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Mark Gagnon
In 1973, a man by the name of Ingo Swann was asked by Stanford researchers to psychically look at Jupiter and tell them what he saw. He claims that Jupiter had a small ring, almost like Saturn going around the planet. And this wouldn't be verified until six years later when Voyager 1 accurately imaged the planet for the first time. And they found that very ring. And then he was asked by the CIA to remote view the dark side of the moon. He expected craters, silence, lifeless terrain. But what he saw was far from that. He described towers and roads and lights and even humanoid beings that weren't just standing around, they were working and building and watching. And the wildest part, the CIA didn't call him crazy. They asked him for more. This is the story of psychic spies, hidden missions, and the man who may have seen a version of Moon the no one was supposed to see. This is a fascinating story of the man who tested his psychic abilities against the most well funded research institutions and intelligence agencies in the entire world. And what he found was truly fascinating. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the story of Ingo Swann. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. At blinds.com, it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. Because@blinds.com, the only thing we treat better than Windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off site wide, plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. What's up, people? And welcome back to camp. My name is Mark Gagnon and thank you for joining me in my tent, where every single week I explore the most interesting, fascinating, controversial and strange stories from around the world. From all times, from all ages, from different dimensions, to this one that we're in right now. And as always, I'm joined by my dear friend, the Greek freak himself. Christos, how are you? All right, Christos, enough, okay? Enough of this, Gavin. All this jibber jabber, all right? We don't have time to just be chatting, you know, we got people in the comments being like, yo, Christos never stops talking, derails every episode. I agree, guys, we don't have time to goof off because today we're talking about one of my favorite topics in the world, which is basically the intersection between military spycraft, intelligence gathering, and the supernatural. I mean, this is fascinating. And again, I'm not someone that's over here, like, dude, psychics are real. But I'm always open to the idea, especially if there's someone that went through some type of, you know, institutional training. Maybe they had some type of scientific scrutiny, maybe researchers were taking a look at them. And that is exactly the case with our hero today, Ingo Swan. Now we're going to go through Ingo's whole story from, you know, where he's born, how he grew up, and basically all the claims that he makes throughout his book and his interviews, you know, throughout his life, and how that's corroborated with, you know, actual research and intelligence that's been put out by the US Government, the things that overlap. And we'll even go through some of the claims debunking Ingo. But let's begin. So if someone were to come up to you and be like, hey, you know, I'm psychic, you'd probably be like, all right, sure, okay. You're probably delusional. You're, like, trying to run, like, a scam or something. You're trying to get money, right? So that's what makes Ingo pretty interesting, because your first instinct is probably to be like, yeah, he's probably just another charlatan, just like all these other, you know, fortune tellers or whatever. But what makes him interesting, the thing that I'm drawn to his story for is it's a little different. He doesn't necessarily just go for money. He's not out here just being like, yo, just. I'll tell you about your future. I'll tell you what. He. In fact, he's really concerned about his reputation, and he actively avoids making claims that he can't back up. He's not just going to be like, oh, 500 years in the future, this will happen. No, he's trying to only make claims about things that can actually be verified scientifically. So instead of setting up shop with, like, a crystal ball, and he instead goes to universities and volunteers to be tested by scientists. Let's think about that, right? This guy's basically saying, like, hey, I think I have these abilities, and, you know, I want you to help me prove myself. Right? So Ingo Swann is born 1930s in a small town in Colorado and eventually grows up in an even smaller town still in Colorado. And from a young age, exhibits some of these sort of, you know, esp, extrasensory perception abilities. He's having these precognitive dreams. He's having sort of, like, these really intense, like, visions. And if anyone doesn't know, precognitive dream is basically a dream that you have where when you wake up, you're able to tell some future event. And many people have, you know, talked about this and documented this throughout time, where they basically say, like, you know, I went to sleep and I saw a dream that a plane landed in the Hudson River. And then they will write it to their therapist and be like, hey, I had this weird dream. What do you think it means? And then two days later, you know, Sully Sullenberger, Lance is playing in the Hudson River. Stuff like that, where it's like, oh, that's strange. You know, what is the meaning of that? Maybe they're referencing a different memory that then just coincides with this new memory. Who knows? All I can say is that it's a thing that has happened to people, and it's tough to verify because you can't always actually test it, because you can't just go to sleep and be like, oh, I'm gonna dream. I'm gonna have this dream. But it happens to some people. They document it. People look into it. That's all I can say. And Ingo is one of those kids. He's having these kinds of experiences, and. And his family, despite growing up in, like, a small town of Colorado, doesn't dismiss him. You know, they don't just write him off as, like, oh, this is a crazy kid. Instead, they kind of nurture it. They kind of let him, you know, get into this as, like, a hobby, because, matter of fact, his grandmother also claimed to have some type of psychic or clairvoyant abilities. And so the family is very open to these kinds of ideas. So for the better part of his childhood, he has a pretty normal life. You know, he goes to University of Colorado, studies biology. He graduates, and he's kind of drawn to the sciences, but always while he's doing science, he's more drawn to the mystical. He eventually, you know, enrolls and enlists, rather, in the US Military, you know, works in the military for a couple years and then leaves the military and goes and works as an artist in New York City. And while he's working as an artist, you know, he's actually an illustrator for the UN At a certain point. And he's, you know, working as a legit artist, but then also doing, like, his art on the side and showing it at exhibitions and stuff like that. And while he's in this art community, the Art community at the time, throughout, like, you know, the 60s is very deep and, you know, counterculturalism and psychedelics and, you know, mysticism and all the things of, you know, extrasensory type of, you know, supernatural and paranormal studies. So by the 1970s, you know, he's late into his 30s, and he's been practicing a lot of his own personal remote viewing and clairvoyant work. He ends up participating in experiments at the American Society of Psychical Research. Now, this isn't just like a fringe group meeting in someone's basement. This is like a legit organization that's been around since, like, the late 1800s, that's founded by legit academics that basically want to study paranormal phenomena using actual scientific methods, which is what you should do with science, right? You have this, you know, scientific standard of testing. And if someone says they have this crazy ability, be like, all right, let's just test it out. So they set up for Swan's test, and they're pretty straightforward, right? They have him sit in a chair, and they try to project his consciousness into these sealed boxes that contain various symbols or objects. Now, this is a test that is basically going to try to see if he's able to do what is known as remote viewing. Now, if you don't know, remote viewing is basically, you can think of, like, stranger things. This kind of popularized the idea of remote viewing, that basically someone, through sensory deprivation, covering their eyes, covering their ears, or are able to send their consciousness or their. Their mind's eye into a different place, maybe in another room or maybe into a box or maybe, you know, across the world to a different country, or even outside of our planet, somewhere else in the universe. It's a pretty strange idea, you know, and different people have different theories as to why the US Government and different research labs were interested in this, right? You can imagine if a military or an intelligence agency actually had the ability to pay someone money and they could use their consciousness to spy on another country, see what they were building, see what weapons they had, see what type of, you know, nuclear processing they were building that would give them a massive competitive advantage. You got to remember, this is right in the middle of Cold War times. So some people will chalk it up and just be like, oh, yeah, this was the US Government, and they're just, you know, throwing a couple bucks at a guy to see if he can do something. And if he can, then the result is, you know, phenomenal. And if you can't, you know, it was only a few thousand dollars. We keep on Moving. So this is basically the theory. And they take Ingo and they give him a test. They show him these different boxes with different symbols or objects inside. And the idea was to see if he could describe what was inside without, you know, any type of normal way of knowing. It's basically just like, you know, a guessing game, but you never get to see what's inside. So this is where things get interesting. During one of the experiments, the researchers present Swan with a box. And they ask him to tell him what is inside. And he concentrates for a while and then just looks up and says nothing. Just darkness. And the research is kind of like, all right, failed, but, you know, whatever, we'll try something new. But Swan stops him. He says, no, no, I don't see darkness because it's just darkness. Just the light bulb inside the box is burnt out. And the researcher's probably like, all right, that's kind of weird. So he goes over the box and he opens it up, and sure enough, the light bulb inside of the box is completely burnt out. And that moment really changed a lot for Ango Swan. And it wasn't just that he had demonstrated some type of, like, unusual perception. It's how he did it. He didn't make some type of, like, vague general statement that could be interpreted like, oh, I'm in a room of nothingness. It's like, no, no, there's a light bulb that's off and I can't see the thing. And he gave a specific testable explanation. And the researchers looked at it and they were like, yeah, you, you nailed it. And that made all the scientists really kind of take notice. So Swan's approach to these experiments was honest. When he got something wrong, he admitted it. And when he wasn't sure about something, he said, yeah, I can't, I don't know. And he didn't try to spin his misses into hits or make everything sound significant. And he was just very upfront with like, hey, sometimes I can see stuff, sometimes I can't. I don't know why. And he treated these sessions like they were supposed to be scientific tests with clear right and wrong. And word about Swan's unusual accuracy started to spread through the community and scientists began to kind of notice. But before the government recruited him, Ingo had to basically prove that his abilities were a little bit more legit. And that burnt out light bulb was just the beginning. Because once word got out that there might be someone who could actually do some type of remote viewing or paranormal, unexplainable phenomena, you Know, people have been talking about this for centuries, and now there's a guy that's claiming to do it under scientific scrutiny. And this is where things get interesting. He gets in touch with the Stanford Research Institute. Yes, that Stanford, the, you know, prestigious university, one of the most, you know, famous and renowned colleges or universities in the entire world. And the research institute is heavily funded and well staffed, and they call it sri. So SRI wasn't just a regular, you know, research facility. That is the same organization that had been quietly conducting remote viewing experiments for the government for years. And this eventually plays a role in Project Stargate that we'll talk about a little later. But when they heard about Swan's ability to tell what was inside of those boxes, the researchers at SRI started wondering about, you know, things a little bit more ambitious. If this guy could look inside a box, across a room and accurately describe what's inside. What if they pointed him towards something a little more challenging, like another planet? Now, I know what you're thinking. This sounds insane, but remember, these aren't crazy researchers working in a garage. This is one of the most legit, serious, well funded research labs in the world. And they had already been, you know, seeing some unusual results with different remote viewers and seeing what remote viewing can do. So they said, all right, let's just give it a shot. What's up, guys? 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The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank in a pursuant to license by MasterCard International Incorporated. Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35gb of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com so in 1973, they approached Swan with a proposal that must have sounded like something insane. They wanted him to remote view the planet Jupiter. And what's interesting is that Ingo Swann said no. And his reasoning was actually pretty smart. He had been, you know, careful throughout his experiments to only remote view targets that could be verified, right? Like, hey, look inside this box. What do you see? A red X? Yes. You know, you can actually track it. So, you know, and so him, he's like, what's the value of describing something that there's no way to check whether they're right or wrong? And at that point in the 70s, there had been no direct, clear imaging of Jupiter. I mean, obviously you could see things through a telescope, but, you know, they had never actually sent a probe there or sent any type of, like, nearby, you know, satellite to actually take images. And Swan knew that plenty of people claimed that, you know, they had psychic abilities. And most of them were probably diluted or fraudulent. So Swan asked the researchers, how are they going to confirm what he's seeing? Like, what's the point of doing this? And they told Swan that Jupiter wasn't chosen randomly, that NASA had Pioneer probes already on their way to the planet. Pioneer 10 had launched the previous year and was scheduled to reach Jupiter in late 1973. Pioneer 11 would follow in 1974. So whatever Swann observed could eventually be compared to actual data from spacecraft that would eventually be sending back detailed information about Jupiter. So Swan hears this and he's like, all right, let's give it a shot, right? This is what he had always insisted on, a way to verify his observations. So he agreed. And on the day of the test, Swann settled into his chair and began describing what he saw as he, according to his own book, projected his consciousness towards Jupiter. And what he described, according to some, was remarkably detailed for someone that had, you know, never studied, you know, aerospace or, you know, astrophysics or anything like that. And the way he talked about Jupiter was, you know, he talked about a hydrogen mantle surrounding the planets and these massive rotating storms that look like cyclones. And he talked about the color of the clouds, and he even talked about ice crystals that were present in the atmosphere. And it sounds pretty crazy, but when the Pioneer probes finally reached Jupiter, they started sending back data. Pretty much everything Swan had described was confirmed. The hydrogen atmosphere, the rotating storms, the colors, the ice crystals, everything that he had described was all there, just as he said. And skeptics within the research lab, like any good scientist would be, of course they had their explanations. They pointed out that some of these features could be observed or even deduced from Earth based telescopes. You know, like Jupiter storms, for example, were visible to people with a decent telescope. And even if you knew enough about, you know, planetary science, you might reasonably assume that a gas giant like Jupiter would have things like hydrogen in its atmosphere or ice crystals floating around. These are things that scientists at the time had already deduced about Jupiter. So the skeptics have a good point. A lot of what Swan described Could have been chalked up to educated guessing by someone who knew something about astronomy or maybe read a couple books about, you know, Jupiter, and that might have been the end of it, except for one thing. Swan described something that no one had ever seen or really noted about Jupiter before, Something that couldn't have been seen from Earth, and something that even the most educated guests wouldn't have included. He said that Jupiter had rings, and he even notes it in his book from his time viewing Jupiter. And he says, these are not just any rings. They're specific rings. According to Swann, that Jupiter had a ring system similar to Saturn's, but much smaller and a lot closer to the planet. And he described it as being made up of dust and these tiny asteroids, and it formed like this band around Jupiter that would almost be impossible to see from Earth. And when Swan made the claim everyone thought that he had finally over. He went too far. Like, he's now just making up stuff. And Saturn's rings were obvious. They've been known since the 1600s. But Jupiter, on the other hand, no one had ever seen rings around Jupiter. And the pioneer probes that were reaching the planet Weren't even specifically looking for rings, because no one thought that there were any. And sure enough, when Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 reached Jupiter in 1973 and 1974, they didn't detect any rings. So there you have it. Ingo was wrong. You know, he made a point. He was like, look, there's all this stuff, the clouds, they were kind of vague, but there's a ring. And these probes, they go and they say there's no ring. But the story doesn't end there, because in 1979, six years after Swann's remote viewing session, Voyager 1 reached Jupiter with more advanced instrumentation and a different flight path than the pioneer missions. And as Voyager 1 was looking back at Jupiter with the sun behind the planet, it made the perfect light conditions. And the spacecraft's cameras captured something that no one had expected. There was exactly as Swann had described, A faint ring system around Jupiter, not as big as Saturn's, but definitely there, Made up of dust and small particles Located very close to the planet and virtually invisible from Earth. The scientific community was rightfully stunned. I mean, here was a discovery that fundamentally changed Our understanding Of planetary ring systems. And it had been predicted by a guy sitting in a chair in California six years before, using nothing, but according to him, psychic abilities. So either Swan had made the luckiest guess in the world about something that no scientist thought was possible or even expected to find, or he had somehow perceived details about Jupiter that wouldn't be confirmed by conventional scientists for another six years. And this Jupiter experiment was so successful that it caught the attention of people a lot more powerful than university research staff. People who started wondering what else Swan might be able to see if they gave him the right targets and the right resources. And these people had specific questions that they wanted answers. Questions about places that were much closer to home than Jupiter, but potentially much more sensitive than anything Swann had seen before. So by the mid-70s, the United States is in the middle of the Cold War, right? They're looking for any type of edge they can get on the Soviet Union. And the government had already been quietly funding remote viewing research for years. But most of their test subjects had had very little success, if any. And then comes this guy who not only is getting frequent and consistent tests and controlled laboratory settings, but it had already just accurately described features of Jupiter. And suddenly Ingo wasn't just an interesting research subject, he's potentially an intelligence asset. So the recruitment process begins in 1975 and it plays out like something out of a movie. I mean, this is crazy. And again, this comes from Ingo Swann's own, you know, story in his own book. And some of the details haven't necessarily been verified from, you know, external sources, but we'll clear that up later. But as far as the details of this go, this is how Swan describes it. He was at home when his phone rings at 3 in the morning. And a 3am phone call is never good news. But the voice on the other end wasn't calling him about a family emergency. Instead, the caller is brief and to the point. Swan was instructed to travel to Washington D.C. and at noon exactly 12 o', clock, he was supposed to stand in front of the elephant display in the central rotunda of the Museum of Natural History. That was it. No explanation, no ID of who was calling, no discussion of why he should go. Just specific instructions delivered in a tone that suggested that it was not really requests, that it was more of an order. And most people would have hung up and just been like, all right, this is like a prank or something. But remember, Swan had been working with government funded research institutions, so the idea that an official agency might want to contact him wasn't completely out of the blue. But still, the nature of the whole thing must have made him wonder what. You know, what he's even getting into. It's pretty crazy. So Swan goes to Washington, D.C. and stood next to the elephant at noon, and right on schedule, a dude dressed in, like, almost like, military outfit with, like, a clean cut just kind of walked up to him, and he didn't introduce himself or make small talk. Instead, he hands him, like, a card and just kind of walks away. And the card just has a brief message. It says, don't speak. Don't ask questions. This is for our safety as well as yours. Please follow me. Now, if I'm in that situation, probably just walk away. You're like, dude, this is insane. You're just gonna. I'm just gonna follow you. Like, no. No one showed him a badge. It just is a card from a dude. He got a call at 3am and now he's following a guy out of the history museum. But, you know, curiosity gets the better of him, and he follows the guy into a waiting car. And inside the car, there's another sort of military style, like, you know, intelligence asset type guy. And Swan would later refer to these two guys in his book as the twins because, according to him, they looked remarkably similar. The second man hands Swan another card. It says, do not speak. We need to search you for listening devices. And they actually searched him right there in the car, checking for recording equipment or surveillance or anything. And this isn't just paranoia, right? Like, you got to put yourself in this situation. During the Cold War, both sides are constantly trying to penetrate each other's intelligence operations. And the idea that Swan could be like a Soviet plant or that he might be under surveillance by a foreign intelligence was of genuine concern. So after they finished their search, Swan receives a third card. And it says, we would like your help on a project suited to your talent. Are you comfortable in a helicopter? Swan nods his head. Then one of the men took the cards back from him, and a bag is placed over his head, you know, and he gets in the car, and they immediately speed away. Which is kind of funny, right? There's a guy that can potentially see the rings of Jupiter when no scientist has ever seen him. And they're like, yeah, we'll put a bag on your head. You're probably good. There's no way you're going to see it through this brown paper bag, right? This is. That's crazy. So he says, sure. Gets the bag on his head, gets in the car, and he can't see where they're going, but he can feel the car kind of just deliberately making left turns, like, just seems like it's just going in circles. And this is likely to disorient him or make it impossible to, like, retrace the route. And eventually the car stops. And as the car stops, he hears a helicopter starting up nearby. So, still with the bag over his head, Swan was helped out of the car into the helicopter and flown to a location somewhere in or, like, near Washington, D.C. and when they land, he was led into a building, up into an elevator. Then the bag is finally taken off his head, and standing in front of him is, like, this older dude who walks up to him says, hey, I'm Mr. Axelrod. That's the name that Ingo says that he gave him Axelrod all time. Sick name. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break really quick because you need to rebrand your crotch. That's right. You need a full rebrand on your dong. And you're gonna do it with Bluechew. Because Bluechew, their tablets aren't just for better sex. No, they are. Like, if Tony Robbins give a motivational speech rate to your rates your wiener, you know, I mean, you're gonna feel amazing. Look, I just took one of Bluechew's tablets today, and suddenly, I mean, look at me. I'm glowing. This table, absolutely getting crushed underneath it, right? My penis is given a press conference. Okay, Feeling great. Never been better. So whether you're trying to make, you know, a memorable moment with your. Your sweet love, or you're just trying to give, you know, a friend of yours or a girl, you know, like a, you know, some crazy group chat fodder, something for the girls to gossip about. Bluechew is absolutely the chewable tablet delivery service that you need to bring the. The thunder. And the best part is that we got a special deal for the listeners of this lovely program. Get your first month for free@bluechew.com. just use the promo code Gagnon at checkout. All you gotta do is pay five bucks for shipping. That's like a cup of coffee. All right, five bucks for shipping. You're gonna get free bluechew straight to your door. So upgrade your legacy, let your name ring out for eons, and let's get back to the show. What's up, people? Quick announcement. If you are a fan of Camp Gagnon or Religion Camp, I have great news, because we are dropping History Camp. That's right. This is the channel. We're going to be exploring the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from all time. Throughout all history. Right. You probably know about Benjamin Franklin. I don't know, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla, interesting figures from history, and you probably learned about them in school, and they were pretty boring, but not here. Now, as you know, I was raised by a conspiracy theorist, so I'm going to be diving deep into all of the interesting, strange, occult, and secretive societal relationships that all of these famous, influential men from outside our shared past have. So if you're interested, please go ahead and subscribe to the YouTube channel. It will be pinned in the description as well as the comments. And if you're on Spotify, this doesn't really apply to you, but these episodes will be dropping as well. Just go ahead and give us a high rating because it really helps the show. The McDonald's snack wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet first. Snack snack rap is back. So Axelrod, immediately he sees, you know, Swan is pretty nervous, and he's like, yeah, chill. Let's just talk, have a cigar. And this is pretty interesting detail of how thoroughly they researched, you know, Ingo Swan. The cigar that he offers him is the exact brand that Ingo Swan likes. These people knew what he smoked before they even met him. So once they're kind of settling in, Axelrod basically makes his proposal. He represented a group that wanted Swan to participate in remote viewing projects. And the work would be like a thousand dollars in cash every day, which is basically like six grand in today's money. So every single day that he's in there, he's getting six grand. Bang. No strings attached. Here you go. Nice to see you. And it was an offer that is pretty difficult to refuse, especially for someone that had been working mostly with, like, university research budgets and then, like, as an artist and, you know, he's making a decent living. But six grand a day is crazy. But of course, there's a few strings attached. You know, there's always a catch when the government tries to offer you a bunch of money. First, Swan couldn't tell anyone about the work that he was doing, not just for, like, a couple months or a year. He would have to wait 10 years before even telling a single other soul about what he was working on. Complete secrecy, but everything that he would see and do. Second, for the duration of the project, Swan would have to remain at the facility. He'd be provided with accommodations and meals and the gym and recreation, basically everything else that he wanted, but he can't leave. And he'd be under constant monitoring by the government, ostensibly for his own protection, but also to ensure that he wasn't going to leak information about what he was doing. And remember, Swan still has no idea what they want him to see. Right? Like, he had been, like, viewing Jupiter for university researchers, but they hadn't required, like, you know, like, hiding him and putting a bag on his head and flying him around to these secret facilities for the government. I mean, this is like a different level. And Axelrod seemed to sense what Swan was thinking, but he wasn't offering any details about the actual work. But the message was clear, right? Agree the terms first, then we'll tell you what we want you to do. So after a long pause, Swan basically says, sure, let's do it. And Axelrod basically puts out a cigar, shakes his hand, says, great, get some rest. Tomorrow we begin. So that's how he gets recruited. And that is basically his first day working within the US Government. So at this point, Ingo Swann goes to sleep, and he has no idea what he's going to be looking at. I'm assuming that he's probably thinking, like, oh, you know, this is Cold War time. They want me to go look at, like, a Soviet nuclear facility, or, you know, they want me to spy on, you know, Vietnam. They want me to do something, okay, they want me to do something relating to the military. But according to Ingo Swann, that is not what they had him do. They wanted him to look at the dark side of the moon. So he wakes up, Axelrod tells him that his target would be the moon. And Swan was, you know, completely confused. He's like, what? And Axelrod made it clear from the beginning, hey, you're not asking questions. We're just giving you coordinates and you gotta go look at it. So Swan's job was to observe and report, not to understand what they were doing or why. So Swan was given a list of specific coordinates on the moon and told to go through them systematically, one by one. And they're not random locations, either. Someone had carefully selected these coordinates for some specific reason. But Swan wasn't told what those reasons might be. So he settles into his chair, begins his process of projecting his consciousness towards the first set of coordinates. And Swan expected to see what, you know, you would see in, you know, the Apollo astronaut footage or something like that. Right? Like a barren, airless world covered in craters and dust and rocks. And the first few locations kind of matched his expectations perfectly, Right? He described everything from, you know, crater floors to fields of boulders, and pretty much just standard stuff that, you know, an astronomer would tell you or, you know, if you'd seen, you know, the moon landing footage, you'd be like, yeah, that's basically what I saw. But as Swan moved through more coordinates, he started to notice things that didn't really make sense. So, for instance, he began describing what looked like tracks on the surface of the Moon, and not the kind of tracks left by, like, the lunar rovers, which were pretty small and limited to specific areas. He sees, like, extensive track patterns that suggest heavy machinery had been operating across large sections of the lunar surface. He also reported seeing patterns on the surface that looked like they had been created by, like, wind. But everyone, you know, knows that the Moon has no atmosphere, there's no wind, which would mean there's no wind patterns or erosion. So, you know, according to Swann, he says that that's what he saw, and at this point, it's not really making sense to him. In fact, as he continued his survey of the coordinates, Swann began to get this distinct impression that there was some type of atmosphere in the areas that he was viewing. Not like a thick atmosphere like Earth's, but, like, definitely something more than just the perfect vacuum that scientists, you know. You know, say that surround the Moon. So Swan then encounters something that makes him kind of stop and think. When he moves his consciousness into one specific crater, he finds himself surrounded by, like, this greenish, like, haze, like a fog, almost like, you know, like a. Something that you would see, almost like in, like, a. Like a spooky movie, I think. It's just weird. He's just, like, in this crater, and he's seeing, like, this fog, and then somewhere within the haze, there's, like, this thing generating light that's casting light, like a green light across this whole fog. And this is. At this point, he's just like, what? Where am I? He's like, am I even on the Moon right now? This makes no sense. Like, why am I looking at this? And this is where things take a turn for the weird. Swan notes, according to his own book, that the light he was seeing was diffused rather than sharp and, you know, harsh lighting. You would expect, like, on the moon, right? And in this sort of airless, atmosphereless world, the light travels in straight lines with no scattering, which creates a major difference between bright areas and these deep shadows. But diffused light requires an atmosphere to actually, like, scatter the photons and, like, soften it, right? So if Swan was seeing diffuse light on the Moon, something was scattering the light. This wasn't making any sense to him. So he starts moving closer to investigate the light. And he describes seeing what looked like, like a, like an airport or something. And like, not like a natural formation, but like clearly like artificial structures that reminded him of like these, like landing strips and like, almost like a military base. He saw these large buildings that look like aircraft hangars and roads and connecting different areas and different towers of different heights and like heavy machinery. And it didn't make any sense to him what he was looking at. But he continued his remote viewing of the area, and he found that this wasn't just like an isolated installation. There were roads that appeared to be connected to bridges spanning between craters and connecting different parts of what seemed to be this extensive infrastructure network. And throughout this massive complex that he's now observing, he says that he saw evidence of industrial activity. Cuts into the rock faces that were perfectly round, that looked like they had been drilled by giant earth moving equipment and machinery. And these weren't natural caves or craters. They were just precisely engineered excavations that suggested that someone was mining or taking materials from the surface of the moon. This whole thing, even for Ingo Swann, was pretty strange. And so when he moves to a different set of coordinates, Swan encountered structures that were emitting different colors of lights. And these lights weren't like the usual harsh single colors that you would expect from like machines. They almost had like this organic feeling shifting between colors that seemed to serve like almost a communication or like operational purpose. But some of the strangest structures were a series of these dome shaped buildings that appeared to have windows. And he sees these windows, and he goes towards the windows like his consciousness is now moving towards him. And despite all the darkness on the moon, Swan could see what he described as a fine mist inside the structures, along with that same sort of green, kind of like light emitting through it. And remember, Swan had been trained to observe and report without embellishment. And his success in all of his previous experiments had come from this exact ability to just basically be like, this is what I saw, this is what happened, done verifiable details rather than like vague impressions. So when he reported seeing windows and atmospheric effects inside these lunar structures, he was describing these things, you know, according to him, as precisely as he could. But what he saw next would fundamentally change the limits of any type of scientific credibility. He looks more closely at the windows and starts to actually look into the windows. And as he's like basically right up to the window with his consciousness looking inside this thing on the moon, which again, I know sounds crazy, but this is what he says, he starts to make out these human type beings moving around inside. And he described them as looking almost human, but not exactly like. Their basic proportions and like their movements were generally human. But he couldn't make out exactly what they were or what they were doing through the window. But what he could see was that there was an area of, like, high activity. These beings, or whatever they were, were very busy, and they were doing some type of work or operation. And Swan characterized the overall scene as an active, like, research facility or something, with beings moving purposefully between different areas, operating equipment, and engaging what looked like coordinated activities. And this wasn't like a dead installation or like an outpost. Whatever was happening was happening right now. And Swan continued to observe, trying to gather as many details as possible for his report. And something that he saw sent a chill through the entire facility, not only on the Moon, but back in America as well. The beings all of a sudden just stopped what they were doing, and they turned toward the window where Swan was viewing them from, and they just became aware that he. He was there. They immediately became aware that they were being watched by something or someone, and they just stopped. And Swan immediately felt like a wave of nervousness wash over him. This has never happened to him before in his viewing experience, that he's viewing something that then views him back. And these beings weren't just randomly looking in his direction. They were aware of him, even though he was hundreds of thousands of miles away on Earth, but he knew that they were observing him, and he was observing them. So then he tells Axlerod, the guy that's actually conducting the experiment that's sitting in the room with him physically, he says to him, they see me. And Axelrod instantly tells Swan, come back. But the situation kind of continues to escalate. Swan watched as more beings gathered in the windows, and they began doing something horrifying. They started to point at him right through the window in which Swan was watching them with his consciousness, and they knew exactly where he was, even though his physical body was sitting in a chair at a secret facility on Earth. Axelrod vehemently tells Swan, get out of there. Come back. And the urgency in his voice suggested that this wasn't just like, you know, he wasn't. It wasn't like he didn't know what was happening. This didn't seem like an unexpected development. It was legit. This was dangerous. Whatever protocol existed for this type of remote viewing mission, Swan had apparently triggered some kind of security concern that required immediate action. So Swan forces consciousness to disengage. And just like that, he's back in the chair, and he's slowly opening his eyes and readjusting to his physical surroundings, kind of looking around. And he finds Axelrod looking at him with this expression of, like, concern that kind of was like, what did you just see? But also confirmation that, you know, that he had already encountered something that he sort of expected. And Swan basically turned Axelrod and just asked him, you already know they're psychic, don't you? And Axelrod basically just looked back at him and said, that's all for today. Get some rest. So Ango goes to sleep, and the whole time he's just thinking, like, what did I just see? Like, what was that? Was that, like, a test? Do they dose me with drugs? Was I on lsd? Like, what just happened? And, like, what kind of beings would sense that they were being observed from hundreds of thousand miles away? You know, was it possible that the US Intelligence agencies, like, came across something that was more complicated or interdimensional? And if Swan's observations are correct, it suggests that there's, you know, some type of active extraterrestrial presence, which is just insane, right? Like, not only just like, that, you know, type of claim, but the idea that these things were also psychic, or maybe this was a different timeline or who knows what exactly happened. But this is, according to Ingo Swann, what he wrote down and what he saw. So, you know, for an agency like the CIA, which relies on gathering intelligence without being noticed, this poses an interesting challenge. They aren't just facing the possibility of extraterrestrial life. They're facing the possibility of extraterrestrials that could also watch them back. So he basically concludes his research with this government agency and he gets discharged. And that's basically the end of his time doing these types of experiments. But things from here get a little stranger. After about six months from returning from this facility, Swan tries to go back to his regular routine. But the experience fundamentally has changed him. He'd never seen anything like that through any of his other psychic trials or, you know, lab research studies or anything like that. So he keeps his word about his secrecy, but the knowledge kind of weighs on him. And apparently his involvement with the government remote viewing program made him a person of interest to more than just American intelligence agencies. The next chapter of the story begins on just an ordinary day. He's doing something completely mundane. He's just grocery shopping, and he was walking through a supermarket probably, you know, trying to make food and, you know, grab some stuff. And all of a sudden, he sees a woman in the grocery store that he says is just beautiful. Like, he describes her as, like, she's extra. Extraordinarily attractive. We're talking about something that would, like, just like, a supermodel. And she's wearing, like, a very revealing outfit, like a bikini top and, like, short shorts. And, you know, he says that she's in, like, high heels walking through the grocery store just trying to stun on these motherfuckers, you know? So under normal circumstances, Swan probably would have appreciated, you know, just a beautiful woman and just kind of moved on. But he said that the encounter felt different. That as he was looking at her, he experienced what he described as, like, this deep sensation that this woman was, you know, something different, and that she was kind of looking back at him. And it just all felt very strange to him in that moment. And, you know, this guy, you got to think he gets A call at 3am Goes to this secret government facility, starts viewing the moon, and now this beautiful woman's, like, walking past him, and he's getting, like, weird vibes from her. So what makes this interesting is that as Swan is processing these feelings about seeing this woman, and she's kind of looking at him, and he's looking at her, and they have, like, this weird chemistry. And then she just kind of keeps walking. He turns around and sees two men that he had seen before. It is the two twins that had originally given him the cards when he was at, you know, the D.C. museum of Natural History. And they're just standing there inside the grocery store. And suddenly, this is no longer just about, like, an attractive woman that he sees at the supermarket. This is about surveillance. He's being watched. And the possibility that his involvement with this government psychic research puts him on someone else's radar. So he panics and kind of leaves the store. But as he's driving home, the weight of what just happened is starting to sink in. And he's like, am I being followed everywhere? Am I being watched all the time? Is the government still monitoring everything I do, even though the mission is over? And more importantly, their interest in his interaction with that specific woman suggested that there was, you know, something about her that concerned them. That evening, Swann's phone rings, and he's instructed to fly to New York immediately and be at Grand Central Station the next morning to wait for contact. The same mysterious sort of no questions asked communication thing that he had gotten before happens again. So what does he do? He shows up, and when he arrives at Grand Central, he spotted one of the twins standing near a payphone the man gestured for him to come over. And as soon as Swan gets close, the phone rings and it's Mr. Axelrod. So immediately, Axelrod starts to question Swann about his encounter with the woman. He wanted to know everything. Had, had you seen her before? Did she notice him? Did he approach her? Did. Did he try to make contact? And whether, like, he had been followed by her, what the relationship between them was. And the intensity of Axelrod's questioning made it clear that this wasn't just casual curiosity. The government was genuinely concerned about this woman, who she was and why Swan and her were passing each other in any capacity. And at first, Axelrod was suspicious of Swan pressing him on whether he knew her or if she might have been targeting him on purpose. But when Swan firmly said that, I've never seen her before, I don't know who she is, his tone changed from suspicious to protective. And he basically just tells Swan, if you ever see her again, don't talk to her, don't approach her, avoid her at all costs. And during the same phone conversation, Axelrod and Swann talk about remote viewing and how things are going with his personal progress in the remote viewing, you know, in his passion, basically. And Swan tells him that he's getting close to, like, about, like, 65% accuracy, but he's not there just yet. And then Axelrod gives him specific instructions. He says, when your accurate, when your accuracy reaches 65%, he should write the number 65 on a piece of paper, leave it on his desk and tell nobody and that they would be in touch. So for about a year, Swan focuses on improving his remote viewing skills while trying to process everything that had been happening, from, you know, the moon mission to being stocked in this grocery store. And he's practicing and refining his techniques, and then gradually he's improving his accuracy. And when he finally achieves the 65% threshold, he follows the instructions. He writes 65 on a slip of paper, places it on his desk before going home for the night. That next morning, Swann discovered something that reinforced just how thoroughly he was being monitored, or perhaps remote viewed. Despite the fact that his office was locked and no one knew the access code, the note was gone. In its place was a light dusting of what looked like powder. And written in the powder were basically two words that said, expect, contact. Someone had not only entered the locked office without triggering any alarms or signs of, like, forced entry or anything like that, but they'd also left a message using a method that seemed to remind Swan that these people had capabilities Far beyond, like normal surveillance. What's up guys? I'm on the road. That's right. I'm going to Chandler, Arizona, San Diego, California, Burlington, Vermont, Montreal, Toronto, Detroit and a bunch of other dates that I will be adding to my website, markagnon live.com I would love to see you guys there. Obviously, if you don't know, I'm a standup comedian and stand up comedy is my passion. It's the thing I love to do and seeing you guys all come out to the shows truly makes my life. I hang out after the show and say what's up to everybody. So if you want to come through, check out the show, say what's up to me. It would mean the world. You can see me at all these dates and more on my website, markagnon live.com and I'll see you guys on the road. What's up guys? We're going to take a break really quick because we got merch. If you don't know. We got Camp Research and development merchandise. You can see it right here. Also, my buddy Andrew Schultz was actually just out hanging with his fam, having a good old time. All of a sudden a dude walks up to me, goes, yo, what's up Schultzie? And guess what? He was wearing this shirt right here. So shout out to that legend, whoever you are, you're the man. I appreciate that. And if you want to cop your very own camp threads, go to camp-rd.com we're dropping all sorts of new gear. You can see some of the images here of some of the products that we got. And anytime you buy a T shirt, you help this show directly operate. It is a huge, huge lift and I'm very grateful for everyone that reps the gear, especially at the live shows. Seeing you guys wearing the T shirts at the shows truly makes my life. It's the coolest thing ever. I cannot believe people are actually wearing clothes that me and my friends are designing and sending imessage chats like, yo, you think this is cool? It's the craziest thing in the world and I'm so grateful for everyone that does it. Check it out. We got the link in the description. Now let's get back to the show. On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your Personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this, Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treatment. Start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial@greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify so a few days later, contact comes in the most casual way possible. Swan was heading to the university cafeteria for lunch when Mr. Axelrod simply appeared and just walked up to him as if they were like old buddies and basically just said, can you get away for three or four days? When Swan says yes and asked where they were going, Mr. Axlerod just kind of smiled and asked a question that must have sent Swan's mind racing. He basically just looks at him and says, have you ever seen a ufo? It wasn't just like a question, it was the way he asked it, sort of like casual but loaded. It's as if whatever they were about to do wasn't just strange, it was something that would change Swann's understanding of reality again. So they flew north for a few hours on a private jet. And based on the flight time and directions, Swann wrote in his book that he assumed that they had landed somewhere, maybe in like, Alaska. And it was in the middle of the night when they arrived and the landscape was dark and cold and completely desolate. So Swan, Axelrod and the two twins, the, you know, the two sort of intelligence type guys that he had met before, they climbed into an unmarked van. Swan was given a thermal jumpsuit to protect him from the cold and was asked to remove anything metal that he was carrying, like watches, a belt buckle, anything that might interfere with sensitive equipment or create some type of electromagnetic signature. And they drove for two hours through the mountains and through the roads all along the mountains that seemed designed to disorient anyone trying to track them. And finally they stopped under a cluster of pine trees that appeared to be a remote lake. Axelrod emphasized that absolute silence was critical for their safety and it would be a 45 minute hike to their observation point. And they couldn't talk or make any noise whatsoever during the journey. The twins were equipped with what appeared to be like night Vision goggles. And while Swan had nothing and could barely see a few feet in front of him in the darkness, they had finally reached their destination. At the edge of the lake, Axlerod whispered final instructions to Swan. He should observe everything that happens, but he must remain completely silent and as motionless as possible. Swan wrote that Axelrod warned him about them, which are beings or forces that could detect these disturbances really easily. When Swan asked who they are, Axelrod simply just put his finger to his lips and just was like, yo, fucking be quiet. So the four men settled in position overlooking the lake, and they waited. And for a long time, nothing happens. Then one of the twins makes a subtle hand gesture, and Axelrod let them know that it was starting. At first, Swan didn't see anything unusual. There was some fog on the lake, which wasn't particularly remarkable given that the temperature between the water and the cold air was stark. But he continued to watch. And the fog began to change. And instead of this normal, grayish mist, the fog started emitting its own light. First, it glowed with what Swan described as like, this neon blue, and then it changed to what he called angry purple. Then something emerged from the water that had defied every expectation Swan might have had about what they were about to observe. He writes in his book that it was like a triangular craft approximately 90ft wide, and it comes directly out of the lake. And it wasn't just sitting on the surface like a boat. It was actually emerging from beneath the water as if it had been submerged. And the craft emitted a low, pulsing hum that Swan said that he could, like, feel just as much as he could hear it. And as the craft stabilized above the water, beams of light suddenly shot out from various points on its surface. These weren't searchlights or navigation beacons. They were focused energy beams that struck specific locations around the lake with what appeared to be, like, deliberate targeting. And the men decided that they needed to get out of there, and they just moved in time because one of those beams struck the exact area that they had been sitting in moments before. Swan heard, like, a loud crack, like, almost like thunder or something, and then feels like goosebumps, you know, almost from, like, this, like, electromagnetic discharge. So whatever those beams were, according to Swan, they packed enough energy to basically damage anything in the path. But the most remarkable part of this encounter was still to come. As Swan looked at the craft while they moved to their new position, he witnessed something that would violate basically everything that he thought he knew about physics. Water from the lake was being pulled upward into the craft. Basically, what he described as like a reverse waterfall, almost as if, like, the craft was somehow, like, extracting the lake water for some purpose. And the entire counter, he Sundays, lasted like 15 or 20 minutes, though he claims that time seemed kind of distorted during the event, and he's not exactly sure how long it was. Then, as suddenly as it had appeared, the craft descended back into the lake and disappeared beneath the surface. On the drive back to the airport, everyone remained completely silent. Swann stared out the window, trying to process what it was that he had witnessed and try to fit it into some type of logical framework. And as the sun began to rise, they arrived at the airfield. Swann finally broke the silence. And he says, I think I know what's going on. Axelrod encouraged him. Go ahead, continue. And Swann basically said that he believed that it was an unmanned drone on a resupply mission, that they're, you know, mining on the moon and they need our water for some reason. It was the first time Swann began to connect the dots between his remote viewing of the moon and the unfolding of this UFO encounter. If there really was industrial activity taking place on the, you know, surface of the moon, as he had reported, then those operations wouldn't just appear out of nowhere. They would need supplies. And one of the most essential resources for any type of ongoing operation, especially in some type of hostile terrain, would be water. Axelrod kind of, like, smiled, according to Swann. And of course, neither confirmed or rejected the theory. He simply just shook Swan's hand and said, hey, thanks so much for your service. Thanks for coming out, and then gestured back to the plane. Swann would end up flying back alone. And as it turned out, he would never see Mr. Axelrod or the twins ever again. But the implications of everything that he'd experienced, from the moon to this mysterious woman, now to the ufo, would stay with him for the rest of his life. Because if his conclusions are correct, it would mean that Earth is not only being visited by extraterrestrial beings, that these beings were actively harvesting our planet and our resources to support some type of large scale operation. And the fact that our own government actually seemed to be aware of this and was keeping it classified at the highest levels, raised a lot of questions about what else they might know or, you know, why this wasn't being publicly available. So Ingo Swann ended up living, you know, a long life and continued to do this type of research and eventually published a book that kind of shook the paranormal parapsychological world. And he ended up dying in 2013 but he definitely left a story that lasted a very long time. And you're probably thinking the same thing as everyone else. How much of it can we actually believe, right? I mean, we're talking about a psychic spy and alien industrial bases and the UFO harvest. It's just like it's a movie. It's just like it's insane. And it sounds like, you know, this guy maybe made it up or maybe he embellished. But here's the thing that makes Swan's story a little different from, you know, typical alien abduction. So there's a couple elements of this that can be externally verified. So, for example, the foundations of the whole story, Swann's work with the CIA. This isn't some unsubstantiated claim that we have to take on faith. The CIA documents later came out that confirmed that Swann participated in their remote viewing programs. And you can read them for yourself just on the CIA's website. Search for information about the Stargate project and you'll find hundreds of pages of declassified documents that detail their decade long investigation into psychic phenomena and remote viewing. And these documents don't just mention Swan in passing. They contain detailed reports of his sessions and evaluations of his accuracy and assessments of his value as an intelligence asset. And this wasn't some fringe operation tucked away in a basement. This. The CIA spent serious money trying to develop these psychic espionage abilities. Now, the existence of these programs doesn't prove that remote viewing actually works, but it does prove that our government thought that it might work and that they could invest some type of resources into testing it. And it definitely proves that Swann was involved at the highest levels of these types of classified programs. And then there's the Jupiter thing, which remains one of the most compelling pieces of evidence around Swann ever. Right? I mean, he described rings around Jupiter in 73 that no one had ever seen and wouldn't be confirmed by the probes from 73 or 74 and then got confirmed six years later by Voyager 1 when they photographed the ring system that Swan had accurately described. I mean, that goes beyond a lucky guess. Personally, I don't even know what to make of that. That's pretty strange. And the people who work directly with Swan also provide compelling testimonies about his credibility. You know, they weren't gullible believers in psychic phenomena. They are scientists, intelligence professionals and researchers who had every reason to be skeptical about these types of claims and get people out of the program and stop paying them money. Yet everyone who worked with Swan came away convinced that, you know, he was genuinely experiencing something unusual that was difficult to explain. But not every part of Swann's story holds up to the same level of scrutiny. So the mysterious woman in the supermarket, for example. Swan's immediate assumption was that this was some type of extraterrestrial woman in, like, a human skin vessel. And even by the standards of his other experiences, that one is pretty strange. There's a much more logical explanation, given the historical context, that it was likely that she was a Soviet spy. Remember, this is the 70s, right in the middle of the Cold War. The United States and the Soviet Union are engaged in what you could accurately call this psychic arms race, right? Both sides are trying to develop any type of intelligence edge, any type of abilities that the other side doesn't have. And that includes these paranormal intelligence, you know, operations. And we know from declassified documents that the Soviets had their own remote viewing programs and that both countries were actively trying to penetrate each other's operations. So the fact that Swan was under surveillance by American intelligence then, you know, and that they specifically warned him about this woman suggests that she represents some type of security threat, probably a Soviet honeypot, basically a beautiful woman that tries to get close to America's most successful, you know, spies or intelligence assets and tries to basically get some type of information from him. The UFO encounter on the lake is another part of the story that raises a lot of red flags. I mean, the whole thing is just insane and convenient. Axelrod knew exactly when the craft would appear. And if the goal was simply to have Swan observe and verify the existence, why couldn't they have just done that through remote viewing? After all, he could look at Jupiter like he could probably reach Alaska. And the fact that they had to physically transport him to the location that everything unfolded as expected suggests that this might have been some type of demonstration or something, rather than a genuine UFO encounter. Maybe they were testing experimental military tech and they wanted to see how he would interpret it. Or maybe they were testing Swan himself to see how it would react to this type of strange encounter. And then you have the moon observations, which are probably the most difficult to evaluate because they can't be just verified independently. Right? NASA controls what photographs of the moon they've released to the public, and they've been notoriously silent about anything that would be considered, you know, anomalous or high strangeness. But we do have reports from other remote viewers who participated in similar programs. And their descriptions of lunar activity are weirdly consistent with Swann's observations. But consistency amongst people who are all part of the same program doesn't actually prove accuracy. It could just prove that maybe they're all being primed in some way that's, you know, consistent. Or maybe they've heard, you know, Ingo's story, and maybe they're just retelling what they had heard from him. And here is where we get the fundamental question that determines how you interpret everything else. I mean, do you believe that remote viewing is possible? If you don't, then of course, none of his claims about what he saw anywhere could be taken seriously. And that perhaps he was led on by these researchers. And maybe he guessed a lucky answer. Maybe he was really smart and intuitive and read some books or talked to some really successful astronomers and was able to guess the rings on Jupiter. Who knows? But he just has a vivid imagination and ability for bullshitting, maybe so good that he didn't know that he was lying to himself. But if you believe that remote viewing is potentially possible, then his observations are completely different, right? If remote viewing is possible and if he was somewhat accurate, then what was it that he saw? Maybe his handlers gave him coordinates for a different place. Maybe they sent him to a film set. Maybe they sent him to a soundstage in, you know, California where they were doing some type of strange, you know, testing to see if he could actually see something and how he would interpret it. Maybe they sent them to the moon and there's, you know, aliens building stuff just a few hundred thousand miles away on the other side of this tiny little space rock. Whatever these programs were actually doing or why they were doing them is still a matter of debate. You know, but the fact that they existed and that they operate at the highest levels of classification suggests that someone in positions of significant authority thought that they were getting some type of result. And according to Ingo Swann, we are definitely not alone in the universe. He says for a fact that not only are we not alone, but according to Swan, these extraterrestrial beings are actively operating large scale industrial facilities, and they're actually coming to Earth. So whether you believe that or not probably depends on how much you believe in human consciousness. And can it transcend the normal limitations of space and time? And do you even believe that aliens exist at all? But either way, Ingo Swann's story forces us to kind of think about these uncomfortable things, right? Like, what is the government telling us and what do they want us to know? Why are they doing these operations? What is the point of them? Because even if just a fraction of what Swan reported is True. It means that a lot of the official narrative about, you know, our government and, you know, the way that the CIA operates and humanity and our understanding of the universe is fundamentally incomplete. And that's a possibility that I think deserves some real consideration, regardless of how strange the story might sound. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the life and work of Ingo Swann. I mean, truly fascinating. I don't know what to make of it. I mean, as far as, like, let's go back to the beginning, right? Like, let's think the. The ESP thing. Right? Okay. He's got these psychic abilities, having these dreams. They're tough to verify, but maybe people have. Again, I'm not someone that's going to be like, yes, no, I have no certainty. These have never happened to me. I've never seen them. I don't even know anyone that this has ever, you know, that has ever had things like this. Actually, I take that back. I've talked to a few people that have had, you know, precognitive dreams and stuff. Is it possible? Maybe. Is it testable, verifiable? Probably not. Again, I don't know. But he comes from a family where the mom apparently had these types of gifts, and so they're open to it. Maybe they nurture it. Maybe they nurture it too much. Who knows? He practices these things on his own again, goes into a tight, controlled testing facility at Stanford, predicts the rings of Jupiter. I mean, that's pretty outrageous to me. Could you Google and see is there a debunking on the Jupiter thing specifically? Because I'd read a few different things that, oh, a lot of the stuff that he talked about could be intuited. You could be like, oh, the color of the gas and the clouds and the storms. It's like, yeah, people already knew that, even if they never visually seen it with a probe. So I guess the thing with, like, the rings that's interesting is like, you know, he doesn't give, like, scientifically testable, you know, pieces of data, right? Because I guess if you're just looking at it, you're not going to be like, oh, it was 120,000 miles away from the surface of Jupiter. He was basically like, yeah, I see, like, this sort of crystal ring around it, which, again, no one had ever seen. People had speculated. He goes on a limb, puts his whole career on the line in front of the Stanford researcher, says, I think there's a ring, than there is six years later. I don't know. Is it too vague? Is it accurate? Seems Accurate enough for me. It doesn't hold up to scientific, you know, scrutiny. Probably not, but I still think it's pretty fascinating that a guy can, you know, apparently look at a Jupiter and be like, yeah, I know there's a ring. And then as far as, like, the moon stuff, I'm like, I wonder if the government is, like, trying to test this and see if it's legit, why they would send him to go look at a craft coming out of the water in Alaska. That seems kind of like a stretch for me. Like, why would you send, like, a remote viewer to, like, go with you to go view this thing? It seemed like they were testing him more than they were trying to get insight. Like, they just wanted to see how he reacted or what he thought of this. Or maybe they were trying to, like, show him, like, some military tech, and they weren't sure if he was gonna, like, keep his mouth shut. And so they were like, oh, we're gonna do this testing with him. That's legit. Where we're trying to figure out if remote viewing is possible. And then we're also gonna show him some crazy military tech and say that it's aliens and just kind of freak him out. And then when he comes forward with this whole story, people are gonna write him off like a quack. Right? That's possible. And then the woman in the story, that seems like, obviously a Soviet honeypot, but the fact that he thought that she was an alien kind of proves to me that he's kind of out in left field a little, talking about aliens a little too much. I don't know. That's kind of. That's kind of my takeaway. I also wonder, like, I think the remote viewing thing personally, is that, you know, you're in a Cold War time. The US Government's trying to figure out any way to get an edge on the Soviets. They hear about these people that apparently have these psychic abilities. Stanford's doing some research, and let's say the US Government goes, okay, we'll allocate a million dollars to this research to see if anything comes from it. This, to me, is what you would call low cost, high impact. And you're like, dude, how is a million dollars low cost? The U.S. defense budget, a million dollars is like literally 0.0000001%. I mean, it's nothing. But you could operate, like, a little research lab for a million bucks and get some people that claim to be clairvoyance and see if they can do anything. And if you can do that. That's basically like putting all your money on Bitcoin in 2012, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you bought in pretty low and the impact is super high. So in the event that this guy actually has some type of remote viewing capabilities, it's like, yeah, let's just pay him a million bucks a year and gain insane intelligence secrets. So they eventually disbanded Project Stargate, saying that nothing substantial ever came from it. I don't know. I'm kind of skeptical. I feel like these types of programs just sort of change names and they sort of shift around. They say they scrapped MK Ultra. They're probably still doing some version of that. What the reason of this testing was, I feel like, is less about aliens harvesting on the moon, more about how does this guy within the community feel about this and how is this going to, like, change narratives and stuff? Like, how are we going to control how people respond to this? Like, if this guy comes out, is he gonna like, whistleblow? Are we able to, like, shape how people view, you know, aliens and Soviet stuff? Are we able to control the conversation a little? That's. I don't know exactly. I'm being vague, but that's kind of my. My general feeling, but I don't know. Christius, what do you think? I think we're bearing the lead as far as his book being called Penetration and there being a Lady in Red, but that's just me. I mean, that is. That is hoth. I completely agree. What do you guys think? I mean, drop a comment in the. In below. If you've never heard of Ingo Swan, what does the story make you feel like? What does it make you think? And if you have heard of them, maybe you've researched them much more than I have. I would love to know what you think. What do you think about remote viewing? Are there other people that have done, you know, remote viewing projects like this under the same type of scientific scrutiny that can be verified? You know, I would love to. I would love to read more about these people. I genuinely don't know what to think about remote viewing. Like, part of me is like, it seems crazy. It seems like if it's possible, it absolutely would have already been like scientifically verified. And you could just like, Google someone that does it all the time. Like maybe that already exists. Maybe I need to get deeper in my bag and get more on revote viewing. I don't know. But on the other hand, I'm like, I just. I don't discount stuff like this. That, you know, the government actively puts money into. Seems like there might be something there. There's a non zero chance, you know, that there's potentially something going on. But I don't know. I'd love to know what you guys think. Please drop a comment. And as always, this has been an episode of camp. Thank you guys so much for joining me in my tent and I'll see you guys next week for more stories. Deep diving down the rabbit hole of the strange, bizarre and unexplainable from all time, from all places, from all worlds ever. See you guys then Peace. If you've made it to the end of this episode, you are clearly someone who understands that beneath every historical event lies a deeper truth waiting to be uncovered. You're the type of person who knows that real history is more fascinating than any fiction, and we deeply appreciate that about you. I'll be honest, that's exactly why I personally invite you to sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter that goes beyond the surface of historical events. 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