NYC Investigator Uncovers Satanic Ritual Murder & More Stories | Barbara Butcher

Summary

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Camp Gagnon: "NYC Investigator Uncovers Satanic Ritual Murder & More Stories"

Guest: Barbara Butcher (Former NYC Death Investigator)
Host: Mark Gagnon
Date: March 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Camp Gagnon plunges deep into the harrowing and haunting world of ritualistic deaths, voodoo, Santeria practices, and psychological trauma with Barbara Butcher, renowned former NYC death investigator. Drawing on thousands of crime scenes, Barbara shares chilling stories, psychological insights, notable cases, and the unknowns of the job. Her frank, often darkly humorous recounting provides an unfiltered glimpse into both the mechanics and the emotional toll of confronting violent, occult, and inexplicable deaths in America’s largest city.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Realities of Ritualistic and Occult Death Scenes

• Santeria and Voodoo in NYC: Barbara describes witnessing homes filled with ritual altars, animal remains, and cultural artifacts (03:26).
  • “Santeria is a valid form of religious practice of worship using the old gods from African origins… I did come to a house, an apartment. Someone was dead, a woman. And there was an altar…” (Barbara Butcher, 03:26)
• The Power of Belief: She recounts how belief in curses can be so psychologically strong it becomes deadly, notably in Haitian voodoo communities:
  • “What scared me is that I believe that part of the rituals was to either cure someone of something or curse someone with something… they actually do die of fear, of terror.” (Barbara Butcher, 06:09)
  • Host relates this to The Serpent and the Rainbow and the origins of the zombie myth (07:35).
• Case Example – Symbols and Fear: Both discuss the placebo effect, how belief in curses produces tangible, fatal results:
  • “It’s a mental response to a physical threat that is terrifying because you think the voodoo gods are going to destroy you.” (Barbara Butcher, 06:34)

Ritual Crime Scene Investigation and Challenges

• Consulting Experts: Calls on anthropologists are routine for interpreting the symbolism and substances left at ritual crime scenes (05:12).
• Encounter with a Psychic: Barbara was once approached by a psychic volunteering to search for a missing person (Irene Silverman) using divining rods, but no body was found. The scene was notable for an ad hoc altar with a dog’s head, ashes, and crosses—a suspected “protective” spell (11:48).
• Usefulness of Psychics: Barbara remains skeptical of psychic detectives, noting rare cases where they contributed factual information—possibly acquired through more mundane means (15:22).

The Psychological Effects of the Job

• Trauma and Repressed Memories: Barbara describes the effects of PTSD on memory and perceptual distortions:
  • “A lot of it is blocked…certain things I remember walking into strange cases, and then it goes, like, blank.” (Barbara Butcher, 16:41)
• Therapeutic Techniques: She speaks candidly about exposure therapy and reading her own reports years later, discovering major discrepancies between her memories and the documented facts—a coping mechanism to dissociate from traumatic reality (17:55, 20:03):
  • “My psyche turned it off, protected myself, and then created a scenario. But to read my own report and say, wait a minute… That scared the hell out of me.” (Barbara Butcher, 20:50)
• Neuroscientific Comparisons: The hosts compare this to famous split-brain experiments, illustrating how the mind fills memory gaps to protect itself (25:37–29:36).

Gender Differences in Violent Crimes and Deaths

• Men vs. Women: Barbara outlines differences in both method and psychology:
  • “Men are more aggressive… Angry versus the sad. Angry people…jump off a building and they make a huge mess…The sad…take pills, sit in the tub and just fall asleep and die.” (Barbara Butcher, 30:08)
  • Women seldom commit strangulation; most female killers use less violent means. She recalls a case where a mother killed her daughter's rapist and implicitly supports her (34:24).

Justice, Revenge, and Systemic Failure

• Cases of Vigilante Justice: Discussion of Clark Fredericks killing his childhood abuser, a former sheriff who escaped charges for years. The hosts argue about moral ambiguity when the legal system fails (35:47).
  • “Good for you, Clark… Sometimes you really, you get it. You understand it.” (Barbara Butcher, 36:41)

Famous and Heartbreaking Cases

• Jonathan Levin (teacher and son of an executive) was murdered by his students:
  • “His son Jonathan was known for being the most amazing teacher… And then two of his students…tortured him to get his PIN code…stabbed him. They cut him slowly. It’s horrific.” (Barbara Butcher, 37:53)
• Personal Encounters with Grief: Barbara shares stories about bereaved families and her role as a “nightmare” to them, explaining why she never attends their funerals (40:56):
  • “You are a nightmare. I’m trying to wake up. You are a nightmare. And I just held her for a while until she calmed herself.” (Barbara Butcher, 42:02)

Coping with Death: Humor and Irony

• Dark Humor as Survival: Laughter as a psychological release from despair:
  • “But if I don’t laugh, I will die of sadness and despair. So, yeah, you need a release valve. It’s dark humor.” (Barbara Butcher, 46:48)
• Ironic Scenes: A morbidly comic story about a rolling severed head and a missing head at the morgue, as well as joking with police at chopped-up body scenes (34:34, 46:09):
  • “‘Hey, give me a hand, would you? Oh, never mind. I found one.’ My God, is that morbid?” (Barbara Butcher, 47:09)

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Memorable Quotes

• On Ritual and Belief:
  • “What scared me is that I believe that part of the rituals was to either cure someone of something or curse someone with something. And what’s really interesting about that is it works.” — Barbara Butcher (05:28)
• On Trauma and Memory:
  • “My psyche turned it off, protected myself, and then created a scenario. But to read my own report and say, wait a minute… That scared the hell out of me.” — Barbara Butcher (20:50)
• On Gallow’s Humor:
  • “But if I don’t laugh, I will die of sadness and despair. So, yeah, you need a release valve. It’s dark humor.” — Barbara Butcher (46:48)
• On Justice:
  • “Sometimes you really – you get it. You understand it.” — Barbara Butcher (36:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Santeria & Ritual Deaths: 03:26–06:51
• Voodoo, Fear, and Placebo Effect: 06:30–09:44
• Case of Irene Silverman & Psychic Investigation: 11:48–15:49
• Psychics and Police Work: 15:22–16:32
• Trauma, Memory, and Psychology of Investigators: 16:41–21:00
• Split-brain Experiments & Coping Mechanisms: 25:37–29:36
• Gender Differences in Killing: 30:08–34:19
• Vigilante Justice & Systemic Failures: 34:24–37:36
• Famous Cases – Jonathan Levin: 37:53–40:49
• Relationship with Families & Grief: 40:56–43:23
• Dark Humor and Irony: 34:34, 46:09–48:02

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Tone & Takeaways

Though unflinching, Barbara’s insights fuse empathy, wisdom, and gallows humor, capturing both the horror and the humanity behind death investigation. The conversation is raw and reflective, punctuated with empathy for victims, survivors, and even herself as a witness to trauma. The episode challenges listeners to reconsider what we believe about ritual, belief, justice, memory, and the ways professionals survive the darkest realities.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host (Ad Read)]

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[Barbara Butcher]

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[Barbara Butcher]

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[Barbara Butcher]

Now there is There are people who practice voodoo out of Haiti. What scared me is that part of the rituals was to either cure someone of something or curse someone with something. And what's really interesting about that is it works.

[Podcast Host 1]

Santeria, voodoo, satanic, ritual murder.

[Podcast Host 2]

These types of deaths are very rare,

[Podcast Host 1]

but they do happen. And when they do, somebody has to walk into that room. Someone has to step over the candles and the blood and the animal remains, the all vultures, the strange symbols carved into the walls, and figure out what actually happened. And that person is our guest today, Barbara Butcher, the former NYC death investigator who has walked into thousands of violent scenes. Murders, ritual deaths, grifters, psychopaths, the darkest stuff that the city produces at 3am and she's the person that they call when someone's gone and no one knows why. And today we're going into all the weirdest corners. We're talking about the voodoo ritual deaths, what it's actually like walking into a Santeria altar scene and the time that she actually work with a psychic to locate a victim. We also talk about the symbolic crime scenes like curses and fear induced deaths and the placebo effect. Is it possible that someone can really die because they believe that they're cursed? This episode is fascinating, but it is dark and uncomfortable. So I encourage you to watch it with some discretion. And if you're interested in crime in ritual death and ultimately what death can really teach us about how to live, this is the episode for you. Barbara is fantastic and an amazing storyteller and I think you guys are really going to enjoy. So without further ado, sit back, relax and welcome to camp.

[Podcast Host 2]

I wanted to ask you specifically, you've dealt with so many cases where the scenes are fairly Cut and dry. You can tell more or less what happened here. There's a. Some type of gang affiliation, there's some random act of violence. I want to know about the cases that seem more ritualized, that seem like they have weird details that are strange, unexplainable, perhaps connected to some type of ritualized murder or some type of religious crime where you showed up to a scene and you looked around and you said, this is bizarre and unlike anything I've ever seen. What comes to mind.

[Barbara Butcher]

Centoria. Centoria is a valid form of religious practice of worship using the old gods from African origins or Hispanic, Cuban, Dominican origins, where, you know, when slaves from Africa were brought to the islands and intermarried with the local indigenous people, a lot of the old gods came with them. And so this form of worship came up somehow in there. They became a sacrificial element. Now, I have never seen a person sacrificed in a santeria ritual, But I did come to a house, an apartment. Someone was dead, a woman. And there was an altar. I can't remember the God to whom it was, but it was a huge altar filled with all kinds of offerings. You know, an apple, a piece of cooked flesh, a little burned pot with something in there that looked like a bone. And all around the house, there are different icons and figures of the gods. And I thought, does this have anything to do with her death? And sadly, I don't remember what she died from. I wish I could remember a lot of things I blocked because they scared me, you know, wow. So I don't have the memory anymore. I cannot remember if she was murdered or it was a. It was a violent death.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Barbara Butcher]

But I cannot place it because it scared me.

[Podcast Host 2]

Really?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. And, you know, we had an anthropology consultant at the time, this is again, back in the 90s, and who came and said that that little bone there, the burned bone, that is an animal bone. So I was like, thank God, because it looked like a human figure

[Podcast Host 2]

and

[Barbara Butcher]

the little pieces of meat were like organs from an animal, like a charred heart. And what scared me is that I believe that part of the rituals was to either cure someone of something or curse someone with something. Now there are people who practice a voodoo out of Haiti, A particular brand of this so called voodoo religion in which there are curses put on people and spells and all kinds of things. And what's really interesting about that is it works in Haitian culture. There have been many cases of people who. They were told that the voodoo priest has put a curse upon you and you're going to Die. You're going to wither away and die in a month. And you know, they stop eating and they get hysterical and freaked out and they actually do d of fear of terror.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow. So it's a placebo response.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, it's like it's a mental response to a physical threat that is terrifying because you think of the voodoo priests. The voodoo gods are going to destroy you. And I'm wondering if there are any studies on that. I'd like to read a book about it.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

Because it happens.

[Podcast Host 2]

That is fascinating. Have you heard of the book the Serpent and the Rainbow?

[Barbara Butcher]

I've heard that name.

[Podcast Host 2]

Would you mind googling that? Christos. This was written by a anthropologist from Harvard that went down, I believe it was, to Haiti. And he was specifically looking at these witch doctors that were performing these types of spells, curses to the people of the island. And Christos, feel free to correct me if I'm off on this because this has been a long time since I've read the excerpts, but there was a specific case where there was a witch doctor or I guess a voodoo priest that was giving people drugs to effectively make it look like they died. And then they would handle the burial process and then they would exhume them

[Barbara Butcher]

and they come back to life and

[Podcast Host 2]

they weren't dead and they came back to life. And they either use this as proof of their divine powers that I can save this person, bring them back to life. And there's been a couple cases where the priests, these voodoo priests would then enslave these people where effectively they lived in their homes as like indentured servants and they would continue to give them drugs.

[Barbara Butcher]

That's the origin of zombies.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Barbara Butcher]

The zombie tale comes out of that where people are precisely this restored to life.

[Podcast Host 2]

Harvard ethnobotanist Wade Davis, that investigates Haitian food and pharmacology bases of zombies. So he travels to Haiti to uncover how these priests are using potion induced near death states to create these zombies as a part of this secret society, social control. Yeah. And it sounds insane.

[Podcast Host 3]

It is, but is documented by what

[Podcast Host 2]

seems like a, you know, a credible ethnobotanist that has, you know, done his diligence in this type of, this type of research.

[Barbara Butcher]

So I want to know what they use. Is it like a succinylcholine, but that stops you from breathing. So that could, it couldn't be that that's a complete paralytic, Right?

[Podcast Host 2]

I'm. I'm not sure. Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

I wonder what they use.

[Podcast Host 2]

Strange, right?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And this turned into a film in 88. But it's, it's such a bizarre thing, like the fact that. I guess this is the question, right, because sometimes I. I wonder about like these types of, like, curses and things like that. Because there's a part of me that's rooted in reality where I go, I've never seen anything like this. I can't fully submit to this idea that you're going to cast a spell on me. But if you believe that it's true, and perhaps there's some type of external medical force or a drug that's involved, could you create the effect as if it is true and then in the minds of the people that are watching it, it becomes reality?

[Barbara Butcher]

Sure.

[Podcast Host 2]

And then in that case, is it fair to say, oh, it's complete bullshit, where you're like, well, technically this guy did raise someone from the dead.

[Podcast Host 3]

Yeah, but not literally, but in the

[Podcast Host 2]

minds of the people around him and the mythos that he's built up contributes to his influence on the island.

[Barbara Butcher]

It's power.

[Podcast Host 2]

Absolutely.

[Barbara Butcher]

He can, he has control over life and death. He can bring you back.

[Podcast Host 2]

I mean, the most powerful.

[Barbara Butcher]

Wow.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Barbara Butcher]

I gotta read that book. Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

I wonder if you'd find it interesting.

[Barbara Butcher]

You know, the other thing I saw that was really just strange. If you remember the case of Irene Silverman, a well to do woman who lived on the Upper east side, had a beautiful townhouse and there were two grifters who came into her life. Shantae Kimes and her son, Kenneth Kimes. They were grifters, con artists, very, very close, very close. And Irene Silverman welcomed them into her home. They persuaded her that they were, you know, good intellectual people and they were looking for work in New York and they had university appointments, you know, whatever they talked her into, and she let them stay. Their goal was to kill her and take over the house, like have her sign it over to them in some way. They were really grifters. They had had a long history of these kind of crimes. Anyway, she disappears, can't find her anywhere, and police are looking everywhere, you know, like, what could this possibly be? Did they kill her? They never ever found a body. However, it is known that the foundation of a building next door was being repoured and a townhouse was built on top of it before anyone thought to say, wait, she might be under there. So that was a weird thing. But anyway, I was called by a psychic who said, listen, I'm a psychic, I think I know where Irene Silverman is. I think I know how to find her. And it's In a field in New Jersey by the marshes. She said this Saturday. Would you like to go with me and see if we can do it? Yeah, sure. I mean, I'll do anything as interesting and new and crazy. I like to learn stuff. So we go out. She's got a divining rod, you know, the kind that dips when you find water or dead bodies. Dowsing rods. That's it. And so we start walking through the field. Now, what I know is that it is possible to find bodies in a field by looking at several things. One is a depression in the ground approximately the size of a person. Because when you dig a hole, put something in it and then bury it back up, there's a lot of air in that dirt, so you'll see that it's sunken a bit. That's a good way to find someone, right? And I learned that the FBI Academy took a one week course on killers and how they hide bodies and stuff. So much fun.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

And so I was looking for that. I was also looking for areas where the grass, this was summer, was particularly green and rich because the body, as it decays, makes great nutrients for plants and trees. But here's the thing. As we're walking through this field, we come upon a railroad track. And it looks to be abandoned because there's grass growing up between the rails and on the tracks. I see the head of a dog still got a little bit of flesh adhering to it. A pot, like ashes in it, something that was burned, a pestle that you use to grind up ashes. Oh, a cross, like a Christian cross that was just laying there. There were all these things. And for some reason I thought, this is protecting the area. It's a dog, had long canines, you know, and it looked like a vicious skull of a vicious dog. And all these other things, what did they mean? Was there some kind of sacrifice here? Was there some way to put a spell on the area that no one went in? It was scary. By what? Of course I went in anyway. I wish I had the photographs of that, you know, of course I turned them all in with my report. But I wish I had those photos today because it was an odd little altar set up. And the way that the dog's head was facing that, if you walked up this path, you would see the dog. Anyway, we did not find Irene Silverman. Obviously she's never been found. And my boss declared her dead after years of, you know. And they couldn't put murder charges on Sante and Kenneth Kimes because they didn't Have a body. Eventually, though, they came up with enough evidence to try them. And they were grifters who were charged on other things, too. So they wound up going to prison. I think Shantae died, and Kenneth is probably still alive.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

And the biggest punishment to them, they put them in separate prisons. They needed to be together. It was. What do they call that? A folie a deux. When two people come together and share a madness, and it grows between them.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

So all kinds of strange things in this world, isn't there?

[Podcast Host 2]

What did the psychic or the medium, what was her explanation? When you walk away and she goes, ah, it didn't work.

[Barbara Butcher]

She said, we're probably just not getting the appropriate. Not race. Use another term. The appropriate signals are not coming up. The energy. The energy forces. We're not near the pro. It was a huge field. We couldn't do the whole damn thing.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, it's a lot of energy.

[Barbara Butcher]

She knew what she was following her stick.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's like WI fi a little bit.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You get a better signal. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?

[Podcast Host 2]

Have you ever heard of this working like something like a medium or some type of assisted psychic or anything? Because you hear about these stories where, like, oh, this police department consults with this person, and they were able to use them. Da, da, da. Have you heard of it being used in other cases?

[Barbara Butcher]

I have. Not in New York City. But there have been cases where psychics, for some reason, did know something, you know, so maybe they knew it from a neighbor, Maybe they heard something that led them somewhere, but they had a certain fact or something that helped and turned out to be true. Like maybe they knew something that no one else knew but the police. So maybe they knew a cop who happened to spill it to them.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Barbara Butcher]

But whatever it is, for some reason, it seemed like the psychic did the deal, figure something out. I don't know how that works, but for the most part. And of course, then they're going to call her back in two years when they get into the similar case.

[Podcast Host 2]

Of course.

[Barbara Butcher]

So I'm psychic to the police. I'm a psychic consultant for the North Dakota town police and village. Perceptual, homicidal, whatever. Right. So I don't know. But, no, I've never heard anything where a psychic really, really knew something and led to the arrest of the perpetrator. Arrest and conviction. So I've never heard of that before.

[Podcast Host 2]

We move on. Any other cases that you saw that you thought the circumstances around this are just bizarre? They felt like they had some type of weird mystique to them.

[Barbara Butcher]

No. You know what? A lot of it is blocked.

[Podcast Host 2]

Really?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, it is. You know, I get a glimpse in my head of, like, a strange scene, and then it goes away.

[Podcast Host 2]

Because it scared you, specifically?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

What scared you about it?

[Barbara Butcher]

A force that I didn't understand or know that was there really any notion of this voodoo or this Santeria being powerful in some way? A curse? I mean, look, I'm an intelligent person. I don't believe in curses. Except when you tell people they're gonna die and they die. Cause they're psychologically attuned that way. So I don't know. But there are certain things I remember walking into strange cases, and then it goes, like, blank. And I know, for instance, it was a case that really, really bothered me. I won't go into it. It was really upsetting. And so with my psychiatrist, I was doing this exposure therapy for PTSD to, you know, get this case out of my head, make it stop haunting me. And so she asked me to describe it, describe it over and over and over again till it loses some of its power. And I described it in great detail. A couple months later, I'm looking through my paperwork, some old files and stuff, and I find that very case. I'm reading it and I go, wait a second. No, that's not how it was. They were not in the living room and the kitchen. No, no, they were over behind the curtains. Wait a minute. That's not possible. I see it in my head. I see it exactly as it was. I know because I was there. And now I look at my report, and I wrote something completely different that frightened the hell out of me. And I told my psychiatrist, I said, look, that whole case I just described to you, it didn't happen that way. And she says, all right, calm. I said, am I going crazy? Am I losing my mind? She said, no, calm down. Here's the point. When you went into that case, you were so horrified was it involved torture and stuff that you weren't there. You shut down so completely that your emotions, your mind, your heart, they weren't really there. So you did your work in some kind of detached fugue state, and you went away, and you had an image in your mind, and it stuck there. But that's not really how it was your version. My version was not as bad as the real version.

[Podcast Host 2]

Oh, really?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, it was worse than I thought. I remembered it as being horrifying, but it was actually, when I read the report, it was more high Farring than I remembered. So I can see why my mind changed it.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

But that scared the hell out of me. I thought, am I crazy? Can I believe what I see, what I hear?

[Podcast Host 2]

No. Your psyche attempted to protect yourself, it seems like, right?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, my psyche turned it off, protected myself, and then created a scenario. But to read my own report and say, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. In fact, I even called one of the detectives who had been on the case with me. I said, look, you're not gonna believe this, but do you remember such and such and such? He said, no, it was actually they were beaten over here. I'm like, oh, really? I said, I'm remembering it differently. He says, don't worry about it. You closed off, you put it. You filed it. You closed. Came out back through your brain in small parts.

[Podcast Host 2]

And your brain had some of the pieces, and then it created a new story to tie the pieces together.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, it did. That is so strange to make it less horrible for me.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

So that. But that scared the hell out of me. In fact, I went to see a neurologist. I told him what happened. I said, look, am I crazy? He said, no, just your psyche protected you.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Podcast Host 3]

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[Podcast Host 2]

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quick because I got to ask you a question.

[Podcast Host 3]

Are you the type of person that just wakes up in the morning and immediately like hits your vape or gets a coffee or throws in a pouch because you just want to feel anything at all like you just throughout the day, you're like, okay, coffee pouch. Coffee pouch, Vape, Coffee pouch. I mean, to be honest with you, that was me. Like, I was just going from cold brew to pouch to cold brew to pouch all day. And my heart felt like it was going to explode. Like, I was just like, felt strung out like all day. Truly, I was like, just kind of anxious and I didn't even know why. And I was trying to like, eat clean. I was lifting weights. Meanwhile, I was also chemically nuking my nervous system them. And that's why I started these ultra patches. I'll be honest with you, I found these on my own. And then I reached out to the company. I was like, hey, I would love to work with you guys because I love what you guys do. Ultra is amazing because it's nicotine free and caffeine free and it still gives you that focus and energy. It's really the best. Like, I'm like, okay, there's no nicotine or caffeine. I was like, well, what is it? Well, basically they partnered with neuroscientists to put together a blend of like, nootropics and adaptogens to actually help you focus and get energized and kind of, you know, help with that oral fixation. No ditty without like the jittery crash. So it's got like L theanine, infinity, PX alpha, GPC, vitamins, B6 and B12. And I'll be honest, they taste great, they make you feel great. And I don't know if it's just me or what, but, like, I truly feel like I'm more locked in when I'm taking them and there's no crash. And the craziest thing is that, you know, sometimes I'll still use nicotine. It just helps me cut back and I feel way better now. Caffeine and nicotine are going to wreck your resting heart rate. It's going to make you feel anxious if you're taking them all the time. And on top of that, it's going

[Podcast Host 2]

to destroy your sleep.

[Podcast Host 3]

So that was my biggest issues. I felt cracked out, I felt anxious and I wasn't sleeping that good. But ever since I've been taking Ultra, I'm still getting that same little kick. I'm getting that thing to do throughout the day and I just feel better in general. Ultra is absolutely amazing. And if you're interested in checking them out, I have great news. You're gonna go to takeultra.com that's t-a k e ultra.com and you're gonna use the promo code camp. And you're gonna get 15% off when you use that code. That's takeultra.com and use a code camp for 15% off. And when you check out, they're gonna ask where you heard. Just please tell them that we sent you over at Camp Cagna. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you guys so much. Feel better, sleep better. Get less anxious, but stay locked in. Now let's get back to the show.

[Podcast Host 2]

There's cases that are, I've read, not the exact same, but similar to this when people have. I forget what it's called. I think it's called a callosotomy. I think when there's basically a bifurcation.

[Barbara Butcher]

Corpus callosum.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yes, there's a bifurcation of the corpus callosum where you're right and your left brain hemispherically are basically separated. And as a result they have these weird phenomena where they don't always track exactly what they saw, but they create new stories in their mind based off of what their visual input is. So they don't create an extremely coherent story. But I don't exactly remember the details of this specific study. But they basically had these specific patients and they showed them either like a shovel or like a chicken foot or something like random symbols and they I forget exactly what it was. But depending on what they showed them, they couldn't exactly remember what the image was that they saw. Cristos. Would you actually mind trying to Google this? Google shovel chicken foot corpus callosum study. I think this is going to connect. Yeah, we gotta see though.

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[Barbara Butcher]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Podcast Host 2]

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[Barbara Butcher]

I mean I have heard about corpus callosum injury or post surgical division where they can now taste sounds.

[Podcast Host 2]

Oh, interesting.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. Or, or the colors have a certain sound to them and you know, LSD does that.

[Podcast Host 2]

Interesting.

[Barbara Butcher]

I, I, well, someone I know saw notes, musical notes coming out of a radio.

[Podcast Host 2]

Oh, that's what it is. So when asked, okay, so scroll to the very top here. So yeah, to the top of the section. So this is the classic split brain experiment where neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga demonstrated the specialized function. So basically, the patient was shown two different images simultaneously. A chicken foot and then a snowy winter scene. And the patient was asked to pick a corresponding picture from a set of cards using both hands. And then. Scroll down, Christos. Now, the left hand, controlled by the right brain, pointed to a shovel. The right hand, controlled by the left rein, pointed to a chicken. And then when asked why they chose, the left hemisphere basically had to make sense of the right hand's actions. So then they made up a story in their brain that said, you need a shovel to clean out the chicken shed.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And so because of the separation of the brain where they're not talking to each other, they're seeing these two images, and then when they're asked to pick them, they're picking them. And then their brain's creating a story to make sense of what they saw.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And I wonder, in your case, you're basically disassociating. Yeah. And you're pulling in these random images, and then your brain needs to make up a story to make sense of these images that are in your brain.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And that doesn't fully make sense because you're missing some of the pieces of it.

[Barbara Butcher]

Because I'm brain damaged. You're saying I'm crazy? Don't you dare. I'm damaged, but I'm not that kind of damage.

[Podcast Host 2]

Maybe it might be better if you were a little bit more damaged. Maybe then you forget more.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, I'd forget a hell of a lot more, but, you know, I'm working on it. That's fascinating, isn't it?

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. It's strange how our brains will tell us stories in order to protect ourselves.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. And, you know, that kind of detachment, it just occurred to me, it's very much like a lobotomy. When you destroy the frontal lobe, emotions disappear, of course.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Barbara Butcher]

And that's like really cutting off your emotions permanently. So I was able to lobotomize myself psychically.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Barbara Butcher]

You know, cut off my emotions. What a strange thing.

[Podcast Host 2]

Bizarre. I'm curious, in your experience, do men and women kill differently?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

How?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, men are more aggressive. It's guns. Even when you look at statistics, men kill themselves with guns, blow their heads off, sometimes stab themselves in the heart. Women being less angry, take sleeping pills. Now, the difference is, and I talk about this in the book, the Angry versus the Sad. Angry people, they're so depressed, they're in so much pain, and no one in the world is helping them. No one notices. No one asks them, hey, are you okay? So they jump off a building and they make a huge mess and a huge sound and scare people. Big blast. Hey, screw you all. This is what you did to me.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. You're gonna feel me now. I exist.

[Barbara Butcher]

You know how this was? Yeah. Now you know. Now you see me. You didn't see me before. And then there's the sad, you know, a broken heart. Take pills, sit in the tub and just fall asleep and die. Or carbon monoxide, Just sit in your car and go peacefully. They're sad. But I think women being less aggressive, less destructive than men, don't want to blow their brains out. You know, maybe they'll. Maybe not. That's not, you know, not many people much anymore. I don't see. I haven't seen that in a long time. Yeah, that's odd. I wonder why. Well, there's so many easier ways to do it now, including that stupid book that I hate. What's it called? It's an instruction manual for.

[Podcast Host 2]

Is this 13 reasons why?

[Barbara Butcher]

No, it's like last, I don't know. Christos, can you pick up a book manual?

[Podcast Host 2]

Was it like a fictional book?

[Barbara Butcher]

No, it was real. It was. It was a bestseller. It was how to commit without, you know, too much pain, without too much damage.

[Podcast Host 2]

A complete manual of no Final Exit.

[Barbara Butcher]

That's what it was. Final Exit. Yeah. White cover, I think.

[Podcast Host 2]

Strange. And it was a. It was a popular book?

[Barbara Butcher]

Oh, very. Yeah, third edition. Oh, a New York Times bestseller. Look at that. Look at that. Huh? Let me see the earlier editions.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

Building regulations. Now that's something weird.

[Podcast Host 2]

I might need the Final Exit after reading that one. Yeah, right.

[Barbara Butcher]

No, I remember seeing that book at several scenes and it pissed me off to no end. Because what it should have started with is an explanation of the nature of depression. The chemical nature, the incidental nature, like a horrible tragedy. The illness, you know, I'm dying in pain. I wanna. It should have explained those things and then talked about treatments. Now the following antidepressants can especially help with the short term tragedy. Okay, These ones are for long term use. And here's what you can call, or you can talk to your priest. Talk, but talk to someone you know. And here's. Here's the number hotline, right? And they didn't do that. They said, if you want to die, here are ways to do it that are less painful, more peaceful. You know, they told them how to take pills so they wouldn't vomit. I Think it was vodka and sleeping pills for a while. Was a big one. Wow. Yeah. So I don't like that book.

[Podcast Host 2]

Now, as far as external crimes and anger, when men are killing other people or when women are killing other people, is the modality that they use, is it different?

[Barbara Butcher]

You know, I think men shoot more. Of course, they strangle more. I don't know that I've ever heard of a case where a woman strangled another woman. It's hard to strangle a man for most women, but, yeah, strangulation is so personal and so aggressive, almost sexual. Look at me. I'm going to kill you.

[Podcast Host 2]

Women.

[Barbara Butcher]

All right, let's see. Who are the big women killers? Eileen Wuornos, you know, she shot them.

[Podcast Host 2]

Have you dealt with any scenes of women killers?

[Barbara Butcher]

Oh, yeah. There was a woman who killed her daughter's rapist.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. That was a very long time ago. Yeah, I applauded her.

[Podcast Host 2]

What happened to her?

[Barbara Butcher]

She was in jail. I don't know what eventually happened to her as far as charges, but I'm sure there was some. The rapist got off, and that's what really threw her into the next.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow.

[Barbara Butcher]

Crazy.

[Podcast Host 2]

I spoke with a guy, Clark Frederickson. That was his name, I believe he was from New Jersey, and he was, as a boy, by a guy in his town. He was the sheriff of the town that was boys, and he was one of them. And then years later, when he's like 40. Yeah, here it is. Clark Fredericks. I'm sorry, Clark. Clark Fredericks. He runs into him just at like a store, and he's there and he sees the guy that him as a kid, that sent his whole life off track. He got into spirals of addiction and self hatred and this long, tumultuous life, much of which was caused by this man. And he's there now, a much older man with a young boy, the same age that Clark was when this thing happened to him. And Clark went over to his house and he killed him.

[Barbara Butcher]

Good. I mean, come on. Good. Good for you, Clark.

[Podcast Host 2]

And then Clark went to prison and he got the minimum. I think it was like five years. And I believe he told me. And this might be. I might be getting some of the timeline and details of this wrong. So I apologize if I am. But he said that when he gave his testimony, when he was getting sentenced, because I think he pled guilty. And he said, yeah, I did this, yada yada. And I don't even think it went to a trial, because I think he just pled.

[Barbara Butcher]

Sure.

[Podcast Host 2]

But when he gave his testimony to sentencing. They stood up and applauded him, all the people in the courtroom. And I think the judge himself said, it pains me to have to do this to you because the system failed you for so many years that you had to do something rash and put your own life on the line to get justice for what happened to you and for so many other people. So it pains me to send you to prison for even a day. But according to the state law, I have to sentence you to a minimum of five years. And I think he ended up doing like three, three and a half or something like that. And now he works for reform for these types of crimes.

[Barbara Butcher]

I applaud him.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Barbara Butcher]

How many young boys did he destroy? How many lives?

[Podcast Host 2]

Well, he told me that there were other boys in his town that killed themselves, got addicted to drugs and ended up dying. And it came out later that they were victims of the same guy. So had the system came in sooner and dealt with this, this monster, how many lives would have been saved?

[Barbara Butcher]

Rough justice, right? Look, I don't believe in killing anyone. I don't even kill bugs. I let them out. I put them out the window.

[Podcast Host 2]

Of course, individual atheism should be discouraged.

[Barbara Butcher]

Right. Sometimes you really. You get it. You understand it.

[Podcast Host 2]

If the system is failing these people that are the most vulnerable in our society, what other choice is there?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah, right.

[Podcast Host 3]

Like what.

[Podcast Host 2]

What is recourse for this? Because, okay, he could sue them. The statute of limitations. This happened 30 years ago.

[Barbara Butcher]

Right.

[Podcast Host 2]

Okay. Well, you can try to get enough evidence. There's probably none. It's all been destroyed.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yep.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what you do in that case.

[Barbara Butcher]

Damn. I'm getting depressed.

[Podcast Host 2]

The last thing I want to ask you before we leave. What high profile deaths have you dealt with? And what can you share with me

[Barbara Butcher]

like famous, famous people?

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Barbara Butcher]

Hmm. I don't think I've had any. Well, yeah. Jonathan Levin. His daddy was Gerald Levin, the president of Time Warner. Hugely powerful man. And his son Jonathan was known for being the most amazing teacher that I have ever heard of. He came from a wildly wealthy family. He could have been anything he wanted. Instead, he became a schoolteacher and went and taught in the poorest schools in the Bronx.

[Podcast Host 2]

Wow. Good for him.

[Barbara Butcher]

And he encouraged these kids. He worked with them. He gave them his personal time. Any student had his phone, they could call him. Anytime they were in trouble, they could come over and talk to him. He was a wonderful, wonderful man. A teacher who was celebrated everywhere. And then two of his students it was Corey Arthur and Montoon Hart. They called Jonathan, said, oh, look, I need to talk to you right away. They went over to his house, and then they tortured him to get his PIN code, his bank code for the, you know, that little cash. What's the hell in the name?

[Podcast Host 2]

Atm.

[Barbara Butcher]

Atm. Thank you. His ATM code. They tortured him with a steak knife. They stabbed him. They cut him slowly. It's horrific. And then, you know, eventually they just killed him. And I did the case. And it was heartbreaking. This guy lived, and he lived like a typical bachelor. Just a messy little house and messy little apartment. He had a nice girlfriend. He had a lot of friends. He was loved in the community in the Bronx. And these kids just like, you know, they gave him the. He gave him. Of course he gave him his ATM code. They went and took, I think, $800 out of his. Whatever the limit was, out of his account. I think that's nearly what he had. You know, probably had 900. They took 800, and then they went back and killed him. You know, so that was so famous, that was all over the country, because not just who his father was, this incredibly powerful man, but because of who he was, that he was a really good man. And when I think about him, it's with sorrow, but also it's almost celebrating the fact that despite his horrible death and all the things he went through, he helped so many kids. I mean, his funeral was crowded with students from all over the Bronx. Thousands.

[Podcast Host 2]

Did you go?

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. No, I didn't go to the funeral.

[Podcast Host 2]

Have you gone to funerals of cases that you've investigated?

[Barbara Butcher]

No, no. I would feel intrusive on the family's grief. And don't forget, I'm a poor reminder of what happened. This one lady, she used to visit her son. She came up from Virginia, and her son was a gay guy. And they'd go out for nice dinners, go to the theater and, you know, just gossip and drink good wine. Have a wonderful weekend together. Very close. And then he got tested for hiv, and he was terrified of what the result might be. He called his mom. She came up. You know, they went to Docks for seafood. They had a really good weekend. And they were sitting on his bed laughing and drinking wine. He said, I gotta go to the bathroom. And then she waited and waited, and like, 10 minutes passed and she didn't see him. Went out into the living room. She sees the window wide open, and there's a note on the stereo speaker that says, don't tell anybody about this. My diagnosis, or. And it was a nasty note. It was nasty to this woman he was so close with. I come in and I'm talking to her and she's looking at me like her eyes are in such dilated shock. And I said, did your son have any diseases like depression or anxiety? And she said, diseases? What diseases? I don't know. And I said, was there anything terrible that happened? I don't know. I don't know. Then she turns around, she turns to the wall and starts smashing her head against the wall as hard as she can. And I grab her by the shoulders, I turn around, I said, what are you doing? She said, you're a nightmare. I'm trying to wake up. You are a nightmare. And I just held her for a while until she calmed herself. But I told her, I gave her my card. I said, look, if you have any trouble, the funeral homes, you need help, just call me. And I was glad she didn't. I wouldn't go to the funeral. I wouldn't do anything because I was a nightmare. Yeah, I don't want to be a nightmare.

[Podcast Host 2]

I can get it. I understand their perspective. Yeah, it's sad.

[Barbara Butcher]

So if I show up at a funeral, I might be somebody's nightmare.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. I mean, it requires a lot of self perspective. I'm sure there's moments in funerals you probably wanted to attend. I can imagine there's people that you connected through, even posthumously or their families.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. Even the child. Especially the child deaths. Child murders.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. I couldn't imagine. But now.

[Barbara Butcher]

But on the other hand, you know, I'd walk through the projects with my bag and my little jacket and guys would be sitting outside on the bench and they'd say, hey, you here for me? I'm like, nope, Another day you don't have to work with me. And they say, grim Reaper. They said, I know. I don't want to wake up one morning and see you hovering over me. No, I get it. It.

[Podcast Host 2]

You know, on that topic, are there any. And this is going to sound morbid, so it's all morbid. This in particular. Are there any funny things you've ever uncovered? Any scenes you've walked into? And you go, that is a little ironic. It's a little silly. It's a little.

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[Barbara Butcher]

You know, there are things that sometimes make me laugh just because they're ironic. But it's a dark laughter. It's a laughter of pain. I do remember the one out on Riverside Park. There was a torso and a separated head from it. And a medical examiner in training went to the case with the investigator and as he was taping it off, police were moving around and suddenly the head started rolling down this little hill. And this medical examiner, she's a nice young woman, she's jumping up and down going, the head, the head, the head. But here's the kicker. They call the morgue wagon after they're done with the investigation and they pick up the body and they bring it back and it's like, where's the head? They said, well, you told us to pick up the body. We didn't see any head. No, go get the head.

[Podcast Host 2]

Chris says, don't laugh.

[Podcast Host 3]

This is serious.

[Podcast Host 2]

Dude, I know what's wrong with you,

[Barbara Butcher]

but this is morbid. Yeah, this is morbid.

[Podcast Host 2]

Can't be laughing about this stuff.

[Barbara Butcher]

But if I don't laugh, I will die of sadness and despair.

[Podcast Host 2]

So, yeah, you need a release valve.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. And it's dark humor.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, you talk to military guys, they'll tell you the same thing.

[Barbara Butcher]

Oh, sure, yeah. The darkest jokes.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. Cops, firefighters, people on the front lines seeing the worst of society. I typically have a pretty morbid sense of humor.

[Barbara Butcher]

You know, I remember going through a big black trash bag on the side of the. Because it was a body chopped up in it. And I'm, you know, opening it up and I'm starting to pull things out, and cops are all around me looking, and I said, hey, give me a hand, would you? Oh, never mind. I found one. My God, is that morbid? Is that insensitive? Is that horrible?

[Podcast Host 3]

It's terrible.

[Podcast Host 2]

And Christos thinks it's funny. For some reason, he's sitting over here laughing at this awful thing.

[Barbara Butcher]

But it was too much of a good joke because I was so freaked out at looking at a chopped up body.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's a true comic. That is the words of a true comic. You don't want to make the joke.

[Barbara Butcher]

Yeah. You don't want to. It's just too perfect.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's just too perfect. It's like, what other opportunity are you going to have to say it?

[Barbara Butcher]

I needed to stop being freaked out for a minute, so I made a joke.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. And now you understand where comedians come from.

[Barbara Butcher]

I know.

[Podcast Host 2]

From the dark depths of despair.

[Podcast Host 1]

And that concludes our conversation with Barbara Butcher.

[Podcast Host 2]

Isn't she just fantastic?

[Podcast Host 3]

I truly love listening to her stories

[Podcast Host 2]

and hearing her perspective on death and

[Podcast Host 1]

more importantly, her thoughts on life.

[Podcast Host 3]

Now I have good news.

[Podcast Host 2]

If you didn't know, I did another episode with Barbara.

[Podcast Host 1]

If you haven't seen it, you can

[Podcast Host 2]

click it right here. Thank you guys so much for being

[Podcast Host 1]

a part of what we're building here at the campsite. You're welcome anytime, and I'll see you next time.

[Podcast Host 2]

Peace.