, like I said earlier. I'm not saying I think you're a bad person, but I'm saying we don't want anybody getting hurt. We don't want innocent people getting hurt. So now.
- [72:09]
A
So now when you go to someone after six months and there's not a ton there, but they're doing low level stuff and you just do like a little knock and talk and you tell yourself, or you tell them like, hey, I'm actually, you know, federal. What is their reaction?
- [72:21]
B
It depends. Every time, really. You're making me think of when the case is over. Because what happens most of the time when the case is over is everybody says they knew you weren't undercover. Everybody, Everybody. You know, all I need, I got. Just so you know, everything's clear. I'm Special Agent Scott Pain with the FBI. Oh, I know. You know? Hell, yeah. I've known the whole time. And you continue to sell me cocaine for a year and a half. Yeah, Yeah.
- [72:47]
A
I didn't want you to know that. I know.
- [72:49]
B
Yeah. Why? Well, hell, I like you. Yeah, I'm doing it in a country accent because this was in a country place, although my accent is country. But it'd be like, oh, hell, Scott, I like you. I mean, hell, we just being friends and I'm like, all right. It's also the same dude. This is. This is off the Outlaws case. This is another case. But he literally, he would look at me and he'd say, now, Scott, I'm gonna speed it up. Because he was pilled up, up and didn't have any teeth. And it would go a lot slower, but he would be like, no, Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore. And I go, I know, I know. I mean, I used to do a shit ton of it, but I don't do it anymore. And I go, I know. And he goes, see, it's right here. That's just a bump. And he'd do cocaine right in front of me. And I'd go. In my mind, I'm like, he just did cocaine, you said. And he goes, now I don't settle it anymore either. And I go, I know, man. And he's like, I used to sell truckloads of it, but I don't anymore. I go, I know. He goes, but if you need them 5 ounces, I can get them to you.
- [73:44]
A
What are we doing?
- [73:45]
B
I think. I really think that he thought that if he said the preamble that it would keep him from being charged with it later. I mean, he's saying the right thing, but then you turn around and do it. It's confusing.
- [73:55]
A
I mean, what's that Mark Twain quote? It's easier to trick a man than convince a man he's been tricked. You know what I mean? Like, these guys would rather just be like, yeah, I knew the whole time Than think that they got conned or think that they got tricked by a fed. No, I knew.
- [74:09]
B
Continued selling me dope crazy. I mean, hell, now I will say that the. The taunton. Now the taunton chapter outlaws president did say to me one time, he goes, hey, man, the way I look at it is if you're a snitch, you're a fed. I'm done anyway, so I might as well make as much money as I can off of you. And I was like, in my mind, I was like, pretty good concept.
- [74:28]
A
Yeah, it makes sense because I am.
- [74:29]
B
An undercover agent, and you probably are going to go to jail.
- [74:32]
A
What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I need to tell you about how you are potentially entitled for some compensation. That's right. You may have been injured without even knowing it. And I think statistically, most Americans have been injured by this. We know that our food is poison. Many of these companies, these massive conglomerates, are pumping our food with stabilizers and gums and other processed chemicals that are illegal in most other countries. But for some reason in America, they are fully legal and they are allegedly causing many health problems. That's a very small alleged. I actually just read a book about this ultra processed humans. It's fascinating that the processed chemicals that are going into our foods are terrible for you. I mean, if you were to take a baked cookie and a cookie that's filled with processed preservatives, even if they have the same exact nutritional profile, the one with the preservatives and all the gums and stabilizers and ultra processing chemicals is going to be worse for you by a far, far margin. So if you have been exposed to many of these ultra processed foods, they've been known to be addictive, they've been known to CR to target children, and they can potentially cause chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, fat fatty liver disease, both of which were unheard of 40 years ago, but now affect the lives of thousands of children. It looks like the people over at Morgan and Morgan are fighting for the people once again. That's right. Morgan and Morgan, America's largest law firm. I mean, they have, you know, handled thousands and thousands of cases, recovered billions of dollars for their clients, and now they are targeting the ultra processed food giants of the world. Okay, so if you or your child has been diagnosed with one of these diseases that I mentioned before, you may have legal options. They have helped thousands of families seek justice against these big corporations and they are ready to fight for you as well. So if you are interested, go to. For the people.com Gagnon. That's right. That is f o r the people.com Gagnon. If you're interested in potentially hearing more about the way that these companies can be affecting you and your health and the health of your family and how you may be entitled for compensation because of that. Now I do have to disclose this is a paid advertisement. Now let's get back to the show. So this Outlaws case, how long did this go for?
- [76:45]
B
It was two years.
- [76:46]
A
And so you eventually kind of get in. You, you're this guy's for a while, you're going to some bike meets and then. Your words, your words, your words. All right, come on. Don't, don't come at me.
- [76:55]
B
I know. Wait a minute.
- [76:57]
A
Yeah, that's quotes. I mean, that's quotes around. I guess you could say it. I can't say.
- [77:01]
B
I mean there's a. That could be misconstrued. I'm like a big. In what way? You know, I'm a. I'm walking behind you or I'm a. On the back of your motorcycle.
- [77:10]
A
No, no, you're not holding anyone's pocket. All right, not like that. But you're doing just like low level stuff for these guys and eventually you work your way up.
- [77:16]
B
Yeah, well, so I had a legit. I mean, again, this Accent. What am I doing in Massachusetts? You got to have a real reason to be there. You know, why. Why would I travel and do I. What do I do for a living? All these things. These. These are all things you have to think about. And it has to. You have to know it. I mean, it's. Your backstopping is your legend is what we call it.
- [77:37]
A
It's life or death if you.
- [77:39]
B
Yeah.
- [77:39]
A
If you start having holes in your story.
- [77:40]
B
I mean, so. So I. I came in as a site survey specialist. So I work for investors out of Texas, and I fly all over the country looking at properties that they may want to flip, whether it be mercantile, residential, you know, what's the zoning laws, blah, blah, blah, what kind of dirt you know?
- [78:01]
A
And do you know about this stuff or are you doing research?
- [78:03]
B
I did research enough to where I could sell. Sell it. Felt comfortable with it.
- [78:08]
A
And are you calling guys, like, are you getting, like, the way, like, an actor would prep for a role and they might, like, go hang with a mob guy, or are you calling actual surveys?
- [78:15]
B
I would suggest it if you don't know it. Absolutely. Wow. You got to have somebody. I mean, I did it through the domestic terrorism stuff, too. I mean, I had. I called an old friendly who was a hammer skin, and I'm like, hey, I knew he was a biker. I know all about the biker stuff. I said, tell me what the day you know. I mean, and you'll get credit for it. If you're a source, you'll get credit for it. But, yeah, and you got to have. You can do research yourself. But I'm. I'm. If I've got somebody, I have a lifeline, so to say, you know. Yeah, call. Call and beef that up. So I did that. But then somewhere along the way, it starts coming out. Once I know you're doing illegal activity, it starts coming out that I do illegal activity. And then going even just to parlay off the cartel stuff. Greed, man. Greed is money. Money. I mean, you know, I can. I can show you cases of the most devout white supremacists going against the most devout Mexican mafia member, going against the most devout black gang member. They all hate each other, but their favorite color is green.
- [79:19]
A
Yeah.
- [79:20]
B
And we'll deal with each other because I want to make money.
- [79:23]
A
Yeah.
- [79:24]
B
And if I need dope, you're the dope connection. If you need guns, I'm the gun connection. I tell you. I can't tell you how many times me and my buddies have said it in our career, but, I mean, we've arrested some people that put a boatload of effort and smarts and work ethic into being a criminal. And I'm like, if you just took like half of that and applied it to wanting to do something good, no, you're not going to be able to go pay two cash payments for a brand new you Dodge Challenger with your custom rims on it, but you're not going to be serving 10 plus years in prison either.
- [79:58]
A
Yeah.
- [79:58]
B
You know what I mean?
- [79:59]
A
Yeah. You know, so with this, this specific set of the outlaws you were with, was there a ideological component or was it just money and, and drugs they were working on?
- [80:08]
B
Well, I mean, the ideology is your brotherhood and your, and your club, Clubs first, no matter what. But just like so many gangs or cults or whatever are out there. Oh, we're brothers. We're this, that, and the other. Hey, you do time. We're going to put money on your books. We're going to take care of your family. That shit don't happen.
- [80:27]
A
Really?
- [80:27]
B
Yeah, for the most part.
- [80:29]
A
Wow.
- [80:30]
B
Which is when you get people wanting to come talk to us. Right, right.
- [80:33]
A
You know, was there a racial ideology with, with these guys?
- [80:38]
B
So yes and no. I will say yes because you will see the lightning bolts which can transfer over to neo Nazi. You will see American made only motorcycles. You will see no blacks, Hispanics, whites only. But like going out and blatantly like, burning crosses and yards or planning on hurting people because they're not white. I didn't see that. I mean, again though, it could change. It could change. But it's just that I think my personal opinion and what I've experienced is that stems more from when those clubs were created and what was going on in the country back then and just kind of passed down. Right. Because there's plenty of integrated. Before I retired, several times I would see a canvas for an undercover or somebody would say, hey, country, look at this one. And it would be a black motorcycle gang. And I'm like, you know I'm white, right? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, they're doing more integrated now. And I'm like, I remember thinking if I thought I was scrutinized as a new white guy in a white one percenter club, how much scrutiny am I going to be under as the only white guy in a black game? I'm like, well, you know, I mean.
- [81:46]
A
If it'll work, they might have like a DEI initiative. Like, hey, we need to bring more huts in here. We got to bring some. We got to bring the, the gringos. We Got to do whatever we can. All right? We got to diversify.
- [81:55]
B
You're our token honking. Yeah, yeah. You're the gringo.
- [81:59]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [81:59]
B
Yeah.
- [82:00]
A
So with these guys, how did this case end up actually unfolding, and how did you eventually close it out?
- [82:05]
B
Well, eventually, we. We started on covering. I started with, like, moving stolen goods for them. So they would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me at a stolen price. And then as far as they knew, I was carrying all that back to Mexico because I lived on the border and then I would. And because the cartel loved it. But I already told you, it was already out there. They love V8, four by fours. They love harleys. So started with that, and then, you know, we didn't arrest anybody. It's just, okay, I got another car. I got another car. Then it became, hey, we trust hex, which is me. And they're like, hey, we just carjacked somebody. We just took this vehicle at gunpoint, almost killed the dude. We got to get rid of this truck. It's got low jack on it or. Which is like today's own star, right? And, man, it needs to be gone. Don't worry about it. I'll get rid of it, you know, and get rid of it. So they thought, you know, and what.
- [82:59]
A
Do you do with it?
- [83:01]
B
We loaded it on the semi trailers, and they thought they were headed to. In this case, they thought they were headed back to Mexico. And essentially they were taken to a warehouse somewhere around Massachusetts.
- [83:10]
A
Wow.
- [83:11]
B
And then we started storing everything before the, you know, to build the evidence, keep the evidence.
- [83:15]
A
Right.
- [83:16]
B
And then it became, you're getting information on them doing home invasions. The case team did do a wiretap, so we got drug deals. And by the way, I mean, as soon as the. The Taunton chapter president road name was Joe dogs. And as soon as. I mean, pretty much immediately when Joe dogs found out I was living on the border, his next sentence, next question was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? And I'm like, well, there's your predication. If we did, I mean, we had enough to open the case, but he's already asked me about dope. His business sense wasn't that great because he thought that If I paid $13,000 for a kilo, which is what the price was, around 13,000. If you bought it at the border of Mexico, he thought that he was going to get it for $13,000 in Massachusetts. And I had to explain to him, that is not how it works. That's why it costs 25 to 30,000 for a kilo up here. Somebody has to get it here.
- [84:10]
A
I see.
- [84:12]
B
So then we started doing that. And like I said, throughout that case, there was a murder of a Hells Angels president. It was a shooting of a Hell's Angels president and another Hell's angel they were riding in Bridgeport, Connecticut. But the president died. Through investig. Through investigations, they found out it was a. A green truck with Florida plates. We did know that outlaws from Florida were up in that territory at the time. You know, I was making phone calls and it was like, hey man, if you come out here, things are hot right now. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to travel with a vest or anything. You got one if I get there? Yeah, we'll, we'll suit you up. You know, stuff like that. We went to Sturgis and Hell's Angels shot five outlaws at point blank range. It was like two patched outlaws, I think a probate and two old ladies, which in the biker terms, if it's your old lady, that means she's the property of you. And technically nobody else can touch her. And I'm talking it was legit shots, like paralyzed from the waist down for life, clavicle shattered and stuff like that. And we think that was kind of in retaliation for the murder. But it just goes back and forth, right? So everything started culminating to a bigger deal and we ended up doing a drug protection. We had 40 kilos of cook. I'll lay it out like this. It didn't happen fast. They believed I was a high ranking member of an international theft ring who didn't deal with dope, because dope. And this is, this was factual, right? It's like loads going back to the border. They're looking for money because the money comes back from the dope going out. If they found a truck with stolen vehicles on, it was the bill of Laden. Say if it's a legit bill of Laden, I mean, who you gonna do? You arrest the driver or you just seize the truck in the car? You know, I mean, it was things I could kind of elaborate on, but I eventually let it start being known that I did used to be in the dope game. And I started laying breadcrumbs and let them figure it out, you know, And I don't put thoughts in their head because that would be wrong, right? Or words in their mouth. And then we got it to where they believe they were going to be helping me and my former cartel contacts or my current cartel contacts, former business partners. Move drugs to. Through. Through the United States. And it was an opportunity for them to be able to help make some money, guard it, and possibly get an intro to a pipeline of better quality and cheaper dope.
- [86:50]
A
I see.
- [86:51]
B
So that's what we did. We ended up doing 40 kilos of cocaine. Real. A thousand pounds of weed. Real. And we moved it from one truck to another, which, I mean, you can imagine that's. That's going to be the Boston SWAT team and everybody snipers up because, I mean, can you imagine if 40 kilos of real cocaine made it out into the streets?
- [87:08]
A
I mean. Yeah.
- [87:09]
B
From law enforcement.
- [87:11]
A
Yeah.
- [87:11]
B
And that's anybody OD's or anything.
- [87:13]
A
Yeah. It's insane.
- [87:14]
B
Terrible.
- [87:14]
A
And not to mention, each one of those keys is what, 25,000 at the time.
- [87:18]
B
That's before it stepped on. You can make it. I mean, if it's high quality, if it's 98% purity, you can step on it right now. You just doubled your money.
- [87:25]
A
Yeah. I mean, yes. That's a huge shipment. And so then at that point, they. The shipment gets brought in.
- [87:31]
B
Yeah. Well, the big thing that everybody talks about in this case is the night before we did the deal, I got pulled down to the basement and stripped at gunpoint. They what we found out after the fact. Fact is, I'd been undercover with him for a year and a half, and we'd done all kinds of jobs. And when I say jobs, I mean criminal activity. And because we upped the ante, we didn't know it, but a call went into the head, the national president of the Outlaws, which at that time was a guy named Milwaukee Jack. And Milwaukee Jack, the. The word came back from him, him to say, has anybody really checked this guy? And the way it was explained to me from an Outlaw member who believed he was talking to Scott Calloway, not Scott, the FBI guy. He said, you know, he said, man, we've done like eight jobs with this guy. We're not wearing bracelets. He said, I don't care. I want him checked.
- [88:28]
A
What do you mean?
- [88:29]
B
Bracelets? Handcuffs.
- [88:30]
A
I see.
- [88:31]
B
Yeah. He's like, we're not in bracelets.
- [88:32]
A
Yeah.
- [88:32]
B
You know what I mean? So no handcuffs. And they said they still wanted me checked. Problem is not getting stripped in the basement at gunpoint when they're looking for a wire. The problem is being wired to the hilt. When they're stripping you at gunpoint and looking for the wire or wires, are you wired? Oh, yeah, bro. Yeah.
- [88:54]
A
So you got a wire on you?
- [88:56]
B
Yep.
- [88:57]
A
And they take you down into the basement.
- [88:59]
B
Yes. So we, we're up in the ante. And you know, at this point, I've been in a year and a half, and I don't want to say I was lax because I try not to be lax ever. It's like a kiss of death for law enforcement, you know. But I had been in that clubhouse, I don't know, umpteen times. There's only one door I'd never been in. I got to drink for free there. And that night, it was the night before, we're doing the deal. But the assistant United States attorney who was assigned to the case or had the case was like, hey, man, it would really help. Again, not going to put words in their mouth, but if they talk about this stuff at the clubhouse, inside the clubhouse, under the roof of the clubhouse, that helps helps with search warrants, it helps with asset forfeiture, and it also helps us to build that conspiracy of anybody else that may be involved with it. So I go in like, hey, you think you can do that? Well, absolutely. That's what we do. That goes back to that type A, right? I'm like, hell, yeah. Who's got pain? I'm going to get it. And I get there and I knock on the door and nobody's coming. Well, it was the president that told me to come. He opens the door all like, peeking his face because, hey, we're not ready yet. Because they were still having church. And I remember being kind of like a smart ass. I was like, then why did you tell me to come? He goes, hey, man, take this. It was a guy named O.B. was his street name, short for O'Brien. But he was a probate probationary member. So you're going to go through a minimum of six months of basically hell week, depending on who your sponsor is and how bad they want to treat you. So I take ob, we go down to get a couple of drinks, something to eat, come back. Now I'm just sitting there. But it's not registering to me that my spidey senses should be going off. I'm just thinking, I'm thinking it's just Joe being a bad businessman, you know. And then I go in the clubhouse and the door shuts and what the camera will show because I had, I had audio recording devices and I had video and audio recording devices. I always try to carry a backup in case one craps the bed. Because you don't want a defense attorney to be able to, you know, put doubt in the jury's mind and say, well, how Come. You only recorded this five minutes? Well, I didn't. I recorded eight hours, you know, so. And there are times when all that equipment craps to bed and you got to just go off of memory and document that it crabbed the bed.
- [91:17]
A
Yeah.
- [91:18]
B
So I go in there and what the camera would show you. And this is after years of watching this thing, I'm turned so the camera is facing to my left, and I'm cracking jokes, and they're all laughing. But what you can't see is when I turn my head away, the camera's still facing. I just turn my head away. They go stone face. So they're preparing. They know they're getting ready to do something to me. And it also picks up Chocolate Scott, one of the members in the back, and to the song, he's doing Air Punching. You know, some people might be like, oh, he's dancing. No, he's warming up, sort of. He's doing. And then my. Then. So in that case, I'd say my three closest relationships was the guy. Scott was number one, the one I told you about earlier. Number two would have been Clothesline. Clothesline was the enforcer, and number three would have been the president. I had friends. I mean, you. You bond with everybody, but, I mean, those were the tightest ones. So Clothesline, my boy. I'm supposed to be my boy comes up and says, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I'm like, yeah. Well, he walks me to that door I'd never been down in. In. Went through. Well, comes the door, and it is a tight stairwell. And I would say it's a basement, but that'd be a little. That'd be like stretching it a little bit because it's a Northeastern home. Yeah. Split level. I couldn't even stand up straight. I'm six four with boots on. Whatever, six, five, whatever. I couldn't stand up straight. I could probably touch the wall on both sides. So they brandished their weapons. Show them to me. And he tells me, I want you to take all your clothes off. Because there's actually. He says, there's a lot of going on, and it's my job to take care of my brothers. He said, I need you to take all your clothes off. I want you to write your name down, your full name, your address, the name of your wife and your kids. And. And I was like, oh, you know, I'm having no moment.
- [93:16]
A
What the fuck?
- [93:18]
B
So I go in and he says, take off all your clothes. And I basically take my jacket off. I take my shirt off. Take my boots off, and I take my underwear and jeans and just push them down around my ankles. So I guess I'm still clothed from ankle down. You know, checks me for everything.
- [93:39]
A
And where are all the wires?
- [93:40]
B
Well, I can't give that away.
- [93:42]
A
Fair.
- [93:42]
B
Yeah. Somewhere in my clothing. How about that?
- [93:44]
A
Fair.
- [93:44]
B
They're not at my ass, I can tell you that. But some are in my clothing. But I. I remember when I went to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. And it's because it was no crap moment. It's because I had the adrenaline dump. That's because, you know, you get auditory exclusion. Everything sounds like you're underwater. It slows down. Everything's going, whoa, whoa. Like in waves. And then your time dilation with your eyes. Everything's clicking, click, click. Just nice and slow. What could have been, I don't know, a minute? Seems like it's 10 minutes, you know, But I couldn't remember my middle name. And that's because of the stress. And I didn't even know I did it. I basically did a distraction technique. I turned and I go. I go, what else do you need? He says, well, I said my name and what else? I had no idea I said it. No idea. Consciously. I didn't even know I said it. And then I hear him yell up to a probate, hey, what do you need for that website? I'm going, oh, okay. I'm gathering intelligence, right? Active listening. I'm going, okay. So they're going to run me on. They're going to Google me. And back then there was a pretty hot website called who's a rat? Dot com. Anybody anywhere in the United States, if they got arrested by a narcotics officer, whatever, they put all their information, try to. So I'm like, okay. And then I'm. I'm like a Rolodex. I'm going through my head, names. I'm going to Scott Callaway. Scott Callaway. Scott Joseph Calloway. I go, no, Joseph was a middle name of my other alias, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like. And then I remember my initials were sacred because that SAC is usually the head of an office. Special agent in charge. And I thought that was funny because I knew I'd never be one. But so I was like, oh, man. Scott Andrew Calloway. I write that down. But like I said, he checks me. And I think everything's done. Definitely gold bricks. If you hear the video or see, you can hear my voice, you know, my baseline now, because we've been here for an hour. So my. There's not my. It was not my baseline. You can hear my voice getting tighter. Yeah. Here you can hear me talking through my nose. Because I'm like, I don't know, you know? And I. I thought I was done. And then he. He grabs a piece of my clothing, and he says, hey, man, I'm not gonna find anything in here. Like, some. Because I'm not gonna find anything in here. I don't want to. Right. Like some naked pictures of an old lady. Because things are starting to lighten up now. Yeah, right. And I go, I don't know. And I'm watching him with that piece of clothing, just taking his fingers and looking all over it. And again, I don't know. I do it. But the recording. You can hear me go. Because I'm watching him, and I'm going, he's right there at it, and he's gonna find it. And he didn't find it. And he looked right at it, but he didn't find it. And live to fight another day. Praise God, I came out of there. There's several things. There's so many things that when I teach about that block, and it was this, because people always ask me, they're like, hey, country, what would you have said if they would have found something? And I said, I had two responses, and I remember it like it was yesterday. My first response as a jokester and as a defense mechanism would have been to crack a joke. And if he just said, what is this? I'd say, I don't know. Some naked pictures of the old lady. Maybe buy some time, hopefully laugh it off. My only other response was this. The gig's up. I'm an undercover FBI agent. I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court or all hell's getting ready to break loose. But that would have kind of been a bluff, because most of the times, if not all the times I'd been in that clubhouse, the team really couldn't hear me because I had a transmitter. But we're talking, like, 2005, 2006, 2007, you know, buildings everywhere. It's like a cell phone. I mean, it's not near as strong as a cell phone, but things block. You can't hear. And to my knowledge, they'd never been able to hear me when I was in there. What I didn't know is at the end of the night, I go to hand in my equipment. I say, night. It's probably like, four or five in the morning in an undisclosed location. Freezing my tail off, handing over the recording equipment to the case team. The main case team was a case agent, FBI agent Tim Quinn, who's a buddy of mine. We actually went through the academy together. And then there was two task force officers. Sergeant Higginbottom, which everybody called Higgy, from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and Detective Cummings was Brockton pd. That was it. It was us. I mean, every now and then they'd add somebody or something, but for two years, it was us. The night. That night, when the shift started, it was Higgy and Joe Cummings that were on me. And something about that first interaction with Joe Dogs didn't sit right with them. And these are the guys that have been working this crew for years. And they're like, something's not right. They pulled close enough. What I didn't know is they heard everything. Wow. And they had radioed back because it's kind of like the beginning of the shift for everybody. They radioed back to Boston and said, hey, man, they've got Scott in the basement, he's wired, and they've stripping him at gunpoint. So everybody's hauling ass, blue lights and sirens to get down there where I'm at. Wow. And then what I. What I find out is that when I'm handing over my equipment in the middle of the night, and I'm like, holy shit, you could hear me. Well, see, there's so much that goes into that. Because they had gotten to know me as a person and my baseline, they were listening. They could have pulled the trigger at any moment. They knew the inside of that clubhouse. They knew how fortified the door was. Their plan. They had already put their vest on everything. Their plan was to drive the minivan into the cinder block wall next to the door.
- [99:34]
A
What the.
- [99:35]
B
To breach the wall. Because it would have been easier than the door, in their opinion. So I remember handing the equipment over and my buddy Tim, who's the case agent. Agent. Which kind of does put a strain on a relationship. We're buddies. And now he's the case agent. I'm the. I'm the undercover, you know. Unbelievable, dude. He looks at me and he says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, he goes, and I felt like I was in there with you. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't. I'm like, you weren't. I was looking for any friendly face I could find down there now and then. And this is one that's kind of touching. I bought my wife a burner phone. Which everybody's pretty much familiar with now. But basically, you buy a phone, it comes back to nothing. Pay by the pay. Pay for your time card. You can put whatever the hell you want to on there. No name, whatever. And that's what I bought her. Because, I mean, operational security. I don't need to be calling my wife's personal phone from my undercover phone that could be linked, right? So I always called her at the end of. Of a shift, whether it was five in the morning, seven in the morning, I just called her and say, hey, just want you to know everything's good. I'm going to the hotel. I'll call you after I nap. Sometimes she'd just be like, okay, love you. Get off. Sometimes she'd talk to me for a little bit. That night when I called her, the first thing she said was, are you okay? And I said, yeah. Why? And she said, I don't know why. She goes, but at such and such time, she was in McAllen, Texas, with her daughters, driving around. She said, I just got this overwhelming feeling. And she said, I pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for you. So I matched up the time. It's when I was in the basement.
- [101:21]
A
Wow.
- [101:22]
B
Crazy, huh?
- [101:23]
A
That's so weird. Like, what's.
- [101:25]
B
Like, apparently my oh. Signal is pretty strong.
- [101:30]
A
Yeah.
- [101:30]
B
I'm like, sometimes when I teach that part, man, I cry, my wife cries. Sometimes I don't. But it's. That's. That's legit. Yeah. That's a connection, huh?
- [101:40]
A
I mean, no, clearly I was scared. Yeah. No, no. Atheist in a fossil, man. Right? Like, that's. That's the old saying, right? Like, I mean, what a beautiful thing that she could feel it. I mean, I've heard stories similar to that countless times. Like, that's part of the reason, you know, like, maybe, you know, a tertiary reason why, like, I'm a. I'm a believer, right? Like, I believe in God and I have such a faith because of stuff like this, where it's like, how could she have known? How often is she doing that? That she's calling you up, telling you?
- [102:04]
B
Never. I mean, like. I mean, I called her not. But she never said, hey, I felt something. Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, man. Wow.
- [102:12]
A
What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because I'm sitting here in my beautiful tent, as you can see, every week, day in, day out. And people always ask, they say, mark, how do I have a tent like that? I want to. I want to Sit in a beautiful tent and invite a lover, a friend, you know, someone that I appreciate and adore. I want to give them a good time inside my tent. Well, it's easy. Thanks to the good folks over@bluechew.com. that's right. Bluechew is the original OG brand offering chewable tablets. And what do these tablets do? Oh, I'm glad you asked. They are gonna give you the just a stronger, harder and longer lasting sexual performance. That's right. They're gonna help you pitch a tent any place, anywhere. And the best part, it's all done online. That means you don't have to go. Go to a doctor's office and, you know, talk to him. Be like, oh, you know, I'm feeling some type of way. Look, this is not for people that are, you know, lacking necessarily. This is for people to want to have the best experience of their life, whether it's Valentine's Day, birthday, a funeral, who knows, whenever you need it. You never know when you could use bluechew. And we have a special deal for the listeners of this program. That's right. Try your first month of BlueChew for free. That's right. Completely free, Mark, is it going to work for me? Is this, hey, it's free. Why not just try it? Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank BlueChew for sponsoring this podcast. All right, now let's get after it and let's get back to the show. So after he searches everything, goes through all your clothes and he goes, all right, you're good. Does his demeanor change immediately? He.
- [103:46]
B
Oh, immediately.
- [103:47]
A
All right, put your clothes on. Let's go drink.
- [103:49]
B
And so does my time, I go right back to business, even though inside I'm gold bricks. But I go, okay, all right. So that's why I was thinking, since you just got out of jail, I don't want you anywhere close to it. I want you on the outskirts. He's like, yeah, man, that's what I go. I'll do whatever you want out here. I just don't. And we went right back to business.
- [104:04]
A
Wow.
- [104:04]
B
I will say that after the adrenaline dump, I did go out with Joe Dogs and Scott and I legitimately got pissed. Like, I was pissed.
- [104:12]
A
Yeah.
- [104:12]
B
And I'm not saying that's right. I don't think it is right. Because I'm not really Scott Calloway. I'm Scott Payne. I'm undercover. And should I take it personal? But I did. Whether I should have or not, I did right I was pissed. Matter of fact, I was cussing at him.
- [104:29]
A
Well, that's real, though.
- [104:30]
B
Yeah, but I'm like. I'm saying, you know what, man? F you. F all y'all. So y'all show up tomorrow. Guess what I'm gonna do? I'm making you all stripped down in the damn parking lot, you know? And he's like, well, you know, Tex, there's people just a little nervous, man, because this is. This is a guy who's done all kinds of crimes around me, and I already know they're all criminals, right? I. All out of, like, 13 to 15 members, one and a half had a job. One guy. One outlaw member. Excuse me. One outlaw member had a towing company. The other one was a piercer and a tattoo artist, and he didn't work all the time. Yeah, everybody else was a straight thug, man. I mean, home invasion, extortion, stealing, theft. You name it. Dope, of course. And so I'm like, dude. And he. So Joe talks, goes. He goes, man, this is people. People just concerned because, you know, it's just. There's. There's risk involved. And I said, no, Joe, it's because it's illegal. What we're doing is illegal. Let's make no bones about it. Of course it's risky. I'm not making anybody do anything. If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
- [105:32]
A
Right?
- [105:33]
B
I said, but you're sitting here and you're talking about. You worried about going to jail. I said, what do you think happens to me if this gets screwed up? And I used, like I told you earlier, real stories about the cartel. I'm like, they don't just kill me. They torture me. They torture my family. They torture my dogs, my kids. And that's speaking truth. But I applied it to the undercover situation.
- [105:54]
A
Yeah.
- [105:55]
B
So next day happens.
- [105:57]
A
Well, when you walk out of the clubhouse that night, like, do you feel like the major dump? That you're like, okay, I'm out of there?
- [106:03]
B
I felt the major dump once we came out of that basement.
- [106:05]
A
Yeah, Yeah.
- [106:06]
B
I was like, yeah, I'm just fucking. Give me another jack. Give me another Jack. They weren't even touching me. My adrenaline was. I was like, you were pissed. Another one. So I didn't sleep hardly at all that night. If I did, maybe like, 30 minutes, I get up the next day, we go, we do the deal. Everything goes off without a hitch. So now you got a drug conspiracy on a larger scale than the one we already had with them. And then we start moving Forward from there, and you kind of go where the case takes you. I will tell you another significant event is Clothesline did not show up to do the deal the next day. And that pissed me off.
- [106:41]
A
Why didn't he show up?
- [106:42]
B
Well, I didn't know, but I was pissed. And I let it be known. Scott Calloway let it be known that you mean to tell me you're supposed to be my boy, and you got enough balls to pull me down in the damn basement, strip me at gunpoint point, and then you can't even show up? Well, everybody knew there was a riff, and Big Scott was like, hey, they. This ain't something that can be dealt with over the phone. Next time, Texas up here, they can deal it. They. They can handle it man to man, face to face. So let's fast forward a month or two. I come back up, Clothesline comes into the place I'm at. I know I'm ready. I'm jacked. I'm like, let's go. I don't like you for what you did to me. And he looks at me and he says, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I'm like, all the time in the world? No. Last time you asked me that, I ended up naked in the damn basement. I don't think I got a minute. I don't think I got shit for you. He's like, no, man, come on. So we go in the back of this local cantina bar we used to go to, and we go back in the kitchen area. And he's like. He goes, look, man. And that's when I start finding out that the call came down from the top, which should show you. Is it an organization? No, we're all centralized. I don't know anybody else's business, really. How did the national president know there's going to be a dope deal in Boston, south of Boston? How did that. And how did he know to check me? You know, it's nothing you can charge somebody on, right? But, you know, I mean, it's an organization, right? And again, for a conspiracy, all it takes is two people. As long as one of us isn't an undercover source.
- [108:21]
A
That's right.
- [108:21]
B
You know what I mean? So I go in the back with him, and in my mind, I'm prepared f you for a fight. We're gonna fight. Whatever. And then he starts telling me all that stuff. And he looks. The look on his face is like he's just a whooped puppy. And he says, man, I know something to this effect. He said, I. I was born to be an outlaw. He said, I know I'm either going to die young or I want to die in prison. He goes, that's my life. And he goes, and these are my brothers, and I've grown up with a lot of them. He said, but I really don't have that many friends. He says, somebody that I know would take a bullet for me, and I'd take a bullet for them. And in my head, I start looking at his face and I'm thinking, don't you. Don't you say it. Don't you say it it? And he says, and you're one of those guys. So now I'm like, oh, mother, you know, so that night when I called my wife, she's like, whatever. How's it going? How did the day go? First thing I said is like, I'm a dick. I'm such a dick. I'm like, this dude loves me, you know, it made me feel bad, you know. And again, you know, the, you know, the line. I'm not crossing over. I'm not going dark side. I'm not going to become a 1%, you know, if I did. I don't think anybody able to infiltrate me, though. Just saying, I got small. I got on job. On the job training. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm like, you know, they're not your friend, you know, But I mean, they are relationships you're building, relationships that you are essentially going to betray. So how do you do that? How do you rationalize that in your mind to where it doesn't have an adverse impact on your, you know, your psyche?
- [110:02]
A
I mean, does it make it a little easier after they strip you down like that, that next day when the, you know, SWAT comes in? Are you. Is a little party, like, yeah, fuck these guys.
- [110:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there was a. There was a time with Scott because me and Scott bonded so much. It was scary how close we were. Like, we could finish each other's sentences. I mean, I. I love partying with a guy. I like the guy. He could get crazy. Yeah. And he was a criminal, but, I mean, I could have been him.
- [110:31]
A
Yeah.
- [110:31]
B
At that proverbial fork in the road, you know, I went this way, you know, went into law enforcement. But there was a point in the case where, like, he had a newborn daughter and I had a newborn daughter roughly the same age. So they're basically that first year, they're making the same sounds, kind of doing the same movements, learning their voice and stuff. And there I am holding his daughter on my lap. And you know, and it crosses your mind, man. You're like, he likes to drink, I like to drink. He likes to fight, I like to fight. He likes tattoos, I like tattoos. Ride, workout, all this stuff. And then he had a bunch of stickers on his refrigerator. Pictures, stickers all over the refrigerator. I'm holding his daughter and I'm thinking, man, we have a lot. I mean, like a lot in common, and we're very much alike. And then I look over it as, as I'm. As I'm wrestling with this in my mind because again, you're. You've kind of out there on an hour island. You go back to the undercover school, you meet your peers and mentors and people you're mentoring, and you find out, oh, I'm not the only one out here on an island. Now I'm hanging with my. My brothers and sisters and we're helping each other. It's therapeutic, right? But I'm sitting there and I'm looking at that refrigerator and I'm going, and I'm seeing sticker after sticker. And then I saw one that said wwsd. And I was like, I looked and it said, what would Satan do? Not what would Jesus do? It said, what would Satan do? And I went, oh, yeah, I know where I'm at that. Yeah, you got. You're gonna have to go down if you're doing something wrong, you know?
- [111:54]
A
Yeah.
- [111:54]
B
And that's. That's kind of what happened. The case went on. We. We ended up. There was at one point where the Jacksonville division wanted me to move down to Patch under the new north regional president. South, Sorry, not north. Southeast regional president. His street name was Hillbilly. And we had bonded so much that the case team believed that I could move to Florida and patch under him. And I said yes. But what I didn't know is my body was already shot. I'd been going for about three years, non stop. And I'm not saying I'm tough. I'm not saying that there's not. There's plenty of tougher people out there. But I met my threshold. The threshold I found at that point in time in my life was that I'd been going too long and not taking care of myself. I didn't know how to relax anymore. All of my breathing, I was stressed. All of my breathing was in my chest. Yeah, I was a. I was a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants. I was taking. I was drinking the strongest cups of coffee I could make. Followed by three hydroxy cuts. You know, first thing in the morning after waking up and you can still hear whiskey and eggs swishing in your belly, you know? Yeah, I had an anxiety attack. I mean, I drank all that. I mean, it was basically an anxiety cocktail. And I was doing a hotel room workout. Body weights, you know, mountain climbers, burpees, push ups, sit ups, squats, stuff like that. And I came up and didn't have any air, and I. I panicked and. But I didn't stop. I just. Another undercover knocked on the door, we talked, I took a nap, and then I went right back out with the Outlaws and the Mongols that night. Probably should have went home. I mean.
- [113:43]
A
Yeah. All that cortisol just crushes your body.
- [113:45]
B
Yeah.
- [113:46]
A
I don't care who you are.
- [113:46]
B
Like, probably should. Probably should have went home. I got. Like I said, I got to the point to where I wouldn't take care of myself. My motto or the. What I tried to live by in the FBI especially, was if I'm above average on my squad, meaning that I have a lot of the cases, the big cases, big sources. I'm a big hitter, you know. Then I didn't see where management could have a reason to tell me I couldn't be on swat, or I couldn't go do this SWAT school, or I couldn't do this undercover. But what I started doing is just. I stopped taking days off.
- [114:22]
A
Yeah.
- [114:22]
B
I was just. I was an idiot because I got paid the same amount of money as somebody else that went home after seven hours of work.
- [114:29]
A
Yeah. But at a certain point, working is easier for the stress load than relaxing.
- [114:34]
B
Yes.
- [114:34]
A
Right.
- [114:35]
B
Well, I forgot how to relax. Yeah.
- [114:36]
A
Like, oh, a day freak out.
- [114:37]
B
Yeah.
- [114:38]
A
Oh, I'm gonna go to the beach. Like, what am I gonna do at the beach? Just be anxious all day. Whereas if you're working, you can mitigate the anxiety, you can mitigate the stress a little bit.
- [114:45]
B
And to put me in a. Like to put me in a room where it's quiet and shut the door, I'll probably gonna nut out.
- [114:50]
A
Yeah.
- [114:51]
B
Maybe 15 years ago I wouldn't, but I'll probably. No doubt. But you put me in a car chase at 120 miles an hour and I'm cool.
- [114:58]
A
Yeah.
- [114:58]
B
You know, something happens, I react, and then maybe three hours later, my hands start shaking because I realize what the hell happened or how close it was to dying or my kid dying. And. Yeah. You just do what you've trained to do. Kind of.
- [115:13]
A
Yeah. I mean, I like, again, what. What we do you and I is very different. Right. Like, I don't. I don't deal with even a modicum of the stress you deal with, but even just like. Like between standup and, like, feeling the anxiety from that. That's why I like motorcycles. Because when you're riding a bike, all of your focus goes into one thing.
- [115:29]
B
Right?
- [115:30]
A
Like your. Your. Your brain just kind of silences everything else. Everything. You're dealing with all the other bullshit, and you can just kind of lock in. And I imagine it's similar on a way bigger scale with. With what you're doing. Like when you're in a car chase, when you're, you know, doing a SWAT thing, like, you are able to silence all the other bullshit and focus in and all that anxiety kind of goes away for the time being.
- [115:48]
B
And let's be transparent, Parent. You like the adrenaline.
- [115:52]
A
Yeah.
- [115:52]
B
You know what I mean?
- [115:53]
A
Yeah.
- [115:53]
B
We're adrenaline junkies. And I've met so many adrenaline junkies now that I'm on the other side of the hill, as they say, there's nothing but get better from here. I met so many adrenaline junkies that have hard time with anxiety and relaxing because we haven't.
- [116:11]
A
Yeah.
- [116:11]
B
You know, which really starts tying into a lot of things. And now when I teach this block to law enforcement or wherever, or speak about it at citizens academies or whatever I'm doing, I've turned it into more of a mental health thing. Because fire. Fire. Law enforcement and military are number one in suicide. We're number one in divorce. We're number one in alcoholism, which you could throw in pills or whatever now. Right. And we're also number one for dying within five years after retiring.
- [116:45]
A
Really?
- [116:46]
B
Yeah. So who signs up for that?
- [116:48]
A
Yeah, that's not included in the pitch, I don't think. Yeah.
- [116:51]
B
Oh, hell yes. Well, I'm a young, dumb idiot. I probably would have still said, yeah. Yeah, Especially this will make me bigger and stronger, but I'm gonna die earlier. Well, hell, yeah.
- [116:59]
A
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.
- [117:01]
B
Die big and die in a big coffin, you know?
- [117:03]
A
And then you start to commiserate with clothesline, where you're like, this guy thinks he's gonna die young. Like, yeah, I'm doing this. I'm on the good side.
- [117:09]
B
Yeah.
- [117:09]
A
But there's also a little party that's probably like, I'm gonna die young too. Who gives a right? Like, yeah. And I'm sure maybe not for you, but some of these other law enforcement guys, it's like, yeah, like, I'm here for the job. I'm here for.
- [117:18]
B
Where do you go? I mean, a big thing now is. I mean, look, I get it. The pendulum swung. Defund police, all that stuff. But it would. It would be like saying an entire race is trash because of two bad actors.
- [117:36]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [117:37]
B
You know what I mean? Yeah. And I get it.
- [117:38]
A
It.
- [117:39]
B
Especially if it's pushed out there and shoved down people's throats. And don't get me wrong, man. I mean, there's. There's few things a good cop hates worse than a bad cop. Yeah. I mean, there's something to be said if you've been laying out in the woods for two months on a narcotic squad, learning patterns, getting evidence, not eating worth the crap, doing all this, and you're getting ready to do the takedown, and you find out, because they don't know who your source is. You find out that. That everybody knows we're coming the next day. They know what cars we're driving. So we hold off. And you're like, how in the hell did they find out? And you find out it's a cop that owes eight grand on one of these. Oh, my gosh, man. Oh, it makes me just want to slap somebody.
- [118:18]
A
Yep.
- [118:19]
B
Because slapping would be more offensive than busting. You know what I mean? But, yeah, it's. It's. It's tough. And then you get into these. The pendulum swinging into. There's no support for you. And it's not a thankful. I mean, I've always said. I say always. Pretty much my entire law enforcement career. We're. We're offensive linemen.
- [118:39]
A
Yeah.
- [118:40]
B
And it took me a while to realize, and I'm like, wait a minute. If the team's winning, it's because the running backs, the receivers, and the quarterback are awesome. But if the team's losing, it's because the offensive line sucks.
- [118:50]
A
Yep.
- [118:51]
B
And you're like, they don't want you till they need you.
- [118:52]
A
Yeah.
- [118:53]
B
And that's. It's bad. And there are things that need to change, and it's always going to swing back and forth. But, man, I can't help but think that a lot of that has to do with the suicide rates going up. Up. You know? Nobody cares.
- [119:05]
A
Yeah.
- [119:05]
B
You know, I mean, imagine going out there and getting spit on all the time and antagonized, and you can't even. And then depending on where you're working, you can't do your job, because if you do what's lawfully right and what you've been taught to do on a deadly force continuum, or whatever you want to talk about use of force or whatever, you do it and you're hung out to dry and you're indicted. How the hell am I going to go do my job as a cop? So you start seeing across the country these. So you and I are on the beat right now. Armed robbery in progress right down the street. All right, we'll take it. So anyway, man, tell me about that, what you did this weekend when you were fishing. What'd you catch? You know what I mean? Yeah, we'll show up when it's over. I'm not saying that that's definitely not right, but it's.
- [119:48]
A
But you start weighing your. You start weighing the.
- [119:50]
B
And there have been plenty of instances where cops were killed and you start doing the after action. You start looking. And they work for a department where they got in trouble for a use of force before or they got hung out to drive by their sheriff. Now they know, policy wise they are within the deadly force policy. We don't shoot the maim. That's wild, wild west. And that's a lawsuit. If I'm doing it, I'm. We're center mass, you know, thoracic region, headshots. And we're eliminating the threat. And then we move right from that into stopping the dying. Yeah, that may mean the person I just shot, I'm the one putting the tourniquet on them, you know.
- [120:24]
A
But like in the way that you commiserate and understand criminals and criminality and have empathy for what they go through, I think it's helpful for criminals. And I think criminals get it more than the average person, but also just the average population to understand what law enforcement goes through and the stress and the constant. Just like that, cortisol pumping and the lack of resources.
- [120:44]
B
Some of the best things I've seen, one of them happened after Ferguson and this, you know, I'm not trying to piss anybody off one way or the other, but look at the facts and talk about the facts. People still go around and say, hands up, don't shoot. It never happens. Happen. It never happened. If you see the. If you see the videos afterwards, it's unfortunate anybody had to die that day, but that young cop was getting his ass beat and they were trying to take the gun from him. So. But a town gets burnt down and it's wrong, and what can we do to make that not happen again? But what was happening in all the outrage? I can't remember where or what venue, but they took reporters and people like that and law enforcement brought them in. And they just ran the simple scenarios where you've got the video. We call it a fast machine, but it's a. You know, we've got a gun that registers. It doesn't shoot real bullets, but when you shoot the screen registers it. You're going through a scenario that we tell you to talk to the screen and you're okay, okay, where's the bad guy at? Blah, blah, blah, and this, that and the other. There's multiple endings that the person running the machine can choose. But when we do it, it at the FBI or even if I ran it on force, on force scenario. Now we're out there with our mask and stuff on. We're using, you know, Glock 17T shooting a marking cartridge, 9 millimeter rounds. Once you. The scenario is over. Especially if you use deadly force and you shot somebody, we have our legal person sitting right there, like the number one legal person of the office. And they say, okay, tell me what happened. You know, what better place to learn if you did something wrong and correct it than there? You don't want it to happen out on the street. So they brought people in from the street, had them just go through a couple of scenarios like that, and they all walked out going, holy. How do, man? How do you make that decision that quick?
- [122:31]
A
Yeah. And that those training systems also aren't cheap. Right. Like you got. You got to pay the lawyer, you got to get all the tech. This is why defund the police never really made sense to me. I think it's fun. The police in the right ways.
- [122:41]
B
Yeah, right.
- [122:42]
A
Like funding different departments and even, you know, FBI to get these systems, get these training systems, get mental health, you know, like organizations, even if you don't get it there.
- [122:51]
B
And I'll say this when I teach, because I'm like, there. Is that the old stereotype or, you know, proverbial? Like if you tell the person that's the psychiatrist or psychologist at your department, you're done. You'll never get. They're going to leak it. You're going to. Okay, I understand that. Go somewhere else. They don't need to know anything about it. Yeah, go to a church. Go to find. And if you find a. If you find a psychiatrist or a psychologist, you visit and y'all don't get along. You know, people call it church hurt with church. You go to church and get burned. Well, you. Maybe you got a psychology. Hurt. You went there.
- [123:23]
A
Yeah.
- [123:23]
B
You got burned. I'm gonna give you one. My old pastor said, he said, how many people in here had food Poison. Well, almost every hand goes up. Thousand people, all hands go up. And he said, did you stop eating?
- [123:36]
A
Right. Yeah. You had a mat.
- [123:38]
B
Yeah, I haven't eaten at Quiznos since. But no. I mean, yeah, I don't even know if they're still in business. Yeah. But they tried to kill me once, but I never ate there again. But I never stopped eating. Subs.
- [123:48]
A
Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, everyone has a bad teacher. You know what I mean? Like, they don't care about the job. They screw you over.
- [123:54]
B
Yeah.
- [123:54]
A
You know, education's not bad. Right. Like, so I think it. I think the same thing goes here.
- [123:59]
B
I think that's a big thing. I. I talk about. I just love spreading college. I love learning. I learn every time I run a scenario. If I'm like, every school we do, we're like, oh, man, really? He's like, I've never seen my. Do that. Well, that did work, you know, kind of thing. Or I'm meeting people who may be. Academia. Never even had 30 seconds of law enforcement, but we're coming together at a table, and I'm trying to learn from them, and I'm trying to let them know what I've learned. And, you know, I don't come in. You don't come in and go, well, you're an idiot, because blah, blah, blah. That's very interesting. Do you have a source of information where you got that? No. No. Well, let me tell you, in my experience. And then you can. I mean, I can waffle. I mean, put it on the table. I came here and go, absolutely not. This, this, and this. And you say, yeah, but this is what happened. And I'll go, ooh. Well, based on that new knowledge, I completely go against what I just said.
- [124:48]
A
Okay, so I want to know about some of these neo Nazi groups you infiltrated. The. The. The ideological threads that get into these organizations, and, like, the hate component and then the Satanism component to the people on the outside, someone like me that grew up in the suburbs, it seems bizarre and sort of hard to wrap your mind around. Like, I'm like, there's no Satanists out here. You know, but evidently, that is. That is not the case. So can you break me down? Some of those cases?
- [125:11]
B
I actually went undercover. I was kind of a backup undercover. I was a backup plan. I was at a satanic concert festival. And, you know, I'm a musician and stuff. And I remember they called me. They go, oh, country. You can go, he. He's. He's a. And it was. It was a It was a white supremacist organization that was going to be there. And. And they're like, oh, you're a musician? And I'm like, yeah. And I go, what? What is this? And they're like. I go, is it like. I say death metal? And they go, no, it's black metal. And I go, what is black metal? So I said, send me some names of the bands. I started pulling them up on YouTube. So, like, what in the hell is this? And I'm like, why do you think I could. And they're like, well, you know, I said, okay. I said, let me ask you. I said, it's at a bar, right? And they go, yeah. And I go, do they serve whiskey? And they go, yes. And I go, okay, I'll do it. Because that's why I was like, I don't know how else I'm gonna be able to stand there with a straight face.
- [126:02]
A
I mean, black metal, it sounds like it would be just a bunch of black guys doing death metal, which would be awesome. You're like, oh, this is. This is death metal, but a little more groovy.
- [126:10]
B
Yeah, you see, like, that dark goth. It's usually a lot of hoodies, but you start. If you start trying to read it, I mean, there were bands there from all over the world. Sabat Hell Witch. I'm trying to think, man. My personal favorite, Satanic Gut ritual. Yeah.
- [126:26]
A
It's just all because, like, in my mind, you see some of these groups and you're like, oh, they're just trying to be edgy. You know, they're just trying to do something to be provocative, get the evangelical right all up in arms. But some of them are actual Satanists.
- [126:36]
B
I mean, I didn't hang out with them or infiltrate them, but I was just like, everything's on a delay. Like, even the vocals is like, hail Satan. Satan. You know? And I'm like, oh, boy. You know, of course I screwed up. I was talking to a girl there, and I had seen her the night before, so I'm like, okay. The next night, I'm like, let me kind of meander over, hey, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah. Shooting stuff. She told me about some horrific car accident, and they didn't start doing physical therapy until like, three months after the sir. And I'm like, however she said it, I looked down at her and I said. I said, how long? She said. I said, God bless you. I mean, or Satan or whatever.
- [127:18]
A
So. So what's up with these satanic groups? Like, is it.
- [127:21]
B
So they're not all. So the way you ask the question is it for me, it's very broad, so maybe I should do it like this. The Neo Nazi movement has been around for a while. A lot of the older ways was Christian identity. So it's not satanic. They take the Bible and they twist it. The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they take that and twist it and they'll say, well, well, okay, kind of the same story, but let's paint it like this. Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden. Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree. Or sorry, forbidden fruit of the tree, whatever, however you want to word it. In their mind that forbidden fruit was a sexual act and the serpent was still Satan, but as a black man, man. So in their Christian identity, not to be confused with Christian Christianity and Christian identity, they say that the snake Satan, a man of color, had sex with Eve and their offspring was Cain. And everything from Cain down is the mud race, non white. But Adam and Eve had sex and Abel was born. And Abel is the pure white race all the way down. And they just twist stuff like that all the time.
- [128:46]
A
Wait till they found out Abel was Jewish. That's gonna blow your mind.
- [128:50]
B
Right as Jesus. Yeah, right. You know, Jesus ain't you?
- [128:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, Jesus is Jewish. Like it's just so crazy. But I'm pretty sure the Nazis did the same thing in the Third Reich that there were people. Because obviously, you know, Germany is a very, you know, Christian Lutheran country. And a lot of these high ranking Nazis would use parts of the Bible and say, like, oh, Christ died for all white people or God, Christ died for all Aryans.
- [129:10]
B
Yeah, well, you know, the Neo Nazis under Hitler and stuff, they really were big in the Norse mythology too, right?
- [129:15]
A
Absolutely. Looking for Thor's handler. Like Heinrich Himmler was sending, you know, people out, like lost art.
- [129:21]
B
Yeah.
- [129:21]
A
Legit looking for, you know, ancient, you know, Norse mythology and that. That's the true area.
- [129:25]
B
Super soldiers. Your whole base story for Captain America. Steroids.
- [129:29]
A
The ubermensch.
- [129:30]
B
Yeah, steroids, man.
- [129:32]
A
It's strange to me that these biker groups after World War II take on a lot of this Nazi identity. Obviously not all, but, you know, some of these biker groups that come out of this post war era then start wearing the bolts and start wearing swastikas and, you know, different symbols. You know, it seems strange, like a big fu though. Is that what it is?
- [129:49]
B
I didn't see. I mean, again, this is just my experience. I mean, I've read the books, I've seen the Documentaries. But the ones that I've been around and infiltrated, I didn't see like a whole satanic or a whole Nazi movement. It's just like a big fu. Like even if you tried to ask them, they'd be like, like the outlaw in Taunton. They were all getting the, the cross hammer tattoo. Well, that's hammer skins. It was a claw hammer. Was a claw hammer or was it a ball peen hammer? Either way, could you pull it up?
- [130:17]
A
Yeah, yeah, that'd be interesting to see.
- [130:19]
B
Either way, it was crossed hammers. Well, that's, that's hammer skin, man.
- [130:22]
A
And what is. What is hammer skin?
- [130:24]
B
Skinhead. Skinhead, which would be your white supremacist with a white tank top. Wife beater. I'm trying to think of the tattoo.
- [130:36]
A
Yeah. Maybe drop tattoo in there and see, see what that pulls up. And so all these guys were getting this tattoo and did they know what it meant? Were they just trying to be.
- [130:44]
B
Well, they said the outlaws up there because I pointed it out. I go, you know, that's a, you know, that's hammer skins. And they were like, oh, that means taking care of business. And I'm like, okay, all right. Yeah, it. So you've got the Christian identity movement, but then you've got paganism. So like they would literally say Christ gang versus pay gang, you know, and then like they'd meet up and a bunch of white supremacists would have it out in a field or a parking lot and then afterward they would all hang out. You know, I, I don't get it. But. So that's the Christian identity. Now where you're getting into is the accelerationist Movement. Movement. And that's the base. That's the group I infiltrated. I say I, I was the undercover is a we. You know, it takes a village. Right. But a lot of times I learned the in depth stuff just by infiltrating. I don't. I didn't know everything, but did I need to. I'll just ask you. Tell me what it is you do, you know? Right. So there's a movie getting ready to come out, if it's not out already, called the Order. That, that kind of focuses on a group called the order in the 80s, and they were basically accelerationists, but they didn't call it that yet. But that's kind of the ideology. They were legit. They were doing like armed car robberies and stuff like that. I'm sorry, taking off armored cars, funding their thing. And it's kind of like militia meets white supremacy. So now fast forward, forward to me dealing with the base because there were some other groups I went in and then I've done some one offs where it was a white supremacist that wanted to blow up a family or a white supremacist that wanted to shoot up a synagogue. You know, I end up giving them the weapon or providing them with a weapon at their request and, and then of course they're a felon with a weapon just to get them off the street. But accelerationism is explained like this. An accelerationist does not believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. Some white supremacists do, they had the entryism where they try to actually infiltrate clean cut looking white guys, but they're actually white supremacists. They're neo Nazis, but they're not tattooed up, they're clean shaven, well dressed and they show up at events and they, they will either try to infiltrate the government through the right side and hopefully in their mind twist it to be racist, which I really don't understand. We would know, right? You know, if all of a sudden only white people can go into this restaurant, I'm pretty sure there's going to be an uproar. Right, right, but. Or they will infiltrate the left and try to bring it down from within. Those believe there is a political solution. So the accelerationists don't believe there's a political solution. They believe that society is going to collapse either on its own, on or from man made events. And they want to speed it up, but they want to speed it up through like guerrilla warfare tactics. So like poison a water supply, derail a train, murder somebody here, take down a power grid here, stuff like that, just to create chaos. And with all those ideologies it usually always ends with them ending up with an ethno state, their own white stake. So, so sometimes no forethought, definitely no afterthought, you know what I mean? Like we're going to take over the Appalachian Mountains and it's going to be our Pacific Northwest, upper peninsula of Michigan. We're going to have our own ethno state. What about the cops?
- [134:15]
A
Yeah.
- [134:16]
B
What about the National Guard? What about the army, the navy, the Air Force, the Marines, Coast Guard, I.
- [134:22]
A
Don'T know, I mean even just the economy, like the business, like who's going to.
- [134:26]
B
But they want their own. And I mean so, so this is the way it was explained to me. There's a guy out there, longtime white supremacist, his name is James Mason, he Wrote the book Siege. But Siege is basically a bunch of articles, a bunch of interviews. One of his people he idolized was Charles Manson. I mean, if you're looking for a good role model. So you say you killed a few people?
- [134:53]
A
Yeah.
- [134:54]
B
Is that a swastika on your head? Because if it is, it's really a crappy tattoo. But I'm just saying it's the Hindu.
- [134:59]
A
One into one, all right? It's about peace.
- [135:02]
B
This is a safe place. You're safe. You can share anything with me.
- [135:05]
A
Yeah, I think he was a musician. Maybe that's what they were talking about. Maybe he, like. I think he auditioned for the Monkeys. I'm pretty sure Charles Manson.
- [135:11]
B
Yeah.
- [135:11]
A
Isn't that wild?
- [135:12]
B
Did he really?
- [135:13]
A
I'm pretty sure.
- [135:14]
B
Holy. I love the Monkeys.
- [135:15]
A
Yeah. It almost had Charles Manson in it.
- [135:17]
B
Hey, hey.
- [135:18]
A
We're the Monkeys. Exactly.
- [135:20]
B
That's crazy. With the van. Yeah. Right here is a bullet.
- [135:23]
A
The Scotland Yard detective's hand trembled as he opened the lid. Letter. Dear Boss, it began on this day in 1888. Jack the Ripper's most infamous message arrived, taunting police with details that only the true killer could know. But what the letter revealed about the Ripper's true identity would remain hidden for decades. Now let's travel across The Atlantic, where 115 settlers vanished without a trace. The lost colony of Roanoke. Abandoned homes, untouched plates of food, and a single word carved into a tree. Croatoan. To this day, it remains America's oldest unsolved mystery. These aren't ghost stories. They're real historical events from Today in History, the newsletter that delivers history's most gripping mystery straight to your inbox. From unsolved crimes to unexplained disappearances. From ancient enigmas to modern conspiracies. Ready to unlock history's greatest secrets? Scan the QR code now or click the link in the description to sign up for Today in History.
- [136:23]
B
So James wrote this book, and he created Atomwaffen, which is man. It transferred Atomwaffen. Is it nuclear? That's it. Thank you, sir. That's the cross hammers. But they didn't have the cog wheel. They just had the cross hammers on their neck.
- [136:39]
A
I see.
- [136:39]
B
But it's very. I mean, that's it. And I'm like, dude, that's hammer skin. They're like, I just means taking care of business. And I'm like, who brought that up here? I bet you it was hillbilly. And Hillbilly was the first hammer skin ever become an outfit law.
- [136:48]
A
Oh, really?
- [136:49]
B
They Say, but he would do cross. He would do. He would go to white supremacy rallies and recruit for outlaws and vice versa. So. All right, so James Mason. Siege is all about that. It's all about that ideology. And they call it siege culture. Right. In the accelerationist movement, they. You. You hear things like, when were you red pilled? When were you red pill? Or his mom's blue pilled. You know, so it's all Matrix. It's from the movie the Matrix where Neo has a choice. Is it Neo?
- [137:27]
A
Yep.
- [137:28]
B
Who's the black guy? I mean, I know it's Lawrence Fishburne, but who's he play?
- [137:31]
A
What's his name? Morpheus.
- [137:33]
B
Morpheus. Thank you. I gotta go back and watch him. Sorry. Keanu and Lawrence Fishburn. I didn't do like that one reporter with Samuel L. Jackson and he called him Lawrence Fishburne.
- [137:43]
A
No.
- [137:44]
B
Oh, you gotta watch it is.
- [137:45]
A
Oh, that's a tough look.
- [137:46]
B
Like, man, I love you on this. So and so and so. And Samuel Jackson's like, yeah. And the dude tries. He tries to reel it back in. Yeah, it's a tough look like, man, land that plane, dude.
- [137:58]
A
It's hard mixing up like two black people in your town. Mixing up two of the most famous black guys ever. Like, you can't do that.
- [138:04]
B
Hey, I loved you in the Matrix. I'm Samuel Jackson. Right My wrong.
- [138:10]
A
Oh, damn.
- [138:11]
B
So there's a scene in the Matrix and he offers him. If you take the blue pill, you'll go back to your regular life and be oblivious to what's really going on. But if you take the red pill, you'll be racist. You'll be.
- [138:22]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [138:23]
B
You will see in color. So that's the idea, which I do find a little bit comical because that scene has a black man in it. And that's what they base their whole thing. Yeah, but Morpheus, he was not really black. He. Yeah, so you get all these crazy ideologies or beliefs. Not because the ideology is siege culture. And it's that whole thing, guerrilla warfare tactics, taking things down. Like, don't be on the corner with your signs. And that doesn't do shit. That's what they say now. It does nothing. If you really want to help the white race, blah, blah, blah, blah, you do this stuff. So he created Atomwaffen. And then you have some people say the base was a splinter group. I don't think it was. The base was like an umbrella group. So everybody pretty much that I met in the base was also a member of something else. So you might Be an Adam Waffen member. But you're in the base as well. You might be Green Brigade, but you're in the base as well. You know. What's the one that just came back? I can't think of it right now.
- [139:26]
A
It's a white supremacy group.
- [139:28]
B
Yeah, it's skipping my brain. It's slipping by right now.
- [139:33]
A
That's an interesting distinction that you might have guys.
- [139:35]
B
Patriot Flake, Patriot Florida Front.
- [139:36]
A
Patriot Front. So you have some guys that are in like the, the gang that are kind of, you know, doing more of the crime side. And then there are guys that are in sort of the ideological political side and then sometimes they cross over.
- [139:48]
B
Let me clarify it for you. The entryism crew that I mentioned that are clean cut white guys, they don't cross over with accelerationists. That's just another neo Nazi belief system. But they're not accelerationists. They believe they can be. There can be a political solution by infiltrating and turning right. Whereas an accelerationist doesn't give a shit about the game. You tell you what accelerationist does. An accelerationist sits up on the hill and when they see defund the police and they see towns being burnt down and they see gang violence and fighting and, and, and courthouses and police departments being damaged and taken over, they sitting up on a hill clapping, right? They're like, kill it. Yeah, we're going to come down when it's over and we're going to clean house. Wow. So when I got in the base or I was applying to be in the base, I did. I knew a little bit about siege. I'd read some stuff because that's siege culture. So when they explained that to me, they asked me about, you know, had I read siege, were there things that I, that I liked. But it was, it was Nazaro who was the head, even though they always said there's no leader of the base. Bullshit. It was, it was Ronaldo Nazaro. Yeah, he was, he was calling the shots from St. Petersburg, Russia. Right.
- [141:06]
A
Was he in Russia at the time when he was. Yeah, he was in Russia the whole time.
- [141:09]
B
Well, he came to the States, at least on one visit, but I would venture to say he's on a no fly list.
- [141:16]
A
Right.
- [141:16]
B
Still to this day. Which, I mean, let him fly in here, figure out what he's doing, you know. But that was a, that was a case decision back then anyway. So I, we find wind of the group because our world working partners, you know, our partners overseas, whether it's Australia, uk, whatever, and they're seeing this stuff because again, this is online. A lot of it is online. So you can be a member and be in the uk you can be a member and live somewhere where they don't even allow guns. And you're trying to figure out how to get guns, but you can make knives, you can do whatever. And that's, that's. We started getting wind of that. We started, I say we, as the FBI and law enforcement started seeing a couple of monikers that were popping up in certain chat groups like on Telegram and stuff like that. They were just really spewing some crazy stuff. So much. So at one point we were all kind of wondering, is that guy an undercover? Because there's another thing you'll hear in the, in the, in the, the accelerationist or neo Nazi world online they'll be like, that's fed talk. You know, if you start posting some really radical stuff, they're like, hey, that's fed talk. In other words, you're going to draw the attention of the feds. They'll also might say, hey Mark, you're glowing a dude's glows, saying you're a snitcher and undercover because you're who you know better than to do that. We'll DM it, keep it off the main chat, DM it to each other, give it that wall off. But yeah, there was this one guy that went by the moniker tmb, the Militant Buddhist. And man, he was spewing some crazy stuff. Nazaro under his old monikers, Norman Spear, Roman Wolf. And he had another one before that, probably more. But he was spouting some crazy stuff until the base got infiltrated kind of for the first time they got docs doxed. Which for the listeners that don't know doxing is basically outing somebody. You know, like now we, the, the left is very, very good at far left. They will go out there and they will, they will put your name, your address and next thing you know you've got people protesting at your kids school, protesting at your home, protesting at your work. You lose your job. Cool, right? Pretty, pretty significant tax tactic. But what happens when you do that and there's no repercussions? Well now, now you're far right or going, how many more brothers have to fall before we take retaliation? So hate begets hate, right? You see what I'm saying?
- [143:50]
A
Yeah. If it's just doxing with no follow up, no law enforcement.
- [143:53]
B
Yeah.
- [143:53]
A
Then it's just, yeah, now you're creating martyrs.
- [143:55]
B
Yeah. But you show up and you spit in My face and you won't. Yeah, it's. It's. So, again, the, the siege mentality is the. That. That. That there's no solution and we want to speed up the collapse of society.
- [144:09]
A
And it's congregating online primarily.
- [144:11]
B
Yeah, one of the, One of the. Well, the. So, okay, good point. One of the groups that I didn't mention the name of, that I infiltrated for that five months, they rarely ever met up. And I'm like, are we going to meet? Are we just going to sit here and spew this stuff all day long? You know, we're the ones in the States. I mean, it was like pulling teeth to me. Meet, you know, as an undercover in a case team. We want to meet. I'm like, well, are you going to do something or not? You know, so that one. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't. We didn't really meet a lot. The base, their whole recruiting thing was, is we're a survivalist group. So it's militia meets white supremacy. It's learning how to live off the land, learning how to prepare for what they call the boogaloo. They may have changed it now, but it was always called the boogaloo. Kind of similar to the same boogaloo that's in the militia groups, but basically it's D Day. The boogaloo kickoff is that day when our ethno state starts. We start murdering people. We start taking stuff down and we end up with their own ethno state in the base. Nazaro had property in the Pacific Northwest. The crew I was in was looking to set up an ethno state in the Appalachian Mountain. And then, like I said, there was another group out of Detroit that were already looking to set up an ethno state in a base ethno state in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. And they had already reportedly recruited a former chief of police who was no longer a chief of police because of his conflict of interests. And they recruited one of the members, mothers, and they red pilled her, right? They red pilled her and she's a nurse. So they're actually saying, hey, we can have our women, we can have our children. We're going to have our own water supply. We're going to do this. We're going to do. We're going to run our own compound. You know, I mean, Branch Davidians.
- [146:02]
A
Yeah, it's Waco.
- [146:03]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. Maybe a slight ruby ridge or something, you know, and that's what we were walking into. So I go on and the first thing I did was we saw them posting on Gas. They generally. They will go to apps that they believe are encrypted that can't be. Can't be subpoenaed by American law enforcement. Right. That's when you saw your vk, which was the Russian Facebook, Proton Mail. All these things that are like, you know, wire, telegram. I mean, there's tons. Three more. There was 4chan, 8chan, 12chan. There's all kinds of stuff. Stuff. Discord, all these things. And I'm not going to sit here and say what some of the articles that I've actually been a part of say, you know, there's a, you know, a million. White supremacy. I don't know about that, man. Is it. Are Nazis going to end up on your doorstep tomorrow? I don't know. But is it a very, very dangerous part of domestic terrorism in the United States? Yeah. Yeah. But I can also tell you transparently, I don't know how dangerous Antifa was. Was. I don't know how dangerous Black Lives Matters was because we weren't working a lot of those cases. I'll let you figure that one out. I'm not going to dive into it. It's just if the office says no and. Or. Boy, they really look at those cases. Well, they should look at every case, right? Yeah.
- [147:26]
A
Anyone calling for any type of ethno state, regardless of death and more violence, you know?
- [147:30]
B
Yeah. And I remember the thing about Antifa is they're like, well, it's not an organization. It's all. And I'm like, again, we mentioned conspiracy a while ago. All it takes is two people. As long as one of us isn't a source or an undercover. I don't care if it's only five of us, Mark. And I say, hey, it's me. I got the truckload of fresh pallets of frozen bottles of water and bricks and sticks, and I'm bringing them to you and two other people, and y'all go out and start beating people with them. Yeah. That's a conspiracy. Yeah. It's all we need.
- [148:01]
A
You know we've also heard that line before, right? It's not centralized like every organized group, whether it's the mob, cartel, all these GU jobs will say at the beginning, this is not centralized. Yeah, it's an idea.
- [148:12]
B
I know.
- [148:12]
A
So it's the second again.
- [148:14]
B
It goes back to that Fed talking. Glowing, right? You start talking openly in the. In the chat, you're like, hey, man, hey. Oh, easy, killer. We could be being monitored right now, right? Always Assume you're being monitored. Yeah, you know, so I'll speed it up a little bit. I start hitting stuff on Gab, start liking some of their stuff. They like some of my stuff back. And literally they were recruiting and on it. It's like, we're a survivalist network, blah, blah, blah, blah blah, if you're interested. And they had, back then it was the base. Underscore1protonmail.com so you respond. So I responded, hey, like what I'm seeing. Interested. They fire some stuff back. Hey, man. Yeah, you can't just think it's going to be there. You need to train whatever you're doing. Well, I started looking at when I was getting the responses and I started, I'm like, what time is it in Russia right now? Because I'm getting the responses at the same time every day. And I'm like, and I'm like, I bet you this is coming from Russia and I bet you it's Ronaldo. So I end up, I'm instructed to download the Wire app and let them know when I got it. Because Wire's kind of like a WhatsApp. You can do phone calls, video, stuff like that. So I do it and I. Sometime In July of 2019, I ended up doing about an hour and 15 minute panel interview you with, I think there was five on there. I remember thinking like I heard five different voices and some of them were very young, questioning me and telling me about the base and telling me about accelerationism and what their belief system was. And then at the end, Ronaldo says, hey, we'd like to give you a 24 hour grace period. In other words, you have now heard what we're about. It'll give you 24 hours to think about is this something you really want to be a part of? It'll give us 24 hours to figure out, talk about whether we want you in the group or not. True to his word, about 24 hours later, I got a thing saying, hey, we'd like to have you. And I said, I'd be honored. So then he says, and this goes to kind of circling back on what you said earlier. Then he says, hey, where are you at? And I said, I'm in Tennessee. He said, you're going to be contacted by the cell leader, C E L L. I always have to make sure I say it right. Cause I got a redneck accident and my lips get in the way. But sale leader closest to you and that happened to be tmb, the militant Buddhist out of Rome, Georgia. So when we get the contact. I'm like, holy shit. We're all like, man, we got tmb. So I go down to do the face to face vetting, and again, at this point, I'm learning I've got the whole siege thing going. I go down to meet the case team, who I'd never met before. I've talked on the phone on. But I get down to Georgia, meet them. They're like, hey, man, we need to put a tracking device on your vehicle. I'm like, go ahead. Because we didn't really know who we were going to meet. We didn't know where we're going. They don't want to lose me. I don't want them to lose me, you know? So I pull up and it was kind of funny because the case team had me meet him at a cemetery. And I was like, are you trying to tell me something? Why are we meeting? You know? But I was just joking with him and. And then some of them saw my, my stature and they were like, oh, these kids are going to piss themselves. I was like, ooh, I'm not that dude, man. I said, I tell him. And I do this when I'm talking, speaking or whatever. If I would have shown you a picture of the kids from Columbine before Columbine happened, what would you have said? If I'd show you a picture of that kid in Charleston, South Carolina, who shot up the black church before he did did it, what would you have said looking at that picture?
- [151:52]
A
Right.
- [151:52]
B
Dead is dead. You don't have to be huge, smart, sexy, whatever. You just need to be able to be lethal. Yeah, right. So they put advice on my truck and I go. And I had been instructed by tmb, Luke Lane is his real name. I'd been instructed by Luke where to go, where to park. Park to take a picture of the downtown Roman wolf statue, send it to him. And I remember somebody was like, you think they're going to be watching you? And I go, absolutely. They're freaking watching me. That's why they're telling me where to park and what to take a picture of.
- [152:28]
A
What is the Roman Wolf statue?
- [152:30]
B
It's Rome, Georgia. I. I don't know if there was a significance, but Roman Wolf was the moniker of Ronaldo Nazara. Odd, right? So I go, I'm driving around, I can't find a parking spot. I take a picture, I send it to him, him, and I end up parking. And then he's like. I say, hey, I couldn't find this parking spot. There it is. Right there, that's it.
- [152:48]
A
So it's based off Remus and Romulus, like the, the mythical, mythical story of creating.
- [152:52]
B
That one right there in the middle is Rome, Georgia.
- [152:54]
A
Oh, that's interesting. So this is just a landmark that they want you to go.
- [152:57]
B
Yep, yep.
- [153:00]
A
So you go down there and take the pick.
- [153:02]
B
Yeah, I take a pic while I'm driving around. I was kind of glad I couldn't find a spot because it. Let's let me kind of look around, kind of see if I see anybody following me kind of thing. I don't at this point, I don't know know how many are watching, but I'm preparing for the worst. Right. So I tell him where I'm at and he says, okay, I see you coming over. So as he's walking up, he's probably about 6, 2, maybe 220, frumpy, had a mop, haircut, needed, needed, needed a haircut. Kind of thicker glasses. And then the kid walking with him went by the moniker Pestilence. And Pestilence is your typical kind of looking goth dog. Dude had the black metal tank top of some black metal band, had black BDU's bloused into his 8 inch tactical boots. And then his head was shaved all the way around. It's at the top. But his hair was so long it went down like, I don't know, his lower back. Good, good goth look, you know? And so I meet him and I know I'm. I mean, I'm. I'm assuming, I'm preparing to be checked. This is the first time you've meet me face to face. I would check me. Yeah, you know, so he, he says, hey man, I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. I'm like, okay, I put an airplane mode. And he pulls out this thing. And I'm like, what the hell is that? In my head, I'm like, I mean, it looked like a Geiger counter. I'm like, what is that thing? It had like a triangle card in it. And I'm like, I've seen a lot of RF detectors and stuff like that, but I'm going, what is that? So he wants me. Nothing. I'm like, okay, cool. As he's walking to the back of my truck, which is where the tracker's at, that, that thing starts going nuts. It's going, I mean, it's making all kinds of racket. It's lightening up. And I'm going, lighting up. And I'm like, oh. I said, this thing is picking up the tracker. So I Literally ease my right leg back, because I'm like, I think we're getting ready to throw down, you know? But where I'd parked, we were on a hill, and the power lines were real close to the road, and. Right. I'm telling you, man, right when he was getting where it was at, that pestilence says, do you think it could be the power lines? And he walks over to the power lines, and it goes wacky. And he goes, you know, damn it. Yes. The power lines. Follow us. Divine intervention again, if you're me. I'm like, holy. You know? So I get in the truck, trying to calm down. I'm like, all right, cool. And now I'm following them, but I have no idea how many people are out there watching me. So I've got my coffee cup up, or whatever cup I have, and I look like I'm drinking, but I'm dialing the case team, the cover team, and I'm going, hey, you need to shut the tracker off. And they're like, we're not. We're not sure we can shut it off mobly. Remotely, I should say. And I'm like, you need to figure it out, you know? And. And they're like, well, you could tell they were having a conversation with probably, like, the tech person. And they were like, well, they're. They're not sure if they cut it off, they can get it back up on again. We're worried about where I'm going to be going.
- [155:54]
A
Of course.
- [155:55]
B
What if you lose me? And I said, well, you need to shut it off, because if you don't, it's probably going to be the quickest undercover I've ever done.
- [156:01]
A
Yeah.
- [156:02]
B
I mean, short of a by bust. I mean, those are quick, but I mean, I'm like, this is. This is going in quick.
- [156:07]
A
Are you worried at this point? Like, are you afraid of these guys? Like, do you think. No.
- [156:11]
B
But again, Dad's dead. I mean, I'm on my P's and Q's, you know, And. And I go. And again, I don't know how many. Many if it's just those two, or am I gonna pull up? There's gonna be 20 of them. I don't know, you know, Nazis dropping out of the sky, they're parachuting in on me.
- [156:29]
A
It's a bunch of goth kids. Save yourselves.
- [156:33]
B
It's too late for me, Mark. So they pull. They pull into a. I. I didn't see any cars. I'm gonna say it's abandoned, like, concrete plant. And to me, a Believer again. I kind of look up to the heavens and kind of giggle. I'm like, nice sense of humor. I'm like, who. Who has not died at a concrete plant.
- [156:50]
A
Yeah.
- [156:51]
B
An abandoned concrete plant. In a movie at some point or a TV show.
- [156:54]
A
Bad writing.
- [156:56]
B
Yeah. So. So I pull in there, and they had shut it off. I wasn't sure if they shut it off or not, but he wants everything and doesn't find anything. But it was a funny scene because here I am in this parking lot, arms wide open a la creed. Right. Arms wide open. And it starts. I mean, the bottom of the sky drops out. Man, it is coming down in buckets. And here I am like. Like. Like flash dance or something. If I had a chair, you know.
- [157:25]
A
You'Re in an Austrian music video like.
- [157:28]
B
This, and it's just. I'm soaked. And I passed the test. We hit a liquor store and then go to his. It's his dad's place, but it was a hundred acre, 100 acre farm. Farm in Rome, Georgia. Gorgeous. Freaking gorgeous, man. Just woods, creeks.
- [157:45]
A
A wealthy guy. Or they just had it from.
- [157:46]
B
I guess probably from family, I'm assuming.
- [157:48]
A
Sorry.
- [157:48]
B
Probably from family because they had taken the barn, the old horse barn, and converted the top into a living place. There was an older house that they rented, and other than that, I don't think there's anything much on that property. But we went there, and that's when I started befriending them a little bit more. I got my balaclava, which was the signature for the base, and Adam Waffen, some of the. Some of them have the. The skeleton face on them. And they gave me the. The base patch, which was three runes, the Iwas runes. And it signifies. Yeah, it signifies life, death, rebirth. So. So picture, you know, picture your. As a KK guy. KKK person told me one time when I was undercover with him, he goes, before you're naturalized in the kkk. So it's like wizard of Oz. Like, the whole movie's in black and white, but when you're naturalized, everything comes out in color, you know? And I'm like, all right, cool, man.
- [158:50]
A
It's a lot of theatrics. Like, be honest. Like, going from, like, these cartel guys and these biker guys to then the neo Nazi guys. They're a little party that's like. This is just. It's. It's a little. It's a little sillier. You know, Obviously, dead is dead. I don't want to. I don't want to downplay some.
- [159:04]
B
Is there Were times where akk case I like when I was getting naturalized, I did have to bite my lip because it was very. I was blindfolded. They were reading from probably the Ku Klux Klan Bible or something, the Cloran, but it's some biblical. And then it's just. But it was really like a scene from Django or oh Brother, Where Art Thou or Bad Boys 2 or Harold and Kumar escape Guantanamo. That's what I. And I'm glad to bite my lip because I'm like, wow. And I'm not making fun of them, but I did find it comical.
- [159:41]
A
Yeah.
- [159:41]
B
You know, and I do have a pretty wicked sense of humor and I've used that through all of my cases. Yeah. To help me get by. So at this point, I go back to the hotel room and I've got. I've got the mask, the runes, and I'm going to come back me the next morning when I go back the next day. Day two other members of the base had driven through the night from the Baltimore area. And then we did training all day. Firearms, Firearms and tactics training.
- [160:12]
A
Oh, really?
- [160:13]
B
Led by a 19 year old kid, Pestilence. And it was good.
- [160:17]
A
Really?
- [160:17]
B
It was good. It was not. I mean, I've definitely seen some better. There were some things that could be corrected. I'm not going to correct them because me being that lead tactical instructor and active shooter instructor and all this stuff, I didn't play that role, nor would I because I don't want to help them get better.
- [160:34]
A
Is it difficult for you to pretend and not know how to use a firearm?
- [160:38]
B
Yeah, that was pretty tough. I mean, I act like I'd shot before, right. But like they were actually using the terminology we use. It's like, hey man, this is a threshold evaluation. You know, slicing the pie. Okay, cool. I go, hey, what'd you call that again? Oh, it's slicing the pie. Oh. So, okay, when I'm slicing the pie, I'd let them say it and then I kind of say it, you know, if, if I'm in a. If I'm playing the role of you're teaching me kind of thing. But yeah, the kid could shoot. I mean, Adderall had something to do with the fast shooting, I'm sure. But you know, they were like, you want some Adderall? Because I was. When I got in the group, I was White Warrior 88. But I quickly changed it to Pale Horse actually, because Pestilence is making fun of me. He's like, that's such a boomer name. Okay, first of all, I'm not a boomer. I Googled the years, and I don't fit, all right?
- [161:24]
A
I'm a white supremacist. I'm not a boomer.
- [161:26]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [161:26]
A
All right.
- [161:27]
B
And then. And I go. I said. I remember asking, I guess.
- [161:30]
A
Well, what is.
- [161:30]
B
Where's. How'd you come up with Pestilence? He gets Plague of Death, man. It's just four horsemen. I went, damn, that is way better than. I'm sitting over there having to drink. And I go, would you be offended if I use Pale Horse? I said, because I've always been fascinated with, you know, death was on the pale horses. The Grim Reaper, he said, hell, no, man. That'd be cool, right? So that's when I became Pale Horse. But that's when I go back the next day, and I'm listening to Pestilence and this other member, Eisenhower. Eisen. Young guys Eisen, reddish moppy hair, stocky build, and they're talking about all these beliefs that are just like, what the. I mean, wt. I mean, it's like, what. It's like Hitler's still alive, okay? He's in Hollow Earth. Hollow Earth is a real thing. There's a Garthens, and there's something else. There's a name for, like, giant men, the Nephilim. No, I know that from the Viking stuff. I know that from the Viking stuff. These were not Nephilim. It was something else, but it was like, they're Caucasian with red hair. They're like 15 foot tall, and they're all waiting to come back, okay. For us to take over as a white race. And I go, really? Now, I'm gonna be careful because I'm not trying to belittle them, but I'm like, huh? And they're like, yeah. And I go, and where are these 15 plus foot tall men? Because I've never seen one. I mean, I've seen some tall dudes. I ain't seen no 15 foot tall dude. And he's like, well, they're. They're there, but they'll let I go. So what are they waiting on? Why don't they just come up here and. Let's just kick ass. Then I'm hearing these theories of Hollow Earth, concave Earth. And they are going back like brainiacs to each other. Oh, concave. Oh, yes. I go, you're saying that the Earth is concave? How well is very known that Hitler did test and he shot a rocket. Rocket. And eventually it hit the ground. And I go, that's how you saying this? I said, what if. What if it was a mountain? What if it was a hill? I go, what if was ever fueling the missile or rocket ran out of gas?
- [163:35]
A
Yeah.
- [163:35]
B
I go, what do you. Oh, we don't know the nuances of the study. We just know that, you know. And I'm like, okay, man.
- [163:40]
A
I mean, gravity works on it the.
- [163:41]
B
Same way some of it. I go, earth. Flat Earth. And I go, what about the pictures of Earth? And look, this is a belief system is out there. That's strong.
- [163:49]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [163:50]
B
Oh, that's just one picture that was doctored. And everybody keeps redoctoring the picture of like, okay, all right, you may get me on the. We really didn't land on the moon back then.
- [163:59]
A
Yeah, I'm listening.
- [164:00]
B
Because who had the camera crew set up on the moon to get them coming out? I get it.
- [164:04]
A
I get it.
- [164:05]
B
You know, but flat Earth, I mean, it's tough. I've flown halfway around. I didn't fly the other way.
- [164:15]
A
Also, flat Earth is fun to. To. To kind of go on. You know what I mean? It's a fun little theory. We can have. We can have some fun with it. But then as you start putting Hitlers in on the flat earth somewhere, it's like, whoa.
- [164:25]
B
Yeah.
- [164:25]
A
Why did you have to bring that up?
- [164:26]
B
What happened?
- [164:27]
A
Yeah, we're having fun. Talk about flat Earth.
- [164:28]
B
I think a flat Earth. I think of like, Pirates of the Caribbean when the ship flips.
- [164:32]
A
Yeah.
- [164:33]
B
When Johnny Depp's like, oh, there's something over here. And then they flip, and that's how they end up in Davy Jones locker. I got that on my body.
- [164:38]
A
Yeah, right. That makes sense. I get this Hitler thing. As we were losing. Look, I like conspiracies, but he's in Davy Jones locker.
- [164:45]
B
Yeah. What the hell? Hitler. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. So it's all kinds of stuff like that. But during the case, you know, again, I'm just trying to befriend, Just trying to get to know. And they want you to bring something to the table to train, to get other people trained up. Preparing for that bugaloo. Preparing for the D day. Everybody's stocking their kit. Everybody is all about, build your kid up. Build your kid up. There's all this. I mean, the amount of literature that they had just for this one group, the base was insane as a folder. It was a folder. You opened it up, it was called Rahoa 14, which is short for racial Holy war. And then, I mean, it was how to make plastic Guns and how to make grenades. And then it might be like eight years outdated. Army field manual, Marine field manual and just all this stuff how to detect surveillance, how did it. And it was just crazy. And then they would write like, like it's almost like their bylaws. But it would be instructions on how to go out to do stickering or postering. They're huge on that. Run outside. Like right now on the street would go down and spray glue, smack it on there. It'll be a picture for the base that says save your race, join the base. And there'll be a QR code. You scan that QR code, it cuts you straight to a video on bit shoot on Bitchute. And it'll be one of our propaganda video videos. And every recruitment video had to be better than the last one because we wanted to recruit. I'll go back to them being infiltrated and doxed early on back then we had stuff where Nazara had just been spewing crazy stuff. Once they start getting infiltrated, a bunch of the California area crew were identified, they bail out. Then I kind of come in after that. And then it's. Then we got infiltrated by a journalist in Canada, Ryan Thorpe. Kudos to him. Very freaking dangerous. I'm not sure as a journalist you need to be out there by yourself with these crazy people with guns.
- [166:56]
A
Yeah, he's doing what you're doing, but without any of the.
- [166:58]
B
No cover, no nothing, no law enforcement and honestly no training to do that. So he goes in the. We had a member in Canada, Pat Matthews. He had all kinds of moniker names, but he ended up becoming Punished Snake. So Pat goes and meets him and this journalist meets because he called on one of the flyers because Pat's been putting up flyers in Canada. He does the face to face meet. He tells Nazaro he did good, he passed. Next thing you know, we got this guy Ryan. I can't remember his name, his moniker, but hey, it might be like Roman Wolf is, is bringing in so and so, you know, hey everybody, say hello to the newest base member. Bam, bam, bam. So now they're in the main chat. So we start talking to him about a week to two weeks after he'd been in there. He pulls chalks. I think his management said this is getting too serious kind of thing. And he does the article and the Toronto Press somewhere up there in Canada and it blasts Pat. And then it starts coming out that who Pat is. So he was actually it's kind of like their version, I think of National Guard but he was like the army up there being trained. So he gets booted from that rcmp. Royal Canadian Mounted Police show up at his house, take his guns. His parents are pissed he lost his job, and he absconds. Only thing they know is they found his truck near the border. Border. So we're automatically thinking he's probably with the base in the States. And. And that's when. That's when things really start kind of this. This case agent out of Baltimore, Rasheed Harrison, unbelievable guy, Former DEA agent, became FBI. Dude's an unbelievable investigator. He started really spearheading a lot because he had the crew in Baltimore. But he starts doing all kinds of. Of great phone analysis and tracking. And he's able. He's able to figure out that a new phone was activated on the trip from the border down to, like, Virginia area. And we're still trying to find Pat. And then lo and behold, I go to a training in Rome, Georgia. I pull up, it's kind of rainy. I'm counting the heads that are under the army morning. And there's a one, there's an extra person. Because I'm looking at the car and I'm going, okay, that's Helter Skelter's car. That's Pestilence car. That's so and so. That's so and so. That's. That's Luke's dad's trucks. And I go, there's not a car. Who's this extra person? So as I walk up, I see this bushy redheaded, and I'm going, I'm looking. And because the pictures I'd seen a Pat, he's clean shaven, nice, nice action figure jawline, you know, and pretty sure he had blue eyes. Blue or green. And as I walk up, they go, hey, pale horse. Whatever. Hey, this isn't. He turns to me and he starts talking, complete Canadian accent. Punished Snake. And as soon as he said together, you may or may not have heard about me. I was. And I. All I did was just go right into the roll. I mean, I'm just like. I'm like, are you me? I said, man, welcome to the United States, brother. Boom. So we had him. He was staying in one of the horse stalls while he thought heat died down. Here's where things start getting crazy. They start looking at like, like we've having. We would have talks. We would go do like, you know, five hour plus rucks or whatever, and we would have talks. And I mean, this dude is talking about when. When the boogaloo happens, when d Day happens, fascism will rule. And if you are not fascist, just by default, you were anti fascist. And if you were anti fascist, it's a penalty of death. So he's sitting there, and sometimes he'd cry. When he's saying it, he's like, I may very well have to put a bullet in the back of my father's head, but I can do it. I'll do it. Now Luke says, well, I could do it, but I wouldn't want to, because if I had to kill my dad, he goes, I'd cry myself to sleep every day. He said, so maybe I'd get somebody else to do it.
- [171:11]
A
What the hell?
- [171:11]
B
Pestilence, who was by far, I thought, the more satanic. Definitely. And I'll get back to your satanic and acceleration. This tie. He. He actually said, you guys are farther away, farther along than me. Then he goes, because I couldn't kill my parents. I thought that was after some of the prayers I'd heard him say at blots, which is a pagan ritual. And again, nothing, Nothing. No offense to any pagans out there that are listening. I've got great friends who are pagans. Pagans. My whole right arm is tattooed with Viking, and. And I'm. But they like. Like the Christian identity. White supremacists took the Bible and twisted it. They're taking paganism and twisting it, right? So they're doing that. You can have different pantheons. Like, of course, I went with Norse mythology because I'm very familiar with it, you know, Odin, Thor, Nephilim, all that stuff you're talking about. All you gotta do is go get Assassin Creeds, Valhalla, play that thing all the way through, and you should be pretty squiggly that. And watch Vikings, and you should be all right. It's not going to make you a great pagan, but it'll get you somewhere in the ballpark. But, you know, when we would do blots, Pestilence, man, he would be like, first of all, we would cut ourselves. They would take wood, carve runes into it, and some, you know, white supremacy symbols like swastikas and stuff. So you're mixing already the myth, the Norse or pagan mythology, paganism with white supremacy. And then we would cut ourselves and bleed on the wood and then set it on fire as we prayed over it to the gods, right? Well, you know, I might pray to Odin or I might pray to, you know, Rolo or whatever, and. And somebody else. And pretty much it was peace, peaceful, at least for the first block. But, man, when Pestilence started praying. He prayed to an Egyptian pantheon. And it was straight satanic gore, blood, peeling skin. And I'm like, well, he's really angry. You know, that's what I'm thinking while I'm standing there sweating and we're all worshiping at the holy spot. I'm like, this dude is. He is not a happy man. Is this middle of the night, nighttime on that block? Yeah.
- [173:22]
A
And it was just in on the property.
- [173:24]
B
Yeah. I mean, you gotta walk. So I remember when we walked down there for the first blot, it was like August. It was hot. I know it was hot. It was sweating like crazy. But you start walking and, man, we're walking and walking into these deep, thick woods. And I remember, here I am, I was probably like, I was in my late 40s. I was lying and saying I was four years younger, longer just for this group. But, you know, all the stuff you've done, you're desensitized. Not that you should get lax, as I said earlier. But I remember walking, you know, you can't see anything around you because it's like a candle. So anything anywhere can see us from 100 yards away, but we can't see five feet past us, you know? And I remember walking in there and we're going down there to do a blot. And, man, I started getting scared. I was like, am I. I remember asking myself, I'm like, am I getting butterflies right now? Am I freaking scared right now? Now? And I'm like, you know, I said a little prayer, you know, and going down there, and I'm like, well, flames start flying and demons go everywhere. I said, I do. I did see that movie Devil. I guess we could shoot everybody and whichever one stands up with the devil, I knew it was you.
- [174:33]
A
Do they have weapons while they're doing these things? Are they strapped the whole time?
- [174:36]
B
No, we usually didn't bring weapons down there because it was more of a holy experience other than the knife to cut ourselves.
- [174:43]
A
Right, right. And you're Christian.
- [174:45]
B
Yeah.
- [174:45]
A
So was there ever a part of you that felt conflicted? Like on praying, you know, obviously sort.
- [174:51]
B
Of under rational, I rationalized it a little better. And I mean, again, my tattoo is on my arm. I was doing all these pagan type undercovers with these white supremacists. I'm like, man, I knew I wanted to sleeve my arm and I knew I wanted to be the theme of the armor of God. But the armor of God is usually it's the Knights of the Templar or it's like Gladiator stuff. And I'm like, I was watching Vikings because there was actually another group we were going to try to do a case on. I ended up not being the undercover, but they were watching Vikings and that's why they were getting all their paganism stuff. They didn't know what the hell they were doing. But I started watching Vikings and I loved it. I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm a Viking. I go, I'm pretty sure they look exactly like the bikers, except instead of riding the horse horses, we ride motorcycles. I go, it's pretty much the same thing.
- [175:39]
A
Yeah. Long boats for.
- [175:40]
B
Traded out the mead for Jack Daniels, but other than that, yeah.
- [175:43]
A
Wow.
- [175:45]
B
But, yeah, you know, so I did. This whole thing is. It's the armor of God. And now that I'm retired, I mean, I went ahead and put Ephesians on there and you know, I've got. But even in the lightning, you know, I've got Psalm 23. They didn't know that.
- [175:58]
A
Right.
- [175:58]
B
Just stuff for me. So I felt covered and protected, affected. But yeah, Pestilence had some. He had some hate in his heart. So we're identifying more and more people all over the world and. But definitely within the United States. So more and more cases are being open and it's like, what are we planning to do? Well, here's what I'll tell you. You talked about like, do they really go out and do anything? Well, the answer for the base is yes, they train and. And that's what they were preparing for. You got a kid who's 21 years old, he doesn't have a car, he don't have a job, but he's got a freaking arsenal in his closet because he does odd job here and there, builds up. He's got ARs, he's got pistols, he's got shit, tons of ammo. They're building up what they call the battle rattle. Right. They've got their duty belt with their guns and everything. They've got. They were wearing cry Precision plate carriers. That's the same thing the FBI wears. That's expensive.
- [176:57]
A
And how are they get. Like, where's the money coming from?
- [176:59]
B
Either parents or, you know, like I said, odd jobs. And you, you work until you get it, but you didn't even have a color. So, you know, I mean, at some point you got to have the red flags coming up. So that's. Sometimes I have an issue when I hear a parent go. And I get it because all parents, not my little Johnny, I've shown them on video. This is your kid did. This is what he did. That's him. Not my little job. I get it, I get it. Because as a parent you don't want to, right? You don't want to see it. But man, to say that you didn't. To say that you thought that whole arsenal, not really having a whole lot of friends except a bunch of grown dudes that come over and train with machine guns. Talk about the hate. You heard the hate. You sat down there and drank with us. And then to say that when you go in his room and you see a skull of a ram that we sacrificed, maybe he didn't know we sacrificed it and drank his blood, but it's there on the ram skull is swastikas and things like that. To the right of it is Mein Kampf, Hitler's book. To the left of it is Siege or vice versa. James Mason. You think that's a phase?
- [178:05]
A
Yeah, the parents gotta know.
- [178:06]
B
Come on.
- [178:07]
A
Or maybe they're complicit. Maybe I thought it was a phase.
- [178:09]
B
Really?
- [178:10]
A
That's what the parents said.
- [178:11]
B
That'd be a phase I'd be in. Yeah, I'll be interjecting, right.
- [178:14]
A
Like as a 19, 20 year old kid, like you're obviously an adult but like you're still under the tutelage of your parents to some capacity.
- [178:19]
B
Right.
- [178:20]
A
Like you would hope that the parents would step in.
- [178:22]
B
So these guys trained and, and they were looking to do stuff. So some interesting things they based. I mean the base, right. Pardon the pun. The base in Islam translates to Al Qaeda. And if you looked at Al Qaeda and the way they did things, they wanted three to five man sales all over the world. Waiting for that D day call. The base was the same thing. They wanted three to five man sales all over the world. Ready for that data call.
- [178:55]
A
Different mission. Yeah, Same ops though.
- [178:57]
B
Yep, same. And then of course end with an ethno state. And so I befriended and then we get down to the ram sacrifice. We get to Halloween, Halloween night 2019. And I just remember I got to Georgia, it was not cold, it had not been cold. And a cold front came in and it dropped like an easy 40 plus degrees. So I even went to Walmart and bought a base layer. I'm like, dude, I've freeze my ass off. I did not prepare for this. And they had talked about we were doing a hate camp. People from all over the country were there there I think about 13 of us. And we were all going to stay there for four days on the 100 acre farm and do trainings and whatnot. But they had talked about a possible sacrifice. So the kid Eisen I told you about was. He was supposedly studying to be a. I don't know what you'd call it, a Norse priest or whatever, to run blots. And. And he. He had mentioned some things. It just in. Just in chatter on the main. Main channel. So it gets cold. We've done some training. I. I led some hand to hand combat training. I had to find something that I could do that wouldn't teach them how to go kill somebody, you know, and it had to be something that all the legal attorneys back at headquarters weren't going nuts over. You know, know. I said I was going to do tourniquet training. They were like, well, what if. What if what you teach them, they actually have to go out and do to somebody in real life, and if they apply it wrong and that person dies, it's liability. I'm like, good gravy, man. It's a tourniquet. I'm like, you run it high, as high as you can on extremities. Don't put a tourniquet around your neck.
- [180:47]
A
Yeah.
- [180:47]
B
You know, some simple things. Yeah. So anyway, I did that. Now it gets cold. I remember going back to my truck to charge the phone. I kind of fell asleep because I've gotten cold and usually sit in the heater and you're like, because it was wet, too. I, like, I'll pass out. I wake up to the sound pounding pale horse, Pale horse. Man, get up, beat up. You ain't gonna believe this. I get up, I'm like, what the hell's going on? They're like, man, we got it. We got the ram. We got the ram. They had gone not that far down the damn road and stole one of, I think, three rams out of this dude's backyard. They almost got caught doing it. I come walking out and I look and I go, oh, shit. They're in the back of can't go back straight truck. And one of the members, Dima, he says, man, this. This. This ram is everywhere. And I kind of cracked the jug. I'm like, well, I'd be everywhere too if a bunch of grown men with mask and fleck tarn camo outfits came and jerked me out of my backyard and carried me over here. And then. And I saw Eisen talking to it and talking to the goat or ram, whatever. And I asked him, I'm like, I said, is it. Is it bad that I feel sorry for the. For the goat? He Says, don't let anybody hear you say that. He don't even let the goat hear you say that. This goat is going to. Oh, this is going to be a sacrifice. This. This animal needs to be loved. And I'm like, oh, hell, okay. All right. And I remember going over. I'm like, we're going to kill this thing. I know it. And I went to one of my recording transmitter devices, and I leaned in because I knew the CASE team was listening because they were running. If I was out 24 7, they were out 247 until I put my head down at a hotel, then they could go back, but they were out. And this was a big weekend. And I went over and I said, hey. Something to the effect. I'm like, hey, I don't. I said, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go sacrifice this ram. I said, I can't think of anything on the top of my head that would make us stop other than they stole an animal, you know? And I'm like, but if anybody doesn't want me to do this, give me some kind of signal. And I sat there, and I was, like, twiddling my thumb. I got nothing. And then I went, okay, I guess we're going down here. And we went down to the same holy spot, and Eisen was leading the block, and he had twisted the Wild Hunt. The Wild Hunt was in Norse mythology, Basically, Odin and a bunch of other gods go out and just kick ass. They're riding through the night, just killing all the. Whatever.
- [183:19]
A
It's D day, basically, it's north D day.
- [183:21]
B
So, yeah, so this was going to be the Wild Hunt. However it the Wild Hunt translated to, we're going to sacrifice this ram and start the Wild Hunt, which means cleansing probably the world of non whites. So we get down there, Eisen is leading the block, and then he has basically a machete. And I don't know how I ended up. We're all in a circle. I don't know. Poor, poor decision on my part. But I'm at the back of a goat, holding the goat by his legs, and he's like, all right. He's like. He's all practicing. He's like, oh, I'm gonna do it. You know, everybody finally somebody says, just do it.
- [183:59]
A
And what kind of weapon? He's.
- [184:01]
B
It's like a machete.
- [184:02]
A
Just. Okay.
- [184:03]
B
It's not a sword. No, but it's like a bigger than machete, you know, it's not a sword, though. A sharp knife object, but bigger than a Knife about machete size. He rares back and comes down as hard as he can, and all you hear is thunk. And the damn thing went bad. And I went, oh. Because it didn't. It didn't. I don't even think it broke a hair, because I don't know if the blade's dull, but the back strap on the ram is very thick.
- [184:27]
A
Yeah.
- [184:28]
B
And for a split second, in my mind, I'm holding the back of the gun. I'm going, oh, man. I'm just foreseeing all this back. Bad, bloody. Just like, what's gonna happen. And then somebody else do it again. I don't think Pestilence says, does anybody have a gun? Well, Luke's instruction. Which, by the way, Luke and Pestilence were pretty tight on the range for safety. Luke's instruction was no weapons down there. Well, one guy says, yeah, I got one out of all of us there. This was the most unqualified person to be holding a weapon. Terrible tactical, not strong. And he had been up for over 24 or 48 hours. He worked third shift in Austin, Texas, and drove straight to Georgia on Adderall and energy drinks, except for the one part. He fell asleep somewhere in Alabama and rear ended somebody. This dude had a gun. Great. And we were all like, what? And then Luke grabs the gun and he hands it. Or maybe Pestilence grabs it, but either way, they hand it to Eisen. Well, here we are in a circle still. Eisen's gonna shoot the ram. Now he points kind of towards the goat ram. I know. I keep going back and forth. And he turns his head away. Well, now the instructor Emmy's coming out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he's like, what? I go, look at what the hell you're shooting. I go, man, we're all in a circle. I mean, you know, watch what you're doing. Doing. So he chambers around, goes right up to it. Boom. Drops it. It kicks for, like, two minutes. And I'm like, man, I think it might still be alive. I'm pretty sure it's dead. I go, yeah, but for Valhalla and, you know, Odin, we love the goat, right? I mean, he named it Gar. His middle name's Garfield. His grandfather's name was Garfield. He named the ram Gar, like, out.
- [186:17]
A
Of love, out of respect.
- [186:18]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [186:19]
A
I mean, what the hell?
- [186:20]
B
Hell. So he shoots it again, and then it stopped moving. Okay, okay, now. Now it's definitely dead. Well, now they. They commenced to taking the animal apart. They didn't know what the hell they were doing. The first thing, somebody other than cutting the throat. They cut the throat, filled up a glass with, like, blood, and they're passing it around, and we're all drinking it. Well, by the time it gets to me, it's already clotting. It's all chunky. And I'm looking at that glass and I'm thinking, man, I am not going to drink that. But I put my finger in it. I stuck my finger in the blood, finger in my mouth, sucked the blood off. Luckily, I had a beer. I chased it with that. And then while. While everybody was in a circle on their knees, I held the flashlight. Verizon, who was passing out hits of acid. And then they would drink the blood. Not everybody did the acid. And I'm like. Because it's supposed to help with the shaman, like, really help you go to the spirit world kind of thing. And basically it just screwed everything up. And, I mean, they went to trust to skin the guy. I don't know what the hell they were doing. They. They chopped the head off. Their knife was terrible. I gave them my. My Harley Davidson knife. And then, man, it took a long time to get the intestines and stuff off of that. I ain't gonna lie. Yeah, and then through the. Through the stomach and everything into the creek. But they're talking about, like, cooking it or skinning it. The first thing, I can't remember who did it. I think it was Pat and somebody else. They cut the back legs off. If you know anything about hunting, the skin you got, you hang it by. You hang the deer by his back legs. They had nothing to hang from. So that shot that screwed the entire next day because everybody was high all night long.
- [187:59]
A
I mean, are there incantations or there other ritual elements while they're doing this? Or is it just like quietly, awkwardly chopping a head off for 30 minutes?
- [188:06]
B
So Eisen was kind of leading and speaking. He wasn't near as good as some other people we had leading the blots, but there was kind of that going on. We didn't really do the whole praying in a circle thing. It was more of the sacrifice, drinking the blood. And then. Yeah, then they just. Then we carried the head of the goat around for four days.
- [188:25]
A
But there are other sacrificial, like, spiritual elements. Like before the sacrifice, were they reading out of any books?
- [188:31]
B
No, he was. He was winging it, but he was talking about the wild hunt and sacrificing Gar to Odin to start the wild hunt. And you know, to pay our respects to Valhalla and all this stuff. So we did end up doing training through that Saturday, that Blue Friday. That was a Thursday night Blue Friday because everybody was still up and high.
- [188:55]
A
And so that. That day off, when you're with all these neo Nazis, are you, like, chatting with them? Just like, getting to know.
- [189:00]
B
There's not a whole lot to chat about, man. I was bored off my ass, really.
- [189:03]
A
Just sitting around.
- [189:04]
B
Yeah. I'm like. And I told him, I said, this is ridiculous. Really. And I told Luke, I go, next time, no dope, man. I said, if you guys come. I said, hell, we've wasted an entire damn day. Day. You guys ain't even slept all night. You don't even know what the hell you all staring at the fire because you're freaking on acid.
- [189:19]
A
Cooked.
- [189:19]
B
Yeah. So Saturday comes around, we do more training, and then we have the burning ceremony where, you know, we. We burn Amer. We burn Bibles in the fire. We burn American flags. And I'll tell you that the Bibles didn't burn. People say they're scientific, you know, well, the pages are made out of clay. They don't burn. Look, man, it was a fire. I saw them put Bibles in that thing. Open face down. It's even in the video, probably. You see them opening it up, putting in the fire. Fire goes up, comes back down. Pat's messing with the fire, stoking the coals, and he's flipping and flipping. Bible flips over. Completely unburned. Maybe the edges are singed. Completely unburned, burned. So he has to start tearing it page by page. He gets that, the fire goes back up, it goes back down, and he's poking the coals again. And I'll be damned if he doesn't hit a second Bible and it opens up, not a page burnt. I wish I could have seen what. What page it opened to. Yeah, I wish I could see what book, what scripture. But when he flipped the second one, one of the. One of the members, big siege, he said. He said, man, these Bibles just won't burn, you know? And I did a little silently to myself, up to heaven. I gave him myself a little Sammy.
- [190:39]
A
Sosa, you know, I'm like a little fist bump.
- [190:44]
B
I got you, Jesus. I got you. But, yeah, I mean, you're doing that. You talk about being a Christ follower. Are you doing that? And they're yelling, you know, your Jewish God, you know, all this stuff, and you're doing all that. So when I got back from that weekend I mean, I don't know if it's just because of was weird or if it was the satanic element tied to it or if it was just me being tired or what, but I was a little rock man. I text my pastor and I'm like, hey, I know it's. It's kind of hard for people to reach out. I go, but I'd appreciate some prayers. I just went through some weird stuff, you know, so.
- [191:17]
A
And so the. The anti Christian thing is because Jesus was a Jew, obviously, the Torah is in the Old Testament. It's like that. That is the anti Christian element, the anti American element. Is this a part of, like, almost this accelerationist idea that America's protecting diversity, that America is, you know, trying to, you know, elevate people of color?
- [191:35]
B
Zionist government. Jews control everything. A lot of them hated porn. I'm like, really? And they're like, yeah, the Jews run the porn industry. And I went, oh. I mean, I could see an argument, you know, I'm like, okay, Hollywood, you know, whatever. I'm like, but yeah, they were. They. They were just hateful, you know. But off of that weekend, I gained more trust with Luke and Pestilence, and they started bringing me in on some murder plots they had. So we uncovered. They were already formed. Like, you know, Pat would talk crazy stuff. Like, I told you, he's already said he would kill his dad more than once, but in his mind, he was a gut ghost. He didn't exist anymore because he had absconded illegally in the United States, and he wanted to form like a ghost squad, Almost like a safe haven for people like him who had been doxxed. And. And then they could just go kill people. I mean, he would talk about, hey, get a revolver, because it doesn't leave brass. He could be dressed like a homeless person, case somebody for several days, learn their pattern. Pattern. A lefty, of course, and then put a bullet right in the back of the head and walk off. He said, nobody's gonna know. Luke had started. By the time we found out it was actually a murder plot, I thought we were gonna. We kind of thought we were going to be doing postering because he had called for a camping trip for the Appalachian crew. And I went down there. I tried to get him to tell me on the phone. He wouldn't do it, even on wire. But he said, man, I'm not gonna tell you on the phone, but I'll tell you your face. I go, oh, all right. You know, I'm like, I'm coming through there. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. I wasn't, but I am now. Called the case team. Went over there, he comes outside and he goes. I told him, I said, look, you know, I like the joke. You know, I like to have fun. I said, but I'm not where I met in life by being a dumbass. What are we getting ready to do? Because I got a lot to lose. And he said, essentially, we're going to whack somebody. And I went, oh. And in my mind, I'm like, well, that's way different than putting up stickers. And then I was able to slow it down, Per. I mean, it's what the case team wanted anyway. But I pointed out to him what little preparation he had done to prepare for murdering what was believed to be an antifa couple and a couple of counties away in Georgia, when if you looked at the rules and regulations he had written just to go flowering. I mean, like, the OPSEC was insane, down to the details, and it was on a sheet. I'm like, why this for. For putting up a damn sticker and nothing. And he goes, well, I'm just tired of waiting. But I. Then it hit me that I was also a site survey, special site survey specialist for that. And I said, you know, we were talking about what kind of information he had on the family, the home. Do they have kids? Do they not this, that and the other. And I said, bro, I can do this for my job. This is what I do. I go, I can. We can say I'm building here, but I'm pulling all the demographics, ethics. I'm pulling schools, crime, ethnicity. I said, I can do all that, get the information we need on this house, and it'll be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. So we bought some time. Plus Helter Skelter had to get a minor back surgery where they shaved the excess of the disc off. And he wanted to participate in the murders. And so, yeah, was there a ritualistic.
- [194:55]
A
Element to the murders or was it just, hey, let's get rid of these antifa guys.
- [194:58]
B
I was gonna go in there, kill them. It started a couple of different ways, but it ended with. With Luke. Wanted me in the house with it wanted all of us in the house. And we cased the house probably two or three different times, daytime and nighttime. And he wanted me in the house with him to murder their family. And at one point, somebody asked, hey, man, are there any kids? And Helter Skelter said, I don't have a problem killing the commie kid.
- [195:21]
A
What the fuck?
- [195:22]
B
So okay, all right, cool. Helter's like, I've been waiting for this for two years, man. By the way, Helter also voted for. This is an acceleration as I idea. He voted for Hillary Clinton. And I said, what? And he's like, yeah. And I go, why would you vote for Hillary Clinton? He said, think about it, dude. If she gets in, you're going to see defund the police. You're going to see open borders, you're going to see towns getting burnt down. It'll accelerate the collapse of society.
- [195:47]
A
Wow.
- [195:48]
B
And I was like, well, that's a sick way of thinking, but damn, wow. You're. You're in it to win it. You know what I mean? So now we fast forward. I've got those murder plots that we've uncovered. We're putting together like catch bags for the. I'm sorry, this. So it was going to be all of us going in. Helter Skelter was going to run cover. There was a bay window run cover for surveillance there while me and Luke were most likely killing the couple. But Helter Skelter said he did want to pop his cherry. His words. And I'm like, what do you mean pop your cherry? Because that means something different to me.
- [196:23]
A
What the fuck?
- [196:24]
B
And he said, I'm like, what do you mean, Poppy Jerry. And he. He's like. And then Luke said, I think he wants to actually put a bullet in one of them's head. And I said, well, we got a silencer on a what? A.22? I said that it'll probably take more than one shot. We should all be able to get one. Luke had gone to the planning stages of if we had to use our ars, it was going to be loud. That would suck. But at least have catch bags. You buy them. It attaches to the gun so when the brass expels it catches it in the back. So you don't leave anything for evidence. He had done research. Like, we were going to go to a camping spot at the campsite. We were going to leave everything electrical, everything. We were going to go to a pay by the hour motel, pay cash. All of us get in there, shower, scrub the shit out of ourselves so no dead skin falls off. Put on whatever outfits we're going to do just like weapons of mass destruction. We're going to. We're going to tape our pant legs to our socks and no skin can coming out. Gloves to hats, helmets, all that stuff. Vaseline on eyebrows and facial hair so it doesn't fall. He even went so far to Say that he has read in some studies that the first time, A lot of times for people when they murder somebody for the first time, they lose control of their bowels. So he was talking about getting depends for everybody.
- [197:40]
A
What the fuck?
- [197:41]
B
But I looked at him and said, I think I'll be all right. I didn't tell him I killed anybody, but I might insinuate it by saying, I don't need a diaper.
- [197:50]
A
Yeah, I've already got my Depends.
- [197:52]
B
I'm good. Yeah, I crap my pants just now hearing you say that. I just pissed myself.
- [197:58]
A
I mean, what the.
- [197:59]
B
Yeah, so we get that. Now on the other end of the spectrum, we've got the crew up in Baltimore and Virginia. Delaware, actually. Delaware. Because by the time at the end, they were living in Newark, Delaware. They were looking at the. The Virginia gun rights rally under the former governor, who was very anti gun, wanted to crack down on guns big time. So there was already going to be this huge gun rights rally, Second Amendment rally in Virginia at the Capitol. And they believed that was going to be the kickstart of the boogaloo. And they had gone to the point of saying, hey, let's go, let's go. And we can fire shots from outside. Then the cops will think it's the 3 percenters and vice versa. And if Antifa's here, everybody starts shooting everybody we come in and claim up. But these guys. Of course, Pat was here. Illegal, but he was working with a Mexican crew. Funny, right? White supremacist, accelerationist. But he has no Social Security number. And he's working a pay. Pay cash under the table with a bunch of illegals. Other illegals from different ethnicity. Yeah. So he was building up his kit. He had made a ghost gun. No, no serial numbers, nothing like that on it, and can't go back. Actually had a job as a truck driver, and he had a decent car. He was like an anomaly in the. In the base. He had bought a 6.5 Creedmore and a $6,000 thermal scope, Bluetooth, back to your phone, everything. And in his mind, which was not a bad plan, he said, there are snipers out there that are way better than me, but if I get this thermal scope and we're at night, I'm leveling the playing field. And the Baltimore crew had done a Title 3 wiretap. They had wired and videoed. It was Pat and Brian Lemley. Can't go back and punish Snake. Their apartment, they were living together. And so they were intercepting some crazy stuff like. Like the case agent Rashid would call me. He goes, you're not going to believe what that. And I'd go, well, I've been with them. They're crazy. And he would tell me. I go, yeah, that is crazy. I mean, they're. They were. They would sit around and just have brainstorming sessions. Like, what if we went and broke out all the saints? They call these mass murderers, these white supremacists, saints. So I usually don't like to say their names. Especially in tactical training, we never say the bad person's name because that's what they want. They want the recognition. But for the purposes of this and it being undercover, I'll tell you, they'll say, St. Ruth is St. Ruth Day. So in the end, the St. Ruth Day is. Is the day of the massacre. St. Bowers Day, tree of Life, shooting in Pittsburgh. You've got Saint Brevik, you've got Saint Tarrant, you know, and they actually have a leaderboard. And on the leaderboard it says, you know, I think Brevik's at the top, so 77 dash zero. So he killed 77. He didn't die. And you keep going down, and it's like all the numbers. And that's your scoreboard. It's the leaderboard. And then at the bottom it says, you know, what are you going to do to make the list? Like, they would have an active shooter event. White supremacist guy, I think he shot up a Greek festival. Trying to remember where that one was at. I think he posted it on 4chan or 8chan before he went out. I've got it in my teaching block, but he had a malfunction and he didn't know how to clear it, so he only got to shoot one person. You would be shocked at the beating that dude was taken from. Accelerationism. White supremacists in these chat channels, they're like, what an idiot he needs to be. He could have killed so many more. I mean, it's just hate.
- [201:36]
A
Like, you look. Because I think people look at these guys and they go, oh, it's a lone wolf, right? Like, oh, it's a crazy guy.
- [201:41]
B
Can be. Bowers was kind of like, but that's the whole thing with domestic terrorism. How do you know, right? You can have 400 people spewing hateful stuff online, but only one of them is going to take it to the next level level.
- [201:53]
A
So you are.
- [201:53]
B
What are we doing?
- [201:54]
A
Acting as a lone wolf? But you're in these group chats and you're on these forums talking to people Getting probably not only ideology but also getting amped up. People are.
- [202:03]
B
He's looking up. You're probably not going to be able to pull up the saints list because it'll get flagged.
- [202:07]
A
I mean, like, if I put it.
- [202:08]
B
On a Google Drive, there's a. There's an unbelievable recruitment video for white supremacy. It's called the lion of Europe. You can't find it. I tried. I put it on a Google Drive. We were going to do a show, like a documentary, and I put it on the Google Drive. It flagged it right away. And I. But I'm actually a good guy. We're using this for, you know. But it doesn't matter.
- [202:26]
A
I mean, I'm glad.
- [202:27]
B
No, it's great.
- [202:28]
A
I'm glad people are flagging it.
- [202:29]
B
But you can find it on like bitchute.
- [202:31]
A
Sure.
- [202:31]
B
You find on the discord and other things like that. So. So now we're working that. So let me go back to you for the satanic stuff. The accelerationist movement is. It's okay. Not Christian, right? Pretty much. Although I have heard and I. And I've talked to a lot of colleagues that are still in the game game. The. The Christian identity is starting to come back in popularity. And when I heard that, I was talking to a source and I was like, oh, well, good, because it's better than acceleration this. And he said, no, it's not. And I went, it's not. He said, scott, they don't believe that they're humans. They believe they are lizard people. They believe they are snakes because they came from Satan himself. So therefore, if you murder them, it's a soulless murder. And I went, well, damn.
- [203:17]
A
Yeah. I'm like, yeah, any ideology can get twisted into something perverse.
- [203:21]
B
So what I learned from me working it as a case agent, as an undercover and talking to sources and stuff is that if you scratch the sur. If you find an accelerationist group and you scratch the surface enough, somewhere in almost all of them there's going to be an order of nine angles member. And 09A is white supremacy that is deeply satanic. It gets into all kinds of like. Like angels, but they're demons, kind of. It's just another realm of. Of whatever. It hurts my head to try to dive into it, but maybe if you put in a video game format, I'd be better. But I'm sure it's out there. I'm sure there's one sound like Diablo or something. But.
- [204:08]
A
So how does this case ultimately come to. To wrap up, you have this murder plot and there's sufficient evidence.
- [204:14]
B
And so again, case by case basis, because you're. You can. You and I can open the statute and read in black and white what the crime is and what we need. But I need to talk to the Assistant United States Attorney. I need to talk to the. The D.A. i need to talk to the, you know, solicitor and figure out what exactly they want because they may want more than what I was thinking or less. So now, okay, we've got them. We've gone to the place. But do we have enough? Well, let's try to tighten it up if we can and try to stop all this on a timeline, because the clock's ticking. Right, so fast forward to we are now coming to the end. We're in January of 2020. Covid was already here. They weren't calling it Covid yet.
- [205:01]
A
And do they have a date set? Like, do you see the clock going?
- [205:03]
B
Yeah, because we know when the gun rights rallies to be. Ah, right. So we're watching that. And then now Helter Skelter has had his back surgery. I have now provided the paperwork that shows that. I've been doing some research on the place. So preparing for the takedown, the case team, myself, anybody else involved. We. We were thinking the most dis. Disadvantage for an arrest we had would probably be Luke, because how do you really sneak onto a hundred acre farm and not be seen? Right. So if I was going to put myself. We all agreed if. If I was going to assist with one of the arrests, probably be Luke. So I did a ruse where I got him to go to lunch. So we. We. I go by this time, by the way, I. My back was spasming. I had to put me in the floor for like a week. The only thing that got me out of the floor was prednisone. On. I thought that my original lumbar fusion was just. I had a bad disc and something was spasm. What I found out after the case is my. My original lumbar fusion broke approximately 15 years prior. What? And I'd been going around with just a broke back, like the cadaver bone dissipated, no disc. And I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. So anyway, I didn't know that at the time, Scott, but I know.
- [206:24]
A
Go to the doctor, bro.
- [206:25]
B
I'm not smart. I did. I thought I didn't have an MRI on my bag. I didn't. I thought it was, you know, I thought it was fused. Who knew?
- [206:31]
A
Damn.
- [206:33]
B
So you're saying that wasn't disc pain? That was my Back. Is my back together?
- [206:37]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [206:38]
B
So I. I had to postpone the takedown or my visit. And I was, man, I'm like, I'm. So I said, if it was an arm and extremity, my neck, my. My chest, my knees, my ankle, I'd be fast. I can't sit. I cannot sit without this thing feeling like somebody's ripping my spine out of my butt back. So I get a little bit of physical therapy. I get the electric stem machine and everybody. All the headquarters units that were involved, all the case teams across the United States that were involved, I got a lot of support. They were really cool. They're like, man, you get yourself well. So we postponed it a week. So on a Friday, I fly to Baltimore. I meet the case team, hang out. Saturday morning I get up early, I drive to Delaware, New York, Delaware. And I help can't go back and punish Snake sight in their thermal weapons. And by the way, they've been talking about not just freeing the saints. Like, can you imagine if we freed roof from prison? They were talking about, like taking out cops, doing car stuff like the snipe mercace. They're like, dude, it could be nighttime. I could take out this cop. And what does that do? It immediately gives you weapons, a bulletproof vest, maybe a cop radio. So they're just stacking up their kit for the booger Lou. Crazy talk. So I drive out there. I spend the whole day with them, signing in weapons. We have some drinks. There were things that the case team wanted me to try to close for them to find, to close that loop of information. And the assistant. I mean, in the United States attorney's office, by blessing I was able to do it. You can't. I mean, I don't know how to explain it. You're basically playing chess or master of puppets. I can't just come in and throw out shit. And it's going to be suspicious. But if the conversation can turn and no matter if I'm drinking or party, whatever, I've got to be able to still be with my wits. And it just worked out that I was able to maneuver the conversations to answer all the questions that they needed. And I actually found the camp. I'm pretty sure I found the. One of the cameras where it was at because I'd seen some of the stuff, stuff from the recordings. And even though I'm sitting at a table facing the wall, I. I've got. I think can't go back was to my right and. And punished Snake was to my left. But at one point, when I know we've gotten everything, I even look at the one they weren't looking at me. I made sure. But I look at the. As I take a sip of my drink, I go like that and I wink because I'm like, I know the case seems washed, dodging. So I get that. We do that and I, I go back late, close to Baltimore, meet the case team, pass off everything. And then I'm on a plane Sunday to go to Georgia. I leave Baltimore, go to Atlanta, miss my planes, delayed by like four hours. The rental car place closed. And I finally get a car. I get up to north Georgia, and that's when I meet Helter Skelter. And that's when we tightened it up for him. He got the brass bags, he got the solvent trap for the silencer. That's when he tells me he wants to pop his cherry.
- [209:44]
A
So he's feeling good?
- [209:45]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's been waiting for this for two years. He can't wait to kill somebody. And. And by this time also, Luke had already started a list of lefty journalists and media personnel. I said, so you're actually planning on us going and killing people who are on TV and stuff? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, it's a good thing we're doing this family first. It'll be a nice test, you know.
- [210:06]
A
Like names, you know, like, you, like, see the list. You'd be like, I'm familiar with these people.
- [210:10]
B
Yeah. Mostly Atlanta based, but yeah. And that's just starting though, you know?
- [210:14]
A
Yeah.
- [210:15]
B
So I think I went home late. Late, late, late that Sunday. I got home maybe like sunrise Monday morning. And by Monday night or Tuesday morning, I was back on my way to Rome, Georgia, because I had to meet with the SWAT team that was going to be doing the takedown down, talk about what we're going to do. And then we went. I went with Luke to do a face to face vetting of a new incoming member, former army guy, medic. Little did he know he was sitting down with an FBI undercover and his whole organization was going to be taken down in the next two days. But we, we got up. So I'd be Wednesday, Wednesday morning. Yeah, Wednesday I go and I meet Luke, Luke to pick him up at his house. And I'd already kind of laid the groundwork of like, look, we don't need to be riding around with weapons and stuff. We don't need to be on anybody's radar. But I played off of what they were saying. I didn't put the words in their mouth. But if we're getting ready to do this murder coming up, we don't need to be on some, like, traffic stop where we had guns. So made sure he didn't have a gun the best I could and pulled out of his place. And I feigned that something was wrong with my truck, but no bullshit. As I'm getting ready to fake. Did you hear that? I swear to you, man, something in my truck goes bam. Like that I didn't hit a rock. And I. And I said, did you hear that? And he goes, yeah. And I go, I swear, if that brake caliper's frozen again, I said, I just paid to get that fixed. Which was a true story. So I pull out, I pull left, and I go, I gotta check it. And I pull over on the side of the road, kind of pinning him up against the fence. Fence. And then I get out, and I'm around the back of the truck, looking. Another truck pulls up. It's a ruse. And he goes, hey, man, you need some help? And I look, and I go, holy. Are you kidding me? I can't. What are you doing here? He goes, what are you doing here? I go, man, I ain't seen you forever. And I walk up, I go, what the. What a small freaking world. I go, man, is this a new truck? As I'm doing that, Luke's distracted. SWAT team comes over the hill in the Bearcat. And. And then I jump in the back of the truck, and I'm like, go, go, go. And then you hear all the. You hear all the SWAT commands. And luckily that nobody got hurt. They didn't have to shoot tear gas in. And they got Luke. And then later that day, they picked up Caterly at his pestilence at his house. Jacob Caterly is the name. And they pick up Helter Skelter when he's getting off of work because he was actually an IT guy who had a job. And Helter was like, this is a perfect cover. He goes, nobody thinks I'm this. He goes, they think I'm an IT guy. And this is gonna be perfect to start killing people. And so we rest them on Wednesday. Keep it very quiet. Quiet. Thursday morning, Washington field office SWAT and Baltimore FBI SWAT hit all those. That three crew and took them out. By Friday, it's coming out now. I'm still in the main chat group as Pale Horse, but they're like, hey, has anybody heard from TMB or Mr. K. He changed his name. Has anybody heard from Wolfhound or Hounds of Hell? Or whatever the hell Pestilence was. And like, no. And they were trying to hit me, and I wasn't responding. I was just monitoring, monitoring. And then the affidavits start. Then the news starts hitting, and they're like, holy. It says that there's an FBI undercover in the group. They go, who the hell's a fed in this group? And then I'm just watching and I'm watching and I'm watching and I'm watching. And around, like, 5:00 on Friday night, Roman comes on Nazaro, and he says something to the effect of, I don't know if we could ever found him. He was that good of a movie member. He said he made it to every training. He said, he's one of our best members. He goes, he made it to every training. Which should be. Maybe that should have been a red flag. I didn't make it to every training. I didn't. I kind of did it on purpose too, you know, but human nature, he's like. He goes. He goes, I don't know if we could have done anything to find him. And then I go, okay, he knows it's me. He knows it's me. And then I get, you've been removed by Roman, or Roman Wolf has removed you from. From the chat group. So I screenshotted that. I sent it to all the case teams headquarters, and I put. And I'm out.
- [214:15]
A
Wow.
- [214:17]
B
And then it just kind of kept going from there. They did have some coverage in the group, I will tell you that. Somebody. Somebody. Actually the members were talking after I got booted, and they were saying things like, I got this because the case team printed out. And when I came into the office, it was up on my. It was up on my cubicle, but it was like, are you saying it was the dude with the deep voice? And they're like, yeah. And they're like, pale horse. They go, yeah. And one guy's like, there's no way. He was one of the most solid neo Nazis I ever met. And then the other one was like, there was something really endearing about him.
- [214:55]
A
You're kind of flattered.
- [214:57]
B
So when. When they showed me that everybody's getting the joint chairs and task force and they've been involved with this undercover and everything, they're all gathered around, and I go, see, they do love me. I go, these are my people. But, yeah, so that was that one man.
- [215:10]
A
So what about the Canadian guy?
- [215:12]
B
So he got arrested. They did try to flush their phones and everything, but everybody pled guilty.
- [215:19]
A
Wow.
- [215:19]
B
Everybody. Canada came down and did. I didn't real. Somebody sent it to me. There's a journalist named Michelle shepherd out of Canada and she is a journalist, she's done all kinds of stuff. But she with cbc did a six episode podcast called White Hot Hate out of Canada and it was all on the base and somebody sent it to me. Hey Scott, check this out. This is the base. I was still in the FBI at the time. And I'm like, I listen to all six episodes. She interviewed Nazaro, she interviewed Luke Lane's dad. And I'm like, it was really good. And I'm like, I'm listening to Luke Lane's dad. I mean he said something like, I knew, I knew he was. He goes, I knew. I'll say he's Scott, if that's his real name. Because I knew he was either a fed or a pedophile. And I'm thinking, but yet you let me hang out with your son for seven months on your property. You got me to help you do work. So that's that whole I knew I knew you kind of thing.
- [216:19]
A
And did the family that was targeted, were they ever informed of this plot?
- [216:23]
B
Yes.
- [216:23]
A
Were they informed before the actual operation?
- [216:26]
B
We had to keep it. We. So there's. I don't know what all happened behind the scenes, but sometimes you make that. But the only, the only way we can really do that is if we have absolute control of the situation. In other words, you hire me to murder somebody, I get the ticket. I know you're not out shopping for somebody else. That's what we want, right? So yeah, they let them know. And some people have said that they weren't an antifa members, but others said there was a flag out in front of their house. I don't know that they're a couple. They're not a couple. I don't know how it ended. But I do know that when they went and told them, hey, this is what was going on and we thwarted this murder plot and all this, they were going to burn the house down. That was a pestilence was going to burn the house down afterwards. And it's like, hey man, even Helter Skelter said, you're going to burn it down to like get rid of evidence. And he goes, that. And it's a huge fuck you to you. Not only did we come in here, murder you and everything else and here would burn your house down. And I'm like, yeah. And yeah, so crazy, crazy stuff. Yeah.
- [217:32]
A
I mean it's like concerning to Me especially. You see so much rhetoric now. So much hateful rhetoric. You know, you go on Twitter, Facebook, there's just a lot of negativity. And I think sometimes at least I'm guilty of this. You know, you see it, you kind of brush it off. You're like, oh, these are crazy people. Oh, this guy's trying to be provocative. And you don't realize that there are actual. These are recruitment tools. Yeah. These racist little memes. That's a recruitment tool.
- [217:54]
B
Absolutely.
- [217:55]
A
Or it could be to pull people in.
- [217:57]
B
So picture you've been bullied, because this is what I saw a lot, and it goes across all spectrums. But I will say this from what I saw. First of all, let me finish that one story. The couple, once they were informed that we stopped everything, and it. You know what the guy said? Is this the part where I'm supposed to say thank you? No, you're welcome.
- [218:21]
A
Come on, bro.
- [218:22]
B
No, you're welcome. Keep hating. Let me know how that works out for you.
- [218:27]
A
Come on.
- [218:28]
B
Yeah, for real. I'm like, yeah, yeah, there you go. Thankless job. Anyhow.
- [218:34]
A
Oh, you were telling me about kids that get bullied.
- [218:36]
B
Like, yeah, okay. Thank you. What I saw a lot of was, was young dudes, some broken home, some not. But the majority can't get a partner.
- [218:52]
A
Incel. Incel, yeah.
- [218:53]
B
Almost very close to being an incel. And a lot of people don't know what that is. Involuntary celibate, which means they're white. It comes. There's a white supremacist group, incels, and they are so pissed off that they can't hook up with a girl girl. That they now hate women, and they want to murder the women too. Which doesn't make sense to me because you're still not hooking up with anybody if you kill all the women.
- [219:17]
A
Yeah.
- [219:18]
B
However, I'll give you one on the women from the base. I said, hey, I hear you guys talking about ethnostate. We're neo Nazis. We want this. Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay. Well, you know, I got a woman. She's not for sure. I've never heard you guys talk anything about procreation. Pestilence and Luke. Tm be. Oh, we're just gonna. The women. Okay. You just gonna rape the women? They go, yeah, we'll just. Whenever we want to, we'll just go. And I kind of giggled. And I looked over at Helter Skelter, who had a girlfriend, another rarity, and he giggled, and they go, what? And I go, you guys don't have a lot of experience for women. Do you like? No. I go, I don't know what kind of caveman shit you think is gonna last, but it ain't gonna last forever. I said, it's sooner or later you're gonna go to sleep and you might wake up missing parts you went to bed with.
- [220:02]
A
Yeah. You know, it's gonna be a chicken rebellion.
- [220:04]
B
Yeah.
- [220:04]
A
They're gonna be coming.
- [220:04]
B
Not too good.
- [220:05]
A
Yeah.
- [220:06]
B
So, yeah, just insane stuff. Diving deep. But again, bullied. Can't get a partner. Outcast. Some are on the spectrum, like that. That Asperger's kind of autism thing, which I'm not saying is a. I mean, it's just. No, I've seen it.
- [220:24]
A
You have a base level of intelligence that you're able to put together all these ancient documents and books and.
- [220:30]
B
And then you dive deep into a smartphone, which is not smart. Right. But you dive phone. And in today's stuff, I mean, I've had these conversations with family members. We're like, I know for a fact. Really? How do you know? Well, I read it right here. Look at it. Oh, it looks real, but it's not real. Yeah, it's not real. And you dive in and you go. And you sit up till six in the morning hating.
- [220:52]
A
And you're not. You're not a loser, actually. You're the supreme race.
- [220:56]
B
Yeah.
- [220:57]
A
You're not a loser. It's not even your fault. It's actually these people. Yeah, it's. It's these other races. It's Jews, it's black people. It's. It's these people keeping you down. That's why you're in the position.
- [221:06]
B
And you. And again, you can use real stories for your propaganda. I've seen that a lot, of course, like when the. When the. I think it was a three black teenagers and it might have been a female there. And there it was. It was viral. They. It's a mentally physically challenged boy, white boy, and they are beating him in a corner and stuff. So you show that in your propaganda video.
- [221:28]
A
This is.
- [221:28]
B
All of them. Look. Brutal murder in Knoxville, Tennessee. Brutal. Brutal. Young white girl, white boy, three black guys, black female. I mean, they raped them repeatedly. They. I mean, they stuffed them in barrels alive. And I said it was brutal. I mean, it was, like, bad.
- [221:45]
A
Yeah.
- [221:46]
B
So you show stuff like that, and then look at the other side. You do the same thing. They can say, hey, here's where the whites did this to blacks or whatever. And you. And you just. You're just thriving on hate. And what I like to say Is man. Just break it down between good and evil. I don't care whether you're left or right. Right. I mean, if you're far left, I'm probably going to think you're an idiot. If you're far, just say extreme left. You're extreme left. I'll think you're an idiot if you're extreme right. I know you're an idiot. I've been in there with them. But it's okay for you to like something I don't. It's okay for me to like something you don't. We can still get along. Yeah. You like to eat, Mark? Me too.
- [222:20]
A
How crazy. Look at us.
- [222:22]
B
You like to breathe? Me too. Yeah. I like oxygen.
- [222:24]
A
Have a beer, listen to some music.
- [222:26]
B
That's it. Yeah.
- [222:26]
A
That's why I love the work that you're doing and, like, it reminds me almost of Daryl Davis away. Are you familiar with him?
- [222:32]
B
I don't think I am.
- [222:33]
A
Oh, you're gonna love this guy.
- [222:34]
B
Okay.
- [222:34]
A
You guys have a lot in common, actually. Daryl Davis. Would you mind pulling up a picture of Daryl Davis? He. I think. I don't know if he's religious. He's actually a musician. He's like a blues musician. And he would basically infiltrate clans. Yeah, this guy right here, he would infiltrate. Him infiltrate the kkk.
- [222:53]
B
Oh, yeah. No, he. He befriended the KKK leader and he. I just didn't know his name.
- [222:57]
A
Yeah, multiple names. Multiple. Multiple KKK members.
- [223:00]
B
Yes.
- [223:01]
A
And just like, his whole philosophy was like, oh, these people hate me. But he goes, how can they hate me if they don't know me?
- [223:06]
B
Exactly.
- [223:06]
A
And he's able to go in and actually, like, inoculate them against their. Their anger and their rage by just being a real human being and doing exactly what you just did. He's a musician. He's an amazing musician. He goes, you like jazz? And they go, yeah. He goes, I like jazz, too. We should play jazz sometime and play music and watch football and have a drink and actually be human beings that realize we have way more in common than, you know, the color of our skin or where we grew up. Up. Or any of the other.
- [223:30]
B
Yeah.
- [223:31]
A
So I don't know, I look at his story and it reminds me of. Of you in a way, you know.
- [223:35]
B
Well, I'm flattered by that. I try and humbled again. If you break it down between good and evil, I mean, there are some people who cannot tell the difference between good and evil. And there's. There's terms for that, but generally, you know, the difference between good and bad. Yeah, maybe you're so desensitized and you're older and you blocked it, but when you were young, you did, you know, you knew you were going to get in trouble when you made that decision if you did, if you got caught, you know, so if you break it down between good and evil, for me personally, it just makes, makes it easier. Right. And I just think more people need to come towards the middle. Yeah. You know, I don't care. I mean, that's fine. Let's sit down, have a conversation. I joke sometimes. I'm like, hey, like I, I, I say it jokingly, but I mean it seriously as well. I, I'm like, if you took a white supremacist who hated anybody non white and you put them on an island so small they can see the other side, and then the only other person you stick on that island is what they hate. I don't care. You know, black, Hispanic, female, male, I don't know. Either they're going to kill each other or you're going to start sitting there going, man, we have a lot in common. You know, it's not that bad. You know, this, that and the other.
- [224:52]
A
I mean, look at Vietnam, right? Like, you have these, like, black soldiers and white racist soldiers.
- [224:56]
B
Military is great.
- [224:57]
A
Funking up together.
- [224:58]
B
Yeah. Military and sports. Yeah, I got mine through sports. Yeah, but that's when your brother is your brother and it doesn't matter where they're from. And we might fight all week, but come Friday night or Saturday for college. Yeah. Nobody touching you.
- [225:13]
A
Yeah. Do you, do you have any advice for any young kids that might be listening? Maybe, maybe they're not having kids. Maybe they're, you know, 19, 20, and they're seeing this stuff on Twitter. They're seeing like, oh, Hitler wasn't all bad. They're not showing you this side of Hitler, you know, or like, oh, look at, look, look at what these people are doing. And these people actually control all of Hollywood and we gotta watch out for them. And they're falling into these traps. What, what could you say to them to, to pull them out of it?
- [225:35]
B
Well, I'd like to say make sure you research and research from all sides. I've done this as an undercut. Like I've been in these groups and I'm like, is that real? And then I look at cnn, I look at msnbc, I look at Fox, and I look at something else and I'm looking like, oh, this is bull. You know, but do your adequate research, but don't buy into the hate. Don't buy into the hate man. Spread. I mean, have I hated. Yeah. Can I hate? Yeah. But is it rewarding? Really Takes a lot of energy. But by smiling at somebody, spreading love, being jovial. Pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. You know, you don't, you don't have to. Just be careful what you're diving into. Here's what I'd say. If something is trying to pull you away from your family. Family and good things. It goes back to the 80s and before cults, gangs, broken homes. They're looking for somebody from a broken home. Hell, pedophiles look for a kid from a broken home. That way it's hard to prove it's a, it's an adult versus a kid on the stand and it's years later, you know, it's almost praying on the week, you know, but just be careful, careful. You know, this inclusion. I want to be a part. We. I think most people want to be a part of something, want to belong. That's why it feels good when you're in a group, you know? But yeah, I mean, did Hitler do some powerful things? I mean, apparently, I mean, you see how many people were marching for one dude screaming angrily. I've seen that in Korea. I've seen it too many places, you know, Know. But I would just dodge the hate man and talk to somebody, find you somebody. Don't, don't sit there and let that stuff fester. Can't talk to your parent. Talk to somebody.
- [227:24]
A
Yeah.
- [227:25]
B
Reach out.
- [227:26]
A
Yeah, I think that's great. In addition to that, even I, I had a friend, my buddy Jennings, he infiltrated a bunch of cults and he was a journalist that was doing work on these different, you know, doomsday cults. And he said the things that the cult members did that I'm sure some of these groups do the same thing. Thing is that they tell the members, hey, your family's not going to understand what we're doing. Your friends aren't going to understand, your girlfriend's not going to understand, and they're going to call you crazy and they're going to say that you're out of your mind. But you're not out of your mind. You're actually grounded in the, in reality, you're red pilled. And then when their family's like, hey, what's this group, this cult that you're hanging out with? Like, what's the deal with that? Is it a cult? What are you guys doing? This is stupid. Don't do that. They validate what the leader has been telling them. Yeah, they, they push them farther into it by yelling at them, calling them stupid, saying it's a waste of time. It's telling them that these people are all losing losers and that the better approach is to be curious and ask questions. And ideally, by asking open ended questions, you can lead them out of it. So what is this group that you're going to? What are you guys actually all about? What are you guys actually doing? I'm curious. I'm genuinely interested. What are you reading? What kind of books are a part of the ideology and that by asking them the questions and getting them to really think about it, I think that's a more effective way to kind of pull them out.
- [228:30]
B
Yeah. And having a conversation. Yeah, just having a conversation about it. And educate yourself. I mean, look how many people followed. We already mentioned it today, Branch Davidians. How many people thought that dude was, he was the Messiah. I'm like, I'm a Christ follower, you know? Have I always walked the chalk line? No. Has my faith been there through my whole life? Yeah, but I can pretty much tell you about the time the Messiah told me he could have sex with my daughters and my wife. I'd have probably been after, you know, I mean, I'd have been like, well, what's behind door number two? Yeah, I don't think so.
- [229:08]
A
Scott, you're a good man. I'm. I'm genuinely grateful for, for your work and, and what you've done over the past, you know, 20s, 20something years. And I'm glad that you're going to find some time now to kind of relax in a different way. Obviously you're not going to stop working. I know. I don't think you have that gear, but, but it's, it's cool to see you sharing these stories and getting it out. Your book, Pale Horse.
- [229:28]
B
Horse, That's a code name, Pale Horse. Yeah. And it's. The subtitle is How I Infiltrated America's Nazis. I like the jacket of the book because it lets you know the book's not just about white supremacy. I mean, it was public corruption, murder for hires. Scary stuff is an arc. The outlaws, a lot of stuff with family, a lot of stuff with my faith, but it all revolves around the undercover, so. Yeah, but code name Pale Horse, that's awesome.
- [229:55]
A
Book is out. Maybe a movie one day.
- [229:56]
B
We'll see a TV series.
- [229:58]
A
Yeah, maybe a TV series.
- [229:59]
B
Series.
- [230:00]
A
It could be cool.
- [230:01]
B
It could be like the Wire meets Breaking Bad meets Sons of Anarchy. You got the same that you got that core unit.
- [230:09]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [230:09]
B
But every season is a new but.
- [230:11]
A
I want to see you play you though.
- [230:13]
B
Come on.
- [230:14]
A
Come on. Now we got.
- [230:15]
B
I'll take apart though. Yeah, I've been in some stuff I got. I killed somebody in that movie.
- [230:19]
A
I was an armor on who's who should play you.
- [230:22]
B
Oh, boy. I don't know. It's a good question because when we went through this after the Rolling Stones art article, there was somebody. I won't say who, but their team told me he really wanted to do me, be me, do me, whatever. I don't know, you know, no, no judgment here, but I just remember looking and going, he couldn't do all those roles. I mean, he couldn't be like the biker end of it. I'm not that way anymore. I'm just like, dude, I'm.
- [230:49]
A
I don't know, Christian Bale. Let him do it. He can do anything.
- [230:52]
B
Yeah.
- [230:53]
A
Well, Scott, this has been awesome, man. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time. And next time you're back in New York, I would love to. To sit down again. I know you got plenty more stories.
- [231:01]
B
Absolutely.
- [231:02]
A
Thank you, brother. If you've made it to the end of this episode, you are clearly someone who understands that beneath every historical event lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered. You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than any fiction. And we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of. Of historical events. We dive into the stories that textbooks never told you, the secrets that challenge the course of nations, and the forgotten tales that deserve to be remembered. Let's continue this journey of discovery together. Take the conversation from your headphones into your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description today in history. Because every day holds a secret waiting to be revealed. Thank you for being part of our historical journey. We'll see you next time.